Open 840 - Guardians of the Fortress [Game Over]

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Post Post #950 (ISO) » Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:48 pm

Post by Aristeia »

In post 869, Aristeia wrote:Pavo, what are you doing to try to sort me?
I am asking this question because I get the sense that Pavo has focused around Luke and hasn't been really trying to figure out my alignment.

Something that he acknowledges and states is due to thinking my play is "strange"

I comment that I think he could just sort on the content and question me about that if he is uncomfortable reading my AtE for emotional tells.

Reading how people sort me is one way that I establish reads on the people interacting with me and I was somewhat lacking in that from him.
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Post Post #951 (ISO) » Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:50 pm

Post by Aristeia »

In post 858, Aristeia wrote:
In post 846, VP Baltar wrote:Personally, I think Tanner should be able to town read me easily this game
can you explain this a bit more? why should tanner be able to correctly figure out that you are town?

This question is still open, you can see the line of questioning it led to here:
In post 867, Aristeia wrote:
In post 860, VP Baltar wrote:
In post 858, Aristeia wrote:
In post 846, VP Baltar wrote:Personally, I think Tanner should be able to town read me easily this game
can you explain this a bit more? why should tanner be able to correctly figure out that you are town?
Tanner has played with town me a shit ton. I'm not that hard to read.

Here is my town meta: Am I doing things with pro-town motivation? If yes, I am town.
What have you done this game with a pro-town motivation?
In post 876, Aristeia wrote:
In post 872, VP Baltar wrote:
In post 867, Aristeia wrote:What have you done this game with a pro-town motivation?
I organized a badass sort. Doesn't get more obvtown than that.
Can you explain this in more detail please?



I want to drill down to exactly why VPB thinks Datisi should be able to townread him.

His answers feel evasive to me.
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Post Post #952 (ISO) » Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:54 pm

Post by Aristeia »

In post 831, Aristeia wrote:Ok but even if Implosion is scum, why would Luke switch Implosion out for you instead of Tooges or NumberQ?

Don't you think it's much easier for Luke to convince either Tooges/NumberQ to vote for Luke rather than you just from how much familiarity you two have with each other?

As a bonus it would leave your own limbaity slot in Wall where you are more likely to be mis-limmed...

I am trying to understand Pavo's mindset here because his mindset has to make sense to him as town for him to be town.
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Post Post #953 (ISO) » Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:54 pm

Post by implosion »

One post that I do get sort of scummy vibes from imaginality from is his reads wall that I think VP criticized some parts of. On the whole it feels very "I have to give some thoughts on everyone" rather than I think the way that town more frequently will naturally approach a game, which is that you get stronger reads on some players and weaker reads on others. Forcing everyone into lean town vs lean scum in the way he did here feels, well, forced. Take for instance the numberQ read - it reads like "well I'm making a reads list so i gotta put everyone in a read, gotta come up with something based on these two posts" where I think town would be more likely to happily slot him as "null, need more posts". Especially like, the exact formatting here:
imag wrote:numberQ
- only two posts, so not much to go on
-but I find this switch jarring, from #42"I was really hoping we'd talk about assignments more" to #64 "I'm fine not picking where I go. I have no real preference for which location I'm in."
kinda fits in with this post of him saying "only two posts, not much to go on" but then also feeling the need to say something about him. Other parts of the post feel kind of similar as well.
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Post Post #954 (ISO) » Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:56 pm

Post by Aristeia »

In post 790, Aristeia wrote:
In post 787, VP Baltar wrote:If Tanner is town, then I want to follow his instincts because they are much better than my own in early game.

How did you decide that town!Tanner's instincts are much better than your own instincts in early game?

From reading VPB's town!games. He is a somewhat arrogant player who likes to push his reads regardless of whether he is right or wrong in the past.

I felt the deference to Tanner to be somewhat questionable and it felt like sucking up to him.
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Post Post #955 (ISO) » Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:57 pm

Post by implosion »

And yeah I get that you have reasons for asking these questions. The point is just that I haven't felt like I've been able to clearly see that you're actually updating your read of the gamestate in response to them, rather than just asking them for the sake of doing stuff.
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Post Post #956 (ISO) » Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:57 pm

Post by Aristeia »

In post 949, implosion wrote:The first two lines here I don't really buy as being alignment indicative rather than playstyle.

The third of these is probably the one that I'd potentially find convincing. I do think if imag is a bad scum player then that would lend credence to him being town here bc he isn't playing badly by any means. I just have a hard time gleaning much meaningful from his play.

The fourth thing here I actually view as kind of townish for VP. I think his sort of bravado has felt authentic or at least not inauthentic.
Do you have examples of games where VP lacks Bravado as scum?
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Post Post #957 (ISO) » Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:58 pm

Post by Aristeia »

In post 955, implosion wrote:And yeah I get that you have reasons for asking these questions. The point is just that I haven't felt like I've been able to clearly see that you're actually updating your read of the gamestate in response to them, rather than just asking them for the sake of doing stuff.
Do you feel any of the responses to my questions have been satisfactory enough to warrant me changing my reads?
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Post Post #958 (ISO) » Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:02 pm

Post by Aristeia »

In post 953, implosion wrote:One post that I do get sort of scummy vibes from imaginality from is his reads wall that I think VP criticized some parts of. On the whole it feels very "I have to give some thoughts on everyone" rather than I think the way that town more frequently will naturally approach a game, which is that you get stronger reads on some players and weaker reads on others. Forcing everyone into lean town vs lean scum in the way he did here feels, well, forced. Take for instance the numberQ read - it reads like "well I'm making a reads list so i gotta put everyone in a read, gotta come up with something based on these two posts" where I think town would be more likely to happily slot him as "null, need more posts". Especially like, the exact formatting here:
imag wrote:numberQ
- only two posts, so not much to go on
-but I find this switch jarring, from #42"I was really hoping we'd talk about assignments more" to #64 "I'm fine not picking where I go. I have no real preference for which location I'm in."
kinda fits in with this post of him saying "only two posts, not much to go on" but then also feeling the need to say something about him. Other parts of the post feel kind of similar as well.
In context his readslist came after I asked him for "his list" and I only gave three names with no details attached. I think he easily could've just given me three names but instead he went over and beyond to respond to me with a full list with reasoning and I felt that seems somewhat +town given that scum could easily just not give a list or just put three names together.
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Post Post #959 (ISO) » Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:09 pm

Post by implosion »

To be completely honest I've kind of lost interest in fine-grained sorting of you, Ari, at least for now. My opinion of you doesn't meaningfully matter; I can hope this discussion will be useful for Tanner if he is ultimately part of the Keep decision-making process and that it's useful for whichever 1-2 of Luke/Pav are town but my opinion on Keep right now is "vote Luke" and, candidly, that's unlikely to change from this discussion.

To be frank I'm somewhat annoyed because my situation is that I (generally/vaguely townread by everyone but you I think) am in wall with nQ (universally townread, unless i'm forgetting someone, and not the most prolific poster) and the Toog slot that's being replaced. It feels like the most impact on the game I can have right now is to demonstrate to whoever is town in the wall (and maybe Tanner, I guess) that I'm town, and maybe try to influence other games but really my reads aren't much likely to be better than the reads of townies in other locations and I don't have power in them. And I have nothing to do in my own area to improve my reads right now. So, idk. I'll probably just wander elsewhere for tonight.
In post 956, Aristeia wrote:Do you have examples of games where VP lacks Bravado as scum?
I don't know his meta well, didn't mean to imply this was a meta read.
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Post Post #960 (ISO) » Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:10 pm

Post by Aristeia »

In post 959, implosion wrote:I don't know his meta well, didn't mean to imply this was a meta read.
I don't understand how you can say someone having bravado is town indicative if you don't have meta on them
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Post Post #961 (ISO) » Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:13 pm

Post by Aristeia »

I do want to apologize if you think I am being overly harsh with you.

I guess I do not take criticism very well and I do want to get to the bottom of why you think I'm asking questions for the sake of asking questions.

I would think these questions would be interesting to you too if you were similarly uninformed as to the alignment of people like VPB and you would be similarly curious to get a straight answer out of him.

Instead you come out of nowhere and sideswipe me and it's absolutely infuriating.
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Post Post #962 (ISO) » Tue Dec 28, 2021 8:35 pm

Post by Aristeia »

In post 959, implosion wrote:My opinion of you doesn't meaningfully matter; I can hope this discussion will be useful for Tanner if he is ultimately part of the Keep decision-making process and that it's useful for whichever 1-2 of Luke/Pav are town but my opinion on Keep right now is "vote Luke" and, candidly, that's unlikely to change from this discussion.
It's not your opinion of my
alignment
that infuriates me.

It's the way you are trivializing my efforts to solve this game because it gives people like VPB an excuse to dismiss me with comments like "I'm obvtown because my sort is kickass"

It's you giving VPB a townread for "Bravado" that encourages him to hand wave my questions and give me garbage answers that are utterly meaningless.

It feels deeply uncurious, arrogant, and frankly ridiculous from you if you are town here which I suspect now that you aren't because you are unable to actually articulate why my questioning should have led me to have updated reads which you feel are missing.
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Post Post #963 (ISO) » Tue Dec 28, 2021 9:39 pm

Post by implosion »

In post 961, Aristeia wrote:I guess I do not take criticism very well and I do want to get to the bottom of why you think I'm asking questions for the sake of asking questions.
This is basically what I'm saying but it'd be more precise to say that the issue is that I can't tell if you're just asking questions for the sake of asking questions. It's not that the questions themselves aren't reasonable things to ask, or that I don't think them being answered is a good thing, it's more that it's a thing-scum-could-do to ask a bunch of questions where the actual reason they're asking those questions is to look like they're doing stuff when in reality they aren't committing to any actual reads. And for a while it's looked kind of like that's what you were doing, because you never actually said what you
thought
of anything or what your interpretation of an answer was unless prompted as in the past couple pages. Like,
Aristeia wrote:
In post 955, implosion wrote:And yeah I get that you have reasons for asking these questions. The point is just that I haven't felt like I've been able to clearly see that you're actually updating your read of the gamestate in response to them, rather than just asking them for the sake of doing stuff.
Do you feel any of the responses to my questions have been satisfactory enough to warrant me changing my reads?
Idk, this is for you to decide but I don't understand what the point of asking so many questions is if not to either change reads or reinforce reads or come up with reads, and you weren't especially forthcoming with reads despite asking so many, unless I've missed something which to be fair I easily could have.

I do want to emphasize that I feel like this spat is coming from a clash in our playstyles in both directions, which is one reason why I'm just not really interested in it. I think there's a chance some of your posting here has been +town but again I just don't really see the point in trying all that hard to figure out your alignment especially when you also agree Luke is town atm.

This is all also making me want to just flip wall first because I want to just not deal with the contingency thing of other people not knowing if I'm town in the swap. Though of course it doesn't really work that way. I also do feel like other people's opinions about Wall have been less pronounced than other people's opinions about the other areas, and so I think the added value we'd get at Wall from seeing other areas flip is maybe less than the added value other areas would get from seeing Wall flip.
Ari wrote:In context his readslist came after I asked him for "his list" and I only gave three names with no details attached. I think he easily could've just given me three names but instead he went over and beyond to respond to me with a full list with reasoning and I felt that seems somewhat +town given that scum could easily just not give a list or just put three names together.
Specifically you asked for "his list so far", which I feel even more is something that a townie would be likely to not feel the need to give a read on every player in the game.

Like ultimately on a gut level to me the post just feels like the kind of reads-wall that scum tends to make at that juncture.
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Post Post #964 (ISO) » Tue Dec 28, 2021 10:30 pm

Post by Aristeia »

my line of questioning to VPB:

Me: why should tanner be able to townread you?
vpb: because I am doing things with a protown mindset.
Me: What is something you've done with a protown mindset?
Vpb: my sort is kickass and makes me obvtown
Me: Explain how.


Tell me at which point I should have been satsified with his "answers"
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Post Post #965 (ISO) » Tue Dec 28, 2021 11:54 pm

Post by Tanner »

In post 824, implosion wrote:I've been pretty clear with my reads, I think, Tanner. And I've given reasoning for the ones at Wall. I'm happy to justify why I think Luke is so town if you want, and am happy to wax about VP and imaginality but I honestly doubt I can really reasonably read the two of them better than 50/50.
the only thing i was able to remember from you is that vp is town because dumbtell. scrolling back, the point on toog being prepared is nice but it's like, i dunno, is that all? it didn't give me the impression you're actually solving a lot. i dunno why i have the impression that you Should be solving more but here we are
In post 833, Lukewarm wrote:Why would scum imaginality's opinion on who the third person in his minigame was change depending on if it was the wall vs the gate here - but I can totally see the town motivation behind not wanting the DArby slot made into the IC, but being okay with Tanner being made into the IC.
i'm probably egocentric, but the way i read it - i always end up at the gate. now, i'm not gonna say it's impossible for someone who sees me for the first time to want me to be made an ic if possible, especially considering my play this game. but if imaginality is scum, it makes me wonder if my reads were so backwards, scum decided i was needed to be the ic
In post 842, VP Baltar wrote:There's so much pointless mech talk in this game.. fucking kill me.
big agree
In post 846, VP Baltar wrote:Personally, I think Tanner should be able to town read me easily this game, in which case we could knock out our game first. But that's going to be Tanner's call after we chat I suppose.
okay, here we go. why do you think i should be able to Easily townread you?
In post 856, VP Baltar wrote:It literally makes no sense for me to do that as scum with how it went down.
i'm kind of a broken record here, but - why would this not make sense for scum!you to do? like, you worked with my reads to suggest a game sort, sure. and my reads on day one were pretty clearly "vp and imaginality can be buddies, but imaginality is much scummier than vp". like, what about what you did on day 1 makes no sense for scum!you to do?

posting this now because this game is taking like twice as long to read as usual because i just keep pausing after every second post and regretting my life decisions, be back in a bit
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Post Post #966 (ISO) » Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:32 am

Post by Tanner »

ok let's keep reading
In post 862, VP Baltar wrote:Tanner, I'll be around at my usual hours tomorrow. We tend to have overlap early in my day. Let's chat then.
looking forward to it.

i'm a bit distracted, what games did ari read again for meta?

ok i read up and i don't think i have explicit comments on anything that i should be getting out at this moment in time.
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Post Post #967 (ISO) » Wed Dec 29, 2021 12:33 am

Post by Tanner »

pav, would you say that your scum performance in to tell the truth is close to your current scum performance? i think i recall you saying that you were still new at that point, but.
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Post Post #968 (ISO) » Wed Dec 29, 2021 1:46 am

Post by imaginality »

So, first off, and apologies because this post is snarky but I'm annoyed, so:
In post 697, VP Baltar wrote: I cannot believe imaginality posted another wall. I apologize in advance for people having to read my response to what is no doubt nonsense.
In post 777, imaginality wrote:Okay, first off it's beyond cheeky for VP to whinge about me posting a wall when:

-
my post was a direct response to a request from Tanner
(sorry should I have given fewer reasons VP is scum?)

-VP has spammed the thread with dozens of posts since that I'm now going to have to wade through at some point.
In post 781, VP Baltar wrote: The reason I complain about your walls is because what little I have read is complete nonsense like this and you use a lot of words to say it. So now I have to go deconstruct said nonsense because,
let's be real, most people glaze over at wall posts
.

Also, don't act like I'm spamming the thread by answering direct questions people are asking me.
Scum shading will get you nowhere darling.
In relation to the bolded: pot, kettle.

In relation to the italicised:

Over the last 24 hours I've posted 3,000 words in under 10 posts. You've posted over
9,000
words, across 50 posts.

Which do you think is easier for someone who's not the poster to read through?
Which one is likelier to bury any good points anyone else makes?

Also, which posting style is easier for someone who has only intermittent opportunities to post to adopt?

I don't mind you not liking wall posts but to ostentatiously apologise to everyone as though I'm shitting in the thread because I posted a wall post irks me no end.
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Post Post #969 (ISO) » Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:04 am

Post by Pavowski »

In post 967, Tanner wrote:pav, would you say that your scum performance in to tell the truth is close to your current scum performance? i think i recall you saying that you were still new at that point, but.
Oof, that game. First of all I hate this question (not you asking it but just anytime it gets asked) because there's every reason to lie. I don't think it is, though. That game was either my first or second scum game, and still in my "haven't properly figured out how I want to play" phase, I think. It was also, I think, a really difficult setup for scum.

I like to think I'm a lot more relaxed as either alignment these days, but I dunno. I won't say I'm unique in this regard but I don't think I judge my play well at all (see Luke calling me his top townread in that other newbie game we were both in, where I don't think I played particularly well at all).
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Post Post #970 (ISO) » Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:09 am

Post by Pavowski »

In post 969, Pavowski wrote:
In post 967, Tanner wrote:pav, would you say that your scum performance in to tell the truth is close to your current scum performance? i think i recall you saying that you were still new at that point, but.
Oof, that game. First of all I hate this question (not you asking it but just anytime it gets asked) because there's every reason to lie. I don't think it is, though. That game was either my first or second scum game, and still in my "haven't properly figured out how I want to play" phase, I think. It was also, I think, a really difficult setup for scum.

I like to think I'm a lot more relaxed as either alignment these days, but I dunno. I won't say I'm unique in this regard but I don't think I judge my play well at all (see Luke calling me his top townread in that other newbie game we were both in, where I don't think I played particularly well at all).
I realize I used the word "think" 5 times in like 50 words and it hurts me. What I get for posting before I've properly woken up, lol.
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Post Post #971 (ISO) » Wed Dec 29, 2021 2:37 am

Post by imaginality »

Okay, so here are my thoughts on VP's interactions with others.

VP interactions with players in the Keep:


There's quite a bit here.

In post 212 and post 256 VP argues Tanner and Ari aren't T/T or S/S. We now know Tanner is town. VP's expressed suspicion of Ari a few other times too, e.g. in post 217saying she's trying to pocket Tanner.

Do we think VP is more likely to distance or to defend a buddy? implosion for example has argued bussing/distancing doesn't cost scum in this set-up. I disagree, but even if we consider it's possible Ari and VP are scumbuddies and Ari is bussing VP, to me that's outweighed by how hard Ari has gone after VP today. She's making (imo) excellent points and I don't think Ari needs to do that if she's scum. She could just stay quieter and let VP get me mislimmed. So largely based on today's play, I townread Ari. The only scenario I see Ari bussing VP is if she figures she's losing Keep and also figures Keep is resolving first and also figures bussing VP will sway Tanner's vote in the Gate after she flips scum. Which, eh, seems unlikely.

With Luke and DArby/Pav, I notice VP's question of DArby in post 151 is designed to encourage more suspicion of Luke whichever way DArby answers. That seems to me to point to town!Luke because scum don't distance in that particular manner, I think.

I notice in post 248 Luke defended Ari against VP's suspicion of her. That seems like +town points for Luke given they're at the same location.
At the start of D2, Luke's reads had him leaning scum on VP, though not for any super-strong reasons that can't be reversed.

And since then, he shifted to a more neutral stance, and then there was the 'slip' post:
In post 558, Lukewarm wrote:
In post 499, VP Baltar wrote:Tanner, I am only skimming. Are we certain to have a scum at the gate? If yes, resolving that first makes sense. We can yeet imaginality into the sun.
um.

Does this make Baltar town?

Also, Baltar, you do realize that imaginality is only confirmed
town
from your POV, and not from tanner's, right?
Luke's pushed VP a bit more since then, though, and also given me townpoints in post 833.

Since Pav replaced in, Pav's also leaned me-town, VP-scum, but not with any great depth of reasoning, e.g. post 640. VP's expressed suspicion of Pav in post 873, based off VP's sense my read of DArby isn't genuine.

VP's interactions with people at the Wall:


There's quite a bit less here:

VP engaged in some mech debate with implosion early, that ended up with VP's 'it feels like it all means nothing' in post 138. Then he gave implosion townpoints in #160 for sharing the optimal strategy (at least, what implosion sees as the optimal strategy) from the scumchat in the earlier game. And strengthens it to his 'strongest townread' as of the post where he suggests the allocations.

VP's town-read of implosion is of interest because the leading explanation for the implosion swap, in my view, is that scum thought implosion was too town-read for them to win Keep with him there. So it's worth noting that it is indeed plausible any scum-team with VP on it would have held that view.

implosion townreads VP today because of the dumb 'dumbtell' tell, but then later fence-sits when Tanner asks for more:
In post 824, implosion wrote:I've been pretty clear with my reads, I think, Tanner. And I've given reasoning for the ones at Wall. I'm happy to justify why I think Luke is so town if you want, and am happy to wax about VP and imaginality but I honestly doubt I can really reasonably read the two of them better than 50/50.
And then more recently he says he townreads VP, but then ums and ahs about it, e.g. post 905. By a couple of pages later, he's more strongly against me, e.g. post 949 and post 953. I obviously don't agree with some of his takes here (for example, saying it's +town for VP to assign implosion to the Keep; as someone else (Luke?) said, scum could easily have planned to swap out implosion for DArby regardless of how the other locations ended up, in an S/T swap and some T/T scenarios too), but my gut feel is that implosion seems to be honestly trying to figure things out.


VP has been more neutral and minimal in his interactions with numberQ, e.g.:
In post 401, VP Baltar wrote:@numberQ -- do you usually have a hard time keeping up with games?
NumberQ also steers clear of saying much about VP, e.g. in post 281 and as recently as post 584.

This seems very plausibly like buddies not wanting any connections between them. Note also that VP's proposed setup always had numberQ in a different game to him.

With VP-Toogeloo, there's a bit of mech discussion in post 111/120. Not much else to speak of after that until recently. Toogeloo basically fence-sat on the me v VP question in post 495.
In post 524, VP uses my early reads list as a reason to suspect Toogeloo.

More recently in post 859he has said Toogeloo's first post today seems too composed and is leaning scum on him.

How to read this depends on how we think VP thinks the minigames will resolve, since he knows I'll flip town. If he thinks Gate flips before Wall, this could be an attempt to protect a scum-buddy by distancing himself from Toogeloo; if he thinks Wall will resolve before Keep it could equally be an attempt to add suspicion on a town player based off the suspicion he's trying to stir up about me.

Summary:


I think just from interactions with VP it seems pretty clear to me Aristeia is town, since I know VP is scum and they really don't seem buddied.

Pav has also being anti-VP today, but in a way which fits better with the scenario where they're scum together and Pav knows he's going down in Keep so wants to get some distancing in. Whereas Ari seems to genuinely believe her case and want to get VP limmed.
Luke's pushes on VP today seem somewhere between the two; they read to me as earnest, though less intent than Aristeia's.

So from interactions with VP alone, I'd say I suspect Ari least and Pav most.

At the Wall, it's harder to read much into VP's interactions. I do think VP genuinely saw implosion as townread, so if implosion were scum I think as a scumteam they'd be more likely to leave implosion at Keep. Even in a Pav-implosion-VP scenario, the S/S swap seems to make Keep harder to win and not gain much at Wall. So the interactions strengthen my townread of implosion.

numberQ and Toogeloo both look very plausible as buddies. VP had both numberQ and Toogeloo at a separate location to himself so I don't think we can distinguish between them that way, and there's not a lot of difference in how he's treated them and vice versa. Complicating matters, VP's interactions with the Wall are muddied by the question of whether Gate or Wall will get flipped first. If VP (and his scumbuddies) expect Gate to flip first, there's more reason to distance from his buddy at Wall so his scum-flip won't point us to them. If they expect Wall to flip first, VP might be less inclined to distance, to give his buddy at Wall a better chance of winning, and/or VP might be more inclined to try to paint a towny as scummy. So if the interactions point us anywhere, I'd say they point to Toogeloo as VP's buddy if scum expect Gate to flip first, and numberQ if scum expect Wall to flip first.
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Post Post #972 (ISO) » Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:04 am

Post by VP Baltar »

In post 946, Aristeia wrote:Imag is a weaker 1v1 player than VPB
What are you basing this on? He and I don't even have a completed game, let alone a time we faced off.

And follow up question, who in this game do you think is better at 1v1s than me?

Like your whole premise for me being scum seems to be that I wanted to face off with imaginality....but he doesn't seem like the weakest player in the game I could have tried to go up against, so....
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Post Post #973 (ISO) » Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:05 am

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In post 946, Aristeia wrote:Imag not hesitating to vote skews townie to me, VPB "forgetting" to do it feels like scum who is awkward and unsure of the "right" time to do something.
I'm strong. I'm weak. I'm smart and fake. I'm dumb and awkward.
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Post Post #974 (ISO) » Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:08 am

Post by Prism »

RH9 replaces Toogeloo. I will adjust the deadline later today.
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