Micro 134 (F11) (Game Over!)

[FourTrouble]

I have played with FT before it would not surprise me if he came in and hammered without paying attention.

What the fuck are you talking about? I was the only townie making any sense in that game. I had Majiffy down as scum on D1, called that Thor was recruited by Cult, and was trying to tell you guys that Voided was town too. You guys lynched me for the loss, if you remember. It had nothing to do with me derping or not paying attention, either.

Vote Rach

[FourTrouble]

Wrong game FT

Um, which game are you referring to then? You're trying to discredit me as a player on the basis of some other game we played together, and that's the only one I remember playing with you, so...

[FourTrouble]

but that was another game
what makes rach scum in this one?

Well, besides the fact that she is misrepresenting my play in a different game (and calling my credibility into question on that basis), I also just don't like her posts in general. She is pretending to be more confused about things than I think she really is, and her vote on Jason just seemed like the easiest person to lodge a vote on instead of it being real scumhunting.

[FourTrouble]

Rach, which game were YOU referring to?

[FourTrouble]

Ah, but getting replaced is not indicative of the way I actually play when I am active in a game. I didn't have access to a computer at the time of those games so I was somewhat inactive, but when I was active I was certainly paying attention enough to not hammer someone without giving it some serious thought. I don't see where you got the idea that I would quick lynch someone?

[FourTrouble]

I know you are not saying I am scum, that's exactly the problem I have. If you thought I was scum, then sure you might reasonably be worried that I would hammer. This is not what you said though... You made explicit reference to my play AS town, not scum. The implication there is that you are worried I'd quick hammer because I am a careless townie who doesn't pay attention to the game.

[FourTrouble]

Heads up, I just realized I'm way too busy on Mondays, Tuesdays, and Wednesday to play mafia so in general I'll be V/LA on those days.

Dazed and Confused, to answer your questions, I called Rach scum because she was making claims about my play that are not true and can be used to call my credibility into question. I actually saw another player do the same thing in a game I just played and, big surprise, he was scum. I didn't mention her "opportunistic" vote on Jason at first because I didn't read it as something scummy at first, looking at things in retrospect often helps solidify my reads. What do you think of Rach? Also, I don't understand some of your questions, like what are you trying to achieve by asking me for thoughts about "other" players? I mean maybe I have something to say maybe I don't, either way I don't see how the answer to that question tells you anything about my alignment. Is there any reason you asked me in specific?

I really hope CES is town, from what I remember of him his reads were dead on. I have no clue what he's thinking though, it basically just looks like he's going after lurkers. What's the thought process behind Josh/Nacho as scum? I can see Josh's vote on Jason as scummy but other than that he's just inactive. His self description as a lurker is definitely weird though and utterly anti-town. I'll have to look at some of his other games to see if he always does that. As for Nacho, he's mostly been laying low too, his vote on CES doesn't seem to have much thought behind it but then again I don't really see the scum motivation there. Are people voting for them basically just because CES is saying they are scum? How does that work?

@Everyone following CES's lead, What is the reasoning behind that? It it because you legitimately agree with him? Or do you guys just think he's town so good idea to sheep him?

I'm not sure what to say about CES myself, he's not giving me any sort of indication either way. I just really hope he's town, basically null for now. Actually this kind of sucks, too many null reads so far. I could see either of CES/Josh/Nacho being scum or town at this point.

Sotty, why do you think I'm town? I'd like to see more of your analysis. Also, can you explain why Jason is town?

I like Sixty's posts so far, I'd put them down as town. I still don't like Rach to be honest. If I had to pick out a scum-team, from everything I've seen, it would be Rach/Nacho, just based on Rach's indirect defense of Nacho with her vote on Josh. Is there any reason no one else thinks Rach is scum?

[FourTrouble]

Rach, I'll read through that game when I have some more time. Can you link me to some of your scum games as well, please.

[FourTrouble]

Sixty, I was pretty explicit about the fact that I'm unsure about either of CES/Josh/Nacho. I don't see how that makes me scummy though. Am I supposed to fake having a stance on certain players when I don't actually have one? And why are you construing my lack of certainty with a lack of interest?

[FourTrouble]

Josh is right that he basically lurks in all his games so that's a null tell.

[FourTrouble]

Jason's last post was terrible, going with a popular position calling Josh/Nacho scum even though he's claims to have no idea what is going on. I agree completely with Nacho on this.

Unvote, Vote: Jason

[FourTrouble]

Dazed and Confused, I want to hear more from Sotty but so far I have a good town read on her. Her read on me seems very genuine, and her slight paranoia in response to my questioning her was not something I'd expect from scum at all.

[FourTrouble]

Sotty is town as fvck. Her thought process mirrors a lot of my own and her response to Sixty's attack by trying to understand where Sixty was coming from was very pro-town. Especially trying to understand the reasoning behind Sixty's suspicion of me, not just herself, showed a lot of thought and effort to understand Sixty's motivations, very genuine scumhunting.

Dazed and Confused is a weaker read of mine but also town. That said, I don't understand the shift regarding me in this post:

Also, no longer as confident in FT being town, because his 111 isn't as genuine as I remembered (the comment about CES attacking lurkers sucked), he keeps insisting stuff he does isn't scummy way too much, and I don't like how much he discusses the kinds of things he normally finds scummy/how he usually behaves (scum do that a lot, because it's much easier to talk about true things than your fake reads.)

What about my comment on CES suddenly doesn't seem genuine? And what do you mean you don't like that I insist the stuff I do isn't scummy? I haven't just gone around saying I'm not scummy just for the sake of saying it, it was directly in response to Sixty's attack.

I think scum has to be between Rach/Jason/Josh, maybe Sixty or CES. I'm trusting CES is town for now, assuming it for the same reason as Sotty. I thought Sixty was town because of their interactions with Dazed and Confused earlier but their latest posts aren't making any sense to me.

After reevaluating what I don't like about Sixty is 1) their terrible vote on Sotty, and 2) that they call my uncertainty earlier in the game scummy when other players were committing to far less positions. For example, Rach who may have had her vote on Josh but hadn't actually voiced any opinions of her own. Sixty has been defending Rach all game for no reason whatsoever, especially in light of the fact that Sixty is calling me scummy for things Rach is doing to an even greater degree (and has kept doing). I vote for Rach, Sixty calls me scummy. Sotty votes for Rach, Sixty calls Sotty scummy. Which begs the question:

Sixty, why do you think Rach is town?

[FourTrouble]

Sixty, you're twisting my words and misrepresenting what I'm saying

Your 4 points are retarded:

1) You were calling me scummy while implicitly defending Rach. You only attacked Rach much later in the game so your claim that you were accusing Rach totally takes your accusation of Rach and your attack on me out of context. The issue here is WHEN those things happened.
2) You're misrepresenting me. I'm not going around calling everyone who disagrees with me scummy and the fact I haven't called you scum makes that pretty clear. I disagree and agree with different things but that's not what causes me to think certain people are scum or not. What I'm talking about is the thought process that people have, the reasoning behind thinking a certain way. Sotty's thought process mirrors mine and I find that a very good sign that Sotty is town because it is a perspective that comes from a town mindset. It isn't ineffective or lazy, it's pretty straight forward logic: if someone is thinking about the game in the same way (not just agreeing or disagreeing) as me, it is more likely to come from town than scum.
3) I have more town reads right now than scum reads. I have a hard time evaluating or dealing with people who post so little so my list of possible scum is quite large. I'm using POE and gradually narrowing down my list of scum or expanding it depending on how the game progresses.
4) You're not even saying what is weak about my posts. You just call them weak for no reason.

What bothers me about your posts is that you're calling my analysis ineffective/lazy when that's what yours are, it's straight up hypocrisy. You're applying these general tells (construing lack of certainty with lack of interest, for example) without evaluating the specific context of this game. What you're not taking into account is that most of the players here, especially Jason/Josh/Rach/CES/Sotty/Nacho gave very little indication of affiliation early on. Since then I've started to get a better feel for the game. What I don't understand and what you still haven't answered is why you targeted me specifically instead of Rach? I'm not talking about later when you finally started addressing Rach, I'm talking about back when you attacked me and for the next posts following that until you finally addressed Rach.

[FourTrouble]

The fact they have pushed on me to provide more content, while seeing me as town, further reinforced my town read on them. They are not giving me a free pass here. (Something that FT missed in his rant).

I saw that they were pushing you to provide more content. I also saw that they were seeing you are town, as you yourself see. That is the problem I have. I want to know WHY they think you are town. Something they still haven't answered.

[FourTrouble]

I'm starting to agree with CES about Nacho. I really didn't like the "extremely town" comment on Rach in 262 and Nacho's follow up isn't making any sense to me whatsoever. Rach is not even close to busting her ass off to get things done, I get the feeling Nacho's trying to rationalize his read after-the-fact instead of having thought it out before hand.

[FourTrouble]

CES, you never answered Whiskers' question about Rach. I have the same question, do you mind answering it now?

[FourTrouble]

Vote: Whiskers

[FourTrouble]

Vote: Syryana

[FourTrouble]

I get the feeling he skipped over a lot. And if he did read everything, he's clearly not putting any effort into finding scum, just going for an easy target with no reasoning whatsoever. Plus it doesn't help your lynch was given approval by Dazed and Confused.

[FourTrouble]

I get the feeling he skipped over a lot. And if he did read everything, he's clearly not putting any effort into finding scum, just going for an easy target with no reasoning whatsoever. Plus it doesn't help your lynch was given approval by Dazed and Confused.

Can you explain how CES is an easy target?

He quickly hammered Whiskers + Dazed and Confused was voting him. I expect more depth from people replacing into a game and Syryana's vote fell way short of the mark. It doesn't help that I didn't like Rach yesterday but I'm trying to be unbiased here and just taking Syryana alone her move don't sit right with me.

[FourTrouble]

The thought process in Syryana's 383 is superficial, too.

[FourTrouble]

Sotty, please tell me you didn’t actually like 383. Cause the post I read has no depth to it whatsoever. The main point boils down to the asking, why isn’t CES dead? Which completely ignores the fact that CES hammered Whiskers. The question, why isn’t CES dead, is as stupid a fucking question as it gets, and anyone pushing that as a reason to lynch him is pushing a non-starter of an argument. Flip the tables, assume CES is town for a second, and now ask the more reasonable question: if CES is town, would scum kill him after his quick hammer? The answer here seems pretty obvious. Which tells me Syryana has not, for even a second, considered the possibility that CES is town. And I dunno about you but that seems like the kind of thing scum do, not town. At least I know I always try to look at things from both angles.

The rest of 383 is not much better. CES did a lot more than Syryana gives him credit for, and most definitely a lot more than "nothing," which is what Syryana thinks he did. And the idea that CES is policy lynch material is laughable. I can understand Dazed and Confused, they're paranoid. But Syryana is trying to justify the paranoia through shitty logic and that's a problem for me. When push comes to shove, it feels like he's just sheeping Dazed and Confused + going after an easy target.

The points about me are also terrible. I mean, even if CES is scum, I still don't see how we're connected or how it makes any sense to say we're partners. And most of Syryana's points about me are just really dumb. Like calling me scummy because I questioned my initial impression of Sixty. Or saying I called you town to sheep you when in context you were technically following my lead on Rach. 383 is just not well thought out at all. It comes across as a superficial attack on both CES and myself.

[FourTrouble]

FT, what did/do you think of my hammer?

It didn't come as any surprise. I probably would have done the same if you had voted for Whiskers before me. Why did you say Syryana's 383 wasn't bad?

[FourTrouble]

I liked him breaking down his thought process a lot. I think the detail was good, for Four to just crap on all that was pretty poor. The WIFOM nightkill stuff is what it is, but CES did little on day one that much is true.

If you liked the way he broke down his thought process, why didn't you like the part about me? It was equally if not more detailed than the section on CES. I also don't see how the way he broke his thought process down relates to alignment?

[FourTrouble]

So barring the fact that you believe I'm an idiot, what are your thoughts on the goings on round here, FT?

I never said I thought you were an idiot. The fact I'm calling you scum means I think you are less of an idiot than you are coming across as. It comes down to your post being full of shitty logic + clear scum motivation.

[FourTrouble]

I disagree that 383 didn't look informed. Syryana made the basis of her case on CES some WIFOM-filled analysis about how CES is still alive, and that is not something I see coming from a town POV because it means Syryana is assuming CES is scum as a starting point. Town don't assume anything because they are uninformed whereas scum tend to make assumptions about alignments when making their cases because they already know the alignment of everyone.

I do think CES is town though and on the right track in terms of finding Syryana's partner. Dazed and Confused is still town. Sotty is still town too but I have my doubts creeping in. Nacho/Jason are my top suspects after Syryana.

[FourTrouble]

FT, still think Syryana is scum?

Yes.

[FourTrouble]

FT, I've got a really random question. What do you know about Josh's meta?

A lot of lurking + him getting replaced out often.

[FourTrouble]

JasonT1981: Null. He lurked, he voted Whiskers, that's pretty much it. Didn't have enough information to make a decision, so I ignored him.

Nacho: Slight gut scumread. He seemed pretty logical and I agreed with some of his points (namely about jason), but he just had some odd statements. Like making himself a threat to CES as scum, his rigorous defense of RachMarie. Just didn't sit quite right with me.

FourTrouble: My opinion on you morphed from townread to scumread the further I got through the thread. Initial town gut call on the RachMarie ragefest, but I didn't like how vague you were when explaining your reasoning on your reads. I also didn't like how quiet you got after the Sixty fight. I ended up picking you over Nacho to be CES's scumpartner in my argument thanks to the timing of your L-1 and CES's hammer.

CES: Null. Shocking, I know, that I should have a null read on CES. My argument on him arose from mental WIFOM regarding his quickhammer and the fact that he's not dead yet. I won't rehash the argument, but after I figured CES had to either be horrendously misinformed and way off on the scum, or an evil genius playing gambits to fool the other veterans. I went with the evil genius.

So that's the thought process which spawned my argument for CES/FT scum. I'll probably post some more thoughts after we hear back from D+D and more importantly after I sleep.

What I don't like about this is, 1) he didn't have a scumread on me until after I started calling him scum, and 2) he voted for CES when he should have been voting for Nacho (his only real scumread). His actions/behavior does not line up with his thought process. He also voted for Jason instead of Nacho, again when he had Jason down as null but Nacho down as scum. It comes down to Syryana's thought process having very little depth to it (at its clear worst when he's not sheeping someone else's thoughts), and the fact Syryana's not even acting fully on his thoughts.

[FourTrouble]

Jason, I thought 145 referred to a different game?

[FourTrouble]

Syryana said he had a scumread on Nacho, not just on you CES. I didn't ask Syryana why he voted Jason because the question didn't occur to me?

[FourTrouble]

CES, that is a good question though... is there any reason YOU haven't asked it yet? Syryana is voting Jason instead of you, Nacho, or myself, why is that reading as town to you?

[FourTrouble]

Sorry I don't have a lot of time right now, I'm really busy at the moment until March 15.

[FourTrouble]

FT, I've got a really random question. What do you know about Josh's meta?

A lot of lurking + him getting replaced out often.

Next question: how do you know this about his meta?

FT, what did/do you think of my hammer?

It didn't come as any surprise. I probably would have done the same if you had voted for Whiskers before me. Why did you say Syryana's 383 wasn't bad?

You'd have hammered Syryana immediately after if CES had cast an L-1 vote?

I know about Josh from looking through a few of his previous games.

Re: hammering, I dunno to be honest. I've never been put in a position to hammer someone before, but I do know that I've never hesitated to vote for people I'm confident are scum, don't see why hammering would be any different.

[FourTrouble]

Ironically, just as I say that I consider voting for Nacho and then stop myself realizing it would be a hammer lol... I don't think we're allowed to talk about other games we're in, right? but I will say what Sotty is saying about Jason rings true. I still don't find Syryana's recent posts genuine. Syryana/Nacho makes a lot of sense, to be honest.

[FourTrouble]

I'm not gonna be around much until this weekend, then expect a major increase in my activity.

[FourTrouble]

I'd like to hear why CES is voting me as well.

I didn't want to hammer because I had been busy the previous week and wasn't confident to make that decision yet, and after what happened with Whiskers, I wanted to hear what Nacho had to say first. I've never hammered someone before. It wasn't something I felt comfortable doing after just skimming the past couple of pages.

I still think Syryana is scum.

Vote Syryana

[FourTrouble]

There wasn't really a logical case I could make against Nacho that didn't sound like I was copying either you or D+C. Trust me, I tried.

Why would you care about that? If you thought Nacho was scum for the same reasons as someone else, why not say that?

[FourTrouble]

Syryana, if I was null on page 8, at what point did I become a scum read? The moment I defended CES from reasoning you now admit was weak?

[FourTrouble]

FT - The final scumpartner. He was fiendishly aggressive on just about everyone (the RachMarie misrep, the Sixty attack, the attack on my 383 implicating him, etc.) except Nacho. He even contradicted himself, saying that if a hammer situation arose on someone he was confident were scum that he would feel no problem hammering. Yet, when his buddy Nacho was on the line, he blinked. Now, I'm all for being cautious on a hammer, but it's wildly out of character for the otherwise aggressive FT. The Sixty kill also makes sense coming from him considering that attack they led on him on Day 1.

Another scumtell I've noticed is he's fixated on me. He hasn't said a word regarding anyone else in the game since I joined (I sit corrected, he had a single line saying his reads in #449, but the point still stands). His singlemindedness in pursuing me is quite odd, especially since I let my case against him slide away while I was sitting decoy on Jason. He spent all of Day 2 tunneling me and providing short answers to questions from CES and D+C. In short, he waffled on his partner and has been tunneling on me for the sake of consistency.

I didn't aggressively attack everyone, in fact I wouldn't even consider my attacks that aggressive on anyone except you. You also seem to forget I defended CES when he was on the verge of getting lynched.

I didn't really contradict myself, hammering Whiskers back then was not a surprise because it was something that at the time made sense. In retrospect, I realize there is no reason to rush lynches like that. And when I skimmed Timeshift mafia, it made that fact pretty clear. It is a lot more pro-town to reassess everything before hammering.

For the record, if I were scum, I'd have hammered Nacho without hesitation. He was obviously getting lynched. I had already voiced support for his lynch. By taking time to reassess things, I basically forfeit all town cred I could have got from his lynch. I get how it may look scummy.

What I don't understand is the way Syryana's opinion keeps changing -- first I was scum because I defended CES, then I'm scum because of my exchange with Sixty and my L-1 vote on Whiskers, then I'm scum for hesitating to hammer Nacho, and now I'm scum because I have pursued him even when he stopped attacking me? How does any of that even make any sense? The reason I've "fixated" on him is straightforward, Dazed and Confused and Sotty are extremely town, CES is probably town and if he's mafia then I'll feel like an idiot, and between Syryana and Jason, its no contest who is more scummy.

[FourTrouble]

Syryana, I didn't attack Sixty so I'm not sure why you keep pushing that point. I also don't appreciate the way you are mocking me, even if you are scum there is no need for that. Yes, Nacho used the same expression about Rach. I was the one to point it out as a problem in THAT context, in THIS context the expression makes sense. Sotty IS extremely town, she's considering different options instead of just lynching me, her thought process has mirrored mine at many points of the game, her moments of paranoia look very genuine, and her vote on Nacho doesn't look anything like a bus. I put Sotty next to Dazed and Confused in terms of towniness.

If I am town, you would lynch Sotty? Okay, suppose both me and Sotty are town, who would you lynch?

[FourTrouble]

FT, how well do you think you played in that linked scum game?

I thought pretty good, I had a few players convinced, others not as much.

[FourTrouble]

CES, did you read through my scum game? What about Syryana's scum game?

[FourTrouble]

Unvote

Hmm, Syryana's unvote looks pretty town. I'm gonna take a look at Jason again.

[FourTrouble]

vote: Josh

yup, that was the reaction to my post I was looking.

Someone comes in auto wanting the lynch without question or hesitation, and has since said 0 about it when it died down.

I am thinking Nacho, Josh scum team too btw.

Fuck, Jason/Nacho interaction is a lot worse than I recall -- need to think on this.

[FourTrouble]

And it gets worse on D2, much worse.

Vote Jason

[FourTrouble]

Sotty, I noted that discrepancy at first too but there is a big difference between your L-1 vote and Jason's L-1 vote -- the quantity/quality of reasoning behind it. I just don't see why scum would take a step back to reevaluate the situation. Why wouldn't he just push my lynch through?

[FourTrouble]

One post makes you think I'm town after you've gone after me all this time?

Your post made me reconsider Jason. It wasn't just your post alone.

[FourTrouble]

CES, what did you think of Syryana's unvote + his earlier hammer on Nacho?

[FourTrouble]

quite a few of his votes have been without reason and seems happy to lynch most people at times
his L-1 vote opening up for the Quickhammer without much reasoning
seems to be mostly agreeing with others instead of doing his own work

What votes have been without reason? The L-1 vote on Whiskers? I didn't think a reason was necessary for that vote, it was pretty obvious.

The rest of your reasons to lynch me are bullshit. I've been putting out plenty of my own analysis, dunno where you get the idea I'm just agreeing with people, and I'm not happy to just lynch anyone, I'm happy to lynch my scumreads.

[FourTrouble]

What makes my reassessment of Syryana scummy? He did something that I thought wouldn't have come from scum, I took a new look at Jason, and decided that was a better place for my vote.

[FourTrouble]

I did do some meta research on Josh -- he was inactive and replaced out of nearly every game. It was Whiskers that got my vote, not Josh.

Sotty, did you see Jason's reasons for voting me? Is even a single one of them an accurate representation of my play?

What kind of defense are you guys looking for? I dunno what to say at this point, should I explain why I think I'm town? I already explained why I took my vote off Syryana, it was the combination of a towny post + taking a new look at Jason.

Dazed and Confused's analysis is really good on Syryana. I honestly am not sure which one it is at this point, there are really good reasons to vote for both Syryana and Jason.

Syryana hesitance to hammer me was very towny. I know Sotty disagrees but I just don't see why scum would stall any longer when on the verge of getting a lynch. Jason/Nacho interactions also make the most sense as buddies. There were a few things that stuck out to me when I reread them, I'll try to explain in more detail when I have time later tonight.

[FourTrouble]

You guys all had such good analysis. This was such a tough game to play, everyone seemed like such obvious town I had no idea who to go after. I have a lot to improve on for my next scum game.

CES was pretty impressive with the way he figured things out, definitely taught me a thing or three about catching scum.