Open 861: The Turing Test [game over]

[Datisi]

vote count 1.08

with 13 votes in play, it takes 7 to make a decision. day 1 ends in (expired on 2022-08-11 09:45:00).

yeet

KittyTacky [5]:

Bell, Aristeia, GuiltyLion, fireisredsir, Vivax

Vivax [3]:

Loki Dokie, Radical Rat, furtiveglance

Greeting [2]:

Dannflor, KittyTacky

furtiveglance [2]:

Roden, Greeting

not voting [1]:

kutiplz

mod notes

~ this is a mod note.

[Aristeia]

Spoiler: For Dats<3

[Loki Dokie]

Don't like Dannflor, mostly.

I have trouble believing you actually scumread Dannflor because you have done literally nothing to push or sort him.

I don't like this angle. It seems you are accusing someone of not pushing Dannflor, but you don't seem focused enough on Dannflor yourself. You should think he's mafia if you think that it's a valid reason to attack KittyTacky. Cue for TMI and the Ari/Dann pair being correct.

I don’t understand where you’re getting Ari’s sr Dann from this? But I do think this push on Kitty may be a bit much. It’s not like Kitty has been actively campaigning for his lim and Kitty only made this response in reaction to Ari pushing him.

[Loki Dokie]

VOTE: DannFlor

Interested into seeing what Loki thinks of a wagon on Dannflor.
It's not on Loki, so it can't be that bad.

Why do you suddenly care so much what I think? What I don’t understand is if you disliked Ari’s post so much, why you’re voting Dann?

[GuiltyLion]

Everything he posts is designed to be distracting or confusing. I don't believe a single word that's come out of his mouth all game, and now he's sussing people for.... Believing mental illness claims?

but when you say "designed to be" distracting or confusing, isn't that assuming mal intent from the start? I also disagree that it's all entirely meant to be confusing, like a post like 592 is readable to me, even if I don't agree with his ideas or theories I feel like what he's saying is not hard to understand.

I dunno, he could be mafia, but I don't think I've seen anything in his posts/arguments that feels like it's alignment indicative moreso than personality/playstyle indicative. Are his town games super logical and clear?

[GuiltyLion]

Bell's simpler, if he's posting then he's town, if not then he's scum. I see this get said every game he's in and I haven't seen it proven wrong yet. His activity has been somewhere in the middle this game so far though, so he's just a town lean.

I would kinda expect Bell to post more than he has so far tbh

in Shakespeare he posted a lot as scum and won the game off it

[Loki Dokie]

I don't think an apology from me is necessary, but I do probably owe everyone an explanation. I won't be going into much details, because I don't really like talking about it, and I don't really want to host an AmA right now, but unfortunately this impacted my play in this game and so I've kinda made it game-relevant.

I have a certain condition, which, when triggered, causes me to react in a way that others would describe (and have described) as a "massive overreaction". I can be erratic and my thoughts can get chaotic. Most of the time I have it under control and can manage the triggers, but sometimes I don't. I don't always know if the chain reaction is happening or not. It does tend to spiral out of control quite easily, especially in stressful situations, is quite impactful and let's say that I kinda drift away.

I should have stopped posting before I got passive aggressive, and I can own up to this mistake. But not to my "massive overreactions".

As for its' relevance to the game, I would say that when I'm mafia I tend to have my emotions more under control than not. I know that I have to watch what I say more, because any inconsistency can be used against me. When I'm town, I just don't really care, I play how I feel like playing atm.

It's, of course, up to you whether you believe this or not. I won't be offended if you don't buy it, but it's just the truth.

I don't really like this kind of stuff, I feel like it blurs the line, like a trust tell.

It's like "sorry for being emotional, I have a condition, it's because I'm always like this as town".

Ok I won't vote you then.

Cue postgame...oh you were mafia. *thinks*........well played I guess.

Know what I mean?

I'm fairly certain this would count as lying about IRL circumstances, which is against site rules.

That said, he didn't say it only happens as Town and never as scum, which definitely would be approaching Trust Tell category, so I'm not saying we report them for flipping red or anything. Just that we should take it as good faith for now.

This is what I mean - if your IRL circumstances are your self-towncase, and it's against site rules to lie about IRL circumstances, it feels like a loophole. Lying is part of the game anyway, I don't agree that you shouldn't be able to lie about IRL stuff. IRL stuff should never be relevant anyway.

This post bothered me when I was reading earlier. Besides the soft accusation that Greeting is faking/lying about having a condition, these posts are trying to frame it like he's using it as an excuse to avoid getting scum read when it seems really clear that he isn't doing that at all. He's explaining his behavior and asking people to keep that in mind when trying to read him, but he never claims that it's town indicative for him when certain behavior patterns get triggered. At most, he says he's more controlled as scum and less self-conscious as town, which are like...

really

basic tells for anyone. He doesn't even say he's guaranteed to act a certain way as either alignment, just that he puts in effort to do so.

Obviously mods get final say but I don't see any loopholes here, Greeting can be telling the truth and still be scum.

I'm gonna drop this now, but safe to say my opinion is that people shouldn't bring IRL circumstances into a social deduction game, especially if some people think lying about IRL circumstances is wrong (or against site rules apparently). Because the chain of logic is 1) my IRL circumstances are making me play weirdly/scummily, 2) I can't lie about this according to the rules, 3) I am therefore town. That's just how I see it.

I agree with Roden, I don’t think Greeting was doing that.

[Loki Dokie]

in fact its wholly irrelevant to what I think of Kittys alignment!

It's not irrelevant to what you think of Dannflor
It's not irrelevant to think about Dannflor's alignment
Unless your plan is to withhold information on his alignment, is it that?

?????

[Loki Dokie]

Do you believe I could be a malevolent machine? Or is that just a potential you see while I play text based games? A magnitude of an end of two different spectrums with a common denominator in the middle?

One consequence:

Yes and no is a valid answer

You asked me this and I still don’t understand anything after the first question.

[Vivax]

Sowwy masta Loki, would you like another shushush UwU?

[Loki Dokie]

VOTE: Vivax

I'm not moving for the rest of the day, this needs to go.

can you give me like a brief summary of why Vivax is scum

I see you've been asserting that he's scummy, but I don't know if I know what your reasoning is for why he's mafia. 520 is probably the main point I see against him, why is that inconsistency more likely to come from scum? like why does scum!Vivax throw a vote while openly saying he didn't check if it was a hammer (and would scum!Vivax have checked to see if it was a hammer?), and then 180 immediately afterwards?

like yeah it's weird, hard to make sense of, but why is it scummy?

Everything he posts is designed to be distracting or confusing. I don't believe a single word that's come out of his mouth all game, and now he's sussing people for.... Believing mental illness claims?

I also do not believe he wins a 1v1 against anyone, and I think scum knows this too, so they won't test him. Making today our one and only opportunity to get rid of him.

You don‘t seem to be in the best of moods, Batman. Or was it math man?

Happiness can be learned, not bought

Holding grudges doesn‘t help

Let me know when/if you plan to make posts that make sense.

[Vivax]

post that makes sense

[furtiveglance]

Vivax is mafia for me, and that kind of "yeah I guess I'll vote KittyTacky, if you guys INSIST", seemed very mafia. I just don't know whether it's a scum/scum interaction or not. In isolation KittyTacky is definitely sus, but could go either way.

[Loki Dokie]

This is KT's first post with suspicion;

I don't like the naked votes on Lokie Dokie.

atp in time the only people who had voted for Loki Dokie are Dannflor and Fireisredsir, fire had unvoted at this point.

~ 3 hours later - Roden votes for Loki Dokie 188

KT comes back and reiterates his position here:

I will repeat that the string of naked votes on Loki is just HMMMMMMM to me.

which is incongruent with:

I don't understand the Roden wagon. He's got three posts, and none of them strike me as particularly scummy.

Yeah same. Roden is very null to me.

I don't see how you can suspect naked Loki voters and also be null on someone who fits your criteria.

When I press KT on which Loki voters he suspects, his response is:

The ones who actually gave content so far. I can't read someone who made so few posts at all regardless of if they made a naked vote or not.

Which implies that he is scumreading one of the other loki voters for their content - but he hasn't actually explained specifically what content he is suspecting.

I further push him to be specific about who he is scumreading at he responds with:

I don't understand the Roden wagon. He's got three posts, and none of them strike me as particularly scummy.

Yeah same. Roden is very null to me.

I don't understand how you can sus the loki voters and also be null on roden

this feels like a contradiction to me.

I'm not heavily scumreading the Loki voters. And explain how is it a contradiction?

like um

which loki voters are you exactly sussing?

The ones who actually gave content so far. I can't read someone who made so few posts at all regardless of if they made a naked vote or not.

name names

Don't like Dannflor, mostly.

Now this is weird to me because

(1) he's given absolutely no indication prior to this point that Dannflor is a person of interest or suspect for him.

There's no indication in his iso that he suspects Dannflor at all.

(2) in fact he even sheeps Dannflor with this vote:

Dear God, this whole "I don't get scumread" thing is insufferable.
I don't think it's necessarily scummy, because the same thing happened somewhat in Terminator, but it IS obnoxious and makes the game way harder to follow for anyone else.


Anyway,
VOTE: Greeting
Ignoring the actual substance of posts in favor of superficial "tells" is probably as scummy as it's gonna get D1.

Did a reread of the whole game so far, yeah I can sheep this.
VOTE: Greeting

(3) all of his responses to me feel manufactured on the spot and not part of an actual thought process to find scum. I would guess that his initial comment about the Loki voters wasn't real suspicion and really just playing on Loki's extreme sensitivity to being suspected to try to pocket Loki. Which is why he is having such a hard time actually showing any thought process that involves actually pushing or suspecting any of the people who naked voted Loki to begin with.

It’s possible I could be wrong on Kitty but none of this is something I haven’t seen from town!Kitty, so it’s not convincing me for that reason alone. I think Kitty trying to push someone who’s pushing me is something I’ve seen him do before as scum.

Kitty is a player whose posts often don’t make sense irrespective of alignment.

[furtiveglance]

669 is a decent scumcase and probably my favourite of Vivax's content all game. Which makes me lean towards scum/scum, plus I was already leaning that way earlier after that weird vote on Dannflor.

[Loki Dokie]

Bell's simpler, if he's posting then he's town, if not then he's scum. I see this get said every game he's in and I haven't seen it proven wrong yet. His activity has been somewhere in the middle this game so far though, so he's just a town lean.

I would kinda expect Bell to post more than he has so far tbh

in Shakespeare he posted a lot as scum and won the game off it

Town!Bell has real genuine thoughts. Scum!Bell is just wooden and just posts word salads.

[Loki Dokie]

Sowwy masta Loki, would you like another shushush UwU?

Fine, if you want to ask me questions I can’t answer because I don’t have a clue what you’re saying.

[furtiveglance]

Bell's simpler, if he's posting then he's town, if not then he's scum. I see this get said every game he's in and I haven't seen it proven wrong yet. His activity has been somewhere in the middle this game so far though, so he's just a town lean.

I would kinda expect Bell to post more than he has so far tbh

in Shakespeare he posted a lot as scum and won the game off it

Town!Bell has real genuine thoughts. Scum!Bell is just wooden and just posts word salads.

Bell has done nothing that constitutes 'good townposting' for me so far. Firmly in the scumpool for me.

[Loki Dokie]

Vivax is mafia for me, and that kind of "yeah I guess I'll vote KittyTacky, if you guys INSIST", seemed very mafia. I just don't know whether it's a scum/scum interaction or not. In isolation KittyTacky is definitely sus, but could go either way.

Well, I agree it’s suss irrespective of what Kitty is. He talks so much about conviction then just suddenly gives that up without explaining his reasoning.

Wrt to GL’s question, Vivax made a fuckton of sense in NEP which I’ve already linked. That’s how I knew he was obvtown in that. He was bleeding obvtown to me straight out of the gate.

[furtiveglance]

Bell's simpler, if he's posting then he's town, if not then he's scum. I see this get said every game he's in and I haven't seen it proven wrong yet. His activity has been somewhere in the middle this game so far though, so he's just a town lean.

I would kinda expect Bell to post more than he has so far tbh

in Shakespeare he posted a lot as scum and won the game off it

Town!Bell has real genuine thoughts. Scum!Bell is just wooden and just posts word salads.

Bell has done nothing that constitutes 'good townposting' for me so far. Firmly in the scumpool for me.

Conversely, I was impressed by Fireisredsir's 643 - it showed a town pov and it fits with their gameplay so far.

[Vivax]

Vivax is mafia for me, and that kind of "yeah I guess I'll vote KittyTacky, if you guys INSIST", seemed very mafia. I just don't know whether it's a scum/scum interaction or not. In isolation KittyTacky is definitely sus, but could go either way.

Well, I agree it’s suss irrespective of what Kitty is. He talks so much about conviction then just suddenly gives that up without explaining his reasoning.

Wrt to GL’s question, Vivax made a fuckton of sense in NEP which I’ve already linked. That’s how I knew he was obvtown in that. He was bleeding obvtown to me straight out of the gate.

The entire town was beast level honestly. Didn't have to do much save exploding on the wrong person

[Loki Dokie]

669 is a decent scumcase and probably my favourite of Vivax's content all game. Which makes me lean towards scum/scum, plus I was already leaning that way earlier after that weird vote on Dannflor.

Yeah, if I’m actually wrong on Kitty, this would probably be the most compelling argument to me based off my experience playing with him.

Yeah that Dannflor vote made absolutely no sense. I also wonder why Kitty would single out Dann who did a 180 on me when it’s Vivax who has continued to push me not Dann.

@Kitty, why aren’t you suspicious of Vivax?

[Loki Dokie]

Bell's simpler, if he's posting then he's town, if not then he's scum. I see this get said every game he's in and I haven't seen it proven wrong yet. His activity has been somewhere in the middle this game so far though, so he's just a town lean.

I would kinda expect Bell to post more than he has so far tbh

in Shakespeare he posted a lot as scum and won the game off it

Town!Bell has real genuine thoughts. Scum!Bell is just wooden and just posts word salads.

Bell has done nothing that constitutes 'good townposting' for me so far. Firmly in the scumpool for me.

Conversely, I was impressed by Fireisredsir's 643 - it showed a town pov and it fits with their gameplay so far.

Don’t see what you’re seeing wrt to Bell but will reread but yeah, I also really liked that post by fire. It clearly demonstrates a town perspective.

[Loki Dokie]

@Kitty, I would really like your read on Vivax. Can we not run him up before this gets answered please?

[Loki Dokie]

Vivax is mafia for me, and that kind of "yeah I guess I'll vote KittyTacky, if you guys INSIST", seemed very mafia. I just don't know whether it's a scum/scum interaction or not. In isolation KittyTacky is definitely sus, but could go either way.

Well, I agree it’s suss irrespective of what Kitty is. He talks so much about conviction then just suddenly gives that up without explaining his reasoning.

Wrt to GL’s question, Vivax made a fuckton of sense in NEP which I’ve already linked. That’s how I knew he was obvtown in that. He was bleeding obvtown to me straight out of the gate.

The entire town was beast level honestly. Didn't have to do much save exploding on the wrong person

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... &start=200

You also made a great deal of sense in that game too. I’m very certain I would not have needed a translator to understand any of your posts in that game.