Touhou: Mafia in the Land of Fantasy (Game Over)

[zMuffinMan]

there's probably 2-3 scum on the patchouli lynch

[zMuffinMan]

Vote: pieguy

[zMuffinMan]

pieguy scum, lush life town, gaiden town

[zMuffinMan]

muffinman, dramallama, that pie thing and kiserooni are people of interest

i'm flattered, but i'm not all that interesting

[zMuffinMan]

Town = Gaiden, morph, Lush hydra, maybe muffin too

Not Town = pie, Tsukasa, Rem, maybe dram

take morph out of town reads, tsukasa out of not town reads and swap your name for mine, and this is basically where i'm at atm

[zMuffinMan]

We have at present 5-6 townreads we're willing to take to the bank

how do you have 5-6 town reads that you're actually confident about so far?

i have like 4 and i'm not even all that confident about them

[zMuffinMan]

Tell me about morph?

i dunno. i'm not seeing anything morph is doing as particularly town - everything they've done looks easily fake-able and nothing's come across as alignment indicative so far

i'm null on them and don't really get the town read

[zMuffinMan]

I thought you were breaking out into hives due to how horrifically our Big Six worked out in the Marketplace game

that is one reason i don't like the fact you supposedly have 5-6 town reads you're confident about

i'm also unsure how the fuck you got those 5-6 town reads you agree on based on content so far

i'm waiting for you guys to stop playing this coy not-revealing-any-reads game

[zMuffinMan]

are you getting weird on them?

nah, not really weird. just cautious

[zMuffinMan]

confuses you how?

[zMuffinMan]

i know roughly where your reads stand. i don't know how you got those reads

[zMuffinMan]

you are being reticent certainly nothing like the player I got into a pissing match with in xeno

i don't like the way this game has started

[zMuffinMan]

talk to me muffin

normally at this stage i'd expect to have a fair few reads i'm somewhat confident about and it's not happening in this game

[zMuffinMan]

its okay dexter. just plz make sure hit scum okay? otherwise I won't be able to protect you!

i'll try but no promises

[zMuffinMan]

what i had in my head while reading the last page

[zMuffinMan]

I'm cool with talking townreads earlier than she was.

T {the inno child; kaze; gaiden; borkmolliejiffy}
LT {tsukasa}

what a boring list

why were you guys being so reserved about this?

[zMuffinMan]

was there a 6th person you were thinking about, or what was the 5-6 about?

[zMuffinMan]

what's your "people of interest" list look like?

[zMuffinMan]

no comments on or questions about anything i've written so far

apparently not even interested in why i think you're scum

why?

[zMuffinMan]

if a muffin was a muffin of many vig shots, a muffin would shoot a man this night

[zMuffinMan]

I can't read muffin usually so he's town!

interesting. i thought you'd be a lot more wary about putting me anywhere near your town reads, not the first person you call town

Spoiler: Why Bubba is ObvScum

So can we please lynch this thing now?

i'm reading pretty much all the stuff there as not alignment indicative. only thing that really bothers me about bubba is the complete lack of wanting to find scum

i dunno, i'm generally shit at reading players like bubba

thoughts on pieguy?

In the bold, a boy (cabd) is admonishing his teammates to read stuff before posting and giving their scum selves over their own laziness.

i don't see it. the second bolded part was obviously referring to people posting at the time who were oblivious to the IC announcement. the first bolded part is meh

Rem's replacement probably proves her town.

Rem is either legit invoking a trust tell (and yes, this is a trust tell), or she's using a false tell to push her towniness. Hard to say which

i don't like the way you're waffling on this so much, and now calling the rem-slot town while still voting them

jaqen's point is pretty good

Spoiler:

[zMuffinMan]

o wait, i get it now

that actually makes sense

[zMuffinMan]

yeah, yeah, i put two and two together after kagami's 580

i'm reading back over it now. i'm getting icky feelings about morph trying to call bubba's post a townslip

[zMuffinMan]

Unvote
Vote: Morph

[zMuffinMan]

I don't see how you can argue that "you ought to be ashamed of yourselves" is them admonishing their scumbuddies

i'm thinking about it a different way

who ought to be ashamed of themselves?

if he's referring to town here, why should they be ashamed of something he supposedly thought town would do (i.e. not read the initial post in its entirety)?

[zMuffinMan]

i'm more concerned with him adding the sentence at all. i don't really think it was a message to his scum buddies, but i don't see the sentence coming from a town mindset.

[zMuffinMan]

i also don't like the whole "townslip" thing

but that's mostly because i like doing that sort of thing a lot as scum and i don't think i've ever seen either head of morph call something a townslip, let alone something that weak when it was obviously a joke from bubba

[zMuffinMan]

everyone (allegedly) missing the IC thing is overall bad for the gamestate and I think that is the only thing someone might be ashamed for there

see, thing is, it was only a few people who had posted in between the townslip thing and that post, so "everyone" is an overstatement

him retracting it because a few people didn't catch it shouldn't surprise him if those few people are town (who he expects not to catch it)

and being ashamed that people are inattentive to detail while expecting them to be inattentive to detail still doesn't make a whole lot of sense. that just compounds my feelings that the whole sentence felt out of place

I also think that ffery's particular exit from the game is town looking.

dunno. looked a little forced, actually. didn't really see anything in your posts that would offend her that badly

[zMuffinMan]

being tunneled on when town by someone who she has a history with

...

it looks like a bit of an overreaction to being under not-that-much pressure being tunneled by someone you could easily ignore

if their history is _that_ bad, shouldn't she even expect it?

And my point is that he's clearly not playing to a scum wincon if he thinks "welp my scumbuddy missed it too BETTER GO TELL EVERYONE". Ergo he is doing sonething else.

ok. and my point is that the sentence felt out of place and didn't make a lot of sense given what was happening at the time. i'm not convinced it was a message to anybody, it just felt like it wasn't really warranted given what was going on at the time

[zMuffinMan]

what are your thoughts on pieguy?

[zMuffinMan]

i refuse to read those fucking giant quote walls. go fuck yourself if you're planning to do any more of them

[zMuffinMan]

I don't really disagree. Now what?

we could play hangman or something. i'm keen if you are

or if you don't wanna, you could talk to me about your other reads.

still not sure about the "slip" but oh well I'll bite for now

so much for your town block

the fact that he doesn't give a shit

i'd normally agree with this, but it's getting stale now

Finding townslips and riding them to a solid true townblock is my goal here

i've never seen you do this, especially with something as weak as what you were suggesting here

[zMuffinMan]

Do you want citations?

sure. games where you've specifically given someone a pass for a townslip

i don't care about mechanics stuff, so don't include that

[zMuffinMan]

tl;dr

[zMuffinMan]

do you still think cabd-slot is town?

[zMuffinMan]

You'd know the answer to that if you read my post~

well, i guess i'll never know~!

[zMuffinMan]

@cabd

heh. reading those examples only makes me feel weird about the lack of conviction from you about it in this game

[zMuffinMan]

i read a total of zero of your posts in FEA. you were long dead by the time i replaced in

[zMuffinMan]

lemme guess

my avatar?

[zMuffinMan]

you still owe me 5 pizzas for that game

[zMuffinMan]

One of Lush Life, GCBC(previously morph), Kise, Pie, and zMuffin is scum, if not more. Just lynch that list and we'll be gold.

was there any actual reason behind this list, btw? it looks like you just chose the top 5 posters outside of kaze and the IC

[zMuffinMan]

I am going first and will try to have observations and analysis from the first 10 pages. Anything I should know going into this?

yeah; skip the first 10 pages

[zMuffinMan]

I was being pieguy for a second - if you'd read the post, you would've understand

it didn't look like a pie impersonation but sure, whatever

what are your reads outside of pieguy?

[zMuffinMan]

i really dislike the pbpa bubba did in #750. there's so little analysis there; it reads like hollow commentary

[zMuffinMan]

I dont think ive properly adapted tp the new site meta of discrediting reasoning in favor of who can bark the loudest.
In my days we took the barker out back and shot it
Im disappointed

hey, dramonic

what did they do with dogs who didn't bark at all?

I kind of felt very strong town vibes from him after I got over paranoia and here I am not feeling it. like I feel nothing

maybe you should see a doctor about that

[zMuffinMan]

also, tsukasa could be scum. i briefly skimmed through that giant wall a few pages back and didn't like anything i saw

[zMuffinMan]

i didn't read it as related to the previous line, i read it as being a different thought in your catch-up process *shrug*

what don't you like about my posts?

[zMuffinMan]

How can you say that?
It's better if you say what you don't like specifically.
Just saying that wouldn't help me, nor anyone.

because there's no actual content there. like none, whatsoever. it's a huge wall designed to look like you're doing something when you're not doing anything at all, really. and all the questions you were asking were meaningless. plus the tone of all your commentary feels really off to me

[zMuffinMan]

i don't think it was a "slip" - just something i don't see coming from town. i also don't think they've done anything that looks town and i dunno why people are giving town reads to that slot. i think it has something to do with the posting volume or something? i dunno. why do you think that slot is town?

as for reads, ask again later and i might format a list. or, you know, read my posts. either way works

[zMuffinMan]

normally you have an opinion where i'll nod in agreement or a post which will bring a new light into my life

what do you mean "normally" btw? because two out of the three games i've played with you, i've been scum. and the other game i don't remember interacting with you much, if at all, nor you commenting on pretty much anything i was doing

[zMuffinMan]

i'm liking gcbc's recent posts, actually. he could be town

varsoon being a derp but also probably town

[zMuffinMan]

Pieguyn's not even around to respond

no. bad. and fucking wrong.

pieguy is here (on site), he's not V/LA, he's just not participating in this game. i've never seen him do this before, and i dunno why he's doing it here, but yeah, he's not absent. i have my suspicions that he did what he did here as a sort of weak mimickry of what ffery did.

[zMuffinMan]

zMuffin comes out of nowhere voting, then throwing down 2 town reads. Want to give a basis for any of those reads? We played together in the fruit bowl game correct? I remember not liking you much after that game, are you going to be playing the same way?

i don't remember what the basis for those reads was. it was like 30+ pages ago. i guess i liked something about their posts. or something. seeing as you apparently agree with the two town reads i gave in the early game, why do you even care what the basis for those reads was?

i also don't really care how much you like me. i don't remember much about the fruit game. i don't really remember anything about you. here's a tip, though. if you don't like how i play,

i don't give two shits so shut up about it and deal with it

[zMuffinMan]

@Kaze: Pie wagon too easy. There's scum on it. Nuff said.

Holy shit, am I agreeing with Varsoon?

hahaha, this post made me go and check what your read on pieguy is and i just realised you have him as town for... asking questions. also, most of the people voting pie are pretty high up on your town->scum scale, and varsoon's suspicions are like completely opposite to yours, so what exactly do you agree with varsoon about?

why do we have to be interacting for me to agree?

we don't, necessarily. but i don't remember you ever saying anything like that about my town game before and it stuck out as odd because you're more familiar with my scum game

[zMuffinMan]

it gets like that when almost 50% of the posts in this game are coming from 2 player-slots (i kinda wish they'd shut the fuck up and stop spamming but i know this isn't going to happen)

but that has nothing to do with why pieguy isn't here

[zMuffinMan]

I crumbed my role here

pausing my read-through to say this is the single greatest role claim i've ever read, kudos to you regardless of your alignment

one problem is i feel you almost made your crumbing

too

obvious

[zMuffinMan]

i don't want to lynch bubba. the stuff he's saying in regards to his claim is looking really town. the way he's getting frustrated about people not believing him is also coming across as townish. i don't really get why he'd honestly claim his role if he is a bomb, but meh

at the very least, if he is scum, he's been planning the bomb claim since the beginning. i'm in agreement with gcbc atm - treat it like a PGO claim

[zMuffinMan]

The character fits an enabler of some sort, or possibly a vig based on the gun-arm. Certainly not a bomb.

yeah. when a character's theme is nuclear fusion, my first assumption is certainly not a bomb

[zMuffinMan]

I'm getting pietown feels

the ISO catch-up was pretty average, really. called a bunch of people town and has like 10 null reads. recent jump onto GCBC for not backing down after he said he was obvtown doesn't make me feel any better and the explanation he gave for why he went MIA for 3 days didn't help either

what's giving you town feels?

can't read zmuffin for shit so I'm skipping him

since when did you give up on even trying to read me entirely?

Varsoon

i don't think he's scum here. i think i said it in imperishable night, but there's a difference between how stand-offish and confrontational he is as town compared to scum, plus i'm liking the confident tone in his posts (even if what he's saying is really derpy)

i also liked the post he made somewhere about wanting it to be a 1v1 with you. it was dumb, but it felt really town

[zMuffinMan]

varsoon,

thoughts on gcbc?

[zMuffinMan]

i actually read that entire case. and i didn't agree with any of it

like, if they are scum, i feel it'd be a case of you being right for all the wrong reasons

you're so deep in your conf bias now that you're seeing what you want to see

[zMuffinMan]

What does treating it like a PGO claim mean?

essentially, don't let it reach lylo. a little flexibility here depending on what happens between now and then (if this game even goes near lylo) and how strong my read on him is

We think its highly unlikely that there is both a 1-shot bomb and a 1-shot redirector. Both are powerful volatile roles. Including both makes the setup far too swingy.
Evaluating their play and not the claims, I've found both to be pretty independently scummy. But why would someone actually claim a bomb like that? They wouldn't. So we think thats the lie between the 2

i don't like this post at all. it feels like it's just setting up lynches

[zMuffinMan]

also,

Unvote

@the cok,

thoughts on the game? thoughts on anyone outside of bubba and varsoon? thoughts on life, the universe and everything?

[zMuffinMan]

i don't remember the specifics of what happened in marketplace, but if i said you're seeing what you want to see, i likely meant it

the thing about marketplace is i was intentionally manipulating my meta for the entire game up until morph died for the express purpose of fooling morph when they meta-dived me. quite literallly everything i was doing in that game was in an effort to fuck with morph (ctrl+f "meta" here). so i dunno. whatever you noticed about me in marketplace were either intentional things i was doing thinking it was the opposite of what i'd do as scum, or unconscious slips. some of the things you caught onto may have been slips, i don't really remember.

as for whether you're seeing what you want to see with kaze here, i'm probably the last person you should ask about this. the only experience i have with kaze is replacing into his slot as a third party in one game

[zMuffinMan]

That awkward moment when I think all 3 of those slots are town

that is what i'm currently thinking could be the case

i think there's a better shot at hitting scum by lynching from the players hiding in the background and not really saying much this game

Meanwhile, I believe that Messiah Complex's catch up felt like it was something they were being forced to do (even two heads catching up half way felt like they were splitting the load of producing content instead of splitting up the load on developing reads)

i noticed this as well and i don't really understand the logic behind it, but i didn't mind the desp-head's catch-up

[zMuffinMan]

actually

Vote: Tsukasa

gonna go with my gut here. tsukasa's involvement in this game has felt really off and i get bad vibes from all her long posts

[zMuffinMan]

i'm not scum reading desp. i was really meh on the formerfish head's catchup post

disclaimer: i trust my ability to read desp like i trust that saki is going to be the next paragon

[zMuffinMan]

it's usually a scum role and allows scum daychat but in this case it allows me and my partner to get mason daychat

does it specifically say it's limited to you and your partner?

[zMuffinMan]

Also pie I was kinda scumreading you for that crumb because I thought you were setting up a maosn fakeclaim down the line and masons + IC = pffft yeah right

er... sarcasm? you were in a game with masons + IC

[zMuffinMan]

encryptors can be town. n's game for a recent example

[zMuffinMan]

these cheating accusations need to stop. anyone with half a brain can click on your profile, look at your topics, and put two and two together from reading

[zMuffinMan]

if it's the active lurking, i'm with ya

although gaiden's in the same boat as kise, dramonic, AD and to some extent yunichikako, tsukasa and the cok in that respect. (and i guess the replacement-to-come slots as well)

[zMuffinMan]

just fucking bus messiah already

nah, i'm fine, thanks

@gaiden

reads? thoughts on game?

[zMuffinMan]

Pick a pool

my pool of preferred lynches contains mostly low content players atm

players i don't want to lynch today: lush life, bubba, pieguy, kaze, amaranth, GCBC, varsoon and to a lesser extent katarina and kagami

[zMuffinMan]

oh, and mc, but that's sorta gut based on the way they're responding to people here, i kinda want them to shut the fuck up and catch up on the game and post reads though

[zMuffinMan]

i rather like not being part of your "flow"

[zMuffinMan]

players i don't want to lynch today: lush life, bubba, pieguy, kaze, amaranth, GCBC, varsoon and to a lesser extent katarina and kagami

and mc

this still

[zMuffinMan]

what a silly question. the answer should be self-evident

[zMuffinMan]

Not like Gaiden's playstyle is anomalous or anything.

Either way I don't want him around down the line if all he's going to do is prod-dodge

he's vigbait, i wouldn't worry too much about it atm

Oh, yeah, and uh... Not a single hint towards any kind of catch-up from either of them. Every post has been made referencing current events. So that was entirely hot air being blown about

yep x 100. i kinda wanna give them room to catch up but i have low expectations

if a bomb dies via plurality lynch, would it still go off?

bombs don't "go off" from lynches

[zMuffinMan]

You know, we should lynch me, that way if there is a vig or something they don't try to fucking kill me

if you were town, you could just, you know,

not arm yourself

bomb is a stupid claim for scum though because you can just run them up to l-1 and force the second-scummiest person to hammer

i don't think he's claiming supersaint

[zMuffinMan]

it wasn't a suggestion, i really don't care, it was me pointing out how silly the statement was

[zMuffinMan]

town varsoon is whiny and needy and convinced there are seekrit friend societies everywhere that are designed to exclude him. <---- I am seeing none of that here. this to me looks like his cocky, confident scumplay cos varsoon loves playing scum and he is pretty good at it.

that's like... totally opposite how i'd describe varsoon's play as either alignment, but varsoon's play lately has been different, anyway. the vibes i'm getting from varsoon this game are a lot more in line with what i've seen from varsoon-town lately, and i really don't think he's scum here. like i'd almost be willing to bet money on this read - he's either playing an out-of-his-mind scum game hitting all the cues i expect from town-varsoon or he's town here.

I am looking at this and I can tell already I want muffina and kagami dead dead deader than dead

*shrug* i think i know why you think this, but you're way off on me. this game is somewhat annoying for me at the moment because basically all my reads are being ignored and people are pushing shit wagons. it would not surprise me in the least if all the major wagons being pushed at the moment are town. and the shittest part is i'm pretty sure whatever i say is just going to be ignored or drowned out here. you guys seem so stuck in your reads that you're not going to change your minds, jaqen has his own little thing going, GCBC and varsoon have this shitty death tunnel thing going on. i feel like shit because i don't really know what to say at this point to change things.

[zMuffinMan]

yeah, i don't like much about tsukasa's posting at all. only point in tsukasa's favour is she's not jumping all over gaiden at the moment.

at this point, i'll lynch anyone in {Kise, saki, AD, dram, tsukasa, serene, the cok} today

[zMuffinMan]

huh. weird. I can think of 3 games off the top of my head where he complained that every1 else knew each other and he felt left out (paraphrasing). he even subbed out of reboot over it. so I am not sure where you are getting this from. the difference here and in his scum game is the activity level

i don't know what you're referring to here, but i'm pretty sure activity isn't an alignment-indicative thing for varsoon. his attitude and mannerisms in this game are a lot more in line with what i know of his town game.

this response is so full of meh.

*shrug* i'll compromise on pretty much anyone i don't have at least a weak town read on at this point.

why kise? why not bubba?

bubba is probably town. kise probably isn't.

[zMuffinMan]

both of these wagons suck

[zMuffinMan]

It's a worthless mislynch, but it's a shot in the dark

yep

this game would be better without Gaiden in it

yep

U are ou t of your fucking minds if you think gaiden has more of a chance flipping scum than varsoon

nope

Unvote
Vote: Gaiden

[zMuffinMan]

This Gaiden wagon makes me want to make a muffin wagon too

...

you're voting gaiden

[zMuffinMan]

I'm not switching. the gaiden wagon looks really scum driven and the Varsoon wagon looks town-driven (although this is positional) and it makes me think gaiden is a scum-driven counterwagon to Varsoon. add to that how easy gaiden is to lynch considering he's been a giant lurkfuck and his wagon is skeevy is fuck

i'm on gaiden purely as a counter-wagon to varsoon. i dislike the idea of a gaiden lynch less than i dislike the idea of a varsoon lynch. there's like <4 hours left to get >8 people agreeing on a wagon that isn't either of gaiden or varsoon. it's probably not happening.

i'll be around~ish til deadline either way

[zMuffinMan]

hey zmuffin if you hop on dan it's only 4 votes

that entirely depends on whether jaqen and lush life put their votes back on varsoon

you can consider my vote on dan in spirit but i expect it won't happen today

[zMuffinMan]

the same claimed mason who is trying to flashwagon said player?

[zMuffinMan]

stop being emo. unvote yourself

[zMuffinMan]

it's a 7-7 split on you and gaiden atm (including your self-vote) if i'm counting right

[zMuffinMan]

Varsoon (L-4)

: ActionDan | dramonic | Mac | GoodCop_BadCop | The Chamber of Kittens | Lush Life | Varsoon

SXTLHGaiden (L-4)

: Kazekirimaru | Katerina LeBlanc | Kagami | Messiah Complex | zMuffinMan | bubbajack8 | Serene

ActionDan (L-9)

: pieguyn | Saki

bubbajack8 (L-8)

: Kise | SXTLHGaiden | Tsukasa

Messiah Complex (L-10)

: Amaranth

GCBC (L-10)

: Jaqen Hghar

^this is current i think

[zMuffinMan]

jaqen, GCBC isn't happening today. there's like 25 minutes to the deadline. and varsoon most likely isn't scum.

cabd, pieguy is only calling gaiden a bad lynch because of his personal reads on the players on the gaiden wagon. i could literally not care less about his opinion here.

[zMuffinMan]

20 minutes

[zMuffinMan]

@cabd

do you actually think varsoon is scum here? do you think his play makes sense as scum here?

IF there's scum in gaiden and varsoon, it's gaiden. i care more about my reads than about roles.

[zMuffinMan]

@cabd

i don't even think gaiden is all that likely to flip scum and he could very well be town

but varsoon isn't scum here


@jaqen,

half the players you listed don't have a scum read on GCBC

[zMuffinMan]

it is not happening, jaqen

<4 minutes

[zMuffinMan]

you need your head checked if you think i'm scum

[zMuffinMan]

bork

kindly pull your head out of your ass

[zMuffinMan]

Will you deny that this type of bus is your scum MO?

is this why you think i'm scum?

cabd, you know my scum MO, i know you know my scum MO, and you know i know you know my scum MO. do you honestly think i'd play a standard game here if i were scum?

[zMuffinMan]

if you think i'm scum here, vote me

[zMuffinMan]

muffina was barely a blip on the radar yesterday, holding back playing it safe, staying away from the major wagons only to make an offhand comment "oh I think all of the main wagons are town!" and yet do nothing to support any of the town reads. <----- scum 101 guyz for realz I promise you from the bottom of my heart muffina will flip red. its just it is such basic scumplay it seems like it is easy to overlook cos yanno it seems kind of obvious! all of his posts are "safe" when maffina is not a safe player and they are designed to promote longevity in a game (not make waves and let town eat their own) and not trying to actually figure things out. DIE SCUMFUCK DIE!!!!1!!

mollie, you quite literally have no idea what my town game looks like. you're making sweeping generalisations here that are so wrong it's not even funny. like, literally every single thing you said in this paragraph is wrong.

[zMuffinMan]

What I'm saying is very straightforward: the best place to look for scum is on the varsoon wagon. It doesn't matter that there might be a scum on the gaiden lynch or off the wagon, there are likely multiple scum on varsoon and it's a small suspect pool to lynch from.

pretty much what i'm thinking atm. the cok, AD, dram in roughly that order

[zMuffinMan]

is that just on the final wagon(s) of D1?

[zMuffinMan]

I think Pie's comments re: Gaiden's wagon still ring true to me. A purely town scum-flash wagon doesn't make any sense

my thoughts on this are basically the same as desp's. IF there was scum on the gaiden wagon, it's among the players early on it that couldn't really jump off. saki is a possibility (because saki's vote didn't matter at all) but saki is saki

why did Varsoon tie up his wagon with Gaiden when the tie still would have resulted in a Gaiden lynch?

pretty sure varsoon didn't realise plurality lynches were a thing in this game (which matches with what he was saying at the end of yesterday about making a lynch, any lynch, happen) and he was being varsoon

[zMuffinMan]

I'll help you lynch muffin mollie.

why?

what are your other thoughts on the game?

[zMuffinMan]

Same reason you put me on your lynch list out of the blue yesterday.

what reason is that? answer the other question

[zMuffinMan]

What part of out of the blue didn't you understand?

... what are your other thoughts on the game?

And it seems Varsoon knew plenty about a plurality lynch. Why does Varsoon lie?

that post seems to have come way after somebody had pointed out to varsoon that plurality lynches were a thing

Caught up from phone. I'm pretty sure actiondan targeted serene, not CoK. Need pie to confirm tho.

~GC

i read that as kise thinking pie was crumbing something

[zMuffinMan]

Vote Gaiden

Why go lva when they have been nonexistent all game?

VOTE: Gaiden
Going fur it.

It's a worthless mislynch, but it's a shot in the dark that's better than letting myself die.

this series of posts didn't look like it came from varsoon-scum knowing gaiden is scum and it kinda invalidates the theory he was protecting gaiden

[zMuffinMan]

AD as well

what happened to you not being a fan of the AD wagon in 2700?

[zMuffinMan]

can one of you unvote so there's a little breathing room? i don't give a fuck if i'm ruining your "gambit"

@AD,

was there any particular reason you targeted cok?

[zMuffinMan]

AD looking at the cok last night would explain why he was lusting after the cok so much today, actually

Vote: the CoK

[zMuffinMan]

And you don't say anything until now?

it's not that surprising. if i'd looked at cok last night, i wouldn't want to reveal it publicly.

(because keeping your role hidden is optimal play)

[zMuffinMan]

i'm town

lush life did not investigate me and anyone with half a brain could figure that out.

do you really think they would have joined the action dan wagon if they had a guilty on me? mollie would have been screaming down the action dan wagon and telling people it can wait til tomorrow if they actually had a guilty on me.

i'm aya, 2-shot tracker. dram went nowhere N1, katarina went nowhere N2. i checked dram N1 because i didn't like his play D1 and he made sense as scum on the varsoon wagon, i checked katarina N2 because i didn't like the way she jumped onto the action dan wagon after previously saying she didn't like it and i figured if i caught her targeting anyone it'd be a scum claim and a negative track result would semi-confirm her as town.

[zMuffinMan]

lush life were tunneled on me, but it literally had nothing to do with my actual alignment and everything to do with mollie's issues with my play. and i think part of that is because of [redacted]. *shrug*

if i'm going to be lynched anyway, give me a bit to organise my thoughts on the game.

Who do you think lush investigated?

i can think of a couple possibilities. bubba is one, given they completely backed off bubba D2 and majiffy went all apathetic about being wrong in all his reads. you're another possibility given how sure they were that you're town.

Yes. It's called trying not too be too obvious.

mollie isn't a bad player. if she had a guilty on me, she wouldn't willingly lynch someone else.

[zMuffinMan]

in what world does a cop leave someone they have a guilty on to pursue people they're unsure about?

Those three are the type to leave their claim running out there while hopefully getting more results

yeah, well, i know that's not true. but if you think this, link to any game anyone of them have been a cop and exhibited similar behaviour with a guilty

Like that's pretty fucking blatant and if this is not them claiming a guilty we'll have words with them postgame

that's literally just them saying they were talking about the game last night

[zMuffinMan]

WHY THE FUCK WOULD THEY INSPECT BUBBA?

... are you serious?

tbh, if i were a cop, bubba would have been a primary choice for investigation even IF i didn't think he's scum (and at least one of them did think this)

like i know you think i'm caught scum and all, and it's cute, but you're wrong.

[zMuffinMan]

Why would you track me when I claimed Oracle.

because your play yesterday didn't make a lot of sense. you went from speaking out against the action dan wagon to being fine with it over 200 posts and i didn't buy your explanation for it at all. i didn't really care about your oracle claim; it could have been a fake-claim

[zMuffinMan]

also, pie, if you're asking why they might have investigated bubba last night

The Jif is back, but I'm probably just going to lurk out the rest of the day while Mollie and Bork do their thing and come back D2 for more bubbalynch.

I'm probably going to step away from the hydra for a while. I'm a bit bummed at pretty much all of my reads being wrong so I'm just going to let Bork and Mollie play for a while.

or what do you make of this?

the exact words I said were "not a fan of AD wagon"

correct. and then you apparently changed your mind.

Why would I openly push for a wagon on scum as scum

...

[zMuffinMan]

its obviously you Muffin

yeah, well, funny thing about that is i know it wasn't me. don't ask how i know this, though, it's a secret. i'll give you a special hint, though. it has to do with me being town

Who the hell wouldnt move.

any sane person with a fundamental understanding of how the game is played

[zMuffinMan]

...

my issue with you wasn't "changing lynch targets", it's changing to someone whose wagon you weren't previously "a fan" of. action dan was never mentioned as a scum read of yours, and saying you're not a fan of the wagon then turning around and voting him 200 posts later didn't make any sense.

there's no twisting of words here. that is what happened, and that is why i was suspicious of you

[zMuffinMan]

I wasn't a fan because I didn't know why the wagon existed.

also didn't buy this as an explanation for why you weren't a fan

[zMuffinMan]

anyway, give me like half a day to catch up on stuff in other games then organise my thoughts here if i'm going to be lynched anyway

i don't really feel like arguing against the derp anymore and i kinda wanna go to the dead QT and see the spoilers

[zMuffinMan]

I used it on zmuffin N2 and GIF never sent me a result PM. I'm checking to see what the hell happened

i dunno if i'm allowed to talk about time stamps of PMs but i received my track result from last night a long time after this day phase actually started

so that could have something to do with it

[zMuffinMan]

Sorry Pie, I did it. T_T

:/ woulda been nice if pieguy semi-confirmed me here

[zMuffinMan]

it's actually because they let mollie take over

go back and look for who they actually investigated tomorrow

[zMuffinMan]

also pretty sure mollie did think i was scum D1, as did bork

so them discussing me overnight and thinking i'm scum D2 isn't a surprise, even if they were blatantly wrong

*shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

all I saw from mollie to you late in d1 was a small "muffin what say you" line in a huge molliepost

mollie thought i was scum for most of D1 iirc, i'm pretty sure you could see this if you look at anywhere mollie actually mentioned her read on me

Bork had 1 scum in {Muffin, Pie, Kagami} D1 which turned into 1 scum in {Muffin} D2.

i can think of a number of possible reasons for this. one big reason could be that pieguy was a confirmed mason at this point - i'm not entirely sure, but this might have played a factor in why bork was no longer scum reading pie. and i'm pretty sure bork was calling kagami town for most of D1 and suggesting if there was scum in that trio it wasn't kagami. so. yeah.

[zMuffinMan]

Draw up your reads before saki uses his murdercock or whatnot, then. You're the lynch today no matter what pretty much.

i'll have my thoughts out in the next few hours.

So like I said, you're welcome to provide evidence of this...

Spoiler:

if it's the active lurking, i'm with ya

although gaiden's in the same boat as kise, dramonic, AD and to some extent yunichikako, tsukasa and the cok in that respect. (and i guess the replacement-to-come slots as well)

just fucking bus messiah already

also losing interest in this game I think. which I guess some people will be happy with!

kaze is pure town and so is mac too I think. kat as well but watch out for muffin cos his angles are kind of opportunistic. he is trying to match the flow of the game instead of being a part of it.

VC 1.19

>

Varsoon (L-5):

ActionDan | Serene | dramonic | Lush Life | Mac | pieguyn

bubbajack8 (L-9):

Messiah Complex | Kise

GoodCop_BadCop (L-8):

Kagami | Jaqen Hghar | Varsoon

Messiah Complex (L-10):

Amaranth

Tsukasa (L-10):

zMuffinman

SXTLHGaiden (L-8):

Kazekirimaru | bubbajack8 | Katerina LeBlanc

Kazekirimaru (L-10):

The Chamber of Kittens

dramonic (L-10):

Tsukasa

Not Voting:

Saki, SXTLHGaiden, GoodCop_BadCop

With 21 alive, it takes 11 votes to lynch.

I am looking at this and I can tell already I want muffina and kagami dead dead deader than dead.

someone asked about the case on serene: when I look into dgb's beautiful eyes I get the feeling she wants to kill me cos her role pm told her to. kuribo traded his murdercock rage for a scythe and fate desperately wants a body to dance on top of. don't you get that feeling?

from late D1, although you can go back to earlier D1 and see she was tunneled on me from the first time she gave a read on me.

Or they investigated you

i'm like 99.999% sure that didn't happen, with a 0.001% margin of error

[zMuffinMan]

nacho, were you part of amaranth?

[zMuffinMan]

actually, i think this game can almost be won through poe at this point

16 alive

jaqen town, pieguy town

kagami is almost certainly town. he's been consistently leading lynches on scum (gaiden, CoK before the guilty) and his play just looks town

AD is almost certainly town. i don't think the cok thing was a bus.

varsoon is very likely town. i still think everything about his D1 play points to him being town.

bubba is probably town. he has this completely lost feel about him and i'm not sensing any scum intent in the way he's pushing things this game.

katarina is... probably town. the negative track is a semi-confirm and i kinda felt the way she reacted to me today looked town.

i *think* this is mac's town game. there was a sort of confidence about his posts D1 and the way he was questioning people, interacting with people that looked really town. him not being around much the last couple day phases is kinda meh, but still probably town

MC's play around the gaiden wagon did not look like bussing, and the way he's been approaching reads this game looks really town

kise is some sort of gifter or something. i haven't liked much about his play but this alone makes him probably town

i had a gut feel about amaranth being town but i really wanted to see more from the slot to solidify this

of the remaining players,

GCBC probably shouldn't be around if this game goes near lylo. i don't buy their explanation for claiming the bulletproof - they were better off not claiming at all, and saying that kise pointed out a crumb made them claim is dumb because it suggests they were crumbing the bulletproof. also not really sure what the prohawk head is doing atm; the VCA D2 was lacklustre and i expected more from the analysis

dram i dunno. he's done nothing this game, really. could be coasting scum. negative track result doesn't mean as much when scum had a ninja performing the kill. Varsoon (L-4): ActionDan | dramonic | Mac | Lush Life | GoodCop_BadCop | The Chamber of Kittens | Varsoon <- either him or GCBC for second scum on this wagon, i think

i didn't really like anything the tsukasa-slot did. the tone of his posts and the way he was approaching things looked like scum. replacement hasn't been here. very likely scum

and saki is being saki

Muffin give your reads and stop fucking procrastinating, next post has to be long and have player names

i believe it was confucius who first said, "suck on my chocolate salty balls."

[zMuffinMan]

cabd

what are your current reads?

[zMuffinMan]

also what are your thoughts on 3056 and 3058?

[zMuffinMan]

What does concern me is you hunting the Varsoon wagon and not your own quick wagon. If you really are town, it should be pretty freaking obvious from the speed and reasoning behind your wagon that scum would be salivating to hop on.

it is hard to distinguish players who legitimately think there was a cop guilty on me from players who are pretending to, but if you actually read the reads i just gave, you'd see i was thinking about this (see the read on katarina, for example, and while i didn't explicitly state it, the bubba read is also partially influenced by his responses to me today).

also not really sure why this bothers you. suppose i do get lynched. how are you going to look back at the wagon on me and discern scum from town?

I also don't like how you are writing off Varsoon as very very likely town because his D1 play points to him being town when I absolutely disagree, and echo Jaqen's sentiments re: Varsoon from D2.

mm. it is largely a meta read - there are a lot of things that don't make sense about his play from the perspective he's scum. i went over this a lot D1 and you didn't seem to have an issue with it then :/

i read that jaqen post, and i don't agree with it at all. what "sentiments" do you "echo"? his point about #2063 didn't make a lot of sense to me because i don't think it was a slip and it's nonsensical for varsoon to say something like that in thread if he "us" was referring to his scum team. also disagree with the idea that he was sacrificing himself for the team; i went over this yesterday when i quoted the part of the thread where he voted gaiden.

[zMuffinMan]

for reference, what i mentioned yesterday re: varsoon

Vote Gaiden

Why go lva when they have been nonexistent all game?

VOTE: Gaiden
Going fur it.

It's a worthless mislynch, but it's a shot in the dark that's better than letting myself die.

this series of posts didn't look like it came from varsoon-scum knowing gaiden is scum and it kinda invalidates the theory he was protecting gaiden

[zMuffinMan]

also keep in mind I've said not to CC. there are behavioral reasons zmuffin is scum here (and I'd go nacho scum too bc why the hell not). I'd be fine with a possible CC if it'd make everyone feel better, though obv it'd happen anyway if we massclaim

pieguy, you don't know how to read my behaviour as well as you think you do. or you're being stubborn here. i dunno

there will be no tracker counter-claim

and the funny thing is even with a flipped ninja and me claiming tracker with no counter-claim, meaning i'm practically IC-level inno, you're still probably going to be stubborn about this

[zMuffinMan]

Lush made it abundantly clear that the investigation target was muffin

no, mollie made it abundantly clear she was tunneling me.

you're reading too much into mollie's suspicion of me without considering the fact that she would not unvote me so willingly if she had a guilty on me. like, this is fairly basic theory stuff.

Does a Wolf see the implications of and the good which may come out of his lynch? It'll confirm 2 scum if a Wolf can be trusted.

you're tunneling too hard on Varsoon. i'm pretty sure he's town here and you're way off base. if you're suggesting he's scum who redirected mollie, i don't believe mollie even investigated me.

but yes, GCBC not seeing obvious signs that i'm town (like my claim with a ninja flip and no cc) or the fact that mollie would

not

let up on me if she actually had a guilty means he's probably scum. prohawk's response to me was pretty bad.

[zMuffinMan]

wat

[zMuffinMan]

mollie thought i was scum D1, mollie didn't say her reads were wrong after D1

[zMuffinMan]

...

[zMuffinMan]

please lynch that tomorrow.

there is no way that is town.

[zMuffinMan]

you're wrong on a couple points, bubba.

i don't believe mollie was scum reading mc at the end of D1. and mollie

was

scum reading me at the end of D1 (i even provided the quotes, which you seem to have skipped over). so yes, bork and mollie were scum reading me and they obviously discussed it N1.

what you and everyone but nacho seem to be ignoring is that mollie isn't a bad player; if she had a guilty, she wouldn't so willingly vote someone she's unsure about in the way she did. this is really, really basic theory.

[zMuffinMan]

no and no you didn't. your ideas about theory are rather flawed. did you read #3056/#3058, btw? because even if you don't take my word for it, nacho knows how mollie plays and you clearly don't.

[zMuffinMan]

Spoiler: @pie

this post isn't saying "i'm town, they didn't investigate me" it's asying "they didn't investigate me, therefore i'm town".

it's saying they didn't investigate me, and i'm town. there is no "therefore".

not to mention, if you have 2-shot tracker, why would you use both of them immediately? it's infinitely more useful to save at least one for the potential to confirm or deny claims down the road

you're arguing about theory here and you're wrong

the katarina track is also bullshit because she was town as fuck and after she fullclaimed oracle they would have no reasno to send her to perform the kill

katarina was about as town as a goldfish is black. i explained why i thought katarina could be scum. and checking your ISO,

you

didn't even think katarina was town up until the oracle claim, after which you gave a vague mention about thinking the claim looked town. so don't give me bullshit about how katarina was "town as fuck"

also i wasn't tracking katarina specifically because she might have performed the kill (i disagree that she wouldn't have performed it as scum, because she was an unlikely track target - lol - and it entirely depends who's scum and what PRs they still have) but because

any

action from her would have confirmed her as scum. and a lack of actions is a semi-confirm she's town.

this is BS. he literally just made this up. after i pm'ed GIF asking for my result he said there was no result. so logically, the reason i didn't get a pm at first is because he doesn't send a result PM to someone who gets roleblocked, and not due to some "delay". also, when i got my invention, he PM'ed me before he flipped serene and day actually started and i was able to make a post in the mason QT saying "ohi i got a gift" before realizing they died. so i would expect the same would hold for investigation results

lol

why the fuck would i lie about that?

he sent me my result well after the day phase started, and i assumed this might have had something to do with why you didn't receive a result.

ftr, this did not happen N1, only N2.

he's trying to subtly introduce the notion of investigating bubba being a viable move

there was nothing subtle about it. again, this is a theory point and you're wrong. bubba is a

claimed bomb

(albeit 1-shot), he's very unlikely to die at night <- from a theory standpoint, this is a good investigation. AND majiffy was scum reading him, so all the more so.

here he says that PeregrineV's paranoia of him was unfounded, but instead of being direct about it, he slides it in at the end of the paragraph.

that is the exact response i would have given as town, word for word, because the suspicion was based on a misunderstanding - everything i said there was true, and the long-winded nature of the post was to explain the situation properly.

so GIF is obviously the type of moderator who has no problem with putting misleading stuff like this in his games. I wouldn't put it past him to put a ninja without a tracker

is your theory now that i'm scum who somehow knew there wasn't a tracker in the game? because i don't understand why you're being this stubborn

also. re AA:MFA, just FYI, ninja serial killer vs mafia tracker is NOT a red herring; it is sensible and logical. but here we have a mafia ninja flip. so unless you're suggesting i'm a tracker SK or something, i don't get it.

he's dissipating the wagon on him by making everyone run around in circles. this is scum tactic 101 and it's what he's doing here

pieguy, no matter how hard you wish for it, i'm still not scum.

take a step back and think about things from the perspective i'm town. inb4youcallthismanipulation :/

A: Why nacho directly lied about that if he's town.

B: Why nacho didn't break up the mollie-ffery fight if he's town.

i can think of a very obvious answer to the first question and the fact you can't is strange

and amaranth's first post was well after ffery had replaced out, so what's the point of the second question?

hey cabd, why aren't you doing any setup spec? coz usually you'd be all over it right now, and the only reason i can see you avoiding it is you'd have to admit i'm almost certainly town

also, have you discussed my meta with prohawk? coz i can

maaaybe

understand him being under the impression that i don't make personal attacks as town (coz he's only ever seen one town game of mine that was rather tame) but you should know this isn't true so if you've discussed me at all, 3131 makes no sense (disregarding the fact that what he quoted wasn't even a personal attack).

[zMuffinMan]

the amount of derp in this game is funny

i'm a claimed tracker, no CC, and there's a flipped scum ninja <- like, literally the only possible way you can think i'm scum from this is if you think gif would include a scum ninja for no reason and i'm suicidal

the case on me boils down to lush being suspicious of me D2 and they were a cop. but this ignores the fact that mollie unvoted me and was perfectly fine with voting AD instead (no cop with a guilty ever does this - and no, surviving extra nights isn't a reasonable explanation for this, bubba) and people are also ignoring the fact that nacho is pointing out that mollie doesn't play like that with a guilty

so many people acting oblivious to all this is wow

[zMuffinMan]

Why would they openly claim their inspect against another wagon that they're for???

...

you don't lynch a person you

think

could be scum if you know someone else is scum

the reads that Lush gave it is definitely indicative that they copped you

so what do you think of nacho pointing out that isn't how they play with a guilty?

[zMuffinMan]

@kat

have you ever played with any of the heads of lush life? coz they're not shy about screaming for their preferred lynches when they're

not

sure of a read (see D1 here, for example, although that was mostly majiffy) - if they had a guilty on me, they wouldn't have let the AD wagon happen

and you keep ignoring the fact that someone has said mollie has had no issue with outing guilties in the past

use your head

[zMuffinMan]

if you do lynch me, do not let cabd or anyone try to talk you into the idea that varsoon must be scum who redirected lush life <- in the very likely event gcbc is scum, this is where they will probably go tomorrow (which is most likely why prohawk is still pushing the idea that varsoon is scum)

[zMuffinMan]

tho is muffin pushing gcbc hard enough idk

if he isn't he very well might be 3p

heh

you rolled SK again, didn't you?

[zMuffinMan]

yeah, you're not town

you'd be trying to figure things out now if you were town

instead you're pushing the same tired line

Vote: GCBC

[zMuffinMan]

'Un CC'd tracker with a flipped scum ninja"
"Un CC'd bulletproof (with no true doc claim) with a flipped scum strongman"

And yet nbody sees the issue with this logic?

even if there weren't a true doc claim, tracker vs ninja is in no way similar to 1-shot strongman vs bulletproof. and you know this

[zMuffinMan]

Yeah I wake up at 5PM after sleeping off being up vomiting till 6am, see a metric fuckton of votes on me, I kinda proceed under the assumption that I'm already dead and racing for the lock.

ok. it was five votes with a votecount at the top of the page, but sure, whatever.

you're around now and still not trying to figure things out.

His scum MO is hard busing, and hard busing early.

~Him and nacho to DP in marketplace
~Him to like half of his team when replacing into death's diner
~Him to Bro in bork's touhou mini
~Him right here in this game to gaiden

~ i didn't even want to bus DP in marketplace - read the scum QT or just ask nacho
~ i did that in death's diner because i replaced into a slot that was being run up and i did it for the express purposes of creating wifom from my reads list after i was dead <- i put literally all my buddies in my scum list only because i might have been flipped that day
~ BRO in touhou was specifically because of the negative utility attached to his role
~ no

[zMuffinMan]

the fact that you're trying to associate a scum lynch with my supposed "bussing" meta is rofl

i didn't even think gaiden was all that scummy, i voted him purely as an alternative to the varsoon wagon

Do you have scum games that refute the statement?

you could look at open 519 as an example

i don't bus unless there's something to be gained from it (like in imperishable night or in death's diner). i play it strategically, not stupidly.

[zMuffinMan]

you could look at open 519 as an example

ftr, i only have 4 recent scum games (as in the last 2 years) and you named 3 of them

and of the 3 you named, i didn't even want to bus in one, one was because i assumed i was going to be lynched and was purposefully distancing and one was purely for the negative utility associated with my partner's role (again, anyone can read the scum QT and see this)

[zMuffinMan]

I do. Nothing will shake me on that.

you are not town, or you are being really dense about this

[zMuffinMan]

If he's by some miracle town

i wanna get a couple things straight, here

you think gif included a ninja and no tracker/watcher? you think i'm scum dumb enough to claim tracker/watcher when there's a flipped ninja?

and you think i bussed gaiden for no strategic purpose when you know that's not how i play as scum?

and all this because you think lush life crumbed a guilty on me, despite the fact mollie was perfectly fine with voting AD over me, and the fact nacho is pointing out that mollie has no problem outing guilties?

[zMuffinMan]

Okay muffin. Thought experiment. You, me, nacho are all town. Who is the scumteam; and who did lush investigate?

i don't know who lush investigated. i would guess kagami or bubba. MC is a possibility. you're looking for crumbs and ignoring the fact they didn't necessarily crumb an inno blatantly ("hey guys, my read on X has completely reversed for no reason!"). the fact is, i don't care. and that's IF they even got a result. it's not affecting my reads atm.

if you're town, then i really need to reassess things. i still don't like dramonic or saki.

what's your own answer to the thought experiment?

[zMuffinMan]

I don't rule out the possibility given that his micro I was scum with bert in; we had a strongman against a team of vanillas. He's not quite as fond of red herrings as I am, but yes, I don't doubt he'd be willing to put one out there.

in order to believe this, you'd have to believe gif gimped the scum team in a power heavy game

And this is something that you refute but I do not buy.

did you read the marketplace QT? or the imperishable night QT? or open 519?

[zMuffinMan]

Elaborate.

because the ninja is essentially a goon, and assuming the very likely scenario in which AD is town, isn't even immune to the kill cop. in a game with all VTs, a strongman for trololol isn't a big deal.

also, re: AA MFA and the fake flavour role claims thing, you'd have to think that gif gave me a tracker fake claim as scum with a ninja... like, really?

Like, I don't see why the scumteam having both a Ninja and a Tracker is something crazy enough that GiF wouldn't do it?

seriously?

[zMuffinMan]

Let's say we shelf lynching me until the day before LYLO where I agree to self vote; and we don't lynch Muffin or Nacho. Where exactly does that leave us? Lynching Saki? I mean as much as I'd love to see saki dead that just leaves the jumbled mess for another day.

this is really odd, btw

like, yeah, this will need to be resolved at some point, but if you think saki is scum, why wouldn't that be a good thing?

Yes, and?

and nothing. you're not thinking if you're actually suggesting this is likely.

[zMuffinMan]

Unvote

[zMuffinMan]

cabd

when/why did you start thinking nacho is scum?

[zMuffinMan]

that time line is messed up a bit?

amaranth didn't post til after ffery had already left (like well after)

[zMuffinMan]

his D3 opening post:

wagon currently strikes me as dumb

this cemented it?

[zMuffinMan]

Mostly because Nacho agreed that he didnt intervene because he thought mollie could handle herself or something like that.

he was talking about a separate thing.

ffery and mollie had a fight, ffery left

then cabd and mollie had a little back and forth, and nacho was saying he didn't intervene in this one

[zMuffinMan]

Okay by "opening post" I meant his big one defending you.

3056 or 3058?

coz i could see him defending me like that as town or scum but there's nothing that looks scummy in that

or are you saying he's scum because you think i'm scum and you think this was him defending me?

[zMuffinMan]

Except Cabd was talking about the former all the time, and i have found that quite obvious... So should have Nacho

i don't really understand what you're getting at here coz nacho did know that is what he was talking about

his push on me right now feels like when scumnacho hones in on a good mislynch target and starts going wild.

i get the feeling nacho is still in the process of sorting you, he hasn't been pushing you all that hard

[zMuffinMan]

@cabd,

outside the nacho one, most of your other reads are in line with my own. IF you're town (and the way you're being stubborn here is making me think this could be possible), i think there's a very good chance saki is scum (recent posts about me being third party were really awkward) and dram's probably scum, too.

so let's talk about your read on me. you have this idea that my behaviour towards gaiden looked like standard bussing i do. i'm telling you that if you've ever read any scum QT of mine in any of the games i've bussed a scum mate, you'd know how far off you are (i wouldn't bus like that for no reason). and the other reason you seem to think i'm scum is because lush's vote on me at the start of D2 looked like crumbing a guilty. but they unvoted me with like no resistance to pursue an AD lynch, and nacho is pointing out that mollie does not play like that with a guilty and is perfectly fine with outing a guilty.

is there any other reason you think i'm scum? has this back and forth done nothing to change your mind?

[zMuffinMan]

he could just ask nacho about it since nacho was with me in real time as it was happening and knows i didn't wanna do it

[zMuffinMan]

He is, I don't disagree, but would a hypothetical me-scum make him town?
Once again, yes, probably, but I don't see how me being scum would make both fo these town magically?

i dunno where you got that from anything i wrote. they would be my top two scum picks if i knew you were town - but you being scum doesn't exclude the possibility they're also scum.

This is very debatable. I've read through a scum QT or two of yours and don't get the same indication. Care to link specific QT posts for what you're trying to state?

death's diner: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/qUpTJeDh9JupS (see /m178, for example, where i explained in the first paragraph why i did what i did at the start of the day) but i made all my other thought processes on why i was or wasn't doing things pretty clear
imperishable night: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/VbkajUNKB8K (both nacho and i made it pretty clear we were only bussing bro for his role <- see my thoughts in /m45 for example)
marketplace: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/Y32YtvQMfpPz (cbf finding the specifics, ask nacho)

you could also read open 519 (i was scum with TNE there) if you want to see an example of where there was

no

strategic value in bussing him so i never did.

surely you you realize that this post kind of gives me a mini alarm bell too given you made a post kiiiinda along these lines to pie in marketplace and won him over, right?

mm, what i did in marketplace was a little different (i wasn't using logic, i was using conjecture there), but yes, you could probably find some similarities to what i did to pie in marketplace.

this is how shit works, though. i'm town, you're reading me incorrectly - if you're town, i want you to see this

Hawkie's VCA, if you'd like to re-walk that path be my guest and let's talk about it.

i don't really know what he didn't like about me from the VCA - he was basing it all on vote positioning and not looking at what was actually happening in the game at the time (inc. the looming deadline)

[zMuffinMan]

Reading these, hang on.

and while i'm thinking about it, another thing of note about imperishable night is that i actually intended to have both my scum buddies as strong town reads for the entire game (see anything i said about them in the early game) and i only switched to bussing after it became obvious who the one-directional lover was.

[zMuffinMan]

we might have eventually (because of the nature of bro's role) but it wasn't by any means a priority. at the time i was worried about you because cross game meta (note we killed you off in marketplace around the time you died in imperishable night)

[zMuffinMan]

todo list: reread how D1 panned out later tonight

(plus i'm waiting to see what people say about what's happened recently)

[zMuffinMan]

Youir statement was "If GCBC town, then X and Y scum" so from what I read it as, you were only saying they were scum fi I was town

missed this earlier

i'm working off a poe list similar to yours - my thoughts on them have nothing to do with you

Excuse me mr. Muffin, what is good this day?

what's your opinion on what's happened?

Both bork and mollie went from bork not mentioning muffin in his reads too much to wanting to lynch him, and mollie swapping him into her scum pile to lynching him with fire

how much of the thread have you read? bork thought i was scum most of D1 (but he thought pie was scummier than me, presumably until pie claimed mason) and mollie also thought i was scum for most of D1 (read literally every post she wrote about me D1).

I don't care for the argument that they wouldn't have voted AD with a guilty on muffin since all three heads made it perfectly clear they would also vote ActionDan if the wagon gained speed, which it did

[img]herewegoagain.jpg[/img]

[zMuffinMan]

Otherwise, there is scum in the muffin/kagami/pie group even if I can't figure out which of them it is.

take this bork quote, for instance, and consider that pie had claimed mason and kagami looked pretty town, then consider the fact that mollie had me as a scum read for almost the entire D1, and it's not difficult to tell they talked about me over the night phase and concluded i'm scum. they were fine with unvoting and going after AD because they weren't sure of me. think about it. you hydra with mollie, you should know how she plays. do you think she'd back off like that if she was sure i'm scum?

[zMuffinMan]

like, how can you not see the obvious conversation?

bork: i still think there's scum in this group {pie, muffin, kagami}. pie's claimed mason, kagami looks town
mollie: i think muffin could be scum, too
*talking ensues*
voila

[zMuffinMan]

also see 788, 1694, 1770, 2056 or like... any post mollie ever mentioned me (i'm prob missing a few)

[zMuffinMan]

yeah, because i was obviously still a scum read, but you're suggesting she backed off from someone she knew is scum to pursue someone she thinks is scum.

[zMuffinMan]

and yeah i'm arguing that because the case on me is that lush investigated me.

[zMuffinMan]

you're not even arguing that your town and we're mislynching

also, again, how much of the thread are you reading?

This is entirely possible.

have you _ever_ seen mollie do that? like, ever? do you really think she'd let up on someone she knows is scum to go after someone she think might be scum?

[zMuffinMan]

have you read the last few pages?

[zMuffinMan]

@kat,

go play in the sandbox while the adults talk, k?

[zMuffinMan]

And you CRUCIALLY left out Majiffy's town read on you, and then him saying "His reads were all wrong"

right. and i also left out majiffy's scum read on you, majiffy's scum read on MC, majiffy's scum read on serene, majiffy's town read on gaiden, etc, and then him saying his reads were all wrong. but since mac was talking about bork and mollie's read on me, what's your point?

[zMuffinMan]

And you left out that you Know Majiffy would scream a guilty at the top of his lungs. My point's you're scum.

the first sentence seems incompatible with the second sentence. or what were you trying to say here?

GCBC and muffin are both scum

separate scumfaction/sk because Cabd and muffin aren't in the same one

uh huh. when / why did you start thinking one of us (me?) is SK again?

Also to confirm: Muffin, did dram go nowhere, or did the track fail?

i was told he visited no one. i would guess if my track failed i'd be told it failed or get no result

[zMuffinMan]

I'm thinking that as either town or SK, muffin would be truthful about the dram track

i don't think i'd waste an investigative ability on dram if i were scum rofl

[zMuffinMan]

there's also the idea that we could confirm his track results

is confirming my track results going to do anything to change your read on dram or kat? coz if it is, you should just work on the assumption that i'm telling the truth and go from there.

Meta: MOLLIE WOULDN'T DO THAT!

... but she wouldn't do what she did if she had a guilty on me, and the closest anyone has come to presenting a sane or logical argument for why she would do that is that mollie was playing with other people. but that doesn't explain why she/they were fine with voting AD

Any one know why they call it a safe-claim? Because its safe.... go figure. If the mod gives scum a safe-claim tracker, its because the claim isn't going to be able to be caught by mass-claim!

so you believe that not only is the ninja a red herring, but that somehow it makes sense for gif to include a ninja and give scum a tracker safeclaim? or do you think i'm SK now or something?

what's your picture of the setup, btw? coz i'm kind of interested in what you guys think of how much protective power town has

[zMuffinMan]

Dramonic had nothing worth stealing, so he is either a VT or he is a goon

were you told you're a vanilla cop or was this just an assumption on your part?

coz my theory about your role is that certain players in this game (perhaps regardless of role or alignment) have items you can take, and you get certain abilities or effects from those items. which sounds like a fun role, but is essentially useless for determining anything

[zMuffinMan]

i'm still thinking saki and one of gcbc/dram are good bets

where are you at with reads?

[zMuffinMan]

everything prohawk writes makes me cringe

[zMuffinMan]

I honestly don't do setup spec because I have been burned/have seen games burned more often than not because of it. I am sure that competent mods take setup spec into consideration when designing closed setup games to not make them favor one side or the other.

ok. i was specifically asking what you think of how much claimed protective power there is.

there's a claimed doc + a claimed macho nerfed-JK + a claimed inventor who can give BP + your BP claim. not to mention 1-shot bomb on top of this. there's far too much claimed anti-kill power in the game. have you guys not discussed this at all?

To answer your question, I wouldn't put it past GIF to use that for a scum-team advantage point

that doesn't even make sense - you're basically stretching to suggest that gif included ninja as a red herring and a scum tracker fake-claim to possibly give scum an advantage IF (and only if) the ninja is lynched.

[zMuffinMan]

muffin, on the off chance that GCBC flipped town, and you were king-made tonight, who would you lynch tomorrow?

saki or dram. then depending on their flips, go from there

[zMuffinMan]

I thought Unl. BP was the only one, but then I thought there were others.

what does this mean?

don't you think it would have been more beneficial as scum to claim it later when closer to being lynched/when there actually would be suspicion that you are still alive rather then at the moment Cabd claimed?

how would a bulletproof claim be beneficial as scum when you're close to being lynched? also, claiming early kind of defeats the later questions about why you're still alive so there's plenty of reason to do it as scum earlier rather than later - conversely, there's basically no reason to claim it as town earlier rather than later

btw, did you and cabd discuss whether to claim before he claimed it or did he just claim it without discussing it with you? and if you guys did discuss it, give me a run down of how the conversation went

[zMuffinMan]

Apparently he claimed because he felt like the claim would have helped to find scum, but didn't actually pan out?

did you guys didn't discuss the game / your role N1? because i was under the impression cabd thought the 1-shot strongman was a counter to your role

also wondering why cabd didn't mention that as a reason when he was probed about it earlier today

I still think you're scum but hey. If you're town use my flip to do a hard reset, and work with the others.

i (a) don't get why you're acting like you've already been lynched and (b) don't get why this would be your comment to me, because outside of the reads on each others, our reads are fairly similar, so why would you tell me to do a hard reset?

[zMuffinMan]

two targets that definitely cannot refute the claim

i can understand you maybe thinking this about my track on you, but considering i tracked dram prior to him claiming VT, this doesn't make sense.

who were also under no suspicion whatsoever

i don't care about general suspicion, i tracked people who i was suspicious of. also, regardless of my personal suspicions, i'm pretty sure this is wrong

To track a somewhat inactive player who is a shaky read (Dramonic)

dram wasn't inactive, he had 62 posts D1. he active lurked through D1 but he was far from inactive. nor was he a "shaky" read. also apart from the active lurking, his position on the varsoon wagon was part of the reason i thought he was suspicious

the claimed Oracle who partook in the counterwagon to lynch the first scum and was already pushing for the CoK wagon before the claim happened

first, you "partook" in the gaiden wagon as far as you were on it before it became a viable wagon and couldn't really jump off it after it did become viable. second, you were on the cok wagon again when it really wasn't a viable lynch and jumped off onto a wagon you had previously stated you weren't a fan of. you perfectly fit the model of distancing scum and your reason for jumping on the AD wagon made no sense whatsoever - it looked like opportunism.

also, really, why the fuck would i claim to have tracked you if i didn't actually track you?

[zMuffinMan]

literally just going to ignore kat if she keeps pushing the "dram was VT and a safe track target" angle

@kagami

i made a similar assumption to nacho so i don't see your issue with nacho's thinking

[zMuffinMan]

The track targets are kind of interesting, because they seem (to me) to be looking for a possible SK rather than mafia

i don't know how you got that when i very clearly stated why i tracked who i tracked :/

[zMuffinMan]

i'm not upset with you. if anything, i'll be laughing at you in the dead QT if you manage to get me lynched

[zMuffinMan]

tired. gonna do some reading after sleep then prob vote either saki or gcbc

[zMuffinMan]

what do you all of you have against me anyways

posts like this

A combination of "kise already semi-outed me so I can't run any cool gambits" paired with over-eager "Hey cool, strongman flip, I'm practically confirmed town suck it scum" and also general frustration at certain aspects of the game.

so prohawk said that you did this partially as some sort of gambit to find scum. what did that mean?

And then we get shitpile after shitpile of utter GARBAGE dropped on us. She replaces out, giving up. I almost do so as well, but I've got a policy against it

this feels like huge exaggeration - especially given mollie was the only one piling this "garbage" onto you and nothing mollie said was even that bad

And then guess what? more shitpiles. Shitpile after shitpile after shitpile

also what is this referring to? jaqen?