Newbie 1988 | Octopus | Over

[Plotinus]

Official Vote Count 1.10

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Lynching

With 9 votes in play, it takes 5 to lynch.

CheekyTeeky

(3): Tapiocaphobe, TrueSoulEnergy, Crush

TrueSoulEnergy

(2): LuckyLuciano, CheekyTeeky

LuckyLuciano

(2): Homura, Ph0enix

Titus

(1): Karnage

Karnage

(1): Titus

Not Voting

(0):

None.

Deadline:

(expired on 2020-03-07 22:45:00).

Mod notes:

Crush is the new QuantumQuasar. Tapiocaphobe is being replaced.[/area]

[Ph0enix]

@TSE: Could you answer 253 and 255?

[Ph0enix]

@Homura: Your slot's vote is still on LL. Is it intentional or you have forgotten it's there?

[Titus]

VOTE: Cheeky

L minus 1

[Ph0enix]

Upon rereading, I really don't like the push on TSE. I find LL focused too much on the 3 posts he was talking about in 201. Do I like the posts? Not really. Am I voting someone solely because of them? Hell no. The fact that Cheeky was quick to change her vote after LL's post rubs me the wrong way as well. I'm more concerned that TSE's voted Cheeky and I still don't know exactly why. Hopefully upon him answering my question in a previous post it will make more sense.

@TSE: Did you elaborate on your Karnage SR? Quote the post if I've missed it, share your thoughts if not.

[Ph0enix]

Lynchpool of {Karnage, Tapioca!slot, Phoenix}. Low confidence on most reads.

Could you elaborate?

[Ph0enix]

VOTE: Cheeky

L minus 1

What made you move your vote from Karnage?

[Titus]

VOTE: Cheeky

L minus 1

What made you move your vote from Karnage?

Deadline

[TrueSoulEnergy]

Re-read last night and digested a bit.

Think LL is hard-tunneling town. TSE is town. Cheeky is town. Titus is maybe town, but nebulous. QQ/Crush might be town, but I want to see content I can actually parse.

Earlier Phoenix townlean might be wrong. Lynchpool of {Karnage, Tapioca!slot, Phoenix}. Low confidence on most reads.

Could you elaborate on your Cheeky read?

Feel she's trying to sort and has been the most transparent spot in the game. She's elaborating on her reads and answering questions. Significant in a stagnant gamestate where it would be opportune for scum to blend in. Reads are in conflict, but considering the lack of content from most players that's to be expected.

Fair.

[TrueSoulEnergy]

VOTE: CheekyTeeky

I think there playing in their scum meta.

LL is Town.

I dont know about their meta but I didn't like 205

Wow nice entrance, I'm sold. Both on LL being town and TSE

having no WIM

because he's

scum here.

VOTE: TSE

LL is this your first game of mafia?

@CheekyTeeky

Elaborate on Bolded.

Cheeky still refuses to respond to this.
So until they do I’m never going to Unvote them.

[TrueSoulEnergy]

VOTE: Cheeky

L minus 1

What made you move your vote from Karnage?

Deadline

We have a little over 2 days left no?

[Titus]

VOTE: Cheeky

L minus 1

What made you move your vote from Karnage?

Deadline

We have a little over 2 days left no?

We do. I don't want a deadline scramble if Cheeky claims a PR.

[Ph0enix]

Cheeky still refuses to respond to this.
So until they do I’m never going to Unvote them.

Fair enough.

[Plotinus]

LuckyLuciano¹ has been prodded and has (expired on 2020-03-06 13:25:24) to post before I start looking for a replacement.

[Plotinus]

When I get a replacement for tapioca, the deadline will be extended so they'll have 2 days to catch up.

[Crush]

Ok I've somewhat caught up, haven't really got the chance to really analyze everything but I guess that will have to wait until D2 or later. So far I actually quite dislike a lot of slots, of which I dislike Cheeky the most. Cheeky, would you say that you are someone that's easy to convince/too agreeable? Because you have voted for a lot of players D1 and to me it feels like you're trying to catch every wave that might hit the shore. Do you really think LL's post was that good to immediately let go of your Titus vote?

The Homura slot had a lot of posts I can't really place in the early pages, a lot of fluff and I also really hate meta arguments especially in a noobie game. Tapio slot had some questionable posts and seems also easily swayed. Karnage is still kinda whatever to me. I do like the #201 but I dislike the fixedness in his reads, still I've seen some town players do this in the games I've played years ago and since I still do like the effort and analysis LL is a town lean for now. To me the Phoenix slot isn't that noteworthy right now, which make the early TR other players have given him (before like pag 10'ish, I will have to look up later who exactly these players were) strange to me. The only minor thing I dislike in this slot is the seriousness he used in approaching my slot. TSE feels meh to me, I didn't particularly like the 'mafioso' thing and I think the constant formation of teams on D1 isn't that relevant, feels like a way to add to your postcount without really contributing. I like Titus the most aside from LL, mainly because of the early interactions regarding the 'gut vote' and the good cop bad cop thing.

So for me now: town leaning LL, Titus. Mafia leaning: Tapio, maybe Homura, maybe TSE but mainly VOTE: Cheeky

How is my making meta arguments scum-indicative? Especially when it was perfectly applicable in the context I presented it in?

I don't mafia lean your slot because of meta arguments, I just don't like meta arguments. Especially not in a newbie game because I, and probably more people, have never played with players in said meta read. I can't evaluate meta based arguments because I have no indication of their meta, so for me meta arguments contribute null to the game. The main reason I lean mafia on your slot are the posts made by LunarRest regarding the Titus vote switch after RVS, it seemed like she was reaching for the sky. I dislike the entire theatre around that vote switch.

Don't like this entrance in general. Half of your reads are nullreads and you're sheeping the main wagon. Your reluctance to take stances on your reads is off.

Do you think Phoenix's approach to your slot is scum-indicative?

I actually think in some cases it might be. I could see a world in which mafia wants to present themselves as tryhard solvers by engaging with the town's clown (with all due respect QQ). But yeah it's definitely not the strongest of reasons, I think it's stranger that Phoenix got a few early TRs but I don't know to what conclusions that would lead.

Also don't like this, saw someone post something along the lines of 'why would we lynch you (SE) instead of going for noobies, didnt like that either. Its a really easy way to completely kill what someone is saying, it might be true in a sense but it isnt cooperative at all.

How am I not cooperating? It's an actual thing that people who don't know me vote and me early are greater than rand town. I actually differentiated between two newbies in a recent newbie game I stomped because of their approaches to me. I liked you going for me at first but now it just feels like you're attempting to steam roll me based on the suspicion already surrounding my slot.

These particular posts do nothing for me. I'm not trying to steam roll you or anything, but my opinion on you won't change due to these kind of comments since I have no way to validate them. It's not like these posts make you more likely mafia in my eyes, same goes for the meta based arguments.

[Crush]

Also about the first part of #291 , I don't think most of my reads are null since I do lean (if only slightly) on most players. If you would interpret that as me null reading everyone that's fine, but don't expect me to develop all in reads D1 like LL does. I would also like to remind you that my vote on Cheeky made that wagon the leading one, I could also have voted for the equally big TSE and LL wagons.

[LuckyLuciano]

Scum is probably between TSE, Phoenix, Karnage, and Phi (Homura)

elaborate

Would the players who willingly signed up for this game, just perhaps, like to play the game?

Would the player who willingly replaced into this game, just perhaps, like to respond to the post below?

Scum is probably between TSE, Phoenix, Karnage, and Phi (Homura)

elaborate

@LL: Could you elaborate more on your scumreads, TSE excluded? Also, are you putting everyone you haven't townread as possible scum because you genuinely suspect them? Because if it's due to the fact that you have insufficient information for a given player, especially on D1, one usually gives them a null read. I mean, having 4 scumreads in the middle of D1 is a bit much, I find.

@Cheeky: Could you elaborate a bit more on your readslist in 223?

Same goes for TSE's townreads.

And LL's "scumbucket".

How many times are you two going to ask the same question before reading what I post? I've answered this three times, including in my first post in the game.

Spoiler:

I've pretty much caught up on the DP. I'm going to be heading to sleep soon though. My preliminary thoughts are as follows (These were all notes being posted in the order I took them):

- Leaning scum on TSE. If TSE is scum, we are playing setup A or B. #30 likely to come from scum within a PR mafia that is looking for town to hint that the Goon + Goon theory is wrong. Any town that knows the setup is not C would only know so because they are a power role.
-- Further, in my initial reading, an again in my rereading, while I agree that the usage of "mafioso" could be a town slip (LR is a new player using the lingo he is used to, if the official lingo for mafioso on MS is Mafia Goon, then the term mafioso wouldn't be at the forefront of a new scum's mind when referring to mafia), I highly dislike it being called a "sorta" townslip. Either he believes it's a townslip or not. To even call this out as a town slip is rather acute analysis, and as town I believe he would read it more strongly. As mafia, he is incentivized to avoid heavily establishing townies as innocent. The whole post feels artificially constructed such for the reasons listed above, but also so that in event of a mislynch he can come back and say he read LR as a town early on in order to try and get town cred.
- Leaning town on QQ. This sort of play, in my experience, never comes from a truly new player. He either has experience on MS and is an alt account who actually shouldn't be in the game, or he has off-site experience. Either way, he's either trolling or actually trying to win. If he's trolling then it isn't work reading him. If he's trying to win, then there is a rationale behind his post. [I'm redacting the rest of my notes here as it is more beneficial to mafia than town.]

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Follow-up on TSE

- I dislike #31 and #35.
-- #31, TSE appears to be consistently avoiding taking a stance. Sure, it's the earliest stages of the game where reads are weakest, but that is even more reason for town to pursue their gut reads in order to generate discussion and establish behavioral reads. Mafia benefits from leaving as many doors open by avoiding a static advocacy. In my experience, players who stay light on their feet are more often mafia than town. As town, players are less likely to even consider the need to change their views until a reason to do so is presented. As a figure of speech, they navigate through the DP with their feet more firmly planted.
-- #35 Let's break down his logic. TSE claims that if there is a mafia PR listed in the mafia pm, then it would not be normal for a player who has read that mafia pm to use the term, "Mafioso." This is because, while "mafioso" may be their default lingo when referring to mafia, this would be subconsciously replaced by the specified name for the mafia role provided in the role pm. Therefore, either (1) there is no mafia power role in the mafia pm, or (2) LR is town and has not read the mafia pm. (1) is a faulty deduction because even lacking a power role, the mafia pm should still state that the players are mafia goons, and that specified name for the mafia players would still override "mafioso" in LR's subconscious. As TSE is an SE player, it's possible that he has made this logical mistake before in the past. If he can go through his own meta and show an instance in which he's done so as town, I would read this as NAI. Absent a case of him having done this before as town, it feels like artificial analysis and he looks like scum to me.

-----

- Titus is probably town. Of all players in the game, they have shown the most consistent conviction in their reads and development thereof. Even when people cling to RVS, Titus is trying to progress the game so that the town have substantive interactions to build reads off of.

-----

- Cheeky is also town; for similar reasons as Titus.

-----

- Scum is probably between TSE, Phoenix, Karnage, and Phi (Homura). Even though the Phi slot hasn't posted substance yet,

I'm leaning town on everyone else so far so by PoE he's in this group.

Reads can change later on, but I'm fine with a DP1 lynch of any of the above pending reasons to vote otherwise. As TSE is my strongest scumread atm, VOTE: TSE.

My only scumread is TSE. My scumbucket, or the pool of players who I currently think could be scum, consists of 4 players. I'm willing to lynch any of the 4 this DP, but I'd prefer TSE.

Spoiler:

@LL, I like your entry.

Can you elaborate on why Cheeky is town? I don't see it.

14 This comes on strong and possible aggressive. Even though it's meant to be humorous and lackadaisical, I find it less likely for mafia to enter like this.
15 NAI
23 I thought the exact same thing while obvserving. You said you would put on your SE hat when a wagon started, and then moved to stop the wagon the moment it started picking up momentum. I understand why you ($Titus) hopped off the wagon and by no mean think it was the wrong move, but I also thought it was odd just like Cheeky did here. With me having access to my own role pm and knowing I'm town, and having thought that before even having a role pm (I think as a town while observing), this post makes me lean town on Cheeky through transposition. Also, it looks here like Cheeky is natural building reads.
39 NAI
40 NAI
41 Lean town. This read is the converse of why I lean town on TSE in 35
42 Null. Could have enough reasons now to justify a vote (town) or finally have someone to scapegoat if things go south (mafia).
93 Null. Both town and mafia have reason to drop votes on people using this sort of shtick.
95 Null. I'd need to read Cheeky's meta for this. In my experience, mafia are more likely to invoke OMGUS, but - and this is purely anecdotal and not meant to offend anyone - so are women of any alignment.
96 Null. Titus has been her target all game, it makes sense why QQ would be a consideration at this point.
102 Lean town. I thought this while observing as well. Lean town by transposition.
105 Lean town. Mafia doesn't want to generate discussion as to why their mislynch target is town.
126 NAI
127 Lean town. Still trying to generate content in the DP to base the final lynch vote on. More content is better for town.
134 NAI.
136 Lean town. Non-leading and non-aggressive questioning that gives an opportunity for someone she suspect's to give an unfiltered answer that might be alignment indicative.
141 Null. I'd like to see a bit more prodding here from town. The overall state of the game at the time of this post explains the dispassion, however.
143 Lean town. Scum could use QQ as an easy lynch, but instead Cheeky is leveling with QQ, and trying to get players to take meaningful stances. All the while Cheeky is taking a meaningful stance pretty consistently, much like I said Titus has been. Note how these two contrast from TSE, who stays light on his feet even when making reads.
144 Null. If 141 is coming from town|cheeky, this this post is town.
145 Null.
154 Lean town. I would feel the same way if I was in the game already playing as town trying to be productive and everyone else is either posting nonsense or still needs to catch up to contribute.
155 Lean town. Despite ^above, still pushing the DP forward.
181 Null. The actual gameplay pattern cheeky mentions, however, I believe is accurate. In beginner games hosted on my former site, experienced players tended to avoid other experienced players as scum and opted to NK them early.
182 Lean town. While town take firm stances and scum do not, town still changes their stance when a reason arises to do so. Scum have to force cases to make them work and are far more likely to tunnel, and less likely to drop such an easy lynch target as QQ so lightly.
184 Lean town. Consistent with her play thus far and the reasons listed above.
191 Lean town. Wants information to act off of, but understands the value of a reaction test and doesn't try to tear it down so that they can be in-the-know.
198 Lean town. As always, trying to generate content.
199 Lean town. See above.
205 Null. Is it the case on mafiascum that scum players never make cases early?
207 NAI.
208 Lean scum. This is the one post I don't really like. If this is true, why not bring it up before I entered the game? Could be null, and probably is, but explaining why is less valuable than seeing how @Cheeky responds.

My only scumread is TSE. My scumbucket, or the pool of players who I currently think could be scum, consists of 4 players. I'm willing to lynch any of the 4 this DP, but I'd prefer TSE.

So in the scenario where you no longer SR TSE, you are going to want to lynch anyone of the other 3 despite you not SRing them?

Yes. Lynches provide information. I'd rather lynch using a random number generator DP1 than no lynch, absent a setup that makes a no lynch advantageous. Granted that we have content to analyze, we've moved beyond the necessity of using RNG to determine a lynch target and have reasons to lynch or not lynch certain players based upon their behavior.

Everyone outside of the 4 players I've mentioned have exhibited behavior or insight that leads me to not want to lynch them on DP1. I think that lynching on DP1 is good, and I think that lynching one of the 3 players in my bucket that I do null read provides more value than lynching a player I town read.

This value is generated through multiple worlds theory. Assuming players who act town are town more often than not, and players who do not are town less often than so, lynching a player who does not act town will benefit the town in more worlds than it does not, and vice versa.

[LuckyLuciano]

VOTE: CheekyTeeky

I think there playing in their scum meta.

LL is Town.

I dont know about their meta but I didn't like 205

Wow nice entrance, I'm sold. Both on LL being town and TSE

having no WIM

because he's

scum here.

VOTE: TSE

LL is this your first game of mafia?

@CheekyTeeky

Elaborate on Bolded.

Cheeky still refuses to respond to this.
So until they do I’m never going to Unvote them.

This was answered days ago.

This is my first game on MS. I've played for a few years on the now defunt debate.org. It's been about a year or so since I've played, however. What's WIM?

I suppose that explains why you present so eloquently. WIM is Want It More, in the context of my usage I would translate as "passion" or "enthusiasm"

I have played with TSE and have found that he's a very

passionate

player as town. He hasn't been hitting the right notes for me this game to townread him as yet so why not poke the bear?

[TrueSoulEnergy]

@LL
Looking over my recent posts.
What are your thoughts?

[TrueSoulEnergy]

VOTE: CheekyTeeky

I think there playing in their scum meta.

LL is Town.

I dont know about their meta but I didn't like 205

Wow nice entrance, I'm sold. Both on LL being town and TSE

having no WIM

because he's

scum here.

VOTE: TSE

LL is this your first game of mafia?

@CheekyTeeky

Elaborate on Bolded.

Cheeky still refuses to respond to this.
So until they do I’m never going to Unvote them.

This was answered days ago.

This is my first game on MS. I've played for a few years on the now defunt debate.org. It's been about a year or so since I've played, however. What's WIM?

I suppose that explains why you present so eloquently. WIM is Want It More, in the context of my usage I would translate as "passion" or "enthusiasm"

I have played with TSE and have found that he's a very

passionate

player as town. He hasn't been hitting the right notes for me this game to townread him as yet so why not poke the bear?

Ah. Must have missed it.

VOTE: Karnage

[LuckyLuciano]

I recommend everyone who is town or phoenix or scum on cheeky to read through https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=81548. Both were town in that game, yet Cheeky's play is identical to here and Phoenix's is far different. Focus primarily on Phoenix's conviction and the aggressiveness in his play. Literally everything he has posted this game has been either fluff and/or non-accusatory. The phrase "I believe" and its variants are omni-present when town!phoenix plays yet have been used 0 times this game. Further, there is a major contradiction between his town play in that game and his opening to this game. https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11445086 He specifically stated,

So I decided to unvote Chazary in order to avoid starting some kind of wagon as with Gyro.

When questioned by Farren,

Why do you want to avoid starting wagons? Or is it something specific about not wanting to start a wagon on chazary specifically?

He responded,

Oh no, it's not player-related. I'm just not a fan of them during RVS, I don't believe they do a good job in providing people with information, and in our case, considering we're in a Newbie game, some players who are less experienced and are at the receiving end of a wagon may panic and slip up because of that, regardless of alignment, which, considering the ratio between Town and Mafia players, is not in Town's favor.

Yet, this game he willingly let the wagon on Tapi, a new player, build immediately upon game start without hesitation and without unvoting, which according to his past game, he believes would have been the pro-town move.

In addition, while I've had Phoenix as gut-scum all game due to his noncommittal play and unnecessary fluffing, me straight out saying he was scum was a reaction test. His reaction of hard OMGUS here directly contradicts the way town!phoenix reacted in that game to being scumread,

So I'll assume my response was unsatisfactory and you still suspect me. Quite interesting.

UNVOTE: TSE VOTE: Phoenix.

[LuckyLuciano]

@LL
Looking over my recent posts.
What are your thoughts?

I think you, among others, are giving Phoenix far too much towncred for "contributing" when I cannot find one single read he's given in his iso. Given my recent dig into his meta showing that he would rather disrupt wagons on new players by unvoting than let them build, and your town-read on Tapi, are you willing to believe that Phoenix not unvoting Tapi to stop the wagon, and instead asking Titus for their opinion on the wagon, looks at least partially SvT?

[TrueSoulEnergy]

@LL
Looking over my recent posts.
What are your thoughts?

I think you, among others, are giving Phoenix far too much towncred for "contributing" when I cannot find one single read he's given in his iso. Given my recent dig into his meta showing that he would rather disrupt wagons on new players by unvoting than let them build, and your town-read on Tapi, are you willing to believe that Phoenix not unvoting Tapi to stop the wagon, and instead asking Titus for their opinion on the wagon, looks at least partially SvT?

Your content is like that of Phoenix.
You guys are good posters.
The more I think of it. I suppose it isn’t a great reason to Town read them for.

[LuckyLuciano]

I think the rest of my reads are pretty self-explanatory.

What's your read of me, Cheeky?

I’m liking Titus enthusiasm this game.
LL had a Townie entrance
Phoenix is contributioning quite a bit. In a more Townie way then scummy.
Tap’s interaction with me felt Genuine Town.

Same question for you.

Is this valuable information? Why?