Mini Normal 2157 | Over

[Andresvmb]

Look I can’t decide if Testa is Scum and Koba is Town. Nobody wants to take the plunge with NPOM because they reek of mis-execute bait (even though you won’t find a Scummier Town ever if they’re Town). So Aldus is my very best guess.

[Andresvmb]

Your best guess is terrible.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not whining. I’m stating facts. Your best guess is terrible.

[Andresvmb]

How would I not know that exactly? You’re saying I’m Scum trying to save a Partner.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway you’re just distracting I don’t care to interact with you here.

[Andresvmb]

@Datisi @Hellbooks I think that without your direction this game is not going to move forward. You still have a Day. If anybody wants to ask me something in good faith I’ll be around.

[Andresvmb]

Ah so if Testa flips Scum, I’m the Partner, but if they flip Town, I was looking for Town cred? What kind of nonsense is this?

[Andresvmb]

I was talking to NPOM.

[Andresvmb]

@Datisi I would prefer if you put a vote down to really give a firm inclination of what you want, though it seems to me like Testa is going to get the axe based on Hellbooks’ intent there.

[Andresvmb]

right

scum taking away my support

we are lynching npow/aldus today

scumteam is npow + aldus + koba(with a chance of it being andres instead of koba)

I think Aldus is correct, and I did think that Koba was also almost guaranteed Scum after the Testa flip. I don’t understand why VPB is still alive.

[Andresvmb]

and andres

My read on you has not changed. Why would it?

[Andresvmb]

No but we were on the same wagon on what is now guaranteed Scum from my POV, so if anything I am more confident that you’re Town.

[Andresvmb]

However! And this is the fun part. I did very much predict we would be sitting right here right now, with VPB still alive and a guilty. I would feel far better if we executed Aldus actually. But I understand how it might be hard to get away from a red check.

[Andresvmb]

And you know how everything you’ve said has been wrong right?

[Andresvmb]

^for NPOM.

[Andresvmb]

@Iconeum NPOM is Scum. Ignore the slot completely.

[Andresvmb]

Giving NPOM any say in what happens today is wrong.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t understand why VPB is still alive.

Seems like a bad play. My guess is scum figured they'd get PoE'd if this went another day or 2. Me being alive today is obvious miselim bait meant to end the game on the first day of Xylo.

Yeah but the easiest way to fight it is by eliminating Scum outside of your guilty. The wagon that formed on Alduskkel was pure. Anybody that has half a brain cell can see that clearly. And a counter wagon on Town formed that also formed almost identically on me. I understand the urge here to go for the red check, I do. But what my gut is telling me is that Aldus is a far better execution.

[Andresvmb]

And you have been right?

I’m not interacting with Scum. Go kick sand.

[Andresvmb]

I agree that Scum could have decided to keep you alive for the WIFOM. It’s possible. But it is also mighty convenient.

Listen if you’re still peddling the notion that Ico or I could be Scum, then I don’t know what to tell you. Alduskkel

is

Scum. It’s obvious. Testa never comes up as an alternative otherwise.

[Andresvmb]

I've always been a little sympathetic to andres

Thanks? You should be somewhat convinced that I’m Town. Unless you think the wagon that formed on Testa after forming on me yesterday was Town motivated.

[Andresvmb]

I agree that Scum could have decided to keep you alive for the WIFOM. It’s possible. But it is also mighty convenient.

Listen if you’re still peddling the notion that Ico or I could be Scum, then I don’t know what to tell you. Alduskkel

is

Scum. It’s obvious. Testa never comes up as an alternative otherwise.

If you're peddling that you're more town then me, you're wrong. We're not yeeting off a confirmed guilty in Xylo. EVER.

Objective confirmed towniness goes: hellbrooks>VP>Ico>>>>>>everyone else

I’m not convinced that you’re more Town than I am for anybody paying attention. Again it’s entirely mechanical, because you *again* sided with Scum in eliminating Town, even after Datisi was clear in what they wanted to see happen, and I kept making the point of how the wagon was forming. And seriously, why should I ignore my gut just because you conveniently come out with a guilty in ELo?

I just knew we would be here and it’s annoying, because all we had to do to completely avoid this was eliminate Aldus.

[Andresvmb]

Of course scum koba will say Baltar is scum.

If anybody pays any attention to anything NPOM says I will immediately tag them as Scum. It’s complete WIFOM and should be ignored.

[Andresvmb]

And seriously, why should I ignore my gut just because you conveniently come out with a guilty in ELo?

Stop being egotistical. Your gut is not better than my proven PT cop ability, nor are you more town than me just because you weren't on the testa wagon.

I have a confirmed guilty. I'd have to be a mind reader as scum to get to this position faking it. Koba is the elimination.

Your ability is proven, I agree. There’s no doubt in my mind that the actual ability to check for PTs is present in the game. But I’m not being egotistical. I don’t trust you. It’s just plain and simple. You tried to participate on a wagon on me that was clearly Scum motivated. And it’s plain for everyone to see, since the identical wagon then formed on Testa who was Town and as a counter wagon to a slot that I’m almost certain is Scum.

[Andresvmb]

I think with the revelation that :

a) testa was town

b) vp is conf scum(to me)


andres

aldu
npom


i am going to have questiosn for everyone later to answer that i think that should have been asked way before instead of me just trying to weakly argue without getting proof of anything.

I’ll admit, you brought this entirely upon yourself by not engaging with my points better yesterday. I made a long list of points and clearly put most of my thoughts out there, but you also decided to side with Scum against me, and then Testa.

Deciding this 50/50 sucks. It’s never going to go in favor of Koba today. Because it is impossible to convince all of the Town that voting against VPB today is the play. It’s not happening. VPB might be Scum, and I said as much, but the ability is proven, so ignoring the check is just so difficult to do. Even if we all sort of know that Aldus is incredibly likely to be Scum for example. Like why the resistance to executing there? Don’t we have to as some point? If VPB is Town, does anyone really think the Scum are stupid enough to let him keep on going to clear more players in future days? C’mon now.

[Andresvmb]

I won’t be voting first here. No chance in hell. If we really are going to decide between the 50/50, both NPOM and Alduskkel vote first. I will want to see what Hellbooks and Ico want to do.

[Andresvmb]

Typical Andres. No action behind his words.

You know how I know you’re Scum? Because if you were Town, you would never say these things. You would actually go back and re-read, and try to engage with my slot since your prediction about me defending my Partner was AGAIN hilariously wrong.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Alduskkel

Hellbooks is a Mason, and VPB/DkKoba contains at most 1 Scum. That leaves 2 Scum from my POV between Ico/Aldus/NPOM. If everyone’s assessment of Ico is wrong, we lose anyway. If you still include Ico in the group as a possibility, then your choice is at worst a 50/50 anyway, since Hellbooks is Confirmed. This is always correct from my POV. It’s a 66.7% chance of hitting if I vote randomly amongst the group, versus a straight 50/50 between DkKoba/VPB, and I’m obviously not voting randomly since I have a high degree of certainty that Ico is Town.

[Andresvmb]

This is mathematically the correct play. There’s so much WIFOM around VPB mechanically that I can’t see why we want to make that decision now. And we don’t have to.

[Andresvmb]

Save the compliments until it’s actually shown I’m correct. Now this is definitely the hill I’m willing to die on.

[Andresvmb]

And to make the point more obvious. DkKoba and VPB contain one Scum, and only one Scum. That is strictly never TvT, and Scum Partners wouldn’t have done that. If they were both Scum, then either the “check” comes back clean, or the person investigated is a different one. However, the odds do change if you think this is some sort of Scum gambit. But I would reduce that universe to a less than 1% occurrence, and so I’m ignoring it.

[Andresvmb]

@Ico I’m sorry to be forcing your hand here to some extent, but I see massive benefit to moving in this direction.

[Andresvmb]

I think I was harsh in rescinding my TR of your slot so fully yesterday. I’ll acknowledge that. Having said that, I have a post where I go through your “bad” pushes, and it’s not pretty. At the same time, you wavered with Bob to a point that Scum probably wouldn’t have. And if VPB didn’t have a mechanical element to fall back on, he would be very high on my execution list.

[Andresvmb]

3376 to be precise. And you would have to add Testa to it.

[Andresvmb]

I guess what I’m saying is, if you remove the mechanical elements of the game for a minute, VPB is Scummier. He’s trying to project confidence that he’s Town so that we all simply follow through with your execution. And it’s not wrong per se. But I think we need to corner the Scum here. If Aldus is Scum, and we flip there correctly, the strategic options for Scum narrow *considerably*. And you know if I’m wrong, the downside is already kind of low. Let’s put it this way - I don’t expect to get full blame for a Town loss here. I’m partly to blame of course. But the Masons splitting on a crucial vote I suspect will carry far more conversation than my attempt at not having to decide in a 50/50 hahaha

[Andresvmb]

He did check again.

[Andresvmb]

3542

[Andresvmb]

@Hellbooks @Iconeum let me know if you are willing to do this. I think the upside is fairly evident. And I don’t see how we have all that much to lose at this stage.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: NPOM

Sure. Same odds.

[Andresvmb]

CONFIRMED GUILTY

If you don't believe it, then flip me and lose this game. I really cannot even deal with people not getting how simple this is. You either think I'm scum or I have a guilty. The cross votes prove it.

This is only a certainty from your POV. No one else’s. It’s kind of sad that you can’t even acknowledge that this is a fact.

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

I’m made myself abundantly clear. I’ll let others chime in here.

[Andresvmb]

^I’ve*

[Andresvmb]

My vote for Aldus was sitting out there for an hour and a half though. Don’t the Scum just hammer if I’m wrong?

[Andresvmb]

This isn’t really that complicated. And it’s strategically sound. Just think about it. If VPB is Town, he dies. Guaranteed. No sensible Scum let’s the Team be exposed so easily at that stage. Pure common sense indicates that the Scum would sacrifice DkKoba here no questions asked and take their chances with 3 players left and most of the Confirmed players dead. If VPB is Scum, he lives until tomorrow. This is also a near certainty. And you STILL have to decide amongst the group of players that’s left because we actually have a Confirmed Town in Hellbooks. The situation doesn’t change at all between today and tomorrow, you just have more Town players to discuss it with.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah but the point is that if we flip correctly between you and VPB right, then the person we didn’t flip dies (or Hellbooks dies) because they are Confirmed Town, and at least tomorrow you are left in the exact same situation where you have to choose in the pool of Ico/NPOM/Aldus/Me. Like this decision doesn’t all of a sudden disappear if we choose correctly between you and VPB. So we can avoid the choice with slightly worse odds, and choose correctly between the pool. And if we do, we actually give ourselves a very good shot at winning this thing.

[Andresvmb]

@Ico Aldus is practically always Scum here unless you think I’m Scum that left my vote out there for a long time. Why are you not confident about voting there?

[Andresvmb]

UNVOTE:

I’m made myself abundantly clear. I’ll let others chime in here.

Dude, if you're town, stop just fucking voting willy nilly. One wrong vote and this get could be over if scum are online. Jesus.

Both votes are identical in impact today. I’m gambling the game on Ico being Town. And if that’s the choice, then either NPOM or Aldus are correct executions and they are both identical as choices outside of what my read might be. And this isn’t going to change. Ico probably has a stronger feeling that NPOM is Scum over Aldus. Well, guess what, I’m fine with that. This isn’t voting willy nilly. It’s just the obvious conclusion from where I sit. And the good thing is that I can’t screw it up.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Alduskkel

With Ico signaling that they prefer NPOM, that means that I can literally never go wrong with this vote.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah but now I don’t even have to guess on Ico’s alignment. This is 100% correct. Either that or I’m Scum, and why in the hell do I even care to explain all of this as Scum. I don’t bus my teammate outside of the 50/50 here ever agreed?

[Andresvmb]

If VPB is Town and I know this as Scum, I bus my teammate with a lot of flair, have my Team kill VPB, and take my chances in a smaller game. You all know this.

[Andresvmb]

I’ve made up my mind on the optimal decision today. I’m sticking to Aldus here. I will know with more certainty how your check plays out tomorrow.

[Andresvmb]

There isn’t a whole lot of WIFOM. It’s the same thing as your guilty. Now I practically have a guilty myself. If the vote continues to sit out for a while, then my situation approaches yours. Except, the odds of winning the game improve quite a bit by correctly deciding between me and Aldus. And I challenge you to find another situation where someone in my position would publicly confirm themselves as Scum only to delay the death of a Partner.

[Andresvmb]

I have a feeling Hellbooks that I won’t ultimately have to make that choice hahaha I think it’ll become evident later in the game.

I think at this stage I would flip a coin and decide. Because that’s almost exactly what it is. I really do have a sinking feeling Koba is Town. I do. But I am not nearly confident enough to risk it.

You know what I am almost sure of? Aldus being Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Actually you would have already died since Ico also checked in. So the correct choice is between me and you. I appreciate the WIFOM though about VPB, very clever. Will be summarily ignored.

[Andresvmb]

Okay I’ll be out doing some work and eating dinner. I’m locking my vote. I’ll be back later.

[Andresvmb]

Just out of curiosity, how can you claim your summary is completely unbiased, when I have a vote that’s been sitting on another player for hours, and the game hasn’t ended yet, and you don’t mention it

at all

? In fact, that player does NOT want to face me in a 1v1 because they don’t think they can come out on top, as they themselves admit. How is Alduskkel ever Town here? And that player happened to survive a key and close vote with Testa, who was Town? Just clarify that for me.

[Andresvmb]

The Testa wagon clearly contained Scum, and most likely 2 of the Scum if not the entire Team. VPB and DkKoba were both on it. I wasn’t. How is it not easier to decide between Aldus/Me versus Koba/VPB?

[Andresvmb]

The idea that I’m setting up a Town player is absurd. C’mon, you can at least admit it. It doesn’t make any sense. If I’m Scum, then surely Alduskkel is Town and NPOM probably too. How is it not easier for me to bus DkKoba if they’re my Partner, have VPB NK’ed, and not try and sway a Town vote onto NPOM for example in what is STILL ELo?

[Andresvmb]

Yes it is a better bet. You’re just not being objective because you are in the 1v1. There’s never been any serious voting action around you or DkKoba. All we have is your word. We have had serious voting action around my slot and Alduskkel. It’s all there man.

[Andresvmb]

There are clear events that establish that a PT Cop exists. There are no clear cut events that establish that the PT Cop is Town. This distinction is obvious to me. And if you are Town, you know we still have to make the decision I am trying to force today. That’s also evident. You seem mighty opposed to a situation that is inevitable even if you’re check is correct. Why?

[Andresvmb]

^your check*

[Andresvmb]

So all your arguments are setup based? I also know I’m right - I have a vote down. It’s not a good enough argument, I’m sorry. The clear and targeted kill of Billy clears you how exactly?

[Andresvmb]

Listen I’m done engaging in this back and forth - it’s pointless. Ico and Hellbooks can decide what they want to do.

[Andresvmb]

It should also go without saying that once Hellbooks (in particular) and Ico have jointly decided which 1v1 to solve, they let others vote first.

[Andresvmb]

Actually, I do have a game where I tried a gambit as Town that worked. I’ll find it.

[Andresvmb]

https://forum.mafia451.com/t/urists-jun ... r/4000/697

[Andresvmb]

I have never played on epicmafia before.

[Andresvmb]

In that game, I was Town Doctor and had access to the dead PT. Two other players that were alive also had access to the dead PT when I made my gambit. The idea was to reveal that I was Doctor in the dead PT, and announce my target, who was quite likely to be the NK (and I was under heavy suspicion). I ended up blocked, and my target dead, which confirmed that the other player in the dead PT was Scum, eventually solving the game. For some reason, the Scum didn’t ignore me (which they should have done), and the play worked.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, you can read it yourself if you wish.

[Andresvmb]

Wait for Ico and Hellbooks to comment first. I want to see what they have to say.

[Andresvmb]

i have a big headache but i'll save it for later.

at this point i feel like i wanna just vote aldu too. bc if thats wrong then both ico and npom are scum which feels unsolvable and in whch case i just wanna end game and take the L early instead of drawing it out.

But yeah I mean this is the point. If I’m wrong about Ico for example then the game will end in a loss most of the time so we might as well speed it up and make some decisions that are completely inevitable. I’m not asking anybody to take a chance on a decision that can be avoided some other kind of way. This literally can’t be avoided. So let’s just get on with it.

[Andresvmb]

aldu if u vote testa ill tr u for free

lol i'll take what I can get

VOTE: Testarossa

But the more I hear from Andres the more I think he's town.

maybe i was overestimating the strenght of this statement

I meant the more I think Aldus is town.

sooooo... you meant the exact opposite of what you said basically?

oops

lmao

Just remember stuff like this as you ponder what 1v1 to solve!

[Andresvmb]

Don’t we have to as some point? If VPB is Town, does anyone really think the Scum are stupid enough to let him keep on going to clear more players in future days? C’mon now

Actually, ur wrong.

In the case of scum!VP, he won't die.
In the case of town!VP, he won't die. In this scenario, scum are committed to the frame. If we flip for example aldus today and he is scum, and scum then kill VP, we *KNOW* koba is scum. OTOH, if scum kill Hellbooks, who is actually conftown, scum can continue sowing distrust and WIFOM surrounding VP.

Giving VPB the chance to use his ability again, and either clear a player or identify another Scum. Why is it so hard for all of you to see the obvious strategic benefit? I really don’t get it. So you think the Scum theoretically takes the chance that VPB has a hard solve?

[Andresvmb]

Giving VPB the chance to use his ability again, and either clear a player or identify another Scum. Why is it so hard for all of you to see the obvious strategic benefit? I really don’t get it. So you think the Scum theoretically takes the chance that VPB has a hard solve?

andres, as long as we don't straight out flip VP, he can use his ability again. It doesn't matter if we flip his supposed guilty or not.

Ico c’mon. You’re wrong. If we flip Koba and Koba is Scum, VPB dies 100% of the time. If we flip VPB and VPB is Scum, Koba dies 100% of the time. We are back at EXACTLY the same place.

[Andresvmb]

I have a 1v1 with Aldus. We’ve all checked in, and my vote has been out for what, 10 hours?

[Andresvmb]

Koba stop. You’re not helping.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t care about that argument. It’s worthless.

The facts are pretty simple. If we solve in the 50/50 that is Koba/VPB, then we’re in the same place, and you still have to decide between Aldus and I because you can get your last dollar I’m voting there immediately since

my vote has been on Aldus for 10+ hours in ELo

.

[Andresvmb]

Meant to italicize that, didn’t work.

[Andresvmb]

This day has become WIFOM central. Here are basically the only facts anyone should be troubling themselves with:

1) VP has was forced to reveal he is a PT Cop in a gambit by Datisi, who claimed loyal neighborizer rather than tracker.
2) VP truthfully noted he visited George Bailey. (confirmed by hidden Billy track)
2) We believe scum have a rolecop and that's how they found Billy. That makes it extremely unlikely scum also have a PT cop.
3) VP has proven he is a PT cop by getting a false positive on hellbrooks.
4) VP has claimed a guilty on Koba.
5) Koba and VP have voted each other without a hammer, therefore one of them must be scum.

I'm trying to present the above facts as unbiased as I can, so people can see how ridiculous it is to think Koba is not scum in this situation.

thanks for doing this
i forgot the most important of my thoughts

VP has to be town here because of this logic
Billy got outed to scum on N1, and not by VP who got tracked to GB. VP had a false positive on Hellbooks, which means VP is a pt cop. If VP scum, then scum have 2 investigative roles vs 3 mason + 1 tracker in the masons. NEVER happening.

I'm down to settling this on koba. If game continues, andres blew a fuckload of town credit away lol

Ico I really don’t understand why you aren’t thinking clearly. So I’m Scum now? I fought to save Testa for what? And the same wagon that killed Town Testa previously formed on me, but that was all a master plan from Scum?

[Andresvmb]

some of yall need a little experience with some epicmafia mechanical setups and tell me how often u avoid killing an investigative role.
Bc u dont
Bc its stupid
Bc u have to be a game throwing asshole to do it

this is true to some extent

but ignores other factors like VP's reads, where he hard townreads at least 1 of the scum
-> a chance VP doesn't come out with a guilty
-> a chance to discredit the guilty like is happening right now

so yeah, there are worlds where this happens

Koba, don't get me wrong. I'm convinced you Always kill VP as scum v town. But you aren't alone in your scum PT if ur scum. Others may have overruled you. Mistakenly so, but it could be.

Ico please explain why Aldus is still around after my vote has been on them for 10+ hours.

[Andresvmb]

Ico I really don’t understand why you aren’t thinking clearly. So I’m Scum now? I fought to save Testa for what? And the same wagon that killed Town Testa previously formed on me, but that was all a master plan from Scum?

no i i'm sticking to townreading you but... you can at least understand the paranoia coming from you discrediting what is most likely just a guilty, right?

scum!you would be doing exactly this to win the game right here and now, IF ur scum. Do you see that?

No. Your argument assumes I would make the suboptimal move. I don’t have to make any waves if VPB is Town and has identified a Partner. I quietly bus, kill VPB, and then you have to correctly decide who is Scum within 5 where it’s still ELo and I’ve built a lot of Town cred for not being on Testa.

[Andresvmb]

Yeah theoretically such a world exists. But I’m not even pitching that right now. All I’m saying is that if VPB is Town, and the Scum again decide to keep him alive for some reason, they run the very real risk that we’ll have a complete solve tomorrow. If we try and figure out VPB and Koba, you are still left in the same place as right now where you will have to decide between Aldus and I. That’s not going to change. Like it’s strictly better. There’s no objective argument for a different solve.

[Andresvmb]

Nobody has to trust each other. You just have to follow basic logic and decide between Aldus and I, who has STILL not voted me.

[Andresvmb]

Ico what are you doing. I have a vote down.

[Andresvmb]

But why are you pushing for a third wagon. There’s already two 1v1s. If you’re Town, you’re actually gambling at that point that you have practically the perfect solve.

[Andresvmb]

And you still might get that wish. But let’s just do what’s clearly optimal.

[Andresvmb]

And the optimal move is to vote Aldus. So no, we don’t agree.

[Andresvmb]

koba + npow + aldus

OR

VP + npow + aldus

Then vote Aldus. Like what? If you can’t decide between VPB and Koba, but have me as Town, then your choice is obvious.

[Andresvmb]

Vote in your own time, it’s fine. But you have seen me play now. You know that I have some ability to plan ahead. I mean I literally wrote yesterday that VPB would be here with a guilty. You should be able to tell that I wouldn’t pull some dumb stunt as Scum just to try and end the game immediately, when I clearly don’t have to.

[Andresvmb]

i honestly believe scum!koba would Always kill VP here

but if VP is town then… what?

he got tracked doing the kill and did a reverse datisi, where he fakeclaimed a power role that may be in a partner hands?

Yeah, basically. We don’t know much because we haven’t flipped any of the Scum. But I’m not going to let us lose this just yet.

[Andresvmb]

Vote in your own time, it’s fine. But you have seen me play now. You know that I have some ability to plan ahead. I mean I literally wrote yesterday that VPB would be here with a guilty. You should be able to tell that I wouldn’t pull some dumb stunt as Scum just to try and end the game immediately, when I clearly don’t have to.

This is literally the stupidest argument. "I'm too good for this"

I've played about a million games on this site. Let's just stop with this clown shit.

Ico, the reason I'm alive now is become scum killed Billy and then they intended to keep me alive for wifom today. That is absolutely the play Koba and team went for. They knew the PoE was narrow, so what choice did they have?

Let's say they kill me last night. They come into today with a Datisi-hellbrooks confirmed town and an unshakable Dats-Ico alliance. That leaves the scum pool at Koba, Andres, NPOM, Aldus. That's a 75% chance of town success. Killing dats and leaving me alive adds me to the potential scum pool and reduces town chances of eliminating to 3/5, or 60%. Scum need to wifom enough to discount my investigation, but if they can do that, their odds of winning today go up.

So now you actually agree you’re not Confirmed? So which is it? And why am I voting outside of your guilty in any case?

My argument has nothing to do with the decision overnight, but the decision we face moving forward. Of course we’re likely to hit Scum today. That was never the issue. If Datisi and Ico stay alive, and you are NK’ed, who do you think would have gathered actual votes? I probably still don’t, since I wasn’t on Testa. Probably Aldus yeah? So if I’m Scum, don’t I win there anyway, given my 1v1 today? Datisi voted for Aldus over Testa, and took a bullet for it. Why doesn’t the Scum just get rid of the investigative and let someone push for Aldus again?

[Andresvmb]

@VP

but we both agree NPOW is literally Always scum, yes?

If we flip there, you have an investigation again. If scum go for the full wifom play, you have information tomorrow. If scum decide that play is over, and kill you, we will have confirmation on scum!koba.

That's a lot better then killing koba today, yes?

If you actually vote for NPOM at this stage, I’m going to freak out. I have a 1v1 outside the investigation. NPOM doesn’t make sense even if I think the guy is Scummy as hell.

[Andresvmb]

I mean this is game throwing.

[Andresvmb]

I think it's hilarious that Andres is telling Icon that it's gamethrowing to vote NPOM, when Andres literally did that himself earlier.

And the game isn’t over. So I clearly didn’t.

[Andresvmb]

I mean this is a massive perspective slip.

[Andresvmb]

I can’t game throw if I’m Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Not by voting in ELo at all. I can only do that as Town.

[Andresvmb]

Yet you still won’t vote me.

[Andresvmb]

And my vote has been on you for 12 hours I think now.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t have to gamble the entire game now with a perfect solve. I already know for a fact you’re Scum and I have successfully put us in a better strategic position. So why would I switch to NPOM exactly? Because you say so?

[Andresvmb]

You don't know anything for a fact. Your entire game has been to exaggerate and ate.

The fact that you are attacking me when the player I have a 1v1 with is trying to get other players to vote for you shows how illogical your gameplay is.

[Andresvmb]

And no, I do know it for a fact. You must have missed the part where I actually put a vote down in ELo, and the game hasn’t ended. So either I’m Scum or Aldus is Scum, and I know with 100% certainty from my POV that Aldus is Scum.

[Andresvmb]

you don't have a 1v1 you're just trying to get the town they need you to win when it's the furthest thing from the truth. VP's guilty is way better than anything you have on anyone. And the fact is we can't afford to mess this up. If you were town you'd see that a Kobe elim is the best thing to do rather than take a swing in the dark at aldus.

I’m not swinging in the dark. How hard is it for you to understand basic mafia. I have a vote down. Everybody outside of Hellbooks has posted over the last 20 minutes or so. This is ELo. If I’m wrong, it’s game over. Even VPB recognizes I’m never bussing my Partner outside of the investigative here. So you know with certainty that either I’m Scum, or Aldus is.

[Andresvmb]

Are you fucking kidding me?

[Andresvmb]

If NPOM is Town, we never had a chance. I tried. I really did.

I’m out. Do whatever you want. I don’t even care. You’ve made this game unwinnable as Town.

[Andresvmb]

then why aren't you voting?

Why are you pushing for the guy you SR to vote?

[Andresvmb]

Oh look! Everybody that said would be out is all of a sudden urging you to vote! Gee, I wonder why?

[Andresvmb]

No I’m talking about VPB. But I find it just somewhat interesting that you are urging the guy that you were willing to vote in ELo to vote between a 50/50 while recognizing that the strategy I’ve laid out is strictly better.

[Andresvmb]

@Ico please explain to NPOM why my vote guarantees Scum in Me/Aldus.

[Andresvmb]

@Ico please explain to NPOM why my vote guarantees Scum in Me/Aldus.

it guarantees it, yes

but you are not taking into account that aldus is only confirmed to YOU, and not to us?

Same with VPB’s result. It’s literally the same exact situation for anyone outside the 1v1.

[Andresvmb]

@andres I know what your theory is it's just bs.

I can’t with you. Ask Hellbooks who is Confirmed Town why I am arguing what I’m arguing. I’m not explaining myself again when you clearly refuse to read and is consistently wrong all the time.

[Andresvmb]

you either think koba is town, and i'm alinging him for the misrope

or you think VP is town, which means koba is scum, which means you can't think i'm alligning him for the misflip

which is it

Why are you only presenting one of the two 1v1s in the game?

[Andresvmb]

I’m going to bed. This game is lost.

[Andresvmb]

Ico these arguments are bad. They are literally identical. You should know better.

[Andresvmb]

Alright let’s watch the votes roll relatively quickly.

[Andresvmb]

First Alduskkel, and then Ico I think.

[Andresvmb]

Just vote and get it over with.

[Andresvmb]

andres, if you can't see the problem with how you are treating me here, that's on you

you cannot expect for me to blindly trust you for something that is only confirmed to you

You are making this silly argument and then forgetting that it is literally the same thing with the investigative solve. I don’t get it.

[Andresvmb]

I’m not repeating myself over and over. Do whatever you want.

[Andresvmb]

It doesn’t help me since NPOM is Scummy as shit and doesn’t understand how a hard vote in ELo can confirm someone.

[Andresvmb]

If you're town, it doesn't help that youre more interested in tunneling me than winning the game.

I’m tunneling you so hard, my vote IS ON ALDUSKKEL.

[Andresvmb]

I’m going to wait some 12 hours or so, wait for everyone to check in, and if the game hasn’t ended, I’m voting for NPOM. See you later.

[Andresvmb]

because you want to prove me wrong. Everyone agrees that in your mind aldus is scum, but no one thinks that your gambit actually makes him scum, from what I can tell.

You literally do not understand the very basics of mafia. Please ask this question to everyone else and see what they say.

[Andresvmb]

refreshed thoughts layed out

1 scum in koba+VP
1 scum in andres + aldus
1 scum in npow

there is enough evidence to not blindly trust VP's claim, but not enough to straight out not believe it either. boths sides have fair points and stuff going in their favour, so I deem it ok to not flip in them right now.

Ico here is my issue - I

know

Aldus is Scum. Yet Aldus has no problem voting for NPOM together with you here, and too many people that are suspect have tried to redirect there. And I can’t help but feel that this is a direct counter to my vote on Aldus. It went from being very hard to trust my logic, to easy enough that a

third

wagon was made available.

And the objective way to present it is that there’s 1 Scum in Ico/NPOM. Aldus could be bussing, but you can see how I have some concerns. Why can’t we start with Aldus? It takes a leap by everyone else anyway.

[Andresvmb]

Like Aldus thought it would be better for him as Scum to push NPOM instead of a 1v1 with me. Why?

[Andresvmb]

I mean when have you EVER seen a Town in Aldus’ situation vote for a different wagon and the game not end, in ELo? Why am I facing so much resistance to anyone trusting me as Town? It’s like my 1v1 is radioactive, but other ones are completely acceptable and only an idiot doesn’t trust it. I don’t get it.

[Andresvmb]

But I've already said my solve is DKK/Icon/Andres

This solve from your POV is now impossible. So you need to reconsider.

[Andresvmb]

I mean at the same time who cares. If NPOM is Town we literally never win.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: NPOM

[Andresvmb]

E-1.

[Andresvmb]

I mean at the same time who cares. If NPOM is Town we literally never win.

this is true

If this game actually doesn’t end and NPOM flips Scum, it’s been fun. I’ll have to push Aldus tomorrow but I’ll try and get that through for us.

[Andresvmb]

DkKoba I’m like almost sure NPOM is Scum.

Fingers crossed!

[Andresvmb]

@DkKoba @Hellbooks obviously VPB is outted, so DkKoba is Confirmed Town. My question to you would be - do you want to solve between Aldus and I first? That way, we guarantee a win tomorrow.

And I say this because I feel like you guys should discuss ahead of time what the correct play is. For me the game is obviously solved, and I do believe I’m obvious Town. But I will leave the decision in your hands.

[Andresvmb]

leaning strongly towards flipping baltar with that flip. sorry for being useless yall.

VPB is Confirmed Scum there’s literally 0 doubt. They were tracked to a kill and had the results from the Mafia JOAT fed to them for Town cred. I don’t even think it merits a discussion.

[Andresvmb]

I think you should talk with DkKoba before you put any votes down.

[Andresvmb]

No, VPB is actually mechanically confirmed Scum. They claimed a PT result on DkKoba, which would be impossible for them unless you think there’s two PT Cops in the game.

[Andresvmb]

I have to admit, I think it’s kind of interesting that you are here posting at all. I would completely avoid the thread in the hopes of not tipping the balance any which way.

[Andresvmb]

i dont think it's an argument we need to have lol. my mind is made up anyway
but yeah i dont think it's like impossible for there to be two PT cops, i think its bad practice to make conclusions based on certain setups being very unlikely

Hellbooks I’ll be honest - I am 100% sure VPB is Scum.

And it’s not about trying to dissuade you from voting VPB. By now you know for a fact that there’s 1 Scum in Alduskkel/Me. So I would have a conversation with DkKoba about what to do when you do have to make a decision between us. Because that’s the decision that wins the game.

[Andresvmb]

No, VPB is actually mechanically confirmed Scum. They claimed a PT result on DkKoba, which would be impossible for them unless you think there’s two PT Cops in the game.

You are very bad at mechanics clearly. The scum had a one shot PT according to the role PM. That makes perfect sense as a counter to mine if I hit a bunch of scum early

Yep, so bad that I called that the Scum had both a PT Cop and a Role Cop.

[Andresvmb]

i think rereading D4 probably will illuminate andres / aldus

I think you need to re-read both D3 and D4.

[Andresvmb]

No, VPB is actually mechanically confirmed Scum. They claimed a PT result on DkKoba, which would be impossible for them unless you think there’s two PT Cops in the game.

You are very bad at mechanics clearly. The scum had a one shot PT according to the role PM. That makes perfect sense as a counter to mine if I hit a bunch of scum early

Yep, so bad that I called that the Scum had both a PT Cop and a Role Cop.

They clearly don't have both of those things there, smarty pants. They have a JOAT, which is a one shot of several things.

I really can't believe you expect people to take you as genuine when you just say stupid things again and again as if they were true.

Is this effective for you as Scum? Calling people stupid?

[Andresvmb]

why r u getting into this argument andres

You’re right I shouldn’t. I just don’t like it when you see these demeaning comments. Because it’s fine if you want to continue playing hard and all. But I don’t respect this type of gameplay. So I don’t just quietly take it.

[Andresvmb]

No, VPB is actually mechanically confirmed Scum. They claimed a PT result on DkKoba, which would be impossible for them unless you think there’s two PT Cops in the game.

You are very bad at mechanics clearly. The scum had a one shot PT according to the role PM. That makes perfect sense as a counter to mine if I hit a bunch of scum early

Yep, so bad that I called that the Scum had both a PT Cop and a Role Cop.

They clearly don't have both of those things there, smarty pants. They have a JOAT, which is a one shot of several things.

I really can't believe you expect people to take you as genuine when you just say stupid things again and again as if they were true.

Is this effective for you as Scum? Calling people stupid?

I'm not saying you are stupid. I'm saying you're intentionally saying stupid things as if they make sense.

I’m not interacting with outted Scum. This is my last post responding to anything you say.

[Andresvmb]

Also, @Hellbooks this was NPOM’s solve in ELo:
3719
Do the opposite and you’re bound to end in a decent place.

[Andresvmb]

i mean it's damning in itself that VP hasn't outed his result yet right

There’s a lot more that’s damning. But yeah if you want.

[Andresvmb]

vp would have had 2 guilties by now btw if they were real lol

DkKoba I know how you would vote between Aldus and I, I think. But I would discuss with Hellbooks before the end of today.

[Andresvmb]

whats fucking me up is aldu having voted npom first.

I’ll give you my perspective and you can take it with a grain of salt.

It’s a gambit. The Scum knew after multiple votes had been placed outside of the investigative that it was quite possible that one of Aldus/NPOM flips there. With Aldus voting for NPOM first, they thought it would make it a lot less likely that I would also vote for NPOM (since from my POV that’s Scum voting in ELo for a player that was likely Scum but had been called mis-execution bait repeatedly). If NPOM flips, Aldus looks great. If NPOM doesn’t flip, then it refocuses the choice between you Koba and VPB, where VPB was still more likely to come out ahead.

[Andresvmb]

Don’t forget, Ico had already voted for NPOM. That 1v1, NPOM probably doesn’t survive. So it’s not that hard at that stage to go for the Town cred.

[Andresvmb]

the npom flip basically confirmed VP as scum which basically clears me.

i just am in a weird flurry of emotions.

So then why am I not pushing hard for deciding the game between you and VPB early in D4? Why vote outside the investigation at all? And where was Aldus while all of that was happening?

[Andresvmb]

i mean occams razor says ur scum but im just like thinking why would aldu throw so hard LOL

No, Occams Razor doesn’t lead to the conclusion that I’m Scum. Then I just vote for you yesterday and go for the win. How can you interpret my interactions with VPB since D3 as SvS? Or with NPOM as SvS?

[Andresvmb]

ANDRES if ur scum here imma be real LOL like imma just give u a fucking medal like well played u played ballsier gambits than I would even play.

I think as Town I stepped it up after D3. But I do think the reason we are in a good position is because of Billy (in particular) and Bob as well. That track is the primary reason that I started really questioning VPB.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway game is not over. I’ll step back now.

[Andresvmb]

You aren’t the only person that voted for NPOM. I did too. Multiple times. Called him Scum way earlier than you did. So your gambit didn’t pay off, and now you’re here trying to defend yourself with the only positive element in your game - a late vote on NPOM.

Looking forward to you detailing whatever else it is that you have to say for yourself.

[Andresvmb]

@Hellbooks I would like for you to explain these posts of mine from a Scum mindset.

2652
2655
2657
2658
2702
2809
2813
2867

[Andresvmb]

You seem to think that my interaction with VPB today was theater? Well then I’ve been engaged in theater that exposed VPB and ruined the play yesterday since much before.

[Andresvmb]

I didn’t refuse to have an opinion. I clearly said that VPB was Scummier, but I would rather not make that choice.

[Andresvmb]

Why would you trust anything VPB has to say though?

[Andresvmb]

It’s WIFOM and they’re outted...

[Andresvmb]

Why did I try and save Jankofan? Why did I not vote for Testa? Why has NPOM been gaslighting me since very early in the game, and include me in their solve yesterday? Why did I gamble the game on Ico being Town?

I think if you read closely, I don’t think you’ll find that it’s not particularly close.

[Andresvmb]

^I think you’ll find that it’s not particularly close*.

[Andresvmb]

last post: has partner equity to be sure

VOTE: NPOM

Sure. Same odds.

definitely towny

UNVOTE:

I’m made myself abundantly clear. I’ll let others chime in here.

Dude, if you're town, stop just fucking voting willy nilly. One wrong vote and this get could be over if scum are online. Jesus.

hrmm.... big frown of thought

I don't see Koba-scum hardpushing Testa over me since miseliminating us in the opposite order seems easier. Also would Koba-scum really risk VPB getting an innocent on me when it'd be easier to just kill VPB?

That plus gut is leading me to think VPB is the scum here.

his entrance

I think what you need to remember is that VPB and NPOM where always tied together. Ever since the track on VPB, if NPOM went down, VPB went down. So you have to understand that Alduskkel was always going to leave room to separate himself from them too. But Alduskkel’s entrance comes after I had already voted outside the investigative. Alduskkel was obviously waiting to see if the plan to claim a guilty worked out before making an entrance. That’s at least how I remember it.

[Andresvmb]

Why would you trust anything VPB has to say though?

this was pre him being outted. lol...

So? VPB is leaving misinformation out there. He’s Scum. You should be reading other Town players perspectives to inform yours. The Scum won’t just easily give you the answer by looking back.

[Andresvmb]

Andres, are you really arguing I'm scum based just on the timing of when I posted?

No, but it blunts the impact of your entrance. If you say what you said D4 prior to me already openly doubting VPB and voting outside of VPB/Koba, that’s one thing. But you didn’t. My vote was already out there. That makes a big difference.

[Andresvmb]

^you are ignoring the progression on VPB. But of course you are, you’re Scum.

[Andresvmb]

Like 2599 comes before I made all the other posts...

[Andresvmb]

So I knew there was a Scum PT Cop, and I decided to out that information to benefit the Scum... how?

[Andresvmb]

So I had a case of TMI, and I revealed it again to benefit the Scum how? The point I’m trying to make is that I wouldn’t put something out there that would directly harm the case my Partner was going to make to try and win the game in ELo. Because, well, it’s kind of stupid. It’s one thing if I put that out there once and never returned to it. But I returned to it repeatedly, quickly argued against any sort of setup claim that would clear VPB, and insisted that having a PT Cop didn’t mean the PT Cop was Town.

[Andresvmb]

You will also note that I’m not the only player to have delved into the roles in the game. Koba did too. I quoted it as well. Are you going to argue that Koba had too much information as well?

[Andresvmb]

feel like such a loser for hammering testa u guys

Don’t. The game is very much within reach. I was feeling pessimistic yesterday. I am much more optimistic today.

[Andresvmb]

Given the way that Alduskkel has been reacting to the fact that NPOM is not being pushed, Ico’s point about their hammer possibly coming from Town earlier in the game, and the fact that they were aligned with Billy yesterday, then the choice really is between Alduskkel and NPOM for me.

The way that NPOM has been twisting facts, and trying to get a silly clear by making the point about the Day Talk, I think I’m wrong, and need to switch.

VOTE: NPOM

@Alduskkel if you’re Town, and you could very well be Town and I was wrong about you, then work with me here. It could be that Billy had a better sense of Scum than Bob since they started the game from the beginning.

In case you don’t believe me that I’ve been voting NPOM since way before Alduskkel ever did.

[Andresvmb]

i still dont understand why town would get 2 investigatives AND 3 towns confirmed to themselves AND a way for one of the investigatives to hide their claim behind a person who is not the PR themselves.

a PR that is part of a 3 man masonry??? thats just fucking strong!

THIS is why I had the reaction I had to the Claims. Not some dumb perspective slip. I have my doubts about DkKoba as I’ve already explained, but the points about game balance are absolutely correct. It seems ridiculous to me that Town would have a 3-Person Masonry with a Tracker, and a separate PT Cop who could then point out Scum or independently confirm members of a Masonry if they happened to stumble upon them. That’s 4 players that cannot be executed if their Claims ended up all panning out, which here they have. Now, the PT Cop is obviously an actual Role in the game. Now, VPB could theoretically still be Scum. They were forced to claim by a well placed Tracker, and it *could* be the case that VPB isn’t actually the PT Cop but was told the result of a check by the actual Scum PT Cop to help cover his ass (since they were found by the Tracker), which has now been flipped. The only way to sort this is by correctly TK’ing Scum here.

And this is the post I was talking about (with my commentary).

[Andresvmb]

Let's not be OMGUSy or anything.

Dude, wtf. You weren't voting for Dats. You voted for hellbooks. Wtf do you even mean?

I've found by stopping trying to make logical sense of anything he says and only focus on PoE with NPOM, my quality of life has significantly improved.

Yeah, the more I try to figure out how NPOM's play makes any sense as any alignment the more I confuse myself.

But, if you look at NPOM's wagon history + the PoE + maybe NPOM is shading Dats/VPB because he doesn't want either of them confirmed, then I think "NPOM scum, Bob town" makes sense.

VOTE: NoPowerOverMe

Actually I’ll correct myself. Aldus did vote NPOM here.

[Andresvmb]

There's nothing TMI about Koba's post there.

That’s not the point. The point is that Koba was also doubting the alignment of the PT Cop because believes that in such a case, the game is very Town-sided. Ask them, they’re still around.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, I don’t think you’ll find any case in favor of either me or Aldus convincing purely from where we voted for NPOM. Let’s admit it - NPOM was the Scummiest player in the game. But Aldus’ vote and push for Testa for example, or hammer on Janko, should make you a little more cautious. And yeah I screwed up on Bob for sure. But then why did the players you now know are Scum built the same wagon that they built on Testa on me?

[Andresvmb]

And my point WAS that you were TMIing and then you tried to defend it by saying I'd have to argue Koba was TMIing as well.

I wasn’t TMI’ing, first of all. I had some speculation regarding the setup because I had the same questions regarding game balance. And you still haven’t answered the question - why exactly did I stand to gain as Scum by raising these questions?

[Andresvmb]

^what exactly*

[Andresvmb]

You aren’t the only person that voted for NPOM. I did too. Multiple times. Called him Scum way earlier than you did. So your gambit didn’t pay off, and now you’re here trying to defend yourself with the only positive element in your game - a late vote on NPOM.

Looking forward to you detailing whatever else it is that you have to say for yourself.

Anyway, I don’t think you’ll find any case in favor of either me or Aldus convincing purely from where we voted for NPOM. Let’s admit it - NPOM was the Scummiest player in the game.

Also I'd like to point out that Andres tried to say he was townier than me for voting NPOM first, but then when he realized that it was actually me who had done that, he revised his stance to say that our votes for NPOM weren't important for deciding between us. Andres is just cherry-picking the parts of the game that make him look better than me.

I’m not cherry picking - I am Townier than you. The biggest giveaway is the Testa/You vote at the end of D3, with the votes that had previously accumulated on me jumping on Testa to ultimately stop you from dying. And you can tell it’s not a bus because the Scum clearly intended to win the game D4 with the fake guilty on Koba.

[Andresvmb]

andres do u have any scum games i could look at. ill explain after why

2837
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[Andresvmb]

The Testa wagon had VPB and NPOM on it. Are you trying to say that was Town motivated? Are you for real?

[Andresvmb]

And it’s the other way around. Once you were saved, and Testa had been mis-executed, then VPB comes out with a guilty on a player *not* you. That’s clearly a straight attempt at a win, and confirms that the wagon the day before was pure. Otherwise, you would have been the check, as the counter wagon to a close Town execution.

[Andresvmb]

The Testa wagon had VPB and NPOM on it. Are you trying to say that was Town motivated? Are you for real?

Well I know it had 3 town players on it.

And it's interesting to note that VPB was on the Testa wagon but not your wagon. :thonk:

pedit: VPB didn't claim a guilty on me because in case the plan goes awry (which it did) it's way better for the scumteam to have Koba be conftown than for me to be conftown.

2905
2907

Not everything is as straightforward as just putting a vote down. But you did defend VPB far more than I ever did, and you at one point trying to ridicule me for backing off my near Confirmed Town stance. Or do you forget that interaction?

[Andresvmb]

^were trying*

[Andresvmb]

Okay Andres is VPB "nearly confirmed town" or about "50/50"? You can't have it both ways.

I didn’t say it was a 50/50. I said it’s “no better” than a 50/50. But thanks for the misrepresentation there.

No, you said "not much better than 50/50":

VPB is not much better than a 50/50

That means it's close to 50/50. Being "not much better than 50/50" is way different from being "nearly confirmed town"!

And you still haven't answered why you said we need to "get it right" between me and NPOM if you think both of us are scum.

Here.

[Andresvmb]

Those posts were just distancing without substance. And my issue wasn't you not having VPB as conftown, my issue was that you were contradicting yourself. But nice try at a misrep.

Right, because VPB also voted you. Oh wait, they actually chose Testa as the actual correct vote instead of you when it mattered.

[Andresvmb]

And I’m obviously not even including the NK’s which all seem to have been of players that actually would have sided with me against you. You know, like Datisi or Ico (instead of say Hellbooks or Koba at one point). But I won’t push that too hard because NK’s carry a lot of WIFOM.

[Andresvmb]

my issue was that you were contradicting yourself.

So you were happy to ridicule my point, but not actually try to engage with it at all. Even though I was attacking the guy you’re now actually calling Confirmed Scum.

[Andresvmb]

And why didn’t you vote for me yesterday, when I had a 1v1 with you? I’ll answer it for you - Because you needed more positive Town plays (or plays that could be spun that way), because you were going to lose the 1v1 yesterday. Instead of voting what should have been the “Confirmed Scum” from your POV. Never mind that VPB tried his hardest to disqualify my 1v1 with you.

[Andresvmb]

When it mattered, VPB pushed in your favor and against other Town players (Me/Testa). And I explained my logic clearly yesterday, which Ico agreed with.

[Andresvmb]

The idea that I’m setting up a Town player is absurd. C’mon, you can at least admit it. It doesn’t make any sense. If I’m Scum, then surely Alduskkel is Town and NPOM probably too. How is it not easier for me to bus DkKoba if they’re my Partner, have VPB NK’ed, and not try and sway a Town vote onto NPOM for example in what is STILL ELo?

Nice try.

[Andresvmb]

Yes it is a better bet. You’re just not being objective because you are in the 1v1. There’s never been any serious voting action around you or DkKoba. All we have is your word. We have had serious voting action around my slot and Alduskkel. It’s all there man.

All we have is my word?

There are literally multiple times I've proven my claim. You admit yourself I am a PT cop. There is no way in hell scum have a PT cop AND a role cop vs. 2 masons and a tracker.

There are clear events beyond my word people can look to, which are more reliable than any voting record business.

And this is the obvious attempt from VPB at disqualifying my 1v1. Just in case people can’t easily find it.

[Andresvmb]

Then it’s *even* easier for me. I could have just tried to bury Koba with their vote against Testa. Instead, I avoided the 50/50 completely, and said that I thought VPB was Scummier when Hellbooks asked (though I did think it was a tough choice then).

[Andresvmb]

I’ll be around to answer any questions from Hellbooks/Koba, but I don’t have to explain myself to Scum that is trying to misinterpret everything I’m saying.

[Andresvmb]

Or your scumteam decided to go for both VPB vs Koba and you vs me to see which bait the town finds tastier. Add some distancing in for good measure and voila.

This is pretty bad as a strategy, but you have to spin it some way so I get it.

[Andresvmb]

I may ask you to unvote and let me vote aldu andres. just to assuage people that its not an attempt to blitz on them.

Btw Koba if I’m Scum and Alduskkel is Town, I absolutely push for you to do this yesterday instead of delay my push for the next day. Instead, here was my response: 3756. In case you needed anything else.

[Andresvmb]

Koba just put the vote back and watch nothing happen, because again I’m obviously Town.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, I would have really liked to have been able to prove that I’m the same alignment as Koba, but I guess it’ll have to wait.

[Andresvmb]

Is anybody going to ask me anything in this setup, or are we just wasting time?

[Andresvmb]

andres if u are scum here i am giving u big kudos bc holy fk u carried hard with npom/vp as partners

I’m not Scum. I would have given up on at least 2 different opportunities to win the game as Scum. And I would have taken very many insults and abuse in the Scum chat had I done that.

[Andresvmb]

yeah i guess realistically i dont actually see it mattering whether or not we go VP today or tomorrow, the additional NK could be bad or good, i dont really see it having a big impact either way

This I agree with. I actually think it’s beneficial for you and Koba to agree on a solution and simply go through with it. Because VPB is the easy vote. It’s not going to change the outcome of the game unless you can sort out which one out of Aldus/Me you would vote.

[Andresvmb]

FUCK

aldus last post is kinda TOWNY ngl but thats like more so wthin chat mafia tbh

If you’re swayed by AtE at the end of the game instead of everything that’s already happened then that’ll be pretty sad.

Listen for me, the game is solved. So I’m at peace. But you guys have to put down the votes that will actually decide the game.