Inorganic Chemistry [GAME OVER, SCUM WIN]

[mastin2]

LC has been a POE-scumread for a while now.

@nacho, mastin
This doesn't jive with 'maybe a lurker, but lets give them some more time.'

Well I have a scumread on Wicked, so no argument here!

/117. (I meant to type ONTO 117 last time. This is finishing it.)

[Sonic Boom]

It's really just PoE for me LC. Half the game is lurking, and I feel like we need a lynch of someone who's had actual substance and content. Out of those who have substance and content who I don't have firmly as town, there's yourself and flubber. It really has very little to do with making a case against you, or anything like that.

Also, you're not obvtown.

LC is obvtown. You're just scum trying to mislynch stuff.

Also how do the gears in your head turn? You seem that half the players are lurking so you decide to lynch someone that posts so that now 2/3 of the players will be lurking. Very pro-town logic. Town apathy wins games.

You also said in the beginning you hate lurkers. That's how you motivated your flames vote.

Also we aren't anywhere near LyLo. We still have time to push some lurkers yet you decide that LC is a great wagon.

Can you be more transparent as scum?

Golden post. If Cerb wasn't going to be checked, I'd be adding him to the lynchable list.

Cop inventor, please do not give the cop to a lurker on my list or TSO (who could be scum).

[mastin2]

Ahh yes, I remember you defending him quite clearly since the start.

I didn't say since the start.

I said ever since D1.

And that's true.
Every post that you selectively did NOT quote was me defending him. Even as he was that far down in the readslist pretty much, he was not my focus. Quite the opposite in fact.

Who cares about following a chain.

Oh, you know, just about THE ENTIRE TOWN who agreed to the plan yesterday?

/118.

[mastin2]

I miss your old avatar Ika.

Eh, I find his current avatar appropriate.

lc: if mastin is town shouldn't there be other town tells than the one secret tell you could use to explain that they're town to us?

Sure thing!

I'm not LC, but I can give you this.

Here, for your reading pleasure, might as well quote this.

I think everyone should make one of these. Especially mastin.

Actually...I have.

I've been meaning to post it, too. It's about a year out of date, though, but I started compiling a way around Mafia with the Quickness 2 called, "How to read Mastin: the flowchart".

Spoiler: Stuff about it

The flowchart, while half a year old in its latest version, still applies more than it doesn't, by the way.
I'll condense it down for you, though:
If Mastin is scum, accept the loss; she's going to win regardless of what you do. So treat her like town.
If Mastin is town, then she is town. Treat her as town. If she wants to be listened to, listen to her and trust her instincts. If she doesn't tell you to listen to her, take her words with a grain of salt; they're reads but not solid ones.
BAM.
You now know how to treat Mastin.
Will work out for you nearly every single game.

Summary. I think I realized my problem with Mastin. Her reads are changing very quickly and they're moving on a very, very wide scale.

Helpful hint, you have absolutely no reason to trust me on this right now, but this is a MASSIVE towntell for me. On the "how to read Mastin: the flowchart" I made (I need to track down the most up-to-date version), it's one of the primary items, in fact. The reason? Town Mastin doesn't have a clue what's going on. Her reads are in a state of constant flux, specifically because of that, and her own self-doubt, paranoia, and whatnot betrays her, as she constantly second-guesses herself and reevaluates, rethinks, and redoes stuff. In contrast, scuMastin has absolute control of the game. Whereas town-Mastin is defined by inconsistency, scuMastin is defined by consistent, solid, controlled, calculated play. She keeps the same reads as much as possible, because it serves to antagonize the least number of players. She is calm, collected, and cool. She is strategic. She is focused. Her thoughts are logical and precise, because she has a good handle on the game, and thus, her mind does not betray her.

Or in short, the difference between town and scum is the difference between chaos and order. Now, obviously, this isn't absolute. There have been towngames where I've felt in control, rare as they may be. There have been scumgames where I was chaotic, either by circumstances or in one or two cases me faking my town chaos convincingly. But it IS a fairly solid general guideline. I know what I'm doing as scum; I'm just taking my best guess and throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks as town.

I bet she has quite a few "playstyles" (and she knows, I think, why I'm saying this.)

Indeed I do. Fairly certain I said so already in this game, too, the reason why: because my play in games is fluid, thanks to situational awareness. While I might not know what's going on as town, I can generally feel out the game and have an idea for what will work best, adapting to have a playstyle specific to that game. It's mildly helpful, since it lets me hone in on scum better, but situational awareness mostly helps me as scum, because as scum, adapting my play to the game when I have more info than my town self does is

lethally

effective.

Though that does remind me, I need a point in there about focusing on scumhunting.

I find her posts coming from a mostly town point of view and she has a genuine interest in finding scum.

Right, that's another one I need to add in.

How To Read Mastin

:

Are you zMuffinman?

Yes-->Screw tells, you know mastin's alignment instantly.
No-->

Are you AngryPidgeon?

Yes-->Screw tells, you know mastin's alignment instantly.
No-->

Are you a player who has hydraed or has otherwise worked well with Mastin?

Yes-->You likely don't need the chart, but because you're not that familiar with her, you should probably go through it anyway as a precaution.
No-->You REALLY need to go through the chart; proceed! But fair warning in advance that it's only about 90% accurate.

Is/Are zMuffinman/AP in the game?

Yes-->Sheep them on their read! Never doubt it.
No-->Think like them and continue on.

THE FLOWCHART:

Is it D1?
Yes-->...And you're suspicious of Mastin?!?
She's town.
No-->Is it D2? Yes-->She's prob-town.
No-->Is it D3 or later? Yes-->Proceed.

Does Mastin look town?

No-->She's town.
Yes-->Proceed to next step.

Trust her as town.

What does she do?

Get paranoid of you-->She's town.
Enthusiastically work with you-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Nothing-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Milk your townread and bully you-->Proceed.

Suddenly pressure her.

What does she do?

Freak out-->She's town.
Show concern, but subdued-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Brush it off-->Proceed.

Is she posting up a storm?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she gloating how good her scumgame is?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Does Mastin have delusions of grandeur?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she waffling...
...A lot?

Yes-->She's town.
Sorta?-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Does she look like she's trying to leave a legacy?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she antagonizing everyone?

Yes-->She's town.
No-->Proceed.

Has Mastin rambled at all on MD theory?

Yes-->She's town.
No-->Proceed.

Is Mastin making a case for why she could be scum?
Yes-->She's town.
Kinda?-->Prob-town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is Mastin making very strong reasons why she's town?
No-->She's town.
Kinda-->Prob-town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Yes-->Proceed.

If applicable, did she 'crumb her role and/or claim it openly and immediately?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Do the circumstances behind her play and/or claim look town?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she irrational?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is she spewing random illogical theories?

Yes-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Does her posting look intentional?

No-->She's town.
Yes-->Proceed.

Is she spontaneous, random, and/or whimsical?

Yes-->She's town.
Maybe?-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
No-->Proceed.

Is her tone flat?

No-->probably town, but proceed anyway as a precaution.
Yes-->Proceed.

(BONUS:

If Mastin is behind, does she demonstrate knowledge of the

current

gamestate she could not reasonably have at her supposed point of reference?

No-->She's town.
It's hard to say...-->She probably does know, but not much, having likely skimmed offline, not logged in, and chose not to get the full context to spoiler her as probable-town.
Yes-->Proceed.)

And finally...

Is there minimal resistance to lynching her?

Yes-->She's town; defend her!
...Maybe?-->You've gotten this far and the best you've got is a "maybe"?!? You dummy, run through it again! (But she's probably town anyway.)-->All other factors equal, if you're having this much trouble reading Mastin, just freakin' assume she's town. (She likely is, anyway.)-->FOR THE LOVE OF GODS, SHE'S TOWN, DANG IT.
No-->She's probably scum...but you should run through the flowchart one more time just to be sure, as a precaution.

Is Mastin's posting wildly inconsistent?
Yes-->She's town.
Maybe?-->Probably town, but proceed anyway.
No-->Proceed.)

(Oh, and I think rambling in-thread's already there*, but if not, it should be.)
*Relies on scum having daychat. Scum have daychat, in-thread rambling = decent towntell. Scum don't have daychat, rambling = prob-null, maybe slight townlean. Scum daychat ambiguous, assume slight townlean.

(Oh, should be noted. Last scum, rambling in-thread gets upgraded to major towntell, since scuMastin typically keeps rambles to the scum QT about why she's screwed.)

Totally should just, in general, take this policy about me.
There's a flowchart that I plan to publish that will give better tells for reading me in general, some of which are timeless, others which are in contemporary site meta, but valuable all the same. Until it's actually published, though, the general policy I have on reading me is, increasingly, becoming:

Just assume I'm town until you have a REALLY solid reason not to. You'll be right the VAST majority of the time, by sheer probability alone.

(In fact, beyond probability. Probability says I should be scum a minimum of 25% of the time. 2014's been something like half that overall.)

It'll save you a BUNDLELOADS of headaches.

(Should be noted that my record was 34 games IN A ROW as town and my scumgame remains STILL below statistical probability in numbers.)

"If you're townreading Mastin, lynch her. She's scum, having successfully predicted your movements and is manipulating you. You fell into her trap, hook, line, and sinker.
If you're scumreading Mastin, she's town; save her from the lynch. She's probably either really onto something or really lost. In either case, she needs your help, either to sheep her or help her develop more accurate reads."

Some of them are out of date thanks to contextual meta shifts, but most of them still apply.

(Note of course that the flowchart is never 100% accurate. It's impossible, literally impossible, to display all of them in a single game since many of them are in fact slightly contradictory, but the point is to see as many as possible and if the majority matches town or scum. This chart has been in play for quite a while, now, and to this date, in spite of no active attempts to uphold it and some attempts as scum to subvert it, remains highly relevant to my play. It goes to prove my point, though: scuMastin always has this laser-like focus. Anything Goes in particular, until I faked having my confidence shattered, I was pushing for a specific lynch. In games like Resistance where I was the last living scum in lylo, I wove a narrative specific to one player being scum because I held focus. In my entire scumgame career, holding focus has done nothing but serve me well. Losing focus has done nothing but screw me over. Because guess what? People like focus. They like confidence. They love to see assurance in a read. They want to have a figure be charismatic and to follow. It's an inherent part of people's nature. That's why tunneling is so prevalent, because it works DAMN good and well to get a lynch. People hate doubt. When someone is calling everyone town/scum in rapid circles, AKA circlejerking, people think it's scum trying to mislynch anyone. They see desperation and attribute it to being scum. They don't see a town player desperately trying to figure out the game. They see a scum player that is trying to find options. So damn fucking straight. Maybe someday I'll flail as scum. It could in theory be this game. But in practice? Fuck no. As scum I'd push a lynch through; as town, here I am without a clue.)

(I really need to also add a section in there about explicitly blowing up. I don't think I've ever thrown f-bombs around as scum freely, aside from some trolling in L4D when I literally claimed scum in-thread once I realized Molla had a guilty on me. As town, you'll note, I go absolutely ballistic, and for damn fucking good reason. Lynching me has never done a town favors, ESPECIALLY not in the lategame.)

I still don't see the reasonng behind the commuter being town

Aside from me saying so, there's the fact that the commuter hilariously overpowers the scumteam, yet a town withOUT the commuter is hilariously UNDERPOWERED, ergo, the commuter is town.

[mastin2]

VOTE: Ari
Yeah, Kari's not on the lynchable list.

[Shakira Confirmed]

I didn't read your flow chart. Does it say you are town?

[Shakira Confirmed]

Are you still saying Mac is 100% town? Now might be a good idea to say why if he is.

[Shakira Confirmed]

I'll switch to Kari if you give me a good reason why Mac was 100% town.

[Sonic Boom]

Wow, let's avoid the guy who has a 100% meta for lurking as scum (ika), the guy who had two towns push on him early but cannot get a wagon to take off and is lurking, or why don't we vote an obvious scum counter to those two (Kari).

[Nachomamma8]

Wow, let's avoid the guy who has a 100% meta for lurking as scum (ika), the guy who had two towns push on him early but cannot get a wagon to take off and is lurking, or why don't we vote an obvious scum counter to those two (Kari).

Ika has posted more in this game than every other one of his scumgames. He seems like a pretty stupid vote.

[Nachomamma8]

It's not really cool posting gross misrepresentations of wagons to get them to seem better/worse than they are, it's a lazy way to push a lynch.

[ika]

i liek how im called out as lurking when im one of the higher posters in this game

[Cerberus v666]

I at least felt like Macs early posts were very town, especially the early exchange between you, SC, and him, in regards to his opening vote and his sarcasm about "bussing" you. I understand the scum motivation you thought you saw there, and we had this conversation earlier, but I didn't see any thing suspicious in any of that, and it all felt far more nonchalant than such play would have been coming from scum. It was casual, not calculated.

The rest of his posts up until he stoppped being active also seemed pretty interested in conversation and moving the game forward, probing people about their thoughts on things and why they had those thoughts and offering his opinions. In short, the Mac portion of that slots ISO feels really town to me, and he would probably be in the higher half of my reads list, near Jaqen,if not for the general lack of content since the early game.

Ika: Let's not get too caught up in the ika is scum because he's not posting enough thing. What are your thoughts on the current situation? Do you have a preferred lynch? Did you ever weigh in on the FtC plan, and who would you investigate if you received the weak cop tonight? Why?

I feel like talking today. Some of the external servers I have to access at work are extremely slow, so I'm in for a lot of downtime that I can't do anything about. let's put some work in. SC/SB, talk to me.

[Sonic Boom]

Wow, let's avoid the guy who has a 100% meta for lurking as scum (ika), the guy who had two towns push on him early but cannot get a wagon to take off and is lurking, or why don't we vote an obvious scum counter to those two (Kari).

Ika has posted more in this game than every other one of his scumgames. He seems like a pretty stupid vote.

None of it is useful. It's still active lurking.

[Sonic Boom]

I at least felt like Macs early posts were very town, especially the early exchange between you, SC, and him, in regards to his opening vote and his sarcasm about "bussing" you. I understand the scum motivation you thought you saw there, and we had this conversation earlier, but I didn't see any thing suspicious in any of that, and it all felt far more nonchalant than such play would have been coming from scum. It was casual, not calculated.

The rest of his posts up until he stoppped being active also seemed pretty interested in conversation and moving the game forward, probing people about their thoughts on things and why they had those thoughts and offering his opinions. In short, the Mac portion of that slots ISO feels really town to me, and he would probably be in the higher half of my reads list, near Jaqen,if not for the general lack of content since the early game.

Ika: Let's not get too caught up in the ika is scum because he's not posting enough thing. What are your thoughts on the current situation? Do you have a preferred lynch? Did you ever weigh in on the FtC plan, and who would you investigate if you received the weak cop tonight? Why?

I feel like talking today. Some of the external servers I have to access at work are extremely slow, so I'm in for a lot of downtime that I can't do anything about. let's put some work in. SC/SB, talk to me.

I'd discuss with Sonic who we'd investigate, but I'm leaning more towards resolving whether Jaquen is dumb or scum at the moment. Neither of us think a strong townread is warranted there.

Really, my preferred lynch in one of the four that I posted earlier plus maybe TSO. Nothing's changed but the town gleefully jumping on counterwagons and scum lurking this out.

~Titus

[Cerberus v666]

Also, I'm going to repeat this, because it seems it was ignored: my desire to lynch lurkers early game is driven by the fact that said lurkers will not offer any more information to town if lynched later than they will if lynched early, AND they are easy mislynches late. if you find a scum lurker, and you lynch them D1, you get the same information as you would if you lynched them D5. If you find active scum and lynch them D5, the pool of information you can draw from that lynch only gets bigger as the game goes on. Since D1 is a crapshoot anyways in my mind, might as well eliminate someone who isn't going to be participating anyways.

I'm not really sure which head of Sonic Boom is wasting their time supporting vezoks paranoia and misinterpretation of my words, but try to read my response to an accusation before you just go quoting it and agreeing with it. At least then you can quote me and tell me what it is about my response that doesn't fit to you.

Mastin: your setup spec could be wrong, stop it. You don't know enough about the setup to know if town would be underpowered or overpowered in the presence/absence of the commuter. You don't even know the alignment of any of the inventors. You're spitting out theories, which is what everyone else is doing, sure, but you're starting from uncertain premises. That leads to fuck ups. WDPT - the endgame went terribly because when you and your other hydra heads in that game actually start participating in MYLO(which was really LYLO), you didn't even bother reevaluating everything in light of the new information you had that indicated your previous setup spec was completely fucking wrong. Don't do this again, work from the world you know, the world as it is, not the world as you imagine it is.

p-edit: Oh, since this still hasn't been actually answered, and now i'm hearing from you, Titus, are you over the whole chain plan now?

[Sonic Boom]

I am not over the chain plan, hence why I have no intent to vote you and said so.

[Cerberus v666]

I am not over the chain plan, hence why I have no intent to vote you and said so.

Yes, but in your last post you said you were leaning towards resolving whether Jaqen was dumb or scum, and your vote currently isn't on him. The only other "resolution" I could imagine you meant was an investigation, but if I was wrong and you meant something else, would you mind explaining it to me?

I feel Jaqen is town because he's being obstinate about something which is definitely a very good plan the majority of the time. I even address the main concern he has with it, of the creation of false results through redirection by reiterating that we just have to ensure we don't let the game get to LYLO with nobody in the chain dead, and he still insists on fighting against it. That reads as stubborn town to me, not scum trying to derails a game breaking plan.

[Shakira Confirmed]

I'm in class right now (Economics. Fun stuff) so I can't do much talking.
What's your read on Aristophanes, assuming Mac was never in the picture?

[Shakira Confirmed]

Apparently this one company put cheep addicting stuff in their mustard so it would sell better. Smart stuff.

[Cerberus v666]

I'm in class right now (Economics. Fun stuff) so I can't do much talking.
What's your read on Aristophanes, assuming Mac was never in the picture?

If mac was never in the picture he'd be null to nullscum. Promises to catch up, and supposedly does, but doesn't actually post any analysis. Doesn't seem to be doing any real scumhunting, just parroting peoples opinions and asking them why they have those options(which he only did once, with no actual followup, and complains about naked votes.

[Cerberus v666]

It's just that there's so *little* that he says, and nothing is actually scummy, that keeps him from being actual scum on the merits of aristophanes play alone.

[Nachomamma8]

Like you made this assumption out of nowhere and just sort of ran with it.

When is this one planning to drop the school marm role and star finding scum instead of pointing out what's wrong with others' technique?

It's logic and thought processes I'm picking at, not techniques.

Although I always did fancy myself a sexy school marm.

[Wickedestjr]

I think we should give Ika a little more time.

Let's not lynch him today. Tomorrow, we can discuss it.
-Flum

Yet you're voting Aristo...

[Wickedestjr]

If I understand you correct(and please, tell me if I'm wrong), the primary source of your suspicion is because you believe flubber is scum, and you find it telling that I have been suspicious of flubber all game, but have never voted for him, correct?

It’s actually more because of Flubber’s vote for you. I can accept your explanation for not having voted for him. Your current vote is interesting to me, though. Why are you voting him now?

With that said, my pool was flubber, LC, and kari. Of those who are inactive, kari is the lurker slot I find the least likely to be town.

Why aren’t you voting Kari?