Mini 1492: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets GAME OVER

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

F16: you really don't see any possible scum motivation in backing off of ffery when it becomes clear she won't be lynched, on focusing on her alone and ignoring the rest of the thread.

Toomai: when Stubbs flipped scum, what did you think?

I can certainly see the scum motivation to back off of ffery when she won't be lynched. And yet:

- MSG describes ffery as "activist" - I am not even sure what that word means but I guessed that it was a synonym for aggressive.
- He backs off when she posts a case on Penguin.

I can also see the town motivation in backing off when she plays according to what he believes she plays like as town.

To discern which is more likely, look at the timing for the backoff. It didn't come at a point when people disagreed with his read, it came at a time when she played in a way he believed she would play if she was town.

He never backed off when CDB shut him down D1. He only backed off after the Penguin case.

[Amrun]

Ffery: who is scum?


Falcon: I understand your point. It's a good one, actually. I'll keep it in mind when I re-read.

[fferyllt]

I also don't use differing reads as a scumtell for players unless I know them pretty well; a strong attack on me from this point by someone like Rach would be far different than if ffery were to attack me.

How so?

[Toomai]

Toomai: when Stubbs flipped scum, what did you think?

Probably something like "Okay, so JW has to be legit, and maybe Stubbs claimed town-JOAT to match his scum-JOAT because he suspected a detector".

Finished reread.

• Nachomamma8: unchanged, still null
  
• penguin_alien: weak nullscum → weak nulltown
  
• fferyllt: weak nulltown → weak town
  
• JasonWazza: unchanged, still town
  
• Amrun: weak nulltown → townish
  
• MSG: weak nulltown → weak nullscum
  
• FFF: unchanged, still town
  
• RM: unchanged, still weak nulltown

So yeah not really the best use of my time. That said, MSG is the most interesting bit here; I was starting to suspect that slot as a Stubbs partner, but recent posts by various people have been chipping away at that.

[fferyllt]

I've read through Toomai's 3 completed non-newbie games.

In Mini 1449 he's more of an interrogator. He asks questions as well as making observations and I think does go after people he suspects pretty strongly. I'm also seeing evidence of his analysis tools in the game. It shows up in his reads list and then later in vote tables.

Comparing that game to this one was actually alarming, because in this game, the only post that smacks of interrogation was his question to jasonwazza early day 1 here, which came after his case and vote.

His next game, Mini 1464 is similar to 1449 in terms of interrogation, and overall in terms of lots of interaction with other players.

And, in Mini 1491, he questions a fair bit in this game too. But the questions aren't as forceful and interrogatory, though from almost the start in this game he was under fire.

The other thing that stands out so far in this game versus the other three, though the difference isn't huge and striking, is the relative infrequency of votes. In the earlier games, it's clear he uses his vote as a scumhunting tool. In this game, especially after day 1, he's not using his vote to nearly the same degree or effect.

In all these games, there's evidence of his analysis tools.

[fferyllt]

Toomai: when Stubbs flipped scum, what did you think?

Probably something like "Okay, so JW has to be legit, and maybe Stubbs claimed town-JOAT to match his scum-JOAT because he suspected a detector".

Finished reread.

• Nachomamma8: unchanged, still null
  
• penguin_alien: weak nullscum → weak nulltown
  
• fferyllt: weak nulltown → weak town
  
• JasonWazza: unchanged, still town
  
• Amrun: weak nulltown → townish
  
• MSG: weak nulltown → weak nullscum
  
• FFF: unchanged, still town
  
• RM: unchanged, still weak nulltown

So yeah not really the best use of my time. That said, MSG is the most interesting bit here; I was starting to suspect that slot as a Stubbs partner, but recent posts by various people have been chipping away at that.

Talk me through why some of these reads changed?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I've read through Toomai's 3 completed non-newbie games.

In Mini 1449 he's more of an interrogator. He asks questions as well as making observations and I think does go after people he suspects pretty strongly. I'm also seeing evidence of his analysis tools in the game. It shows up in his reads list and then later in vote tables.

Comparing that game to this one was actually alarming, because in this game, the only post that smacks of interrogation was his question to jasonwazza early day 1 here, which came after his case and vote.

His next game, Mini 1464 is similar to 1449 in terms of interrogation, and overall in terms of lots of interaction with other players.

And, in Mini 1491, he questions a fair bit in this game too. But the questions aren't as forceful and interrogatory, though from almost the start in this game he was under fire.

The other thing that stands out so far in this game versus the other three, though the difference isn't huge and striking, is the relative infrequency of votes. In the earlier games, it's clear he uses his vote as a scumhunting tool. In this game, especially after day 1, he's not using his vote to nearly the same degree or effect.

In all these games, there's evidence of his analysis tools.

This post has a lot of good points. I'll reread those games again with these in mind and re-evaluate. Did you read the entire games or just his ISO?

[fferyllt]

I've read through Toomai's 3 completed non-newbie games.

In Mini 1449 he's more of an interrogator. He asks questions as well as making observations and I think does go after people he suspects pretty strongly. I'm also seeing evidence of his analysis tools in the game. It shows up in his reads list and then later in vote tables.

Comparing that game to this one was actually alarming, because in this game, the only post that smacks of interrogation was his question to jasonwazza early day 1 here, which came after his case and vote.

His next game, Mini 1464 is similar to 1449 in terms of interrogation, and overall in terms of lots of interaction with other players.

And, in Mini 1491, he questions a fair bit in this game too. But the questions aren't as forceful and interrogatory, though from almost the start in this game he was under fire.

The other thing that stands out so far in this game versus the other three, though the difference isn't huge and striking, is the relative infrequency of votes. In the earlier games, it's clear he uses his vote as a scumhunting tool. In this game, especially after day 1, he's not using his vote to nearly the same degree or effect.

In all these games, there's evidence of his analysis tools.

This post has a lot of good points. I'll reread those games again with these in mind and re-evaluate. Did you read the entire games or just his ISO?

Somewhere in between. I flipped between ISO and contextual.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I've read through Toomai's 3 completed non-newbie games.

In Mini 1449 he's more of an interrogator. He asks questions as well as making observations and I think does go after people he suspects pretty strongly. I'm also seeing evidence of his analysis tools in the game. It shows up in his reads list and then later in vote tables.

Comparing that game to this one was actually alarming, because in this game, the only post that smacks of interrogation was his question to jasonwazza early day 1 here, which came after his case and vote.

Okay, just went through this game and checked his ISO. My comments are in the spoiler.

Spoiler:

Mini 1449
32, has misgivings about how fast a wagon built up but lets it be anyways
87, reads Cherry Pie and Hapahauli as town since he wasn’t seeing poor logic on either side, votes NicCage for making 3 bad posts.
105, defends himself, asks for an explanation.
108, votes GCBC in response to hapahauli asking him why he dropped suspicion. Elaborates on his reasoning for his vote. Said that a sequence of posts contained dubious logic etc, and then provides questions for target to answer.
136, defends himself from a case, unvotes, says he doesn’t know how to create discussion.
164, points out 3 posts he doesn’t like, asks questions regarding why the player has no nullreads.
217, goes on VLA, comes back with a list of reads. He rarely actually explains WHY someone is scummy or not, only that they are. His best method of rooting out scum seems to be bad logic.
219, responds to an OMGUS accusation.
229, explains one read well, very reserved on explaining the others and doesn’t really expand much. Logic is again the primary, almost only differentiator.
Hapahauli’s 233 is interesting. He points out that Toomai has a lack of initiative and barely asks any questions, and even the ones that do, he doesn’t follow up on them or even factor them into his reads.
296, responds to an accusation. Says he is okay with Varsoon or NicCage being lynched for low signal to noise ratio.
363 is good. Gives a minor case on why he thinks a player is scum. Explains it all.
409, hypothesizes about a role claim.
515, weakly pushes a suspect saying that with an extended deadline, maybe they can get a wagon rolling.
569, responds to an accusation explaining why he supported the wagons that he did.
696, says he has Cherry Pie as weak town.
749, responds to an accusation. Agrees with a vote.
873, says that if he doesn’t have anything to add, he won’t add it.
892, says he has a gut feel on Dyslexicon and wants to poke that way. Doesn’t say anything else.
937, after a claim, switches to Scott Brosius.
1072, speculates about the setup.
1156, agrees with an observation and places an FOS.
1177, votes Daemon for scuttling along and getting a free pass.
1182, Gives up and votes himself, says he can’t develop reads at all. Says he has no idea what he was doing.
1124, vote count analysis.

I just don't see much difference at all. He hasn't been any more of an interrogator there than he has been here. Nearly everything he did in that game until very late in the game was to respond to accusations on him. I don't see him going after his suspects strongly either. Which post did he do that in? I am unable to see the evidence that should be a cause for alarm.

_______________

I'll get through Toomai's other games and Nacho's post later.

[Toomai]

why some of these reads changed?

I don't think I can really explain it other than reading different posts as different things given the hindsight of the known claims and flips.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Toomai, can you explain your reads? Why is someone null or town or scum. What are the reasons that you found their posts townish or scummy?

[fferyllt]

I've read through Toomai's 3 completed non-newbie games.

In Mini 1449 he's more of an interrogator. He asks questions as well as making observations and I think does go after people he suspects pretty strongly. I'm also seeing evidence of his analysis tools in the game. It shows up in his reads list and then later in vote tables.

Comparing that game to this one was actually alarming, because in this game, the only post that smacks of interrogation was his question to jasonwazza early day 1 here, which came after his case and vote.

Okay, just went through this game and checked his ISO. My comments are in the spoiler.

Spoiler:

Mini 1449
32, has misgivings about how fast a wagon built up but lets it be anyways
87, reads Cherry Pie and Hapahauli as town since he wasn’t seeing poor logic on either side, votes NicCage for making 3 bad posts.
105, defends himself, asks for an explanation.
108, votes GCBC in response to hapahauli asking him why he dropped suspicion. Elaborates on his reasoning for his vote. Said that a sequence of posts contained dubious logic etc, and then provides questions for target to answer.
136, defends himself from a case, unvotes, says he doesn’t know how to create discussion.
164, points out 3 posts he doesn’t like, asks questions regarding why the player has no nullreads.
217, goes on VLA, comes back with a list of reads. He rarely actually explains WHY someone is scummy or not, only that they are. His best method of rooting out scum seems to be bad logic.
219, responds to an OMGUS accusation.
229, explains one read well, very reserved on explaining the others and doesn’t really expand much. Logic is again the primary, almost only differentiator.
Hapahauli’s 233 is interesting. He points out that Toomai has a lack of initiative and barely asks any questions, and even the ones that do, he doesn’t follow up on them or even factor them into his reads.
296, responds to an accusation. Says he is okay with Varsoon or NicCage being lynched for low signal to noise ratio.
363 is good. Gives a minor case on why he thinks a player is scum. Explains it all.
409, hypothesizes about a role claim.
515, weakly pushes a suspect saying that with an extended deadline, maybe they can get a wagon rolling.
569, responds to an accusation explaining why he supported the wagons that he did.
696, says he has Cherry Pie as weak town.
749, responds to an accusation. Agrees with a vote.
873, says that if he doesn’t have anything to add, he won’t add it.
892, says he has a gut feel on Dyslexicon and wants to poke that way. Doesn’t say anything else.
937, after a claim, switches to Scott Brosius.
1072, speculates about the setup.
1156, agrees with an observation and places an FOS.
1177, votes Daemon for scuttling along and getting a free pass.
1182, Gives up and votes himself, says he can’t develop reads at all. Says he has no idea what he was doing.
1124, vote count analysis.

I just don't see much difference at all. He hasn't been any more of an interrogator there than he has been here. Nearly everything he did in that game until very late in the game was to respond to accusations on him. I don't see him going after his suspects strongly either. Which post did he do that in? I am unable to see the evidence that should be a cause for alarm.

_______________

I'll get through Toomai's other games and Nacho's post later.

I feel pretty confident I saw what I think I saw in his posts. I'll review it tomorrow and document what I see as the tonal differences.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

UNVOTE:

I am not as sure about this anymore. Nacho's catchup post seems very similar to the one in Mini 1472 where some of his posts came off as though he knew which direction he was going to go even before finishing the catchup.

I also see ffery's later posts as helpful to town. I am leaning more towards Penguin/someone else team at this point. Only problem is I am not certain about Toomai being scum so I can't see who Penguin's partner would be. I'll need to double check on a ton of Nacho meta after finishing up Toomai meta - that should help.

Pedit: yeah that will help.

[Toomai]

Toomai, can you explain your reads? Why is someone null or town or scum. What are the reasons that you found their posts townish or scummy?

Well alright I'll slap together a big-o list.

FFF and JW are town by default because I believe the claims.

Amrun I have as townish upon reread because of the Stubbs stuff as well as other things. Specifically:

• 28 (+1%) Raises valid point
  
• 31 (+1%) Poking someone who showed up without much comment
  
• 37 (-1%) Pointless filler
  
• 51 (-1%) The whole "passive voice" argument I never cared for
  
• 56 (+1%) Good question, sensible answers
  
• 72 (+1%) Telling JW to get on with it
  
• 121 (+1%) Getting rid of the bad argument and spelling out the better one
  
• 138 (+1%) Just agreement with the post in general
  
• 182 (+1%) Calls me out for being bad
  
• 203 (+1%) The additional point
  
• 205 (+1%) Pointing out the suspicious timeline
  
• 268 (+1%) "idiocy != scum" is always a townish thing to remind people of
  
• 342 (+1%) Same as previous basically
  
• 394 (+1%) WAFFLES; also point makes sense
  
• 570 (+2%) Entire post is just town
  
• 575 (+1%) Sensible reasoning
  
• 576 (+1%) Same as previous
  
• 595 (+1%) Decent point raised
  
• Result:
  +15%

fferyllt I have as weaker town because:

• 81 (+1%) Liked question.
  
• 120 (-1%) "passive voice" report
  
• 130 (+1%) Decent enough questions
  
• 140 (+1%) Also a good question
  
• 160 (+1%) The callout of reads without reasons
  
• 162 (+1%) Same as above
  
• 171 (+1%) Also same as above
  
• 247 (+1%) Okay with this reasoning
  
• 282 (+1%) Totally understandable sentiment
  
• 423 (+1%) Reaction upon reading was "Indeed.", caught onto something that make little sense
  
• 549 (+1%) Case generally agreed with.
  
• 726 (-1%) Really sticks out to me as something that doesn't need to be said by town
  
• 779 (+1%) Reasonable results from meta investigation
  
• Result:
  +9%

I'll continue when I have more time tomorrow.

[penguin_alien]

Toomai, how is Nacho still null to you? Given that you have categories of weak null-X, you can't even put Nacho on one side of the fence or the other? Also, do you think only town can be sensible/have good reasoning/make good points?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Penguin_Alien, talk to me about your thoughts on the rest of the game? Who do you think is scum and why? What happened to your read on MSG?

[penguin_alien]

I agree with your observation on Nacho that in the cited Mini game he came in with clear opinions as town, and one of the two panned out as scum. Still not seeing town-Nacho based on other games of actually playing with him, but then I also haven't ever played a game where he subbed in, IIRC.

I've played more (exclusively?) with fferyllt when she's been hydra'd, but again this doesn't feel like town-fferyllt. I can't articulate it, beyond that it's like fferyllt is more overtly aggressive and less bridge-buildy than normal?

Stubbs' read list as discussed earlier makes me think there's definitely scum in {fferyllt, MSG} and {Nacho, Toomai} with the former more likely in each case.

MSG is my weakest town read pending RachMarie getting active again. Reading over his ISO now, he shifted to a more generally conciliatory stance in how he related to everyone, and I can't tell if it's a scum player switching things up or a town player adjusting to others.

Toomai's making me a bit nutty with his generic reads--it's like pulling teeth to get a straight answer out of him that doesn't go back to 1% this and graph that. I think it's a style thing, but his reads all feel like IIOA.

F-16, how would your reads change if I was the lynch for today and you would then know I was town?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I'd ask what town-Nacho is like but I'd much rather see him post a lot more before delving more into meta. I agree with the read on fferyllt usually being more aggressive. Her willingness to read through Toomai's meta and take a strong stance on it was townish - although I am concerned she never really followed up on her case on you, or asked more questions or probed further. I checked more of her meta and her entire tone and playstyle is so different from this game which has me concerned.

Toomai's reads fit his meta. I want to see what more he comes up with. What about his reads do you believe is IIOA? Do you agree with Nacho's, ffery's or my analysis of how his games relate to his other games?

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

MSG is my weakest town read pending RachMarie getting active again. Reading over his ISO now, he shifted to a more generally conciliatory stance in how he related to everyone, and I can't tell if it's a scum player switching things up or a town player adjusting to others.

So, if you can't tell how whether his shift is town or scum motivated, how did your scumread become a weak town read?

[penguin_alien]

I'm not meta-reading Toomai at this point. I resort to it sometimes, but I trust my knowledge of people based on actually playing with them better than reading past games, given confirmation bias and my own reading habits.

Toomai's latest list of individual posts and his reactions to them--some of it revolves around people pointing things out. Some of it's approving of the content of posts, but there's no personal investment there. Such as saying something is sensible, or reasonable--scum are rarely gibbering idiots; scum can be reasonable and sensible and make good points. His reads aren't based on alignment-indicative things from what I can tell. In the above list, his negatives are for filler (if it's coming from town) and an argument he doesn't like. Not one that he's refuting or pointing out problems with--he just doesn't like it. And nearly everything is weighted the same, except the one Amrun post that's 'just town' with no further qualifiers.

The whole thing just leaves me thinking that even if it fits his meta, it's not a hard style to fake as scum.

I actually think fferyllt is being aggressive in a different way than normal for her town game. It's a less productive aggression? I'm not sure, and it's late, almost 2 AM; I'll come back to this tomorrow (or, well, later today...)

P-edit: reading MSG's posts as he made them and as I was reading the thread, I had a different sense of them than seeing them all together in his ISO. It tipped him back to a weak scum read, but a) I want to see what his replacement does [the not having fun part was odd; not seeing much in-thread to have changed], and b) I still find them more transparent than Toomai's, so push comes to shove I'd lynch Toomai first. But I think I'm more interested in lynching fferyllt or Nacho today.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

Can you elaborate on what this difference was as far as reading MSG's posts in his ISO and reading them in thread? I want to see what your thought process was here. How did it lead you to different conclusions? (I am assuming you meant "weakest scum read" in 791).

How has fferyllt been aggressive this game (besides her push on you)? I'd like to see the elaboration.

Toomai's reads being based on things that are sensible or reasonable is not be alignment indicative of him. Reading through his games, I noticed he often mentions whether someone has good logic or bad logic. So, when you call him out on mentioning non-alignment indicative things, that itself is not alignment indicative because he does this as town as well. If it fits his meta but isn't a hard style to fake as scum, then it is null.

[fferyllt]

This is PM format. The threads are locked, so quote doesn't work.

Spoiler: selected quotes from a couple games

Mini 1449

Subject: Mini 1449 - Ordinary Town

I see GCBC as mostly null leaning weak scum. My original vote on it was because I took 19 seriously, which others have said may not be the case and I now somewhat agree with. Also didn't like how the sequence of 37-39-41 contained dubious logic, a sheep vote, and a request/demand for more sheep - the wagon itself was not a bad idea for why I said in 87 but he jumped on it without even waiting for the answer to the question of why.

Actually, now that I look at it, he jumped on it after NicCage asked why him and not me. That makes no sense.

Vote: GoodCopBadCop

I want these things answered:

• 19: Was this a serious (non-RVS) vote, and if so why?
• 39: Why did you only sheepvote NicCage after he asked why he was being singled out?

This is a strong, assertive interrogative post.

Subject: Mini 1449 - Ordinary Town

Understand where you're coming from, Hapa.

You just seem way too eager to play town.

I don't like this post.

I'd like a GCBC flip or a NicCage flip.
Although, I really like Nic, so I guess,
Either a Toomai flip or a hapahauli flip would also be good.

This one bugged me as well since it didn't really explain anything.

ACFAN: Scum.
CHEERPIE: Town.
DAEMON: Scum.
DYSLEXICON: Scum.
GCBC: Scum.
HAPAH: Town.
HPLEAVES: Town.
PONYJAKE: Scum.
NICCAGE: Scum.
QWINTS: Scum.
SCOTT: Scum.
TOOMAI: Town.
ZEFIEND: Scum.

You said "no nulls". Did you squish your reads into the boolean format just to get rid of nulls, or do you actually have no nulls?

In other news, Daemon385 needs to put more effort into making his sentences understandable.

This one as well. It's a perceptive question asked in a challenging way.

But the other questions in this game that I read as fairly forceful earlier don't appear that strong on reread. I think I was picking up a strong defensive tone in his interactions with haphauli and jake from rainbowdash and reading it as offensive.

Mini 1464

Subject: Mini 1464 - Game Over

The fact that neither of the top 2 wagons are willing to vote for each other further suggests they could be a scum team. I am almost willing to switch to md to move the day along.

I don't think that's too strong an argument on day 1 before any wagons have significantly fallen down. If it were later in the day then maybe but I'm not convinced.

@HC: your not doing a good job of convincing anyone that your town.

I don't see a precedent for putting this out. What was it?

Still would like to get an answer to this.

Following up when his question wasn't answered the first time. This is another strong defense sort of interaction.

Subject: Mini 1464 - Game Over

Smudger: If you weren't spoiled before you started, did you believe or disbelieve the Doctor claim as you were reading?

I also feel you somewhat missed how Infinity suddenly decided I was town. To me it stopped being potential distancing there and started being flailing.

I agree that Zhero hasn't done much, but Daemon hasn't either, and his extrahammer and murky posts don't look good on him.

Vote: Daemon385

Here's another question, but the thing that stands out about this post is the wide focus of scumhunting. Strong stances, strongly worded observations. Not just in this post, but in most of them.

Subject: Mini 1464 - Game Over

wat

Your first post in three days is filler? Really? Why do you not post any insight on the discussion since then?

I've skimmed (very lightly skimmed, mind) day one of his newbie games, and iso'd him in those games,

anything in particular you want to share with us to back it up?

No.

So you re-evaluate a read based on meta and decline to give concrete examples as to why, okay.

Aggressive questioning here.

Subject: Mini 1464 - Game Over

I think I am right with that, point being that if Daemon is scum as Toomai suspects, then there was a bus being created by Infinity on Daemon and Toomai is maintaining that bus, if Toomai is scum as 2birds believes. However if Daemon is being set up here and is in fact town then, on that basis, flip the list that Toomai has posted as his reads, then it would point to the fact that HC is his buddy, If Toomai is scum. Therefore it would seem to me, based on the reads from Inifinity's ISO, that Toomai is indeed scum as suspected by 2birds and therefore 2birds read is correct.

You summarize reads that show indecision over a given player, lay out two situations that you believe to be true should that player be scum, and then determine that yes you believe that player to be scum. I don't really follow how this logic is connected.

And this is a strong defensive post with pushback.

Subject: Mini 1464 - Game Over

[...] shpeal[...]

Indeed your spheal was bad. Half of the first paragraph is all empty generalities and appeal to emotion, and paragraphs 3 and 4 were fence-sitting as all get out. Your OMGUS-ish vote doesn't help your cause.

More strong stance.

I don't have time to do the third game tonight. Will work on it sometime tomorrow.

[fferyllt]

I actually think fferyllt is being aggressive in a different way than normal for her town game. It's a less productive aggression? I'm not sure, and it's late, almost 2 AM; I'll come back to this tomorrow (or, well, later today...)

I agree with the read on fferyllt usually being more aggressive. Her willingness to read through Toomai's meta and take a strong stance on it was townish - although I am concerned she never really followed up on her case on you, or asked more questions or probed further. I checked more of her meta and her entire tone and playstyle is so different from this game which has me concerned.

I don't think I am being aggressive at all tbh. My playstyle changes based on how effective I feel I"ve been in recent games and based on the playerlist - and hence the overall pace and mood of the game. I do sometimes have slow-ish games, though. I think in the game you cited, F16, I was called out for not having much content or impact on the game or something. It turned out I was being called out by scum in that one. But, I've heard similar from town players a few times.

PA, in the newbie game of yours that I replaced into, everything that has worked for me replacing into games in the past didn't just not work - it failed so badly that I wound up being mislynched. I don't get mislynched all that often. It was sobering.

[F-16_Fighting_Falcon]

I don't think I am being aggressive at all tbh. My playstyle changes based on how effective I feel I"ve been in recent games and based on the playerlist - and hence the overall pace and mood of the game. I do sometimes have slow-ish games, though. I think in the game you cited, F16, I was called out for not having much content or impact on the game or something. It turned out I was being called out by scum in that one. But, I've heard similar from town players a few times.

I am not sure what Penguin is referring to with you about being aggressive. My concern was actually the opposite: based on the one game we played, you were much more aggressive pushing a case on JasonWazza and completely changing the direction of the game.

PA, in the newbie game of yours that I replaced into, everything that has worked for me replacing into games in the past didn't just not work - it failed so badly that I wound up being mislynched. I don't get mislynched all that often. It was sobering.

I think you played quite well. You came in, figured out who the scum was immediately and pushed for a lynch. It was primarily

one

player's paranoia that got you mislynched and POE, since everyone but you and Jason were obvtown. With a different playerlist, it wouldn't have happened.

---

Toomai's behavior in this game also has a lot of the qualities you mentioned.

Spoiler: selected quotes from this game

Vote: JasonWazza

His posts consist as follows:

1. Random vote.
   
2. VOTE: is scum.
   
3. You're inconsistent.
   
4. You're parroting.
   
5. VOTE: is scum. You're inconsistent.
   
6. Filler?
   
7. VOTE: is scum (implied).
   
8. VOTE: is scum.

Give us something real.

Makes a case based on Jason's posts.

Are you planning on telling us why you have scumread instead of just yammering on that you have one?

Strongly worded accusation.

I'm having a look for passive voice in LnnnGrrrR's town game here:

Really what is the point in this? Seems like nothing more than a distraction.

Inquisitive nature with a strong dismissive tone. This matches up with him saying he had a weak aggregate townread on LngrrrR and that he felt that the passive voice thing was BS.

Now that that's over, I can say for sure that yeah Stubbs is pretty scummy. The case in 200 currently has me convinced; 157 in particular stands out to me as awful. But I won't be voting him until he can reply to all this.

Strong stance on Stubbs. Says that a post is "awful" and that the case has him convinced.

I really want to post but I have nothing to contribute. I have weak, aggregate reads on four players and doubt the correctness of all of them.

Which four players? Why do you have the reads you have on those players?

JasonWazza: Slightly scummy because of what he's done so far (i.e. nothing but claim that he has a scumread and that he'll elaborate later). To be honest I feel like I should consider him null until he actually elaborates, but I feel his attitude about it (especially early on) is anti-town at best.
LnGrrrR: Slightly town because...don't know to be honest, it's mostly an aggregate of extremely slightly town posts.
Fegelein: Slightly town for the same reason as LnGrrrR (i.e. basically gut).
Squilly: Currently of the opinion he's newbietown, since I think someone with claimed offline experience would put a bit more work into learning how to be town online.

A wide focus of scumhunting.

I am Argus Filch, JoAT just like stubbs claims to be.

Follower, Reporter, Voyeur.

Given that this is pretty weak overall, and fits in flavour, I'm inclined to believe it.

Still don't like how he's yet to explain anything but I'm keeping my vote on Marquis.

Definitive stance about the claim.

I will share who I protected after everyone checks in.

Why would you wait? Why does it matter?

Wait a second, the mod told you that you were blocked?

Well he claimed a JOAT with a Cop part, so if he got no result he'd know he was blocked.

It should be said however that this is a pretty easy way to hold up a fakeclaim. (I doubt the Stubbs claim more than the other claims at this stage.)

More inquisitive questioning.

Here is what I don't get... If Stubbs was roleblocked, why weren't Jason or I killed? Scum trying to introduce WIFOM and have town mislynch? Just throws me off.

Yeah this is rather suspicious. Leaving both claimed JOATs alive for the mindgames isn't hard to believe, but the uncountered 1-shot Doctor is somewhat. Maybe they were fishing for an unclaimed PR? That would presume that both JOAT claims are town, which I currently don't think is likely.

More questioning, taking stances, refusing to believe both JOAT claims as town. He has been pretty anti-Stubbs the entire game.

In post 523, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:124 is terrible where he asks ffery what the point is of having a look for passive voice in lngrrrR's town game. I think it is fairly obvious: if LngrrrR generally uses passive voice as town, then it becomes a null tell. LngrrrR was also the hot topic for discussion at the time, so checking up his meta is hardly a distraction.

The whole "passive voice" argument seemed like pointless, pedantic garbage to me and went on way too long.

Another strongly worded stance.

Fruit vendor plus one-shot doc that may only stump rather than save plus weak JOAT =/= strong JOAT. And the fruit vendor fits as a negative utility town role.

UNVOTE: MSG

Intent to vote for Stubbs pending his checking in here.

I don't get this post. What do you mean by saying that three weaker claimed roles "is not equal to" one stronger claimed role? How is Fruit Vendor negative utility? Why would you need to declare intent to vote to L-2?

More questioning and demands for explanation.

---

I could keep going. The only thing he doesn't do here that he did in the other games is push back strongly in defense when accused.

Some of your quotes from the other game are responses to accusations, not pro-active behavior. For example, this one is rather out of context:

Subject: Mini 1464 - Game Over
Subject: Mini 1464 - Game Over

wat

Your first post in three days is filler? Really? Why do you not post any insight on the discussion since then?

I've skimmed (very lightly skimmed, mind) day one of his newbie games, and iso'd him in those games,

anything in particular you want to share with us to back it up?

No.

So you re-evaluate a read based on meta and decline to give concrete examples as to why, okay.

Aggressive questioning here.

Aggressive questioning here.

It is a response to 2birds1stone voting Toomai but not providing any solid reasoning. When Toomai asked him if he cared to share the reasoning, 2birds said "no" which led to the more aggressive question from Toomai.

[fferyllt]

I thought I acknowledged that in my post last night? That I was seeing strong defense in some posts and interpreting it as offense in my first readthrough.