NY 164: Maniacal Street Mafia (Anticlimatically finished.)

Nero Cain · Post Post #4450 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:30 am

So....Nero is scum for wanting to leash Thad and now both you and Bulb want to sheep my leash plan?!?

Nachomamma8 · Post Post #4451 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:14 am

In post 4263, ArcAngel9 wrote:you know that i would not call somene town unless my gut hardly says.. Nero is town. and If feel you're town. So, Now stop pissing each other..

Unvote, Vote: Seanald

In post 4263, ArcAngel9 wrote:And also i want to know what your thoughts on Cephier.

Cephrir's probably town.

In post 4312, ffullisade wrote:let's look at cephrir. does anybody seriously believe that cephrir has no idea what to do with thad's "trolling". omg, no. I mean that is what cephrir is saying, "I have no idea what to do about thad's trolling cos I have just never encountered it before!". oh plz.

I've learned that trolling can apparently throw people off in extremely weird ways.

In post 4354, ffullisade wrote:bacde, you freak me out because dragonballz.

- f

this essentially is dragonballz
and sooner or later everything will just click and a bunch of scum will die and everything will be okay.

In post 4393, ffullisade wrote:
In post 4391, Amethyst Kitty wrote:Fery makes me sad on so many levels. Like SUPER SAD. ~~~Actually I said this to Mara after the Donner Party game ended. There was something similar that was said here to something said there. Bulb had a total different reaction to it here which made me lean town on him mainly because he was SK in DP.
I don't get it.

- f

they're town.

In post 4396, CrashTextDummie wrote:The only argument I've seen in Nero's defense is that his play here reminds people of other town games of his. I find this to be a very unreliable use of meta, because it assumes that Nero-scum is incapable of emulating his town play.

I trust mollie's (and AA's, believe it or not) instincts when dealing with Nero. Sometimes he plays great, sometimes he plays incredibly scummily, self-destructs, etc.

In post 4411, Desperado wrote:My problem with your Nero case lately is that we still don't even know it's multiball. If it isn't, your entire case goes up in flames. I think my Seanald case is stronger than your Nero case, straight up.

two kills per night --> claimed vig who hasn't shot --> "blue" scum all sort of equals multiball
if ThAd gets counterclaimed by bullets and flips blue scum, then maybe it's not multiball but that's looking HIGHLY unlikely at this point.

Nachomamma8 · Post Post #4452 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:19 am

I'm mostly trusting others's instincts on Nero; mollie's usually better at flushing out people who melt the fuck down in the way that Nero's done. He also hasn't really been opportunistic when going down, and while I seriously don't understand the shit around multiball claims and still have a lot of things that bother me about him, I'm willing to give him some semblance of a chance. I do want to explore PV, though because his play here is looking suspiciously empty as shit.

Desperado · Post Post #4453 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:35 am

In post 4413, CrashTextDummie wrote:Desperado, you are spooking me a great fucking deal. It's like we've entered bizzarro land.

You vote Nero Cain, and all it takes for you to move on is him showing up to defend himself ("stop flailing like a wuss", as you so nicely put it). It's enough for you to move him into the "likely won't lynch" pile even. I'm beginning to question why you voted him in the first place, he certainly hasn't defended well against the most pressing issues at hand. And now you've started defending him with arguments that are just astonishingly bad to me:

1. This is a normal game. Giving the scum team a color distinction when there's not actually a second scum team to match it is tantamount to bastard moddery. It's at the very least mod trickery, which is already against the spirit of normal games, and I'd be severely pissed off with Mastin and whomever greenlit the game if that was the case. In addition, we have had two kills a night and a third killing party claimed in ThAd. There is every reason to assume this is a multiball game at this point.
2. Even if it wasn't a multiball game, it doesn't have
any
bearing on Nero Cain's scumminess. He said something that directly contradicts his claimed game theory stance, to defend a player of questionable alignment (AK, who you read as scum). He claimed having this game theory stance to defend a
very
questionable line of reasoning he used to help lynch OS-town. There is
not a single thing
about this whole story that adds up to Nero being town and it doesn't make a lick of difference whether he knew this was multiball, thought this was multiball or knew the opposite.

Not only did you do an almost complete U-turn on Nero, you also apparently threw the big issue you had with the Seanald wagon out the window.
The vast majority of your strong town reads still don't support a Seanald lynch,
while the vast majority of your other scum reads does or did at the height of the wagon. I reread your case against him, and it's still not as strong as you make it out to be. The totality of your valid points doesn't even come close to matching the one huge point against Nero in scumminess, and there are other strong points in favor of Nero scum in addition to that.

Seriously, get a grip.

I'm spooking you because we don't agree on one person?

I helped you and nacho push the nero wagon because the case was good and I was still trying to work him out, which I said here:

In post 4052, Desperado wrote: Hd and slandaar lean town, penguin leans scum, and I'm still working Nero out. Just finished a game with town Nero that was going concurrently so I will probably lean on that.

Then he started interacting with me and the rest of his wagon and towntold, so I unvoted him and went back to my Seanald case, which you still have not addressed (other than the final line of this post, which is unnecessarily vague).

@ bolded: this is just inaccurate. Fery said the case "was good on the face" but Seanald "might get mislynched a lot" so she'll have to do research; Nacho didn't address it at all until just now; Khan hasn't addressed the case either, only that he had reservations about the composition of the wagon, but he also scumread Seanald earlier in the game; and Arc is still on the wagon with me.

If it's not as strong as I'm making it out to be, tell me where it's weak, don't tell me to "get a grip."

Nachomamma8 · Post Post #4454 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:50 am

I mean, let's go through a magical adventure through Peregrine's ISO and see what he's done so far this game.

In post 2245, PeregrineV wrote:
In post 2237, Nachomamma8 wrote:
In post 2234, PeregrineV wrote:I will when I get to that part, but I think you would have a vested interest in understanding your wagon.
I'm actually pretty interested in hearing how you interpret my wagon. I've talked about my wagon enough in previous posts that it's sort of a waste to do it again, but I'm interested in what conclusions you reach about it.
How I interpret it is less important than how you do. If you are lynched and town, we have honest info. If you are not town, we have info.

It also let's me achieve dual interest in the thread, both back and front.

Now this is cool and for a good reason and all but you know what type of dual interest Peregrine had? None at all. He had no followup, no comment, no nothing on what I had to post, no actual catch up post made, nothing.

In post 3365, PeregrineV wrote:New day- new fun. Night reads made me want to look for Eddie+bluescum connections, but I guess not.

If I were to do some selected readings, anyone have recommendations?

oh cool more useless crap
take a wild guess and see if he's done any of the selected reading
(answer is HELL NO)

In post 3383, PeregrineV wrote:As for bussing, I'd listen to arguements that bluescum went straight to bussing, and arguements that bluescum tried other wagons first, and arguments that bluescum avoided bussing.

Excerpt from Peregrine's Votecount History Saga. This is the closest thing that ended up being a conclusion in any sense, and his conclusion was "maybe bluescum bussed, didn't bus, or waited to bus".

In post 3869, PeregrineV wrote:
Vote: Nacho

Why are you totally ignoring my request?

There's his first original vote of the game, which is voting me for ignoring a request (even though I didn't).

In post 4101, PeregrineV wrote:Alternately, if your reading indicates Seanald is town, then you should mention that.
Or, if you find an independent reason why Seanald is scummy, then you could mention that and vote him.
Or, if you find holes or weaknesses in Desparado's case you can point those out.

Oh, you're town catching up and looking at Desperado's case? If you find an independent reason why Seanald is town or scum, you can tell us! If you find something wrong with the case, let us know!

AKA this is actually the most useless post in this game and is the picture of active lurking

In post 4286, PeregrineV wrote:My thoughts from the vote history:

Red Ryu was either killed because Red Mafia was looking to kill Blue Mafia, or Red Mafia wanted to get rid of a strong townie.

The fact that his wagon got to 6(?) votes at one point means he couldn't have been too townie, so he was probably killed while being scumhunted by Red Mafia.

Since I think that rather than waste thier kill on the Blue mafia team if they can help it, Red Mafia would first try, in some way shape or form, to lynch Blue mafia if they can.

More useless shit based on a false dichotomy.

The ONLY thing that he's done at all is defend ThAd, who happens to be a person with a SHOT that I'm sure Peregrine would love to direct for the sake of his team. He talks about his notes a lot, he talks about the need to read a lot, but I've seen absolutely nothing from his actual readthrough, and I've seen pretty much nothing except for lazy VCA and nightkill speculation done completely, horribly wrong. Last time PV was scum in a game with me, he got caught out for active lurking like a motherfucker. And now he's starting to repeat old patterns, and I'm left feeling like I just figured out PV-scum to a T.

Nachomamma8 · Post Post #4455 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:51 am

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

ffery, I read this game and I don't think Seanald is scum here.
Do you agree or am I reading too much into his approach?

Human Destroyer · Post Post #4456 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:55 am

In post 4455, Nachomamma8 wrote:http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

ffery, I read this game and I don't think Seanald is scum here.
Do you agree or am I reading too much into his approach?

...then why are you voting him?

Human Destroyer · Post Post #4457 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:56 am

also

V/LA is most likely through Sunday, not Saturday.

<<< Gotcha. >>>

Nachomamma8 · Post Post #4458 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:59 am

Vote: PeregrineV

And for my last act, I'm going to make mastin proud.

GOD DAMNIT HD YOU FUCKING RUINED EVERYTHING

Human Destroyer · Post Post #4459 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:00 am

In post 4458, Nachomamma8 wrote:GOD DAMNIT HD YOU FUCKING RUINED EVERYTHING

Then I succeeded.

Nero Cain · Post Post #4460 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:01 am

I've melted down? The fuck?

penguin_alien · Post Post #4461 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:05 am

In post 4455, Nachomamma8 wrote:http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

ffery, I read this game and I don't think Seanald is scum here.
Do you agree or am I reading too much into his approach?

A quick scan through his ISO there shows a lot of feigned confusion, which lines up with his reaction here to his neighbor buddy pushing on him. What are you seeing as different here?

Nero (and AK, once I steeled myself to read that wall) have some decent points, although I'm not sure how much Nero using humor is a bonafide town tell. With Seanald popping in and out, let's see if he's motivated to address the case on him with more votes.

VOTE: Seanald

ffullisade · Post Post #4462 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:09 am

In post 4455, Nachomamma8 wrote:http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... er_sort=Go

ffery, I read this game and I don't think Seanald is scum here.
Do you agree or am I reading too much into his approach?

The vengeball game is the only game that I've played with Seanald so I don't have a town baseline. His posts in this game are different though. Not as defeatest. More aggressive. More opinionated.

By nature, it seems that vengeball is intense and posture-y in some of the same ways as popcorn mafia, which leaves scum players with a limited and dangerous repertoire (from my perspective as someone who is terrible with scum roles). I am not sure how good a vengeball-informed scum baseline will be in pointing up scum behaviors in other games.

Do you think vengeball scum play generalizes to other games?

I'm not comfortable voting him today.

ffullisade · Post Post #4463 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:15 am

In post 4451, Nachomamma8 wrote:they're town.

I figured that out, but I can't remember if Mollie and I are in agreement. I think so.

I wasn't sure what the stuff about the Donner Party game was about because Mala was scum in that game. Maybe it's an unrelated thought.

ISO · Post Post #4464 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:19 am

It's hard for me to disregard CTD's rather solid case for a little meta done by someone else. With a few of my townreads moving off that wagon I don't feel as obligated to sheep anymore, but I've become more convinced in the meantime. That said, I'll hop over and support the lynch I think has a better chance of going through today.

Unvote, Vote: Seanald

PV is hardly a shining beacon of towniness but I don't think he's the right lynch today. First of all, if he was scum neighbored to a claimed vig, do we think he would leave that vig alive? Maybe, if said vig's suspicions were incorrect. Second, outguessing the mod a bit, do we think a vig would be neighbored to scum? Okay, again, maybe. But I think what I'm trying to say here is that I want to find out whether ThAd is a vig first and I also think the relationship between the two of them, if PV is in fact scum, could prove to be a wealth of information and I'm in favor of continuing to let that information flow.

Desperado · Post Post #4465 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:28 am

In post 4462, ffullisade wrote:I'm not comfortable voting him today.

Who is this and why not?

Desperado · Post Post #4466 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:29 am

Based on capitalization I'm guessing fery...did you research Seanald like you said it would? Because your post gives the opposite impression.

ffullisade · Post Post #4467 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:47 am

In post 4466, Desperado wrote:Based on capitalization I'm guessing fery...did you research Seanald like you said it would? Because your post gives the opposite impression.

Yeah it's me. I'm not all that careful about capitalization, but you'll never ever see "cos" or "<--------- blah blah" in one of my posts.

Besides this one, I guess.

I did read Seanald's ISO in this game and in another town game last week and compared that with the vengeball game that we recently completed. The meta, especially the experiential meta is why I'm not comfortable with his lynch. I don't know if that kind of analysis is of interest to you, but I'll be glad to bore...uh...elaborate if you want.

I'm thinking about PeregrineV. I've only played one game with him - my second game at MS. I found him to be a fairly easy town read in that game. He hasn't been obvtown in this game, but it's larger and there are a lot more moving parts.

Nachomamma8 · Post Post #4468 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:00 am

Spoiler: Master Votecount History List

Bacde · Post Post #4469 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:03 am

Hey guys, I'm feeling lost and I was gone all weekend so I'll figure this out soon

Nachomamma8 · Post Post #4470 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:11 am

In post 4460, Nero Cain wrote:I've melted down? The fuck?

yeah when you start going all "they're gonna lynch me

" it's a meltdown in my book.
sry

In post 4461, penguin_alien wrote:A quick scan through his ISO there shows a lot of feigned confusion, which lines up with his reaction here to his neighbor buddy pushing on him. What are you seeing as different here?

In that other game, Seanald was essentially a parasite who hooked onto strong town players and followed the fuck out of them. He did not give a SHIT in determining people's alignment, and that was evident. Here, he waits for me to respond before sheeping Bacde, he's clear that he hasn't read the game and yet somehow manages to give more original opinions in the game where he didn't mention that fact. Here, he asks CTD about his opinion on Bacde who he was planning to sheep, waits on it a bit, trusts Bacde. If he was scum in this game, he would be playing a hundred times the game he played there BUT he talks in that postgame chat like he ended up investing more time there than here.

In post 4464, Cephrir wrote:First of all, if he was scum neighbored to a claimed vig, do we think he would leave that vig alive? Maybe, if said vig's suspicions were incorrect.

ActionDan read his predecessor as town as fuck and then flaked. If I was scum and I ended up in a QT with a vig who was calling me town and thinking about shooting people who weren't on my team then hell yeah I would leave him alive.

In post 4464, Cephrir wrote:Second, outguessing the mod a bit, do we think a vig would be neighbored to scum? Okay, again, maybe.

Again, hell yes. It rewards both vig and scum for doing their job well. If vig roots out scum, then he can shoot him silently during the night, maybe even get a power role claim beforehand. If vig successfully finds town, mason buddy. If scum can manipulate the vig, he can use his shots as pretty much a second nightkill or root out a power role early as fuck.

In post 4464, Cephrir wrote:But I think what I'm trying to say here is that I want to find out whether ThAd is a vig first

I don't think that's necessary.

ISO · Post Post #4471 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:25 am

You didn't address the part of my post that actually got to the point

Desperado · Post Post #4472 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:27 am

In post 4460, Nero Cain wrote:I've melted down? The fuck?

In post 4199, Nero Cain wrote:.........................................................................................

WORST TOWN EVER!!!!

I'm being voted for a bunch of fucking nothingness. Jesus Christ.

In post 4203, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 4175, AngryPidgeon wrote:Nero Cain - 5 (Nachomamma8, CrashTextDummie,
Desperado, Bacde, Ffullisade
)
at least one of these are scum.

When I flip town you guys should lynch the shit out the middle of my wagon.

Nachomamma8 · Post Post #4473 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:27 am

I didn't address it because I don't leave people alive for information ever. I just get all the information I need and kill them in prompt time as opposed to letting them hang on their tiny scummy threads for like three game days and then finally dying when town gets their shit together.

Nero Cain · Post Post #4474 (ISO) » Mon Jul 01, 2013 6:40 am

In post 4472, Desperado wrote:
In post 4460, Nero Cain wrote:I've melted down? The fuck?

In post 4199, Nero Cain wrote:.........................................................................................

WORST TOWN EVER!!!!

I'm being voted for a bunch of fucking nothingness. Jesus Christ.

In post 4203, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 4175, AngryPidgeon wrote:Nero Cain - 5 (Nachomamma8, CrashTextDummie,
Desperado, Bacde, Ffullisade
)
at least one of these are scum.

When I flip town you guys should lynch the shit out the middle of my wagon.

Shut up Despo. But I really do think there is a scummer in that quick burst on my wagon. You can add in Cephir as well and maybe AK is onto Khan. You really think all those sheeps on my wagon are town? Get the puck outta here.