Newbie 2051: Iceland! - End!


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Post Post #2029 (isolation #400) » Sun Feb 07, 2021 6:37 pm

Post by Prism »

In post 2012, Spartan117 wrote:My town read on floo was not based off any read on you or quiet and im not sure as to why you keep insinuating that, saying that its somehow unfair that i townread him but didnt you because you both did similar things doesnt make everything the same
I think you're missing the point here. I'm not saying that it's necessarily comparative; I get why you townread him in a vacuum.

But why did those same qualities not register for me/quiet? This isn't comparative-I'm thinking about why "floo has those qualities -> townread floo" "prism/quiet have these qualities -> don't townread them". I think you go into this a bit, but I want to be clear about what I was asking.

I think your point about floo being a major Frederick alternative is a good one!

I think saying revisiting Day 3 and realizing me/quiet were giving more/better reads than you gave credit for is understandable. I also get that you were worried about us being LAMIST, but do you see the difficulty here? Your thought process here is somewhat plausible but very general and had gaps that are general enough to make them easy to fill in now, but difficult to verify the veracity of. I'm wondering if you can be a bit more specific as to how your interpretations about me and quiet differed Day 2/Day 3, rather than just giving us the general overview. You kept the floo read coming into Day 3 even after seeing Frederick flip, after all.

Another example of being more specific that I'm really curious about is the "solid enough reason" to trust quiet is that you're alluding to in 2015
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Post Post #2030 (isolation #401) » Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:08 pm

Post by Prism »

Working my way back through the flow trap ISO I'm pretty struck by how different the floo we have now is from the first few pages, where he's a lot more lighthearted/easygoing in his first "serious" vote on flow trap.

I'm more trying to read for flow trap specifically atm but things like that, the vote, and interactions like the below have me wanting to compare the interactions between the slots from floo's side.
In post 135, flow trap wrote:
In post 134, floo wrote:
You townread three people who have voted you.
I started the wagon. safebet made a point of putting you a step away from death.
Spartan voted you for no stated reason other than "pressure"
(). In particular, I find the Spartan townread strange
because he has posted only three times
, but you find him "genuine" (). Meanwhile, you are scumreading esotericzoomer (implied in ),
who is the person who has questioned the votes on you a lot
while staying away from an explicit townread. Do you think the wagon on you has a legitimate or beneficial purpose?
I fail to see the relevance

This is a valid reason

The "I'm so confused" card is not one I find town and also it felt like a pocket attempt

To answer your question, yes; pressure is a valid reason and it has clearly benefited us as it was a good means for a discussion
(I think this is minorly +town for flow trap but I more just want to point out that I think we haven't really put much attention towards the floo side of interactions...which, granted, he isn't confirmed yet to anyone else, but uhhhh)
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Post Post #2031 (isolation #402) » Sun Feb 07, 2021 7:15 pm

Post by Prism »

I'm going to pass out so I'll come back to this but early game flow trap matches up pretty well to his Part 1 wall, granted he's definitely citing his own posts as he goes, but I already feel a lot better about him just from seeing the early floo interactions.
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Post Post #2032 (isolation #403) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:09 am

Post by Prism »

Flow trap, how is the rest of the wall coming?
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Post Post #2035 (isolation #404) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:39 am

Post by Prism »

Do you have any thoughts on 2027/2030 quiet?

Me not being around until super late last night didn't really help, but I'll be around after work to finish up going through flow trap.

I'm pretty close to wanting to end the day but I do think looking at the floo side of interactions before Day 3 is worth taking a closer look at.
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Post Post #2038 (isolation #405) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:42 am

Post by Prism »

I've also done a lot of thinking on claim order for Day 3.

I think it should go flow trap -> Spartan -> quiet. If we're in a no doc world it might not matter, but if floo flips roleblocker, suddenly we're put in a position to where we want to make someone guess what to claim. I think it wouldn't surprise us regardless of who Spartan winds up cc'ing, but if it's flow trap we want to make him take the 50/50 of clearing Spartan.
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Post Post #2040 (isolation #406) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:44 am

Post by Prism »

In post 2036, quiet wrote:This is Spartian's first post of today.


Do you think that Spartian is still defending floo here + trying to play for a win?

idk, it's giving me uninformed vibes
It gives me the exact opposite lmao. He's feeling around for the daystart and is open the possibility of floo without openly flipping the read immediately or really pondering the alternatives
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Post Post #2042 (isolation #407) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 9:46 am

Post by Prism »

Actually if there's a doctor and they're not on me tonight I don't know what they're smoking
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Post Post #2047 (isolation #408) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:02 am

Post by Prism »

I think it's really hard to diagnose a specific motive in the question. He could be preparing to push you, he could be feeling things out/seeing if there's holes to push either against you or against me, or he just wants to seem plausibly sorting and dialoguing without much ulterior motive.

My point was more just that it's not really +town, especially in comparison to floo/flow trap. Pushing flow trap is an idea but I went right for the throat, forced the 1v1 the moment I was sure, and flow trap definitely kicked it up a notch well before Spartan really got his grip on the day.
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Post Post #2048 (isolation #409) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:03 am

Post by Prism »

you/flow trap*

damn oo sounds
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Post Post #2050 (isolation #410) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:05 am

Post by Prism »

I definitely agree that flow trap can be bussing but he's played today well, his analysis isn't bad at all, and Spartan's day is....extremely questionable, and prior days weren't exactly home runs with the "TvS" and "scum on the wagon" but being unable to really back those up coherently.
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Post Post #2052 (isolation #411) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:11 am

Post by Prism »

I don't want to prognosticate too much into someone who's clearly given up, but I feel like floo is not just trying to give 0 info but actually frustrated. This could be fake, but I don't think he has that much reason to be if it's you or flow trap, and there's definitely no reason to give up on the day entirely if Spartan's vote is still on the table.

Neither of them played badly at all before today but for whatever reason the wheels have really come off the wagon. I'm going to finish up on flow trap/do the floo interactions, but for my part from everything I've seen I'm think it's just Spartan. I'm not asking you to sheep me 100% beyond the grave, again the name of the game is not "blindly follow the SE", but I really don't see much reason to townread this slot other than for pure effort...and harddefending a scum slot.

flow trap's day is arguably NAI but it's definitely not scummy imo. The last 48 hours of Day 2 was really,
really
bad but the rest has been pretty fucking good, even if his playstyle is frustrating sometimes, we know that he's like this as town too.
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Post Post #2053 (isolation #412) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:13 am

Post by Prism »

The N1 Esoteric kill was also interesting from a Spartan POV but given that scum often shoot for vague PR feelings, I still see it, would need to go back to read how Esoteric felt about floo.
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Post Post #2054 (isolation #413) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:13 am

Post by Prism »

Okay I have to get back to work but I WILL BE BACK LATER, feel free to shoot ideas and I'll answer when I get off
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Post Post #2055 (isolation #414) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 10:15 am

Post by Prism »

As a side note I'm pretty happy with this day; I definitely strongarmed this but I think today is where my style's strengths have really gotten to shine. It's extremely difficult to maintain legitimate realtime dialogue as scum, and we've just been able to sharpen and sanity check each other's ideas for a week straight. This shit is impossible to play against as scum and it's why running interference and being present is so important, like I came into today still leaning Spartan town and now it seems virtually impossible for it to be anyone but Spartan.
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Post Post #2060 (isolation #415) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:14 am

Post by Prism »

In post 2057, floo wrote:Prism, you have the clear advantage in this situation and if town should have already stopped playing the "annoyed" card, and
you stop thinking you can explain all my posts.
I have talked about my past motives, often citing personal experience or a specific thought process you have no idea of. You're trying to irritate me at this point, while I am trying to be calm,
it seems that you have learned nothing from the Sal drama while I have learned a lot.
I am literally confirmed mafia and you're upset that I am wrong (?) about the motivations behind your posts and upset that I...am making mistakes as town? What "lessons" does scum me have to learn from the Sal drama?

If anyone wants to me to respond to the full wall I can but unless someone actually thinks I might be scum I don't see why I need to keep doing this, if he's legitimately upset that I'm like, pushing him for a reason he thinks is wrong or dumb or w/e in his mind, I'd rather just let it be.
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Post Post #2061 (isolation #416) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 11:17 am

Post by Prism »

Like I am sorry if you feel that Salsabil was legitimately scummy and that I was wrong to push you for that but you're not an infallible god of the scum alignment and I'm not stupid for voting you.

I'm going to drop this but if you want we can revisit it postgame/dead thread.
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Post Post #2066 (isolation #417) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:00 pm

Post by Prism »

I read that quote later and thought "This is the dumbest way I could have possibly thought of to say I don't think this is SvS"

The kill depends a lot on who my partner would be. I don't think it would be the worst if were quiet. With you it's pretty workable but Spartan might be a better NK? Gives me a lot of freedom to push/bus as necessary. With Spartan I think that or killing quiet would both be pretty viable. With floo I probably just kill you because Spartan already thinks floo is town, and fairy/quiet are both not voting the other of me/floo the second one of us flips whereas you're a lot less unpredictable.
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Post Post #2068 (isolation #418) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:07 pm

Post by Prism »

It's pretty tough to pin down slots that aren't really voteable as scum in my position, I think I would have had the most difficulty with quiet given that I'd be kicking the ball to someone else to push while waiting to blitz, but the pushes on that slot have all been super weak and aren't likely to gain traction without me.

I'm trying to take this seriously since you seem to think it's worth asking but yeah, really depends on who my partner would be and how I feel we're set up going into Day 3.
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Post Post #2069 (isolation #419) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:13 pm

Post by Prism »

ie. the difference between quiet and fairy FMPOV would be that Fairy has a good chance of getting voted by floo, quiet I don't think there was anyone really that was really pushing that slot except for the Spartan vote near the end of Day 2
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Post Post #2070 (isolation #420) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:39 pm

Post by Prism »

This also just depends on a lot of mechanical factors, here I'm assuming I get to shoot whoever but is there a doctor? Who have we roleblocked previous nights? No killing in a no doc world is also a very strong play.
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Post Post #2071 (isolation #421) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 12:46 pm

Post by Prism »

I'm going to take a nap but I'll be back in an hour or two and I can try to wrap up the last things I want to tackle before N4
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Post Post #2080 (isolation #422) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:35 pm

Post by Prism »

I typed up a response to both of those walls but honestly I'd rather see what other people say. If he's going to finally risk giving out partner tells, I'll take him up on it and let everyone else jump in. If anyone finds any of that interesting/plausible I can address it.

I'll answer the claim bit which is that you want scum to claim opposite of you here in a doctor world. If you're left as uncc'd doctor, we can actually vote outside to try to get mechanical confirmation via hitting the roleblocker. If they claim doctor, they risk getting cc'd by a 3rd party and basically getting instavoted. I am VT, so this does not apply.
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Post Post #2081 (isolation #423) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:36 pm

Post by Prism »

I'll save it if anyone wants it later, but I'd rather see Spartan/quiet respond.
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Post Post #2084 (isolation #424) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:41 pm

Post by Prism »

I mean it's up to y'all, if you think it would somehow help sort today go for it, but I would say tomorrow.

Doctor world means I might get to stick around but depends on A) One existing B) Not getting roleblocked
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Post Post #2086 (isolation #425) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:47 pm

Post by Prism »

Do you have any issue with my claim order/see why I prefer that?

I just don't think it makes much of a difference if Spartan potentially picks his cc by going second, but it makes a whole lot of difference if you/quiet wind up CCing.
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Post Post #2087 (isolation #426) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 3:59 pm

Post by Prism »

The ideal world here is like, 1/4 times floo flips RB. I get saved (pls) or they shoot outside for doctor. Scum forced to guess where to cc. Please do not paranoia vote me.

The 3/4 world is floo flips goon and we get nothing, yeet. I may or may not be around Day 4 depending on RB existing/using correctly.
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Post Post #2088 (isolation #427) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 4:36 pm

Post by Prism »

This is actually pretty curious to me.
In post 227, flow trap wrote:As I've stated it's easier to read people who interact with you, and I was also weary of a pocket attempt how they read me barely affects thing.
The second part lines up decently with your play this game but I'm curious as to the first-you haven't really been as eager to jump into direct interactions or discuss other slots directly with people. What are the type of interactions you're referring to here/how have you used those to inform your reads?

This was to Salsabil after you voted her if you need the context.
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Post Post #2089 (isolation #428) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:31 pm

Post by Prism »

flow trap's progression on Salsabil is actually shockingly crisp.

Conversation encapsulated in 227 later leads to a revote in 368 and from here we get the slapfight. 396 where he recognizes that Salsabil might be being dismissive/laughing it off as town instead of being scum is good.

The part that throws me is that posts like 420 (blaze) seem to be scumreading the dismissiveness, victim tone, etc. from Salsabil while this is mentioned in part 2 of The Great Wall:
In post 1716, flow trap wrote:I still stand by the fact that town is more defensive, or a least I am as town. Floo -> Annoyed Sarcasm -> Towny, same as previously mentioned (also reinforcing opinion). (Can’t include what I was going to say here).
This comes right after talking about Salsabil, so it's unclear whether or not the first sentence is referring to Salsabil or floo. I think the definition of "defensive" here lends itself more towards the latter, there's a distinction between being overly explanatory or a bit biting and dismissive/playing the victim.

Overall I feel like this progression is pretty good? Finds the same stuff scummy that floo pushed on but the difference is that flow trap actually allows for the possibility that they can be upset and indignant as town, and swaps off later as explained in part 3. Bonus that it's for a similar thing with dismissiveness, though Spartan is much more about just throwing flow trap into the anti-town bucket for the sake of it whereas Salsabil had a much more protracted engagement.

...And this actually lines up really well with the line of questioning with Salsabil in 666:
In post 666, flow trap wrote:
In post 665, Salsabil Faria wrote:
In post 663, quiet wrote:Or maybe salsa is just the god of formatting and I’m letting my naked jealousy of their posting technique color my opinion.

Well either way, high effort high quality easy to understand posts gets a +town from me.
Hoping no one is trying to pocket me here :wink:
Actually, that's why I asked about Spartan :shifty:
(This comes right after flow asks Salsabil about Spartan specifically) and right about this time flow trap shifts to a slight townread.

Their reasoning for rescinding that claim for a bit later, only given in Part 4, is on the basis that flow trap PR read them and didn't want them shot. This PRR explanation is consistent with everything flow trap said in the other parts of the wall, even though it's not really given at the time.

More slapfighting gets followed up with a vote, no shocker there, doesn't really get explained in the wall but...yeah. Claiming the light TR was a bluff in 1333 isn't great but it looked more like coming from a place of suspecting Spartan than actually townreading Salsabil, especially with the PR read.

tl;dr: chaos god actually has some order inside holy shit
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Post Post #2090 (isolation #429) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:35 pm

Post by Prism »

I'm going to be up all night doing this shit because I get the feeling I'm going to have bigger fish to fry closer to deadline now that floo has actually started trying so someone keep me company

First I'm actually amazed that this lines up even remotely well, but also that was one slot out of 12 and at some point I'm probably just going to have to settle for like, just tracing through the reads on floo/quiet/Spartan and maybe Frederick. I've already seen a bit of his thoughts on Spartan while tracking through Salsabil, and it's not halfbad and has some good depth to it.
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Post Post #2091 (isolation #430) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:40 pm

Post by Prism »

I just want to note I have grad school applications due next Monday that I have barely worked on so shooting me is doing us all a huge favor

If you think I won't sacrifice my health, sleep, and personal lifegoals to win a mafia game, I am warning you now, you are absolutely wrong so spare us both
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Post Post #2092 (isolation #431) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:46 pm

Post by Prism »

The other thing that sells the PRR read on Salsabil as being legitimate is this:
In post 397, flow trap wrote:
In post 395, Enchant wrote:Maybe you should give some ways/ask me questions, and my head start working, otherwise i will just blindly walk here.
What do you think of Salsa+Zoomer interactions?
flow trap should explain more of why he asked this question if he legitimately thought they were masons but this majorly reinforces the legitimacy of his Salsabil progression, the remaining question would be if that's why he shot Zoomer.
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Post Post #2093 (isolation #432) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:52 pm

Post by Prism »

I honestly don't even know why I am bothering to do this considering floo decided to show back up and actually fight the vote only when it became obvious Spartan wasn't going to be proactive or really do anything and was likely to be instavoted Day 4, but we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
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Post Post #2094 (isolation #433) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:54 pm

Post by Prism »

quiet, I know you're worried about flow trap, but what are your specific fears for him here?

My specific fear is he didn't do shit at the end of Day 2, and arguably the brashness/failed bluffs are scum bullshit. The latter we definitely have him on record doing as town.

On the other hand that Salsabil read was really,
really
fucking good and I find it hard to believe floo doesn't just keep AFK prod dodging if it's flow trap.
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Post Post #2095 (isolation #434) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 5:56 pm

Post by Prism »

Eh I guess floo has incentive to play it out regardless of which is scum, it doesn't really
hurt
to show up if it's flow trap here, but still.
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Post Post #2096 (isolation #435) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:22 pm

Post by Prism »

If quiet is scum I am actually going to chuck my laptop out a window

That's not an expression of a shifting read, it's just the knowledge that the last thing missing from this being a Prism Instant Classic is piledriving the game into a loss with a bad townread, and I will fucking scream
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Post Post #2097 (isolation #436) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 6:56 pm

Post by Prism »

Tracing through the floo interactions I'm again less inclined to believe it is flow trap. This one is pretty straightforward.

Early page interactions have floo voting flow trap to drive content, serious vote business, and several good followups with floo/flow trap make for decent theater. Nothing really definitive. flow trap keeps the townread for this basically forever, which I think makes sense, especially since they both kind of come together in suspecting Salsabil for awhile, with flow trap giving a
lot
more leeway for Salsabil to actually be town as noted previously.

The most concerning thing is that the one read flow trap really goes indepth for is the townread on floo in 1338, basically for the above. I obviously disagreed after awhile that the start was that AI, and didn't like the lukewarm stance, but this read both makes sense and has nuance.

The thing that sticks out to me is 1518 confirms both myself and floo as top townreads (tragic). My townread gets briefly mentioned a few times but gets backed up by the wall more than flow trap's posting at the time, which isn't great but is ~fine~. This just makes so much more sense for why flow trap was willing to go to bat to sell this read to me to protect one TR from another. One way to view this is as harddefending a partner, but another is the chaos god...actually trying to bring harmony to the realm.

His progression today on why he's 90% floo/10% me isn't quite as opaque but I can kind of piece it together from the walls/reactions to a few posts even if he's not explicitly explaining

tl;dr: early interactions w/ floo kinda good. floo defense day 2 bad, but pretty understandable. less opaque today but can piece it together
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Post Post #2098 (isolation #437) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:08 pm

Post by Prism »

I'm basically ready for day to end pending questions for me/feedback on where I'm at.

I do not think it is quiet. I do not think it is flow trap. Blindly following the SE in 3 way is not conducive to developing good habits, and is not how I want to encourage you to play 3 way over something more engaging and that encourages you to really think critically as players. If you disagree with me, drill down and figure out
why
. And if I am wrong dear god am I sorry that I am like this.

That said I think it is just Spartan and I am down to talk about whatever people feel they need feedback on all day tomorrow, whether that's last minute doubts on me or something that bothers you about another slot.

Please do not wait to vote an hour before deadline, 1. This is how dumb adrenaline/emotional votes get made 2. This gives us time to actually talk about the vote that does get placed before someone else hammers

(
@SPARTAN PLEASE be around tomorrow if you are town/talk more with us, esp. near deadline, really curious where you think I'm going wrong/if you have any reactions to the floo arguments
.)
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Post Post #2099 (isolation #438) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:35 pm

Post by Prism »

I had a huge paragraph here. I will save it for tomorrow when the vote goes through. I still have work to do.

Instead I'll just say that while having me sanity check/give reads is important, it's more important for whoever is town to link up directly. I will help however I can, but this game is not about me and not everything can go through me.

Goodnight, see y'all in the morning.
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Post Post #2101 (isolation #439) » Mon Feb 08, 2021 7:52 pm

Post by Prism »

just realize i used opaque twice instead of transparent w/r/t flow trap's read on floo

you get what i mean
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Post Post #2110 (isolation #440) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:27 am

Post by Prism »

In post 2107, quiet wrote:Prism, the thing that has made me by far most uncomfortable today is that
I cannot fathom for the damn life of me why today plays out the way it did when floo is scum
, but I can understand it from you; scum you is targeting floo here, killing Fairy to keep a smart voice away to keep them from catching on/fucking up the vibe today
[/quote]It feels like a core assumption you're making here is that scumteams simply don't randomly fall apart, everything is controlled and operating smoothly at least partly how they planned it. This is not correct. Scum teams fall apart all the time under pressure, and suddenly the wheels fall off the wagon.

It is easy now to look at how disastrous this Day 3 has been for a floo/Spartan team and say "Why on earth would they pick this?", but this was not information available to them overnight. Me pushing floo was expected, but I don't think flow trap coming out swinging, me forcing the 1v1 2 days in and removing flow trap as a voting option entirely by voting early, and most importantly Spartan getting completely overwhelmed by the sheer amount of content being put out by the other 3, is so easily predictable. Spartan has noticeably had real life get in the way, which sucks, but unfortunately you have to be here to throw wrenches in things or risk getting left behind.

floo opted to not even remotely try for 4+ days of the game until it was clear that Spartan would do nothing and 3 way was almost certainly lost. Suddenly, it became worth it to mount a defense in Elo. This wasn't just bad/apathetic play as town, or him not having the time, it was clearly intentional. He would show up just to say something
to his cc
and then dip for another 24 hours.
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Post Post #2112 (isolation #441) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 6:32 am

Post by Prism »

For the tonal stuff, it is useful to go back to one of the floo quotes you're responding to.
In post 2073, floo wrote:
In post 1891, Prism wrote:
In post 1886, quiet wrote:also at this point you are just teasing me, i'm going to have so many emotions if the mod interactions are a play.

like I know it's totally in bounds, but god.
I mean, given the concrete reads I've given this game and the concrete flips, what do you think?

I can go through the history behind me/ffery if someone wants but that's not really the concern here imo.
These posts by Prism which are like "remember I'm town!" give off the air of self-confident, even arrogant town.
This post is willfully ignorant of the fact that scum can easily get all their flipped townreads correct. I recently realized that I don't remember so many of these kinds of posts on D1. He transitioned from a helpful diplomat and voice of experience on D1 to parading himself as the town savior who was getting stressed and annoyed. @quiet, do you agree? I see it as a pretended attitude change, which created an unfriendly environment (even without Prism pushing me).
If you revisit the conversation above, my point wasn't that I was town because my reads were right. My point was that you had focused almost entirely on the tonal/emotional side of my play without tracking the quality/legitimacy of my reads and progressions.

ie. If my emotions can be faked, there's another half of the game that you can use to help solve with.

You shifting gears to that is exactly what I don't want as scum-I want you hook line and sinker on the tone-but here I think it would help and more importantly, I wanted to see you work through it because going "They just feel so town!" as scum is easy, and I don't want you to get away with it that easily. When you didn't really tackle that side of it, I got progressively more antsy, but this isn't a side of the game as refined in your toolset yet, and it's important that I understand and work around that.
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Post Post #2113 (isolation #442) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:10 am

Post by Prism »

It is incredibly difficult for me to tackle the "What if literally everything is theater?" angle without a more specific criticism.

You've brought up me talking with with fferyllt a few times now, so maybe it is worth explaining the history here.

The most important game in understanding me as a town player is Dystopia!, which fferyllt modded.

This game was the first one where my absolute obsession with winning came out. I spent day after day after day constantly pouring back through the ISOs of every single player, asking questions, demanding explanations, etc. I was a universal TR, all of the town let me unilaterally pick the vote, and I tunneled one player (Elbirn) who just refused to engage with the game. I singlehandedly blew two miselims, and we lost. I was devastated. This game has haunted me for years. This was the game that drove me to swap my style around completely to accommodate others.

There were entire pages of me talking to myself, alone, while ffery would post thing like this: "Everyone but Prism has been prodded. :eek:"

Where I saw a town I catastrophically failed and shut out by being too demanding, others like Regfan and fferyllt, saw a strong town player that simply needed a bit more help.

By the time I came back to forum mafia in 2020, I had entirely swapped my approach, leading to posts like this one where I describe my goals as a player.

I ran into fferyllt again in illicit substances mafia. We exchanged this sequence of posts:
In post 295, morph the cat wrote:Now we live in a world where I have to actually content-sort Prism... assuming content arrives.

I really don't see the game as of yet being toxic or very long, and so apathy seems a little pre-mature.

Come shine for me, Prism.
In post 508, morph the cat wrote:
In post 497, Prism wrote:I don't think my 454 comes close to answering your (Bell's) questions without really committing myself to more than I feel in reality.

I do want to challenge the morph townread. Taking a strong scum presence is likely to be extremely important this game-you can't just sit on the backfoot. Ffery might legitimately be excited to get to play with me, but the motivational "Shine!" stuff feels a bit off to me. I definitely started off a bit more confident in Dystopia but the focused, obsessive play came much later. In Midscummer Night's Dream it never really happened at all, though it's hard to separate mine and nancy's effort because we didn't really sign.
I can see why they probably liked my Dystopia play, but honestly that game is more vivid to me because I
singlehandedly lost my team the game
with my intensity.


Do they actually want me to shine or are they just saying it? I don't really know. I think the pressure for content is okay but perhaps overwrought.
Prism, I want to play with that person. You were impressive despite the loss. You went up against scum-Jingle in an anonymous alt, which I wouldn't wish on anyone, and you came that little bit short mostly due to a town that flaked way more than you deserved.


Though modding that game did help me eventually see scum-Jingle in a different anonymous alt in an anon game I played a few weeks later. Mostly because the play was identifiable Jingle as well as scum-Jingle after having a ringside seat for a few weeks.
This exchange, and the expectations ffery seemed to have for me, was a huge part of what threw me into such a gigantic depression, and in the end I shut down entirely and flaked from the game.

Fferyllt realized I really didn't like this, backed off from it and didn't press me so hard the next time we played in Xenoblade (very limited interactions), or when she rolled scum against me in 2181. I really appreciated that. But I know she still thinks it, I know she wants to see me the Dystopia-Prism come out, and in some ways it has. Some things haven't changed. I still get overemotional, obsessive, and can be difficult to keep up with. But there's a very real difference here, which is that I will do
whatever it takes
to help set up the other town players for success.

I don't think ffery looks at my increased willingness to defer or my drive to work with others and thinks it's a bad thing, which is where the joke in 1813 comes in. But Dystopia was a mistake, there are better ways to do things, and I have spent years stewing on that game thinking how I could have gotten more out of Elbirn/Mulch, rather than making the game "Shut up and vote who Prism wants" and blaming them when I get it wrong.

All of that said, this game is not Dystopia, despite the parallels. None of you are Elbirn or Mulch, and the history does not matter. And fundamentally, all that matters is that we win, this is not some grand test of my mafia philosophy, and I don't think ffery would disagree that I've made improvements since 2017.
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Post Post #2115 (isolation #443) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:17 am

Post by Prism »

Okay, glad to hear you've leveled out a bit...of course you waited until AFTER I typed the selfindulgent Wall of Painful Memories. (Kidding, it's okay)
In post 2105, quiet wrote:good lord if you are scum here tmmrw is going to be hell on me).
So I wanted to revisit this since it suggests you're still really unsure about flow trap, did you look over me tracking his progressions at all? We've just discussed the limitations here but I both think they're really good and it's a good skill to develop.
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Post Post #2116 (isolation #444) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 7:18 am

Post by Prism »

flow trap, I'm taking the lack of questions as meaning you don't really want to dialogue with me on quiet atm or have anything for me re: me/floo. As always, let me know if that changes.
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Post Post #2126 (isolation #445) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:15 am

Post by Prism »

So I don't have too much to say about the above. I'm glad to see us getting on the same page. I think my stance is pretty clear. I don't really think me hammering my stance into you over just leaving you to keep solving is the call.

I will be around to give feedback as needed+requested.

I think waiting for floo is understandable but I would also encourage you to keep in mind that he again spent ~4 days not just being apathetic but outright refusing to interact with anyone outside of his cc. Given that, I'd rather not wait until an hour to deadline, both to avoid chaos and give us time to react/talk about any votes that get put down, but it is very easy for me to say that knowing what the result is and that it will not get blitzed. I would strongly push voting at least 2 hours before if not more.

I do think keeping the day going until we hear what Spartan thinks about floo's latest posts is a good idea, unless it requires waiting an hour before deadline, in which case, sorry dude but no.
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Post Post #2131 (isolation #446) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:54 am

Post by Prism »

I mean I think the biggest value to you voting early would be confirming that the team would have to be exactly me/you, but arguably with Spartan AWOL we don't even get that, so it's fine to hold off imo.

I can also definitely unvote at some point if I'm not ready for end, will be around up through deadline, but we would need a third vote for it to end anyway.
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Post Post #2132 (isolation #447) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:55 am

Post by Prism »

That said it would be nice if Spartan both checked in and we punched this before 9 EST because then I wouldn't have to skip my workout a second day in a row, but we do what we have to do.
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Post Post #2135 (isolation #448) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 8:59 am

Post by Prism »

In post 2133, floo wrote:No, I believe it is bad strategy. I won't bet on Spartan flipping Mafia roleblocker (even assuming he is scum, a 1/4 chance. More like a 1/2 chance if you can find a reason to believe a Doctor/roleblocker exists) and Doctor successfully protects (a no kill is not a sure help, either).

♪ Take me down to the WIFOM city ♪
♪ Where it might be quiet or it might be Sparty ♪
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Post Post #2141 (isolation #449) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:03 am

Post by Prism »

I'm sitting here F5ing in the hopes of Spartan coming back around.

This is like the ending of Halo 3 where Master Chief gets cut off from the rest of humanity via the wormhole, is presumed dead, and in reality is simply drifting until the time is right to save humanity once more
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Post Post #2142 (isolation #450) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:04 am

Post by Prism »

Don't get me wrong Spartan, I know you said you've been dealing with a lot, and I believe you, but your presence would be extremely welcome.
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Post Post #2145 (isolation #451) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 10:38 am

Post by Prism »

In post 2144, floo wrote:lol I forgot they would've quickhammered at this point
In post 1986, floo wrote:No unvote, no quickhammer. VOTE: Prism. If it needed to be said, both of us are confirmed scum from each other's town! POVs.
Image

I'm gonna miss you buddy, at least for a few days
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Post Post #2146 (isolation #452) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 11:24 am

Post by Prism »

Nothing else to talk about, just waiting on floo/Spartan?
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Post Post #2148 (isolation #453) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:17 pm

Post by Prism »

If Spartan checks in and isn't able to give something until later, me/flow trap can swap and I can just revote at deadline

I don't want to skip my workout again but as long as it's not going to waffle I can 100% place a vote on my phone or something.
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Post Post #2151 (isolation #454) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:23 pm

Post by Prism »

As much as we hate to steal steal ffery’s thunder, it should now be obvious: The game is over, and the scumteam has won. I understand that this loss is probably crushing. You have all played your hearts out, only to come up short.

You have to understand that you all played an excellent game-far, far better than you had any right to as new players. I am extremely proud of several of you in particular for the clear improvement shown over the course of the game.

Despite how it may seem, and despite the clean sweep, this game was not easy, and you did not just get steamrolled. You played well, extremely well, particularly from Day 2 on.
You have to understand that with how much strength and tenacity you showed, you left me no option except to crush you completely. You gave me no other choice. I simply could not afford to go easy on you. If I had given anything less than my all, I would have lost. If you think I am just being humble, or you don’t take my word for it, I am sure that fferyllt will have more to say.

I took detailed notes with extensive commentary, allowing you to see exactly what my thought process was throughout the game and what I was aiming for on a post-by-post basis. It was my hope these wind up being educational for you, both in strengthening your towngames and as a resource to draw on in your scumgames. I look forward to providing you all with individualized feedback very soon, along with a generalized summary of what I think were the most important takeaways/turning points in the game. Thank you for pushing me to the absolute limit. It was a pleasure playing with you all, and I look forward to seeing where you go from here.

Simultaneously, I can promise you that I do not look forward to our inevitable rematch.
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Post Post #2152 (isolation #455) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:23 pm

Post by Prism »

It is going to be tempting to give me the spotlight for this win, but Spartan was absolutely essential and probably the single best scum partner I have ever had. He played well Day 1, he came in clutch Day 2, and he did exactly what was needed of him to win Day 3. Becoming obvious mafia and seeming like he might be bussing floo was intentional, and is what got us over the final hill needed to secure the elimination. I took the more visible role, but this was 100% a team effort and I was only able to succeed because Spartan was so selfless in his play. It was a joy to be his teammate, to play with him, and time and time again he raised the bar for what level of play to expect from him. He filled in the gaps, he covered for me, and he made sure that we brought this home.
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Post Post #2162 (isolation #456) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:47 pm

Post by Prism »

In post 2157, quiet wrote:hey hey!

thanks for an amazing game everyone. Sorry I was somewhat checked out towards the end; I think I really should have been able to find a Spartian vote today.

by far the most fun I've had playing mafia so far, and I've got a lot to learn from this game. Sorry to town for not being able to let go of my read on Prism.
It is easy to blame yourself for being pocketed and not finding the right vote, but as you will see upon PT release, there is another measure that's important: The sheer amount of time, attention, and effort that the scumteam is spending playing specifically around you.
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Post Post #2165 (isolation #457) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:52 pm

Post by Prism »

This post absolutely ruined my life.
In post 1346, fairyprincess69 wrote:gonna make a quick note here that as of page 30, spartan townreads Enchant according to his #746, while the wagon is pretty firmly on enchant. interested to see if he will commit to defending his townread or just let him die (i think he had been compiling this reads posts for sometime while the wagon was forming, so he might not have caught up with the events of the game yet)

his analysis of Prism in #746 is also pretty interesting, in that it reads as a null or even scumnull conclusion. i'm expecting scum to just outright townread Prism here to avoid a confrontation. also interesting that Spartan completely ignores Prism's interactions with Frederick, or at least neglects to mention them. Spartan's man fos is Frederick, so i'd expect him to take these interactions seriously, as i think this is potentially some ammo for his scumread. wouldn't he also factor into his analysis of Prism the fact that Prism is pressing Fred pretty hard? This is Spartan's main fos afterall - weird how he doesn't mention it.

i don't like Spartan's read list overall. he's just picking out things people have done/said and calling them scummy or towny. there's no focus on people's play
holistically
. i don't townread this math assessment of people - the "well they did 3 scummy things and 3 townie things, so overall null" there's no focus on how someone's play has evolved throughout the game. i'm hoping for better reads that i can resonate with later.
Prior to this, I wanted a nice, chill game where I set my partner up well, and annotated along the way. I wanted to simply force through one more miselimination, get voted out in 5 way, and let Salsabil get voted afterwards.

The second this got made, that was no longer an option: I no longer trusted that Spartan, while doing very well, was guaranteed or even likely to survive if left on his own. This post from Fairy has him, identifies that the interactions with me are off, and is just missing the last step. It didn't matter that Fairy locktowned me and townleaned Spartan, I could no longer afford to sit back.
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Post Post #2166 (isolation #458) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:52 pm

Post by Prism »

Yep, my notes PT was always meant to be public. Release it!
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Post Post #2169 (isolation #459) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 12:59 pm

Post by Prism »

In post 68, Prism wrote:Just another post about me and my new best pal, fferyllt, yep. Best friends. Totally inseparable. Our families do Christmas together, godmother of my child, absolutely not just someone I've interacted with in two/three games. Nope. Best friends.
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Post Post #2175 (isolation #460) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:03 pm

Post by Prism »

ya linked the edit button ffery

Here's the Notes PT
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Post Post #2179 (isolation #461) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:04 pm

Post by Prism »

My annotations did unfortunately take a major backseat when it became apparent I could no longer just do what I liked, but I tried to circle back.

Anyway, I'll try to avoid spamming the thread. I'll circle back in a few hours with the summary of what I thought important/give the individualized feedback I promised.
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Post Post #2181 (isolation #462) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:06 pm

Post by Prism »

In post 2172, Cabd wrote:Now kids remember next time you see prism just link to this thread and then policy on day one If prism fails to catch the entire scum team
In post 2173, fferyllt wrote:
In post 2166, Prism wrote:Yep, my notes PT was always meant to be public. Release it!
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12508280

This is one of the most detailed player notes PTs I've seen at MS! It's well worth your time to read it and refer back to the posts he's talking about in the game thread.

I almost felt like Prism was showing me how it's supposed to be done, after my merely adequate scum game in the mini normal we played just before this game began.
I was more than happy to put to rest any ideas that I was so simple of a read as our previous games implied.
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Post Post #2182 (isolation #463) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:07 pm

Post by Prism »

In post 2178, quiet wrote:2. Prism, you psychopath, you planned the obsessive/possibly even mod thinking play over the course of months of games?
That and a whole lot more lmao
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Post Post #2186 (isolation #464) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:12 pm

Post by Prism »

I really don't think Spartan is getting enough credit in this postgame.

I was the more visible voice, and absolutely pulled out all the stops to make the townreads on me bulletproof, but simply working through the pairings was
completely damning, and completely inevitable
for the scumteam.

He needed to make him/floo plausible for us to have any hope of winning that Day 3. And he did. I had the flashy role, but he laid out the red carpet and was the grease that made it all work.
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Post Post #2191 (isolation #465) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 1:32 pm

Post by Prism »

2080 explains why we wanted to claim and why we want the scum to claim first.

It's important to note that this became relevant because we had
mechanical confirmation
one of us was scum, which is what allows us to exploit the possibility of hunting for roleblocker.

Of course, this would never be relevant: but I wanted to show I was actively looking for mechanical plays, and I did consider claiming doctor and forcing a vote outside/bussing Spartan as the final trick up my sleeve, though I decided against it. I came EXTREMELY close to claiming doctor before I voted you, additionally.
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Post Post #2194 (isolation #466) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:29 pm

Post by Prism »

Massive spoiler of general commentary/takeaways

Spoiler: You've been warned
I started out this game wanting it to be more instructional on the subtler side of the scum alignment. I think a lot of players think the only way to win as scum is to prove yourself super town.

One of the main concepts to understand how I was able to effectively convert this game into a win is
town attention span and conversational control.
Every single player was scared of me Day 2, and this led me to look for ways to capitalize on the paranoia. I understood that as long as you were paranoid of me, I could force town’s attention on me, bear it, and keep it away from Spartan. As long as I could get one more miselim, I did not mind being voted Day 3. I had set up plenty to suggest Salsabil was my partner for Spartan to use Day 4. The notes PT goes more indepth on this, but at virtually every turn I was doing my best to control exactly what the town players were thinking about and where their attention was focused. Innocent dialogues with quiet were in reality safely quarantining him, knowing the topic is safe and it preventing him from moving his attention somewhere productive. As I discuss in the notes PT, I actively looked for ways to capitalize on floo’s absence Day 3, such as by selling myself as town looking ahead to the 3 way decision and doing traffic control to make sure conversation is going in a favorable direction.

Two things combined to ruin my life Day 2. One, I overshooting my dialogue Day 2, becoming more town than I wanted after a conversation with flow trap. Second, fairy replaced in and completely shut down any chance of me letting Spartan go it alone, let alone setting up the slot to be voted.

Second, springing off of this concept is the idea of
time management.
Day 2 and Day 3, I was very intentional about using the clock against the town, publicly positioning as though I wanted something to happen but all the while content to let it run out, putting the pressure on town to drive miselims or concede to my desired floo vote without too much of a worry. Ironically, this almost backfired as Spartan got flashwagoned, but we survived thanks to Spartan coming in at the right time.

Third is the concept of
intuitively understanding what the other players will townread.
One of the things you’ll notice in the notes PT is that I have no earthly idea what to do early on, simply because I don’t know who I’m up against. As I gained knowledge of the players, I became better at predicting exactly what would be townread-or scumread-by others. Many of my “basic powertowning” posts I reference in the notes PT aren’t actually basic at all, but strategically using my understanding of other players to engineer townreads during extended interactions in conjunction with my more extended schemes. I constantly ran ahead of things I knew would cause trouble, and by describing or addressing them on my terms, would almost always nip them in the bud before they even started. I don’t have too much advice as to how to replicate this: This is a strength that gets refined in the fires of chat mafia. At times, I specifically utilized the same concept to engineer scumreads on me or issue challenges I knew wouldn’t be taken up, such as my potentially gamelosing bluff with floo Day 2.

Every single post of mine was crafted to be townread or scumread by certain people, often down to the specific word choice. This sounds like a lot of effort, but at a certain point becomes instinctual.

Fourth, you must
be creative in utilizing your town meta to your scum advantage.
One of the huge walls quiet ran into was that I simply had no scum record of playing this way as scum, but a very extensive one as town. As you are players lacking in a meta record for the most part, this is something that will come with time.

All 4 of these combined to deliver the win in 5 way. The first two were crucial all game, the third was crucial for executing some of the smaller-scale tactics, but the third/fourth in conjunction are what won the game.

I said this in the Notes PT, but
the Achilles heel of the scumteam was that me/Spartan’s interactions specifically were deeply-and intentionally-lacking
, with the pinchhitters and my own mistakes forcing me to swap strategy halfway through the game. I said that if town got caught up in my tone, and in my meta, rather than finding Spartan and working their way through pairings from there, town would lose, and this is essentially what happened. From my perspective, game was about town being able to find each other and eliminate pairings, which is what came close to sinking us Day 3.

Lastly,
be active as town, and be strategically active as scum.
You don’t have to take it to extremes like I do, you can have a life, but you can’t disappear for extended periods of time and expect to win whenever you happen to show up. This game had some strong and very active town players, but at crucial points the others disappeared when they needed them most. I don’t want to beat up on floo-who played well-but waiting until Day 3 to come around put way too much pressure on quiet/flow trap, both of whom were already dealing with enough obstacles from me.
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Post Post #2197 (isolation #467) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:58 pm

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Individualized feedback, I'm sorry but it's not quite as indepth as I would like at points/have the backlinks but I need to head out and want to post these while it's still fresh. I would recommend checking the notes PT/searching variants of your name there to find specific examples of how I exploited the things I talk about.

Specific feedback:

Spoiler: flow trap
I do think being more open would have gone a long way, especially early days. Your pairings and wall were brilliant, and your reads were good (esp. on Salsabil imo, that was legitimately a great progression) but actively dialoguing with quiet, floo, etc. much earlier on would have gone a long way. By playing more closed, I was often able to leverage my appeals to you as “freebies”: +town posts that didn’t put myself or the scumteam at any risk at all. Imagine if you had, say, worked with quiet on a Spartan vote or been able to sell that more effectively Day 2. I think Day 3 specifically, you could have engineered a bit more from both quiet and floo. Your off the cuff style was a strength, and I chose not to push you this game, but you do need to be careful that you’re not making the kind of contradictions I pointed out near the end of Day 2.

Spoiler: Fairyprincess69
You ruined my life, I have virtually no words for you. You didn’t really play enough to have me give a ton of feedback but I think your reads were great, maybe a bit too caught up in my tone/emotional side. You pushing Spartan more would have outright won the game, but just the vulnerabilities you showed by pushing the slot were nearly enough to sink it. Easiest fearkill of my life.

Spoiler: Floo
he most glaring issue, as you’ve identified, is motivation and posting. Your team needed you Day 3, not to necessarily no-life it like I did, but to be engaged and dialoguing with them.
You knew I was mafia, so there was little point talking to me.
My perception was that you were in your own head about where you went wrong/how you got put into such a bind, which is understandable, but you had to push through that. You have good analysis, but you need to dialogue more readily and not selectively ignore things. I exploited this relentlessly this game and others will do the same. Finally, I think you had the right idea in going after me/Spartan specifically! This is extremely tough to do but you found it. Lastly, this one is more minor, I do think you could have sharpened your points against me a bit-had I responded, I think you would have found they shot you in the foot. That said, you were under a ton of pressure by this time, and making sure you got me exactly right was a very small worry in comparison

Spoiler: Enchant
Never selfvote as town unless you gain a concrete mechanical advantage for doing so. Never think of yourself as valueless or “bound to be voted later.”
Spoiler: Salsabil
In general, you were a pleasure to play with, and I found flow trap similarly abrasive as times. Simultaneously, floo/flow trap were right that your reaction was throwing gas on the fire. It’s on you to successfully link up as town, and sometimes that means really, REALLY going out of your way to accommodate people you entirely disagree with.

Spoiler: Quiet
Your weakness is experience, and in lacking several parts of the toolkit that simply comes with time. I do think my progressions were worth looking more into, esp. on Spartan. It is easy to look at yourself and think this game was won if you didn’t fall for the pocket. You fell for the pocket because I was absolutely relentless and obsessive with developing it, and this is time, effort, and public content that is more up to other town to punish. I think you had the right idea with how much you tried to work with floo Day 3. And floo was wrong imo, you were not some lapdog, here’s a quote from the wall I typed up:

“Respectfully, while I know this is quiet's to deal with, for quiet: You are not my lapdog. You turned the read I had on your slot around. You worked through the read on me on your own, and your vote is your own. You have real agency and have worked to solve the game all day, and have not been mindlessly following me, even at the cost of being wrong Day 2. And being wrong sucks, but it's the only way to improve. If you respect me and take parts of my game as your own as you continue to develop, that's amazing and an honor. The entire reason you play Newbies is to pass the baton off like that.”

While this was meant to solidify the townread, you had the hardest job in the entire town minus maybe floo, and it is largely true. It is easy to say "Fuck quiet for getting pocketed" when you're not the one being specifically targeted day after day after day.

Spoiler: Esotericzoomer
Unfortunately, being aware of what is generally +town means that you can fake it, and I think the most important concept here is “range”. Inexperienced players do traditionally scummy things a lot, experienced players know how to leverage traditionally town behaviors for themselves as town. The behavior itself matters a lot less than the player making it. The flow trap post was simply “free”, it posed no danger to me as scum, and it wasn’t even my intent to get
that
townread by it.

Spoiler: Frederick
You’re too caught up in semantics and being perfectly logically consistent. You need to make more room for plausible connections and make a more active effort at both understanding what the other players are getting at, and to be wrong in your own guesses/assertive in working with imperfect information.

Spoiler: Safebet
In the event you come back, I think you needed to be a bit more comparative in your treatment of players and answer more of the specific questions towards you, but generally I didn’t have as good of a chance to feel you out as I did the others.
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Post Post #2198 (isolation #468) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 2:59 pm

Post by Prism »

Salsabil's got lost in Enchant's spoiler

Spoiler: Salsabil
In general, you were a pleasure to play with, and I found flow trap similarly abrasive as times. Simultaneously, floo/flow trap were right that your reaction was throwing gas on the fire. It’s on you to successfully link up as town, and sometimes that means really, REALLY going out of your way to accommodate people you entirely disagree with.
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Post Post #2200 (isolation #469) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:06 pm

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I'm glad everyone enjoyed my play, and I was more than happy to get to share it.

Again, for the town, if the other comments from 3rd parties do not make this clear: You did not play poorly, and you did not get steamrolled. You pushed me to a limit I-and the moderators/specators-never in a million years would have expected in a Newbie game. I might have been the better player today strictly in terms of outcomes, but I had 10 years on all of you. I do not have confidence the same will be true a year from now, and as I said I am not at all looking forward to our rematch. You are all quite talented, I'm thankful you pushed me this far, and I hope you continue to play, get stronger, and most importantly: have fun!

I think that wraps up most of my comments, but I could honestly talk about this game all week-Absolutely reach out if you have any questions or want to discuss it further, either inthread or via PM!
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Post Post #2201 (isolation #470) » Tue Feb 09, 2021 3:07 pm

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In post 2199, Cabd wrote:Where is mine? And ffery's?
You two had one job between the both of you and made me do it, hell no.

(Joking, I tried to get one of them to do the N2 nightkill as there were no power roles to track/block/etc. remaining)
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Post Post #2213 (isolation #471) » Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:33 pm

Post by Prism »

In post 2203, Enchant wrote:I had concrete mechanical advantage for doing so.
I suspect the other townsmembers preferred
potentially
the extra elimination elsewhere with more of a fight, over being
guaranteed
to waste it with less of a fight.

Speaking bluntly from a scum standpoint, your play around the selfhammer/mafia claim Day 1 made the game significantly easier. That said, what you take from the game and what you do with the feedback is up to you.
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Post Post #2214 (isolation #472) » Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:39 pm

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In post 2211, fairyprincess69 wrote:damn the way you hyped me up prism makes me wish i put more effort in now :igmeou: sorry i couldn't be a more worthy adversary!
Oh, don't be sorry. The effort you put in was enough. In fact, I'd actually appreciate it if you used less next time, a lot less.
In post 2211, fairyprincess69 wrote:as immense as prism was, that play by spartan at the end of day 2 there really sealed the win for scum, because i was very ok with chopping him up till that point. that made me do a 180 and focus on flow/fred, which i knew was never going to be the maf team, but i just couldn't get a doggone read on anyone!
Thank you for this, again I do not think people understand just how
insanely clutch
Spartan was at several points throughout the game. His last-second entry at the End of Day 2 was insanely strong. For as much as I tried to make this game bulletproof starting mid-Day 2, I failed and it was up to Spartan to fill in the gaps. I said it best in my Notes PT day 3: Spartan is a god
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Post Post #2215 (isolation #473) » Wed Feb 10, 2021 1:40 pm

Post by Prism »

Feel free to never replace into a town slot where I'm scum again, if you really want to do me a favor

(Kidding-thanks for being an important part of what made this game so fun and challenging to play)
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Post Post #2217 (isolation #474) » Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:05 pm

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In post 2211, fairyprincess69 wrote:the whole ffery narrative felt farfetched but you were able to back it up and convey it so seamlessly. i really felt like you believed you're an anime protagonist with a point to prove LOL. and as you mentioned in your notes, switching from diplomatic to terse - i remember feeling that so palpably, how you were getting annoyed at me for not seeing your read but also wanting to remain calm and how that fits perfectly with your narrative of an obsessive player that can singlehandedly ruin games and your wish to rectify that
I'll get to the ffery part in a second, but addressing the emotive side first.

I'm a very obsessive, intense, and emotive player as town, as Dystopia showed (and another game that I never had to link, Chara's Folly). Fortunately, if I'm a delusional idiot as town, I can pretend to be one as scum. Some of this is very tightly tied to the current site town meta, which puts a heavy emphasis on hyperposting and emotional interaction. I've been eager to show the limitations of this thinking. Faking the emotive aspects is step one, but there are much more venomous ways to punish this playstyle. Using this game as a blueprint, you can see how I used that focus on off-the-cuff, realtime dialogue to prevent players from taking deeper dives and to control exactly where their attention was directed, at times to obscure Spartan and at others to just straight up send them down deadends to waste time.
In post 2212, fferyllt wrote:As far as I can tell, it's all real [the ffery narrative], and definitely all based on actual game events and conversations.
People seem to be really interested in my fferyllt narrative/how it was created, so I'll trace through that a bit.

For the fferyllt narrative, what made it so venomous was that it was backed up by real events, but fundamentally untrue. Crafting the narrative was an evolving process, but first it might be more useful to highlight how much of it was true.

-Dystopia was a very influential game for me, and absolutely spurred stylistic changes.
-fferyllt annoyed me with their expectations in illicit. Dystopia wasn't a highlight for me, but I really just hate that shit period.

That's about it. No offense to ffery at all-the same would be true for anyone else-but I don't really care what she thinks of my play or my playstyle. I play the game to challenge myself, but I really don't put much value on the opinion of third parties.

So for how it was developed, I've been eager to burn the obsessive/emotive tell for awhile now. Many players thought I wasn't capable of faking it because I rolled town several times in a row. As the origin of that style, Dystopia was always going to be a part of that. The second I replaced in, I realized I could go further and draw an explicit parallel between the two games on the basis of Dystopia being a Newbie, modded by ffery, and showing similar behavior as that I planned. That was basically the extent of ffery's involvement at first.

Driving one night, I realized I could add a much more fiercely emotive edge with the phrase "This is personal to me." Again, still only thinking of parallels to Dystopia. This set the cogs turning, and as I was thinking over ways to strengthen the "personal" claim, I realized there was this record of ffery expecting a style I wasn't willing to play, and a bit of annoyance on my end in response. There's no written record of me not caring, and my interactions with ffery were at least vaguely friendly afterwards, so I was confident this would work.

And so the mod vs. Prism narrative was fashioned. Suddenly, ffery was my best friend, godmother of my child, here's memes about her and me jokingly responding to her flavor about her getting coal, and I had something to prove to her...and the rest is history.
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Post Post #2218 (isolation #475) » Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:11 pm

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In post 2212, fferyllt wrote:I think Prism is way too hard on himself about the Dystopia game. he was a scary-good town player then, and he's way beyond scary as a scum player now!
Dystopia was definitely not all my fault, but there's just no other way to treat your losses if you're serious about improving. Elbirn/Mulch played poorly, but I didn't do enough to win, and fundamentally I care a lot more about that than anything they did/didn't do.

I'm actually a rather atrocious town player by W/L record-something like 4-10 on MS...As for my scum play, well, I warned you. I just haven't rolled scum in awhile other than the snoozefest Scumsman game and altslipping in FGO.
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Post Post #2219 (isolation #476) » Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:13 pm

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In post 2216, WhemeStar wrote:Prism you would be fun to play with
I don't know if you've forgotten, but you played in the referenced Dystopia!
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Post Post #2220 (isolation #477) » Wed Feb 10, 2021 2:17 pm

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One more thing I forgot to mention was that selling the ffery/meta narratives as legitimate required me to
not go out of my way to explain them
. I needed to lay the foundations, and explain a little bit if necessary to understand my tonal shift, but really put off explaining in full until much later. I really wanted another town-or Spartan-to do the meta case, and it was important that my speech/explanation on ffery come naturally and ideally after a bit of prodding. Had it not been noticed or town dropped it, I might have gone out of my way to work it in somehow, but fortunately others kept referencing it.

I was very intentional about holding off-I had one post that was like "I don't think the ffery stuff is the concern right now"-to quiet, until the timing was right to really sell the legitimacy.

Finally, last ~12 hours of the game, quiet just happened to bring it up again in a paranoid context? Perfect!
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