Newbie 1351: Hyrule's Under Attack.. Interesting..-GAME OVER

Z7-852 · Post Post #588 (isolation #0) » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:37 pm

Replaced Fropome. Gonna read the thread tomorrow with better time.

Z7-852 · Post Post #595 (isolation #1) » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:29 pm

Damn It's hard read the posts when there are so many replacements. I skimmed through the thread and my first expression is the fallowing.

fferyllt - Leaning Town

Mac Birdland - Leaning Town
goodmorning (IC - Null
Z7-852 Fropome - Null
Eye Urn - Unsure
CareyHammer (SE) - Scum/NUll
Deras - Leaning Scum
ArcAngel9 - Leaning scum
Revenus (SE) - Leaning Scum

Z7-852 · Post Post #597 (isolation #2) » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:53 pm

Damn I misclicked when trying to edit post above. Ignore it because the reads where copy pasted from above and they are not my own.

My real thoughts are as following.

fferyllt - Leaning Town
At early game (and after it) had kept the game going without being too aggressive toward anyone. Getting information is good and we have had some.

Eye urn - Leaning Town
Have also been digging information witch is nice. Not really much to say against or for. For now I have a gut feeling about him leaning town.

Goodmorning - Leaning town
Seems to play in the same team as fferyllt. Might be piggybagging but I would say there are at least two townies.

Deras - Leaning town
Mac - Leaning town
Two new players that haven't given much but still they seem both townies.

Revenus - Null
Sometimes giving good insight but sometimes seems to be little off. But still keeping the wheels rolling and not being aggressive about it. He is not pushing the lynch nor denying it's usefulness. Little hard to tell but lets him be null for now.

CareyHammer - Leaning Scum
Too much lurking and too little action. Maybe not a scum move but at least a reason to put pressure against him. Also have been pressuring players that I think are leaning toward town. CareyHammer have been not really gave much explanations for his votes. Thread this long should at least give some ideas who to vote.

ArcAngel9 - Leaning scum
Lurking again. Not saying that all lurkers are scum but players that don't play don't give any information for townfolk.

This is just what my gut feeling is after skimming the thread. I haven't read the whole thing and really don't have strong reads on anyone. I would vote CareyHammer or ArcAngel9 but don't want to drop the to L-1 on basis of just on fast catch up.

Z7-852 · Post Post #598 (isolation #3) » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:54 pm

After further reading I have to say that both CareyHammer and ArcAngel9 cannot be scum. Now I'am actually leaning toward ArchAngel9. CareyHammer could have played completly random so far. I would say he is town and AA9 is scum. If not this then other way around.

Z7-852 · Post Post #603 (isolation #4) » Wed Apr 10, 2013 4:32 am

Yeah that earlier post was copy pasted from Arc. It was early morning when I digged into this thread and wasn't really paying enough attention. Pressed Submit instead of Preview. Simple mistake that I corrected later on in my first "real" post.

Z7-852 · Post Post #637 (isolation #5) » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:40 pm

It's always interesting to play with me because I'am on the other side of the world looking from you. While I sleep you play the game and I have to play catch up during morning. Normally I use lurking as a reason to put pressure on someone but don't think I'am lurking if I don't write more that 1 or 2 post a day. I will try to keep my post relatively long and informative about my thoughts. And just for me would you not use shorthands for peoples names. It's already hard to me to learn them and it's much harder if I try to remember shortenings.

↑ ArcAngel9 wrote:
I gave the reads, why do you want to know my reasons, I would put my reasons when i vote them.

Town needs to always give reasoning for everything they do. Especially if you are vanilla townie, for vanilla town don't have anything else except their reads on other players voting behavior. It's poor play to not give reasoning for what you say. Also your reads are from quite long time ago in the early game. Lot have happened since then that have clearly changed your reads but you haven't told us why. You said that you have read those posts (#627) but haven't opened your thought process.

↑ Mac wrote:I find it unlikely that AA9 and Carey are scumbuddies but I strongly disagree with the idea that they are definitely not.

I think it's extremely low chance. If they really are scum buddies town has a easy win. Even if you do a wrong lynch during day 2 (and get a mafia during day 1) we have this game wrapped. I just can't believe it's this easy.
Mac is giving good reasoning and is asking the right questions. For that reason I will drop him a point in my scumometer. This doesn't mean that he is town for certain but at least he is productive and could be easier to read later on. For what comes to math (#624) he did, the same reasoning can be applied to any three players so it really doesn't give us much reasoning.

fferyllt is pushing little too aggressively. It looks little opportunist like ArcAngel9 said in post #622. I know we don't have much time and we should lynch someone. Still this feels like a witch hunt where fferyllt is focusing on one player without giving much thought on other players. He must have better read than me, because I have just skimmed through the thread. I still think fferyllt is a townie and he is most likely helping town by pressuring ArcAngel9 but I will still up him a point.

ArcAngel already seems quite depressive (#635) in her attempts of trying to get the scumwagon off of her. Either there are really scum there or a newbie/poor player. Latter don't seem like a option so it has to be the first. Would up him but can't. Still won't vote though. There are enough pressure without putting him under L-1. I'am willing to lynch her when time comes (in few days). I really need to prolong this for I haven't read everything and I want to have more information on all of you players.

Scumometer (tm)
Eye urn < fferyllt< Goodmorning < Deras < Mac< Revenus < CareyHammer < ArcAngel9

Z7-852 · Post Post #644 (isolation #6) » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:29 am

If you haven't yet noticed

goodmorning

English isn't my native language. So pronoun you pointed out (#640) was wrong. I also mix he and she and other stuff like that. Also I might have problems putting my thoughts on writing. Also I have only skimmed (not read, not assimilated) the thread. That's why I want to prolong the day little bit longer so I can catch up and make better reads on players.

What comes to

fferyllt

(#639), I really don't think she is a scum. Just saying that while pushing one scum it's useful to get reads on their companions. So too aggressive play doesn't yield as much information that more conservative way would.

Revenus

what are your "solid" townreads (#641)? I would were much like to hear other peoples opinions. Also if you have solid reasoning it helps other players to confirm your role.

ArcAngel9

, what is your problem (#642) with large posts? I think it's better that people summarize all their thoughts on large post instead of scattering them all over the place. People really need to do more summarizing. It also helps replacement players to catch up faster when they really don't need to read 20 pages of chit chat (what I did not do). Also ArcAngel9 still tries to derail focus off her (#642) and this time goodmorning is the target. I would like to vote for you but can't. If CareyHammer's replacement comes and sees one player at L-1 they might hammervote them do dead without thinking too much about it.

Currently I don't have strong read on the other scum. Can't really tell other players apart when everyone is participating on ArcAngel9 lynch. But now I will go to sleep and my next post will be in 9-10 hours. Have fun.

Scumometer (tm)
Eye urn < fferyllt< Goodmorning < Deras < Mac< Revenus < CareyHammer < ArcAngel9

Z7-852 · Post Post #652 (isolation #7) » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:29 pm

ArcAngel9

is right on one thing (#645). It's hard to get information when we are goinging around and around on one player. Like I said earlier I don't really have good reads on anyone yet. She also seems to steam up and losing her cool (#645). Throwing accusations left and right without more reasoning than long posts and that we are pressuring her. Now even she pulls her pressure off CareyHammer. Seem like she don't have any reads on anyone and just tries to get focus off of her.

After I have joined the game

goodmorning

have not really given too much content. Also I it seem odd that experienced player only gives read lists (#645) without much of reasoning behind it. And some one have to have more reads on this point than just that everybody is null. I really have to up her few point. Most of her post have been single line observations about people. I should really read the whole thread to get better reads but I really don't have time for read that much. Also other people that I trust don't have either strong townreads on you.

Thank you

Revenus

about your thoughts (#650) about players. But I would still like to have more content from you. Would help to confirm you as a townie. On the other hand it's useless to do posts in sake of doing posts. This being said.

Eye urn

,

Deras

or

Mac

haven't given anything in content in over a day. Might be just busy or they are lurking around to wait for L-1 or something like that. In any case I will up them little bit.

This was relatively slow day and much didn't happen that makes me chance my mind about players. I'am really starting to fear that CareyHammer replacement comes and ends the day without much thought about it but I will still VOTE: ArcAngel9. I do this just to keep the game going and so that people would make more content. We will also see if anyone takes a hammervote.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Revenus < Eye urn < Deras < Mac < Goodmorning < CareyHammer < ArcAngel9

Z7-852 · Post Post #656 (isolation #8) » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:46 pm

I can UNVOTE: ArcAngel9 if that makes you feel more relaxed (#655) fferyllt. It just seems that this game is not going anywhere if we just wait around and throw same accusations around. At least I haven't had more information during these past few days. I would like to continue the day for bit longer in order to get more information but don't see point dragging it on if players are not writing anything. ArcAngel9 is my only solid scum read. I don't have good reads on anyone else so far.
What comes to goodmornings claim (#654) of me flip-flopping I really don't feel like it. I'am just making my real expressions about the game and that's the reason why I really have solid roles for any player. My only good read is ArcAngel9 and have hunch on rest. Currently I have no idea who could be ArcAngel9s buddy.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Revenus < Eye urn < Deras < Mac < Goodmorning < CareyHammer < ArcAngel9

Z7-852 · Post Post #664 (isolation #9) » Fri Apr 12, 2013 8:04 am

I agree with fferyllt (#657) and Mac (#658) with point that someone being at L-1 when new player comes is a risk. But this is a risk I'am willing to take in order to get more information. There are couple of reasons for that. I have a strong read on ArcAngel9 and if replacement does something that stupid at end of day 1 (understandable in later game) we get information on their role also. And about players game style.

I would like to say that how

goodmorning

acted (#659) is a solid scum tell. Blaming townie for not having reads after being in game for few days. But this cannot be the case if ArcAngel9 is a scum. There is a slim chance that a scum would vote (#662) for other scum even in this situation. So either ArcAngel9 and goodmorning are in opposite teams or ArcAngel plays brilliant gambit when she knows she will be lynched. Goodmorning still looks very scumish. Tough luck when my two other scum reads are players that don't seems to be in the same team as my strongest scum candidate.

I will be heading to sleep for know. I will be V/LA during weekend but will still most likely to post at least 1 message each day. Please make for content during weekend so we don't need to use lurking as a lynching reason.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Revenus < Eye urn < Deras < Mac < Goodmorning < CareyHammer < ArcAngel9

Z7-852 · Post Post #673 (isolation #10) » Sat Apr 13, 2013 10:30 pm

I really don' believe what ArcAngel9 (#665) said that she and goodmorning are a scum team. I found this to be most unlikely. Also unlike goodmorning said (#671) I also don't think that ArcAngel and VisceraEyes (CareyHammer) are a scum team. I stated this much earlier (#598). But I can't rule out the possibility of VisceraEyes and goodmorning being buddies. That's a real possibility and currently best possibility that I have for scum partners. This being said I still think that ArcAngel9 might be a scum and I just haven't yet pinpointed her partner.

I agree with Eye Urn (#666) that townies must always put every thought they have down on a paper. Even if you have problems delivering the exact thought you should open your thought process. This helps other players to organize their thoughts and gives better reads on the players. Townies have nothing to hide so they should give out as much information as humanly possible. Goodmorning logic on the topic (#671) might apply if we would believe that player who claims to think the same way is also townie. But I do not. It might help the player thinking the same way but not any other player (and least the player making the original claims).

Don't know about Eye Urns claim (#666) that goodmorning is trying to push people apart just for thinking same way. This might be strategy for a scum but at least goodmorning haven't played a good IC. She haven't broken down the logic behind the claims as well as IC should have. Might be scum, might be a poor IC. More a read goodmornings post more I think she's a scum. Deras pointed out the same concert (#667) that I have about goodmornings play style. She doesn't give any reasoning behind her logic. Or at least the reasoning is too minimal for my taste. Her latest post (#671) have been improvement to the right direction.

I'am really concern about this VisceraEyes fellow. She/he have been in the game for almost a day and not as much as a hello so far.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Revenus < Eye urn < Deras < Mac < Goodmorning < VisceraEyes < ArcAngel9

Z7-852 · Post Post #701 (isolation #11) » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:18 pm

It's about time (#700). I completely agree with you people (#681) that this game haven't really moved at all and it's frustrating. There haven't been anything new to write about so I haven't done anything.

Once VisceraEyes have read the thread I want reads on every person/slot in as much detail as humanly possible. More information you can plug to your next post better you seem in my eyes. Providing that your logic is convincing.

If we are wrong about

ArcAngel9

we will still get more information about the game if she flips as a vanilla townie. Unlike Deras (#677) this doesn't worry me too much. At least it will kick the game going. Also like fferyllt pointed out (#685) it's helps the town if ArcAngel9 is flipped as townie. I don't know why but ArcAngel9 last post (#684) seems too desperate to be a scum post. I would think scums would just give up at this point and try to draw attention off their buddies. If ArcAngel9 is a scum she have being doing good job at this for still I can't think anyone to be her ally.

If ArcAngel9 isn't scum my leading canditate for it is

goodmorning

. I don't say I agree with ArcAngel9 (#688) about her meta read on goodmorning, but I still think she have been odd during this game. Like Mac (#693) I really can't trust meta as a scumtell. Unless there are tens of games where to draw conclusions, the statistic student in me don't allow to draw causality here.

Now I'am going to make my case against goodmorning like Mac (#693) pointed out. We have to think alternatives in case that ArcAngel9 turns out to be townie. I still think goodmorning is only leaning toward scum but I will vote for her just so that not all our effort goes to the ArcAngel9.

VOTE: goodmorning

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Revenus < Eye urn < Deras < Mac < goodmorning < VisceraEyes < ArcAngel9

Z7-852 · Post Post #707 (isolation #12) » Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:03 am

Honesty and behavior analysis are only tools vanilla townies have for scum hunting. More information every player gives easier it is to see if they are honest or if they behave oddly. By withholding information you are not lying but you are not being honest. Refusing to give information to town is similar to lurking (which is ultimate form of denying information from oneself). What comes to my post, they may not hold much information like VisceraEyes pointed out (#702) but they summarize everything I know or think I know.
I also disagree with VisceraEyes on the idea (#705) of focusing on one player. We know there are 2 scums in the game. If we focus on one we lose track of the other. On other hand if we think everybody can be suspect, we can gather evidence (to one way or the other) on everyone.
I earlier stated (#673) that I had 3 prime candidates for scum and they were goodmorning, VisceraEyes and ArcAngel9. I also stated that it was hard to me see any of the two being ArcAngel9's partner. After VisceraEyes posts I suspect him more and it seems even more likely that goodmorning and VisceraEyes are scum buddies. So I'am downgrading ArcAngel9 for now. She still looks suspicious but there are now better candidates for me.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Revenus < Eye urn < Deras < Mac < ArcAngel9 < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Post Post #911 (isolation #13) » Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:43 pm

Well that was a active night. Lots to read and comment on. I'am sorry you guys (#730) but summary posting is the only way for me to play this game due to fact that you mostly play when I'am sleeping. And this wagon against me went up fast like Mac (#760) stated but that's not a big problem.

First I couldn't disagree more with VisceraEyes (#710) about the way he thinks this game works. I presume that scum wouldn't likely lynch a fellow scum. So when there are many wagons scum must choose which wagon to go on. This tells the other people who could be their partners.

VisceraEyes

seemed (#719) too eager to start a bandwagon against someone. Town should be little more careful about their acts and don't rush into things. VisceraEyes says he wants to focus on one player but is still open (#736) to vote someone else. For me this looks like a attempt to get a fast lynch. Something that I think is scummy. I know that he says he also looks at other people (#775), but won't share his ideas or reads. When other players have tried to point out flaws in his logic, VisceraEyes still refuse (#802) to open up the thought process more. I also don't understand the reason why he dropped the wagon (#810) without any reasoning. Looks like he is fishing a easy lynch and when he didn't get one he switched the target.

I don't know if it is just me but VisceraEyes seems to be more suspicious about players that disagree (#798) (#802) than players that are more with him on the wagon (#799). This isn't anything abnormal in it's self but to me its looks like he's trying to butter up his supporters. This also would answer fferyllt's (#858) question.

I understand why

ArcAngel9

would come (#717) aboard on bandwagon against me. She's worried about her own hide. Can't understand why VisceraEyes (#783) don't understand this. ArcAngel9 is currently just trying to draw attention away from herself and to other players. But she really haven't give too much reasoning behind her votes which still concerns me a lot. She even admits my logic to be true (#896).

Also

goodmorning

jumped (#721) into lynching party so fast. I know she have been pressuring me little but when opportunity showed she didn't resist a bit. Still it looks like She thinks this slot is scummy because how my Fropome played the game. This seems little hollow reason at this stage of came. But once she opened upped the case and game some reasoning (#830) there were more to shew on. I really can't comment on the whole Fropome case because I haven't had time to read the whole thread. Still it seem that she is hanging too strongly on her reads about Fropome (#851) and not weighing latest facts more. Again looks like she is resisting to give out on a good wagon. I also agree that using CAPS (#856) makes someone seems frustrated and scummy. Goodmorning is really starting to lose her marbles (#888). This isn't good for town or for scums.
What comes to goodmornings IC comment (#869) it couldn't be more wrong. By creating possible teams we can eliminate people outside. Using this we can focus more on suspicious players. Also thinking ahead is always good even before the flip. Not saying we shouldn't focus on other tells but scumpairing gives us more possible information as long as logic behind it's valid.

Mac

gave some good points (#773) in his summary post. Not only because he agrees me on that VIsceraEyes is too eager to lynch someone.

For me it still looks like goodmorning and VisceraEyes are my prime suspects. ArcAngel9 haven't got much focus during last night but won't chance my stand on her either. Goodmorning also didn't give reason (#851) (#857) why she didn't want to see VisceraEyes to get lynched. I think that VisceraEyes (#842) saw same pattern than me. There really can't be two scums in goodmorning, ArcAngel9 and Z7-852 set. There for I must conclude that VisceraEyes and goodmorning must be a team (untill I get more information). Currently I'am not willing to lynch anyone else except one of these two.

This was really heavy post and focusing really on my to prime suspects. More I read the postings of the last night more I was certain about my stand.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Revenus < Eye urn < Deras < Mac < ArcAngel9 < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Post Post #915 (isolation #14) » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:33 am

(#911) Yeah I agree that my post was pretty bad. Too much text to cover and didn't have time to really work on the text. I think VE started the second wagon so that people wouldn't judge him if he would hammervote right away. If you enter a game and just hammervote someone you are quite easily painted as a scum.

I cant really believe that people just keep on dropping from this game. This is completely impossible to play.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Revenus < Eye urn < Deras < Mac < ArcAngel9 < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Post Post #921 (isolation #15) » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:29 am

Dear God this is awful game. Can you lynch kill me out of this? Not really playing to win conditions but if first day will last over 40 pages then this game will be hell to deal with.

Z7-852 · Post Post #1103 (isolation #16) » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:56 am

If you haven't noticed I don't and can't write more than 1 or 2 post per day. I live on other time zone and while you play I sleep. That is also a reason why my post are so damn long and poorly structured.

I can't believe how you let

VisceraEyes

control you guys like that. When his first wagon failed he randomly started (#926) and started bluntly budding ffreryllt (#927) (#996). And then he's starting to buddy everyone else (#1005). That isn't right way to hunt scums. Give some logical reasoning and let people to beside them self whom they want to vote.
Also his play style and preferencies have chanced to drastically. First VisceraEyes said he wants to focus on one player and then starts asking (#956) about other possible wagons. Also he thought my scumometer (tm) is scummy looking and makes one of his own (#968). I can't trust a player that chances his mind like this.

I also can't believe how easily

fferyllt

jumps into these bandwagons. When I first joined the game fferyllt seemed more reasonable and task-oriented but now looks like she is going from bandwagon to other. Can't trust this kind of turn coats. Also the way it looks like she isn't thinking about her votes (#1101) as much as it first looked to me. Might be that she is fishing information from players which is useful for the town. I understand that she is trying to find a town core (#1057) but I don't know why she trust VisceraEyes to be part of it. I really don't need to waste time to make case that she is a townie. More focusing on other players.

Then there is

ArcAngel9

. When focus is of off her she is starting to buddy players (#1033) (#1074) to join her in Eye urn lynch. But at least she gave some good reasons (#1031) for doing so. I just don't think there were much a case here. ArcAngel9 really haven't made a convincing case against Eye Urn that I could follow or agree on. I also didn't found her rant about self lynch (1081) believable. Looked more about something rehearsed.

In my opinion

Mac

isn't just cheerleading wagons. He's giving his reads and and thought process on players and not jumping into fast conclusions. I really don't agree using meta but there really isn't anything wrong about that kind of play style. Meta just isn't as useful as focusing on the game at hand. Her latest post really haven't chanced my mind to one way or the other. But He should still give reasons for this Eye urn bandwagon. I read all the unread posts and couldn't find one well summarized case against him.

I kind of currently trust

Eye urn

. He have been logical and informative in his posts. And haven't spammed the game with useless chit-chat. He could though open up more about his though process. I don't completely agree with him on his reads on goodmorning (#1026) but goodmorning is still my prime target. I don't like though how Eye urn is willing (#1026) to lynch someone he thinks is a townie (no matter how bad they play). He does give reasons for this (#1051) and I kind of agree with him. It is a burden to carry players on who are not helping. Not trusting him as much as I used to. But can't really but him to my scum pile based on these posts.

For

goodmorning

I couldn't even follow her first (#1070) unread post. That post didn't even contain a hint of defense or interest in other peoples opinions. Then she makes a second completely useless post (#1076). It's like she isn't really even interested in the game.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Revenus < Deras < Mac < Eye urn < ArcAngel9 < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Post Post #1107 (isolation #17) » Thu Apr 18, 2013 5:30 am

There are three main concerns about that case (#959).
1. VisceraEyes didn't represented it. He just said ArcAngel9 thought something way back.
2. He didn't try to back ArcAngel9 with math. He just pointed out that according to math, if roles are randomly picked there is a high probability that there is a scum in IC/2SE group just due to the relevant size of the group. This also was way back in the early game.
3. Eye urn have always withheld personal ideas and reasons. This is poor play in my regards but still in line with his play so far.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Revenus < Deras < Mac < Eye urn < ArcAngel9 < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Post Post #1189 (isolation #18) » Thu Apr 18, 2013 6:40 pm

Could you please stop the useless chit-chat and really focus on the play. There where 4 unread pages and only few post really worth mentioning. And I'am saying this again. Using shortenings for peoples names (like Fe) confuses people and makes the posts harder to follow. This is not real time chat so you cant take the extra seconds to write the whole name.

First it still seems that

goodmorning

isn't really focusing on the game (#1124). Her activity have fallen drastically these past few days. She doesn't even bother to write down her logic anymore. She gives some reasons (#1181) but don't really refer to specific posts. This makes her case a lot harder to follow.

Deras

on the other hand gives solid arguments (#1179) about actions of other players. Not sure if he is just trying to protect Eye Urn from lynch but to me his reasons (#1183) seems more convincing than any other case made against Eye Urn. They are also easier to follow when they link to other posts.

Everybody is slowly getting irritated by this game. Really doesn't give good impression to the new players.

Eye Urn

should really give more reasons (#1129) because there are really no reason why to withhold information as a town. He's not being active nor informative lately. I'am losing my trust on him.

ArcAngel9

is being too eager to lynch (#1136). I understand that there isn't much time but still people should make better cases against each other. Not sure is her asking for the night (#1160) is sign of scumminess or that she is pissed of the long day. I would have to say latter. Also what comes to her post about me driving wagon off of me (#1163) because I didn't post a single post during my wagon.

And for fun of you all I will be

LA/V till monday

. But on the other hand I wouldn't like to lynch anyone else except goodmorning or VisceraEyes. ArcAngel9 wouldn't be completely unfeasible lynch for me but I will keep my vote on goodmorning.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Revenus < Deras < Mac < Eye urn < ArcAngel9 < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Post Post #1192 (isolation #19) » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:08 pm

VisceraEyes is far to eager to lynch anyone else (Me, Mac, EyeUrn) but fferyllt. Eye Urn is not on my scum pile yet (while slowly going there). So lynching Eye Urn is not meeting halfway (#1191). You are just too eager to kill people for me to trust you. For me it looks like you are poking everyone and buddying the rest. Like I don't see how you went from not wanting to lynch Eye Urn (#968) to randomly picking him (#1130) to be your next target. Most of players have been quite passive these past few days so I can't see why you didn't pick someone else.

If you want to meet halfway we can kill goodmorning. At one point (#909) you were almost ready to hammer him.
But if you want to get out of my scum pool you have to present your cases better and not just start a new bandwagon after other have failed. That is scummy as it gets in my books.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Revenus < Deras < Mac < Eye urn < ArcAngel9 < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Post Post #1194 (isolation #20) » Fri Apr 19, 2013 2:32 am

I have nothing against starting new bandwagons. I earlier said that focusing on one player is bad. But equally bad is to start new bandwagons without reasons. It might work as a icebreaker in the early game but in this stage it's just looks like VisceraEyes is willing to lynch anyone no matter what. For these reasons I try to build a case (town or scum) against every player.

Z7-852 · Post Post #1339 (isolation #21) » Sun Apr 21, 2013 4:30 am

I have been away for few days and basically not much interesting have happened. I like how people have opened up about their reads. This helps to figure players out better. Goodmorning in particularly haven't given complete thoughts in long time so it eases my mind when she finally does (#1287). Don't know why everyone is ranking VisceraEyes to be a townie, but it's more likely that I'am wrong than rest of you (fferyllt and GuyInFreezer). These two players are at least my strongest town reads at the moment.

Game really started moving when GuyInFreezer put ArcAngel9 to L-1. Problem here is that nobody is trying to derail this bandwagon. That means even if we hit a scum we don't get much information about other scum. To me ArcAngel9 reactions (#1315) seem to vulgar to be lies. Ether that or she is a really good actress. Well we will have much better ground to start playing this game after the night.

Currently I don't have time to write long posts. I'am V/LA as I said earlier but I still try to catch up as much as I can.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < GuyInFreezer < Deras < Mac < Eye urn < ArcAngel9 < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Thu Apr 25, 2013 10:39 am

Will post a better text on the morning but I still find goodmorning scummy. Will also make a better case after good night sleep.

VOTE: goodmorning

Z7-852 · Post Post #1444 (isolation #23) » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:16 pm

Sorry about inactivity during weekend. Had some essays to write and deadline was on Monday. Now I can give my impression about these last few days. When last day ended I was thinking goodmorning was looking scummy and I knew that nobody wants to lynch VisceraEyes.

To me it looks weird that

goodmorning

is so certain (#1390) about Eye urn being a scum. Sure he acted little odd at the end of the day 1 but we all were getting to edge in there.
When goodmorning hammered a townie that at least didn't improve her case so after night I replaced my vote on her. goodmorning also have been pushing AA wagon from day 1 (#623) and quite strongly in my opinion. After AA was flipped town that makes her look little more suspicious.

VisceraEyes

continues to buddy fferyllt (#1397) like he did during last day. I still don't like how open this is, but it might just be a personal trait. It also seems odd that scum left two most active players alive after first night. This is not proof of any sort but at least suspicious. Also it was VisceraEyes that first wants (#1405) to ignore this kind of reasoning.

Don't like how Eye urn have been inactive but as I have also been inactive this would be extremely hypocrisy of me.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < GuyInFreezer < Mac < Eye urn < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:34 pm

Just because most players currently find VisceraEyes to be too townie to be lynched. I would prefer to lynch him but currently goodmorning is more probable lynch to happen. During day 1 I also hypothesed about possible VisceraEyes and goodmorning scum team. I still see this as a good possibility.

Z7-852 · Post Post #1517 (isolation #25) » Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:57 pm

During end of last day I had been more certain that ArcAngel9 was a town and after this started lean more and more against goodmorning and VisceraEyes. I'am not saying that being wrong is a scumtell like goodmorning thought (#1448), I'am saying that hammering someone that you think is town is a one. Also unlike VisceraEyes said (#1452) I'am scumhunting but I don't see Eye urn as a viable target unlike other players. Cases against him just haven't been convincing enough for me.

Also

VisceraEyes

is again creating a new wagons (#1454). I know that examining players is useful and we should get as much reads on everyone. I have stated this before. Problem is that again VisceraEyes gives quite slim arguments. To me VisceraEyes quick goodmorning vote (#1483) looked odd. I know that he have been flipping like fish on dry land but this was fast on/off even for him. He have held his votes longer before. Might be scum who likes to show that someone (goodmorning) isn't on the same team. Once again quite small thing and nothing to convincing. I will try to summarize my case against VisceraEyes like GuyInFreeze asked (#1477).

First he is creating new wagons with little reason behind them. In my opinion this doesn't give pressure against scums like it should because there is no case you should be arguing against. To me it looks like almost anyone will do as a lynch. He have been acting like this since he joined the game. He doesn't create cases that can't be examined and proven wrong or right. Either he doesn't have one or he is withholding information and both are bad. And third reason is his budding attempts that seemed to have worked. This happened more when he joined the game but gave me strong scum feeling. Mostly is small things additional to this that have added to my scum feeling. I really can't have any solid information on anyone so I must trust my gut.

I know

goodmorning

currently doesn't like me but she is too eager to lynch (#1462). It just looks to me like a next hammervote is coming. I understand that goodmorning might have stress in real life but the she should try to play the game. It gives wrong impressions when mood is strongly effecting content of the posts. This isn't scum tell but behavioral that doesn't help town. She have been posting uninformative posts during last day that really doesn't help me to chance my mind about her.

I find

fferyllts

slow pace comfortable unlike goodmorning (#1462). It tells that she isn't jumping into conclusions and thinks her actions before hand. To me this looks more like a townish behavior that jumping allover the place. I know that fferyllt have been going to multiple wagons like GyuInFreeze pointed out (#1473). Back then I said that she wasn't thinking as much as I first thought but at that point this wasn't just enough to make shake my town read too much. After this she have been playing better (in my opinion) and that's why I haven't been too concern. If behavior would have come a pattern I would have to had rethink my town read on her.

I'am becoming curious about

Mac

. He seems to be diverting attention away from himself. Doesn't give any own reeds but always asks (#1447) for other players. Even when reads are quite easy to find with ISO function (#664). Unlike EyeUrn that have just disappeared Mac seems to be lurking. This makes him look a little bit scummier. Still not saying that he's a certain scum but starting to lean away from null.

I can't defend against things that my predecessor have done but I think I have been reasonable consistent in my posts and thought patterns. I don't understand how I'am not scumhunting even if my current scumpool is different that rest of you guys.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < GuyInFreezer < Eye urn < Mac < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Post Post #1520 (isolation #26) » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:10 pm

In post 1518, VisceraEyes wrote:"Creating new bandwagons" is what my Z post was...the only bandwagon that's allowed is the one that exists already? Z for real what are you even going on about?!!

It's not creating new bandwagons (by the way never used word bandwagon in my post so that's not my quote) that I have issue with. It's creating new wagons without solid case to back them up. It's ok in early game (random voting phase) but to me it looks like you are randomly voting everyone that you haven't yet buddied in your side.

Z7-852 · Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:17 pm

In post 1521, VisceraEyes wrote:You admit that your case against me is nothing but "small things". You're inventing a narrative that fits with your opinion. Why don't you read my filter again and see if you can argue that I've given no reasoning for my votes.

When I don't get any other information I have to rely on the small things. I can ignore one or two suspicous things but when they are starting to form a pattern it's enough reason for me to declare someone to be a scum. At let us see your votes so far in the game.

Spoiler: VisceraEyes votes

For Mac (#1522) it wasn't just lurking. It that you haven't given any original content since dawn of day 2. And even then it was minimal.

I'am sorry goodmorning (#1525) but I must have missed you concerns.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < GuyInFreezer < Eye urn < Mac < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Post Post #1528 (isolation #28) » Tue Apr 30, 2013 2:59 am

Sorry but still can't see them. You first defended your vote what is ok. And the point of the sarcasm is lost to me.

Z7-852 · Post Post #1530 (isolation #29) » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:10 am

But I haven't claimed that you are not scumhunting. VisceraEyes accused me of not scumhunting and I stated that I have been doing it but focusing on other players than Eye Urn.

Z7-852 · Post Post #1553 (isolation #30) » Wed May 01, 2013 9:56 pm

At last someone else sees (#1543) how randomly

VisceraEyes

votes. Again he creates a new bandwagon (#1536) without giving a case. I know that he tried to make "case" against Mac in D1 but lot have happened since then. It's either that ViscereEyes is ignoring latest game, doesn't want to make a new case or don't have one. All three are signs of bad game that hurts town. He even admits (#1545) that he doesn't need any reasons behind his votes. It's not scummy to be unsure about your reads (#1549) but it is scummy to start randomly voting people without any bases.

goodmorning

must have understanded (#1532) my posts wrong. I just pointed that your post have been short and uninformative. Also there were moments when you really didn't post anything useful for ether side. This doesn't mean that you haven't been scumhunting just that your scumhunting have been weak. Lately her game have improved a little but it's still not as active as you would expect from IC.

I really don't see difference (#1533) of asking to clarify your reads or asking to give your reads. Both mean that you ask information from me and not giving anything yourself. But at least now

Mac

gives his reads (#1533) even if I don't agree with them.

GuyInFreeze

have been inactive quite sometime. Unlike Mac (#1533) I don't certainly see this as scummy but at least it's suspicious. He have been posting yesterday but not on this game.

It seems that I should really start pushing more against VisceraEyes. goodmorning haven't been so scummy lately but VisceraEyes is consistent with the play style that I find scummy.
VOTE: VisceraEyes

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < GuyInFreezer < Eye urn < Mac < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Post Post #1560 (isolation #31) » Thu May 02, 2013 7:07 pm

I will shortly answer concerns that goodmorning bought up (#1557) about my reads through out the game.

Since early game I haven't had good read on Eye Urn, Deras, Mac or Revenus (GuyInFreeze). These players are still on null/leaning town zone. They have been so passive that I really haven't had any information on what bases I should suspect them more. Just flaking out isn't as suspicious as just posting uninformative stuff and lurking while still following the thread. This is why I had my own thoughts on Eye Urn and Mac. You could say that I have one strong town read (fferyllt), on strong scum read (VisceraEyes) and one semi-strong scum read (goodmorning). Other players are still little gray zone due their inactivity. As stated earlier in the thread by fferyllt, Scumometer (tm) just ranks players but don't rely how strong the reads are.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < GuyInFreezer < Eye urn < Mac < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Sat May 04, 2013 12:03 am

Seems so.
In the mean time could you goodmorning write open the whole case against me. With fast ISO-hunt I didn't find much during this day and only something against fropome (previous holder of the slot) at the end of the day 1. There were some single comments but not a good summary. You really should have a strong case considering how strongly you feel about my scumminess.

Z7-852 · Post Post #1598 (isolation #33) » Sat May 04, 2013 9:03 pm

First calling me barcode (#1574) is ok. It's quite common in other forums where I use the same avatar and nick. I actually prefer is over just Z. But I have to say that Ineffective is being very ineffective right now. I recommend that you read the whole thread as good as you can and then make your votes and reads. I will say same thing to you that I did for VisceraEyes when he first replaced in. Take your time reading and then give summary on everyone not just those that you feel to be scummy.

I don't know what to think about Ineffectives townclaim (#1571). Most likely nothing. Some of his reads have been less informative (#1588). I don't see what so obvious about that. Also it's weird that he cleared me partly because fferyllt thinks I'am town and fferyllt is town just because. Like I said earlier you could break your reads more. Take your time. This has been a long game so don't just jump in and do random stuff.

It's good that fferyllt have also seen (#1584) the VisceraEyes budding. But I have to remind everyone that VisceraEyes have not only buddied fferyllt but everyone that he wasn't currently trying to lynch. I still find this scummy despite how obvious it is.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < GuyInFreezer < Ineffective < Mac < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Sat May 04, 2013 10:17 pm

I'am not saying (#1600) that Ineffective actions are completely random. I'am saying that because you haven't read the whole thing and haven't made up your mind about players yet you are doing votes and assumptions that you withdraw in the next post. You have logic behind your post but the logic is incomplete due the lack of information. That's reason why you have to take your time and read the whole thing before posting anything.

I also disagree that second guessing yourself (#1600) is a bad strategy. Time to time you have to look at yourself from third perspective and see if you have done any mistakes. If you assume you are following reasonable line of logic there should be any errors but you still must do your reads again just to make sure.

Z7-852 · Post Post #1703 (isolation #35) » Mon May 06, 2013 1:10 am

Okey this have been interesting day when I was away. Can't say that I like this kind of chatty form of play but it's just me. Can't mine much information out of it but I will try my best.

I agree with fferyllt (#1624) that

GuyInFreeze

is most likely a townie. Still little null about him but he haven't done anything that makes me think he's a scum. He have been too quiet though after the Mac wagon broke (again).

Don't know what to think about how

Mac

wagon turned out. fferyllt was willing to hammervote him (#1623). This isn't really nothing interesting because fferyllt have noted that she finds Mac suspicious. Other thing was a response vote against GuyInFreeze (#1625) after he put Mac on L-1. I wouldn't read too much about this because there really wasn't any case because vote wasn't opportunism like Mac pointed out (#1631). Scum wouldn't gain anything about this and neither would a townie. But I would still like to say this response looked little more like a townie panic than a scum move.

Love how careful

Inneffective

was when he returned to game (#1634). To me this looks a like a clear town move to prevent a miss. On the other hand didn't like the discussion about claims (#1637). Due to the format there is 50% that any claim is false (that claimed role doesn't exist in the game) and this gives a relatively good chance for scum to protect oneself. Inneffective have been quite active and town like during yesterday in other ways. Making clear recaps (#1654) (#1657) from the past and building relatively solid cases. He is now leaning toward more town to me than GuyInFreeze. Any suspicions against EyeUrn have mostly been uplifted (those were mostly due lurking).

Once again I have to disagree with

goodmorning

about theory (#1641). fferyllt pointed out a clear example (#1639) where roleclaims are good thing and if rolecop won't release such information rolefishing is useful for the town. Inneffective pointed out (#1654) that goodmorning also played hypocritically when attacking Inneffective for rolefishing and not GuyInFreeze earlier. Noted that situation (#1295) was different but still. There were also couple good cases (#1656) against goodmorning. But once have to give credit where credit is due. goodmornings defence (#1699) was good. But so was Ineffectives responce (#1700). I have founded goodmorning to be scummy almost the whole game and I still have to stand behind that.

VisceraEyes

comes again with budding of a sort (#1679). Still saying this looks little suspicious but everyone else seems to think he's a townie. But this pushing (#1688) that he is making against goodmorning (#1692) is making me re-think my stand on VisceraEyes/goodmorning scum team. If goodmorning is flipped town it's clear to me that VisceraEyes is scum but can't trush on him completely even if goodmorning is a scum. VisceraEyes likes to vote for anyone but this is first time he have held vote on goodmorning this long.

I intend to hammer goodmorning

if nothing drastic will happen. I would also like to note that any claims have 50% to be completely false. Will do this before I get to sleep (in 7-8 h)

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Ineffective < GuyInFreezer < Mac < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Post Post #1706 (isolation #36) » Mon May 06, 2013 2:40 am

I agree with GuyInFreeze (#1705) about that Mac is lurking far to much. This just makes him look suspicious.
What comes to my hammer intend and claim thing (#1704), I won't blindly trust any claim that goodmorning even if no other player with similar role reveals themselves.

Z7-852 · Post Post #1734 (isolation #37) » Mon May 06, 2013 6:23 am

I kinda don't want to believe

goodmorning

but her claim (#1708) was genuine. She tends to get little fired up like that time to time. Something I don't like but seems consistent enough for me to trust that post. But on the other hand then she makes posts like this (#1719). Not going to lynch for now but could hammer her later.

I'am going to wait till tomorrow to hear more about Mac if he keeps his promise (#1718). In the mean time I will dig ISO on couple of other players that I have been slightly ignoring lately just to double check that my reads are right.

Z7-852 · Tue May 07, 2013 10:26 pm

I'am sorry I was away LA/V last day without saying. Day was just crazy. I had work, studies and playing mafia on other forum. Won't write my normal summary because there is 14 pages to read. Just writing down few ideas that comes to mind and trying to keep it short. It's just too much for me to try to summarize 14 pages in my normal style.

Even if there is only 50% chance of goodmornings claim to be true (#1768), I for now believe goodmorning. Seemed honest claim back there. fferyllts logic on issue (#1783) was good but it rest on the assumption that I'am a scum that don't actually have nothing to do with goodmornings claim.

I agree with Ineffective (#1837) that Mac was budding goodmorning little. Don't know if he was just trying to be objective but after that discussion I have to more strongly agree with Inneffectives case against goodmorning. Mac and goodmorning just doesn't seem a viable scumpartners considerating how goodmorning have been attacking Mac during D1.

VisceraEyes willingness to go to massclaim mode is suspicious as hell to me. Claiming a doctor (#1994) is like painting a big target sign for all the scums to see. As a doctor I would never do this unless I was at L-1. When goodmorning stated that he trusted (#2027) VisceraEyes claim that felt odd to me. But there is no way that both scums would claim a power role. I just find this whole ordeal unsettling. But since you wanted this I will say I'am a vanilla townie. For me this thing looked like VisceraEyes plot to flush out other power role if any.

This is all that I got for quick read. I will try to be more active in the future and always tell if there is sudden workload on me.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Ineffective < GuyInFreezer < Mac < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Tue May 07, 2013 11:49 pm

Consider this case:

VisceraEyes and other player A are scumbuddies. goodmorning is not A.
goodmorning claims PR that scums know to be true
VisceraEyes gambits and claims an other power role the Doctor
Unless we lynch a scum today this forces goodmorning to jail VisceraEyes or creates this setting
This doesn't prevent player A from killing goodmorning during night.
Next day begins and everyone thinks VisceraEyes is a jailed doctor and goodmorning is dead.

I know the logic is a stretch but considering that there are 50% chance that claiming a power role is false claim this is a gambit that I would be willing to take as a scum when we don't have a clear scum pair founded. I have to think settings like this because I find to benefit to claim a doctor role unless there have been no-kill during night. It's just too big of a risk.

And after goodmornings claim I said I kind of believed her claim but were still willing to lynch her. This means that I wasn't and aren't certain that the claim is legit.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2084 (isolation #40) » Wed May 08, 2013 1:54 am

I don't doubt that both of the claims are false. That's just too unlikely. I agree with Mac (#2082) that any PR after VisceraEyes would know that there is a liar but I think that might be risk that scum is willing to take. And this is a huge gambit from player that is under no pressure. I just don't see what VisceraEyes and the town had to gain in order to reveal a Doctor without any unique information. Yes we know one "confirmed town" but scum knows both of the power roles what helps them. Can VisceraEyes or somebody else explain logic why we would want to reveal a doctor?

I understand to claim cop. Then we would have two "confirmed town" and goodmorning, but doctor is just so useless role to claim. It only helps scums when we know who is the doctor. If VisceraEyes did the gambit I said there is a possibility that the real doctor don't want to come forward because then scum would know them. Because VisceraEyes outed first any other power role are hesitant to reveal themself because that would but them under heavy suspicion.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2086 (isolation #41) » Wed May 08, 2013 2:19 am

In current situation I would agree. But can somebody now explain why VisceraEyes claimed?

Z7-852 · Post Post #2088 (isolation #42) » Wed May 08, 2013 3:03 am

That (#2087) doesn't answer my question.

VisceraEyes first comes up with the idea (#1980) of mass claims because he started to become paranoid about how easily people were accepting goodmornings claim. He wanted more data but there really wasn't much that VisceraEyes could get if he is a doctor. Only thing that this could yield is if third person would claim power role and we would have limited suspects but that wasn't the case. And chance for this was relatively low in my opinion. The logic (#1983) was that if scum would claim later in the game they would be lynched. This might be true but on the other hand is it worth of outing a doctor. We just gave all the hidden information to scums on silver plate.

Just one curios fact is that claims (#1994) that VisceraEyes did was written on green when original private message should be (#2) written on cyan. Just a small detail but still.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2089 (isolation #43) » Wed May 08, 2013 3:05 am

In this situation player with power role should have forced a scum to fake-claim by pushing them to L-1 or similar situation. Or at least claim last yourself. Because since two players have claimed a power role scum would never claim one for themself.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2098 (isolation #44) » Wed May 08, 2013 6:23 am

GuyInFreeze is making too big of a assumption (#2091) for me to just bite down. Yes we can say that the scums are between VT claims but only if we assume that both claims are true. That is a big if. We have no way of verifying these claims without lynching the players and that's not the best idea. There is large probability that one of them is a real power role (just because there were no other claims) but about 15% chance that both claims are true. And again there was no way to verify that this was a power roles idea. There is just too many variables for this to be worth of revealing a doctor.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2102 (isolation #45) » Wed May 08, 2013 7:54 am

I'am just paranoid about how this whole mass claim turned out. And because it was made by the player that I suspect most that makes me even more uneasy. And about the 15%. That's the probability that there are jail keeper and doctor in the game. Probability for VisceraEyes claim to be true given goodmornings claim is true is mathematically even smaller. I'am sorry about all this math but I have been doing economical scenario analysis for the past few days and I see probability factors everywhere.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2105 (isolation #46) » Wed May 08, 2013 8:38 am

I'dont think both of them are scum, but haven't made my mind who to trust or should I trust both.

Z7-852 · Wed May 08, 2013 10:34 pm

I like this pairing thing. It gives a idea how other people see the game currently. I even compiled data to spread sheet so its easier to see with one clench. I really liked fferyllt (#2112) analysis of possible GuyInFreeze and Mac pair. Also her case (#2133) on me and mac was good reading. Inneffetive post (#2136) was less useful for me. I really like reading this kind of cases because it helps to see other peoples views and they can help to clear ones mind about their own reads.

Goodmornings reads (#2121) were fun to read. First of all she had GuyInFreeze and Mac pair. If this wasn't the case almost any other pair is possible (where she isn't in). This either means that she doesn't have reads on other pairs or first one is a strong read.

This is also first time that VisceraEyes (in my opinion) have opened up (#2141) his reads in good cases. But in this post the whole Ineffective/goodmorning case don't really work for me.

Personally I don't see goodmorning/VisceraEyes team to possible like I saw before. Also I don't think Mac is partnering with ether one. But GuyInFreeze and Mac pair (someones that have been howering in my null zone the whole game) seems to be quite popular. Especially Mac (that I have been leaning to null/scum lately) is a prime target. If he flips scum, it would clear lot of suspicions off goodmorning and VisceraEyes in my mind.

VOTE: Mac
I think this puts him to L-1.

And my math isn't wrong like inneffective liked to point out (#2117). You have to consider what is probability of VisceraEyes being a Doctor if goodmorning is a jail keeper. Is simple case of Bayesian probability.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2171 (isolation #48) » Fri May 10, 2013 3:53 am

I think Ineffective jumped (#2151) to hammer intend little fast but because he didn't act on it this isn't really as suspicious. Just noteworthy in this point of game.

Macs logic (#2155) putting me and goodmorning to same team is weak. I was the player that intended to hammer her and forced the claim. No one would do this to their scumbuddies. Also whole second day I have slowly pushing Mac down to scumpile, unlike he pointed out (#2157). Again his arguments fail him. If Mac flips town (#2163), I'am forced to go back to goodmorning and VisceraEyes. But because everyone else seems to (at least to some degree) believe the claims I have to consider possibility that I'am wrong about them. After them Mac is/was my third choice.

Not much have happened while we are waiting for GuyInFreezer. Seems like we are doing lot of waiting in this game.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Ineffective < GuyInFreezer < Mac < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Post Post #2181 (isolation #49) » Sat May 11, 2013 5:03 pm

Well this game isn't really going anywhere. I will just post this in order to avoid prob.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2185 (isolation #50) » Sat May 11, 2013 7:40 pm

GuyInFreezer was on the Mac wagon. Just noted this. Would be weird if GiF and Mac were partners and GiF would sack Mac.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2188 (isolation #51) » Sat May 11, 2013 9:30 pm

But there have been intent to hammer Mac and GiF haven't still drew his vote away. Might be because his gone MIA.

Z7-852 · Sat May 11, 2013 10:39 pm

There is no way that anyone would claim a power role in this point of the game. That just bad reason to declare someone a town.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2354 (isolation #53) » Fri May 17, 2013 1:09 am

Have been super busy this week. Will re-read last day and this day once I get to my home PC.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2358 (isolation #54) » Sat May 18, 2013 4:44 am

Sorry about my passivity. I had two major papers to return before summer break and this have taken all my free time. I hate to be the guy to drag game on but as you know even in best scenario I don't write more than 2 posts a day.

No-Kill during the night was interesting. There are at least 4 reasons I can think for this. 1. Doctor chose correctly, 2. Jailer jailed the target, 3. Jailer jailed a scum or 4. Scum decided to go for no-kill. Fourth option really don't look possible for me so I have to focus on three first. There is no way that scum would withhold their shot when there are two power roles in the open and they are last man standing. Inneffectives logic (#2236) on this seems little far fetched.

VisceraEyes

chose

fferyllt

(#2218). The whole game I have leaning toward fferyllt being a town. And as a active town she would make a prime target for scums. Here is unfortunate possibility for VisceraEyes to be a scum and his claim to false. I was puzzling with this during last dusk. Also his rationalization (#2220) for the protection wasn't really good. I have been saying that VisceraEyes have been budding fferyllt this whole game and this still sound little like that.

Second possibility is interesting. I stated that GuyInFreeze and Mac are unlike partners so if Mac is town who would like to hurt them. Mac have been under heavy suspicion by almost all the players so killing him during night would mean that one of the prime blame goats would be out. For this reason this seems unlikely possibility for me.

Mac

denied (#2216) the option 3. Any scum would do this so it really doesn't tell me anything. But Mac as I pointed out during last day Mac and GuyInFreeze are extremely unlikely partners just by looking at their voting patterns. Therefor I can't see this as a high possibility. There have been good individual cases against Mac but once GuyInFreeze was reveled as as scum killed by Mac. It just is too far fetch for me to see these to as partners considering they have been on each others throats lately.

I was really concerned about revealed Doctor last day and I still don't understand why VisceraEyes would claim something like that. Once both claimed power roles survived the night this makes me even more concerned. goodmorning pointed out (#2227) that power roles could just be to intimating to kill. At this point when other scum is revealed and "both power roles claimed" I just can't swallow possibility. Inneffective also pointed out (#2263) that VisceraEyes avoided lynching GuyInFreeze when there was a decent case against them. VisceraEyes have also never voted against GuyInFreeze in whole game. Interesting considering that he have voted against everyone else but fferyllt and GuyInFreeze.

Inneffectives math (#2245) of today lynch is correct. This makes me want to lean little toward to no-lynch. But because I can't completely trust the claims that have been made the logic behind the math falls apart. For this reason we really should lynch someone.

VOTE: VisceraEyes just because he gave best laugh (#2331) of the day.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Ineffective < GuyInFreezer < Mac < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Post Post #2362 (isolation #55) » Sat May 18, 2013 9:43 am

Well the whole saying "keep" felt little odd to me. Especially since you pointed out that she really haven't been saying that so much. Still her claim was timed better than VisceraEyes claim and on that bases alone I found it more credible.

Z7-852 · Sat May 18, 2013 10:30 pm

My last post wasn't really well structured. I will try to clarify my thoughts little better now. I should really read my posts through before submitting them. It's not always easy to make my ideas clear in foreign language.

Busing argument (#2363) against Mac/GuyInFreezer team team doesn't work for me. Mac was on the wagon where GuyInFreezer self-hammered. Why would scum self-hammer if their partner is already on the wagon? Normally by self-hammering scum tries to deny further discussion and prevent people to find their partner out. Mac by himself would make a good scum candidate but latest flip just makes it look weird that mac and GuyInFreezer would be working together.

I don't buy mafia no-kill if both power roles are real. Then it would be too much a uphill battle for scum to win without killing during night. But if one of the claims is false then it would make sense for one of the "false-claimers" to do a no-kill to draw attention toward someone else. Inneffective (#2374) had the same idea than I was trying to say. If VisceraEyes or goodmorning is scum then they have incentive to do a no-kill, but no other player would do it.

Normally I would agree with Ineffective (#2370) that voluntary claim is less scummy than one made under pressure, but claiming to be a doctor when it doesn't give any real information. There haven't been a no-kill before so doctor cannot verify another player.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Ineffective < Mac < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Post Post #2422 (isolation #57) » Wed May 22, 2013 5:09 am

I have now been puzzling between VisceraEyes and goodmorning. When mass-claims came it just made me more suspicious of these two. Goodmornings claim came as a natural timing and it sounded sincere but parts of it like "keep"-claim sounded fabricated. VisceraEyes claim was also weird because I don't understand why Doctor would voluntary reveal oneself unless there have been a no-kill.

fferyllt bought out facts (#2384) that make the

goodmorning

s claim even more interesting. Inneffective pointed out that (#2391) jailing Mac would be a good explanation for no-night-kill and I want to add that goodmorning have been pushing Mac quite consistently. But VisceraEyes is right (#2406) that pressure have been lessen after the night unlike it should have been.
One thing that speaks for goodmorning is that she is right (#2413) that killing a doctor is optimal move for any scum in the game. It's really interesting that scum would even consider no-night-kill.

VisceraEyes

went again (#2393) to his style of "anyone-can-go" approach. This have slowly chanced since he first joined the game. At first he wasn't willing to do anything else but focus on one player at a time. When those wagons failed he always created new ones without cases to back them up. This is why I have been leaning on scum on him the whole game long.

Mac just doesn't seem viable lynch and fferyllt and Ineffective have been strong town reads almost the whole game. Reasons why I see Mac as a town are written in my earlier posts.

To me no-night kill makes sense only if one of power role claims is false. This why I would really want to lynch ether VisceraEyes or goodmorning. If goodmorning is town then VisceraEyes seems most likely scum for me and vise versa.

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Ineffective < Mac < goodmorning < VisceraEyes

Z7-852 · Post Post #2424 (isolation #58) » Wed May 22, 2013 7:29 am

Claiming Doc is way sketchy but doc is better role to gather information than jail keeper. The whole claiming Doc was so weird that that is the only reason why I'am currently voting VisceraEyes but that doesn't mean I wouldn't be willing to lynch goodmorning either.

Z7-852 · Sun May 26, 2013 10:13 pm

Forgot to put V/LA for the weekend. Read the thread with phone few times though.

I was just noticing that game goes around and around with same arguments with same people. I will put goodmorning to L-1 just because I still find her and VisceraEyes to be most suspicious. My arguments on the issue haven't really chanced.

VOTE: goodmorning

Z7-852 · Mon May 27, 2013 11:18 pm

goodmornings post (#2523) was so transparent. Anyone following the game at all would know that we have one confirmed scum already. Feels like goodmorning is really on the edge right now.

Case against

goodmorning

(delivered when asked (#2525)). Parts of her claim seem off. Most importantly the "keep" track.
Secondly only power role claim have any intentive to go for no-night-kill at this point of the game. So most of my focus have been on VisceraEyes or Goodmorning.
When it came to last night claiming to jail Mac is good explanation for no-night-kill especially when it would draw fire toward Mac. But when goodmorning didn't attack Mac with everything at the morning it became extremely odd. If there is no-night-kill jailkeeper would always attack toward player that was jailed.
Then to the older stuff. Your reads (#2121) at end of day 2 were interesting. You didn't put anyone else than Mac for being GuyInFreezers partner. Then when GiF was flipped scum you didn't attack Mac next day like I said earlier. You were also one of the player that weren't voting for GiF when he got lynched. Only reason for scum to self-hammer is to prevent his partner to be forced to vote for them and therefor prevent any further information.
Then there is lot of stuff you have been doing all game long that have kept you at the bottom of my scumometer (tm).

Scumometer (tm)
fferyllt < Ineffective < Mac < VisceraEyes < goodmorning

Z7-852 · Post Post #2556 (isolation #61) » Tue May 28, 2013 1:51 am

I didn't notice the last page (103) when I wrote my post so I didn't know he was hammered. But that's done.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2568 (isolation #62) » Sat Jun 01, 2013 9:27 pm

Damn my reads have been off the whole game. I have no idea who could be other scum right now. Getting paranoid about fferyllt because could be that he have been cowering behind town mark all game long.

Z7-852 · Sat Jun 01, 2013 11:41 pm

Before we end this game in no-lynch, I would really like to know what are everyone reads on so far because I'am so confused. Like if X dies then Y is scum kind of way.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2571 (isolation #64) » Sun Jun 02, 2013 5:04 am

I understand that giving information to scum right now is not the best idea. But on the other hand I'am completely stunned how this game has gone.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2586 (isolation #65) » Sat Jun 08, 2013 7:38 am

I will do my best but no is also the problem that I can only connect with my phone for next week (visiting my parents). But I will try my best.
I have to say I was so wrong that person can be during the end of game. First the GuyInFreezers self-hammer didn't make any sense and confused me thinking that someone not voting for him has to be scum. Secondly the claims were oddly timed and not believable considering the selfhammer. I really should re-read the whole thread to see again what I think about Inneffective and Mac and that might be hard with 100 kb/s web speed.
GO 2G-network.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2589 (isolation #66) » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:54 am

Ok. I spent couple hours mapping all the votes from vote counts with pen and paper. Reading from small phone screen isn't that easy. I counted that Mac have voted GuyInFreezer twice and Inneffective have voted him once. This really didn't say much but GuyInFreezer have voted Mac six times and Inneffective zero times. Not much but at least something quantifiable evidence. I know that count isn't accurate because I used only moderators vote counts and not the real votes but still it's at least something.

One thing that I build my thought about fake PR claims was the selfhammering from GuyInFreezer. Only good reason for selfhammer is to deny information by not forcing their scum partners to vote them. Only players that hadn't vote for him were both PR claims. Also the timing of VisceraEyes claim was odd. I still don't understand why would doctor claim himself in situation like that.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2590 (isolation #67) » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:08 pm

I'am really troubled how little activity there is right now. This whole game have been interestingly random so my reads have been off all day long. I would really want to hear little from everyone so we can get the day starting. Even if I'am V/LA I can still read current posts on my phone and write short answers.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2592 (isolation #68) » Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:47 pm

I have to agree that the selfhammer fucked my reads completely. Currently I'am trying to reread the thread or at least ISO you two so I can make new reads. Currently I'am little leaning toward Inneffective due the vote pattern. But you were jailed when there was no-night kill and that puts you into bad light.

Z7-852 · Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:59 pm

I ISOed Mac and noticed that he have been more negative against GuyInFreezer than supportive. Inneffective have on the other hand kept GuyInFreezer mostly in townie pile. These scum interactions are hard to do due passivity of GuyInFreezer.

Z7-852 · Mon Jun 10, 2013 12:16 am

Now I really don't follow your logic?
There was a blocked kill during night three. So that means it's ether you or that scum attacked fferyllt. We really can't see how this is helping us right now. My spreadsheet about pairings is on my tabletop back in jvk so I really can't say much about them. Goodmornings decision to pair GuyInFreezer only with you just makes you look worse.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2598 (isolation #71) » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:46 am

Fact that you were jailed makes you look scummy and the fact that you were only partner candidate for GuyInFreezer according to goodmorning.

Third night no-kill makes no sense unless you were one of fake powerclaims. Fake power claim have more power to drive and steer discussion. Also scum in situation where there is both jailkeeper and doc alive would not go for no-kill because the climb to victory is already hard enough.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2601 (isolation #72) » Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:15 am

I said those two things make you look like scum. They don't make you scum. There is a difference.
I also didn't 100% trust goodmornings claims of being a jailkeeper so that was a reason why I voted against him. Currently I have to trust everything he said before hand, but this doesn't mean his reads are right.

It's impossible to draw any solid conclusions about third night. If I were scum I wouldn't go for no-night-kill during third night just in hope of shading goodmorning or you Mac. Seems little far fetched theory. Targeting fferyllt just seems more practical. Third night just make you little scummy looking. I'am still leaning toward inneffective though.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2602 (isolation #73) » Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:19 am

If inneffective have flaked, I would prefer to lynch him. Anyone that replaces him can't really give much information or at least I couldn't trust him much because I can't reflect their style to previous posts.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2608 (isolation #74) » Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:30 am

During fourth day I stated that if there were no-night kill the PR were most likely candidates but if there were night kill then it could be anyone. But even then I was really wondering why goodmorning wasn't pushing you as much as she should have had. When there is no night kill and you have jailed someone that should really effect more on your reads than it did for goodmorning. This was one of the things that lead me to goodmorning lynch. But now after that I really had to reread the thread and come up with new reads.

After ISO read and votecounting I have to say Inneffective is more suspicious from you two. I would really like to see some one to be replaced in game that is 105 pages long and is in lylo.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2610 (isolation #75) » Tue Jun 11, 2013 2:33 pm

Inneffective last visited the site on Monday so he haven't flaked the site but he haven't posted anything in this thread or any other thread of that matter. I'am currently leaning on lynching him and getting this game over with but on the other hand I really don't want to kill anyone without first hearing them out.
We could spam this thread with more thoughts about game for next 10 or so pages just to make it longer.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2612 (isolation #76) » Tue Jun 11, 2013 4:02 pm

I have stated legitimate reasons for wanting lynch you earlier today. They come from ISO reading you and Mac and looking your interactions with GuyInFreezer. Also votecounts make Inneffective look more scummy than Mac. And in my last post I clearly said I don't feel like lynching someone without hearing them out first. So Inneffectives post was a huge misrep on those parts.

Z7-852 · Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:23 pm

It have been 7 hours and Ineffective still haven't given his thoughts on how to prosede or answered my findings. I can be more active and I'am using my phone.

Z7-852 · Tue Jun 11, 2013 10:34 pm

Well that's uncharastistly aggressive responce. You can't argue statistics about voting patterns but you can disagree on conclusions that I drew from them. Making clear cases on interaction is hard with phone screen when you really can't use quote or link functions to their full extend. But ether of you can ISO each other and find the same things.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2621 (isolation #79) » Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:56 am

Inneffective have used f-word only four time in this game. Haven't played with him before and don't really base lot on meta. Generally I have had quite calm view from Inneffective and he really haven't often lost his cool. But that's really not a only reason why I'am currently leaning toward him as a scum.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2622 (isolation #80) » Thu Jun 13, 2013 5:35 pm

Right now I would like to hear both of your ideas who is more likely scum candidate and why. I made my "case" against Ineffective and I will stand behind it now.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2623 (isolation #81) » Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:50 am

I would really appreciate if you guys could get to this game and give your thoughts on it. We have already dragged this long enough. I'am leaning no voting Inneffective right now. If he doesn't give his thoughts soon I will vote for him and risk the possibility of a hammer.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2632 (isolation #82) » Sat Jun 15, 2013 6:31 am

At least there have been some interaction here. I know this is most important time in the game and we cannot rush our decision but I get annoyed when there are days where there are no new posts. And I would call my case against Ineffectiva a case (without quote marks) because it's not as well structured as I am used to make cases. Not because it's a bad case IMO. Normally when I make cases I quote and point to evidence. That makes a case believable and variable for other players. Because I couldn't do this on phone I called it a "case" same way you call home made sandwich "a subway".

What comes to Ineffectives use of f-word, it was unusual of him. If say example goodmorning did the same I wouldn't make as big deal of it. I just had more composed view of Inneffective. It just jumped to my radar when player who have been passive for several days without reason acts differently than usually.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2634 (isolation #83) » Sat Jun 15, 2013 9:32 pm

Again. It's not the use of f-word but the attitude chance that I felt. I just used the f-word as an example how you have been calmer before. This isn't really any hard evidence of alignment but sudden chance in behavior when under pressure just makes me feel like there is something you are hiding.

Z7-852 · Sat Jun 15, 2013 10:15 pm

I just feel like we are focusing now too much on the little details (in this case the use of f-word by Inneffective or my quote marks around word case). We should really look for the whole game and interactions with different players, voting patterns and expressions used in this jungle of 100+ pages long. I started that noticing the voting pattern and general interaction between you two and GuyInFreezer (and his predecessors). With this really slim overlook it seemed that Inneffective is more suspicious of you two.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2637 (isolation #85) » Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:40 am

Passivity and calmness aren't same thing. Cursing and acting aggressively isn't alignment indicator and here I completely agree with Mac. I just noted that using f-word was uncharacteristic from Inneffective. Meaning he acted differently than I would have expected. Again not a alignment indicator but just a little thing I noticed. We really should focus more on the game as whole rather than picking up this small things.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2643 (isolation #86) » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:22 pm

I feel like we are focusing on tiny detail now and are not willing to look at the big picture. It seems like scum wants us to talk about one thing I said that I never even have claimed to be a alignment indicator. I just said that I was expecting different kind of response from Inneffective and now we haven't talked about anything else. Scum is using this discussion about f-word as a red herring and diverting our focus away from the big picture (that is the 100 page long game).

Z7-852 · Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:48 pm

I just felt like you were uncharacteristically aggressive and that you haven't used the f-word often in this game. That's all. There wasn't any deeper insight here.
And I have ISOed both of you and given my thoughts on your voting and interaction patterns. Then I have waited for you to give your thoughts on game so far.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2648 (isolation #88) » Wed Jun 19, 2013 4:21 am

I just don't see no-kill to be viable option to anyone else than false claiming scum. And since I was wrong about there being one only logical solution is that scum tried to kill during night.
Now that I think about it fferyllt seemed to be logical kill during night 4 and I didn't think more of it but what if scum tried to kill fferyllt during night 3 also. That would mean that Mac cannot be scum.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2650 (isolation #89) » Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:33 pm

I understand your logic Mac but it just seems little far fetched for me. Scum was against two kill-blocking PR. Losing even one night kill would make game so much harder to them even if they manage to avoid lynch.

Z7-852 · Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:07 pm

It is odd that Inneffective isn't really pushing toward you (or anyone), but on the other hand I thought goodmorning was a scum when she didn't push on you during D4.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2653 (isolation #91) » Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:06 pm

It's that time of a year here in Finland. Midsummer night. It's kind of a big holiday here so I will be V/LA till Sunday or Monday depending on my hangover. In the mean while I would really like both of you to be more active and really try to summarize the whole game so we might have better reasons for the lynch. Currently it seems like Mac is doing much better job in this than Inneffective.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2654 (isolation #92) » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:53 pm

@Mod

Can you prob everyone?

Z7-852 · Post Post #2656 (isolation #93) » Mon Jun 24, 2013 1:25 am

Seems like Ineffective have bailed the site. Like I stated earlier I don't want to play with a new replacement but I would like to see someones face when they get to be replaced in this thread in this state.

Z7-852 · Mon Jun 24, 2013 10:40 pm

Did Ineffective just say his waiting for one of us to vote for each other so he can increase his odds? This must be most terrible scumslip ever. Playing the odd game is wrong move for town to do right now. 50/50 odds are bad and we should really use better reasoning to justify our votes. I agree that Mac have been watching from sidelines but you have been worse.

Z7-852 · Post Post #2690 (isolation #95) » Wed Jun 26, 2013 4:01 am

Ok let's not drag this any further.
VOTE: Ineffective