Mini 1701 - Modified Werewolf 13er

[Haschel Cedricson]

For starters, there can be mechanic-based ones, although those obviously don't apply in an open setup like this. More importantly, though, is as part of a gambit of some sort, particularly one designed to get reactions from people. Look at Boonskiies's interactions with Absta immediately afterwards; Boonskiies had a plan and knew exactly what he was doing.

Now, can you finally stop stalling and dodging my question and tell me what the "obvious reasons" you voted for Boonskiies are?

[Banakai]

Well I really don't have much to say about boon except what has already been said by me and others, but he appears to be buddying with bbt and with a poor excuse for it too. Also looking at his ISO his last 6 posts were purely defensive and not even the logical kind.

Just about this. To be honest everything has already been said and I dont feel the need to go over every one of his posts. I already have said generally why I think he is scum.

[Haschel Cedricson]

No! No you have not! You are underestimating the number of fucks I give about why you generally think he's scum. I want to know SPECIFICALLY why you think he's scum. If your reasons are so "obvious", then surely you can find ONE GODDAMN EXAMPLE to bolster your argument. You say his reads shifted too quickly. WHICH ONES?

[Shinobi]

Vote Count

Boonskiies

(4):

absta101, Banakai, Tony Montana, Kmd4390

absta101

(3):

Zoronos, Boonskiies, redff

Banakai

(2):

Haschel Cedricson, Red Coyote

Tony Montana

(1):

BlueBloodedToffee

BlueBloodedToffee

(1):

Doctor Who

Not Voting

(2):

Bulbazoor, Keyser Söze

With 13 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Deadline

: (expired on 2015-08-07 13:30:00)

Note

: Tony Montana has been prodded.

[redFF]

i still like the absta wagon, but i could really dig a BTT one

[redFF]

BBT

[redFF]

i like dr whos posts i realize i had a scum read and vote on woody but i also said he could be scrub over defensive town, and he did replace out for a really dumb reason, so yeah i like doctor who's posts at the moment

vote:bluebloodedtoffee

i think boonskies is probably town and really annoying people making them think he is scum, especially because he has scumread absta and sus lurker tony montana. but he might just post like that all the time, gonna read him

[Haschel Cedricson]

Can you show me where you think I am strawmanning (I'm not even sure I fully understand this term) and misrepping other people.

Alright.

In 55, he 'didn't notice' a wagon had formed. This would imply that he had been reading but missed the wagon forming.

In 63, he claims again that he didn't see the wagon. Again, this implies that he had read the whole game and had simply missed the votes accumulating on Haschel. Although, the section attached at the end implies that he had not gone back to read the thread, the start of his change in stance and to the reasoning he chooses to stay with.

Woody: I didn't notice a wagon had formed, because I didn't read the page where most of the votes were cast.
BBT: Aha! You say you didn't notice a wagon had formed! That implies you DID read that page!

Then in 73, he claims that he didn't go back and read the thread and this is the story he tries to stay with. His reasoning for ignoring the Haschel wagon very subtly changes and it changes to something that he claims he does all the time.

Woody: I didn't go back and read the thread.
BBT: Aha! Now you say you didn't read the thread! This contradicts earlier, where you claim you didn't read the thread!

Wow, that sure would be damning evidence if Woody had ever claimed that he HAD read the Haschelwagon.

Also, I found this quote in my notes that I forgot to mention earlier:

Quite frankly, if someone either a) doesn't care enough to read the whole thread to gain context or b) quite regularly misses things (convenient play-style for scum, no?) then I don't particularly want them around even if they're town.

This reeks of somebody knowing they are pushing for a mislynch.

On an unrelated note, I misspoke in my last post. Banakai is OVERestimating, not underestimating, the number of fucks I give about his general reasons.

[redFF]

I suck at open setups.

this is weird


but i agree with boonskies on a absta stuff even tho he is obnoxious, and i doubt he's scum cause of the claim and the ott "confirm town" that he's been acting (he's clearly not confirmed town)

[redFF]

quote="In post 340, BlueBloodedToffee"]OK, I'm hoping you can do better than gut soon because we're on page 14 already and I would like to have achieved a lynch in roughly the next 6-8 pages.[/quote]
bbt i don’t know if u answered this and i know it is far back but could u answer why u wanted a lynch 3 real life days into a 14 day in game day. it is weird to me

[redFF]

fuck my bad edbwop

OK, I'm hoping you can do better than gut soon because we're on page 14 already and I would like to have achieved a lynch in roughly the next 6-8 pages.

bbt i don’t know if u answered this and i know it is far back but could u answer why u wanted a lynch 3 real life days into a 14 day in game day. it is weird to me[/quote]

[redFF]

i agree with haschel

[redFF]

ok this is on bbt and goes way way back since im just posting notes just acknowledging that, this is all for bluebloodedtoffee

i didn’t like how overly aggressive he was in rvs and first 2-3 pages, felt forced or like he was trying establish his presence/dominance of discussion. i mean he tries to start 2 wagons in the first 2 pages. (first 5 iso)

the haschel wagon (iso 4-15)
this vote and push has no case, i understand its still early days, but he asks people why they won’t join the wagon, why they didn’t join it earlier, what they thought of the wagon but posts 0 case, you can check his iso. i know he'll bust out an excuse of how it was an early game reaction test but this early play points to a bigger problem.

these questions has been a theme of his posting all game. read his posts and there are so many basic questions, like a child who keeps asking why no matter what you say. it is a forced and vague way to post, scummy.

I’m gonna quote a a few exampes but i feel like many of bit’s posts are vague and easily answered questions, and other general posts that don’t actually feature pro-town play or scum-hunting, such as:

You guys need to slow the fuck down.

BBT, Keyser and Zoro are weak townreads atm.

Reasons?

16 looks LAMIST; he is presuming seriousness instead of thinking about tone / context of the post.

That's actually not a bad observation.

Keyser, are you interested in forming an RC wagon?

Do you not pay attention often?

At any rate,

Unvote

. I want to vote for somebody else, but it's so hard to decide between Keyser and BlueBloodedToffee!

Would this be a serious vote?

@BBT - The fact that he didn't answer why his reads changed so suddenly and the way he tried to make himself look town by using your null read on him. Basically, all of it.

Why do you think scum are more likely to be loose/inconsistent with their reads as opposed to town?

I know what a trust tell is, Boon is not doing that.

Trust tells are punishable by mod-kill, is that what you're trying to achieve?

are a few examples

these posts are essentially designed to look like he is "charging the town forward", '"keeping everyone open and in line" but how much do they do that really, how pro town is it really under the surface? he has been doing this all game.

You guys need to slow the fuck down.

BBT, Keyser and Zoro are weak townreads atm.

Reasons?

this is probably just me but if someone has a town read on me i don’t ask why, i just nod my head and agree because I obviously know why I’m town

he then went hard on the woody wagon, which i did too, so i can’t really say much about that tbh, all i will say is i was wrong about woody too but his posting just reeks of mafia trying to get a lynch on a bad player


this post seems to have a straight contradiction

don't like this post. i know mafia sometimes find rvs stage awkward to blend in. that question didn't need to be asked it was an rvs vote, probably something to do with a previous game or forum encounter, doesn't matter lol.

The timing of this post is scummy. Right after Kmd votes Absta, also knowing that Zoro, RC and myself found 16 scummy, you go back to that very post to try and question it? Why did you do this now?

if u have such a 'devil may care' '0 fucks given' attitude then why are you defending yourself so much

This is a good post.

You say that you don't need to scumhunt within the first hours of the game because you have plenty of time, but you post constantly, showing me that you are trying to be active ?????????????

This is another good post.

Also red ff is town

Can you explain this? The quote below doesn't quite cut it...

Because his posts are a towns posts.

Why are they town posts?

he says one of my posts is a ‘good post’ with no reason and then implies that banakai can’t do the same

i don’t get his rc vote and push, because at that point of the game (post 337) vinkah and tonymontana had provided less content, than red coyote and his vote was based on lurking

can’t decide if his confusion about the open setup means anything

also

I was happy with the current game state and the direction the game was taking.

the wording here is really weird, seems controlling

i just get the sense bbt has some dark motivation behind his posts like he is trying to control and supress the discussion to a degree that a townie should not be doing so yeah there are my reasons

[Keyser Söze]

Can you explain why you initially voted for absta101?

Sure, because I disliked his approach to the Woody wagon. I feel I have made this more than clear.

When you unvoted absta101, did you think absta101-redFF was town vs werewolf or town vs town? If

town vs werewolf

, did you want to put pressure on redFF? Are you now town-reading absta101 based purely on the possibilty of redFF being scum/town?

This flip-flop on absta101 concerns me - plus, the fact you were happy to leave absta101-redFF alone and then re-direct your focus on TonyMontana.

I unvoted because I didn't feel it was likely to be scum vs scum and I felt that redff had a higher chance of being scum than Absta. I would like some time to sort out Absta/redff and am therefore pursuing someone else who I think could be scum.

Yes, you "disliked his approach to the Woody wagon": post 229
However, now that you think he is town-aligned, do you still dislike absta101's approach on WoodyWoodpecker, or do you think he had genuine reasons for concern?

My town-read on you has faded, I am now currently suspicious of a connection between yourself-absta101 vs redFF. I am not going to dwelve into connections without a flip though - and this shouldn't be a reason for me to vote for you. I'd like to hear more about your

'redFF has higher chance of being scum'

theory.

However, I would like to put pressure on TonyMontana - but will hold back on my vote on him for now (I need to express my concerns on his slot).

Kmd4390, my strongest town-read also has me as his strongest town-read I don't know if that makes me confident or paranoid (could be scum trying to buddy up, or we could genuinely be two townies who town-read eachother perfectly).

[Keyser Söze]

To be honest, I got thrown off by Boon, and to some degree Keyser taking up most of the space during my read.
Ive gotten a

town-lean

out of checking back on you, trying to read up on redFF, which I'm not lovin atm.

Can you point to the points which make you have a town-lean on absta101. We've heard your thoughts on Boonskiies' posts, what did you think of my posts during your read (it sounds like you skimmed over them)?

I should probably check myself for wanting Boon dead, if its just for being anti-town, and he certainly seems to have a reputation for it, but

in isolation he looks scum

.

Ok - now I realise why your vote is still on Boonskiies - you still scum-read him (an anti-town werewolf?).

+1 on banakai supposedly discarding a case.

I previously had read it as "was gonna write a case on him" which is bad enough in itself, but claiming to throw out any writings because it seems unnecessary is terrible.

Possible sheeping of BlueBloodedToffee's read. If it is so "terrible" where is your pressure on banakai?

[Banakai]

[quote="In post 326, Boonskiies"]I didn't like Absta's response to some of the questions against her a few pages ago, and something just feels off about Keyser (no, it's not the vote on my slot either, because I am town reading the other two that voted.)[/quote]
089069#p7089069]post 325 [/url], Boonskiies"]Unsure if I want to vote for Absta or Keyser, but that's where I'm headed at the moment.[/quote]

@Kmd

I agree with the second statement. But it doesn't explain the first.
Absta- "scum wouldn't be that active"
Me-"why"
Absta-"scum wouldn't scum hunt"

It doesn't flow the right way. He didn't answer the question. He made a new statement.

Unvote, Vote Absta

I actually feel better about this than BBT.

This doesn't work; I already clarified what I meant by being active in post 123 which was

before

you asked me this question.
--

@Keyser

If you think I am town, aren't you interested in my reads?
If you think I am scum, aren't you interested in my reads?

I am interested in your scum reads mainly. I just don't think we should spend as much time making cases for why someone is town at this stage of the game.

--

I'm quite suspicious of RC at the moment and I want to see more from him.

@RedCoyote

- Why is KS possible scum?

Why is HC town?

I'm most interested in this post, specifically the sections I bolded. I don't like how he doesn't care about town reading people right now, and how he is completely abstaining from the idea of anyone giving out town reads, Speaking of abstaining, I can see it from a town perspective, I just don't like it, so I don't really care to put my vote there because there's already 2 votes.

3 posts saying he thinks absta/keyser is scum and then this posts:

VOTE: Vinkah

This slot feels so uncomfortably awkward. I would use the adjective '

detached

'. Time for pressure.

This just made me actually not scum read the slot anymore. I was doing quick skimming to catch up, and didn't see 'Time for pressure'. Welp, rereading.

Now since keyser noticed vinkah wasn't playing he town reads keyser? Doesn't seem like he had a real scum read.

VOTE: red ff ya I know I called him town

OH! I thought this was a vote on Vink! Hmm, I actually get this vote.

BOONSKIIES COLOR TIER LIST OF SCUM

Banzai guy

Keyser guy

Absta guy

I'll add other things to it later.

He thought I voted the same as keyser (which was enough for keyser to be town), but after he realises it isn't he thinks I'm town. Seems inconsistent. Also now he has keyser listed as neutral, so keyser went from scum to town to neutral. in like 4 posts.

Actually, I don't like 292[/url, or a couple of his posts above.

VOTE: Keyser

Something's off. He's putting a lot of 'pressure' related motives going through, but it looks like scum pushing for something until something sticks.

Now keyser is scum again, and boon th ... 9]post 338, Boonskiies"]Oh, blue is null, pink is null lean scum. Haha, I'll put a color key in next time.

Something just feels off to me about Keyser, and I can't explain it. When I can, I'll be sure to make a case.[/quote]

Something certainly feels off. And we still haven't gotten anything that even resembles a case yet.

Town

-

Lean Town

-

Null Town

-

Null Scum

-

Lean Scum

-

Scum

Boonskiies
BlueBloodedToffee
Banakai
redFF

WoodyWoodpecker

TonyMontana
RedCoyote
Zoronos
Haschel Cedricson

Kmd4390

Bulbazoor
absta101

Keyser Söze

I think this is where I am right now.

The reason BBT is top of the list is because in my experience, I find myself better off just town reading him until I figure out if he's scum. It just makes everything less confusing.

I'm seeing Woody's normal playstyle. I get why there's a wagon on him because of that. I'm going to lean-town on this because I don't really know how to read him.

I have a lot of nulls.

Bulb's being weird...somethings off there.

Absta/Keyser are my main scum reads, but I don't think they are scum together. I do believe one of them is scum, though.

note that now keyser is his ONLY scum read now. Also he has people listed where they shouldn't be. Judging by what he thinks, absta should be scum, BBT should be null or lean town. Also note that he "

Thinks

this is where he is at"

Why is it my pressure (scum hunting) that you associate with scum, and not other player's slots? Is it my attention on a particular slot?

Why Vinkah and not RC?

Answering a question with another question of the same type. Also now he suspects keyser from the very post that he thought keyser was town from.

Don't use the mod's colour, otherwise this slot will be needing replacing yet again

Also, oops. I'll make my town black next time. I actually don't like this. Needing replacement? Trying to get me replaced because I'm onto you? Eh?

Variation of the 'ol bus a buddy...vote a townie...eh? Nice play, scum. The variation I'm inferring to is the push on the RC lurkin'....then put attention onto Tony to end it!

Hmm...curious...you just seem to have ALLLLLLL the right answers....dontcha....-.-

Now he's hard pushing on keyser.

meh, sure. I got nothing. I suck at open setups.

VOTE: RC

And now he sheeps keyser.


But wait: Theres more! He also played hyper defensive the whole game using bullshit arguements

@Keyser - Hey, I'm Boonskiies. I'm THE village idiot of mafia scum, nice to meet you. My Day 1's are horrendous, and I flip flop my reads constantly. To be fair, I had been posting that I thought you were giving out all the right answers, which was supposed to be me teasing sarcasm, but actually meaning it. I just used you to insert myself into the game. I have to interact to feel interested.

I'm just going to say right now, BBT has pretty much caught me out as scum in every scum game I've been in with him. The fact that I'm still null to him should show you that my antics are just Boon being annoying.

Eh. K. I'm kind of just posting.

You guys are just looking for stuff.

Funny how it was my 2 scum reads who are pushing me.

Also look, now he calls keyser a scum read again

I'm going to do whatever the hell I want if it helps me catch scum. I rarely get mislynched.

Then stop pushing at me to respond, simple as that.

I have explained it. If you are too ignorant to understand it, then fine. Not my problem.

It was seriously fucking page 13 when I put the reads. Let it fucking go; it was page 13, they obviously will change easily.

because I would totally put my scum partner as one of my highest town reads without really explaining it.

Lol, I get called idiot town by Woody.

K, whatever. I'm already kinda done with this game. I have absolutely no interest in this game anymore. I replaced in because I like Shinobi as a mod, and I needed another game to play in, but this is kind of ridiculous.

VOTE: Boonskiies

Just a villager.

OH!!!

@Mod - this isn't a trust tell anymore like it was the last time I did it in the game you modded; I've self-voted once as scum, 9 ish times as town.

Why did you self-vote your "town" slot? Do you realise that is anti-town/scummy?

You should ask to be replaced,

not roleclaim

and make a mockery of the game you are leaving.

Eh, I rarely get lynched when I self-vote, so...=/ I'm not leaving the game. I don't replace out.

And I will continue to push for other lynches until I get lynched. You'd be surprised on how obvious scum become after situations like this.

You are so full of shit...

LOLOL. I didn't even see this before that last post.

Mhmm, tell it to the dead thread scum!!!!!!!!!

Who the hell would night kill me? I'm super mislynchable.

I only get nightkilled in games where a good amount of players know me.

You will not find ScumBoon this game.

I don't think he legitimately tried, he was just being annoying, so I decided to be annoying right back.

So when you're town you don't think and plan; when you're scum you think more and plan out your posting - I do not like this trust-tell. It means nothing to me. You could be scum telling us to trust you on this.

Yep. Could be.

Boon for obvious reasons

this is exactly why I'm town. Why the fuck would I be "obvious" as scum? I'm never fucking obvious as scum. my Banakai read is changing.

the only time i'm lynched when I'm town, is when people think I'm "obvious scum".

I'm towny mctown town confirmed motha towna of all that is town.

And, if you need more I can write about how he is buddying with bbt but quoting is annoying

[Bulbazoor]

I suck at open setups.

this is weird


but i agree with boonskies on a absta stuff even tho he is obnoxious, and i doubt he's scum cause of the claim and the ott "confirm town" that he's been acting (he's clearly not confirmed town)

Why is it weird?

[Haschel Cedricson]

I would like everybody in their next post to give their thoughts on Banakai. Multiple sentences are preferred.

[Kmd4390]

It makes him likely to be town because I would expect scum have more sense than to claim VT.

Not everyone thinks this way. Especially newer players.

Show me where I said all three scum were voting for Woody. Woody was still coming across as scummy and I was still happy to push his wagon whilst questioning other people.

Your response that those three players weren't necessarily scum even though you disliked their votes is fair.

I don't get this, according to your reasoning in your reads-list he should be a null read?

I do my best not to have many, if any, null reads even if that means using some POE.

I'm sorry, did I suggest that redff was scum for voting and not realizing it placed Woody at L-1...I don't believe I did. What you're actually doing is using your own reasoning for why you think redff is scum and applying it to me and then thinking that your reasoning somehow contradicts my own reads. It doesn't quite work like that I'm afraid.

He actually has a decent point. Woody doesn't notice votes and you call him scum. Redff misses votes. Shouldn't that concern you by similar logic? Haschel's strawman point is good too

[Keyser Söze]

I have a town-lean read on Bulbazoor so far.

My read on Bulbazoor is now

null

. He has recently been asking many questions but not sharing his thoughts/reads on those questions/answers.

[Haschel Cedricson]

I would like everybody in their next post to give their thoughts on Banakai. Multiple sentences are preferred.

Stuff about BBT.

Stuff about Bulb.

:-/

[Banakai]

I think banakai is a lovely dude with a great personality. He is very attractive. I look up to him and hope to meet him someday.

[Keyser Söze]

@Haschel Cedricson - here are my thoughts about Banakai.

Woody: would you care to explain why you are playing so defensive? As a town usually you just have to accept that one of you are gonna die day 1 probbably, and just try and get as much information as possible even when being voted. I believe you are either scum, or at least very bad at being town. Also your name can be abbreviated to WW which can mean werewolf. Confirmed.

I found Banakai's first post very amusing. It took him 8 pages to make his first contribution. Part-RVS, part-realist, part-analysis all rolled in one. "As a town usually you just have to accept that one of you are gonna die day 1 probbably" I loved that line.

BBT: Do you think there would be any motivation in this game for a scum to tunnel on Woody like you are now?

Failed to wrap my head around this question from Banakai - as both town and scum have motivation to tunnel.

Kind of hard to tell about other

players

since they are mostly spectating and gathering facts, with the exception of

people

who have already taken the side of Woody acting scum-like which I agree with.

"players" / "people" - why is he scared/lazy to name-drop who he's talking about?

I had early problems with him town reading redFF on unknown reasons (I usually associate empty-reads with scum):

Also red ff is town

Because his posts are a towns posts.

Please can I have added quote-thought-process analysis on this statement. I am not satisfied with your reasons.

As for red ff, I just liked his posts, but he posted some questionable things now

#168 is a little meh but I shouldnt talk as I pretty much did the same thing
#176 was probbably his best post, both a good question and observation about scum in rvs
#181 is a little forced
#187 is a very good question
#203 kinda concerns me with its tone though

1) What is your current read on redFF?

2) What was it about his early posts that made you announce "red ff is town" in the thread? Please could you quote the posts that made you have such an early strong town read on him.

He then explained the points that made him town read redFF, then later scum-read redFF - I was satisifed.

However, Kmd4390 highlihted a possible contradiction (this made me re-look at the developing scum-read of redFF by Banakai):

I just noticed after seeing Keyser quote it that

Ban's examples of questionable redff posts all came before ban said redff was town

. Interesting. I'm curious what made Ban change his mind.

This doesn't work; I already clarified what I meant by being active in post 123 which was before you asked me this question

But it wasn't before Keyser asked.

That is an interesting point.

Let's look at the chronology:

"

#168 is a little meh but I shouldnt talk as I pretty much did the same thing

"

[neutral]

"

#176 was probbably his best post, both a good question and observation about scum in rvs

"

[positive]

"

#181 is a little forced

"

[negative]

"

#187 is a very good question

"

[positive]
Banakai posts his read [Post #195, Banakai: "Also red ff is town"]

"#203 kinda concerns me with its tone though"

[negative]

It's only possibly Banakai's comment on post #181 which contradicts his town read of redFF.

His posts later on, feel emotive/genuine:

Also I'm fucking confused who I should be voting.

Add to this a passionate/determined scum-read of Boonskiies (post 690).

Banakai has been unafraid to express his strong feelings/frustrations - do I see that as town-aligned? In then case, yes, a slight town-lean (emotion is admittedly usually hard to place). I can however identify with his frustrations about Boonskiies' play - I can see how Banakai could interpret Boonskiies' posts as anti-town/scummy. As you can see I have had mixed reads on Banakai.

[Banakai]

I'd hardly call my read passionate/determined when haschel basically forced me to make a case

[Haschel Cedricson]

I'd hardly call my read passionate/determined when haschel basically forced me to make a case

Oh man I cannot wait to get off work so I can reply in-depth to this.