Tales of You (Endgame)

[Yulia Jue]

Votecount 3-8

With 12 players alive, it will take 7 votes to lynch or no lynch.

Magenta_thegreat (1): PeregrineV
AngryPidgeon (1): magenta_thegreat
CupcakePanda (6): AngryPidgeon, Just Sheep Us, Nachomamma8, The Fox and the Hound, Breakfast With Stalin, CupcakePanda

Not Voting (4): Penguin_Alien, Red Gyarados, CarbonFiber, Titan

Mod Note: Please note that rule #22; part two was used to generate this count

Deadline is set at 13 days: (expired on 2014-05-20 18:13:27)

[The Fox and the Hound]

So yeah I get that I'm being bad, but what does that have to do with reading me? Considering you've actually argued in previous games that, if anything, more posts = scum DV, I don't get it. And it's not like I haven't provided enough posts for someone to get a read on me.

Is your motivation in this game to catch scum or to "provide enough posts for people to get a read on you"?

I still need to ISO you of course, but I don't really remember you trying very hard to prevent mastin getting lynched (a lot of talk about policy lynching comes to mind),

so I don't understand why you can be pissy with me

, especially when I think my thoughts on the subject were pretty reasonable.

You just discarded my point to prevent mastin getting lynched and went back to doing your own thing. And I had to put up with mastin howling about thinking Im scum all day which made me fairly apathetic about defending her, but I fucking tried. Dont tell me I didnt.

-Have you been reading my posts? I've been really really really clear that I want to do better and want to be more involved and get my reads solid and in order and not be lazy with them. However, I am no better at doing that kind of thing as town than as scum (one could even argue for the opposite), and so that is my problem!

-I may have been too rash with that considering I probably didn't read all of your posts so I apologise if I'm just very wrong, but that was the impression I got.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I am also sorry that people have to put up with my walls, but there are days where I'm out from 5am until after 5pm and have a lot to catch up with afterwards. This is no excuse to not contribute as I'm a master at wasting time, but walls are probably going to happen unfortunately (and I probably like reading them even less than you all do).

[Breakfast With Sandy]

-I think that two players reported being blocked. I don't suspect either of these players nor townread either of these players because of their report. Is there a reason why you think it's important?

And you think there could be 3 (or possibly more if cupcakepanda is town) blocking roles?

Why are you using degree of attention to read me?

There are two of you. Since maybe mid-late day 1 neither of you have been much of a presence in the game. Your catch ups have been forgettable and often lacking questions or opinions about significant game events. Like today.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Even if RG is scum they probably were actually roleblocked.

You think there's a second town roleblocker?

I think there are lots of roleblockers! (well maybe not lots but a couple)

Ok, caught up. Now, on AP: (Oh and if you're feeling lazy and don't feel like reading through lots of stuff, I won't mind if you skip through these rambly spoilered things. I know I've done it enough times.)

Spoiler: AP

I'm going to prioritise reading others over perusing the full length of his ISO. Maybe I'm being lazy and I'm bound to be biased here, so feel free to insult me. I've kind of been disappointed so far though. My avatar is not very cute? Wow that really cut deep man! But it was the best I got Nacho so many <3's to you.

But now, actually on AP.

We have:

-CF's claim from Stalin's role that AP did nothing Night 1. Now, this has only just now (like last couple of minutes now) occurred to me (it may have been mentioned already and I just missed it like a doofus, or maybe not), but this actually seems pretty significant to me. First, it matches with AP's claim, and the only scenario I can think of where he as scum would have known to claim no result is if AP is scum with CF and/or Stalin. And this leads to me what I feel is the significant part. How does someone in the scumteam do nothing? This set-up is one where most people seem to have some kind of active role (and I'm pretty sure scum would too!), and if he doesn't, then it would make pretty good sense for him to be performing the kill. It could be that he was actually roleblocked, but I'd expect that would have come up by now if from town (if this happened I'd probably want to know though). So, if I am to make the assumption that AP either would perform the kill and/or have an active role of use to the scumteam, it doesn't make sense for him to be scum unless he is with CF and/or Stalin. I am not sure how comfortable I am with this assumption, but overall I think it's significant. Edit: It's possible he targeted Kagura-town with a result-receiving role and knew that it would be safe to claim no result there, so it's probably not as good as I thought, but I think it does the reduce the likelihood of Kagura/AP scum coordinating their claims (unless the team's AP/Nacho/Stalin/JSU or something) and of someone from AP's team targeting Kagura and getting no result.

-We have JSU's Night 2 claim of visiting Stalin + non-replica. I think this has been covered to death in thread, but of course it's pretty key. Obviously AP being godfatherlike and JSU being scum with him are the two possibilities. First, this is dependent on other roles, but with what we have at the moment, I think it makes much for sense for AP's role to exist if CF is town. I don't think JSU's role alone justifies a miller considering the abundance of roleblock possibilities and even the existence of a godfather makes a more sense if AP is town, in which case he obviously can't be a godfather, but I'm more confident in the first point than the second, and obviously these are moot if other cop-style roles exist in the town.

-Finally from the role-related things, there is Cupcake's delay claim. Unless JSU is scum, we can be pretty confident that AP did not in fact get delayed. I'm getting tired and feel like I'm missing things that I was thinking as I read through, but I think that's all there that's relevant to AP's alignment.

I do have niggles such as the possibility that the initial claim was just a stuff up (although reading over it again I still think it's more likely from town) and there have been posts of his which have bothered me, but the role-related stuff is pretty compelling from what I can see unless JSU is scum too, and even then the Night 1 result raises ???'s. Please do not hesitate to correct me if I've got something wrong or am missing something obvious though, because I am actually struggling to follow one thought on from another in my head right now.

Next, I'm looking at Cupcake:

Spoiler: Cupcake

Regarding the role itself, as I've mentioned I think it's certainly possible that Cupcake is scum. I was going to say 'scum making up the delay' here, but my brain is telling me right now that Cupcake could even be a scum delayer that targeted AP. I'm not sure if that's actually plausible at all, but I'm taking too long with this already so moving on!
As I've said, Cupcake-scum is pretty not safe imo with the gamestate as it has been. Lurk2victory worked with Mastin around, but as I mentioned I really don't see how he would have continued to escape everyone's notice, and I don't think Cupcake-scum would have thought so either. The thing is that the claim isn't even a certain death sentence for Cupcake-scum, as there are town explanations for it even with AP-town, and I believe he could have been fairly confident of an AP lynch given the reasonable suspicion on him before the JSU/CF claims. So no, I don't think scum-cupcake would not do this.

But the big question is, could Cupcake be town here? And just based on roles, I definitely think so. I'll clarify slightly that our role pretty strongly suggests that there are

at least

two roles that can roleblock but I think there's decent reason to not say anything more about that until later. So do I believe Cupcake could have been roleblocked? Yes, I do, but Ceph and I both think that the play from Cupcake itself, particularly relating to the claim, is scummy (although perhaps for different reasons) and I will explain my thoughts here.

The reason why I was interested in cupcake the previous day was the nature of his lurking. He was able to post at semi-regular intervals, but never actually seemed bothered by the fact that he wasn't doing anything, didn't seem to make any attempt to do more than nothing, and wasn't replacing out (which he did in the game I saw Katsuki-town). This made me think this kind of thing was more likely from scum who either had trouble keeping with the game because lolscum, or scum deliberately going for that style of play (which actually fit when people were saying it was Katsuki-town meta). While I still think I could be right about this, I think the things relating to the claim are stronger.

-First, Cupcake pushing forward on AP despite JSU's claim doesn't make sense. JSU is both saying that AP's alignment is town, and that he wasn't delayed. Therefore from Cupcake-town's PoV it should make much more sense to want to lynch JSU, or at the very least express interest in this and work out if it's possible, because JSU-town ----> AP-town, but it's not necessarily the case the other way around. But no, Cupcake relentlessly pushes on AP with no apparent consideration of this (or anything else in fact) at all!

-There's also 5521 which I just really disagree with and suspect that Cupcake doesn't actually believe it either, because it's not like Cupcake was a super popular strong townread.

-And finally the fact that there are many people that are just a lot more likely to be town than Cupcake.

Now JSU (because of the relevance to AP's claim) and I think that will be it for tonight. I'll probably stop early, but I'll get at least some of it done.

Spoiler: JSU

This will be less role-related and more general. My general impression is that everything points to town except the beginning of Day 3 where I had a problem with a lot of their posts, but I'm starting to think that my mood might have affected things there. We'll see. Also will be going in reverse.

His role claim alone seems possible from scum with AP. Claiming it with AP-town doesn't seem impossible, but it would be odd considering they probably would have had a decent chance at mislynching AP otherwise. Cupcake-scum makes this even less likely so I might actually discount them being scum together (or at least make this a low priority consideration).

Ok, so I still think the vote on us in 5261 is pretty stupid. It feels like going for the easier lynch just because the reasoning doesn't make sense, and I still feel the same about the lead-up to suspicion on us in 5246.

And yeah that's it for tonight.

[The Fox and the Hound]

-I think that two players reported being blocked. I don't suspect either of these players nor townread either of these players because of their report. Is there a reason why you think it's important?

And you think there could be 3 (or possibly more if cupcakepanda is town) blocking roles?

Why are you using degree of attention to read me?

There are two of you. Since maybe mid-late day 1 neither of you have been much of a presence in the game. Your catch ups have been forgettable and often lacking questions or opinions about significant game events. Like today.

-I think it's possible, yes. I really don't think the number of blocking roles was important until Cupcake's alignment pretty much relied on it, and I still don't understand why you seem to have.

-That's not a good answer.

[The Fox and the Hound]

I think this might be really dickish of me, but

Unvote: CupcakePanda

I would prefer not to have Cupcake lynched yet if I'm allowed to ask for anything at all.

If Ceph wants the vote back, then it's all his. I don't want to get in his way again.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

-I think that two players reported being blocked. I don't suspect either of these players nor townread either of these players because of their report. Is there a reason why you think it's important?

And you think there could be 3 (or possibly more if cupcakepanda is town) blocking roles?

Why are you using degree of attention to read me?

There are two of you. Since maybe mid-late day 1 neither of you have been much of a presence in the game. Your catch ups have been forgettable and often lacking questions or opinions about significant game events. Like today.

-I think it's possible, yes. I really don't think the number of blocking roles was important until Cupcake's alignment pretty much relied on it, and I still don't understand why you seem to have.

-That's not a good answer.

What should I be using to read you?

[The Fox and the Hound]

I don't know to be honest, but I know at the very least that such a description has applied to town-me in games where you have suspected me (and perhaps you even suspected me for those very reasons? I don't remember), so the fact that you're using them here is odd indeed.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

I am terrible at reading you and I won't argue that. I actually got through NY 172 without developing a read on you at all and maybe that's the best I can do - read everyone else and then apply PoE.

Which is pretty much what I've done in this game.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Why not just say it's PoE then? Why the need to add on something that is certainly not alignment-relevant to me and probably not very alignment-relevant for others either?

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Why not just say it's PoE then? Why the need to add on something that is certainly not alignment-relevant to me and probably not very alignment-relevant for others either?

Because your play bothers me, and I'm not sure it's alignment neutral. And my concern that when you do catch up in this game the stuff you have mostly focused on (prior to the last 12 hours or so) has seemed pretty low on opinions about some of the major knots that have developed.

I don't recall ever making this observation about you in our prior games, so I'm not sure why you feel so strongly that I shouldn't be concerned about it.

[The Fox and the Hound]

And my concern that when you do catch up in this game the stuff you have mostly focused on (prior to the last 12 hours or so) has seemed pretty low on opinions about some of the major knots that have developed.

I agree that this is different from the lack of attention and being forgettable (I do feel like you're sidestepping my suspicion that you wouldn't actually be using those reasons as town though), but the main reason I've been confused about this is that the questions you went out of your way to ask me (about the roleblockers and Magenta asking for flavour claim) just weren't things I felt were worth commenting on and I don't understand why this would be something I'd do as scum. I don't know what other things you might be referring to, but I think I've made it pretty clear that my catch-ups were at least to supposed to be quick so I could decide what I really think in my reading of ISOs.

[The Fox and the Hound]

6078 says that it's

lack of presence, forgettable catch-ups

& lack of opinion on game events

6084 says that it's pretty much just PoE

6086 says that it's lack of opinion on game events

It seems that with each question I've asked, you've changed your answer to neatly counter my question, and my particular problem is the convenient disappearance of the bolded.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

And my concern that when you do catch up in this game the stuff you have mostly focused on (prior to the last 12 hours or so) has seemed pretty low on opinions about some of the major knots that have developed.

I agree that this is different from the lack of attention and being forgettable (I do feel like you're sidestepping my suspicion that you wouldn't actually be using those reasons as town though), but the main reason I've been confused about this is that the questions you went out of your way to ask me (about the roleblockers and Magenta asking for flavour claim) just weren't things I felt were worth commenting on and I don't understand why this would be something I'd do as scum. I don't know what other things you might be referring to, but I think I've made it pretty clear that my catch-ups were at least to supposed to be quick so I could decide what I really think in my reading of ISOs.

I picked two things that caught my eye because of the current overall gamestate and because I have felt like they are representative of the sorts of posts/events that had gotten little discussion due to all the focus on the early day 3 exchanges between CF and Titan. I feel like the huge arguments and walls - not just between CF and Titan, but day after day - RBD, Mastin, AP - the focus is always on the noise. And I feel like that has been to the advantage of scum.

And I feel like that's where your activities have mostly been, when you've been active at all. Hidden in the noise.

And I have no idea why town-you would have such a suspicion about my approach to you this game. I am not making some of the mistakes I made in prior games, such as the Song uPick where I hyperfocused on one or two posts that struck me as odd and kept worrying at them.

And as town, I absolutely am using these reasons.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

6078 says that it's

lack of presence, forgettable catch-ups

& lack of opinion on game events

6084 says that it's pretty much just PoE

6086 says that it's lack of opinion on game events

It seems that with each question I've asked, you've changed your answer to neatly counter my question, and my particular problem is the convenient disappearance of the bolded.

No, they're all related. If I could come up with a 4-5 word description that gets to the heart of what has bothered me enough that you aren't anywhere near the top of my list of players I think are town any more, I'd spit it out.

Keep in mind - I thought Ceph had towntold beyond any shadow of a doubt on day 1. And it happened while you both were active and engaged and sorting stuff. That sense that you had become obvtown has faded to grey since then because you haven't been engaged.

I like that you're putting more thought into the game now, though. I don't think my reads list order would change a lot if I were putting it together today. I still can't see you as probable-town, but I doubt I would have put the same description down.

[The Fox and the Hound]

And I have no idea why town-you would have such a suspicion about my approach to you this game.

It's because in Song Contest, I ended up having absolutely no presence to the point where I had no idea what was going on and almost wanted to be lynched.

My presence was also very low for a lot of Doctor Who iirc.

This is why I don't understand why presence/forgettable posts is a factor at all.

So I kind of don't believe that you would have no idea when:

1. I have said that I often have low presence as town
2. You have played with me-town in 2 of said games
3. I have kind of already explained that this is my problem?

I don't really care about the commenting on game events thing. Obviously I didn't have anything to say that I... well... didn't say, but my problem is with the low presence thing and I think this should be pretty understandable!

PEdit: The description was accurate, that's fine. You thinking us not-town/scum, although obviously not great, is fine. You making it out like lack of presence has something to do with our alignment when it doesn't. That's not.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

And I have no idea why town-you would have such a suspicion about my approach to you this game.

It's because in Song Contest, I ended up having absolutely no presence to the point where I had no idea what was going on and almost wanted to be lynched.

My presence was also very low for a lot of Doctor Who iirc.

This is why I don't understand why presence/forgettable posts is a factor at all.

So I kind of don't believe that you would have no idea when:

1. I have said that I often have low presence as town
2. You have played with me-town in 2 of said games
3. I have kind of already explained that this is my problem?

I don't really care about the commenting on game events thing. Obviously I didn't have anything to say that I... well... didn't say, but my problem is with the low presence thing and I think this should be pretty understandable!

PEdit: The description was accurate, that's fine. You thinking us not-town/scum, although obviously not great, is fine. You making it out like lack of presence has something to do with our alignment when it doesn't. That's not.

Why should it be understandable?

From a gamestate perspective, your picking me to engage as a suspect here looks strange, but maybe it's because I'm here to reply to you and nobody else is active right now.

[The Fox and the Hound]

Why should it be understandable?

From a gamestate perspective, your picking me to engage as a suspect here looks strange, but maybe it's because I'm here to reply to you and nobody else is active right now.

???

Ffery plays with DV in game. DV has low presence and engagement for much of it and is mislynched.

Ffery plays with DV in another game. DV starts off ok, but ends up having no presence or engagement and is mislynched.

Ffery plays with DV in another game! Says that she doesn't read DV as town, citing lack of presence and engagement as things she doesn't like.

HMMMMM. Something's up here!

And that's a nice way of saying that I'm scum.

[Breakfast With Sandy]

Why should it be understandable?

From a gamestate perspective, your picking me to engage as a suspect here looks strange, but maybe it's because I'm here to reply to you and nobody else is active right now.

???

Because at the moment I'm in an unassailable town position - role corroborated and a claimed cop innocent on me with a tracker backing up that some sort of night action actually happened. My shelf life is short unless something massive happens to the game state, which I don't expect.

Ffery plays with DV in game. DV has low presence and engagement for much of it and is mislynched.

Ffery was dead long before you were mislynched and that had nothing to do with her read (mostly Syr's read) of you in that game.

Ffery plays with DV in another game. DV starts off ok, but ends up having no presence or engagement and is mislynched.

A mislynch FFery wasn't in on, iirc. My head was mostly trying to sort the star-crosssed lovers situation for the latter half of that game.

Ffery plays with DV in another game! Says that she doesn't read DV as town, citing lack of presence and engagement as things she doesn't like.

ffery's read is based on TWO players' activity in your slot.

It's not just you with the low activity and lack of engagement. If you were playing solo, I don't think I'd have the same concerns, or at least not to the same degree.

HMMMMM. Something's up here!

And that's a nice way of saying that I'm scum.

I think you could be, yes.

[Just Sheep Us]

So yeah I get that I'm being bad, but what does that have to do with reading me? Considering you've actually argued in previous games that, if anything, more posts = scum DV, I don't get it. And it's not like I haven't provided enough posts for someone to get a read on me.

why did you tell everyone to be cruel and shit if you didn't come through on your promise to ~~changeeeee~~ if this was how you were going to react the first time someone followed your advice?

[Just Sheep Us]

No, just don't want to give you the chance to manipulate people in neighborhoods.

he's confirmed town.

[The Fox and the Hound]

ffery's read is based on TWO players' activity in your slot.

It's not just you with the low activity and lack of engagement. If you were playing solo, I don't think I'd have the same concerns, or at least not to the same degree.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, a similar argument does apply to me, and I would think she'd have noticed that pattern by now as well. We /are/ trying to get back in the swing of things here though.
-Ceph

[The Fox and the Hound]

Why should it be understandable?

From a gamestate perspective, your picking me to engage as a suspect here looks strange, but maybe it's because I'm here to reply to you and nobody else is active right now.

???

Because at the moment I'm in an unassailable town position - role corroborated and a claimed cop innocent on me with a tracker backing up that some sort of night action actually happened. My shelf life is short unless something massive happens to the game state, which I don't expect.

This is fair, though I don't know whether DV is fully caught up enough to have seen that yet? Maybe he is? I didn't mention it to him or anything.

Ffery plays with DV in game. DV has low presence and engagement for much of it and is mislynched.

Ffery was dead long before you were mislynched and that had nothing to do with her read (mostly Syr's read) of you in that game.

Ffery plays with DV in another game. DV starts off ok, but ends up having no presence or engagement and is mislynched.

A mislynch FFery wasn't in on, iirc. My head was mostly trying to sort the star-crosssed lovers situation for the latter half of that game.

I don't feel like these caveats should actually change anything?

[The Fox and the Hound]

That spoiler: Cupcake is actually worth reading, I dunno why you'd tell people to skip that DV~