In post 4039, Trust Fund wrote:Wayne, pretty sure those aren't cop claims, they're clears for other reasons. Let's not get the claims out quite yet if players aren't ready unless you think you've got a "guyinfreezer is soooo PR" kind of vibe going on again.
It's not that. Mastin blatantly claimed Cop and then cleared Venrob. There was no reading between the lines. Muttley actually had 2 shots instead of the one he claimed and shot AJ last night. AJ is still alive, hence the bulletproof.
And yeah, lets kick scum butt and perhaps work on the friend thing in the process.
I don't see a reason for you to want to out AJ's role, tbf.
~
@NS: I'll get to your comment in a second.
When and hiw rarely have you ever seen town BP? There's already been suspicion on the AJ slot and I see no reason to not make the result public for others to chew on.
I have seen them quite more often than anything else.
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 3:57 pm
by Andrius
mastin wrote:I take it you live in Washington, too. (And I'm guessing Spokane from your location?)
"Too"?
YOU LIVE IN WASHINGTON?
Yes, Spokane. Well, sort of.
mastin wrote:Regardless of Malakittens's alignment, Nacho is scum.
So why don't we lynch Nacho FIRST, since he's scum regardless of her alignment and thereby don't waste time lynching someone you don't KNOW to be scum?
Mod: if an X-shot role is roleblocked, is their shot refunded?
Wayne, you should check to make sure your shot was used up. I'm running through the possibilities, between roleblocker (a fairly likely scum role in the game), *OTHERS REDACTED*, but needless to say, aside from the roleblocker possibility, none of these bode well for Aj at all.
(Oh, and even in the case of a roleblocker, still not great. )
this seems odd as hell
just for the record
In post 4051, waynegg wrote:Mastin, why are you claiming Wayne got roleblocked?
if true
the hell are you doing mastin
the hell
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 4:56 pm
by mastin2
In post 4050, BROseidon wrote:Mastin, why would wayne being blocked bode poorly for AJ?
Well, there's a minor logical jump involved. If wayne's slot was blocked, then they were blocked for a reason. If they were blocked for a reason, then it's typically because they had a reason to be blocked. One reason to block a claimed 1-shot vig who's taken a shot is that you fear scum will be hit and the vig was lying about being 1-shot.
In post 4074, Aj The Epic wrote:Considering that there's about no chance of you being scum, I mine as well just claim. I'm a one shot bullet proof townie, who actively tried to get shot night 1 to remove that benefit. I wanted to remove any ambiguity because I had/have strong reasons to believe a traitor exists in this game and my role's job was to add a counterbalance to it. Not only do I have a strong reason to suspect much, but this is generally the key reason a bullet proof townie is added in (I can point a few games I was in recently with the same role).
Unfortunately, I received no notification to recognize anyone having removed this from me. I can, however, show a trail of crumbs I left to try to get this removed and how it has affected my logical progression through the game.
I'm inclined to believe this. It can be a scum (fake)claim, but the WAY this was claimed seems town to me.
mastin wrote:I take it you live in Washington, too. (And I'm guessing Spokane from your location?)
"Too"?
YOU LIVE IN WASHINGTON?
Yes, Spokane. Well, sort of.
Yup. I live between Snohomish (the city! not the county!) and Monroe, in what I believe is called "The Foothills". My address is considered Snohomish, but I have much stronger associations with Monroe. (Mainly, because there's more in Monroe for me to be attached to. )
mastin wrote:Regardless of Malakittens's alignment, Nacho is scum.
So why don't we lynch Nacho FIRST, since he's scum regardless of her alignment and thereby don't waste time lynching someone you don't KNOW to be scum?
Because she's almost certainly scum, too. I checked Mind-reader, and her play there was totally different. Plus, I have the support to lynch Malakittens; if I tried to lynch Nacho, I might get half-way there, but would only divide the wagons between Malakittens and Nacho. While two scum wagons is awesome, two scum wagons with neither going through is not.
Basically, Nacho's scum. Malakittens is scum. Desperado is scum. All independently of one another. However, their interactions make them even strongerly be scum. We can only lynch one of them at a time, and Malakittens has more support today, sooooooo...Malakittens comes first.
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:02 pm
by Malakittens
Please do point out to why it's different.
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:10 pm
by Andrius
mastin wrote:Yup. I live between Snohomish (the city! not the county!) and Monroe, in what I believe is called "The Foothills". My address is considered Snohomish, but I have much stronger associations with Monroe. (Mainly, because there's more in Monroe for me to be attached to. )
I only ask because there's this thing we call seattlemeet that happened every so often.
The more I think about it, the more I think it should happen today.
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:13 pm
by zMuffinMan
aj wrote:I'm a one shot bullet proof townie, who actively tried to get shot night 1 to remove that benefit.
there are so many things wrong with this statement, even if it were true, and i do not believe it is true, because someone who wants to get shot N1 generally takes a more active, leading role.
aj wrote:I can, however, show a trail of crumbs I left to try to get this removed and how it has affected my logical progression through the game.
do it.
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 5:15 pm
by zMuffinMan
i mean honestly, show of hands, how many people would have considered AJ being the N1 scum kill as likely in this game?
In post 4077, mastin2 wrote:Well, there's a minor logical jump involved. If wayne's slot was blocked, then they were blocked for a reason. If they were blocked for a reason, then it's typically because they had a reason to be blocked. One reason to block a claimed 1-shot vig who's taken a shot is that you fear scum will be hit and the vig was lying about being 1-shot.
Except I ISO'd Mutt to see if he left any indication of who he'd have targeted next. I found nothing. He spent all of day two with "I SHOT MY WHOLE LOAD ON SAKI LAWL."
So why would scum be afraid of him hitting again if 1) He'd claimed 1-shot and 2) There was no indication of who he'd target next if he were lying, and would thus be more likely to hit town than scum.
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 6:21 pm
by Aj The Epic
Muffin, if you noticed, I took a very active role day 1 and was present the majority of the time around Mala and Rach.
Seriously, though: The writing is on the wall that Mala is scum this game.
I didn't realize that I became so damn outspoken when I had caught scum. The FTL thing was not TvT, that's a terrible assumption. Unfortunately, I'm probably going to end up on my second choice (nick) because I have two townreads and a conftown there right now.
(I thought this would be slightly more obvious than it was in hindsight, though I didn't really want to go blatant hint cop, draw a real claim and get the town in a whole shitton of trouble. I used an old religious reference of death after a truthful telling to reference where I'd go [hand of god, stated that he was displeased with Belshazzar, killed the King for his sins being to stating displeasure and going to get a guilty read] My major attempt was to make a soft hint at a possible action going to mala here. Leads to a stronger hint:)
In post 1328, Aj The Epic wrote:Apparently, however, you have enough support that unless I really wanted to ram this case down everyone's throat, I'm just wasting my time on you.
I will be going for something more solid
. But Mala, inwardly you have to know this isn't your town game.
In post 1597, Aj The Epic wrote:Mastin, who do you suggest we lynch first, then? Mala, since she has the strongest associative tells?
(I also was thinking of some of the nacho-relations that didn't make me feel too good about the slot, but I was thinking I was jumping at shadows to have him tied to Rach. I'm glad I'm not the only one who saw it).
Out of your reads, I think Andrius is wrong. It's Rach's counterwagon and Rach IS the connection to which everyone else (other than Nick, I really haven't found a place for him yet) fits. I really think today's lynch is rach or mala, then the other the next day.
P-edit: Mala, you tie to Rach, not nacho. If Nacho flipped scum, Rach still has to flip to incriminate you. And vice versa.
Mastin, walk me through Nick's connections and THEN we can talk about taking him first. Rach is my candidate right now, because if you're also seeing Nacho, she sticks at the center of this web.
And then Nick's all by himself. That's why I don't get why go to nick first. Sure the wagons help a bit, but I think that's a little more random than actual textual interaction.
This was me trying to see if Nick was our traitor. I couldn't find any real connection between him and the rest, and so I wanted to see if Mastin had an idea. Also, on the day 2 when he didn't go after mala with a case, I couldn't word that he might've been the mafia traitor without having to explain my own role in relation. It made sense to me, though, as the day went on. I had scum read him for a long time, he didn't seen to have any connections to mala yet flipped on her and the refused a case. So in my head, I had the traitor who felt he was owned and didn't want to drag a partner he may have known about down. Even without possibly knowing his partner, Mala was as good a guess as any for scum at that point and it was best for him not to tear at his own team.
Do I think Nick is scum? I wouldn't be surprised if he was. His posting hasn't been fantastic (As I will expand upon seeing as you so kindly asked) but it would be a little bit of a curve ball to my own thinking if he turned up scum. Throughout, as I've stated, his only consistent interactions with town reads are Bro and TD, both of which I have at varying degrees of town.
So after quoting through his iso, I found one post on top of what I saw that I really didn't like before (it's the last one in this, and I believe it's out of order so I can address it a bit more)
Spoiler:
In post 1386, nickthename wrote:@1381
Wow, you managed to make an entire reads list without saying or committing to anything. Scummy, although I don't know the meta, maybe this is par for the course.
I don't think Rach is a very good D1 lynch though, but if she keeps sitting on the fence day 2 i'll most certainly want to lynch her then.
Alright. This is part of the two-post important special for Nick and the main foundation of anything I have for him. First, we see he DISLIKES Rach's read list (which, fyi, is worse than anything Mastin put up this game), but denies that Rach is a good d1 lynch, saying they should be lynching mastin (off of wagon support formed from that '5 scum' comment mastin had). But,
In post 2345, nickthename wrote:I don't understand the Andrius case and don't like this idea of lynching Rach today. That said, I'd prefer Rach to nothing, so I guess I'll vote her, unless something convinces me Andrius is scum, which is actually possible, since I perhaps if someone actually explains that case I'll understand it.
Rach hasn't provided much content at all today, her reads sit on the fence so hard it's ver difficult to tell what she thinks of anyone. However, she has promised better reads and commentary day 2.
I agree that her behavior today has been scummy,
but hear me out.
Assume for the sake of argument that she doesn't provide any useful content during the rest of Day 1, which I think is a fairly passable assumption considering her current behavior.
During day 2, if she still fails to provide any useful content, we lynch her.
If she does provide useful content day 2, we should be able to use that content to get a more accurate read on her. If we decide she's town, we avoid a mislynch. If scum, we still lynch her, but now we have her better reads to use against her partners.
It's plainly obvious to me that a mac lynch isn't going to happen, so i'm in favor of a mastin lynch.
His reads look very artificial
, mimicking popular town ideas without providing any decent reasons, and his posts are largely useless and fluffy, either in the form of talking about how towny he is, talking about
how he has secret reads he won't tell us
, or talking about how he's lying about how confident he is. This comes accross to me as scum trying to look engaged while lacking any real scumhunting.
As to Andy, I need to Iso him again, if anyone could post a non-meta based case against him, that would be nice.
Bad all around. First, he suggests leaving a 'scummy player' around to get a better read on her. He suggests multiple times he sees her as scummy, but doesn't want her dead day 1. Now with her flip, I can almost tie Nick to Rach just for this. He's protecting a buddy. More than that, he's giving her a chance at a free pass in his mind, in favor of a mastin lynch which is made worse by his three expressed reasons.
1: Artificial reads. This really isn't true. Mastin had been giving and re-explaining reads all day. Plus, as mentioned by me (and Nick!) Rach's reads are awful. Terrible amounts of coaching would've gone on in the scum qt had Rach lived.
2: Lying about confidence. Come on, I explained this: You don't employ LaL for this.
3. Looking engaged, no scum hunting: Mastin was the first to voice that he thought Nacho/Rach could be a thing. He admitted that he was having trouble with this game at the begining and Nick has unfairly tried to pin this as an issue when, guess what, Rach had the same issue without ever trying to fix it. This post willingly admits that Nick has a connection to Rach.
Most importantly here, I was trying to find a way to bend Nick:Rach without saying "I think Nick is a traitor who possibly knows his partners and they don't know him" because that sounds stupid. He asserted Mala to be town with low interaction between them day 1. It turns out it was just an honest read, but I had that tagged as him supporting mala when her wagon had the least support. Rach was more obvious tying, as he took a weird "I can agree with lynching rach later" stance that I associated with "I can steer a lynch off today". And it, to me, made perfect sense why no one seemed to reciprocate anything to nick. (Oh, anything in green was me pointing out more to this post specifically)
In post 3457, Aj The Epic wrote:It could, but it could also mean scum have leashed him in favor of keeping Mala alive. His case is delayed even with school (spoiler: 50% of this game is probably in school or college right about now) and I have a feeling it's going to come over really weak or mirroring one of the cases that has already been said. Though, you know as well as I do it isn't a hard task to find scummy posts in Mala's iso.
In post 3660, Aj The Epic wrote:So FTL, now that Nick is 'playing against his wincon', what is your read on him? I figured as much for him not having anything for Malascum... but here's what's odd: He still holds that Mala is his strongest scum read. Even though he's too lazy/can't be bothered for a case like he promised for basically the last five days and stalled this day to hell and back. I think this is basically the nail confirming nick as scum.
Again, I was trying to suggest there was a connection without ever suggesting mala had reason to defend nick. To me, it made more sense if Nick WAS a traitor that he'd decide to stall out and hope for the best when he might've been infringing on his own team's plan. Everything he did was so non-committed with Mala, I felt as if he didn't no where to go that wouldn't hurt the team more. Theoretically, as traitor, Nick's hands would've been tied and he wouldn't have been able to make a move without seriously endangering his team, hence the 'leash' comment. Plus, Nick town reading mala and suddenly flipping when his wagon started seemed like more of an attempt to save mala than his own life.
Bro, it was a tad obvious Mutt was lying... Just the fact of a one shot vig in a large game with only one fraction would make this game take forever even with lynches and night kills consistent. Plus, I've never seen a one shot vig in a game this large. I suspect that he stayed alive more because scum didn't categorize him as a threat when he was away and inactive the majority of D2's latter half.
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:49 pm
by Faster Than Light
@AJ
: I really like this post. It makes sense if I'm reading it correctly. However, I'm confused about a few things;
What the fuck does a traitor do? (Wiki says they can't do any QT chat/make kills, but is there something I'm missing?)
Does the scum team know if they have a traitor? The way you're writing about it makes it seem like they don't, but the wiki says sometimes the scum-team does.
What's your basis for saying there must be a traitor? Is it solely based in the fact you've never seen these PRs without a traitor to counterbalance them? How the fuck does a traitor even counterbalance them?
So... Nick's not a traitor, so what does that mean for us now?
The only reason I'd see for scum to keep Muttley alive is that his first shot hit town. It's clear that he wasn't a good judge of who to shoot, from an alignment standpoint. Getting two kills in one night? Seems pretty damn appealing, despite the risks.
Where I'm at right now, I'm really damn hesitant to believe you, AJ. How do I know you're not a 1-shot bulletproof Traitor, and all the crumbs you've had are false-crumbs so you could claim BP at this moment? This whole traitor thing out of nowhere feels out of left-field, because I'm not seeing much reason for you to figure that there's a traitor in the game unless you absolutely knew it--what's here doesn't seem like speculation, either. The easiest way I see to know it is if you are actually the traitor. Then again, I don't really know how the fuck that role works, or what a one-shot BP // Multi-shot Vig would entail that'd make you so sure there'd be a traitor in this game.
Does that make sense?
-V
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:52 pm
by Faster Than Light
That second question goes both ways, actually--
Does the scum team know if they have a traitor?
and
Does the traitor know who the scum team is?
EBWOP: you make it seem like the scum team knows they do*, but the traitor and the scum team don't know who each other are, if that makes sense.
-V
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 7:56 pm
by Nachomamma8
In post 3828, Trust Fund wrote:I'm really regretting not using my oneshot role to confirm venmar as PGO. That way we'd either have confirmed liar; or i'd be dead and he'd be confirmed town.
And I wouldn't have to deal with this shit.
In post 3845, Mac wrote:someone is really going to have to sell me on mastin-town. after campaigning all of day one how this was not my scum-meta, mastin has now reversed his read. despite me also pushing his top scumread mala yesterday. your accusations of me "derailing" a mala lynch (HINT: THERE WAS NO WAGON TO DERAIL) because i was against ftl's gambit is bullshit at best.
speaking of gambits, FTL, did you ever lay out how that would've worked and how you could confirm nacho along with nick?
Mastin's current level of crazy is at the unmistakably town level. His offended attitude that I'm not working with him, his "endorsements", etc.
In post 3847, Faster Than Light wrote:Nacho do you remember perpetual mylo? with Cabdscum going "apathy is a scumtell". yeah look at apathetic TF right over there big hands open
Apathy *isn't* a scumtell, and he certainly isn't making the same mistakes he made in MyLo.
Pretty sure I could quote mine other people saying Varsoon is just being Varsoon too.
This is wildly different.
In post 3948, mastin2 wrote:Kill one person intimately familiar with Nacho, could be coincidence.
Kill two people intimately familiar with Nacho, almost certainly by design.
There just happens to be another who wants both of those people dead.
In post 3952, Malakittens wrote:Just lynch me. I'm a liability in LyLo anyways (if I were to make it that far) since I'm mislynch bait for scum.
TOWN:
notscience
waynegg
Faster Than Light
Ghostlin
Mac
mastin2
Muffin
Lean town:
Andrius
Trust Fund
AJ
Venmar?
BROseidon
LEFTOVERS:
Malakittens
TiphaineDeath
These are my reads. Towngroup is obviously the strongest.
Mastin, why is Venmar town?
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:07 pm
by Faster Than Light
<3
MAFIA WARS SIX
The Return of the Nacho.
NACHOMAMMA8 has returned to
his mafia thread of Xenogears in
an attempt to rescue his
friend Mastin2 from the
clutches of the vile gangster
Tiphane the Death.
Little does Nacho know that the
SOLARIS EMPIRE has secretly
begun planning on a new
series of nightkills even
more powerful than the first
murdered Sound of Silence.
When completed, this ultimate
nightkill will spell certain doom
for the small band of rebels
struggling to restore freedom
to the galaxy...
Jesus, the intro to Return of the Jedi is foreboding as fuck.
-V
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:08 pm
by zMuffinMan
aj wrote:Muffin, if you noticed, I took a very active role day 1 and was present the majority of the time around Mala and Rach.
no, not really. i don't remember you doing much with RM or the RM wagon, and i barely remember anything you were saying about mala D1, so while you may have had suspicions of mala D1, you certainly weren't taking an active role in pushing that.
i also have issues with these "crumbs"
the reasoning for your obscure 'cop crumbs' makes little sense. firstly, no cop claims because they see someone crumbing cop. secondly, if your crumbs were so obscure that a real cop wouldn't pick up on them, then they're essentially fucking useless because how would scum pick up on them, especially if a real cop crumbed in a more obvious way.............................................
i don't see how you came to the conclusion that nick was a traitor in the first place. him not making sense as scum with some of your other reads doesn't automatically suggest "oh, he's a traitor!" you could have been wrong about nick (hint: you were), you could have been wrong in your scum reads, etc etc
also, i can't think of any town reason you'd 'crumb' that you thought nick was a traitor. traitor is scum like any other scum, so why would town-AJ need to crumb this? it only benefits scum, and i can think of reasons you'd do this as scum (say, letting your partners know that you think nick is the traitor)... but i can't think of any reason you'd do it as town.
also, i can't think of a town reason for why you'd automatically assume a traitor knows who their scum partners are. they don't always know.
not to mention, you thinking nick was a traitor doesn't even make any sense with the way you were talking about nick yesterday.
for example, you were constantly talking about how you trusted the people on the nick wagon more than those on the mala wagon. if you genuinely thought nick was a traitor that scum weren't aware of and mala was actual scum, then surely you should have thought that the nick wagon was more likely to be scum-infested than the mala wagon.....................................
then there's also the following quote, which makes no sense if you genuinely believe nick is a traitor that scum aren't aware of:
In post 3403, Aj The Epic wrote:Imagine if Nacho and Nick are opposite alignments: The scum would know which is town
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:17 pm
by zMuffinMan
@nacho
you're town or leaning town on everyone but TD and mala?
just going to take a stab in the dark here... you could be wrong about some of those reads.
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:25 pm
by Nachomamma8
In post 4091, zMuffinMan wrote:just going to take a stab in the dark here... you could be wrong about some of those reads.
hence why i differentiate between a strong town block and a lean town block.
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:26 pm
by Nachomamma8
muffin, why do you think aj would have faked all of that reasoning for his claim?
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:32 pm
by zMuffinMan
i'm not sure. it could have something to do with a number of players scum reading him atm, to the point that if he didn't come up with a believable claim he'd have been lynched (if not today, then in the near future). it could be because he had it pre-planned anyway. it could even be made up reasoning that he just thought of (which would explain the inconsistencies i just mentioned).
it's also possible he's telling the truth, and if i weren't considering this as a possibility, then i'd probably be voting him.
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:34 pm
by zMuffinMan
he could also be scum who legitimately thought nick was a traitor. in which case, the only "fake" reasoning in his post is the cop crumb stuff.
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:08 pm
by Malakittens
@Nacho:
Lately I been rolling a lot of scum games. My town game has been coming off scummy as hell. I end up going into LyLo and losing as town. I'm mislynch bait atm and I'm an easy lynch to push. Scum think they don't need to waste a NK on me because of this and town legitimately think "OHEY WE CAUGHT SCUM" Looks at the flip.. "Ohshit we were wrong".
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:10 pm
by Nachomamma8
who do you think is scum?
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:13 pm
by Malakittens
I still think Bro, recently leaning scum on FTL again. I don't trust Ghostlin and I haven't figured you out.
I have a lot stronger town reads than I do scum reads.
Posted: Tue Sep 17, 2013 9:16 pm
by Nachomamma8
what are your town reads you can take to the bank?
(And I'm guessing Spokane from your location?)