Newbie 1881 - Game Over

[OkaPoka]

imo town wants to engage to develop reads on people while scum doesn't care about developing reads they just want to let others engage and argue while avoiding attention.

[Quick]

imo town wants to engage to develop reads on people while scum doesn't care about developing reads they just want to let others engage and argue while avoiding attention.

That's true, but also kinda basic. Why are you saying this/what are you addressing?

[OkaPoka]

eragon was asking about not being proactive being a scumtell

i think it is and that was my explanation as for why

[Eragon]

Spoiler:

I always feel like I come across as scum when I just sheep

Are you talking about this game or in general

In general. I feel sheeping can be lazy and is anti-town at best and scummy at worst. I feel like if I'm voting or someone else is voting they should always give a contributive reason. Never vote because someone else voted that way.

it depends. sheeping for no reason could be wolfy, but if your sheeping because someone "convinced" you or you agree with the points, than I think its fine

The votes moved from FF to Flicker and who FF and Flicker are voting for.

FF might have gotten caught early and then talked his way out of things. That said, I have known him to be lynchbait, but a really good player, so I have a Null read on that dynamic of the game, however, because both Flicker and FF are voting the same person who seems to have produced a wagon out of nowhere seems pretty suspect to me.

Also, Nacy's post on this page seem to have Town tone and I know Nancy to be a pretty good Town player and they are voting for Flicker. I need to look into Stan1ey's progression and vote on Flicker more, but that is where I am at atm.

I feel like you didn't really read the thread at all and just skimmed. That's kind of scummy. Everyone knew/agreed that the wagon on FF was RVS.

well, ye. Quick announced they weren't gonna read the thread. I consider it NAI.

Soo....... I feel like OKa is a bad or scum. Not sure which.

I also think Trinity is town. She's new and clunky but, I've played a few games with her and nothing seems scummy so far. I've seen her play scum and.... well you'd know.

I really want to vote quick and get quick lynched. To me only scum would come in and throw up their hands and say I'm not reading anything. Here's a vote count. Here's my reads. Don't worry those cause my reads are garbage because I didn't actually read anything. If town came in and refused to read the game they wouldn't then turn around and give reads.

I also think Oka is pushing mis-lynches. Trying to snag the easiest ones. Weird that he's not jumping on Quick as that seems the easiest to me at the moment.

trinity-trinity is new? I thought I heard people saying they've played with trinity for some time...(correct me if im wrong), also, yuck meta
town could easily slack off and not read the thread and not give reads, its NAI at best

I think I'm a bit lost at the moment. I've lost my town read on Nancy..... Please Nancy come back to town. I wanna believe. She seems to have just faded a bit and is just poking holes in everything. Not necessarily a bad thing but, doesn't seem like the way things started at first.

Trinity, Go take a look at some of FFs other games. His play this game seems exactly like his town play. I'll go looking for one of his scum games and compare though because I've only played with town!FF.

Quick, I'm not sure what to ask you..... Have your reads changed? Not sure if the answer is worth it.

Oka, I don't mean to restate this but, you really seem to be looking for the easiest lynches instead of looking for scum. I don't like it. Also, what do you think about quick?

FF, do you think that Oka is a better lynch then Quick and why?

lol. Nancy is the most active player

meta!yuck


Im not really liking Iceman's tunnel on Quick for the pure reason of not reading thread....

Rip.

Well any way at all that you're able to articulate the reads would be helpful I guess. Kinda feel like if I can get a handle on FF and Trinity then the game is pretty much solved, so I could use as much input as possible even if it's horrible evil meta stuff. And if you're able to talk about them in a way that isn't meta then even better. We can talk more later as well when I go over my own reads on them.

Am sleeping now, goodnight!

agree with this

yeah this is def a stunt i'd pulled only to be forced to reread the game later
question is will quick actually reread the game

@quick how much do you stick to your morals

Not very well, unfortunately, because I have zero self-disipline.

well does that mean you will go back on your word saying you wont catch up if you become a viable lynch?

uh trinity's recent post don't seem to disprove my theory tho

Lmao this is certainly a wording

trinity's recent postings do not seem to disprove my theory that trinity is not being proactive and trying to actively engage with others*

Nancy, in this posts oka said I’m not being proactive and I’m not trying to engage with others. I don’t think this is true.

you think you are being real proactive in engaging with others?
alright i guess ill do a bigish post
9 answering nancy's rqs questions
10 making a jokey comment
11 rvs vote
44 another rvs vote that put ff at l2 which will be clarified later
62 trinity responds to nancy about rvs stuff
63 "I liked it"
64 more rvs things
67 maybe proactive? just seems to be a side comment
69 clarifying 67 - prompted by nancy
71 clarifying 67 - prompted by nancy
100 prompted by nancy
101 want clarification from nancy on reads
117 explaining why she has no scumreads, promises to do more investigating later
118 thanking nancy for explaining
119 clarifying when prompted by nancy
121 answering my questions
264 explaining why she doesn't believe l-2 to be a big deal
288 catching up post
293 i made a post! trinity says im scummy for thinking she is scummy and im looking for excuses to vote her but i mean yeah that's mafia, asks why ff would hate me for voting me, i clarify later, i guess it's proactive? but she is also just engaging a person who is voting her so it's more reactive.
294 double post
297 time zones
299 reads, does something semi-proactive which is making her rvs vote her permanent your sus vote. decent post i like it
301 fluff
302 fluff
307 fluff
308 answering questions
382 showing solidarity for someone who might vote ff
387 "proactive" question after i claim that she hasn't been proactive
391 clarifying her question
393 meh
395 clarifying her position when prompted by nancy
399 clarifying her position when prompted by nancy

has very few moments of proactive town moments, most of her posts are either fluff or reacting to other questions which is i guess is kinda normal. but the only real proactive/unique thing she has done is mark Formerfish as possible scum, but she has yet to really follow up on that and engage with formerfish. maybe if she builds a more solid case against ff and responds to some of the points ff makes in response to nancy's case and takes a more active stance in challenging FF ill move off this but for now I see this as scum who is sitting back and not wanting to heavily engage with people so the spotlight isn't on her.

Wow! Nice work. For me, that is being proactive and engaging with the game.

You can throw heat on me if you want, I’m sure the real scum are loving it that the pressure is on someone else.

I’m waiting for FF to reply to me about his game playing being less aggressive than normal.

I like some of Iceman’s recent comments about Oka’s motivation. And love the ‘Nancy please come back to town’ comment.

I think you’re being a bit hard on quick though. It’s not easy coming into a game part-way through. I’ve done it on another game. He looked to me like he was trying at least.

I dont like the bolded sentence.
Im getting pretty bad vibes off of it.
also oka isnt being hard on quick???

Soo....... I feel like OKa is a bad or scum. Not sure which.

I also think Trinity is town. She's new and clunky but, I've played a few games with her and nothing seems scummy so far. I've seen her play scum and.... well you'd know.

I really want to vote quick and get quick lynched. To me only scum would come in and throw up their hands and say I'm not reading anything. Here's a vote count. Here's my reads. Don't worry those cause my reads are garbage because I didn't actually read anything. If town came in and refused to read the game they wouldn't then turn around and give reads.

I also think Oka is pushing mis-lynches. Trying to snag the easiest ones. Weird that he's not jumping on Quick as that seems the easiest to me at the moment.

SRing me because I am not caught up is a horrible reason to SR someone. Like, seriously?

I think I'm a bit lost at the moment. I've lost my town read on Nancy..... Please Nancy come back to town. I wanna believe. She seems to have just faded a bit and is just poking holes in everything. Not necessarily a bad thing but, doesn't seem like the way things started at first.

Trinity, Go take a look at some of FFs other games. His play this game seems exactly like his town play. I'll go looking for one of his scum games and compare though because I've only played with town!FF.

Quick, I'm not sure what to ask you..... Have your reads changed? Not sure if the answer is worth it.

Oka, I don't mean to restate this but, you really seem to be looking for the easiest lynches instead of looking for scum. I don't like it. Also, what do you think about quick?

FF, do you think that Oka is a better lynch then Quick and why?

I am still developing reads. I probably will not get fully caught up and you saying that is Scummy is odd to me.

double yep

Rip.

Well any way at all that you're able to articulate the reads would be helpful I guess. Kinda feel like if I can get a handle on FF and Trinity then the game is pretty much solved, so I could use as much input as possible even if it's horrible evil meta stuff. And if you're able to talk about them in a way that isn't meta then even better. We can talk more later as well when I go over my own reads on them.

Am sleeping now, goodnight!

So if I look at just this game and ignore meta then.... I have to be honest in that I would struggle to place Trinity as town. I would put a scum lean on her either though. In isolation to this game she reads mostly neutral to me.

For FF looking at just this game I would say he's a town lean. Actively engaging, pushing people until he's satisfied, and giving clear reasoning behind his reads. This to me is town.

Adding in meta for both trinity and FF just gives them a bump into more towniness.

Is meta really that wrong to look at?

meta is normally pretty bad unless its an experienced player thats had 50 + games with the same meta.
and either way you should go off game-based reads

[Eragon]

sorry guys, I was sleeping, woke up early, and went to a golf tournament and am finally home.

I will be catching up but I saw someone say something about voting...


I will say this here and now, I am NOT a believer in pressure votes.
When I vote somebody it is because I have a strong belief they will flip scum.
yesterday, I felt like Oka and flicker were both scummy enough to warrant a vote, but me voting would've put them at L-2(iirc)
and I dont think L-2 is a good spot rn because it normally warrants a claim, and claiming this early into the game is bleh, and the game devolves into Neanderthals fighting over which claim people believe

Usually it's L-1 with an intent to hammer that necessitates a claim, not L-2. Where did you get that idea from anyway?

You are saying that you only vote with intent to lynch. How does changing your reads factor into that? AFAICT, playing without pressure votes is sub-optimal because like I just said, your reads are likely to change so if you are just voting to lynch then that takes away any kind of soft stance you might have on someone.

What is your read on Ice?

on my forum L-2 is always when people claim, and we dont have this "intent to Lynch" stuff.

if I vote someone, and my reads change, then I will change my vote.
I dont mean that I only place one vote a day, but when I place a vote, its because im a firm believer that the person im voting is scum.

About ice, im not liking his "IC PL" stuff or his scum read on you not reading the thread, so as with his read on Oka,
Noob!town or scum

[Eragon]

imo town wants to engage to develop reads on people while scum doesn't care about developing reads they just want to let others engage and argue while avoiding attention.

I agree thats its not a town tell, but I dont see not being proactive is a hard-scumtell either.

town isnt always proactive, just as scum isnt always not proactive.

I just dont find activity a good way to read someone

[IcemanCh]

is anyone else scumreading trinity? I feel a bit lonely. i know ice has made an indication.

In isolation to this game the best I could do so far is neutral. So far my scale is below.


Town - nancy Formerfish
Lean Town - Ergon
Nuetral - Trinity Flicker Stanley
Lean Scum - Oka
Scum - Quick

why aren't you voting tho

I did.... didn't I?

[IcemanCh]

I guess I hadn't voted.

VOTE: Quick

I'm putting my vote here for now. I don't like what's happened so far. I will change my opinion after Quick has made some solid reads/effort that is at least not anti-town.

[TrinityNZ]

Eragon, I meant Iceman was being hard on Quick.

[nancy]

So if I look at just this game and ignore meta then.... I have to be honest in that I would struggle to place Trinity as town. I would put a scum lean on her either though. In isolation to this game she reads mostly neutral to me.

For FF looking at just this game I would say he's a town lean. Actively engaging, pushing people until he's satisfied, and giving clear reasoning behind his reads. This to me is town.

Adding in meta for both trinity and FF just gives them a bump into more towniness.

Is meta really that wrong to look at?

Sort of.

Meta is basically a playstyle read, right? So when you're saying "X is town because meta", what you're really saying is that you recognize their playstyle. Maybe in past games, they had a certain playstyle as town, and a certain playstyle as scum, and there were very noticeable differences between the two. The thing is, playstyle is not a static thing that doesn't ever change. It changes from game to game, sometimes drastically and unpredictably. It depends on the playerlist and size of the game, the game mechanics, their role, the person's mood and life circumstances, what they learned in their last game, so many things that aren't related to alignment even a little bit.

So in order to say that you think someone is town because of meta, you need to have an extremely nuanced understanding of that person's playstyle, you have to really know them as a player, and somewhat as a person, too. The only way you can develop that kind of understanding is by playing with them a bunch, getting to know them really well, and figuring out where all the little pieces go in their special little puzzle of a brain. Unless you have that level of a relationship with them, it's really unwise to ever presume that you can get a read on their alignment just from their playstyle.

The way you should use meta is to find someone's baseline, and use that as a kind of springboard from which to read them. What level are they playing on? If they're inexperienced, or have a bad wolf game, then you're going to read into their play differently, and it's generally going to be easier to get a strong alignment read on them. If they're experienced, or have a good wolf game, the things you look for to figure out their alignment change, and you have go simultaneously deeper and broader.

Let me give you some examples.

There's a player on mafiascum called Creature. There's a really huge difference between the way he plays mafia and the way he plays town, and pretty much the only way to reliably read him is by understanding his meta, because his town game by itself can be really hard to get an alignment read from. When he's mafia, he's basically frozen all game and he posts less and less as the game progresses. When he's town, he tends to be pretty active and his activity can really get up there in the later stages of the game. So essentially the way you read him is by tracking his activity. Well, that's the lazy way to read him, anyway. And it's only reliable because he has hundreds of games and his meta hasn't changed for years.

And the thing is, having people like this in the game, who just only really play as one alignment, is really really terrible and contributes to toxic game meta, because at that point it's more a farce than a real mafia game of reading into mindset and motivation. Imagine a 13p game with 13 players who have that kind of meta. Run 10 games with those same 13 players and every time the lowposters are mafia and the active posters are town. That's not a real puzzle.

Another example, from a game on mafia universe where I was in a hydra. I was pushing on Dp101 for most of day 1, and Dp101 was mafia, but he was being defended by friends, who thought he was town. I dropped this case on him at EoD1:

Spoiler:

Going to try to summarize my thoughts on Dp101 here.

Felt like the incoherent way that he was orienting his play around his catchup posts was wolfy in a way that's hard to describe. When I read them I feel like he's posting them because he's aware he has to give thoughts, not because he's catching up and just wants to be talking about where he's at. You have posts like 1518 which just feels like wordvomiting and doesn't really express any kind of a solid stance.

And going through his ISO there's just almost no stances and I think if he were town he'd have things to say as he read but he doesn't.

When you get to his "caught up" post you've got two reads here that are very weak and feel incredibly awkward. His reasoning for momo being mafia is super stretchy and I struggle to believe that anyone could get a scumread in the way he's claiming to. His points on Big Boi make even less sense and he's again not really talked about why there's scum motivation in anything there. Whole post feels like casing a townie and a partner and voting the townie. Don't understand how these are the most important things he has to say about the game at this point.

Very little else from the slot, think the way he came into thread earlier and started looking for reasons to vote/not vote annulus then ended up with 2093 which was just posture hasn't felt like he's really interested in actually solving here. The readslist is eh, fairly easy stances and I think if he's a wolf here his play is oriented around catchup sprees, making big posts that look good, not really doing much in thread, not pushing things in any meaningful way, don't feel like he has stuff that he cares about very much and that feels wolfy to me.

Boquise, Alette, Cuthalion and Lissa, who were all very familiar with Dp101, and who were town, were arguing that Dp101 was town by meta. Cuthalion made these two posts about him:

Spoiler:

strongly disagree

lines up far more heavily with dp's village game, especially early on elements

there are a couple of worlds in which he could be a wolf here, but it's really not likely

it's a sort of

self-aware bumbliness/backtracking earlier on combined with the more straightforward posting near the end of the phase

plus the push on him at the end(lol)

he's near or at the top of my village list

wrt dp

it's

he's

villagery

um

i've pretty much thoroughly explained the read inasmuch as it exists (which is to a decent extent), i think that even on the off chance that he is a wolf here there's...

complaining about his lack of producing things/activity/wolfreading him for it is kinda

heavily suboptimal when at least he's providing plenty of thought-out and verbalized reads and actually trying to engage with the game moreso than cough over half of the game

i do think his play has been pretty villagery/in particular recently i did like the comment about alette being the "villageriest he'd ever seen her", which is a thought i absolutely had not long beforehand

and i think it's a good look to hear that from him here as well, combined with his earlier stuff

i think he'd try to... affect the game more as a wolf, too?

when/where possible

At which point I became really frustrated and made this post:

Spoiler:

So, let me get this straight. Dp's town meta and scum meta are so drastically different that he's automatically obviously town in his town games and obviously scum in his scum games, and he's done exactly nothing to try to change this despite it apparently being known by anyone who has played with him? Is that what you're telling me?

Because I can believe that kind of meta when it's the scumgame that's bad but if he loves playing scum so much I fail to see why he wouldn't level his play and try to put more effort into his village rands in order to make it less than instantly obvious that he is a wolf when he's a wolf, or if not that then throw in a slanking wolf rand now and then to make it not such a hard meta tell.

How many times have you played with Dp when he's been a wolf and when he's been a villager?

i do think his play has been pretty villagery/in particular recently i did like the comment about alette being the "villageriest he'd ever seen her", which is a thought i absolutely had not long beforehand

This reasoning isn't something I can follow at all? He was heavily scumreading Alette near deadline when everyone was scumreading Alette. He's now saying Alette is the villageriest he's ever seen her when everyone is calling her town? And this a reason for you to be townreading him??? What is he supposed to do, continue saying Alette is scummy?

Like, forgive me for being incredulous here.

Which Cuthalion responded to by properly towncasing Dp, and after reading this case I relented, backed off and respected the meta townread on Dp:
(I've snipped the Dp101 quotes because they were huge readwalls.)

Spoiler:

dp wolf game readlists: (diff games)

-snip-

-snip-

dp villa game readlists: (same game diff days)

-snip-

-snip-

this game:

-snip-

know this is a lot of words quoted but I'm going to talk about what I think it shows/means and I think you really only have to look at a few reads in each to at least... understand what I'm trying to say regardless of if you agree with it

think there's a distinct difference in the way dp thinks through things in the wolf games vs. the villa one + this one

wolf game thought processes are kinda surfacey, not sure i really like that word for it but it's largely, like, genericish. Generically Towny Process. it's kind of flat. he's saying reasonable nice-sounding things that like, make sense and stuff, but it's commentative and doesn't really indicate anything deeper being there. he's... saying things about their posting, but not really actually working on figuring out their alignments.

villa game i think he's like, fairly visibly working through stuff as he writes about each person? there is nuance and depth, not

quite

as heavily showing in this game as it was in badfellas (comparison towngame) d2 but it's for sure there. real-feeling care about being correct (like, the slightly emotive comments/emotional i guess subtle slight fluctuation sprinkled through the processes? it's not at all strong emotion i'm not even sure emotive is the word but like. there's a great deal of flatness in the wolf processes that... isn't in the villa ones.) and like, meandering through/teasing stuff out in his head.

like the wolf game processes are a straight line and the villa game processes are a twisty/wiggly/tangled one. flat vs. bumpy.

The real issue with all of this wasn't that Cuthalion and co. had a bad read. There's nothing wrong or problematic at all with getting someone's alignment wrong in a game. What was problematic about this was that because it was a meta read, he was arguing from a position of authority. I couldn't really call his read into question, because he "knew Dp better than me" and my point of view was automatically less valid as a result. I couldn't argue against his reasoning, because I didn't have the same level of experience with Dp, I didn't have those past games that I could talk about to argue against his read. I could only talk about my reasoning about things he had done in that one game. It's equally sucky from Cuthalion's perspective, because he was stuck in a wrong read and there was no way for him to get a sanity check, to get someone to challenge him on his perspective.

Dp101 was replaced that game, btw, and I strongly scumread the replacement as well. I dumped a huge case on why the sub was mafia before I died. The slot endgamed town, with both Boquise and Alette (who knew and meta townread Dp101) alive and townreading the slot.

I think that's pretty much the crux of the problem with metareads.

a) You're making the game about things that it shouldn't be about.
b) Reading into playstyle is very rarely reliable.
c) You're alienating yourself and anyone who doesn't share your meta knowledge, and alienation is the surest way to lose games as town.
d) You're lowering the standard of what passes for town play in the game, which makes it easier for mafia to win.

Use a meta read to supplement an alignment read you have based on other reasoning? Sure. Avoid playstyle false positives by learning that a player does certain surface-level scummy stuff as town? Great. But it should never be a significant part of why you are reading someone the way you are and you should always be able to communicate with other people on equal terms about the read and what their behavior means for their alignment.

Here's one last example to top off an already too-long post. In my last game here, I got two correct townreads on townies that had kind of scummy playstyles by reading into their mindset, which is essentially the start of what would constitute a meta read, since good meta reads are just a heightened understanding of someone's mindset. My read on both wouldn't have been possible if I hadn't managed to figure out what level they were playing on. The two main points where that came together were Vulcan's "chicken-headedness" and TheRampage's bullrush-style play that came across as scummy on a surface level.

Spoiler:

I really like vulcan, I dig how he approaches the game. I like his posts when he talks about how he's thinking about things. His response to the progression thing early on where he said that he was either scum or just clueless town or something along those lines felt like a towny way to respond to that and sure I think the read progression is bad and his treatment of Draynth is bad but I can see a world where it is just chicken-headed town and not necessarily scummy so I don't come out of that feeling too bad about him. What really does it for me is the stuff Nacho pointed out about his mindset, I thought they were really good observations. I don't want to lynch him today.

I like the way TheRampage is just going at the game with all he's got and talking about how he's seeing things whether other people like it or not. I feel like if he were mafia he would be at least a little skittish about pushing Ircher but he's not at all. I also like the way that he's focusing on other things besides Ircher and not just spamming the thread and shoving the scumread down our throats. His read there and his treatment of it and his thread presence feel more town than mafia. I haven't put a ton of thought into this read and I haven't read his ISO super closely but I don't think I want to lynch him today.

Coincidentally, northsidegal, who was mafia in that game, based 2-3 of her reads that game on meta. It made no sense for her to base her reads on meta in the way she was, it was an excuse for her to avoid producing real reasoning, and because no one else in the game was using meta in that way, she ended up being correctly scumread for it. If the townies in the game had been throwing around meta reads, she would have fit in just fine. This is what I mean by point "d" above.

Hopefully this wasn't too long, lmao.

[Eragon]

Eragon, I meant Iceman was being hard on Quick.

oh ok

[OkaPoka]

@formerfish your vote is still on me it appears, so talk to me, why am I scum still?

[nancy]

OK, I did a one over on Ice. he seems to be saying stuff without really saying much. Lot of talk about the IC. Didn't like that he would PL the IC if they were alive D3. That's probably the most notable thing I saw.

Explain saying stuff without saying much and what that means about his alignment for you? Why don't you like the PL thing?

[nancy]

sorry guys, I was sleeping, woke up early, and went to a golf tournament and am finally home.

I will be catching up but I saw someone say something about voting...


I will say this here and now, I am NOT a believer in pressure votes.
When I vote somebody it is because I have a strong belief they will flip scum.
yesterday, I felt like Oka and flicker were both scummy enough to warrant a vote, but me voting would've put them at L-2(iirc)
and I dont think L-2 is a good spot rn because it normally warrants a claim, and claiming this early into the game is bleh, and the game devolves into Neanderthals fighting over which claim people believe

Hum.

You really shouldn't claim before L-1 and someone has given intent to hammer.

[nancy]

im not really seeing flicker scum rn

This is also a thing.

Um.

would Oka be considered 180'ing or Fencesitting right here?(game theory question, not for actual game)

Is an inconsistency in his progression. If he's mafia, his stance on Flicker is a little glimpse into the fact that he's lying about his reads, because he can't keep his thoughts on her straight and reads into the same content from her in different ways based on thread temperature. Is possible that he just had that inconsistency as town too, though, I think, so it's a little scummy maybe but not very? He seems pretty scatterbrained as a player so I think it's probably less indicative than it might be otherwise. I also sorta liked his response to me about it, I guess, which helps a bit.

[nancy]

God, I feel like I really need a sanity check on my Eragon townread.

[nancy]

@Trinity, why didn't you respond to me last night?

[nancy]

Eragon, can you give like, a rundown of where you're at with reads right now please?

[OkaPoka]

you know im starting to doubt my eragon townread as well if that is where you are going

[Eragon]

ST-{none}
T-{Formerfish, Nancy}
LT-{Stan1ey, Quick}
N-{Trinity}
NS-{oka, flicker, iceman}
S-{none}

not much different, im liking iceman less and trinity was moved down
I put quick in LT because I dont think scum would draw too much attention to themselves for not reading the thread and it feel natural

[Eragon]

sorry guys, I was sleeping, woke up early, and went to a golf tournament and am finally home.

I will be catching up but I saw someone say something about voting...


I will say this here and now, I am NOT a believer in pressure votes.
When I vote somebody it is because I have a strong belief they will flip scum.
yesterday, I felt like Oka and flicker were both scummy enough to warrant a vote, but me voting would've put them at L-2(iirc)
and I dont think L-2 is a good spot rn because it normally warrants a claim, and claiming this early into the game is bleh, and the game devolves into Neanderthals fighting over which claim people believe

Hum.

You really shouldn't claim before L-1 and someone has given intent to hammer.

we all have our preferences.

im not really seeing flicker scum rn

This is also a thing.

Um.

would Oka be considered 180'ing or Fencesitting right here?(game theory question, not for actual game)

Is an inconsistency in his progression. If he's mafia, his stance on Flicker is a little glimpse into the fact that he's lying about his reads, because he can't keep his thoughts on her straight and reads into the same content from her in different ways based on thread temperature. Is possible that he just had that inconsistency as town too, though, I think, so it's a little scummy maybe but not very? He seems pretty scatterbrained as a player so I think it's probably less indicative than it might be otherwise. I also sorta liked his response to me about it, I guess, which helps a bit.

ok

God, I feel like I really need a sanity check on my Eragon townread.

im not insane, promise :3

[OkaPoka]

though tbh im starting to doubt a lot of my solid townreads, i think nancy is my only solid townread left, everything else is shifting towards null or scum

[nancy]

ST-{none}
T-{Formerfish, Nancy}
LT-{Stan1ey, Quick}
N-{Trinity}
NS-{oka, flicker, iceman}
S-{none}

not much different, im liking iceman less and trinity was moved down
I put quick in LT because I dont think scum would draw too much attention to themselves for not reading the thread and it feel natural

I don't mean just a readlist, I mean words about where your head is at with the game.

Like, you've posted about a bunch of stuff and I've agreed with a lot of what you've had to say but when I think about your reads and how you got to them I kind of come up empty? Also just kind of don't have a sense of what you're actually doing here to solve the game, feels a bit like you're just showing up and commenting on everything but not doing a whole lot else and it's worrying me.

[nancy]

though tbh im starting to doubt a lot of my solid townreads, i think nancy is my only solid townread left, everything else is shifting towards null or scum

Um, why?

[Eragon]

ST-{none}
T-{Formerfish, Nancy}
LT-{Stan1ey, Quick}
N-{Trinity}
NS-{oka, flicker, iceman}
S-{none}

not much different, im liking iceman less and trinity was moved down
I put quick in LT because I dont think scum would draw too much attention to themselves for not reading the thread and it feel natural

I don't mean just a readlist, I mean words about where your head is at with the game.

Like, you've posted about a bunch of stuff and I've agreed with a lot of what you've had to say but when I think about your reads and how you got to them I kind of come up empty? Also just kind of don't have a sense of what you're actually doing here to solve the game, feels a bit like you're just showing up and commenting on everything but not doing a whole lot else and it's worrying me.

ok, so basically like explaining my reads?