Micro 152 - BSG Mafia (Galactica Survives?)

[buldermar]

Hey, I'm at L-1.

It's nice to know that my claim is awfully convenient.

I am a vanilla townie.

In case you're actually town, do you against all odds have something useful to say before this thread is closed?

[buldermar]

Too tired to think about this tonight, but we're going to have to look into Syr's posts and figure out if there is a crumb anywhere.

[buldermar]

VT, popcorn buldermar

Just making sure that we're doing this (by reading the most recent posts), then I'll claim.

[buldermar]

Buldermar, give me a T->S list right now

I really have to reread Syr's posts but without doing so...

orc, SD, pit, mala

[buldermar]

Actually, popcorn pitoli. I don't need buldermar's claim

Good thing I waited.

[buldermar]

Pitoli i also want you to T->S

Same goes for SD.

You should do this too.

[buldermar]

That's a well thought out gambit. I'll look for flaws in it if people actually think you're telling the truth and wants me to show that you're not.

Anyway, VOTE: orcinus_theorinigal

[buldermar]

I don't know what I think of fery's role right now. I'll figure it out later.

I know it seems weak but when you realize just how forced "role" is in this sentence (over "alignment"), the crumb becomes irrefutable.

My n1 target was safety dance, which was why I came out of the gate with that neighbor business so hard.

Pitoli is most definitely buldermar's partner. The interaction between SD and buld is far too hard to fake.

At 3p lylo, SD and Mala should be voting pitoli. Quicklynch her ass.

The crumb just means you've been planning to do a gambit since the start of the game - if it even is a crumb, that is.

[buldermar]

Yeah, you played well as scum tbh. I wouldn't have caught you through scum hunting alone.

You should self vote later to end the day early.

SD/Mala sheeeeeep

There is no point in discussing with you because I already know for a fact that you are scum - any discussion will just mud the waters.

I may look into who your partner is later.

[buldermar]

Having just read on mafia wiki about the role, I can see why you'd claim I'm a ninja specifically. Firstly, that role is almost always scum aligned, meaning that there wouldn't be room for any WIFOM if people buy your gambit. Secondly, it's a role that fits into Syr's flip. Thirdly, you can get away with "only" claiming a role cop (as opposed to the perhaps stronger role "cop"). Clever.

fwiw I'm VT, but that's really irrelevant now.

[buldermar]

Oh and jsyk I was right about Nero being your nightkill.

Now I get it. I was wondering why you'd insist that I was responsible for the nightkill of Nero only to suddently push someone else, but you were obviously setting up this gambit of yours. Did you decide to claim a role cop specifically before or after you saw Syr's flip?

[buldermar]

VT, popcorn buldermar

I just realized something. From your perspective, if you were actually town, you wouldn't know for sure if me being ninja would be scum-aligned or town-aligned. Therefore, you'd ALWAYS wait for me to claim as by having me claim anything but ninja would mean for sure that I'm confirmed scum to you whereas by having me claim ninja would strongly suggest that I'm town despite your result. Since you already know for a fact that I'm town, and that I'm not a ninja, you didn't think of allowing me to prove myself scum to you by claiming something other than ninja, because you already have the information you would have gained by doing so by virtue of being scum. Nice try, though.

[buldermar]

"despite your result" should be "by virtue of your result".

[buldermar]

If you want to dig your own grave, do explain why town-you wouldn't wait for me to claim to confirm whether I'm scum-aligned or town-aligned.

[buldermar]

Yes because ninja can be a town-aligned role.

I decided that I knew enough to make a judgement already without needing you to claim. Originally I wanted you to claim to see who you would popcorn, but I realized that it was redundant with the T->S list.

Exactly because

it can be town-aligned you would have waited to see if I claimed ninja or something else had you actually been town.

You didn't "decide you knew enough to make a judgement already", because you didn't "know enough" to make that judgement at the time you decided to make it if you were actually town. You made an unfortunate slip in forgetting that you as town couldn't know which alignment I belong to and thus would have waited to get confirmation. But you didn't.

[buldermar]

(just to make that clear, ninjas can't be town aligned. I checked.)

Are you really going to pretend to not know that ninja's can be town aligned when you've just in your prior post indirectly showed that you

are

aware they ninja's can be town aligned?

[buldermar]

It says on the MafiaWiki that ninja's can be town aligned. You claimed to not know about the role before your supposed role investigation. So where exactly did you read about it, seing that it couldn't have been on the MafiaWiki? You're so full of shit, lol

[buldermar]

That was sarcasm. It was obvious enough for anyone other than you.

"Originally I wanted you to claim to see who you would popcorn, but I realized that it was redundant with the T->S list."

Was this really sarcasm?

[buldermar]

And are you really going to make personal attacks just because your gambit didn't work out as you hoped for? That's low.

[buldermar]

That was sarcasm. It was obvious enough for anyone other than you.

"Originally I wanted you to claim to see who you would popcorn, but I realized that it was redundant with the T->S list."

Was this really sarcasm?

Oh, not that.

Yes because ninja can be a town-aligned role.

This was sarcasm.

Oh no, I'm not making personal attacks. I'm just saying that you would question it because you're, y'know, scum.

It says on the MafiaWiki that ninja's can be town aligned. You claimed to not know about the role before your supposed role investigation. So where exactly did you read about it, seing that it couldn't have been on the MafiaWiki? You're so full of shit, lol

Ninjas are a

killing

role.

Anyways

Ninja is not necessarily aligned against the Town, but that's what happens in practice.
Alignment:
Anti-Town

And the person I asked about ninjas said she never saw a town-aligned ninja, ever.

So uh yeah. bye

So, if that quote wasn't sarcasm, and if you actually did believe ninja's could only be scum-aligned, why would the T->S list mean anything at all? It couldn't have.

You were making a personal attack, and I'm not going to discuss that.

Ninja's can according to the MafiaWiki be town-aligned. You said you didn't know about the role, so where did you read about it? (Oh, you asked a person and didn't think of reading about the role on MafiaWiki? Right lol) If it was MafiaWiki, you would know that it could be town-aligned, but you conveniently claim not to know now because you realize that you're confirmed scum by virtue of knowing (as previously explained).

Could you possibly backpedal more? I caught you in a slip and you're trying to work your way out of it by insisting that you

asked a person who said they were never town-aligned, and never bothered to confirm that statement on MafiaWiki

.

[buldermar]

Ninjas are not a town aligned role.

Vote: Buld

They can be according to MafiaWiki, which is what matters since it proves that orc is scum.

[buldermar]

Also why on earth would there be TWO information roles on the side of town?

Oh and this too I suppose.

[buldermar]

A Ninja is a role or role modifier such that the Ninja will never be seen as targeting anyone by a Tracker, Watcher, or other investigative role along these lines. It has been likened to the Tracker/Watcher equivalent to Godfather.

Ninja is not necessarily aligned against the Town

, but that's what happens in practice.

This is why orc is now insisting that he didn't read about the role on MafiaWiki.

[buldermar]

Pedit: buld just give up man

This is how you're responding to being caught in a lie? I hope town will carefully read and understand how you can't be town, since you'll obviously not admit to it.

[buldermar]

I did read about the role on MW. Where did you get that otherwise?

Oh and watch this.

A Ninja is a role or role modifier such that the Ninja will never be seen as targeting anyone by a Tracker, Watcher, or other investigative role along these lines. It has been likened to the Tracker/Watcher equivalent to Godfather.
Ninja is not necessarily aligned against the Town,

but that's what happens in practice.

Oh now you did read about the role on MW? So why did you not answer that initially but instead insisted that you asked a friend about it?

It doesn't matter that it's an anti-town role if it's still town-aligned. The argument is that you'd have asked me to claim when you know that it is possible for town to be a ninja. You have just admitted to have read about the role on MW where it clearly states that it can be town-aligned, yet you didn't wait for my claim. You're so full of shit.

[buldermar]

Oh cool - now that you have finally admitted to having read the wiki, the only thing left to do is to hope that town is actually capable of understanding that you by knowing that the role can be town-aligned would have waited for my claim had you been town.

[buldermar]

Bulder, apart from your AtE, is there anything specific you want us to read that proves your town?

Where did I appeal to emotion?

Aside from my role PM I don't think there is anything that definitely proves that I'm town. Post 1388 is important. If you understand it, you'll know that orc must be scum and that I must be town as a consequence of him being scum.

[buldermar]

I'm VT

This is weird.

[buldermar]

Actually guys don't hammer buldermar just yet. I need to figure out who it is between SD and Pitoli.

Yeah nice try, but you're the one getting lynched, not me.

[buldermar]

Also: I do NOT want mala to claim.

Please do explain this.

[buldermar]

You remind me of Majiffy. He also often acts as if he figured out the entire game when he's scum and wants a mislynch to happen. I guess at this point you may as well.

[buldermar]

It annoys me a bit that I didn't realize that the "this is a buldermar night-kill" thing meant you're scum before now. I just thought you were being weird for no good reason, but it adds up now.

[buldermar]

Mala claims at 3p lylo. I'm not explaining squat to scum.

You go today, Pitoli tomorrow.

Byebye, see you in postgame.

Pedit: Yeah but 1). I actually have the game figured out and 2). I'm not scum

Or maybe things are really simple and you just don't want Mala to possibly claim a PR now.

[buldermar]

Mala claims at 3p lylo. I'm not explaining squat to scum.

You go today, Pitoli tomorrow.

Byebye, see you in postgame.

Pedit: Yeah but 1). I actually have the game figured out and 2). I'm not scum

Or maybe things are really simple and you just don't want Mala to possibly claim a PR now.

OR I don't want scum to be getting unnecessary information

This discussion is futile.

[buldermar]

Or he could just an egotistical twat who's letting a result get to his head and affect his brain function, that's what I have to figure out and decide. You yourself give off the impression that you're resigned, defeated, why else but because you're caught scum? I'd expect an experienced player to start fighting a bit more against the claim.

Yes, you essentially nailed it.

You

have to figure out and decide, not me. I already know that he's scum. I'm not quite sure why you'd think I've resigned, nor do I know what it is that you'd expect me to do. I've showed where he made a critical mistake - you even pointed it out yourself. If you're just going to pass it off as an egotistical act, then what exactly can I do about it?

[buldermar]

Spoiler:

That's a well thought out gambit. I'll look for flaws in it

if people actually think you're telling the truth and wants me to show that you're not.

Anyway, VOTE: orcinus_theorinigal

Pedit: buld just give up man

This is how you're responding to being caught in a lie?

I hope town will carefully read and understand how you can't be town, since you'll obviously not admit to it.

Oh cool - now that you have finally admitted to having read the wiki, the only thing left to do

is to hope that town is actually capable of understanding that you by knowing that the role can be town-aligned would have waited for my claim had you been town.

These are not appeals to emotion, lol. I think you don't actually understand what an appeal to emotion is, but I don't think it's relevant anyway.

If you do want to have this discussion, please explain to me why you disagree with the definition of Appeal to emotion provided by wikipedia.org:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

[buldermar]

And the person I asked about ninjas said she

never saw a town-aligned ninja, ever.

DA FUCK?!

Tell me you didn't just lose the game for town by breaking Posting and Communicating Rule 5? (

question directed at AP, not you

)

To my understanding he merely asked how frequently someone encountered town-aligned ninjas in her play, with no reference to this specific game.

[buldermar]

orc is scum with mala or pitoli, and atm I'm thinking pitoli since he'd want to act as if he's lining up lynches now so that if he gets lynched, his partner was the hypothetical lynch of the subsequent day and would thus be considered conftown by virtue of his flip.

[buldermar]

Oh and I forgot this in the last post--Buldermar is confscum to me right now, so I don't want anyone else to claim. That would just be giving unnecessary information to Buldermar to influence his night action

Even if I were scum I wouldn't have any nightaction if I'm lynched. You're so full of shit.

[buldermar]

I am trying to rush this. Because I know who's scum in this game and my goal right now is to make that lynch happen before you all drink too much of Buldermar's soup.

More bullshit.

[buldermar]

I been thinking about how a Miller (town) neighbor, watcher, Role cop could go in a balance structure with ninja which means the other scum member is a normal goon or possibly godfather. We are still unsure if there's another PR in the game.

I have never seen a town-aligned ninja. Please tell me though Buld.. What use would a town aligned ninja be while we have a town watcher?
Wait.. There's none.

Mods make silly roles to throw people off all of the time. Ninjas are according to mafiawiki also town-aligned, which is where orc admitted to have read about them. It doesn't have to have any utility for town - for all I care it could be an inherently anti-town town-role. That's all besides the point I'm making, so I really don't understand why you're asking this question.

[buldermar]

Also Pit.. has been around since Day opened. I just checked timestamps and we did get a day on.. so her avoiding posting right now is odd as hell.

VOTE: Buld

She's not posting because she's scum with orc. What the fuck would the point of her not posting if she was scum with me be? You're making so little sense that it hurts.

[buldermar]

It's gg if pitoli logs on, good job replacing in and throwing the game for no good reason.

[buldermar]

Oh and I forgot this in the last post--Buldermar is confscum to me right now, so I don't want anyone else to claim.

That would just be giving unnecessary information to

Buldermar

to influence

his

night action

Even if I were scum I wouldn't have any nightaction if I'm lynched. You're so full of shit.

[buldermar]

IIRC it says that they can be town aligned but are anti-town by practice. That's not to say they are scum-aligned by practice, which would be a different matter altogether.

So, once again, you're full of shit.

[buldermar]

When there's a watcher - there's no need for a town aligned ninja, but there is a need for a scum aligned ninja.

Which is obviously why orc is fake-claiming to have a result of me being a ninja.

[buldermar]

AP ins't the type of mod to say - hey I'm just going to put in a town ninja for laughs. He does balance, he likes to write up flavor.

Plus you literally admitted to being one so please lynch him guys.

That's all irrelevant to the point I'm making, and I can't admit to being a ninja when I'm not.

[buldermar]

Sorry, I believe Orc.

The only thing you are saying is 'I'm not a ninja or ninjas can be town aligned (when they normally aren't)'. You just brought up Orc fake claiming, but you haven't even tried to attack a role cop possibly being mafia which I would believe someone town would have done in your position.

Your attitude is quite absurd. You act as if it's somehow my responsibility to guide town and show how orc is scum. You lose the game in just as real of a sense as I do if I get lynched, and you've done nothing to investigate this matter. You may assert that I should be able to find something you can't find by knowing that he's scum, but you can just as well make that hypothesis, in which case we have the exact same information available.

In short, it's no more my responsibility to prove that orc is scum than its yours. So fuck off, and don't you dare blaming this on me.

[buldermar]

"Appeal to emotion or argumentum ad passiones is a logical fallacy which uses the manipulation of the recipient's emotions, rather than valid logic, to win an argument."

How is you saying "I hope town will..." not using any sort of appeal towards those players rather than any logic?

It is indeed using appeals, just not appeal to emotion. Anyway, I don't feel like discussing this, I don't think it's important.

[buldermar]

You don't talk outside of and current game to anyone about anything to do with said current game, period. I, when looking at roles and speculating don't hit up the first non-competing player I find to get their opinion. WTF. That's just a slippery slope, what then would stop someone just posting in mafia discussion to get advice on a current closed setup or role? Absurd.

I personally don't think he did anything wrong in asking a person whether she had encountered town ninjas before, but I do see the point you're making and maybe he did from a strict rule-set point of view.

[buldermar]

Tell me (and I'd love to hear Bulder's version too) how building the foundations early on to get a town-player to self-hammer, helped the town?

I was convinced she was scum.

[buldermar]

Bambi can only be scum with you now.

Yeah, obviously, which means that Mala is scum with orc.

[buldermar]

I didn't want to lynch fery on day 1,

but after she stated intent to self-hammer I didn't really have a choice.

What????

[buldermar]

How did you "not really have a choice"?

[buldermar]

It was buld who pushed that lynch to the brink. I wanted to back off to rolecop her.

So why were you on the final wagon when you supposedly could have rolecop'ed her? Nice story.

[buldermar]

I don't want mala to claim in case she is a PR and that gives scum more information to use with their night action. When buld flips scum, pit goes tomorrow without question. If you insist on having mala claim, go ahead, but you won't need it, and only tomorrow.

This is such an absurd argument. We know by now that pitoli can only logically be partner with me, so if you actually did have a guilty on me, pitoli would be confirmed scum by the time I'm lynched. The only thing her claim could possibly change is peoples opinion of your fakeclaim - and yet you insist that she shouldn't claim. Just give me a single example of how mala's role information supposedly could be used by scum? It's complete nonsense.

[buldermar]

Town aligned ninjas do not exist.

This is a lie.

[buldermar]

None of my play makes sense from a scum angle. If Buld were town, I could easily have pushed for a mislynch on you. Buld would have sheeped me all the way. Why would I fakeclaim? Why would I purposely make my play suspect by refusing to let mala claim?

This is a weak WIFOM argument. You did it so you can sit here and talk about how you'd never have done it as scum obviously.

[buldermar]

I'm learning a lot about scum AtE watching you flail

I'm leaning a lot about stupidity watching you play.

[buldermar]

I don't want mala to claim in case she is a PR and that gives scum more information to use with their night action. When buld flips scum, pit goes tomorrow without question. If you insist on having mala claim, go ahead, but you won't need it, and only tomorrow.

This is such an absurd argument. We know by now that pitoli can only logically be partner with me, so if you actually did have a guilty on me, pitoli would be confirmed scum by the time I'm lynched. The only thing her claim could possibly change is peoples opinion of your fakeclaim - and yet you insist that she shouldn't claim. Just give me a single example of how mala's role information supposedly could be used by scum? It's complete nonsense.

Mala isn't claiming today. Once again, not pandering to scum. If SD wants to pressure a claim he'll do it himself

Good job ignoring my point and repeating yourself.

[buldermar]

None of my play makes sense from a scum angle. If Buld were town, I could easily have pushed for a mislynch on you. Buld would have sheeped me all the way. Why would I fakeclaim? Why would I purposely make my play suspect by refusing to let mala claim?

This is a weak WIFOM argument. You did it so you can sit here and talk about how you'd never have done it as scum obviously.

See, that's scum employment of WIFOM. Observe what this post boils down to.

"You did a play that doesn't make sense for scum. But you're not town. Just cuz"

This is the WIFOM soup we learn to identify in Townie 101

The whole fucking point of WIFOM is that it applies both ways.

[buldermar]

None of my play makes sense from a scum angle. If Buld were town, I could easily have pushed for a mislynch on you. Buld would have sheeped me all the way. Why would I fakeclaim? Why would I purposely make my play suspect by refusing to let mala claim?

This is a weak WIFOM argument. You did it so you can sit here and talk about how you'd never have done it as scum obviously.

See, that's scum employment of WIFOM. Observe what this post boils down to.

"You did a play that doesn't make sense for scum. But you're not town. Just cuz"

This is the WIFOM soup we learn to identify in Townie 101

This "oh yeah but this could be scum making a nonsensical play that severely lowers their chance at winning lol" doesn't make an ounce of sense.

It doesn't "lower your chance of winning".

[buldermar]

Which part of 1484 did I not address directly?

[buldermar]

SD + pitoli = confirmed town for not hammering me, which means that Mala is as much confirmed scum as is orc.

[buldermar]

Ninjas are not a town aligned role.

Vote: Buld

Wait.

Why did you want to lynch sd if you role copped him?

UNVOTE:

Makes sense that you'd pretend hesitate a bit first only to sheep orc with "sorry buldey I just don't believe you".

[buldermar]

So why the sudden reversal now and not before I spelt it out for you?

I thought it was quite obvious - even to you.

[buldermar]

You 180'd after white-knighting her. In fact the whole day's play can be pinned onto 1 post, #259 which is you basically OMGUS'ing her. It's rather strange.

I'm not sure what it is you think is strange about post 259. Can you be more specific?

[buldermar]

So, Sd, who would you like to lynch today and why? Since you are litterally traction against a Buld lynch even though its pretty obvious he's scum being caught right now.

Why do you act as if there is more than two options when there isn't? (you don't have to answer)

[buldermar]

You went from WK to wanting to lynch her
Your votes was an OMGUS
That post basically started the inevitable suicide-fery push after Orc built the fery-scum foundations. If you two weren't cross-alignment now I'd say it was a perfect tag team.

I still don't think I WK'ed her, as you put it, but I did go from not wanting to lynch her to wanting to lynch her. Is there something about the post or something else you want me to explain? I still don't get what it is that you think you're seing.

[buldermar]

Please note he's trying to buddy both you and Pit in a way by callin you obv town because you didn't hammer to see if he can wiggle getting out of his noose.

They are both confirmed town by not hammering me - am I supposed to act as if they're not?

[buldermar]

You went from WK to wanting to lynch her
Your votes was an OMGUS
That post basically started the inevitable suicide-fery push after Orc built the fery-scum foundations. If you two weren't cross-alignment now I'd say it was a perfect tag team.

I still don't think I WK'ed her, as you put it,

but I did go from not wanting to lynch her to wanting to lynch her

. Is there something about the post or something else you want me to explain? I still don't get what it is that you think you're seing.

What about that?

[buldermar]

Buld what changed from your post towards the end of Day 2 saying my post looked town to immediately going back to your tunneling on me saying I'm scum?

Stop acting stupid, seriously.

[buldermar]

SD, I'll try to explain whatever it is that you need explained if only you specify exactly what it is. I went from not wanting to lynch her to wanting to lynch her because of many different posts that all looked scummy to me, if that's what you're wondering about. I can find them and quote them individually if I really have to.

[buldermar]

go town go town we won go town

This post is not a "bah" post.

[buldermar]

????

The "we won" part is a reference to the prior day and instruction to town of following your plan. Don't play stupid. You're deliberately cheating. Yes, I'm calling you a cheater, because this is not a "bah" post at all.

[buldermar]

Can I get scum QT?

No you can't.

[buldermar]

Buld played a great scumgame.

I'm butthurt that I lost ;(

[buldermar]

Oh, I wanted to apologize for my temper. Those especially towards Buld/Orci.

No worries =)

[buldermar]

Thanks for modding, looking forward to more games from you! =)

pitoli, I saw what you wrote in the scum QT. Don't be hard on yourself. I think you played well and most of all it was just really unfortunate that orc investigated the one night where I (because I was using my 1-shot ninja) was the one performing the kill. I wouldn't mind being your scum partner again in the future!

ggs all and congrats to all the winners.

[buldermar]

I don't get why you guys hestitated lynching pitoli in 3p LyLo after I had flipped scum. There were only two possible combinations: me being scum with pitoli, and orc being scum with Mala. After I flipped, pitoli was confirmed scum - yet the two of you acted as if there was a possibility of pitoli not being scum. I don't mean to trashtalk (believe me, you'd not be in doubt if I did), I just found it quite perculiar. I'm pretty sure orc can confirm what I'm stating right now, as he was the first one to point this out IIRC.

I don't feel like outing the QT because ff will have access to it. She's already too good; there is no reason to make it virtually impossible to beat her when she's town.

[buldermar]

chicken

You're the one being all worried usually, I'm merely returning the favor xD

[buldermar]

thats a fuycking stupid reason

moderator, please out the qt

Hey Nero

go fuck yourself.

[buldermar]

@Buld: I wanted to be certain of her being scum. I was a bit paranoid with her very little flavor claim and then SD's claim. In the end SD triggered a feel that he was town.

There was 100 % certainty already, you just either forgot about it or didn't realize it. It's not a big deal, but I can find the exact posts in which we determined that the scum team would have to be one of {pitoli, me} or {Mala, orc} if required.