Heroes of Comedy Game Over - He who laughs last!

Korlash · Post Post #725 (ISO) » Wed May 23, 2012 8:16 am

Scotty-Boy wrote:As V2V already answered,

1. Did we even know there was a real vig? I am assuming not. Vigs are not extremely common, why would scum V2V go out of his way to fake a role like that. Either A. It doesn't exist, target is on his back the longer he remains alive or B. the real vig shoots him

2. It would have to be a really stupid doctor to protect based on a hint of a soft-claim

3. This is highly doubtful.

1. False. If there was no vig, V2V gets at least two-three days of lynch immunity out of it. This is the optimal scenario for a scum fakeclaiming. The idea of 'outing the real vig' falls into this category of "If there is a vig though..." making the plan work on two separate levels for two separate scenarios.

-Vigs aren't extremely common: Exactly. Every scum's first and foremost plan for a fakeclaim would be to net 'pro-town' points. Vig is uncommon enough to reduce the risk of counterclaim, but common enough and powerful enough to make the counterclaim as beneficial to the scum team as the townie points would have been. (Given the obviousness of this combined with Fate's flip and V2V's own statements the focus has been put on the latter scenario but that doesn't mean we ignore the prior either.)

And before you ask, 'why would a scum fakeclaim for townie points with no pressure on him???" it's V2V's own words, he felt out of his depth. If you can't keep up with the game, then when the time comes that people start hounding on you as they inevitably do to people who don't post content, then you have nothing to stand on and your chance for survival dwindles. Gaining early town favor lets you play the game (or not play the game) how you want. V2V would be able to 'fake' keeping up with the game since he no longer would need to keep up his appearance.

2. Are you high? Explain a better doctor protect... Doctors attempt to protect town power roles, a soft claim is a hinted power roles, therefore doctors protect softclaims. The only thing they would protect over a softclaim is a full claim (which we didn't have). This is an idiotic response mate. "Doctors don't protect power roles, hyuck hyuck."

3. I agree. To assume this is to doubt V2V's own statements of feeling out of his depth. Since I believe those statements, I have to agree this isn't likely to be a reason scum-V2V would have done what he did.

Scotty-Boy wrote:This is completely absurd. Has anyone actually seen scum go OOOH WE HAVE A ROLEBLOCKER! I GUESS THERES A VIG!

So you guys really do have a RB? Man, I was just speculating on it but it's nice to know I was right... Tammy and Yates' apparent inability to think of this makes me like them more.

if um... If you were just 'speculating' on the presence of a RB here... Then why did you ignore it with your 'defense' of V2V? Your response to Yates' #1 is completely destroyed once you consider the possible presence of a scum RB... Seems to me you're playing both angles here mate..

Scott Brosius · Post Post #726 (ISO) » Wed May 23, 2012 8:26 am

↑ Yates wrote:Post to add, you don't even need to look very far. Post 720, which is exactly ONE post above yours, addresses everything you said. Logic!

Yes it addresses it with completely far-fetched evil scum plans that are not likely at all. You say VJ would be unlynchable if Fate wasn't killed. There were three outcomes here.

1. The one that happened, v2v softclaims vig, an actual vig flips, major suspicion placed upon v2v

2. Fate is not killed, scum v2v continues with his gambit, Fate shoots him (or claims) v2v is dead

3. There is no vig in this game at all, v2v claims vig and then dies when he cannot prove a shot.

There is little scum motivation for this move. Is it a stupid move as town? Certainly. It's highly unlikely that it is a scum gambit. I'm starting to feel better about you since you were not as adamant about Korlashscum as I initially thought which means your v2v vote isn't as bad (besides the fact that the case is bad)

One would assume the vig flip would include any modifiers in it, so Fate was a full vig.

↑ Korlash wrote:
Scotty-Boy wrote:As V2V already answered,

1. Did we even know there was a real vig? I am assuming not. Vigs are not extremely common, why would scum V2V go out of his way to fake a role like that. Either A. It doesn't exist, target is on his back the longer he remains alive or B. the real vig shoots him

2. It would have to be a really stupid doctor to protect based on a hint of a soft-claim

3. This is highly doubtful.

1. False. If there was no vig, V2V gets at least two-three days of lynch immunity out of it. This is the optimal scenario for a scum fakeclaiming. The idea of 'outing the real vig' falls into this category of "If there is a vig though..." making the plan work on two separate levels for two separate scenarios.

-Vigs aren't extremely common: Exactly. Every scum's first and foremost plan for a fakeclaim would be to net 'pro-town' points. Vig is uncommon enough to reduce the risk of counterclaim, but common enough and powerful enough to make the counterclaim as beneficial to the scum team as the townie points would have been. (Given the obviousness of this combined with Fate's flip and V2V's own statements the focus has been put on the latter scenario but that doesn't mean we ignore the prior either.)

And before you ask, 'why would a scum fakeclaim for townie points with no pressure on him???" it's V2V's own words, he felt out of his depth. If you can't keep up with the game, then when the time comes that people start hounding on you as they inevitably do to people who don't post content, then you have nothing to stand on and your chance for survival dwindles. Gaining early town favor lets you play the game (or not play the game) how you want. V2V would be able to 'fake' keeping up with the game since he no longer would need to keep up his appearance.

2. Are you high? Explain a better doctor protect... Doctors attempt to protect town power roles, a soft claim is a hinted power roles, therefore doctors protect softclaims. The only thing they would protect over a softclaim is a full claim (which we didn't have). This is an idiotic response mate. "Doctors don't protect power roles, hyuck hyuck."

3. I agree. To assume this is to doubt V2V's own statements of feeling out of his depth. Since I believe those statements, I have to agree this isn't likely to be a reason scum-V2V would have done what he did.

Scotty-Boy wrote:This is completely absurd. Has anyone actually seen scum go OOOH WE HAVE A ROLEBLOCKER! I GUESS THERES A VIG!

So you guys really do have a RB? Man, I was just speculating on it but it's nice to know I was right... Tammy and Yates' apparent inability to think of this makes me like them more.

if um... If you were just 'speculating' on the presence of a RB here... Then why did you ignore it with your 'defense' of V2V? Your response to Yates' #1 is completely destroyed once you consider the possible presence of a scum RB... Seems to me you're playing both angles here mate..

1. Two to three days is absurd. Maybe two at most. Vig is an easily confirmable role. How long are you going to let a claimed vig live without any proof. If he claimed doctor, that is obviously a much harder role to confirm.

2. If I was a doctor, I'm protecting my top town read, not a weird awkward barely softclaim. You can twist my words to say "doctors don't protect PRs", but I would not have protected v2v based off that offhand barely softclaim

Yawn, I knew putting that example would get at least one HAHA GUESS YOU HAVE A ROLEBLOCKER LOLSCUMZ. The point is, it is laughable to think V2V specifically claimed vig due to whatever PR the mafia do/don't have especially on Day 1.The fact that the case on v2v needs to stoop to this idiotic point shows how flawed it is.

Time to go in a different direction.

Unvote
Vote: pizzadudes7

Korlash · Post Post #727 (ISO) » Wed May 23, 2012 8:31 am

Yates wrote:Well, for one you are leaving out the context. Most noticeably lacking is the ENORMOUS caveat that follows where I move on from you and illustrate where I think VJ is the better play. Otherwise, I think that statement is self-explanatory. I think you are scummy but not scummy enough to vote for. All of my "evidence" on you being scum is based on supposition and gut feeling. That's part of why I am requesting the Korlash-wagon to present some convincing arguments. I really just need one or two pieces of hard evidence that justifies these feelings to be willing to vote for you. Then again if the VJ wagon goes through and he flips scum, I'd be much more inclined to believe that your playing style comes across as scummy to me even though you would probably be Town. In addition to my evidence on VJ being much more tangible, this is part of the reason I'd rather see VJ get lynched before you. If I can get a scum lynch and a Town clear, that narrows my suspect pool.

*shakes head* I actually didn't take it out of context with the point I was trying to make, but I suppose I could have picked a better way to illustrate it than what I bolder... You agreed that you 'thought I was scum' yet your most recent post had suggested (to me) you had not seen anything that was actually scummy from me making me want an explanation as to why you previously said you 'agreed I was scum'. The caveat of moving on to V2V was irrelevant since I only wanted an explanation of why you thought I was scum and there is no reason you can't do both.

Obviously, since you answered it you don't need to respond to the above. "Supposition and gut feeling" will suffice for that.

I do have to ask though about Rat. He is the one most failing in the 'give the case on Korlash' out of all three of the people voting me. Why do you think he is town again? And does this not at all bother you? Both Tammy and Librarian have ultimately said in some form their votes on me are similar to your own feelings, yet Rat is the one that appears to be claiming to have real reasons.

Yates wrote:If Fate had not been killed last night, VJ would be unlynchable. What we don't know about the vig role is if it was an every night role or of the 1, 2, or 3 shot variety. If it was a 1-shot role and Fate was forced to use it on the fakeclaim, VJ would have survived the night under the Doc's protection so scum STILL would have gotten rid of the vig even if they didn't publicly out him. If Fate and VJ both live to see today, Fate has to decide if he outs VJ's fakeclaim. Then VJ does exactly what he is doing now; he claims he was trying to draw a NK b/c he is just a lowly VT and has no idea why scum would ever make that fakeclaim. Well, obviously there are LOT's of reasons fakeclaiming vig was a good scum move.

You're starting to go a little too far here. Keep speculation 'relatively' general. Once you get too specific (as in talking about X-shot variations of Vigs here) the odds of your speculation being wrong start to increase exponentially. Keep it at, "If fate had not been killed, V2V would be unlynchable." That's good, that's true.

And while I agree with the rest of what you say here, obviously claiming vig yesterday could be a good scum move for a hell of a lot of reasons, I still believe the bit about him feeling out of his depth was true so the idea that this was what he was shooting for is unlikely. Again though, don't disagree with you that all of this makes sense, just that I think V2V's mind would have been elsewhere. (Focusing on the easier game he would have to play or the help he would be to his team if he pulled a counterclaim)

Korlash · Post Post #728 (ISO) » Wed May 23, 2012 8:57 am

Scotty-Boy wrote:1. The one that happened, v2v softclaims vig, an actual vig flips, major suspicion placed upon v2v

2. Fate is not killed, scum v2v continues with his gambit, Fate shoots him (or claims) v2v is dead

3. There is no vig in this game at all, v2v claims vig and then dies when he cannot prove a shot.

1. Aye, but the vig is dead so from a scum perspective one of the best outcomes of the 'plan' would have occurred so it's a win regardless.

2. V2V drawing the vig away from his partners would save them WHILE confirming the presence of a vig. Giving his statements about the game, this would be an acceptabel outcome. Fate claiming today would still net the winning scenario of outing the vig and the proper town play for a 1v1 between vigs is to not lynch either of them. V2V continues to survive, the vig is outed, and if the scum have a RB the 1v1 continues until another power role outs themselves to solve it. This nets survivability for V2V and a second outed power role, also acceptable.

3. He claims to be Rbed forever and survives at minimum three days. (I could even speculate on a plan that confirms him as 'town' in this situation but it's moot since there is a vig and since no one is as brilliant as me when it comes to great scum plans.)

Scotty-boy wrote:1. Two to three days is absurd. Maybe two at most. Vig is an easily confirmable role. How long are you going to let a claimed vig live without any proof. If he claimed doctor, that is obviously a much harder role to confirm.

'Hey guys I was RBed... Oh snap, I was Rbed again... Hey you know that RBer the scum have? He got me again!' - Minimum three days, check.

The whole -He claimed without any pressure on him- and barring any other power role claiming to have been RBed, town would not lynch him until crunch time dictated it or another power role stepped in.

Scotty-Boy wrote:2. If I was a doctor, I'm protecting my top town read, not a weird awkward barely softclaim. You can twist my words to say "doctors don't protect PRs", but I would not have protected v2v based off that offhand barely softclaim

An opinion you're welcome to have but the reason I fear doctors have such low save percentages. To be a good doctor means being a smart doctor, you don't protect who you want to save you protect who the scum are going to kill.

If you play doctor differently, fine. Your right, I won't stop you. But the general consensus of players would be to protect power roles over 'town reads' when the situation arose. From a scum perspective, it is far easier to pull doc protection by claiming a power role than it is to pull it from 'looking town' as well, which is what this speculation is about. So the way you play doctor, sadly, means literally shit in this argument.

Scotty-Boy wrote:Yawn, I knew putting that example would get at least one HAHA GUESS YOU HAVE A ROLEBLOCKER LOLSCUMZ. The point is, it is laughable to think V2V specifically claimed vig due to whatever PR the mafia do/don't have especially on Day 1.The fact that the case on v2v needs to stoop to this idiotic point shows how flawed it is.

I agree it's laughable. i disagree how much you are defending V2V by ignoring the possible presence of a RB though since you obviously have thought about it.

The V2V case never needed to stoop to this idiotic point, it's built on strong reasonable points. Attempting to call the entire case flawed because one person said something stupid is pathetic. the case on V2V was not built upon, nor ever included this point. It was an opinion of one single player that came after the case itself. Strike three sir, you're outta here...

Yates · Post Post #729 (ISO) » Wed May 23, 2012 10:10 am

↑ Korlash wrote:Why do you think he is town again?

I ISOed him in post 396. He hasn't done anything since that would make me reconsider his alignment.

↑ Korlash wrote:And does this not at all bother you? Both Tammy and Librarian have ultimately said in some form their votes on me are similar to your own feelings, yet Rat is the one that appears to be claiming to have real reasons.

I'm on record as saying the case on you is based on supposition and "bad feelings." That applies equally to anyone currently voting for you, not just Pappums. The fact that my three strongest Town reads are voting for you only bothers me in the sense that it makes me think I should join the wagon rather than stick to my principals.

vijay2vasandani · Post Post #730 (ISO) » Wed May 23, 2012 12:03 pm

Korlash, am I scum or not?

The Mini-Librarian · Post Post #731 (ISO) » Wed May 23, 2012 1:56 pm

@Mod: prod/replace pizzadudes. Thanks.

@Scott B: Is your vote on Pizza just for being a useless lurker or for actual reasons? If it's for the first reason I'm going to have to ask you to vote for someone else. Hopefully we can get a replacement for that slot.

@Korlash: I see what your saying. Let's just say I'm not convinced. I'm going to keep my eyes open for other possibilities, but right now you are the best lynch for today in POV.

@Vijay: Do you have any other scumread besides Yates?

vijay2vasandani · Post Post #732 (ISO) » Wed May 23, 2012 6:31 pm

^ I'm sure I will, but none off the top of my head. I was hoping to die, remember? I can reread and give them to you if you want.

Tammy · Post Post #733 (ISO) » Wed May 23, 2012 7:02 pm

↑ Scott Brosius wrote:
↑ Tammy wrote:
↑ Scott Brosius wrote:As I said I'll keep an eye on it. Don't knock yourself over patting yourself on the back for contributing

I'm not patting myself on the back. I find it odd that you make sure to mention what you didn't like about my predecessor and say you're going to keep an eye on my slot, but don't bother to even mention that it's been filled or that there's been contribution. You should be able to have some kind of an opinion, but you don't.

Once you stop posting massive walls, I will read them. So no, I don't have an opinion yet. You are reaching really hard here.

Well then you might be waiting awhile. I'm a bit wordy. I'm not reaching hard at all. It's my job as town to find scum, and when someone looks like they're not giving an opinion on someone

but keeping an eye on the slot

that gives me an immediate reaction. It makes me twitchy...scum usually make me twitchy. If you had a scum reading on my predecessor, one would presume that you would, as someone keeping an eye on my slot, read something that I wrote so that you could come to some type of opinion on my slot...you know the one you're keeping an eye on. You can't keep an eye on a slot and at the same time refuse to read any of their contribution because that is explicitly

not

keeping an eye on my slot. You don't seem very interested in actually finding scum. You seem more interested in just looking busy and saying things. I will always point that out. You don't like it? :shrug: Dont' care.

pappums rat · Post Post #734 (ISO) » Wed May 23, 2012 10:35 pm

↑ Korlash wrote:
Rat wrote:I've said everything there is to say about V2V's town gambit, the motivation to do what he did is obvious and Korlash pushing his shitwagon for shitreasons that are contrived and full of WIFOM should tell you where to put your votes.

This whole 'instead of reading the thread I'll pointlessly slander Korlash as a bad guy doing shit he isn't doing so nobody notices my own lack of useful input' is getting kinda pathetic mate.

I'm going to ask you to tell me what my 'shit reasons' are that I'm 'pushing V2V's wagon' with. Then I'm going to ask you to explain how they are 'contrived' and 'full of WIFOM'. I predict you'll ignore this request like usual and continue to pointlessly shout about shit I'm not actually doing, which would actually serve to undermine the case on me and reduce the chance others would jump on it so please, for your own sake, put a little effort into this game because at this point, whatever your fucking alignment is, you're becoming a detriment to it.

If you're town, stop throwing around this God awful spit and back it up before you hurt the chance to lynch the guy you 'think is scum'. And if you're scum, fucking shape up before you cost your team the mislynch MoI handed you on a platter... God I never expected to have to IC in a fucking mini theme...

Your main shit reason is that you are saying V2V's actions are more likely to come from scum than town without actually backing up this presumption and then using contrived, WIFOMy reasons for it. I will admit that when you look into a person's reasons for doing something WIFOM is likely to come up, but it becomes shit when WIFOM is entirely what the "case" is built on. You are using your percieved reasons for why scumV2V would fakeclaim vig and using only these without anything else scummy that he has done and no other reasons. You initially said you were not pushing his lynch and that you were trying to get answers for why he would fakeclaim vig. Is this still the case or will you now admit that you are pushing his lynch and want him dead? Also LOL @ "the mislynch MoI handed you on a platter" if anyone is the easy mislynch today it is V2V.

Scott what do you think of Korlash?

Tammy · Post Post #735 (ISO) » Thu May 24, 2012 12:16 am

V2V - Can you explain to me what you meant about feeling out of your depth in this game?

Tammy · Post Post #736 (ISO) » Thu May 24, 2012 12:35 am

↑ Korlash wrote:

Tammy wrote:Regardless, I never said "Fate's dead, Korlash must be scum." I said Fate's death doesn't look good for you, which it doesn't for good reason. The kill doesn't look good for Pizza either for that matter, but for lesser reasons than for you.

Looking at the night kill and reviewing who it could look bad or good for is something I almost always do... I sometimes drive people nuts with this as some people think looking at the dead is a waste of time, but I think that people don't pay attention to the night kills enough. Sure, it's not an exact science...just like vote count analysis and interaction analysis when searching for partners, but it can still be helpful. Making mention of the night kill and who it does or does not look good for isn't a scum tell for me...it's a Tammy tell. *shrug*

As the guy who practices VCA and Setup Speculation religiously I can understand you, but it doesn't change my feelings on the matter either. Like I said before, I can see it coming from town in this situation so I'm going to be focusing on the rest of your stuff a lot more than I'm focusing on this.

The whole 'Korlash is scum' vs. 'doesn't look good for you'... perhaps I may have over exaggerated, but not very far. From both the game perspective and the tell perspective I find both statements to be nearly equal. I apologize if you feel I was taking you out of context or misconstruing your words, was not my intention.

I'm not going to continue to argue semantics over it, but they are two very different statements. One is an absolute and one is not. I say exactly what I mean so if I say something doesn't look good for you, it means exactly that, but it's not intended as an absolute you are scum statement.

korlash wrote:

Tammy wrote:Sure scum can kill people for all kinds of reasons. Sometimes they kill to get rid of a power role, which could apply in this case as Fate did claim a power role during the end of the day discussion with Magna... If they killed Fate for unknown PR over V2V then he should think about his scum read on Yates because they obviously didn't feel like he was a threat... But, they would have had to believe he had a power role which I'm not sure that they did or could have. Because I read the thread knowing that, it's hard for me to decide whether it looked like something that was faked in the interaction between him and MoI when MoI was gambitting about the vengeful thing. So, it's a distinct possibility that they killed Fate because of the possible PR, but with V2V being alive I'm not putting a whole lot of faith in it.

No, Fate tried to play it off as stupid as he could but you combine his claim with the implications it would throw on me and it's fairly certain why the scum choose to kill him. (You even had V2V drawing the doc protect regardless of his alignment so no fear of that on Fate) Those three reasons alone would be enough, but combine that with getting rid of Fate (annoying as hell AND sure to give Benmage a hard time) and his being killed seems fairly obvious.

Yes... You can think about who might have wanted him dead, but there is to much 'proper play' involved with his death. The scum could be everyone Fate called town, they still 'should and would' have killed him given everything I've listed. I'm all for looking at the dead, I sure as hell do it... But you have to remember to look at this type of stuff first. Too much 'proper play' involved, and who might have killed him... sadly... becomes rather moot.

You're once again presuming me to have knowledge I don't have. I've never played with Fate before; I have no idea what the impetus to get rid of Fate just because he's Fate would be. All I know is what I could see in the thread.

So, you're essentially saying that scum killed Fate to set you up? Never mind the fact that you've claimed that Fate was the kill that would be made regardless? Either by the playerlist Fate was the only kill to make or he wasn't, but why not anyone else? Why not you?

Korlash wrote:
You seem to have a different opinion of Ben on this situation then I do... Fair enough. One of us has to be right I suppose. But I think the fact that Fate KILLED Ben (Yes Yates, I'll argue this with you all day if I have to...) proves he was a threat to Ben. But like I've been saying, you can't really stick to this line of thinking right now given other factors.

All I know is what is provided on the thread, and from reading the thread I don't know how Ben could feel threatened by Fate. Yes, the fact that Fate vigged Ben proves he was a threat, but on thread...there's no indication he was a threat to Ben. His biggest suspects throughout the day were you and Pizzadudes...that's what I have to go off of.

korlash wrote:

Tammy wrote:Town doesn't have to or should explain the wifom behind anything. They don't have to give reasons that are obvious. I often don't when I want to see people's reactions or enter into a conversation with someone. If it's part of a case, sure, then you do that. I gave my impression of what I had read going through the thread for the first time and what I thought about Fate's death. I'm not going to explain it all and have people jump on it and say "that sounds good". If someone agrees with me and votes you for it, then they get to explain why without having all my thoughts to back it up, and if they disagree they get to say why, and then I get to make a determination of them and their motives. I'm not going to do the work for everyone especially when I'm trying to evaluate people and don't have any really solid reads.

I... understand all this... But again, put to practice... doesn't always work. Not saying stuff can make others do their own work... sure... but then again, not saying stuff... means
you aren't saying stuff
... I mean, there has to be a balance I think if you choose to play this way. You still need to accurately explain your own stuff regardless of how much info that might give to others who would otherwise not work themselves.

The whole idea of putting forth the vote, and then following it up with the case throughout the next couple of posts(only way I see this style of yours ultimately playing out), also wouldn't work. That just wastes time and ends up accomplishing the same thing if you just posted the whole case during the vote. The earlier you give your justifications, reasons, and explanations, the earlier you get a response, and the more you squeeze into a single day. Neglecting to mention something for fear others would use it as their own work... Just isn't how this game should be played.

In fact, it denies you a scum hunting opportunity. If you fail to post your entire case, then the scum cannot say "I agree with it, vote: whoever" and you can't go "Ah ha! Parroting without your own content, /iso you scumbag"... See what I'm getting at?

I'm not one to crap over someone's play style, but yours just seems to be against how the town needs discussion to work... which isn't all that great... Just my two cents...

*Ignore all of this if you meant this as a situational thing (i.e. this is how I did it this one time) vs. a standard way of playing/replacing in. I can understand a one time deal thingy as long as you don't make it a norm...

Eh...the only thing about my playstyle that is static is that I tend to ask a lot of questions to get conversations going to evaluate people. There are probably a couple other things as well, but that's probably the most consistent. Anything else is situational and how I see fit. And considering that I usually generate a lot of conversation in games, I'm really not worried about my play style being one that doesn't generate enough...or holds back. So, if I choose not to share my thoughts, I have a reason for doing so. Eh.

vijay2vasandani · Post Post #737 (ISO) » Thu May 24, 2012 1:47 am

↑ Tammy wrote:V2V - Can you explain to me what you meant about feeling out of your depth in this game?

Korlash, MoI, Fate and Benmage are all good players. And they post shitloads. And I don't remember if it was this game, but a lot of meta (affc or something) that I knew nothing about and could not be bothered reading

Yates · Post Post #738 (ISO) » Thu May 24, 2012 2:59 am

To this point:

↑ Tammy wrote:I'm not going to continue to argue semantics over it, but they are two very different statements.

This is something he has been doing the whole game. And, as I mentioned in post 703 Chapter 2, point 1, this is certainly one of the things bugging me about his play. I won't hold my breath for him to stop arguing semantics, though...

Spoiler:

So the question I'm struggling with is this; while starting semantic arguments is certainly scummy, is this a reliable enough scum tell to garner a vote?

Where my crush on Tammy deepens:

First - post 733 made me laugh. Scott got owned in a major way.

Next -

↑ Tammy wrote:All I know is what is provided on the thread, and from reading the thread I don't know how Ben could feel threatened by Fate. Yes, the fact that Fate vigged Ben proves he was a threat, but on thread...there's no indication he was a threat to Ben. His biggest suspects throughout the day were you and Pizzadudes...that's what I have to go off of.

I feel like this is EXACTLY what I was trying to verbalize in post 661...

Spoiler:

jasonT1981 · Post Post #739 (ISO) » Thu May 24, 2012 3:02 am

Day 2 VC 2

Korlash 3 - pappums rat, The Mini-Librarian,Tammy
vijay2vansandani 3 - Korlash,drmyshotgun, Yates
Yates 1 - vijay2vansandani,
Pizza 1 - Scott Brosius,

Not voting

PeregrineV
Pizzadudes7

With 10 alive it takes 6 to lynch

(expired on 2012-06-08 15:16:47)

till Day 2 Deadline

Pizza has asked to be replaced. Search begins

The Mini-Librarian · Post Post #740 (ISO) » Thu May 24, 2012 3:05 am

@Vijay: I'd love it if you did that. You see the problem for me right now is that I don't have a read on you at all. A good chunk of the reason for that is that you've been tunneling on Yates for so long without a single other read.

vijay2vasandani · Post Post #741 (ISO) » Thu May 24, 2012 3:28 am

Well I'll do it in the morning. I need to go to bed.

@ Yates: well you haven't exactly expressed that POV have you? You're pushing it like it's sensible logic, when as a matter of fact you just admitted it's more likely to come from somebody out of his depth. In other words since you havent exactly mentioned struggling to keep up or being out of your depth, but admitting the slip you "saw" was because you were out of your depth makes me believe it's very likely to be fabricated. Do I make sense?

Yates · Post Post #742 (ISO) » Thu May 24, 2012 3:44 am

↑ vijay2vasandani wrote:@ Yates: well you haven't exactly expressed that POV have you?

I have not only expressed that POV, I expressed that POV on more than one occasion and BEFORE you voted for me. So now you are just flailing.

Spoiler:

PeregrineV · Post Post #743 (ISO) » Thu May 24, 2012 7:34 am

Just looked through Ben's posts. He mostly tunnels on MoI and converses with Korlash.

I got more townreads (right or wrong) this game then I do scum reads. So, I'll just not lynch those.

PeregrineV · Post Post #744 (ISO) » Thu May 24, 2012 7:43 am

Not a town read, and rode the pizza wagon the first time MoI was run up, but jumped over the next time.

Vote: drmyshotgun

Korlash · Post Post #745 (ISO) » Thu May 24, 2012 8:23 am

V2V wrote:Korlash, am I scum or not?

I haven't come to a decision.

Given the way the game has worked thus far, I would venture to bet both you and pizza are town, but that is without the analysis I need to do so I'm not running with it just yet.

Rat wrote:Your main shit reason is that you are saying V2V's actions are more likely to come from scum than town without actually backing up this presumption and then using contrived, WIFOMy reasons for it. I will admit that when you look into a person's reasons for doing something WIFOM is likely to come up, but it becomes shit when WIFOM is entirely what the "case" is built on. You are using your percieved reasons for why scumV2V would fakeclaim vig and using only these without anything else scummy that he has done and no other reasons. You initially said you were not pushing his lynch and that you were trying to get answers for why he would fakeclaim vig. Is this still the case or will you now admit that you are pushing his lynch and want him dead? Also LOL @ "the mislynch MoI handed you on a platter" if anyone is the easy mislynch today it is V2V.

You've just blown your whole arguement. You cannot argue I am both "Saying his arguments are more likely to come from scum without backing them up" AND say I'm "Using contrived WIFOMy reasons for it". If I'm using reasons, regardless of how contrived, I'm backing up my accusation. if I'm not backing up my accusation, then I cannot be using any reasons at all, regardless of how WIFOMy they are.

Pick an attack you want to use and run with it. Stop trying to accuse me of anything you can think of because it all comes out as stupidly pointless.

To counter your argument, you are using the same contrived WIFOMy reasons to call him town. The only real evidence there is is that he lied and outright fakeclaimed, which more than justifies a 'wagon' on him while we get answers. Your shit lashing out at it is not of a sound town mind. Either you're town with a vendetta against me and just 'assume' V2V is town because I've attaacked him, which is stupid for you to do regardless of your feelings on him since an admitted lie SHOULD be delved into as hard as possible. OR, you're scum who knows V2V is town. I won't venture to guess which is more likely until I do my analysis.

To answer your question, Aye, it is still the case. Although it shouldn't be for long since I have enough... i just have to get around to compiling the information. >.>

Yates wrote:So the question I'm struggling with is this; while starting semantic arguments is certainly scummy, is this a reliable enough scum tell to garner a vote?

I'm a very careful player, I argue semantics because they usually mean something to me. I hardly ever USE semantics to call someone scum though, so while you may dislike me doing it I don't usually try to use those arguments as evidence/reasons/etc. (although it does happen occasionally)

Sadly, I think you mean to ssay you dislike me using them as defense, which as I say, semantics mean something to me so we'd be at a crosroads.

Scott Brosius · Post Post #746 (ISO) » Thu May 24, 2012 8:29 am

After one potential block, the air of suspicion is cast. Three days is absurd to let a claimed unproven PR to live.

Again, you are acting like he actually claimed. v2v said something like im gonna shoot you tonight. Why would anyone take that seriously? If his claim was so convincing that it warranted protection, why did the ACTUAL VIG kill him? That's how weak that feeble attempt at a claim was.

I repeat, it's a dumb move, but it really reeks of town, not master manipulator scum.

↑ The Mini-Librarian wrote:

@Scott B: Is your vote on Pizza just for being a useless lurker or for actual reasons? If it's for the first reason I'm going to have to ask you to vote for someone else. Hopefully we can get a replacement for that slot.

It's a strategy I like to use on lurkers to see if they come running back to the thread after being voted, proving that they are keeping up with the game and not just flaking. Obviously he did not return.

↑ PeregrineV wrote:Not a town read, and rode the pizza wagon the first time MoI was run up, but jumped over the next time.

Vote: drmyshotgun

I like this, add that he's weakly pushing the v2v wagon while offering absolutely nothing on anyone else.

Unvote
Vote: drmyshotgun

Korlash · Post Post #747 (ISO) » Thu May 24, 2012 8:42 am

Tammy wrote:You're once again presuming me to have knowledge I don't have. I've never played with Fate before; I have no idea what the impetus to get rid of Fate just because he's Fate would be. All I know is what I could see in the thread.

I didn't presume anything, if anything I simply TOLD you something I knew in order to inform you of it (which would imply I presumed you DIDN'T know it)

and regardless of all of this, I had three stated IN GAME reasons Fate would have been killed. Nothing presumed about that at all.

Tammy wrote:So, you're essentially saying that scum killed Fate to set you up? Never mind the fact that you've claimed that Fate was the kill that would be made regardless? Either by the playerlist Fate was the only kill to make or he wasn't, but why not anyone else? Why not you?

I said that could be and is likely a part of it, yes. It's an all encompassing package (Claimed PR, Set-up Koralash, low probability of Doc protect, and as V2V pointed out, Fate was one of the four top names in this game, so you can even add in silencing one of them to it.) I'm not trying to say any ONE reason lead to his death, but that overall his death was the obvious choice.

Why would scum kill me? MoI flipped town, if nothing else the events of yesterday would lead to suspicions on me. I'm a naturally suspicious person as it stands since I have a tendency to dominate discussion which puts people off, so if nothing else attention would be focused on me today so killing me frees the town up to hunt the scum, which they wouldn't want. Plus I didn't claim to have a PR while two others did, so killing me would mean missing a chance to take out a town PR.

I wouldn't venture to speculate on why others weren't killed. I can only say Fate was obviously the best choice, from my own perspective. Maybe the scum think differently, I don't know.

tammy wrote:All I know is what is provided on the thread, and from reading the thread I don't know how Ben could feel threatened by Fate. Yes, the fact that Fate vigged Ben proves he was a threat, but on thread...there's no indication he was a threat to Ben. His biggest suspects throughout the day were you and Pizzadudes...that's what I have to go off of.

Right, my memory of the end of day might be skewed. I could potentially be getting memories of MoI confused with Fate, they both blended into one big pile of fail so I wouldn't put it past me to have made that mistake.

All I can say is Ben knew Fate just as well, if not better, than I did.

tammy wrote:...So, if I choose not to share my thoughts, I have a reason for doing so. Eh.

If you think it's best for your win-con, you do what you need to. But, remember that as town the presence of information is almost always better than the lack of it.

Korlash · Post Post #748 (ISO) » Thu May 24, 2012 8:47 am

Scott wrote:Again, you are acting like he actually claimed. v2v said something like im gonna shoot you tonight. Why would anyone take that seriously? If his claim was so convincing that it warranted protection, why did the ACTUAL VIG kill him? That's how weak that feeble attempt at a claim was.

... The vig didn't kill him... did you mean to say "Why didn't the actual vig kill him"? Because that's dumb. The town can lynch the fakeclaim, that would waste a vig shot. Fate is smart enough (and self-centered enough) to know this and kill another scum read to potentially catch two scum instead of one. That would be like viging a cop guilty, stupid... you lynch those, you vig the 'suspects'.

Why would anybody take a softclaim seriously? Wow... I never thought anything could make me cry more than your 'doctors don't protect powerroles' thing earlier... ;_; I blame the education system in our county...

jasonT1981 · Post Post #749 (ISO) » Thu May 24, 2012 10:54 am

splitfarvle replaces Pizza, thank you.