Open 804: Popcorn Mafia Redux [Game Over!]

[Norfolk Boy1]

Rockhopper, have you moved on from batching up the 4 easiest scumreads?

[MUSHSHAGANA]

Realizing I forgot to address this.

I don't know MUSH. The simplest explanation I have for your own thoughts is that you suffer from overthinking.

I couldn't really follow half of the things you said either, so at some point you have to realize what you're saying is in some form incomprehensible. Critical thinking doesn't need to be at the expense of clarity

In case you didn't catch it: my brain is fucked up. This isn't overthinking for me, it is my default. It's incomprehensible because I am /incapable/ of thinking like other people. I literally /cannot/ be more clear than I already am, this is the hard limit when I'm explaining myself. It's not a choice I make. It is how it goes.

You might as well expect answers in perfect English when asking your pet dog about something.

[SirCakez]

So this post
I want to preface this by saying I DO NOT WANT TO RESTART THIS ARGUMENT
However I did say I would respond to it

This is why Imperium's defense is so bizarre to me.

What about our defense did you dislike?
What part of it was unreasonable?

It feels very unearned
Why are you going in to save someone so hard who (at the time) had made four posts?

You didn't answer either of our questions here.

I feel like I have answered this.
Nothing content wise in the defense was bad.
I'm looking at it in the context of the game.

You still have not addressed it. Waiting for specifics and "in the context of the game" is not specifics.

What part of the defense did you dislike in the context of the game? What part of the defense was unreasonable in the context of the game?

I feel you are not getting what I'm saying.
In the content of the initial wall about Norfolk itself, the reasons you use to claim the scumreads are undeserved are fine (although obviously I disagree). I can see the logic and arguments.
My dislike of the wall doesn't come from the reasoning used, but the fence-sitty aspects of it. It doesn't make sense to me to go to the lengths you did in that wall just to declare them as a nullread anyways (as I've said many many times). More than once in the wall you basically go "well that could be town or it could be scum"

Now it's looking like a non-zero chance Norfolk is getting shot here. If he flips red then you can say you were never actually defending him. If he flips town then you can say you were correct with your defense and go after the people you were shading in the wall. Regardless of outcome, it sets you up for the future. And it doesn't feel like a genuine opinion, but an out.

[SirCakez]

I liked a couple Cakez posts last night, and as we were laying down for bed last night Nacho said he thought cakez might be town after all, and my gut in liking some of his posts is at odds with my brain and the way he's been interacting with me and norfolk.

Cakez - If you are town here, you are super misreading me, misinterpreting and misrepresenting my posts. Misinterpreting me is one thing, but the misrepresentation feels purposeful and it feels like you're throwing the kitchen sink of misreps at me. So, like yesterday when I simplified and clarified the position I took earlier about the people reading norfolk, you called it a backpedal and lie, except I literally just simplified what I had previously stated. I didn't change any position, and it felt like even after pointing that out, you just decided to move the goal posts on me instead of recognizing that you misread or misinterpreted. And that feels scummy to me and completely unlike any way you've ever interacted with me in a game. It feels like what you were doing with Battle Mage in xeno when you were scum.

I literally turned to nacho several times yesterday and asked him if I was the crazy one because I don't think my position and points are that difficult to understand. I do not understand how if you are actually reading my posts in good faith that you are coming to the conclusions you are. I don't care if you suspect me; well I mean I don't particularly like being suspected when I'm town but it goes with the game, but I don't like when it feels super purposeful and it feels that way here. And not gonna lie, there's a part of me that thinks you're doing this to interfere with any influence we might have this game.

This is a reach out. It's not the greatest of reach outs because I don't like feeling misrepresented and then attacked for those misrepresentations nor do I trust your intentions and I'm begrudgingly admitting that even with that you might be town based on a few posts I have liked. But if those few posts are correct and were are both town, this game has a chance to get fucked sideways, and I don't want that. So, if you are town, please consider that you've completely misunderstood me.

Luckily I'm pretty sure town!Cakez is the only person in this playerlist bad enough to shoot us and I'm not yet entirely convinced town!Cakez is a thing.

Also c'mon I know you're above insulting me like this as town
Not good AtE

This is just a little example. This is not AtE, this is not even AtE's little brother. This is nacho trolling you. Even if it isn't him trolling you it's still not AtE.

But why would you think either of us would be above insulting you as town. I mean nacho would probably troll you and say this as scum or town, so it's not really all that alignment indicative for him. But if you thought this was me, why would you think it's more likely to come from scum? That makes absolutely no sense at all. I don't like actual insults and I don't like seeing people insulted, but I'm not perfect and when I get frustrated with people in a mafia game I do sometimes say things out of frustration that aren't very nice, and it's almost always when I'm town. I don't get frustrated in the same way as scum unless I feel personally attacked.

I'm not sure what you're getting at here
I think right now if Imp is scum here they are very worries about me mainly because the setup empowers me even if no one else believes my read

This is one of the posts that I gut liked you for, but woah are you soooooo not understanding anything about me at all. You clearly don't understand my scum game or how I think or feel about scum. I hate playing scum with a passion but I don't get super worried as scum, nor would I be worried about you. That is not a dig at you, I just wouldn't be worried. Even if you had the gun and were going to shoot me, I still wouldn't be worried.

In a world where I'm scum here, I decided to give the gun to the hydra who I believe reads me best in the game. This is an objective truth, and especially in this playerlist. Brain knows that I have respect for his ability to read me; I've talked about it before. I think notscience is also good at reading me, but I think that notty is probably going to be a little paranoid or less certain about reading friends this moment due to tenet and the college normal. So, if I'm scum, I agreed to give the gun to the people I think can read me the best and who is going into this game with probably some hesitation on town reading me in the first place, which means I've already gone into the game knowing that I could end up getting shot first if I'm unable to fool them. So, in this world, you don't concern me at all as I've already made contingency plans for going out first. In this world I've decided to make associatives to fuck with the shots that come after. I, in fact, expect to go out first in every scum game I play because I feel and have always felt super naked and obvious as scum.

In neither that make believe world or this real one am I concerned about you shooting me. You don't have a hero solve, you're just wrong.

I read through this all.
I think you two need to go off and do your own thing and we can move forwards from there.
I appreciate the reach-out but it doesn't alleviate all my concerns.

I will say I don't agree with your point about how you wouldn't give the gun to Netflix and Chill as scum here. If you are worried about a slot being able to catch you, the best time possible to give it to them is at game start, because it gives them the widest possible range of targets to shoot and (like many have said) they will be out of the game fairly early, barring some miracle like three straight scum shots. If you don't give them the gun, there lies the potential for N&C to go to endgame and be able to shoot you when they wouldn't otherwise due to lack of other targets.

[Tammy]

Where did I say I wouldn't give them the gun?

[SirCakez]

Oh, and one more thing. Anyone who townreads STT, I'm going to be looking through the lists. I would very much like you to explain yourselves. In great, exhaustive detail. Really beat the hell out of your belief that STT is town, /challenge yourself/, because I will throw down a /solid/ wager that you are wrong. Say, winner gets to control the loser's first shot when they inevitably get the gun (because this is gonna look /real/ bad for whoever is wrong, and they shouldn't trust themselves to hit shit anyway). I'm not joking or exaggerating, STT looks awful here, and you can check Death Curse to see that I'm right. ISO Zdenek, and Ctrl+F "MUSH". Recognize that Zdenek was replaced by Frederick A Campbell, who was our very first scum kill in Death Curse, and opened the door to red flip city. I am putting my bet down, I want anyone who thinks I'm wrong to put their money where their mouth is and/or eat lead.

My TR on STT is not especially strong (nulltown prolly) but I really liked their second post where they explained the tonal oddities that many noticed in their first post. I have a soft spot for people who get scumread for playstyle/posting style and the way they reached out to me as opposed to being defensive felt townie.
Not interested in debating this with you but I thought I'd give you an answer.

[Imperium]

Where did I say I wouldn't give them the gun?

[SirCakez]

So, if I'm scum, I agreed to give the gun to the people I think can read me the best and who is going into this game with probably some hesitation on town reading me in the first place, which means I've already gone into the game knowing that I could end up getting shot first if I'm unable to fool them. So, in this world, you don't concern me at all as I've already made contingency plans for going out first. In this world I've decided to make associatives to fuck with the shots that come after. I, in fact, expect to go out first in every scum game I play because I feel and have always felt super naked and obvious as scum.

This seemed to imply that @Tammy.

[SirCakez]

I think Rockhopper is flying way under the radar here.
They put up a lot better stuff in the Micro I played with them then they have here.
Norfolk pointed this out too.

[SirCakez]

I think there could be a scum in Duchess v Lotus but honestly their posts are so blah to me I just can't get a grasp on it at all.

[Tammy]

So this post
I want to preface this by saying I DO NOT WANT TO RESTART THIS ARGUMENT
However I did say I would respond to it

This is why Imperium's defense is so bizarre to me.

What about our defense did you dislike?
What part of it was unreasonable?

It feels very unearned
Why are you going in to save someone so hard who (at the time) had made four posts?

You didn't answer either of our questions here.

I feel like I have answered this.
Nothing content wise in the defense was bad.
I'm looking at it in the context of the game.

You still have not addressed it. Waiting for specifics and "in the context of the game" is not specifics.

What part of the defense did you dislike in the context of the game? What part of the defense was unreasonable in the context of the game?

I feel you are not getting what I'm saying.
In the content of the initial wall about Norfolk itself, the reasons you use to claim the scumreads are undeserved are fine (although obviously I disagree). I can see the logic and arguments.
My dislike of the wall doesn't come from the reasoning used, but the fence-sitty aspects of it. It doesn't make sense to me to go to the lengths you did in that wall just to declare them as a nullread anyways (as I've said many many times). More than once in the wall you basically go "well that could be town or it could be scum"

Now it's looking like a non-zero chance Norfolk is getting shot here. If he flips red then you can say you were never actually defending him. If he flips town then you can say you were correct with your defense and go after the people you were shading in the wall. Regardless of outcome, it sets you up for the future. And it doesn't feel like a genuine opinion, but an out.

It sets me up to look like shit in the future regardless of his flip.

[SirCakez]

If they would stop 1v1ing and join the rest of us that would be helpful.

[SirCakez]

How so Tammy?

[Imperium]

So this post
I want to preface this by saying I DO NOT WANT TO RESTART THIS ARGUMENT
However I did say I would respond to it

This is why Imperium's defense is so bizarre to me.

What about our defense did you dislike?
What part of it was unreasonable?

It feels very unearned
Why are you going in to save someone so hard who (at the time) had made four posts?

You didn't answer either of our questions here.

I feel like I have answered this.
Nothing content wise in the defense was bad.
I'm looking at it in the context of the game.

You still have not addressed it. Waiting for specifics and "in the context of the game" is not specifics.

What part of the defense did you dislike in the context of the game? What part of the defense was unreasonable in the context of the game?

I feel you are not getting what I'm saying.
In the content of the initial wall about Norfolk itself, the reasons you use to claim the scumreads are undeserved are fine (although obviously I disagree). I can see the logic and arguments.
My dislike of the wall doesn't come from the reasoning used, but the fence-sitty aspects of it. It doesn't make sense to me to go to the lengths you did in that wall just to declare them as a nullread anyways (as I've said many many times). More than once in the wall you basically go "well that could be town or it could be scum"

Now it's looking like a non-zero chance Norfolk is getting shot here. If he flips red then you can say you were never actually defending him. If he flips town then you can say you were correct with your defense and go after the people you were shading in the wall. Regardless of outcome, it sets you up for the future. And it doesn't feel like a genuine opinion, but an out.

It sets me up to look like shit in the future regardless of his flip.

[Imperium]

So, if I'm scum, I agreed to give the gun to the people I think can read me the best and who is going into this game with probably some hesitation on town reading me in the first place, which means I've already gone into the game knowing that I could end up getting shot first if I'm unable to fool them. So, in this world, you don't concern me at all as I've already made contingency plans for going out first. In this world I've decided to make associatives to fuck with the shots that come after. I, in fact, expect to go out first in every scum game I play because I feel and have always felt super naked and obvious as scum.

This seemed to imply that @Tammy.

No, that was not what I was getting at. Quite frankly, I don’t know what I’d do. I might give them the gun I might not. I don’t know.

You said I was worried about you. I told you what my mindset would be in the world I was scum and gave them the gun as it relates to what I was worried about.

This is part of my problem. You keep saying I’m saying doing things I’m not.

[Imperium]

How so Tammy?

Because I can’t claim any credit because I didn’t take a stance. If he flips scum, I look like shit for pushing and questioning the scum reads on him. I look like his partner who tried to get somebody else flipped.

If he flips town, I get no credit except from people who’ve misunderstood my point, but since I didn’t actually call him town I look like I’m willing to push there depending on the wind.

[Imperium]

I think there could be a scum in Duchess v Lotus but honestly their posts are so blah to me I just can't get a grasp on it at all.

There’s a part of me concerned about some theater there. Nacho doesn’t quite like the way lotus is pushing there.

[RLotus]

I think there could be a scum in Duchess v Lotus but honestly their posts are so blah to me I just can't get a grasp on it at all.

There’s a part of me concerned about some theater there. Nacho doesn’t quite like the way lotus is pushing there.

What about the way im pushing?

[RLotus]

Now it's looking like a non-zero chance Norfolk is getting shot here. If he flips red then you can say you were never actually defending him. If he flips town then you can say you were correct with your defense and go after the people you were shading in the wall. Regardless of outcome, it sets you up for the future. And it doesn't feel like a genuine opinion, but an out.

If Imperium is scum, why do they need to look good regardless of the outcome, since they would know the outcome of course?

[RLotus]

I kinda like the spunk that Norfolk showed in that last burst of posts

[Imperium]

I think there could be a scum in Duchess v Lotus but honestly their posts are so blah to me I just can't get a grasp on it at all.

There’s a part of me concerned about some theater there. Nacho doesn’t quite like the way lotus is pushing there.

What about the way im pushing?

I’m not sure. He made a post last night saying that, but I haven’t had a chance to talk to him about it. Hopefully he’ll explain it when he gets home from work tonight.

[SirCakez]

Now it's looking like a non-zero chance Norfolk is getting shot here. If he flips red then you can say you were never actually defending him. If he flips town then you can say you were correct with your defense and go after the people you were shading in the wall. Regardless of outcome, it sets you up for the future. And it doesn't feel like a genuine opinion, but an out.

If Imperium is scum, why do they need to look good regardless of the outcome, since they would know the outcome of course?

From our POVs we don't know what's gonna happen. It's ambiguous. If Imperium went too hard either way then it could look like they knew ahead of time. With the ambiguity they can more easily wiggle around with it.

[SirCakez]

How so Tammy?

Because I can’t claim any credit because I didn’t take a stance. If he flips scum, I look like shit for pushing and questioning the scum reads on him. I look like his partner who tried to get somebody else flipped.

If he flips town, I get no credit except from people who’ve misunderstood my point, but since I didn’t actually call him town I look like I’m willing to push there depending on the wind.

This is basically the point I'm making now. But you couldn't have been thinking this at the time of that post.

[Imperium]

Yeah I’m done this is useless. I don’t even know where the goalposts are anymore. You keep moving them.

For the record, no I wasn’t thinking that at the time because I’m torn and those are my real actual genuine town thoughts.

If I were scum, I absolutely would be thinking about how my posts are coming across. I’m not dumb.

But I’m done.

[WhemeStar]

Does anyone have any questions for me

I’m kind of ready for someone to get shot