TM2012: Scummies 2011.5 - Let the credits roll!

[Quilford]

MoI's one step ahead of me about theamatuer it seems -- has even asked the "do you prefer playing town or scum" question I was intending on asking -- but I'll go through and give my own views on his posts anyway.

~

So, apart from Gaoth he's contributed the least and has been longest since posting last.

OMG its reckoner. He's like a legend.
also

vote: kk

for beign last to confirm

At first, as I mentioned to Kublai Khan, I thought theam's buddying to Reck was pretty town, considering how enthusiastic he was being. But his feelings of enthusiasm here aren't matched with his amount of posts nor the content of his posts. You'd expect someone so enthusiastic about the game (he even votes KK for being last to confirm) would produce a handful of solid posts

reasonably

quickly. Instead, he produces only two more. In neither is the same interest about the game showing in his tone...

I think we should out the awards if a majority couldn't be reached in a group though.

Standard scum theorypost, it's post 45 and he's offered no opinions nor generated original content. He doesn't even have an excuse to show for it.

DV, i think you might be slightly biased here IMO.
They seem to be buddying each other quite obviously. This, I believe, is because exactly one of the two is scum: the scum wants the defense from the town, and it'll lead to incriminating evidence once the scum flips

vote: Quilford

This is the meaty part, though. Not only were we not buddying, but

theamateur takes the effect, or outcome, of scum-on-town buddying

("the scum wants the defense from the town, and it'll lead to incriminating evidence once the scum flips")

and twists it into a cause.

theamateur's essentially saying 'they're buddying because one of the two is scum', whilst giving no reasoning for why one of us is necessarily scum. Additionally, his vote on me was, at the time, the third vote for me. I think he was sheeping Reck and tacked on some bullshit reasoning, plain and simple.

He stands a very good chance of being typical lurker-scum, and I look forward to his responses to MoI's questions.

[Quilford]

Oh, by the way:

I read Quilford's answers

, and I'm satisfied with them.

I'm sure that was understood, but I better make that explicit

, or hito will probably jump on that too...

T-Bone:

I had only skimmed Quilford's posts before

. Now I'm looking at them more carefully.

For those who like brevity, how you can look at this and think Ajax is not lying scum is beyond me.

[Lost Butterfly]

Day 1, Votecount 5

Captain Ajax (4) - MagnaofIllusion, hitogoroshi, Quilford, DeasVail

Quilford (2) - theamatuer, Captain Ajax
theamatuer (2) - Kublai Khan, The Fonz
Gaoth (3) - Zar, T-Bone, BBmolla

Not voting

(2) : Gaoth, xRECKONERx

With 13 players alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline:

21st of May at 11:50pm (EDT)

Countdown to deadline

: (expired on 2012-05-21 23:50:00)

Countdown to the end of First Half Judging

: (expired on 2012-05-13 23:50:00)

[Captain Ajax]

theamatuer and Gaoth need to get into this game already.

Yeah you know, the more you post the more I think your excuse "I had only skimmed Quilford's posts before. Now I'm looking at them more carefully." is just you figuring out that counterattacking is the only way for you to convincingly generate content. I don't think you've read my posts carefully at all. The answer to your question "What in my post made you think I was "flattering" Reckoner?" is right there in my post,

directly before 'CA/TH is flattering Reck.'

I'm just confused how you could have reached that conclusion. It was a grudge vote (my loss to reckoner was extremely embarrassing), and I don't know how you could've thought otherwise.

[Captain Ajax]

This Gaoth lurker-wagon is far too easy.

Zar, do you still think Gaoth is the scummiest, based on that single post?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Ok everyone - read Quilford’s Post 126. That’s a

BOOM GOES THE DYNAMITE

moment right there and I don’t want in missed by anyone.

Furthermore Post 123 and Post 124 address some damn strong points about Ajax.

Oh and for the record I’ll just pipe up and say “Judging Group 1A” has completed their task. No-one from that group needs to say anything else on the issue.

--

So my teammates thoughts on the game:

Grey

– early on found Quilford to be obv-Town for his play here. Says ‘scum Quilford’ is pretty easy to spot and I tend to agree with that sentiment.

He is leaning BBMolla as Town based on fairly weak direct experience with him in Divided Germany Mafia and Blood Bowl Mafia. Wants to see more.

Early had Ajax as gut Town but dropped that shortly after the “Vote Hito oops nevermind Vote Quilford” series of posts.

Calls Fonz scummy for his defenses of Captain Ajax (41 specifically was mentioned) and says that his “oh, Ajax was just mis-using terminology” in his attack on hito when hito is obv-Town.

Says KK is scum lurking out the early game. Also says that KK’s posts are terrible.

Finally he agrees with me that 108 is Fonzie trying to divert attention from the growing Ajax wagon.

Also he gives DeasVail +10 ‘Vollkan points’ for his “Quilford I suspect because he was scummier the last time I saw him as Town post”

LLD

– She wanted Quilford dead for the exact same reason Reck voted him … his early 180 on Hito.

Also wants BBMolla dead on principle since he’s “an unreadable slug”.

Says “Reck is 100% golden quality assured Town”.

Llama

- Agrees that KK is scum and Reck is Town.

Doesn’t think Gaoth is scum based on a number of reasons that I’ll just leave there for the moment.

Current sentiment in QT– If I could sacrifice myself right this second to carpet bomb Ajax / Fonz / KK that we would be taking out 2/3 of the scum team.

--

Also, someone please explain the reck townread. Last time I thought he could be scum and everyone was going on about how he was town, he was actually scum, so I'm not going to just blindly follow people in regard to him.

Unless you have something tangible you want to point to I think this is not something worth pursing at this stage.

Reck is pretty solid Town for immediately backing off Quilford after voting him. Scum Reck does not let what I would term a fairly possible Town lynch to swing based on the playerbase go just like that.

--

I'm trying to read as carefully as possible during times when I am NOT working, or cleaning house, or whatever. Inevitably, I'm going to miss some things.

This response is exactly why I think you are scum. You aren’t scum-hunting.

It’s been brought to your attention that I made the exact same comment as Quilford (who you called scum for it). And your response is this “Oops I didn’t see it”. No follow-up, no questions to me on the subject. Nada.

It’s as if you’ve been warned in your Team QT not to antagonize me because I have a tendency to go end up lynching scum who do that.

MoI, do you think the timing of hito's vote on me is suspect, or not?

Nope, not in the least. The functional difference between having 2 votes and 3 early in the game is pretty much exactly zero. And your “He’s scum for trying to divert attention from me” stance makes no sense in that it immediately attracted attention from you.

Let me ask – do you think Hito is still scum? If so why did you divert to Quilford other than his rather large case on you? Because your behavior looks like ‘shopping for a counterwagon’ to yourself as opposed to getting a read and pushing it honestly.

--

@Fonz

– please link me to completed Town games (especially Mini Themes) where you espouce “lurker hunting” Day 1 as a good tactic to utilize.

Player attacks another player on the basis that defending another player is 'something scum like to do.' I point out that the attack is based on bullshit. And that's 'Non-scumhunting fluff?' Pull the other one. Whether players' attacks on each other are justified or not is the very essence of content.

No, adding in that post is fluff. You didn’t directly link it to any particular case being made and just left it out there as “Hmmm, this is a nice Townie looking post”. Which case specifically were you referring to in indicating it was ‘invalid’?

Also – scum can and certainly do defend partners as well as defend Town for ‘Town cred’. To suggest it doesn’t happen is pretty bad from a motivation standpoint. Futhermore in this game-setup the fact that scum have an entrenched interest to not bus (the bigger their win the better for their team’s chances) defending their partners is a pretty solid motivation.

Well, for starters, the wagon on Ajax is bullshit, so I have no problem with being labeled as 'counterwagoning' it.

Well aside from just handwaving it why is it bullshit? Not providing reasons makes your statement at best worthless and possibly scumtastic.

Secondly, your characterization of my play in TV Mafia is off the mark. What I objected to was the fact that you jumped on a newbie straight away, and ramped up the pressure constantly, causing him to flail about and panic like nobody's business, and you never stopped to think 'Well hang on, isn't panicking and flailing under pressure a common newbie thing?' What I wanted to see was if that newbie would scumhunt when the pressure was turned down a little. I don't object to attacking weaker players in general, otherwise you'd never catch bad scum.

See I think you are trying to slip hairs right here. You don’t object to attacking weaker players in general but in that instance my interest in Rodion was ‘too pressure intensive’? Nope you went into great detail about your grand theory of the "Newbie Escalator" and how you believed in it strongly.

In this case (and I'll take your word for it that TheAm is a weak player, I've never played with him before... though your playing the newbie card on behalf of someone who's been on site nine months is noted) it's precisely the opposite of what you were doing there, where a newbie said something weird and you just rolled from there. Here, TheAmatuer was under basically no pressure, and chose not to scumhunt, and seemed, KK aside, to be getting away with it. That's not 'What a newbie does' it's 'What a scum does.' When I scumhunt, MOI, I look primarily for lack of town intent. That describes TheAmatuer best of everyone in the game.

Yes, TheAm isn’t a strong player. You may not have played with him but I’m guessing someone on your team has. Did you ask them about him at all?

I hardly played the ‘Newbie Card’ here. I didn’t say he was a Newb. I said he as a bad player and it’s damn convenient that of all the low content players who really haven’t been scum-hunting (KK, TheAm, T-Bone, Gaoth) you managed to land on the one that is pretty much the weakest of the bunch.

It's noteworthy that your post contains no actual defence of TheAmatuer as playing in anything resembling a pro-town manner. Just the newbie card, and the sound of chainsaws revving so loudly you can hear it a mile away.

Oh I see … I’m chainsawing for TheAm by calling you scumastic for your jump. But you aren’t chainsawing for Ajax by excusing his every move, ignoring the evidence of his scummy play, and trying to find anyone else to lynch in his place.

Your hypocrisy is noted.

Oh yeah, one last thing before I turn in for the night: this troubles me. This isn't the kind of game where we're going to accept noob/VI 'I always do it' excuses. It's not our job to say why not voting is bad (although it is): it's yours to demonstrate that there is a pro-town thought process behind your behavior.

Why do you feel it is better for the town for you to not vote on D1?

And suddenly after having been called out on his ignoring / excusing Ajax you suddenly finds Post 55 suspect. A post he's had plenty of time to inquire about before.

Feeling like all your hardcore defense of your partner is catching up to you Fonz?

[Captain Ajax]

MoI, do you think the timing of hito's vote on me is suspect, or not?

Nope, not in the least. The functional difference between having 2 votes and 3 early in the game is pretty much exactly zero. And your “He’s scum for trying to divert attention from me” stance makes no sense in that it immediately attracted attention from you.

Let me ask – do you think Hito is still scum? If so why did you divert to Quilford other than his rather large case on you? Because your behavior looks like ‘shopping for a counterwagon’ to yourself as opposed to getting a read and pushing it honestly.

The difference between 2 votes and 3 is indeed minimal. The difference between "tied for the most" and "only one with the most" is a lot bigger.

I'm still eyeing Hito as scum, yes. In fact, this exchange with Quilford has changed my mind somewhat. If Quilford is scum, he's being abnormally bold.

Unvote

Vote: hito

[The Fonz]

Player attacks another player on the basis that defending another player is 'something scum like to do.' I point out that the attack is based on bullshit. And that's 'Non-scumhunting fluff?' Pull the other one. Whether players' attacks on each other are justified or not is the very essence of content.

No, adding in that post is fluff. You didn’t directly link it to any particular case being made and just left it out there as “Hmmm, this is a nice Townie looking post”. Which case specifically were you referring to in indicating it was ‘invalid’?

Isn't it obvious? Quilford calling Ajax scum because he defended Hito, saying that 'defending is something scum like to do.'

Also – scum can and certainly do defend partners as well as defend Town for ‘Town cred’. To suggest it doesn’t happen is pretty bad from a motivation standpoint. Futhermore in this game-setup the fact that scum have an entrenched interest to not bus (the bigger their win the better for their team’s chances) defending their partners is a pretty solid motivation.

I feel like you're talking to me like I'm a raw newbie. I'm not saying scum never defend for town cred, I'm saying the idea that defending is inherently scummy is wrong. In just about every game I've ever played, I've found myself going to the barricades hard for someone I think is the target of a strong but shitty wagon. There's an absolute ton of motive for town to defend.

Well, for starters, the wagon on Ajax is bullshit, so I have no problem with being labeled as 'counterwagoning' it.

Well aside from just handwaving it why is it bullshit? Not providing reasons makes your statement at best worthless and possibly scumtastic.

I'm happy to pull all the reasons together into a full rebuttal of the case, but it won't be immediately as I'm going out shortly.

Secondly, your characterization of my play in TV Mafia is off the mark. What I objected to was the fact that you jumped on a newbie straight away, and ramped up the pressure constantly, causing him to flail about and panic like nobody's business, and you never stopped to think 'Well hang on, isn't panicking and flailing under pressure a common newbie thing?' What I wanted to see was if that newbie would scumhunt when the pressure was turned down a little. I don't object to attacking weaker players in general, otherwise you'd never catch bad scum.

See I think you are trying to slip hairs right here. You don’t object to attacking weaker players in general but in that instance my interest in Rodion was ‘too pressure intensive’? Nope you went into great detail about your grand theory of the "Newbie Escalator" and how you believed in it strongly.

See, I think you're trying to create a nonexistent link between two completely different situations (not that this is unusual for you. What was that game where we were arguing about my application of a particular towntell in endgame?) My meta, in general, is to be extremely unforgiving of antitown play. The way you went after Rodion, you attacked him because he phrased something badly to make it sound like he was advocating getting roleclaims for the sake of getting roleclaims. You then started accusing him of appeal to emotion for describing himself as a mislynch. Basically, he was always the focus of attention and everything that he did to try to relieve the pressure just caused it to build.

The simple formulation of the newbie escalator:

If a newbie does something scummy early, then starts flipping his shit, raising the temperature is only going to cause him to flip his shit more.

Let me remind you of the EXACT argument I made in that game, where you suggested that the Zinger wagon was an example of the newbie escalator:

Spoiler: My Play in TV Mafia

2. On the 'Newbie Escalator'

Firstly, as noted in the previous post, we don't think Zinger should be given a n00b pass. He has demonstrated himself to be somewhat competent in a different game on-site.

Secondly, it was Rodion, not Vifam. We have been trying to analyze the Vifam wagon, and have really struggled to get our collective heads around it.

Thirdly, there's an obvious difference between the two cases. You jumped on something Rodion said that seemed to us either the result of poor phrasing or simple noobishness (and for the record, we believe that it was reasonable to interpret the threat of a Vezok quicklynch as real since it's happened before). You then went through, calling his defenses and explanations scummy, and such that you'd put him in the position of being under a large amount of pressure and giving the appearance of cracking before he'd even had the chance to scumhunt. We felt a better way to discern his alignment would be to turn down the heat, and see if he made a real effort to help the town when NOT in the spotlight, then come back to him later if he started behaving in a scummy manner when people weren't looking.

By contrast, Zinger came under attack in the first place precisely because he didn't say anything useful or relevant when other people were the focus of attention (and as such, there was the possibility of saying something useful or interesting about them). Our particular focus in this game has been on people who haven't done anything to make us think they have town motives. You could call that 'weak' if you want, but in our eyes not scumhunting is the number one scumtell.

You're arguing that my play here is inconsistent with what I did there. You couldn't be more wrong.

Yes, TheAm isn’t a strong player. You may not have played with him but I’m guessing someone on your team has. Did you ask them about him at all?

Not specifically. I asked my partners at the beginning if anyone had any useful meta experience on what to expect from players in the other games that they'd played with before, and they basically didn't say anything.

I hardly played the ‘Newbie Card’ here. I didn’t say he was a Newb. I said he as a bad player and it’s damn convenient that of all the low content players who really haven’t been scum-hunting (KK, TheAm, T-Bone, Gaoth) you managed to land on the one that is pretty much the weakest of the bunch.

I landed on the one who most clearly seems to have a non-town mindset going on, and I explained why that was. Incidentally, KK seems to be scumhunting to me - he seems to be trying to get a wagon on TheAm, no? T-Bone and Gaoth I've hardly noticed are in the game. That's not a good sign, admittedly.

It's noteworthy that your post contains no actual defence of TheAmatuer as playing in anything resembling a pro-town manner. Just the newbie card, and the sound of chainsaws revving so loudly you can hear it a mile away.

Oh I see … I’m chainsawing for TheAm by calling you scumastic for your jump. But you aren’t chainsawing for Ajax by excusing his every move, ignoring the evidence of his scummy play, and trying to find anyone else to lynch in his place.

Your hypocrisy is noted.

Well, no, because I'm openly defending Captain Ajax, while you're attacking TheAmatuer's attacker. Which is, you know, called Chainsaw Defending. Though in the interests of balance, and due to the fact I've calmed down since I made that post, I should note that I don't actually think an MOI-TheAm team is particularly likely. I can see why a town MOI would be going for me (I expected before the game started that we would end up butting heads, since I don't recall ever having agreed with anything you said, about anything) and I could see why scum MOI would want to use me attacking a bad townie to discredit me, and later get me lynched. I don't actually think you'd be this brazen as scum.

Oh yeah, one last thing before I turn in for the night: this troubles me. This isn't the kind of game where we're going to accept noob/VI 'I always do it' excuses. It's not our job to say why not voting is bad (although it is): it's yours to demonstrate that there is a pro-town thought process behind your behavior.

Why do you feel it is better for the town for you to not vote on D1?

And suddenly after having been called out on his ignoring / excusing Ajax you suddenly finds Post 55 suspect. A post he's had plenty of time to inquire about before.

Feeling like all your hardcore defense of your partner is catching up to you Fonz?

*Sigh* That was the post I was coming to the thread to make when I got sidetracked by your latest piece of oral defecation. I forgot about it because I was pissed at you. I'm not going to not post things because you might attack them, because then I'd never post anything.

[Kublai Khan]

Also, why is Quilford ignoring theamatuer?

Uh... I'm not? He'd made two pretty inconsequential posts at the time of my last post. I hadn't really addressed anyone apart from Ajax and the other few people who asked me questions.

However his last post awoke an interest in him, one which I will address when I return home today.

Well, the thing is. You mention that Captain Ajax is attempting to buddy to xRECKONERx by flattering him (Post 67) which is a hell of a stretch. But theamatuer blatantly states "OMG its reckoner. He's like a legend." but that gets no reaction from you at all. Except after the fact where you mention that pretty town due to the enthusiasm involved.

The rest of your analysis in [post=125]]/post] seems to just another episode in a series of "Let me interpret anything said as a sign of scuminess". For fun, could you analyze MLK Jr.'s "I Have a Dream" speech for scumminess?
---
The Fonz is lurker-hunting? On Page 4?
---

KK:

I prefer being scum.

Hmm.. I get the feeling that Team Mafia is the only game condition in which you'd state that.
---

So my teammates thoughts on the game:

Um.. Who cares? I mean, all due respect to the members of your group (seriously, I respect each one), but you are not confirmed town and therefore not a reliable liaison for their information/thoughts.

First, why should your teammates thoughts hold any water in this game at all? If you are scum,

they will try to help you win as scum

and will tell you anything to help you achieve your win condition. Or not. You could simply be making up their opinions and abusing their reputations in lieu of making your own case.

Second, I'm alive in 2 large (non-Team Mafia) games and I work at two jobs and I have a young family. This game is only 3 fucking days old and I'm accused of being "lurking scum" for posting once every day in a game that I haven't completely wrapped my head around? Are you shitting serious?

So again, all due respect to your group, but they can go fuck themselves because they are not only wrong, they are stupidly wrong. And that's the last word on the subject because I'm not going to waste my time arguing with what is the mafia equivalent of voices you're hearing in your head.

[The Fonz]

*I don't think you'd be this brazen as scum WITH THEAMATUER.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Fonz

– In case you missed it – you didn’t discuss whether you had lurker hunted in the past as Town. If you can provide me links again that would be fantastic.

I'm happy to pull all the reasons together into a full rebuttal of the case, but it won't be immediately as I'm going out shortly.

Whenever you get back and get the time I’d be pleased as punch to see this. The fact that you were happy to call it bullshit without doing so still concerns me.

Isn't it obvious? Quilford calling Ajax scum because he defended Hito, saying that 'defending is something scum like to do.'

But that’s the point – you made a generic “Accusing people of being scummy for defending people is stupid” MD style statement.

Why, given you agree that scum do defend for various reasons (Town cred, etc) was Quilford’s specific attack on him scummy?

See, I think you're trying to create a nonexistent link between two completely different situations (not that this is unusual for you. What was that game where we were arguing about my application of a particular towntell in endgame?) My meta, in general, is to be extremely unforgiving of antitown play. The way you went after Rodion, you attacked him because he phrased something badly to make it sound like he was advocating getting roleclaims for the sake of getting roleclaims. You then started accusing him of appeal to emotion for describing himself as a mislynch. Basically, he was always the focus of attention and everything that he did to try to relieve the pressure just caused it to build.

Well we will disagree again (not that it is unusual, as you have properly noted).

Not specifically. I asked my partners at the beginning if anyone had any useful meta experience on what to expect from players in the other games that they'd played with before, and they basically didn't say anything.

So you know nothing of TheAm but loudly protest when someone who has both played and Modded Bad town TheAm says he is such. Ok, I understand you aren’t going to take my word but you seem unwilling to put in the legwork to determine for yourself. That I find is suspect.

I landed on the one who most clearly seems to have a non-town mindset going on, and I explained why that was.

Incidentally, KK seems to be scumhunting to me - he seems to be trying to get a wagon on TheAm, no?

T-Bone and Gaoth I've hardly noticed are in the game. That's not a good sign, admittedly

I want to specifically discuss the bolded statement because it bears examination –

Here are the links to KK’s posts at the point you made this – Post 20, Post 21 and [/post=99][/post].

I’d like you to point out where KK is ‘scum-hunting’ in trying to get a TheAm wagon in a manner that isn’t pure RVS.

In 20 he votes TheAm for OMGUS, policy, and buddying. I’d like you to characterize how that’s a valid scum-hunting effort since two of the three of those clearly aren’t scum-tells and buddying is pretty damn subjective (similar to defending which you don’t believe is a cart blanche scum-tell).

In 21 he comments to Hito sayhing that Post 13 is not Pro Town. No pushing of TheAm there.

In 99 he asks Quilford a question about why buddying makes TheAm Town, responds to my question calling himself an idiot, and asks Deas if he prefers scum or Town.

I’d like you to discuss what about these posts you find to be scum-hunting from KK that shows him pushing TheAm trying to get a wagon.

Well, no, because I'm openly defending Captain Ajax, while you're attacking TheAmatuer's attacker.

You attacked Quilford who was attacking Captain Ajax but that set aside – you are looking for an “exact definition” of chainsawing when the fact remains that you are doing your utmost to dismantle a wagon on Ajax and find a different wagon.

Given I find Ajax obv-scum (and so do all my partners) you aren’t getting the benefit of the doubt on that at the moment. As more information comes it I will continue to develop my reads.

*Sigh* That was the post I was coming to the thread to make when I got sidetracked by your latest piece of oral defecation. I forgot about it because I was pissed at you. I'm not going to not post things because you might attack them, because then I'd never post anything.

See this is a prime example of why we find you suspect. You could have posted this without the very insulting phrases like “oral defecation” and still made your exact point. The need for you to be insulting at this stage stems from two possibilities

1. Hoping to get me ‘riled up’ and focused on not making logical sense / getting into a mud-slinging contest.
2. Hoping to subtly undermine my perception with others.

Neither are Pro-Town. And that’s rather suspect given your self-professed “I hate Anti-Town play”.

On another note – why didn’t you enter this game with the “Town don’t lie” pact I have seen you, as Town, open with in the past?

--

Hmm.. I get the feeling that Team Mafia is the only game condition in which you'd state that.

That’s not actually true as I’ve seen him indicate this in non-Team Mafia games myself.

Um.. Who cares? I mean, all due respect to the members of your group (seriously, I respect each one), but you are not confirmed town and therefore not a reliable liaison for their information/thoughts.

First, why should your teammates thoughts hold any water in this game at all? If you are scum, they will try to help you win as scum and will tell you anything to help you achieve your win condition. Or not. You could simply be making up their opinions and abusing their reputations in lieu of making your own case.

Second, I'm alive in 2 large (non-Team Mafia) games and I work at two jobs and I have a young family. This game is only 3 fucking days old and I'm accused of being "lurking scum" for posting once every day in a game that I haven't completely wrapped my head around? Are you shitting serious?

So again, all due respect to your group, but they can go fuck themselves because they are not only wrong, they are stupidly wrong. And that's the last word on the subject because I'm not going to waste my time arguing with what is the mafia equivalent of voices you're hearing in your head.

In regards to this –

1st and 2nd paragraph - Who cares about the input of 3 more pairs of eyes simply because I am not “confirmed Town”? This is a terrible, terrible post. If I ever die I wil become confirmed Town and thus the input of all my partners thus is input from 3 more confirmed Town which is very helpful. Pretending it makes no Pro-Town sense to not give this information is bad.

Furthermore you know who has reason to not be presenting their teammates reads in thread – scum. Because they either have to invent said reads since their teammates will not be scum-hunting since they are actually scum or get their teammates to fabricate reads.

3rd Paragraph – I’m also in a ton of games myself. And I have job and family also. The fact you’ve dropped in our opinion no actual scum-hunting is pretty much the reason you have drawn the read you have.

4th Paragraph – Yes, this is just plain terrible and Anti-Town. Your reaction is very vitriolic in comparison to the suspicion. But now I need to see whether your reaction is in line with Town KK or Scum. I don’t have any direct experience I can remember with non-hydra KK so it may take some time.

[Zar]

Yeah, Kublai feels town based on his interest of keeping info away from scum in #13, and noticing quilford was attacking Ajax but ignoring theam for attempting to buddy Reck shows his intent in piercing into possible partnerships . Plus, his reaction in #133 to MOI's post looks genuine.

Molla's vote hop into Gaoth, OTOH, was a bit quick to and comes right after being questioned about keeping his vote on quilford.

This Gaoth lurker-wagon is far too easy.
Zar, do you still think Gaoth is the scummiest, based on that single post?

The reason for which I'm voting Gaoth is not because he has just that post. The tone of the post feels off; Gaoth came in already justifying himself for not having posted earlier (it wasn't as if anyone else was expecting him).

Wow, three pages before I even know the game is up. Terrific.

Reads so far as pretty much all set-up/mechanics speculation, and I thank you all for doing all that heavy lifting for me.

My one question so far is the scum read on Ajax. Seems premature. Are some of these still RVS that haven't moved?

And Fonz, which argument of DV's are you referring to?

The post in itself is a filler buying himself time. He does some soft-defend against the current wagon. On the one hand, he claims to have read the thread (when asserting it's all been about mechanics/and specs) but fails to see that the votes on Ajax are not RVS.

Then at the same time, it drops a question to Fonz about something he has already addressed.

I think Gaoth can do with the pressure to come into the thread and explain himself a bit better.

Will come back with more later.

[xRECKONERx]

FUCK YOU WALLPOSTS

anyone else getting scumvibes off of literally every post Zar makes

[hitogoroshi]

I'm currently not going to say anything regarding Ajax because I'm playing a game of Hands Up If You See It and I don't want to end it prematurely. Feel free to ISO Ajax and put your hands up if you see it. Of course even saying this means a teammate might point it out to him but c'est la vie.

Um.. Who cares? I mean, all due respect to the members of your group (seriously, I respect each one), but you are not confirmed town and therefore not a reliable liaison for their information/thoughts.

First, why should your teammates thoughts hold any water in this game at all? If you are scum, they will try to help you win as scum and will tell you anything to help you achieve your win condition. Or not. You could simply be making up their opinions and abusing their reputations in lieu of making your own case.

This is a very bitter bit of text and I don't see why it has any right to be. Having the thoughts of town players is a pretty awesome thing. There's of course the chance MoI is scum and making it up (he's one of my stronger town reads at the moment, though) but then the information he had to 'make up' from his teammates is still significant and is still something I want to see. Of course, you can be mad for being accused of lurking when the game has just started, but to go off on a rant basicially saying "What's the point of giving teammreads, that's stupid" is to me very worrying, since the biggest concept I can think of to be

mad

at team reads is "Shit, if all four people in the team are actively scumhunting, it produces a lot of hard-to-fake content."

I think that Fonz and MoI are both town, by the by, and you two oughta detangle yourselves. I don't want to start a fight, but I do have to say...

See this is a prime example of why we find you suspect. You could have posted this without the very insulting phrases like “oral defecation” and still made your exact point.

I'm pretty sure both you and GreyICE exhibit fairly similar behavior when people attack you. Actually, in A Storm of Swords I literally asked Mina and Sotty to read you for me because your tone under fire seemed to be very...sneer-ish, which I read as scummy, but you'd do it to basically any attack on you. Of course you really were scum in ASoS which sorta undermines my point but etc. I'm pretty sure you guys are no stranger to insults on others as town, is my general drift, and should probably be more wary than I am about using that as a tell - and I've already pretty much thrown it away, aside from a very specific case.

I know this isn't the full extent of the cases on each other and everything, but I actually have shit to do today (essay to finish) and even in the best of times I have zero interest in wading in to a wall-to-wall combat and trying to explain why I think you're both misguided. If it was a 1v1 I'd rather lynch Fonz than MoI, but I'm pretty sure it ain't a 1v1 and you're both town.

Reck dawg, you probably town, but you wanna get that vote in play?

Oh yeah, Quilford is like town read number one. I guess I haven't said that in thread yet? I have said it now.

Theam, please either vote for someone new in your next post or really try to sell me on this 1v1 of yours.

[xRECKONERx]

k

vote gaoth

[xRECKONERx]

PSA: I'm playing LoL to relax until this evening, where I will then have to bury my face in scotch and cigarettes to try and pound out 70 pages of a screenplay in one sitting. Upon completion, I will promptly pass the fuck out, then be up and at 'em tomorrow to drive all the goddamn way to Washington DC with my boyfriend's

mother

to see his sister graduate, and on this trip, we will be announcing that we are engaged

which is sure to make the fucking sparks fly

.

I say all of this to say... you've got me for about another 2-3 hours, then I am gonna make myself scarce until Monday.

[hitogoroshi]

I would like exactly two reads from you on people who aren't Goath. Either direction is fine, they can be repeats of stuff you've said before. Just the two things you want town not to forget while you're gone.

[xRECKONERx]

1. MoI's buddying of me and his characterization of his team going "Yeah Reck's 100% town" feels a little slimy and feels like appeasement.

2. Zar's posts ring hollow.

[Quilford]

Reck, MoI's town. And I'm pretty sure that's just Zar's style.

Instead of feeling around for scum based on these vague impressions of their posts, look at #126 (second post of this page) and then review the case against Ajax and how he's responded.

[Quilford]

And Gaoth is a terrible vote. I can't believe there's a four-man wagon on him for his one post.

[xRECKONERx]

Reck, MoI's town. And I'm pretty sure that's just Zar's style.

Instead of feeling around for scum based on these vague impressions of their posts, look at #126 (second post of this page) and then review the case against Ajax and how he's responded.

And Gaoth is a terrible vote. I can't believe there's a four-man wagon on him for his one post.

I generally dislike the way you play mafia.

"Reck, ignore your own thoughts about MoI and listen to my reasonless assumptions. And let me defend Zar's scummy play with LOLMETA. Ignore your own thoughts about the game and instead focus on the person I've been tunneling on the entire game & refusing to give anyone else a second glance. Oh and your vote is bad because catching scum (Gaoth) in one post is ludicrous even though that's pretty much what I did at the start of the game with Ajax."

[T-Bone]

Having some RL issues, V/LA. I have PMed the relevant Mods

[Lost Butterfly]

Gaoth is being prodded

[Captain Ajax]

Wow, three pages before I even know the game is up. Terrific.

Reads so far as pretty much all set-up/mechanics speculation, and I thank you all for doing all that heavy lifting for me.

My one question so far is the scum read on Ajax. Seems premature. Are some of these still RVS that haven't moved?

And Fonz, which argument of DV's are you referring to?

The post in itself is a filler buying himself time. He does some soft-defend against the current wagon. On the one hand, he claims to have read the thread (when asserting it's all been about mechanics/and specs) but fails to see that the votes on Ajax are not RVS.

Then at the same time, it drops a question to Fonz about something he has already addressed.

I think Gaoth can do with the pressure to come into the thread and explain himself a bit better.

Will come back with more later.

Sadly, I don't think this wagon will pressure him to do much of anything. This looks like the classic flake-out. Perhaps I'm wrong, and the mod prod will get Gaoth back into the game. But more likely, he'll be replaced, and we'll be back to square one.

It's the age-old question: should lurkers be bandwagoned, or not? I think it's pretty pointless, personally.

Let me turn to one of the Gaoth-voters:

Do you agree with the Gaoth votes, then?

Yep.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Gaoth

If one of DV/Quil is scum, I'd have to say it's DV atm.

Just for clarification: is this because of anything scummy about DV, or is it just because you think Quilford is townish?

[Kublai Khan]

Also, why is Quilford ignoring theamatuer?

Pop Quiz – why is Quilford the only one who should be drawing scrutiny for ‘ignoring’ TheAm?

I think I missed this earlier.. But I think a previous comment showed the gist of my thinking. I am wondering about Quilford's theories on buddying and scumminess and how different levels invoke different suspicions from him.

Since it's a little obvious anyway...I am a scummie judge, and I'm going to be my groups representative. Not claiming who or how many, but when I say "We're done" players in my judging group don't need to answer when we ask if every group is spoken for.

Well, here's the thing. I'm in group 1C with 3 members, you mentioned a 4-0 vote, and nobody spoke up as not being a judge. So I'm thinking that everyone is a judge. There are 3 groups of 3 and 1 group of 4. I don't think voicing this information hurts the town because I'm sure that scum already know it (since they would be in the judging groups as well).

But to be sure, you, me, & MagnaofIllusion are representatives so far. Is there anything else that wants to speak up as a fourth rep to confirm my theory?

I’m also in a ton of games myself. And I have job and family also. The fact you’ve dropped in our opinion no actual scum-hunting is pretty much the reason you have drawn the read you have.

And I've played games where I've seen you go a couple of days either not posting or skim-posting before jumping back in with a massive catch-up post. So I'm not understanding your attack.

Yes, this is just plain terrible and Anti-Town. Your reaction is very vitriolic in comparison to the suspicion. But now I need to see whether your reaction is in line with Town KK or Scum. I don’t have any direct experience I can remember with non-hydra KK so it may take some time.

Actually, you don't have any experience with hydra-KK. I've only been in a hydra once and I don't remember any of your group being in that Mini.

Who cares about the input of 3 more pairs of eyes simply because I am not “confirmed Town”? This is a terrible, terrible post. If I ever die I wil become confirmed Town and thus the input of all my partners thus is input from 3 more confirmed Town which is very helpful. Pretending it makes no Pro-Town sense to not give this information is bad.

Furthermore you know who has reason to not be presenting their teammates reads in thread – scum. Because they either have to invent said reads since their teammates will not be scum-hunting since they are actually scum or get their teammates to fabricate reads.

You say that like it's a hard thing to do. I could say "Hey, in my team's QT kuribo said that he reads MagnaofIllusion as scum and if I didn't vote for him he'd, and I quote, RIP MY ARMS OFF ATTACH ALL THE FINGERS TOGETHER WITH CHINESE FINGERCUFFS AND BEAT ME TO DEATH USING SHOALIN-STYLE NUNCHUNK-FU. and Amrun and Untrod Tripod agreed, so.. vote."

There, easily faked. Even if I didn't fake it, does it actually hold any merit? If I were to die after posting that, should other people think that you are 4 times more likely to be scum?

Look, I understand where you're coming from. The reads of partners should be considered when you are weighing reads and considering your next post. But I'm saying that they aren't substitute for cases. You posted gut reads from your teammates that say I'm "scum" and "terrible". How the hell did you want me to respond to that?

Players reads coming up in next post.