Mini 1501: We're On A Boat! (END?! results inside)

[SleepyKrew]

SleepyKrew, are you out of lazymode?

BEGINNING REREAD/CATCHUP NOW

[SleepyKrew]

Hey hey, I see Maestro is a thing again.

Why isn't anyone else's throats being jumped down for that? I don't get it.

ns is the only new person, and I began questioning him, so kindly stfu

It's a good reason, but nobody seems all that swayed by it except NotSci. You guys just just say it's good, so it's ok for me to be out here on this lonely wagon.

How do you know that it swayed ns? Why do you think ns was voting Maestro for your reason and not LOL LYNCH THE LURKER?

Unvote

Hi Empire.

Why did you unvote?

#158> Ah, this is where I got my SK townread. Okay. I especially like the Spyrex-relevant items. This is SK town.

Is this a meta read?

UNVOTE

Do you have a history of avoiding lynching strong players D1?

.

Hey you
Why did you vote Maestro

[SleepyKrew]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Brian Skies

I need to do some ISOs later but right now, I think we've generated lots of good discussion and it's time to get this utility lynchtrain choo chooing.

[Plum]

Sorry, prodded, busy weekend. Catching up ASAP.

[fferyllt]

It's a good reason, but nobody seems all that swayed by it except NotSci. You guys just just say it's good, so it's ok for me to be out here on this lonely wagon.

How do you know that it swayed ns? Why do you think ns was voting Maestro for your reason and not LOL LYNCH THE LURKER?

I don't know why he voted Maestro, though the timing suggested there could be some correlation going on. I made the post to see if/how ns would react. I'm taking silence as somewhat iffy acquiescence.

Unvote

Hi Empire.

Why did you unvote?

I usually do unvote replacements unless I'm strongly convinced the predecessor was scum.

UNVOTE

Do you have a history of avoiding lynching strong players D1?

I prefer to give strong players I don't know some space so that I can learn how they play, especially in a game where the majority of players are not well known to me. In a game where I feel I can read most of the players accurately, the movement of a new-to-me player against a well-understood backdrop is easier to sort. That's not the case here. And, it's making this game pretty interesting and enjoyable.

If you want example games, let me know. I can dig up games sorting an unknown but by reputation strong player in a mostly well-known player list, and games sorting the same in a less well understood player list.

[SleepyKrew]

No need to dig up games; I doubt you'd lie about that and I'm lazy.
I thought Maestro was your top scumread at the time?

[fferyllt]

No need to dig up games; I doubt you'd lie about that and I'm lazy.
I thought Maestro was your top scumread at the time?

He was. That doesn't make it an objectively strong read. Just the strongest of the bunch at the time.

[pitoli]

Can’t make an omelette without killing a few people.
~ Neil Gaiman

VOTE COUNT 1.9

Spyrex:

Plum, Empire, Notscience, CrashTextDummie

YYR:

fferyllt

Empire:

Kazekimaru

Kazekirimaru

: Garmr, SpyreX

Brian Skies:

ChannelDelibird, LolWagons, SleepyKrew

Not Voting:

Brian Skies, YYR

With 13 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

Time until deadline: (expired on 2013-10-17 00:00:00)

Mod Notes

: I've been "prodded" to provide more frequent votecounts. Sorry guys, that's my bad and I'll try to be more on top of it!

[CrashTextDummie]

Mod: that votecount is incorrect. Kaze is voting Empire

Now, I get to do something I don't think I've ever done before because you've got this knack for getting right under my skin.

The sentiment is entirely mutual. At least I got a kick out of you giving me, of all people, a lecture on your pedigree. I have a bit of experience myself, and your theory stances are simply incompatible with mine. But you've presented them with enough conviction at this point that I can see them not being scum-motivated.

This entire conversation is reminding me more and more of spats I've had with The Fonz, who I've spent pages arguing with because we have a knack for getting under each other's skin. I'm beginning to feel that we may have just started off on the wrong foot and I'm inclined to give you the benefit of doubt.

--------------------------

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Brian Skies

I need to do some ISOs later but right now, I think we've generated lots of good discussion and it's time to get this utility lynchtrain choo chooing.

I like this vote a lot less than I wanted to. What happened to this?

I agree that he needs to be dead before LYLO, but don't you think a D1 policy lynch right out the gate is a not-so-good idea?

You've argued against a policy lynch and otherwise didn't have much to say about Brian. What changed?

[CrashTextDummie]

Still think this is the laziest post in the game:

Didn't get much out of the catchup. I'm still not getting where everyone is getting a town read on Brian. The SK/Smudger back and forth made me a bit more comfortable on SK, but I kind of just skimmed through Smudger's post. Still like my vote where it is.

He was the first to vote Kaze based on rather weak reasoning, which wasn't really a problem considering the stage of the game we were in. However in the meantime, a serious wagon had formed (L-2) and Kaze had addressed YYR's line of attack, so for him to drop in just stating that he "likes [his] vote where it is" is seriously suspect to me. This post was allegedly the result of a catch-up, and if that's all he had to say, I very strongly question if he has any interest in scum-hunting.

And his latest post reads to me like he's trying to come up with reasons to remove his vote from a dead wagon without outright having to reverse his read more than anything else. It seems forced and image-conscious.

Unvote, Vote: YYR

[LolWagons]

@CTD

The main thing that gave me pause is Spyrex's "I'm not going to answer this, if you look hard enough you can find it" post right before my own. I generally read those as town if they are in a certain context (not deflecting, actually serving to be productive) and its a context I believe this one was in. Scum are generally looking for appeasement and to justify all their reads, when you see someone say "if you look hard enough you'll find it" it seems to always be blatant deflecting or very blunt and genuine. This particular instance gave me the latter feeling.

NSs random vote on Spy makes more sense now and you'd have a hard time convincing me NS wasn't town after this.

@ SK
Its partly a meta read but that meta is a year old. Im no fool. Its more just a game specific read.

This was more of a response post, I plan to take another look at the thread after I open up my mind with a workout and some post workout liquor.

[LolWagons]

Also, CTD, as a passing thought and a general rule, if I don't have to fight for the first half of a wagon I lead I ALWAYS get paranoid.

[SleepyKrew]

Yeah, I was against a policy lynch right out the gate. This is no longer the beginning of D1. People have reads and content and stuff. But Brian still needs to be dead and the earlier, the better.

[Brian Skies]

@SK: That hurts my feelings a bit. But if town can find the scumteam off my death, then so be it. You already have my claim, so town can just lynch away.

Also, of the players not in my townpile, this is the one I'm most comfortable with voting right now:

VOTE: CDB

It pings the gut.

[notscience]

SK, it was kinda a pressure vote and was basically a proddodge.

[LolWagons]

SK would you be voting him if he had not claimed miller?

For me, its more of just scummy play in general rather than the claim. For me the claim itself sheds more doubt on him-scum than his play. I think I even mentioned that in my catchup post.

I wish I had a vote for scum and a vote for pressure but since I can't piss and sneeze at the same time I'm just going to be blunt:

YYR, who is scum and why u no vote? The content you've put forth is lackluster and for a while I was kind of BotDing you but your posts seem to say many things without saying many things.

I'll probably post nightly but this Friday I plan on doing a reread with Spyrex/NotSci neighborbuddies in mind and less people in my townpile and see if approaching the game from a different perspective helps at all.

[SleepyKrew]

SK, it was kinda a pressure vote and was basically a proddodge.

omg do I need to explain why a pressure vote is useless again

SK would you be voting him if he had not claimed miller?

idk
I haven't bothered developing a read on him. Probably not.

[SleepyKrew]

@SK: That hurts my feelings a bit. But if town can find the scumteam off my death, then so be it. You already have my claim, so town can just lynch away.

It'd be great if you started scumhunting HARD and pushing questions etc
Maybe make this game a little higher priority yknow?

[Garmr]

Well I'm going to be honest I've become really lost in this game. So if someone starts questioning me I might get back into the loop.

[SleepyKrew]

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON A BRIAN LYNCH

[fferyllt]

My thoughts are that it's pretty bad to lynch vote someone you can't be arsed to develop a read on.

I'm kinda sad that I'm townreading the post. :/

[SleepyKrew]

Why bother developing a read on someone I want lynched no matter what?

[fferyllt]

Is this always your policy re millers?

[SleepyKrew]

I don't think I've ever been in this situation before.

[Empire]

Let's see if I can plow through this whole thing in an hour. I'm not 100% mentally here right now so if I miss something, please let me know.

@Empire are you free to do any hydras because your meta reads just blew my mind and I feel like I can learn allot from you.

Haha, thanks but I'm trying to cut down on the hydra games I'm in. I'm doing one coming up soon only because I promised a friend of mine. Maybe sometime down the line?

This pile really needs to be brought to light.

1.) In what universe is a miller a shield considering more than one person

wanted him dead for just that

?
2.) Yessir he was sure saying look elsewhere:

I'm the miller. I'm going to die anyways, look for someone else.

I assume the town typically either lynches the miller at some point or a vig shoots him at night.

3.) I'm not "keeping options open". I'm stating a fact. If this isn't a sweep, a miller claim gets lynched because it WILL be lynched at lylo for a loss. Its too easy and it has to be dealt with. Period. I'm pretty sure that "the meta" hasn't shifted that much since I've been around and, if it has, thats bad and you should feel bad. I want to win without having to eat what WILL be a mislynch.
4.) Now, I know I'm not hip with the lingo and I'm sooo hard to follow but the same "broken record" that Slaxx espoused was me saying that while I want(ed) the lynch, I do not want it fast and I want other things dealt with beforehand. This isn't even looking at it sideways. I want someones to straight faced tell me that ANYWHERE you get "without deliberation" from what I said. I want that done before this day is done because, when the time comes, I want whomever is left alive to murder any slot with impunity that has the stones to commit to weapons-grade nonsense.
5.) Kaze is "opportunistic". When SK started, I wasn't down with it. However, as things progressed SK is giving far more positive vibes and this is kaze:
[...]
And this isn't even under "the heat". This is little pokes exploding into nonsense over and over again. That kind of circuit rewire makes waaay more sense as scum capitulating to pressure and milking the death.

And, of course, the other vaunted scum read is Brian (and a lurker oooooh). In what universe would that make any, ANY, sense. This isn't a large. There's not room to dance that retarded of a dance.

But it sure looks good on paper.

[

edited out the flaily arms picture

]

Ok, let's dance then:
1) I already explained how claiming miller is a shield -- the claim is someone basically coming out and saying "hey, I am immune to cop investigations." Maybe I'm cynical because I've been burned by a miller fakeclaim in the past but just because someone wants them dead early does not mean they will actually become dead (I know two miller fakeclaims off the top of my head, one of which was a game that I was in, and in both the scumbag in question endgamed).
2) What I meant by the "look elsewhere" point is that Brian feels like he's been playing up the martyr act precisely to make people look elsewhere. It's not just him saying to "look elsewhere" but that he's pushing people to do so with his actions.
3) The issue that I have is that you were taking the claim as legit to the point where you criticized someone for jumping onto it while at the same time saying Brian probably needs to be lynched at some point down the road. Now I don't know how miller claims were dealt with in the past but it seems really weird to suggest that the game can be won without having to deal with the claim while at the same time suggesting that there must be some point where we have to deal with him down the road. They seem like mutually exclusive positions, which doesn't make sense to me, and that's why it feels like you're keeping your options open w.r.t. the miller claim.
4) Then I misunderstood #88 ("I'm not super anxious, but I do not want to see this mill about forever and a day waiting for the check in. I want Aero blood all over my face")? I interpreted that line as saying you didn't really want to waste a whole lot of time deliberating things.
5) I was gonna ask you what gave you positive vibes on SK but it seems like the stuff's already been answered which helps clears things a bit for me here (disagree on Kaze though, I think the flail is something that depends a lot more on personality / playstyle than alignment).
6) I haven't put a whole lot of thought into associations between my scumreads aside from some hypothetical stuff about Brian's claim. I just put my scumreads into their own little section of the list and that's that for now -- I typically don't even think about that stuff unless I'm alive on D2/3/etc or we've had a flip.

@Empire, this is a general question about your reads list. Is a full reads list something you do when you are in games from the start?

Not really. The full reads lists tend to come when I replace into games. It's a habit I picked up from Regfan. When I'm in a game from the start, I just do them whenever I feel like it.