White Flag - TM2020

[Formerfish]

I am uncharacteristically angry at this entire playerlist

Why?

[Auro]

I am uncharacteristically angry at this entire playerlist

Why?

They're not lynching me.

[Auro]

Oh wait Joan=molla not Cheeky.

Idk if you were trying to answer me yet but the quote above is about your read on Joan.

Apologies, I didn't catch that.
I don't think Molla is "obv town", but I'm not concerned about that slot right now.

The timing of Kitty's NSG vote strikes me as very towny.

[Formerfish]

I'm sorry if I'm displaying a severe lack of engagement to anyone's ideas. I'm pretty fixated on FF scum and need help seeing where I'm going wrong if that's the case before being able to see Auro scum (due to FFs hop onto the wagon.)

Did you ever respond to my post about why my read on your slot changed? You mentioned never seeing my reasons so I requoted a few times showing you where I talked about it. Care to engage me on that, or do you just want to dance around me this whole time and never let me cut in?

Pedit- Auro- is that the real reason, or are you being cheeky(not teeky)?

[Formerfish]

Are you guys discussing my posts in the scum PT or something? I'm constantly saying "ITS NOT SCUMMY, ITS TOWNY AND I DO IT AS TOWN" and all you guys keep changing it to "ik scummy lulz but I willingly did it in town games and I protect my meta and my buddies here townread me to protect meta hehehehe"

Nice attempt at shade.

"ITS NOT SCUMMY, ITS TOWNY AND I DO IT AS TOWN" but you also do it as scum, which youve said, so we have to figure out if this is a time where you are doing it as town or scum.

What arent you getting about this?

Its like you dont grasp basic ideas of this game. First it was the bad chainsaw defense and now its you telling us that while you do things as both alignments we shoud trust that you are town here because reasons...

[Formerfish]

Okay let's try something different. Probabilistically speaking, one of Dann, Dunn, and I must be town, right? And if none of them think my style is anti-town, there you go: a town perspective who thinks I'm not anti-town. So perhaps you could be wrong?

Town can have their agency captured by scum without knowing it. You saying that town feeling a certain way about you makes you town is a bad logical argument to make. But you seem to enjoy making arguments with logical inconsistencies, like how someone attacking someone you tr is scummy.

[Auro]

You're having a very poor grasp of basic reasoning, FormerFish.

So if I do it as both town and scum, you accept that *scumreading* me for it is equally bad, yeah? Where'd I say you should townread me for it? All I'm saying is that it's not a valid attack.

And no, you have a very wrong understanding of the chainsaw defense. We can talk about that post game.

[Auro]

But you seem to enjoy making arguments with logical inconsistencies, like how someone attacking someone you tr is scummy

I explained this in context, you admitted you had changed your viewpoint given context, yet you're bringing up this again?

[KittyMo]

Yes, and Dunn's reasoning is that for *her* it's more town indicative than scum indicative - if she were scum she'd drum up some opposition to the wagon, etc, wouldn't sheep and lurk away.

Would you want to lynch her, if not me?

Do you have any meta experience with her? Where exactly were you getting that as scum would she "drum up opposition" to the wagon? Prior to finding out she was going to be replaced, but after I corrected you on the context of the wagon, to what extent did that move the needle on your read there or willingness to lynch her?

I am still looking for specific insight into this specific statement you made about Joan.

If you're not able to dig to get the context back then whatever, come back to it later.

I just want to make it clear that "I'm not concerned about BBmolla right now" is not answering my question.

I already brought up to you that you were wrong about the vote count when making this read. Your response was basically that your thought that she was very slightly town and not someone you wanted to lynch, regardless. And then I looked back at it and realized that you had gone even further than I realized in terms of making logical leaps about what Joan's motivations were for blank voting. Reminder: Dunnstral's read was "Not trying to impede the gobble wagon by arguing semantics or complaining about the game = towny".

[Formerfish]

If she is scum then wouldn't her team make shes in here making noise so she doesnt take this heat? If she is town then they probably assume that they can borrow her for the time being with the idea that she can come in here and town it up when she needs to.

I've addressed this.
If she's scum she'd be held accountable for her pushes, she'd take heat for driving a mislynch.
If she's town she's a prime target for a N1 kill, meaning she'd want to have some impact on the game - making her refusal to play D1 strange.

I dunno, I think there is a good chance that if she really thinks shes going to die tonight that maybe her not doing anything d1 is a decent strategy.

Think about it. If she try-hards today and comes up with a bunch of solid reads, it almost certainly seals her fate tonight. And then we move on and who really listens to dead people when they die?

If she lays low and lets us progress the game scum is going to be forced to make a choice between taking out a vocal town leader from today, or NSG who could potentially be a leader in the future. This gives her the best chance to get to d2 as town imo.

[Auro]

Town can have their agency captured by scum without knowing it. You saying that town feeling a certain way about you makes you town is a bad logical argument to make

Oh, so now town has a false perspective because I lulled them and robbed them of their agency... versus Espeonage simply being incorrect.

[Formerfish]

You're having a very poor grasp of basic reasoning, FormerFish.

So if I do it as both town and scum, you accept that *scumreading* me for it is equally bad, yeah? Where'd I say you should townread me for it? All I'm saying is that it's not a valid attack.

And no, you have a very wrong understanding of the chainsaw defense. We can talk about that post game.

No, i dont think i so.

Finding you scummy for something you do as both alignments is not bad reasoning, its reasoning you dont like. I could find you scummy because you have 4 letters in your name, thatd be bad reasoning, funny though, it wouldnt always be wrong.

And i would like you to explain how i got the chainsaw defense wrong. Hell, anyone could have told me that i had it wrong when i mentioned it. Someone could have cosigned on your telling me i had it wrong. Radio silence from everyone but you. If im wrong tell me how, dont hang this shit on the line to be aired out later once it doesnt matter.

[Auro]

I am still looking for specific insight into this specific statement you made about Joan. If you're not able to dig to get the context back then whatever, come back to it later. I just want to make it clear that "I'm not concerned about BBmolla right now" is not answering my question.

I have some meta experience with Joan. I trust Dunn's reasoning given he has a lot more meta experience with her (to my knowledge). I recall that Gob was being pushed at that time, even if he wasn't the biggest wagon.

Yes, it's somewhat a logical leap. And because it was a leap, it only took her to "very slightly town". What about it?

[Formerfish]

But you seem to enjoy making arguments with logical inconsistencies, like how someone attacking someone you tr is scummy

I explained this in context, you admitted you had changed your viewpoint given context, yet you're bringing up this again?

I never said a chainsaw defense wasnt scummy.

[Formerfish]

Town can have their agency captured by scum without knowing it. You saying that town feeling a certain way about you makes you town is a bad logical argument to make

Oh, so now town has a false perspective because I lulled them and robbed them of their agency... versus Espeonage simply being incorrect.

If someone is an IC does that make everything they say gospel? You are acting like town can never be wrong about a read and therefore we should tr you because someone you tr does?

[Auro]

Finding you scummy for something you do as both alignments is not bad reasoning, its reasoning you dont like. I could find you scummy because you have 4 letters in your name, thatd be bad reasoning, funny though, it wouldnt always be wrong.

And i would like you to explain how i got the chainsaw defense wrong. Hell, anyone could have told me that i had it wrong when i mentioned it. Someone could have cosigned on your telling me i had it wrong. Radio silence from everyone but you. If im wrong tell me how, dont hang this shit on the line to be aired out later once it doesnt matter.

There was no reasoning though, just empty attacks calling it scummy without being able to explain why.

Sure, I'll explain why your chainsaw defense argument was incorrect. Hold on.

[Dannflor]

Finding you scummy for something you do as both alignments is not bad reasoning, its reasoning you dont like.

this doesn't make sense

if something is an element of both a player's town game and scum game then doesn't that by definition make it NAI

[Formerfish]

Finding you scummy for something you do as both alignments is not bad reasoning, its reasoning you dont like.

this doesn't make sense

if something is an element of both a player's town game and scum game then doesn't that by definition make it NAI

You dont have personal tells that you look for? How do we ever figure out anyone is scum without PR help if we dont figure these nuances out for ourselves during day play. This game especially.

[Auro]

If someone is an IC does that make everything they say gospel? You are acting like town can never be wrong about a read and therefore we should tr you because someone you tr does?

No, but: you should realize that there's at least one reasonable town perspective that thinks Auro is being pro-town, and reassess whether your accusations that he's anti-town carry as much merit as you think it does.

[Formerfish]

There was no reasoning though

You did something that someone found scummy.

You said thats not scummy, i do that as town too.

People use their own thought process to come to a conclusion based off this and your personal defense.

Its not bad, you just dont like it.

How do you find scum?

[Formerfish]

Sure, I'll explain why your chainsaw defense argument was incorrect. Hold on.

I thought you were answering this here.

[Auro]

You said thats not scummy, i do that as town too

Wrong.

I said "It's not scummy AND I do it as town too"
Independently of me doing it as town, it's also pro-town and not scummy.

[Formerfish]

If someone is an IC does that make everything they say gospel? You are acting like town can never be wrong about a read and therefore we should tr you because someone you tr does?

No, but: you should realize that there's at least

one

reasonable town perspective that thinks Auro is being pro-town, and reassess whether your accusations that he's anti-town carry as much merit as you think it does.

There are multiple people telling you the opposite and you refuse to listen, but you pick out one opinion and want us to change how we see.

How egotistical are you?

[Formerfish]

Sure, I'll explain why your chainsaw defense argument was incorrect. Hold on.

I thought you were answering this here.

[Dannflor]

FF what are you hoping to get out of this debate?