Mini Theme 2161: Undertale C Open - Chara's Folly

[Chara]

you have such much to learn about matters of the heart. we should hydra sometime.

respectfully i'm too enamored to play mafia with you ever again, thanks/sorry

[Chara]

I think we should all just sheep tanner.

because it'd be really funny to watch datisi wilt under the pressure and it will conf-town him for real.

And cuz I love datisi <3

you're so mean.
i do miss Tanner, though. i'm assuming he's the type not to post much on weekends.

i should have gone to bed instead of posting that Prism thing. this is where i'm at. i'm reduced to nothing. if i'm going to ruin my sleep i should be doing something productive, like signing my life away to Genshin Impact.

[Prism]

i've started thinking Prism is scum again because the disappointment is hitting that hard. like, i was locktown before,

but now all of the progressions Prism said they had no problem with previously are bad.

Fundamentally untrue, I have been openly skeptical of your reads for a long time, dating back to my very first "Tayl0r/Chara" theory, and I have made it extremely clear that what I have found town in your ISO has much more to do with how genuine your reactions are in the moment than anything to do with your reads.

Here's some samples:

FWIW I'm pretty sure I'm going on Taylor too, I'm more just bothered in that I know Hectic/Tayl0r isn't right.

I'm wrong on one of Hectic/Taylor. I just don't know which. If Tayl0r is scum, it might not matter.

Of all the town, Chara is the only one that isn't extremely town for their votes and progressions, but more for their extremely genuine reactions to events.

Their reaction to me was super good, and I put them at locktown for it...but once again every single player in this game is town.

Which leaves me again wondering if they're the Bodhi to my Johnny Utah

Chara's tone is exceptional. I don't just mean them sucking up to me and deflecting questions with compliments. I mean constantly interacting with several people in the game and reacting to events. Skimming a few scumgames made their ability to fabricate nuance and genuine reactions, and fast, very clear. Regardless of whether they're town this game, this approach needs to go in the trash.

But the question is: Can I remove all of that entirely, and just simple yes/no evaluate them on this question instead:

are their reads and the stances they've taken town? I already know there's one progression in general (Late Day 1 Taylor) that make me suspect no.

From when I first started to suspect it was you/Tayl0r:

This makes so much sense if Tayl0r is the Chara. Their entire push on Chara doesn't seem like they actually read the slot at all. Tayl0r says Puppy is their top SR, then never really pushes it while they flop over to catboi and then Chara. They're too sure that me/catboi are town. I don't like this.

Chara's side of the interactions are pretty decent, but then there's 882. Tayl0r suddenly being the closest thing to a scumread is extremely out of left field. I don't like the justification for Tayl0r +town they give in 1017

The only question here is: Why not push Lavender?

Hm.

803 and 817 does give some background to the Taylor "closest thing to a scumread" line. I didn't find this that implausible to fake at first glance but it does provide background. But there's still their pings on Puppy, the pings on Elements very early, and they've already started taking a look at redtea.

948 explains that they're mostly reverting to the Elements read/not seeing anything town from beeboy as reasons for the vote....but the vote in 906 was very presence/content-oriented.

Hm. Hm. Hm. Need to review 120s and 160.

I've also made it extremely clear that I think your ability to react in seemingly genuine ways in real time is superb, and I've specifically said repeatedly it is the main reason to find you town despite knowing this is in your arsenal. You acknowledge this is a stance of mine later in the post, I don't think I need to prove this.

and it looks good and all because they're going through the whole game again and putting in an admirable mountain of effort, but the conclusion is so backwards.
even things like talking about how my redtea suspicion was a "brilliant" move for scum me, and giving this analysis for why. and when pointed out that i don't play the game this way and Prism knows it, they say they still believe in their reasoning and that i must have intuitively made the best choice. where's the basis in my ability to do something as magical as that?

I mean I can't really prove which way I'm reading the game but I do want to note that I actually went back to reread all of Day 1 under the mindset that you were town. This made how bad I found the early Puppy/Ele interactions extremely jarring.

and Prism can say whatever they want about my play, really, and can toss away the ISO that they've admitted is absurdly towny, again by using the prequel game to say that i'm just that good at scum, so any towniness in my posts must be faked.

This actually wasn't just the prequel game, I did a full meta dive and found numerous games that had the same ingratiating tone. I'm pretty sure the game that alerted me to this is

vonflare lasertag[/url].

it's weird that upon reread, it's not that Prism found some things that show i'm actually scum. it's that upon reread, my

entire ISO

is suspect. how is that realistic? surely Prism should be able to recognize some measure of bias from a conclusion like that. not just my beeboy progression, not just my Prism progression, but every stance i've taken is now suspect? Prism even made a comment about how "we both know i'm going to reach your Taylor progression and find more evidence". that's not good-faith hunting, that's looking for evidence that fits me being scum.

...Is this really weird that I'm finding your interactions with a now-flipped scum in a new light, reading the game progressively rather than ISO, and making a connection in timing that is obviously brand new and that I've never brought up before?

Me pressuring/bantering with you with the "we both know" really doesn't say anything other than...I know there's more upcoming that I won't like, and have a history of not liking. As my quotes above show, I have always been extremely skeptical of that Taylor read.

it also feels like they're using Puppy scum as an excuse to say that because Puppy was townread and was scum, a towny ISO can be disregarded. Chara can be scum, it could have fooled me this hard because Puppy managed it, right?

? Literally was paranoid of you despite finding your tone extremely town all of Day 2, well before Puppy flip. It's not because of Puppy, it's because it's you and your progressions to me are a lot more sketchy than anyone else's.

[Prism]

ie. why is this not performative, the counterpoint you list is "well why would prism try and miselim me now?" (answer: i don't until much later, i take a hectic or pooky vote)

but this doesn't address any of the points you made. did you magically remember all of my posts about your progressions that slipped your mind in a haze or what?

er, no? i don't know what you mean by the last paragraph, but if you're telling me scum Prism would indeed be doing what you're doing now... well, great, then. i still don't think you're mafia.

I want you to explain in your own words why you think your post was garbage.

The point you gave to counter me being scum-which seemed to be "Why does Prism push me?"-had nothing to do with anything you brought up. It was a separate point, even if you find it persuasive, that doesn't

make your other points garbage

[Chara]

actually, if i'm going to sheep anyone, it's going to be Tweet. i'll even sheep them on Krazy being town, to spite my ex.

god, i hate all of my own reads. every time i try to suspect Pooky, i remember how he talked about not wanting to be miselimed in endgame over Hectic, and how he'd rather go down before Hectic. that is going to haunt me. is that something you just fake?
actually, that's a question i can actually ask, is Pooky's scum AtE that on point? for anyone who knows.

[Tanner]

beetlejuice?

i do miss Tanner, though. i'm assuming he's the type not to post much on weekends.

i'm ~reading along~, i just don't think i have anything to say. need me for something?

[Chara]

I want you to explain in your own words why you think your post was garbage.

The point you gave to counter me being scum-which seemed to be "Why does Prism push me?"-had nothing to do with anything you brought up. It was a separate point, even if you find it persuasive, that doesn't make your other points garbage

as you can see by the post i just made about Pooky, one seemingly minor point can be persuasive enough to override all of my other points on a slot.

but that's not why i called it garbage, and i think continuing to go into this would just be depressing, so let's talk about something else.

[Chara]

beetlejuice?

i do miss Tanner, though. i'm assuming he's the type not to post much on weekends.

i'm ~reading along~, i just don't think i have anything to say. need me for something?

Tanner my soul is crying out can't you hear it yes i need you

[Prism]

Chara, regardless of what you are, whether you're feeling depressed as scum or depressed that I'm town driving you to the second straight misfight (as I do) while you don't even know who scum is either and oh god help us all

you're exceptional.

[Chara]

[Prism]

now that that's said

From the perspective of Chara town, I'm confused by what you're thinking and where you're really going here. You typed up the giant wall on me with a mix of tangible points and intangible suspicions. They disappeared with the "but why push me?" Maybe you called it garbage for lack of confidence or something. Maybe, after realizing I'm town despite those points, you didn't want me to tear down something that was more raw emotion/you really thought/worked on for awhile.

Your next step here seems to be to engage with others in dialogue. That's totally fair, not that much point talking to the tunneling moron. But like, you're openly confused as to who scum is, and you presumably know that it's one of your townreads even as you work your way around the circle of "Who do I sheep?" circle.

This sort of weird, "Try to dialogue with/sheep other townreads" just seems to be in contrast to the whole "I'm confused and doubting my townreads and who is scum, maybe Pooky?" bit

I'm sorry that I'm pretty brutal.

[Chara]

i don't feel there's any contrast. i don't have any paranoia about Tweet being scum. Tanner i have paranoia about, but i still want to hear from him. who else should i be talking to?

as for your first paragaph: i made that post all at once, stream of consciousness, entirely driven by frustration. i had no doubts you'd easily tear it down, which you did. the only point i really take issue with is the one where you bring up vonflare's laser tag, because you use it as an example of me being personable as scum when what i was talking about was being exceptionally good at scum vs. having one really good scumgame. i don't consider vonflare's game to be anything special, i got hit with plenty of suspicion. i'm always personable. er, usually.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

HEAL: Prism

[Chara]

i guess you mean an emotional contrast? like you find it weird that i'm simultaneously lost and also having fairly normal interactions with players that aren't you?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I’m all confuzzled about you and Hectic at the moment, can’t comprehend at all!

I’ll cry if Tanner or Prism is mafia (<_<)

same tbh ლ(¯ロ¯"ლ)

[Prism]

Vonflare's was just the one that came to mind, I would need to review again to really find more but my point in citing it was that I had a two-game sample size of your tone being very, very good even though this would be a step up

Also, I've done a bad job of sticking to "shelve the flirtation, this is a mafia game". To be blunt, I don't think this is acceptable, especially since I acknowledged it being a problem previously. Consider this my last warning to myself.

[Tanner]

Tanner i have paranoia about, but i still want to hear from him.

well the Tanner paranoia is gone, if it comes back later would someone please spray me with a water bottle and direct me to my own words? thank you.

[Isis]

Page 147 features a delayed votecount

[Chara]

i just checked the activity, because i was worried i was spamming too much.
i'm in fourth place. Prism, you have almost 850 posts. i'm not going to ask if you're okay but... should i call somebody? do you need assistance?

pedit: thanks Tanner. okay, so he's not scum, that makes things easier on me.

[Prism]

i guess you mean an emotional contrast? like you find it weird that i'm simultaneously lost and also having fairly normal interactions with players that aren't you?

I think this was a pretty incomplete thought of mine. The mindset I'm ascribing to you is that you seem to be doubting both yourself and your reads as town here, so I'm wondering what your next move is here.

Your read on MT is especially curious to me given its combination of strength and inability to back it. On an emotional level, we all have reads like this. On a rational level, we know that there's a limit to how much we can trust that.

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

god, i hate all of my own reads. every time i try to suspect Pooky, i remember how he talked about not wanting to be miselimed in endgame over Hectic, and how he'd rather go down before Hectic. that is going to haunt me. is that something you just fake?
actually, that's a question i can actually ask, is Pooky's scum AtE that on point? for anyone who knows.

my scum ate is pretty strong tbh

[Chara]

okay, that's enough bullshit.
HURT: Pooky
i'm thinking it's convincing but fakeable. i wish i knew Pooky better, but Hectic does and he also didn't appear shaken by it.

that's E-2 for the bear, i believe.

pedit: well, that's nice to hear.

[Tanner]

i'm looking over the "case" i brought up yesterday about why i thought puppy/suji wasn't s/s yesterday, and i'm still not convinced those two still point at non-s/s today. but i don't know anymore if it's confbias speaking.

chara, anything specific you wanted from me?

[PookyTheMagicalBear]

I'd like to have the chance to heal you before you murder me.

I've gotten 5 out of 7 so far and I'm just missing you & tweetie.

I am a Gifting Bear you see and I'd like each of you to have something from me for the hard days ahead.

[Chara]

i guess you mean an emotional contrast? like you find it weird that i'm simultaneously lost and also having fairly normal interactions with players that aren't you?

I think this was a pretty incomplete thought of mine. The mindset I'm ascribing to you is that you seem to be doubting both yourself and your reads as town here, so I'm wondering what your next move is here.

Your read on MT is especially curious to me given its combination of strength and inability to back it. On an emotional level, we all have reads like this. On a rational level, we know that there's a limit to how much we can trust that.

rationally, it's these sorts of reads i'm consistently correct about. i haven't been burned yet, so i'm going to trust myself on something i can so far provably trust myself on.
Puppy wasn't at this level, for example. i was suspicious of him, especially tonally, several times this game, but ultimately decided his Elements push and blatantly going for the spare were good enough reasons to read him really high.

i was doubting myself five minutes ago, i've decided i'm going to stop.
it's an emotional rollercoaster, but that's just tuesday.