Newbie 1881 - Game Over

[Formerfish]

Why am I being prodded short of 48 hrs?

Subject: Newbie Game Queue (Players and Mods)

Deadlines have been updated to 10 days for Day 1, and 7 days for all further Day phases. Prodding now occurs after 30 hours of inactivity. (7/2/2018)

Yeah, I checked after I posted that. Im used to 48 hr timers. ::shrug::

[TrinityNZ]

So Trinity. Is the main reason you switched on Oka is because of his relentless push on you? That he wouldn't risk it as town? Because by that logic, as scum, couldn't he do that, and undertake that defense? That's just WIFOM (Hope I used that correctly ;P ). Knowing that you'd town read him bc no scum would be that brazen sounds like a wonderful idea for scum to just do it anyway

Yes, you could be right, this is one reason why I’m feeling so confused right now, the longer this day goes on, the more confused I get.

After more thinking about this, I’m going to vote for Oka. I have flip flopped a couple of times with Oka. I started off thinking he was scum because of his tenacious and strong (and what I saw as unfounded) push on me, as an easy target. Then I thought that he wouldn’t do that as scum, because it would look too obvious. But yes, I agree this could be WIFOM, and it makes sense, so I’m putting my vote back on him.

I’m also having similar doubts about FormerFish. Again, I started off thinking he was mafia, and then changed my mind. Now I’m leaning back towards him being scum as he’s not feeling to me like he’s really in the game as much as he should be, and taking a bit of back seat and letting others do the scum hunt work, which doesn’t seem like him.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: OkaPoka I think that’s L-1

[Formerfish]

This is my order from town to mafia:

Nancy
IceMan
OkaPoka
WhyMafia
Flicker
Formerfish
Quick
Eragon

I could lynch any of the last three.

So, you went from scum reading me, to not, and then say that I am included in a pool of 3 to be lynched...

[OkaPoka]

bro

vote me ok

but you want to give me that evidence ive been waiting for

[Formerfish]

@Trinity I dunno what to say honestly, it's not really good enough to just list names in an order, you have to be able to talk about why those names are ordered the way they are. Like, you were able to talk about FF and Oka at least to some degree, that fact that you're completely unable to articulate any form of a scumread on anyone else at this point is super super worrying. You've also got FF in your lynch pool which is ???, you have stated a townread on FF, please explain how that makes sense.

I was planning on voting Oka this morning when I woke up but after Trinity's recent posting I'm kinda torn. In the world where Trinity is mafia then her flip would clear Oka and that's not a small thing. In the world where she's town then I want to lynch Oka pretty much always but my townread on her isn't as strong as it was and if I think there's a realistic chance of Trinity being mafia then I'm kind of inclined to give that read more time to develop and just put Trinity/Oka aside until tomorrow.

I think I want to lynch Quick the most at this point. There's just so much scum motivation in the way that he's been treating the Oka wagon and I've been mostly turning a blind eye to it but I don't think I can anymore. He's also just not doing anything this game and generally speaking that's never a bad type of slot to lynch on day 1.

@Everyone please share with the class who you would be willing to lynch today.

I think my lynch preference for today is Quick->Eragon->FF.

Lol I thought you were just asking for a list I will try and do more.

[TrinityNZ]

This is my order from town to mafia:

Nancy
IceMan
OkaPoka
WhyMafia
Flicker
Formerfish
Quick
Eragon

I could lynch any of the last three.

So, you went from scum reading me, to not, and then say that I am included in a pool of 3 to be lynched...

Yes, see my last post - I can’t make up my mind on you!

[OkaPoka]

Talk to me about ff, write up a case with some evidence

OK, so I know this is going to make me look flaky, but looking for evidence has just made me confused! FF looks to me like apart from the interaction with Quick, he’s mainly spent time leaning on Oka and not really putting in the effort on everyone else. And I don’t think he’s tried hard to defend the votes on him. But I’ve had to admit that I do like that he’s after Oka as I think Oka could be scum, which would possibly, but not definitely, mean that FF isn’t.

My current thinking is:

Nancy - strong town. We all know why.

Oka - scum lean, mainly because of the weak case he was trying to make on me, and poor answers to questions others have asked.

Iceman - slight town lean, as I’ve liked his theory posts, although his vote on Quick seemed a bit forced, and not for the best of reasons. I don’t think not reading posts is AI.
Quick - slight scum lean. I initially didn’t think scum would be so blasé about the attack from IceMan. But some of his posts are scummy sounding, like ‘you are trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake’. As mafia in the last game I worried about making mistakes, but in this game I’m not worried so much as what sort of mistakes can I make? I mean, I can make silly mistakes where people might think I’m stupid, but I can’t think what type of think a ‘mistake’ I could make that would be really bad.
Flicker - slight scum lean, the unvote of Oka seems strange.
Eragon - town lean originally, as he came in with a hiss and a roar, but that has tapered off, so null at the moment.
Why Mafia - town lean. I’m linking his posts. He’s put in a lot of effort really quickly and looks like he’s making an effort to understand the game, and made some good cases.
FF - was my strongest scum lean, but I’m backing off that, as noted above.

UNVOTE: FormerFish

Oka - scum lean, mainly because of the weak case he was trying to make on me, and poor answers to questions others have asked.

Oka, you asked for examples, so here’s a couple of things:

First, you said this:

Typically speaking, you should at least check in once every 24 hours at the bare minimum to comment on things, answer questions, or ask questions, but as the deadline gets closer, it is good to increase your posting and be more active, especially if no real lynch candidates have been presented imo.

Then, you said this about me to start reading me in scum, even though I was doing exactly what you said in the post above. And this seems to be the only reason you have for reading me as scum. I just don’t think it’s a good enough reason. It’s like you’re clutching at straws. you even noted you didn’t have any questions for me. And since this post, you’ve been constantly on my case.

yeah i think trinity is scum, she hasn't really meaningful engaged with anyone without really being prompted to.
feels like she is reading the thread, answers any questions directed at her and then disappears
town would be more proactive imo

VOTE: trinity
ff might hate me for voting her already but i don't really have questions for her

Below is an example of another post from you I didn’t like. I couldn’t see why you would ask this question.

@nancy what are the point of these questions, especially question number 3

Having spent about the last two hours reading recent posts, and responding, I’m coming to the conclusion that you might not be mafia after all. I think your push on me is so strong, that if I am mislynched, you would look really suspicious because your push has been so strong, and I don’t think you are that stupid. I think if you were mafia you would have been easing back a bit on me and letting others do the work. So after all that, I’m reading you as town now.

UNVOTE: OkaPoka

I have no idea who to vote for now, that will have to be tomorrow’s job, I’ve spent too much time here tonight already.

I hope I’ve answered everyone’s questions.

These are not examples of poor responses to other people's questions.

I continue to await. Like I have been.

[Quick]

Spoiler: @Quick

FF, you said ISOs are NAI. Is catching up AI?

It depends. Like the game I linked I SR Ceejay based on how he replaced into the game. I wouldnt say it would be a huge dent, but someone legit not catching up in a game this small would ping me. Making an attempt, or intimating that you are, is NAI to me because its optimal play from either side. And you don't even necessarily have to do it, you just would have to worry about slipping up later after saying you were caught up. If scum have day chat then they would have all the relevant info for you there.

You know, after thinking about it, this seems like a completely different kind of read that you are describing besides simply getting caught up. You are describing how Ceejay was inconsistent in a Scummy way, and I'd wager that this kind of thing actually has little to do with whether he was caught up or not. It's a Scummy contradiction that could happen whether he was getting caught up or not.. It's not specific to getting caught up necessarily.

This quote contains no reasoning about why FF is mafia. You asked him a theory question, and he answered.

Vote: Quick

I don't believe that your read on Iceman is real. You're saying that you disagree with him or he is bad therefore he is mafia, which is nonsense. Your entire case on him feels like shade and I don't like it one bit. Please catch up and provide thoughts on the game.

Are you getting a scum caught for reasons they dont believe they should have been caught kinda vibe coming off of Quick right now?

Uh-huh. It looks like you like that argument.

This is shade/doubtcasting, by you, which is scummy. I happen to think that the post you quoted is scummy, but again, no reasoning from you why FF is mafia in this quote.

it feels like it was phrased in a way that allows iceman to build upon it later to attack nancy w/o really needing to build a legitimate in game case on her

like instead of saying something about nancy feels off, feels like she is controlling town he goes with the proposition that cannot really be argued against

I don't think you're insane for thinking this.

But like, lmao, it doesn't feel very intuitive for mafia to come in the way he did and talk in detail about his idea that we should lynch the IC in lylo. He has to know that will look bad and if he's mafia he has to already be feeling like he wants me very dead with the way my thread presence is, so it's like, not a thing that he's ever actually going to cash in on and he would know that. I also kind of feel like it would take a bit more of an experienced player to try to use that as a way to break down trust, and kinda think he'd be intimidated by me given how he's a newb and newbscum generally suck up to the IC.

This kinda bugs me. IDK why people keep saying Ice is a newb when he's not.

How is not a newbie? He has finished 3 newbie games, is in his 4th and is playing in his first non-newbie game concurrently.

If he isn't a newbie then he is like a half step above being one. Not sure why you feel the need to try and bolster your SRs position there, maybe you think it gives your case on him more weight. Your case is bad by the way. It basically comes down to the fact that you dont personally think what you did was scummy. You fail to take into account that the way you think is not the way everyone thinks. Some people think in ways completely different from you. If I also found the way you came in scummy, as well as a few others in this game it appears, dont you think that maybe, just fucking maybe, that they have experience where scum does just what you did. And I know you responded that what Ceejay did, in the game I used as an example, is different from what you did/are doing, but that misses the point.

The point is that people can get scum read for the fucking flimsiest of reasons. When scum get caught by reasons they think they shouldnt be caught for they usually act the way you are right now.

Which is how?

I didn't see that Ice had only played 3-4 games, what I saw is that he was playing in games with 20 PRs. Those kinds of games are generally reserved for people who completely know what they are doing or completely have no idea what they are doing and I assumed the former.

It's nice that you know people think in different ways, but that's not why I am SRing Ice.

They (in general, which is how you are phrasing this) could have had the experience where a Scum person didn't catch up, but that wasn't my impression of Ice's reason for voting me. It seemed theory based. As far as nanacy's vote is concerned, I've already addressed that.

I do have a question though. Are you going to actually vote me or are you just gunna shade me?

No reasoning from you. This isn't a read. The way you're taunting him is gross.

Here is your OMGUS, bud.

VOTE: FF

tbh I feel like you are just trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake. Plus that excuse about trying to catch up when you were pretty much already there was pretty bad.

Okay. Explain how the second thing is scummy?

Have you given a read on Oka?

i think they are slightly scummy to me, but that is one of my weaker reads

Why?

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?
Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

I completely fail to see what you are trying to point out here.

Seriously man? Like 10 posts before WM asked you to show work on your read and you told him to iso the guy and think for himself. Then you ask someone else to show the reasons they have come up with a read.

Why should they if you refuse to show your work?

Its hypocritical.

It's not hypocritical because I am not necessarily asking for examples. Try again.

Where did he say that to WM? I can't find it. I also side with FF on this one and think you were misunderstanding.

It's not hypocritical because I am not necessarily asking for examples. Try again.

How do you expect him to explain his scum read on Oka? Hes going to have to show the posts that made him feel icky inside and then explain them to you to see if you feel icky as well. If we all just automatically felt the same way about posts then this game would be a lot easier than it is. Asking why someone is scum inherently is asking the other person to give examples.

I am going off the assumption that you want to make sure I am not full of shit in what I am saying. I don't need to provide examples for that if you can figure it out yourself if what I am saying has merit or not.

Like listen man. I'm not going to tell you how to play, you do you. Heres the thing though, when I see anti-town play, I say something. WM asked you a legit question in response to something you said. Your response to his question was to go reread himself with your vague statement in mind and to see what post pinged him and then you would let him know if those were the right ones?

And you claim that that is the simple way of doing it. Simple to me would be you quoting a few posts where Oka exemplified the behaviors you spoke to him exhibiting as evidence to the group to further your own read.

How is that Anti-Town? Just because YOU don't play that way doesn't mean it's Anti-Town. As far as "how is he supposed to explain?" You don't really need to give examples to do that - in fact, he could pretty much just do exactly what I did, which is give a rundown of how things have gone in general. Maybe it's that I am more big picture than you are. Having an overall understanding is better than specifics anyways.

So, you were being anti-town, FF called you on that, and this makes him mafia because _______.

@formerfish what are your reads on trinity/iceman/eragon?

Scum lean, town lean, null town.

Something in her post just seem desperate to me. I know nancy has a strong town read here, but its just not there for me. The push on me is a bad one since she is using meta for the most part and the meta isnt accurate.

I like the way Iceman plays, it reminds me a lot of myself as a younger town player. He says whats on his mind and lays in the bed he makes when he has to answer for something. I also see a progression in him from the games weve played. This is where I see his town game now from the last 2, I dont see him as scum here.

Eragon, a lot of what he posts seems perfunctory. Other things show good signs. Wouldnt lynch here today.

Holy Fuck, you're so full of shit!

When asked about how you are reading someone you go straight to overall play, not examples. This is a pretty blatant contradiction of play, bud.

This is a legalistic interpretation of FF's earlier statements and basically equivalent a strawman argument. Not scummy, and even if he were contradicting himself, you haven't shown why that's scummy.

Two examples of each that I found in like 2 min.

Holy shit this is like pulling teeth with you. Which ones are examples of ones you liked and which are the ones you didnt. Why to both?

It's like you are not even paying attention at this point. WhyMafia asked why I was reading Oka the way I was. I said I felt some of their questions seemed really Town motivated but that I thought some of their pushes were suspect. Pretty sure you can figure out the rest. Pretty sure you are just being this difficult because Oka is who you want to lynch, which is incredibly Scummy if correct.

The constant defensiveness and your tone add to the whole ensemble. I might be misreading your posts though and you dont have a tone, dont know you well enough to figure between the two right now.

Since when is defensiveness a Scum tell? It's not, you're just trying to push this narrative because I disagree with you.

I'm assuming the last sentence is the only part of this that you mean to be relevant? I don't think it's insane that FF would think to read into your defensiveness. I think you're trying to portray FF as an insane person and I think it's stupid.

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

Brah, that's not Scummy. I'm explaining my position on why you are Scum whom I am voting right now.

So, FF thinks something is scummy that you don't think is scummy and this makes him mafia because _______.

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

Brah, that's not Scummy. I'm explaining my position on why you are Scum whom I am voting right now.

Im pretty sure there is nothing I can do with you right now that you wouldnt scum read. But if you want to act like what you are saying is right then go for it. I see how you twice failed to acknowledge that the thing you are "getting me" for in that post isnt even a thing. Oka asking me for reads and me not giving specific posts to back up each one is not the same an WM asking you to explain a specific read you had. But keep pushing your narrative, I get it. Rolling scum in a game you replace into sucks, but this is nothing personal, if it werent you another body would be in that scumseat.

LOL, you are such Scum.

How is that not a contradiction?

There are reasons why this post from FF is scummy and none of them have to do with the contradiction that you claim he made. There's no reasoning in this quote.

Here's another contradiction in FF's play: They say I am confbiasing him as Scum.. Even if I am (I'm not) He's doing the same fucking thing to me!

This makes him mafia because _____.

Because Oka hasnt asked for it yet. Its not that you didnt do it, its that you wouldnt do it when someone asked. If Oka needs more info from me on hose reads to satisfy his curiosity then he can ask. If I refuse then itd be like you and scummy. However that situation hasnt taken place yet so...

Also legit question. When you find out im town, where do you go from there?

Ninja- naw bro, using confbias to add to my scum read of you is not the same.

You are the one who was pushing me for not giving examples. So what makes you think who asked you what would be satisfied without examples? On the one hand, you are arguing that I am Scummy for not providing examples, which shows that you agree examples are necessary, otherwise there is no reason to bring it up in the first place. On the other hand, you are not providing examples yourself and basically representing that an overview of play is how you personally operate. So then why am I Scummy for operating in the same way that you are? You are looking for EXCUSES to SR me.

I think it's pretty valid for FF to scumread you for not talking about your reads. You're trying to make it about the specific way in which you or he talks about reads, which is irrelevant. You bogged the discussion down in inanities then scumread him for being bogged down in inanities. It's a neat rhetorical trick, but it's stupid.

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

Ugh. I hate this post. The idea put forth in this post is so very very bad. You don't lynch people because of their title, you lynch them because they are Scum, period.

FF is bad, which makes him mafia because _______.

FF's point is actually that it's not unreasonable for Iceman to have the idea that he had, and that he dislikes Oka's vote as a result. You're misconstruing his argument. Sure, make the argument that this is scummy of FF because something something TMI reads, but don't pretend that he's saying it's okay to PL the IC and scumread for that, that's just wrong.

it's not the pagecount and number of posts that makes it slow its the lack of scumhunting and wagon forming which im at fault for but nonetheless its giving a slow impression

Lack of scum hunting? Its day 1 and we are on page, what, 8? We are still very much in the feeling each other out stage for anyone to have really strong feelings about wanting to hang anyone. Shit we can have hunches and we can have inklings, but if you are looking for a full blown case this early then you are scum and need to die.

Also, at you talking about the lack of wagons forming when you commented on not wanting to join the one on flicker and would rather do your own thing over there.

So many things wrong with this post...

You should be Scum hunting regardless of what Day it is, for one.

Wanting wagons to form and not wanting to be on ANY wagon isn't a contradiction, seriously.

FF had been scumhunting. He was only saying that Oka didn't need to try to rev the game up, and that he thought it would be unrealistic for anyone to have a case-worthy scumread that early in the game. Why is this post scummy, Quick? You haven't put forth any reasoning, you're just saying that FF is wrong/bad/scummy.

Sure, I think a lot of the stuff you quoted from FF is pretty scummy, and guess what? I'm scumreading FF. But I think your reasons for thinking he's scum are pretty drab at best, horrific at worst, mostly nonexistent as far as what you have put into this thread, and I think you can do better.

Also, I see you are letting FF off the hook for doing meta (based on very few games) but telling everyone else not to do that. Is there a reason you feel FF is exempt from this?

I'm not. Why do you think that I am?

First off, I'm not having a quote war with you, I'm just not. Secondly, you are confbiasing me HARD right now. You realize pretty much everything I said about FF being Scummy you COMPLETELY dismissed right? Like WTAF is this? I cannot see you actually thinking this.

As far as you not having a problem with FF doing meta in such a shallow way, I can search your ISO for "Meta" if you want, but I am pretty sure you have just let FF go to town on that for no apparent reason whatsoever. If I am wrong about this, please quote where you told FF not to do that in this game or something similar at least.

[Formerfish]

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

maybe he is town but im not getting many scumreads rn and i feel like his post on nancy is fake and the comment on IC's sounds like he wants to keep his lynch options open

When have you ever had strong scum reads on day 1, thats not really your style man? See, its posts like this that do worry me about you. Of course hes keeping his options open, its day 1, we all have our options open. I would not lynch like 3 people right now, the rest are all lynchable to some degree. This is overly aggressive play from you at this point in the game, and its propelling you further up my list of to die.

Have we ever played together in which I was here day 1?

I'm honestly not sure.

[OkaPoka]

How can you be an accurate judge of my day 1 meta then?

How am I misrepping Iceman?

[nancy]

Vote: Trinity

That is actually insane. I don't see how you could drop that Oka townread like that if that is a real read that you had and there is so much scum motivation for you to vote Oka right now.

@Quick 709

[Formerfish]

And his "scumread" on FF consists of "lol you're scum", "you're scummy", "you're wrong", "you're bad", "you're a liar" and various repetitions of the same.

Thank you for seeing this. I felt like I was getting gaslit here and was starting to lose it a little.

[Quick]

Votecount 1.20

OkaPoka (3) -

IcemanCh, WhyMafia, Formerfish

TrinityNZ (2) -

OkaPoka, Flicker

Formerfish (1) -

Quick

Not Voting (3) -

Eragon, TrinityNZ, nancy

With 9 players alive it takes 5 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 1 is in (expired on 2018-07-23 11:49:57).

Prodding Formerfish.

So Trinity. Is the main reason you switched on Oka is because of his relentless push on you? That he wouldn't risk it as town? Because by that logic, as scum, couldn't he do that, and undertake that defense? That's just WIFOM (Hope I used that correctly ;P ). Knowing that you'd town read him bc no scum would be that brazen sounds like a wonderful idea for scum to just do it anyway

Yes, you could be right, this is one reason why I’m feeling so confused right now, the longer this day goes on, the more confused I get.

After more thinking about this, I’m going to vote for Oka. I have flip flopped a couple of times with Oka. I started off thinking he was scum because of his tenacious and strong (and what I saw as unfounded) push on me, as an easy target. Then I thought that he wouldn’t do that as scum, because it would look too obvious. But yes, I agree this could be WIFOM, and it makes sense, so I’m putting my vote back on him.

I’m also having similar doubts about FormerFish. Again, I started off thinking he was mafia, and then changed my mind. Now I’m leaning back towards him being scum as he’s not feeling to me like he’s really in the game as much as he should be, and taking a bit of back seat and letting others do the scum hunt work, which doesn’t seem like him.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: OkaPoka I think that’s L-1

Coincidence or no? Not sure at this point.

Let's try this:

(was going to vote Trinity here but looks like nancy beat me to it.

And see what happens...

[Formerfish]

And as we approach the deadline, the chances of a successful counterwagon to my own are going to be diminishing pretty rapidly.

We are going to need a spike in scumhunting, hoping I can get Formerfish's reaction to my post on Iceman even if he blows up on me. And I'm also hoping I can get trinity to get me some actual examples of my responses to questions.

I think that there is nothing to gain from going after Ice because of the IC thing. I get what he is saying and if you are choosing not to then thats on you. Iceman is not scum here.

But you are SRing Oka for that, so let's talk about it???

Ok, what would you like to talk about? I have a strong enough town read on Ice to think that someone pushing him off some bullshit is scummy. Questions?

[Formerfish]

And as we approach the deadline, the chances of a successful counterwagon to my own are going to be diminishing pretty rapidly.

We are going to need a spike in scumhunting, hoping I can get Formerfish's reaction to my post on Iceman even if he blows up on me. And I'm also hoping I can get trinity to get me some actual examples of my responses to questions.

I think that there is nothing to gain from going after Ice because of the IC thing. I get what he is saying and if you are choosing not to then thats on you. Iceman is not scum here.

But how exactly am I misrepping Iceman?
check my 1081, I think its clear that Iceman has redefined his policy multiple times. I don't feel like I've done a poor job in repeating what
Iceman has said.

You might get what he is saying or you might be reading between the lines to extract some subtle implied information, but nonetheless I feel like I have not misrepped Iceman, it's pretty blatant with some of the posts Iceman has made in what he is saying.

Do you think that Iceman is advocating for a baseless policy lynch on the IC if they are alive on day 3?

[Eragon]

I was skimming through Trinity’s ISO, because I wanted to see their progression on me being their top scum…

In 671 they said they had me as an original townlean, but then moved down to null because my activity tapered off

On top of this, they have talked a lot about their activity being down and that they need time, but then they move me down to null because I lost activity…

Also, in 1157 they mark me as MOST LIKELY to flip mafia, without talking about me ONCE from 671 until 1157

I dont understand this progression at all and it irks me that someone moves me from town > Null because activity, then moves me to top scum without talking about me once.




I am likely gonna do an oka ISO skim, unless there is something else important, i ahve precisely 45 minutes to be active

[OkaPoka]

And as we approach the deadline, the chances of a successful counterwagon to my own are going to be diminishing pretty rapidly.

We are going to need a spike in scumhunting, hoping I can get Formerfish's reaction to my post on Iceman even if he blows up on me. And I'm also hoping I can get trinity to get me some actual examples of my responses to questions.

I think that there is nothing to gain from going after Ice because of the IC thing. I get what he is saying and if you are choosing not to then thats on you. Iceman is not scum here.

But how exactly am I misrepping Iceman?
check my 1081, I think its clear that Iceman has redefined his policy multiple times. I don't feel like I've done a poor job in repeating what
Iceman has said.

You might get what he is saying or you might be reading between the lines to extract some subtle implied information, but nonetheless I feel like I have not misrepped Iceman, it's pretty blatant with some of the posts Iceman has made in what he is saying.

Do you think that Iceman is advocating for a baseless policy lynch on the IC if they are alive on day 3?

He blatantly said lynch the IC if we have no strong reads day before lylo, so unless he is lying, yes.

[Quick]

And as we approach the deadline, the chances of a successful counterwagon to my own are going to be diminishing pretty rapidly.

We are going to need a spike in scumhunting, hoping I can get Formerfish's reaction to my post on Iceman even if he blows up on me. And I'm also hoping I can get trinity to get me some actual examples of my responses to questions.

I think that there is nothing to gain from going after Ice because of the IC thing. I get what he is saying and if you are choosing not to then thats on you. Iceman is not scum here.

But you are SRing Oka for that, so let's talk about it???

Ok, what would you like to talk about? I have a strong enough town read on Ice to think that someone pushing him off some bullshit is scummy. Questions?

How is the fact that someone disagrees with the stance Ice has made/Thinking it's Scummy to put the idea forward to lynch the IC only after 2 Days have passed, in which case, you should seriously be considering lynching the IC just because they are alive, actually Scummy? Explain that to me because I am not sure I have that nailed down at this point.

[Formerfish]

Spoiler: @Quick

FF, you said ISOs are NAI. Is catching up AI?

It depends. Like the game I linked I SR Ceejay based on how he replaced into the game. I wouldnt say it would be a huge dent, but someone legit not catching up in a game this small would ping me. Making an attempt, or intimating that you are, is NAI to me because its optimal play from either side. And you don't even necessarily have to do it, you just would have to worry about slipping up later after saying you were caught up. If scum have day chat then they would have all the relevant info for you there.

You know, after thinking about it, this seems like a completely different kind of read that you are describing besides simply getting caught up. You are describing how Ceejay was inconsistent in a Scummy way, and I'd wager that this kind of thing actually has little to do with whether he was caught up or not. It's a Scummy contradiction that could happen whether he was getting caught up or not.. It's not specific to getting caught up necessarily.

This quote contains no reasoning about why FF is mafia. You asked him a theory question, and he answered.

Vote: Quick

I don't believe that your read on Iceman is real. You're saying that you disagree with him or he is bad therefore he is mafia, which is nonsense. Your entire case on him feels like shade and I don't like it one bit. Please catch up and provide thoughts on the game.

Are you getting a scum caught for reasons they dont believe they should have been caught kinda vibe coming off of Quick right now?

Uh-huh. It looks like you like that argument.

This is shade/doubtcasting, by you, which is scummy. I happen to think that the post you quoted is scummy, but again, no reasoning from you why FF is mafia in this quote.

it feels like it was phrased in a way that allows iceman to build upon it later to attack nancy w/o really needing to build a legitimate in game case on her

like instead of saying something about nancy feels off, feels like she is controlling town he goes with the proposition that cannot really be argued against

I don't think you're insane for thinking this.

But like, lmao, it doesn't feel very intuitive for mafia to come in the way he did and talk in detail about his idea that we should lynch the IC in lylo. He has to know that will look bad and if he's mafia he has to already be feeling like he wants me very dead with the way my thread presence is, so it's like, not a thing that he's ever actually going to cash in on and he would know that. I also kind of feel like it would take a bit more of an experienced player to try to use that as a way to break down trust, and kinda think he'd be intimidated by me given how he's a newb and newbscum generally suck up to the IC.

This kinda bugs me. IDK why people keep saying Ice is a newb when he's not.

How is not a newbie? He has finished 3 newbie games, is in his 4th and is playing in his first non-newbie game concurrently.

If he isn't a newbie then he is like a half step above being one. Not sure why you feel the need to try and bolster your SRs position there, maybe you think it gives your case on him more weight. Your case is bad by the way. It basically comes down to the fact that you dont personally think what you did was scummy. You fail to take into account that the way you think is not the way everyone thinks. Some people think in ways completely different from you. If I also found the way you came in scummy, as well as a few others in this game it appears, dont you think that maybe, just fucking maybe, that they have experience where scum does just what you did. And I know you responded that what Ceejay did, in the game I used as an example, is different from what you did/are doing, but that misses the point.

The point is that people can get scum read for the fucking flimsiest of reasons. When scum get caught by reasons they think they shouldnt be caught for they usually act the way you are right now.

Which is how?

I didn't see that Ice had only played 3-4 games, what I saw is that he was playing in games with 20 PRs. Those kinds of games are generally reserved for people who completely know what they are doing or completely have no idea what they are doing and I assumed the former.

It's nice that you know people think in different ways, but that's not why I am SRing Ice.

They (in general, which is how you are phrasing this) could have had the experience where a Scum person didn't catch up, but that wasn't my impression of Ice's reason for voting me. It seemed theory based. As far as nanacy's vote is concerned, I've already addressed that.

I do have a question though. Are you going to actually vote me or are you just gunna shade me?

No reasoning from you. This isn't a read. The way you're taunting him is gross.

Here is your OMGUS, bud.

VOTE: FF

tbh I feel like you are just trying to upset me more and get me to make a mistake. Plus that excuse about trying to catch up when you were pretty much already there was pretty bad.

Okay. Explain how the second thing is scummy?

Have you given a read on Oka?

i think they are slightly scummy to me, but that is one of my weaker reads

Why?

Did you know there is an alternate, superior way if figuring this out, without me possibly influencing you by cherry picking?
Just ISO Oka with what I said in mind. If you come to the same conclusion, that solves this problem.

I completely fail to see what you are trying to point out here.

Seriously man? Like 10 posts before WM asked you to show work on your read and you told him to iso the guy and think for himself. Then you ask someone else to show the reasons they have come up with a read.

Why should they if you refuse to show your work?

Its hypocritical.

It's not hypocritical because I am not necessarily asking for examples. Try again.

Where did he say that to WM? I can't find it. I also side with FF on this one and think you were misunderstanding.

It's not hypocritical because I am not necessarily asking for examples. Try again.

How do you expect him to explain his scum read on Oka? Hes going to have to show the posts that made him feel icky inside and then explain them to you to see if you feel icky as well. If we all just automatically felt the same way about posts then this game would be a lot easier than it is. Asking why someone is scum inherently is asking the other person to give examples.

I am going off the assumption that you want to make sure I am not full of shit in what I am saying. I don't need to provide examples for that if you can figure it out yourself if what I am saying has merit or not.

Like listen man. I'm not going to tell you how to play, you do you. Heres the thing though, when I see anti-town play, I say something. WM asked you a legit question in response to something you said. Your response to his question was to go reread himself with your vague statement in mind and to see what post pinged him and then you would let him know if those were the right ones?

And you claim that that is the simple way of doing it. Simple to me would be you quoting a few posts where Oka exemplified the behaviors you spoke to him exhibiting as evidence to the group to further your own read.

How is that Anti-Town? Just because YOU don't play that way doesn't mean it's Anti-Town. As far as "how is he supposed to explain?" You don't really need to give examples to do that - in fact, he could pretty much just do exactly what I did, which is give a rundown of how things have gone in general. Maybe it's that I am more big picture than you are. Having an overall understanding is better than specifics anyways.

So, you were being anti-town, FF called you on that, and this makes him mafia because _______.

@formerfish what are your reads on trinity/iceman/eragon?

Scum lean, town lean, null town.

Something in her post just seem desperate to me. I know nancy has a strong town read here, but its just not there for me. The push on me is a bad one since she is using meta for the most part and the meta isnt accurate.

I like the way Iceman plays, it reminds me a lot of myself as a younger town player. He says whats on his mind and lays in the bed he makes when he has to answer for something. I also see a progression in him from the games weve played. This is where I see his town game now from the last 2, I dont see him as scum here.

Eragon, a lot of what he posts seems perfunctory. Other things show good signs. Wouldnt lynch here today.

Holy Fuck, you're so full of shit!

When asked about how you are reading someone you go straight to overall play, not examples. This is a pretty blatant contradiction of play, bud.

This is a legalistic interpretation of FF's earlier statements and basically equivalent a strawman argument. Not scummy, and even if he were contradicting himself, you haven't shown why that's scummy.

Two examples of each that I found in like 2 min.

Holy shit this is like pulling teeth with you. Which ones are examples of ones you liked and which are the ones you didnt. Why to both?

It's like you are not even paying attention at this point. WhyMafia asked why I was reading Oka the way I was. I said I felt some of their questions seemed really Town motivated but that I thought some of their pushes were suspect. Pretty sure you can figure out the rest. Pretty sure you are just being this difficult because Oka is who you want to lynch, which is incredibly Scummy if correct.

The constant defensiveness and your tone add to the whole ensemble. I might be misreading your posts though and you dont have a tone, dont know you well enough to figure between the two right now.

Since when is defensiveness a Scum tell? It's not, you're just trying to push this narrative because I disagree with you.

I'm assuming the last sentence is the only part of this that you mean to be relevant? I don't think it's insane that FF would think to read into your defensiveness. I think you're trying to portray FF as an insane person and I think it's stupid.

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

Brah, that's not Scummy. I'm explaining my position on why you are Scum whom I am voting right now.

So, FF thinks something is scummy that you don't think is scummy and this makes him mafia because _______.

Your willingness to attempt to jump on everything I say like a gotcha moment is probably one of the scummiest things Ive seen recently.

VOTE: Quick

Brah, that's not Scummy. I'm explaining my position on why you are Scum whom I am voting right now.

Im pretty sure there is nothing I can do with you right now that you wouldnt scum read. But if you want to act like what you are saying is right then go for it. I see how you twice failed to acknowledge that the thing you are "getting me" for in that post isnt even a thing. Oka asking me for reads and me not giving specific posts to back up each one is not the same an WM asking you to explain a specific read you had. But keep pushing your narrative, I get it. Rolling scum in a game you replace into sucks, but this is nothing personal, if it werent you another body would be in that scumseat.

LOL, you are such Scum.

How is that not a contradiction?

There are reasons why this post from FF is scummy and none of them have to do with the contradiction that you claim he made. There's no reasoning in this quote.

Here's another contradiction in FF's play: They say I am confbiasing him as Scum.. Even if I am (I'm not) He's doing the same fucking thing to me!

This makes him mafia because _____.

Because Oka hasnt asked for it yet. Its not that you didnt do it, its that you wouldnt do it when someone asked. If Oka needs more info from me on hose reads to satisfy his curiosity then he can ask. If I refuse then itd be like you and scummy. However that situation hasnt taken place yet so...

Also legit question. When you find out im town, where do you go from there?

Ninja- naw bro, using confbias to add to my scum read of you is not the same.

You are the one who was pushing me for not giving examples. So what makes you think who asked you what would be satisfied without examples? On the one hand, you are arguing that I am Scummy for not providing examples, which shows that you agree examples are necessary, otherwise there is no reason to bring it up in the first place. On the other hand, you are not providing examples yourself and basically representing that an overview of play is how you personally operate. So then why am I Scummy for operating in the same way that you are? You are looking for EXCUSES to SR me.

I think it's pretty valid for FF to scumread you for not talking about your reads. You're trying to make it about the specific way in which you or he talks about reads, which is irrelevant. You bogged the discussion down in inanities then scumread him for being bogged down in inanities. It's a neat rhetorical trick, but it's stupid.

VOTE: iceman

ill leave it here because i have no idea what you would want to policy lynch an IC and simultaneously compliment them

I don't like this vote from you Oka. Iceman is a newbie and he is going to have some newbie ideas. I remember the days of my first few games and I thought that I was going to change the world. I was going to make people play the game the way I thought it should be best played. I was going to lynch people to make them active and to make them change their evil ways by leading lynches on them no matter what. The idea that an IC shouldnt last very long in the game isn't without merit. Think about it. If IC is town they are the best player for town because of experience, scum will want to kill them to try and deny town their best player. If IC is scum they are never going to be killed if everyone just town reads the IC because they are teaching the game.

Most of the time getting to lynch an IC before endgame doesn't happen because scum kills them early, but when you think about it an IC playing late into the game is something to be suspect about. I don't think that there are many scum teams out there playing the long con with the IC and getting away with it, ya know?

Ugh. I hate this post. The idea put forth in this post is so very very bad. You don't lynch people because of their title, you lynch them because they are Scum, period.

FF is bad, which makes him mafia because _______.

FF's point is actually that it's not unreasonable for Iceman to have the idea that he had, and that he dislikes Oka's vote as a result. You're misconstruing his argument. Sure, make the argument that this is scummy of FF because something something TMI reads, but don't pretend that he's saying it's okay to PL the IC and scumread for that, that's just wrong.

it's not the pagecount and number of posts that makes it slow its the lack of scumhunting and wagon forming which im at fault for but nonetheless its giving a slow impression

Lack of scum hunting? Its day 1 and we are on page, what, 8? We are still very much in the feeling each other out stage for anyone to have really strong feelings about wanting to hang anyone. Shit we can have hunches and we can have inklings, but if you are looking for a full blown case this early then you are scum and need to die.

Also, at you talking about the lack of wagons forming when you commented on not wanting to join the one on flicker and would rather do your own thing over there.

So many things wrong with this post...

You should be Scum hunting regardless of what Day it is, for one.

Wanting wagons to form and not wanting to be on ANY wagon isn't a contradiction, seriously.

FF had been scumhunting. He was only saying that Oka didn't need to try to rev the game up, and that he thought it would be unrealistic for anyone to have a case-worthy scumread that early in the game. Why is this post scummy, Quick? You haven't put forth any reasoning, you're just saying that FF is wrong/bad/scummy.

Sure, I think a lot of the stuff you quoted from FF is pretty scummy, and guess what? I'm scumreading FF. But I think your reasons for thinking he's scum are pretty drab at best, horrific at worst, mostly nonexistent as far as what you have put into this thread, and I think you can do better.

Also, I see you are letting FF off the hook for doing meta (based on very few games) but telling everyone else not to do that. Is there a reason you feel FF is exempt from this?

I'm not. Why do you think that I am?

First off, I'm not having a quote war with you, I'm just not. Secondly, you are confbiasing me HARD right now. You realize pretty much everything I said about FF being Scummy you COMPLETELY dismissed right? Like WTAF is this? I cannot see you actually thinking this.

As far as you not having a problem with FF doing meta in such a shallow way, I can search your ISO for "Meta" if you want, but I am pretty sure you have just let FF go to town on that for no apparent reason whatsoever. If I am wrong about this, please quote where you told FF not to do that in this game or something similar at least.

This is a legit question: Do you just want to 1v1 me? I know Oka already propositioned nancy with the same ask, but I think we might just have to. I don't mind being scumread, but something about you or your posting makes me want to

I am more than willing to make this about just you and I so that one of us is out of the game today.

[Quick]

I was skimming through Trinity’s ISO, because I wanted to see their progression on me being their top scum…

In 671 they said they had me as an original townlean, but then moved down to null because my activity tapered off

On top of this, they have talked a lot about their activity being down and that they need time, but then they move me down to null because I lost activity…

Also, in 1157 they mark me as MOST LIKELY to flip mafia, without talking about me ONCE from 671 until 1157

I dont understand this progression at all and it irks me that someone moves me from town > Null because activity, then moves me to top scum without talking about me once.




I am likely gonna do an oka ISO skim, unless there is something else important, i ahve precisely 45 minutes to be active

You should probably ISO either me or FF and give thoughts there, Plz and thank you.

[OkaPoka]

Can I join Quick's team so its a temporary 2v1 so you can answer my question of:

How can you be an accurate judge of my day 1 meta then?

How am I misrepping Iceman?

[Eragon]

ok i'll ISO you and if i have more time i'll move to FF

[nancy]

We're not lynching either of you, we're lynching Trinity.

[Quick]

First off, I'm not having a quote war with you, I'm just not. Secondly, you are confbiasing me HARD right now. You realize pretty much everything I said about FF being Scummy you COMPLETELY dismissed right? Like WTAF is this? I cannot see you actually thinking this.

As far as you not having a problem with FF doing meta in such a shallow way, I can search your ISO for "Meta" if you want, but I am pretty sure you have just let FF go to town on that for no apparent reason whatsoever. If I am wrong about this, please quote where you told FF not to do that in this game or something similar at least.

This is a legit question: Do you just want to 1v1 me? I know Oka already propositioned nancy with the same ask, but I think we might just have to. I don't mind being scumread, but something about you or your posting makes me want to

I am more than willing to make this about just you and I so that one of us is out of the game today.

Dude, I already know what you are doing and I am not going to let it bother me. I think you are so full of shit it's not even funny and I think that because you are saying I am trying to make this just between us so fucking wrong it's honestly unfucking believable.

Like I really REALLY can't see the shit you are doing as a legit thought. It just so SOOO looks like you are trying to get under my skin and piss me off. I am not pissed at the moment, but I might get there if you keep this kind of shit up where you are saying I am trying to just make this about me and you. I am NOT just trying to make this about me and I can just sense the ooze of bull shit coming from you for saying this.

[Formerfish]

So, no?