Touhou: Mafia in the Land of Fantasy (Game Over)

[Kagami]

Rule 12 infractions everywhere.

VOTE: pie

[Kagami]

...

@Tsukasa, I like calling myself town as town. It's sort of bizzare, but I enjoy it. I'm town, I'm town. It's like I'm saying "hey guys, I'm over here". I'm not sure where you've played with me(rather, I do but I don't want you to replace out), but If it was a while ago I know I had no scum games where I called myself town as scum. it was a bit of a trust tell at the time. I one time denied being recruited as cult though.

You are trying to abuse a meta you and Tsu know about. Being self-aware of only calling yourself town as town? Yeah I've seen scum do that.

Unvote;
Vote Remembrance

^might have a point here. If rem is telling the truth, it would be a trust tell, no?

[Kagami]

I think it still counts as a trust tell even if it's almost always accurate instead of 100% accurate, otherwise it would be easy to abuse

[Kagami]

I'm consulting on top of my normal job this month, so work on that is on hold until further notice. I'm only really using my database to quickly find games of players who don't have wikis.

I like kaze in this game so far, though I admit to not having read the 17 pages especially thoroughly. It looks like almost entirely like fluff. The case on remembrance slot feels like it might be legit.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Rem-slot

kaze, can you summarize case on ufo for me?

[Kagami]

o, you're voting pie. nvm

[Kagami]

The case on remembrance slot feels like it might be legit.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Rem-slot

Uh, what case?

@Tsukasa, I like calling myself town as town. It's sort of bizzare, but I enjoy it. I'm town, I'm town. It's like I'm saying "hey guys, I'm over here". I'm not sure where you've played with me(rather, I do but I don't want you to replace out), but If it was a while ago I know I had no scum games where I called myself town as scum. it was a bit of a trust tell at the time. I one time denied being recruited as cult though.

You are trying to abuse a meta you and Tsu know about. Being self-aware of only calling yourself town as town? Yeah I've seen scum do that.

Unvote;
Vote Remembrance

That one. Rem says he has a trust tell that he's only defied once that he calls himself town as town. He calls himself town and does not get modkilled.

[Kagami]

Ok, you're prob right, and the replace may even have been mod action.

Why bubba?

[Kagami]

The argument against bubba is that he made a joke about the IC and then said he didn't realize he was an IC?

[Kagami]

Then make this mistake again. I fucking dare you.

and this too?

[Kagami]

My initial thought was that town was more likely to skip over the posts form the mod

whereas scum was more likely to read it thoroughly

, but that theory was clearly flawed.

You all ought to be ashamed of yourselves.

A boy says much, without saying. A man sees the scum have no day chat. This is just so. With his own words, a boy condemns himself.

VOTE: Morph the cat

Please tell me you're not going to continue posting like this -_-

[Kagami]

The severe lack of nothing in Kagami's ISO is alarming. I think the vote on Remembrance is bullshit given Rem can't defend himself. And poor, considering it doesn't really make sense.

Lack of nothing? I do see your points and agree. I'm wary of her, too. Mainly because I don't know what scum-Kagami looks like yet. This might be her scum debut.

Still town every game. Rem's replacement probably proves her town.

[Kagami]

I really hate that scummy nom.

My incomplete assessment of the gamestate is that there are only a few lines of argument that make sense:

Mac on kagami: not enough content, can't deny that
Jaqen on morph: cadb slip
lush on bubba: Various minor tells, listed in 463
morph on Pie: Srs biz early posting nonsense
kise on rem: kise-tsukasa interaction

Of all these, my favorite by far is kise's point, which is both original and accurate. Now, whether or not it's indicative of rem's alignment is a different matter. Rem is either legit invoking a trust tell (and yes, this is a trust tell), or she's using a false tell to push her towniness. Hard to say which, but it makes kise very much town to me. Kise's response to my little flip-flop on rem is very nice, imo, making him a fairly strong townread to me.

The morph thing on pie is pretty weak, I admit that I sheeped it because wagons are fun and I hadn't read the thread much yet on my opening post.

Your argument on bubba is consistent and effortful. I think there's potential for a lot of confbias there, so I was hesitant to hop on. It feels like you got the scum tinglies, and then fit the evidence to that read. The gun post was absurdly inappropriate, but not alignment indicative. I think you're prob-town. Bubba leans scum for this.

I'm running through jaqen's argument now. I'm actually not sure I follow. Cadb says that he assumes town doesn't read the mod posts as carefully as scum, which seems silly but whatever, and misses that bubba was making a joke. He says "but you all missed it, so shame on you." So the argument is that Cabd is identifying that one of the people he's addressing is scum (which implies himself scum)? There's the off chance that he just thought that everyone but he himself missed it, I suppose...
That's the jist of it, no?

[Kagami]

You is lush, but it took longer than I thought it would to type that.

[Kagami]

Actually, jaqen's point is pretty good... Why is bubba the partner?

[Kagami]

I would guess that's a reference to 197, with "we" meaning the town as a group. Doesn't seem likely that the mystery other would be in a scum QT given the nature of the statement.

[Kagami]

Wasn't terribly obvious to me either, but it does make sense.

Cadb says that town doesn't read the mod-post, but scum do. Then says to the group of people, many who seemed to have missed the IC announcement, "but you all missed it, shame on you." This doesn't make sense from town-frame, because if everyone there is town, then this is perfectly consistent with the first statement. He expresses surprise, though, suggesting that he's observed that scum also have failed to read the mod-post.

[Kagami]

If it's true, it implies kaze or lush as partner. I was kind of townreading both =\

[Kagami]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Morph

[Kagami]

...

Spoiler: Kagami

I'm consulting on top of my normal job this month, so work on that is on hold until further notice. I'm only really using my database to quickly find games of players who don't have wikis.

I like kaze in this game so far, though I admit to not having read the 17 pages especially thoroughly. It looks like almost entirely like fluff. The case on remembrance slot feels like it might be legit.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Rem-slot

kaze, can you summarize case on ufo for me?

I kind of don't like this. She says she hasn't read thouroghly, but still feels the case is legit.

She then keeps going on about the trust tell.

Words against Jaqen.

I really hate that scummy nom.

My incomplete assessment of the gamestate is that there are only a few lines of argument that make sense:

Mac on kagami: not enough content, can't deny that
Jaqen on morph: cadb slip
lush on bubba: Various minor tells, listed in 463
morph on Pie: Srs biz early posting nonsense
kise on rem: kise-tsukasa interaction

Of all these, my favorite by far is kise's point, which is both original and accurate. Now, whether or not it's indicative of rem's alignment is a different matter.

Rem is either legit invoking a trust tell (and yes, this is a trust tell), or she's using a false tell to push her towniness.

Hard to say which, but it makes kise very much town to me. Kise's response to my little flip-flop on rem is very nice, imo, making him a fairly strong townread to me.

still pushing trust tell.

Cadb says that town doesn't read the mod-post, but scum do. Then says to the group of people, many who seemed to have missed the IC announcement, "but you all missed it, shame on you." This doesn't make sense from town-frame, because if everyone there is town, then this is perfectly consistent with the first statement. He expresses surprise, though,

suggesting that he's observed that scum also have failed to read the mod-post.

Expresses concern that Morph could be scum, but also say that they could be town.

And then this.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Morph

It seems to me that they're trying to fit in.

...

The trust tell remains one of the more solid things that has happened this game, and I like solid things. I really don't care if other people don't like that I'm calling it what it is. The question to my mind is only whether it's being invoked, or exploited.

In the post you quote, I don't call morph town at any point. You're misreading this to make a case.

I'm willing to think that cadb was just chiding everyone for their failure to read as carefully as he does, but that's also weird. How did he miss that bubba's point was an obvious joke? It suggests he wanted to townslip someone.

Sadface at kaze.

[Kagami]

Not a fan of the read, as I'm sure you can imagine~

[Kagami]

That's the one >_<;

[Kagami]

It's not my fault you rolled scum! D:

Nope, still town. You should join my "always town" club.

oh wow quote fail

hi kagumi!

hi?

[Kagami]

Didn't see the request, what are you asking for, exactly?

[Kagami]

Def longer than almost any post I've made, but I've been playing a lot of catch-up since I've overcommitted a bit to games and this game has had a lot to read.

[Kagami]

Lying about that would be silly as either alignment. The answer is that I don't think I've done that in any completed game, I usually prefer shorter posts so that people actually read them.

[Kagami]

I don't think I'm acting that differently, tbqh.

[Kagami]

...

Jaqen: What are your thought on Kagami, tsukasa, and dramonic

Was this necessary to ask? I thought he was pretty clear there.

[Kagami]

If you say so.

Can you explain your current vote to me? It feels odd. You come in talking about Kise on Rem and how you really like the points made there. You liked lush's push on bubba, too. But a couple posts later you just kinda decide morph is a better focus despite finding the case relatively confusing. Coincidentally, morph's wagon was gaining considerable traction at the time, so it would be an opportune moment for scum to hop on and ride the wave, so to speak. Can you talk me through this?

I'm not voting you.

The case on morph is nice and compact. Jaqen's direct interpretation is probably not quite right, but it's hard not to read the exchange as cadb looking to put a townslip on bubba, either for his own town-cred or bubba's.

[Kagami]

In case anybody cares, that townsided as fuck micro is officially speakable about now.

~BC

so talk about it! I am listening.

Kagami and Kaze were both town in that game. And Kagami was all ~effort~ and it's not really here this time and I dunno what to make of it. (And Kaze self lynched day one lol but bygones, bygones) It's a short read. Micro 273: http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=34836 (I took over for rach as mod)

~BC

I didn't want to be ~effort~ and was annoyed that I had to be effort and the town was just sitting there. Day 2 was long and stupid; I expected to say "I'm the JK, delta was in jail and we got a no kill" and see him lynched within a few hours instead of several days.

[Kagami]

oh god. this is multi-ball isn't it? I hate multiball.

Seems unlikely, given that we're "good girls," I would be pretty surprised if it's not a good girl/bad girl dichotomy.

I don't see varsoon scum at all.

[Kagami]

I've been voting morph-slot, not rem-slot

That's a breadcrumb? What's the point of a breadcrumb like that?

I don't understand this at all. A bomb is incredibly powerful, and you were in no immediate danger of a lynch; why would you claim that? Even if you were in danger, why would you crumb and claim bomb rather than something that would draw the nightkill?

[Kagami]

oops

UNVOTE:
VOTE: GCBC

[Kagami]

What's the difference between a bomb and a 1-shot bomb?

[Kagami]

Anyway, this claim is obviously fake. You say your role pm is "1-shot Bomb," but there's no interpretation of the role bomb that can be anything more than one shot. So are you fakeclaiming town or really bad scum?

[Kagami]

all "bomb"s involve you dying. There's no way yukari would add "one-shot" to it.

[Kagami]

I don't think it's fake =\

[Kagami]

Fake-claiming something else would have been so much better though... or even nothing at all

[Kagami]

The only skepticism I have for the claim is that it's an incredibly swingy role. It's very easy to imagine that he could have set up a strong fake-claim that would draw the nightkill, and the setup reviewers would have to have been wary about it.

[Kagami]

Swingy roles like that are generally bad mojo. If you had come out with a believable fake-claim that would draw the night-kill, then you'd have killed a scum. That's very powerful. Instead, it will be useless. The balance of the setup in large part would depend on the use of this role.

@GCBC: I am presently playing with nati.

[Kagami]

No, Cadb is correct. Nati is very fond of oddball setups, and balances by fun rather than any objective sense of how often alignments should win. I didn't realize he co-designed this.

p-edit: FG balances strictly...

[Kagami]

Hey I just woke up. Gonna do stuff because I know exactly what to say regarding the claim of bubba and possibly Kagami.

I'm assuming this means "what to say regarding [the claim of bubba] and [possibly kagami]," rather than "what to say regarding the claim of [bubba and possibly kagami]." The latter would be your misunderstanding.

[Kagami]

...
Looked up Bubba's claim. The character fits an enabler of some sort, or possibly a vig based on the gun-arm. Certainly not a bomb.

Plus the bomb claim fits into the narrative of EM-player fakeclaims, since bomb is a fairly reliable fakeclaim for scum, as it doesn't take any action and also can't safely be vigged to be sure.

Add to that the incredibly shoddy "breadcrumbs" and we've got a scum fakeclaiming very poorly.
...

Bomb would actually be a very fitting role for okuu, but the breadcrumbs aren't real, obviously; no one would breadcrumb bomb. I don't think that's what is going on here.

[Kagami]

I need a break from this game

mod: V/LA till wednesday

I'm playing like complete shit and I need to reset. I'll join another large when someone teaches me how to actually play larges = =

This is a pretty believable follow up though. It fits with the shame of having missed something like that. I'm not sure the shame would be felt -only- by town though. At any rate his break makes sense now and I'm surprised some people gave him heat over it.

I don't feel too strongly about pie one way or another, but this particular bit is more believable for scum than town to me. Town is expected to be wrong and make mistakes, and this would be easy to play off. Scum would be more likely to think they made a critical error here.

The mistake itself is nullish. It's reasonably believable to be confused by the replacements.

p-edit: agreed on PGO treatment.

[Kagami]

muffin was being sarcastic. The okuu fight is a series of explosions and klaxons and your head aspolde.

[Kagami]

...
Hey weird thing: Kagami said Rem is town somewhere along the lines and still is yet to move her vote. Why? Probably because she's scum.
...

Except that I moved my vote ages ago and didn't realize yukari hadn't counted it (though I'm not sure why she ignored the unvote part)

Not that it would matter, I don't see why a person's vote needs to follow their opinion every post. You vote when you actually want someone lynched, not when you're worried that someone will call you on your vote not corresponding to your top scum-read or whatever.

[Kagami]

Katarina is referring to a specific thing that we mentioned in micro 273. I thought Kaze's reaction there was fairly reasonable and consistent.

[Kagami]

Will the Bastard of Lush kindly remove his nailless finger from a man's arse? A man feels it now. A man thinks he knows why there are too many scum in this game. A decent portion of scum are playing the strategy of too obvious to be scum ~ therefor not scum because site meta dictates players get free passes for thus. An excellent strategy as that make all who see things differently look scummy. A man doesn't think this is MB either the claims of thinking thus are just another facet to the strategy to cover for their "thoughts" of too many scum.

A man now reads these ones as scum

GCBC
Varsoon
Kaze
Lush
Katarina

This is def wrong on varsoon, he's town and I'm quite sure of it.
I still think lush is town. The "we have to lynch one of these three wagons bit" falls deep into the uncanny valley of scumminess.

Trying to figure out why messiah is scum now.

[Kagami]

This is def wrong on varsoon, he's town and I'm quite sure of it.

"Quite sure?" I like "Quite sure." Tell me more about it.

I've played a fair number of games with varsoon, just as I've played several with you. Experiential meta tells me varsoon is town and you may well be scum.

[Kagami]

I've played a fair number of games with varsoon, just as I've played several with you. Experiential meta tells me varsoon is town and you may well be scum.

That was underwhelming.

So what do you think about tsukasa, my adorable sister?

[Kagami]

Experiential meta tells me varsoon is town

Which part? Elaborate please.

~GC

General tone, certain stances and viewpoints that vary markedly. I can't really be too specific without talking about ongoing games.

Too scummy to be scum, but being scum all the same. A man said Kat is distancing from the other 4 on the list. A boy is still a stand alone.

lol

So what do you think about tsukasa, my adorable sister?

I think it's a Saki alt.

Last I checked they were using a lot of words to basically say they were going with the flow. Eh. Null-scum. You?

She's not a saki alt. I meant that she said the same thing as I just did without attracting your scrutiny. I agree to Null or null-scum, though.

[Kagami]

Jesus, that's a long post. I'd say scum-varsoon.

[Kagami]

And I appear to be right.

[Kagami]

I could have looked that up faster than reading it, so I'm not sure that was an especially good test >.>

[Kagami]

Took very little time, there were links throughout.

[Kagami]

I hadn't even considered the wall post in this thread. =\

[Kagami]

Jesus, that's a long post. I'd say scum-varsoon.

A girl posted at 20 a man's time

And I appear to be right.

A girl also posted at 8:20 a man's time

Because I submitted, went back and clicked the link, then submitted again having checked.

[Kagami]

For bonus points, I was town inside the Trust Fund hydra; varsoon was scum that game. Go look at his case on me being scum there.

~BC

I see the wiggle thing...

[Kagami]

Ugh, this makes no sense. I was not in that game, the quote wall meant nothing special to me nor did the wriggle thing. As far as I was concerned, the rest of varsoon's posts are very consistent with his town game.

[Kagami]

You think both varsoon and kaze are scum, dram?

[Kagami]

You think both varsoon and kaze are scum, dram?

Yes

Don't you think they've buddied a little too hard for that to be likely?

[Kagami]

Be we need rope, not ice cream.

[Kagami]

VOTE: GCBC

Your conclusion of Kagami is??

~GC

This continues to bother me and is more or less why my vote has been parked. It feels like real disappointment that Jaqen didn't turn on me.

[Kagami]

cough*Kanako*cough

suwako 4ever

[Kagami]

cough*Kanako*cough

suwako 4ever

This is not a flavor claim, btw. I am not suwako

[Kagami]

While I agree that kaze's behavior is not what I have seen in the past as town-kaze, I'm beginning to think it's because of the largeness of the game rather than the content of his role PM

[Kagami]

He hasn't been

that

insulting, has he? Maybe I missed something, but it seemed pretty civil on top of the inherent sillyness in the self-imposed post restriction.

[Kagami]

I'm wondering if the above image is photoshop, puppetry, or taxodermy.

[Kagami]

Varsoon, everyone with sense knows you aren't scum. Let's counter-wagon.

[Kagami]

And space dandy seemed horrible from the 10 minutes I was willing to give it.

[Kagami]

Are you town, kaze?

[Kagami]

Pie's probably telling the truth, so is varsoon. Bubba's claim is suspect. Didn't notice the GCBC crumb.

Kaze is referring to his own suicide in mini 273.

I'm down to sheep the gaiden wagon.

p-edit: guess he did.

[Kagami]

Why would you crumb stump at all?

[Kagami]

Who said I'm claiming or crumbing stump?

I'm just saying if he thoguht I was why the fuck would he out them?

Ok, I was going to say, crumbing stump is even worse the "crumbing" bomb.

Crumbing is stupid in general, and shouldn't be done.

[Kagami]

Baaaaaaa

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Gaiden

p-edit: you have to crumb your target, not your role for hider

[Kagami]

Spoiler: anime

All I got out of space dandy was boob jokes. I was hoping it would be like cowboy bebop crossed with star driver.

I loved uchouten kazoku and mushishi, as well as xxxholic
hanasaku iroha was beautiful
some of the high school rom-coms are cute (toradora, chuunibyou, and now nisekoi)
I like some of the horror anime (another and higurashi were fun)
death note (first 2 seasons) and lelouche were very fun
star driver is fabulous, as is kuroshitsuji
and a few select fantasy/adventurey anime

[Kagami]

Are you calling him waynegg instead of jaqen just to annoy him?

[Kagami]

Looks like we have impressively differing tastes, varsoon. We only really agree on the miyazaki movies and cowboy bebop >_<

[Kagami]

It's clearly a treestump breadcrumb!

[Kagami]

I hope you caught the beauty and the beast reference there, gcbc

[Kagami]

Who are you pushing and why? Last I recall was a weak scumread on tsukasa

[Kagami]

You buy bubba's crumb?

Yes
It's so completely fucking stupid, I don't think he'd have been able to not claim scum if he actually was.

The crumb is fake. The question is whether he is:

A) Townie worried that his claim won't be bought, and faking a crumb to make it more believable
B) Scum worried that his claim won't be bought, and faking a crumb to make it more believable
C) Townie with a role that is not bomb, but who wants people to think he's bomb for some reason or another

[Kagami]

unvote yourself, varsoon.

[Kagami]

o, missed that.

[Kagami]

The lack of activity in this game makes me think the scumteam is happy with the wagons as they are.

[Kagami]

VOTE: GCBC

A man thinks the rest if the town should hop on.

I don't really agree with this anymore. GCBC has a good shot of being town, and if he is, he's good to keep around.


Varsoon wagon is bad because he's generally useful/fun as town, and he's not scum.

Gaiden wagon is much better because he has a chance of being scum, and is being useless as town.

Dan wagon, idk. I think he's town, but I don't have much experience with him and haven't looked into his meta at all.

[Kagami]

hey zmuffin if you hop on dan it's only 4 votes

Gaiden wagon is much better because he has a chance of being scum, and is being useless as town.

this is exactly why I think gaiden is an easy lynch for scum to push and that scum are jumping on it as a counter to varsoon. he's being a giant lurkfuck yeah but he's not even around to defend against his wagon and it's really easy to push lynches on lurkers

can you answer my question plz 2264

I kind of agree with your point, but I'm feeling nearly certain that varsoon is town, so it's hard for me to believe that the gaiden counterwagon is scum-driven.

[Kagami]

I buy the oracle claim, but vig seems impossible. Kaze was almost certainly the nightkill, and serene makes no sense as a vig kill.

I think the bad girls got an extra nightkill.

[Kagami]

strongman encryptor seems like a terrible bus; why would scum give up a one-shot PR and daychat? Surely they have a weaker role amongst them, and there's no way they couldn't arrange for gaiden to evade the lynch, especially since they had daychat.

I think the gaiden wagon is pretty much all town.

[Kagami]

I don't understand why anyone would follow that site meta.

[Kagami]

Anyway, I'm pretty much down for a CoK or dram lynch.

[Kagami]

I performed an action last night that likely affected other players in a sort of obvious way and would indicate that my ability is town.

[Kagami]

Flavor on the kill is a mod-slip, imo. Bad girls got two kills.

[Kagami]

"So everyone here? No? Two girls are missing? Well, unfortunately, the "bad" girls decided that they are too boring for this next meeting."

I don't think this is ambiguous in any way.

[Kagami]

Side-note re: reimu's flip, it would be funny if muffin's opening statement was (coincidentally) correct.

[Kagami]

Anyway, the better argument is that it no vig would kill either serene or kaze over players like dramonic, cok, etc given the reimu flip, unless said vig were also huffing paint while submitting her night kill action.

[Kagami]

Occam's razor gives you a high prior for vig + 1 NK than 2 NKs, but when evidence points to the latter, you have to weigh them appropriately.

[Kagami]

anyway, it doesn't really matter. Let's lynch dram or the CoK

[Kagami]

If there is scum on the gaiden wagon, I'm not seeing muffin as radically more scummy than bubba or messiah

[Kagami]

if the above is roughly correct, we have:

one or two scum in {kise, amaranth, tsukasa}, maybe one in {bubba, muffin, messiah, saki}, two in {AD, dram, mac, CoK}. I'm far happier shooting into the third barrel rather than the second, though the first barrel looks somewhat attractive too.

If there's an SK, it has to be kat, but otherwise she's town. Pie is town because non-town pie would have been CC'd, (no idea why anyone is entertaining that possibility).

[Kagami]

VOTE: CoK

[Kagami]

Anyway, for serious, I'm spent and busy.
If I'm not around, don't let the jerkbutts trick you into lynching me.

I tried to kill you N1, GCBC. Didn't work.

How is GCBC confirmed?

Who did you re-direct? Given I'm unlimited bulletproof, whoever you re-directed is confirmed to not have made the nightkill last night.

Why does it matter if you are bulletproof?

[Kagami]

@lush, AD is more likely scum than muffin to me, but I still think there are better options.

[Kagami]

only pie and jaqen are conftown.

I suspect evidence might arise that makes varsoon conftown, but can't be sure.

Your "hammer" is the nullest element of the gaiden wagon, since it wasn't actually a hammer. Varsoon's vote on himself was younger than Serene's vote on gaiden, so gaiden would have been lynched even if you hadn't done that.

[Kagami]

I don't think Gaiden wagon is all town, at least the first 3-4 votes but not all conf town. Paranoia, yes. I don't like Kagami's stance on this, you're over simplifying the game because of the lynch.

What I'm saying is very straightforward: the best place to look for scum is on the varsoon wagon. It doesn't matter that there might be a scum on the gaiden lynch or off the wagon, there are likely multiple scum on varsoon and it's a small suspect pool to lynch from.

[Kagami]

btw, for those without flavor knowledge:

Yuyuko as Oracle makes amazing sense, though it's not immediately obvious. Kat's claim is very likely true unless she was given a very good fake-claim.

[Kagami]

Also, the reasoning for yuyuko as oracle is barely noted in the (english) touhou wiki, so it could only be a mod-given fake-claim.

[Kagami]

And Gaiden's opening post strongly implies to me that scum weren't given fake-claims, so Kat is probably a Good Girl Oracle or SK Oracle with the former seeming much more plausible

[Kagami]

Caught up from phone. I'm pretty sure actiondan targeted serene, not CoK. Need pie to confirm tho.

Waiting for this. How would pie confirm?

[Kagami]

I like cok better than dan, but I'm ok with a dan lynch.

[Kagami]

I thought quote changing was varsoon's thing -_-

[Kagami]

What's not to like about the oracle claim, jaqen? If she doesn't know touhou well, as she claims, then she got incredibly lucky with a very flavor-appropriate claim.

[Kagami]

Why Yuyuko is an oracle: It's not mentioned much on the English wiki, but yuyuko is bestest friends with yukari. Yukari knew yuyuko even when yuyuko was alive (a thousand+ years ago, presumably), and they were friends even then.

It makes a lot of sense that yuyuko would have the ability to ask her friend questions about the game.

[Kagami]

Maybe I should've thought my question through.. I'm sorry.

Yes, even "is bubba a bomb" would have been a better question, imo.

[Kagami]

Maybe I should've thought my question through.. I'm sorry.

Yes, even "is bubba a bomb" would have been a better question, imo.

Oracle, modified whatever to make it that I can ask the host any question regarding the game. Only answerable with yes or no, and can't ask questions based on alignment.

I'm glad you see why my question is legal, but I find it interesting that you've tied your role so closely to your alignment here.

[Kagami]

It's not. It's clearly a legal question, no less so than "Has bubbajack8 lied about substantive information this game?" which would also be legal.

[Kagami]

I'm sorry have you heard of a scum bomb? To me that question is alignment indicative.

You buy bubba's crumb?

Yes
It's so completely fucking stupid, I don't think he'd have been able to not claim scum if he actually was.

The crumb is fake. The question is whether he is:

A) Townie worried that his claim won't be bought, and faking a crumb to make it more believable
B) Scum worried that his claim won't be bought, and faking a crumb to make it more believable
C) Townie with a role that is not bomb, but who wants people to think he's bomb for some reason or another

The upper quote indicates that C is not the case, which was the case that I had thought to be the most likely if bubba=town.

[Kagami]

Bubba, the purpose of the restriction is that it is not a straight-up one-shot daycop. "Is bubba bomb?" would be totally fine for numerous reasons.

I'm still wondering GCBC: Why did you claim bulletproof?

[Kagami]

Varsoon's claim is provable if anyone targetted either Jaqen or GCBC, though it would mean outing PRs, which I'd rather not do.

[Kagami]

Actually, only if they targetted GCBC.

[Kagami]

Anyone who targeted GCBC would have their action affected by my ability if and only if Varsoon is telling the truth.

[Kagami]

I'm interested in what tsukasa-slot thinks before we get too crazy. I'm also curious if anyone targeted GCBC and got an expected result.

[Kagami]

AD looking at the cok last night would explain why he was lusting after the cok so much today, actually

Vote: the CoK

Since we're doing it on purpose now:

Let's put a nice hemp ring around the CoK and jerk it until it's lifeless.

[Kagami]

Dan's posts today are pretty convincing

[Kagami]

I just find it odd how people have discussed suspicion at CoK, and he claims now with a report on CoK

Where's the oddness? He wanted to see some properly hung CoK from his very first post today.

[Kagami]

Any thoughts on your slot, nacho?

[Kagami]

Assuming CoK is scum, I will not be using my ability on AD.

[Kagami]

VOTE: muffin

This might be a quick game.

[Kagami]

btw, 2644 def does not refer to me.

[Kagami]

He thought I was the 2644 person, but given his ability, I am not.

[Kagami]

One nightkill this time around: successful protection or odd-night vig, I wonder.

p-edit: you're a goofball, jaqen.

[Kagami]

If there is scum on the gaiden wagon, I'm not seeing muffin as radically more scummy than bubba or messiah

You will.

Anyway you can keep that town card with my blessing.

[Kagami]

@Kagami: Probably because it fools people that think like you're thinking (not saying you're dumb for thinking it, but this ground has been tread pretty heavily in mafia discussion over the years). It's a high risk high reward play.

p-edit: you have been issued a temporary town permit.

[Kagami]

I don't see how it's in any way unclear that he got a guilty on muffin.

[Kagami]

I think 2441 and 2442 refer to the night action that some townie did toward lush.

The town permit thing clearly comes from him thinking I'm the person who interacted with him that night.

[Kagami]

UNVOTE:

only because I want Dan's report before the lynch.

[Kagami]

either way, may as well tell us what he did.

[Kagami]

k,
VOTE: muffin

[Kagami]

VC 2.4

ActionDan (L-4):

pieguyn | Kise | bubbajack8 | Varsoon | Lush Life | Amaranth

Varsoon (L-9):

dramonic

dramonic (L-9):

Messiah Complex

Katarina LeBlanc (L-9):

Jaqen Hghar

The Chamber of Kittens (L-7):

ActionDan | Kagami | Katarina LeBlanc

Not Voting:

zMuffinMan, The Chamber of Kittens, Tsukasa, Saki, Mac, GoodCop_BadCop

With 18 alive, it takes 10 votes to lynch.

The deadline is Feburary 4, 12:00 AM EST.
Deadline Counter: (expired on 2014-02-04 01:00:00)

This votecouht is v. Important!

why?

[Kagami]

Didn't you just hammer?

[Kagami]

aa, still L-1

[Kagami]

I'm not a motivator. The town card was clearly a reference to the interaction he alluded to in 2644. I responded in a way that made it look like I might have done it (which I thought might be the case, I'm still surprised no one did anything toward GCBC night 1), but given lush was a cop who obviously investigated muffin, there is no way my ability was actually the one that affected lush.

[Kagami]

I don't see how that's necessary, given we already have a solid lynch lined up.

[Kagami]

Who do you think lush investigated?

[Kagami]

Except poor kaze.

[Kagami]

he told me it was a follow .-.

I used it on zmuffin N2 and GIF never sent me a result PM. I'm checking to see what the hell happened

Sorry Pie, I did it. T_T


I didn't think you would have an action.

[Kagami]

I roleblocked and rolestopped pie last night to protect her =\

[Kagami]

It's a full rolestop, blocks nightkills and even activated strongman according to gif

[Kagami]

Used it on jaqen night 1, which presumably varsoon redirected to GCBC (I asked gif about priority here too, redirect happens first). Any investigation on GCBC should have failed as a result

[Kagami]

That's not how rolestop works, mac

[Kagami]

That's not how rolestop works, mac

Enlighten me.

Rolestopping is the opposite of roleblocking, it stops all actions directed at the person instead of those coming from them, my role is like a jailkeeper, but I prevent investigations and other things like that, so it's only really useful to protect people who have no active abilities and are known innocent.

[Kagami]

Flavor claiming, since I've already roleclaimed: I'm China.

[Kagami]

Muffin has claimed Aya (very reasonable tracker)
I have a good idea who kise is
Kat is Yuyuko (very plausible oracle)
You are Remilia (not sure why a kill-cop, governor or redirector would make way more sense)
Varsoon is Tewi
bubba is Okuu

That's what I remember so far. I'm curious about GCBC's

[Kagami]

I don't think Lush crumbed a target nor do I think it would make sense to decide and stick with a target given the Gaiden flip. Lush made it abundantly clear that the investigation target was muffin, the only argument for muffin's innocence is the possibility that muffin was framed in some way or another, or lush was redirected to a scum.

There's no way muffin was framed in favor of someone on Varsoon's wagon, to my mind, so we'd have to believe lush was redirected. I don't think this happened because I see no reason to think Lush was scum, and Varsoon has already claimed a redirection role.

[Kagami]

EBWOP: no reason to think Lush was cop

[Kagami]

Where?

[Kagami]

Also waiting to see if dram will confirm no action on n1

[Kagami]

That's a pretty obtuse statement. I read it and certainly didn't think it meant cop; I interpreted that as him wanting to lynch MC and believing the scumflip would vindicate his position.

It certainly doesn't mean that he investigated MC, or he'd have surely said something about changing his mind on MC (or pushed for an MC lynch). Unless varsoon is lying about his role, scum would have to have some king of ability which, if it targets an investigator, causes them to get erroneous results. I'm more inclined to believe the simpler explanation.

[Kagami]

I think odd-night vig is quite likely, if there wasn't a blocked kill.

[Kagami]

^thought so

[Kagami]

I'm really curious who might be bulletproof, though. I'd guess Kaguya, Mokou, or Yoshika?

[Kagami]

There are useful roles still hidden, and most of the outed roles have expended their shots. I don't see a reason to massclaim.

[Kagami]

Masochist is your role name? Do you know why you have that role?

[Kagami]

i.e. why your flavor is appropriate for the role?

[Kagami]

Interesting, yours is the only role so far that's reliant on doujin for the flavor->role, but it's believable enough.

[Kagami]

Which reminds me, GiF srsly screwed up by not having Sanae be the IC (you're a good girl, Sanae~)

[Kagami]

The only value I see is that

A) Based on Gaiden's opening post, scum likely don't have fake-claims (or at least not fake flavor-claims)
B) flavor and roles match fairly well

So it could easily be possible to infer a scummy role from flavor claims

[Kagami]

Def agree with that, but sakuya ninja makes perfect sense.

[Kagami]

Btw, why do you think missing the motivate was a big deal?

[Kagami]

I'd be surprised if it gave you a third shot though

[Kagami]

There remains the outside possibility that Muffin is an SK, or that the Ninja was a red herring.

I'm fine with letting him live, since it does seem odd that there's no CC, but we're accumulating an obnoxiously long list of people I don't want to see making it to lylo.

[Kagami]

Ehhhh... I really don't think there's any reasonable argument that lush didn't investigate you, muffin. He clearly did not crumb an innocent, and came out guns blazing anti-muffin despite only having a weak rationalization for his suspicion.

It's not crazy that he jumped off the wagon to lynch the CoK either, though it does indicate that he didn't investigate Dan. He saw that he wasn't getting support for muffin and was fine with lynching an alternative guilty, knowing that his potential flip should result in a muffin lynch anyway, and maybe getting a second investigation with luck.

The pro-muffin argument relies on the investigation being tampered with, not Lush sucking at cop-crumbing.

[Kagami]

Well, I already claimed~

[Kagami]

Nachomamma8
King Henry
Mac
Messiah Complex (Desperado + FormerFish) [H]
dramonic

[Kagami]

Nightkill was obvious and non-indicative

If muffin is scum, then it would be obvious to the scumteam that lush was a cop with a guilty on him.
If muffin was framed somehow, the scum would obviously know that lush was a cop and had already crumbed enough for the frame to be effective.

Either way, lush was worm food.

[Kagami]

Can anyone give me a summary of everything because im not reading 127 pages (anytime soon at least)

You're claiming.

[Kagami]

Quickly, too.

[Kagami]

K. Here's a tl;dr

Two main wagons day 1: Varsoon and Gaiden.

Gaiden's wagon barely pulls ahead at deadline desptire varsoon self-voting, flips scum by plurality.

day 2: Lush crazy pushes muffin and dan, Dan wagon accumulates. Dan claims kill-cop with guilty on CoK. CoK lynched and flips scum.

day 3: Lush dies, flipped cop. Wagon on muffin forms, led by GCBC. He's currently L-1, I think (maybe L-2, not sure). Muffin has claimed tracker without CC, where we'd expect a CC because CoK was a ninja.

[Kagami]

despite, not desptire.

[Kagami]

Conf-town:

Pie
Jaqen


Very very near conf-town:

Kise
Me! (I can explain exactly why, if anyone doubts this)
ActionDan
Unidentified Motivator


Can't think of anyone else, but maybe I'm forgetting something.

[Kagami]

Important wagons:

Spoiler: Day 1 Lynch

VC Day 1 Final

SXTLHGaiden (L-3):

Kazekirimaru | Katerina LeBlanc | Kagami | Messiah Complex | zMuffinman | bubbajack8 | Serene | Saki

Lynched

Varsoon (L-4):

ActionDan | dramonic | Mac | Lush Life | GoodCop_BadCop | The Chamber of Kittens | Varsoon

bubbajack8 (L-8):

Kise | SXTLHGaiden | Tsukasa

Action Dan (L-10):

pieguyn

Messiah Complex (L-10):

Amaranth

GoodCop_BadCop (L-10):

Jaqen Hghar

Not Voting:

With 21 alive, it takes 11 votes to lynch.

Deadline: 1/18/2014 12:00 AM EDT
Counter: (expired on 2014-01-18 01:00:00)

Gaiden is V/LA until 1/21.

Spoiler: Day 2 AD wagon

VC 2.6

ActionDan (L-1):

pieguyn | Kise | bubbajack8 | Varsoon | Lush Life | Amaranth | Messiah Complex | Katarina LeBlanc | Mac

Varsoon (L-9):

dramonic

Katarina LeBlanc (L-9):

Jaqen Hghar

The Chamber of Kittens (L-8):

ActionDan | Kagami

Not Voting:

zMuffinMan, The Chamber of Kittens, Tsukasa, Saki, GoodCop_BadCop

With 18 alive, it takes 10 votes to lynch.

The deadline is Feburary 4, 12:00 AM EST.
Deadline Counter: (expired on 2014-02-04 01:00:00)

Amaranth will be replaced.

Spoiler: Day 2 Lynch

VC 2.8

ActionDan (L-6):

Kise | Varsoon | Messiah Complex | Mac

Katarina LeBlanc (L-9):

Jaqen Hghar

The Chamber of Kittens (Lynch):

ActionDan | Kagami | zMuffinMan | GoodCop_BadCop | pieguyn | bubbajack8 | Katarina LeBlanc | dramonic | Saki | Nachomamma8

Not Voting:

The Chamber of Kittens, King Henry, Lush Life

With 18 alive, it takes 10 votes to lynch.

The deadline is Feburary 4, 12:00 AM EST.
Deadline Counter: (expired on 2014-02-04 01:00:00)

Spoiler: Current Muffin wagon

VC 3.4

zMuffinMan (L-2):

GoodCop_BadCop | bubbajack8 | Varsoon | Kagami | pieguyn | Messiah Complex | Katarina LeBlanc

GoodCop_BadCop (L-8):

Jaqen Hghar

Not Voting:

zMuffinMan, Mac, Sakura Hana, dramonic, Saki, Nachomamma8, ActionDan, Kise

With 16 alive, it takes 9 votes to lynch.

The deadline is February 11, 3:30 PM EST.
Countdown: (expired on 2014-02-11 15:30:00)

[Kagami]

Claims list (top of my head):

Muffin- Aya: 2-shot tracker (dram did nothing n1, kat nothing n2)
Kise- Nitori: Inventor (gave track to pie n1, unknown n2)
Kat- Yuyuko: Oracle (We are not in multiball, possible SK)
AD- Remilia: 2-shot kill cop (CoK killed n1, Nacho has not killed)
Varsoon- Tewi: 1-shot redirector (redirected actions on Jaqen n1 to GCBC)
GCBC- Tensh: Bulletproof
Kagami- China: Gatekeeper (RBed and RSed Jaqen n1, Pie n2)
Jaqen- Patchy: IC
Pie- Koishi: Mason Encryptor
bubba- Okuu: 1-shot bomb (use unknown)
Saki- Eirin: VT
Sakura- Yuuka: VT

-Dead Town-
Kaze- Youmu: VT
Serene- Satori: 2-shot rolecop
Lush- Shikieiki: Odd-night Cop

-Lynched Scum-
CoK- Sakuya: Ninja
Gaiden- Reimu: 1-shot Strongman + encryptor

[Kagami]

With that, you should be mostly caught up.

[Kagami]

Left out: Serene was a mason too, which is why Pie is conftown

[Kagami]

Nacho, Mac, MC, and dram should probably just claim. There are already more than enough great kill targets that I don't see anything being especially valuable to save.

[Kagami]

@Yukari: If the motivator motivates a roleblocking role, and that roleblocking role blocks the motivator with the second shot, does the game explode?

[Kagami]

boring

[Kagami]

I think Lush though I was the motivator, not that he investigated me.

It does make sense, though, that lush was motivated. I can't think of who else he could possibly have interacted with.

[Kagami]

You're derp.

[Kagami]

Nacho is currently in Kagami's "Quite likely scum" bin. Pls don't sheep him. He can only be town, in my mind, if you are scum.

One of {dramonic, Mac, GCBC} is probably scum as well, so Cabd is a dangerous sheep too.

[Kagami]

AD, any thoughts?

[Kagami]

Yuuka, VT

I figured this would jump out at you.

[Kagami]

Essentially conf-town is a status I thoroughly exploit, as you may remember from micro 273

[Kagami]

I suspect one scum was off both Day 1 wagons, and that there's another scum on Varsoon's day 1 wagon.

What do you think about the two night 1 kills, Sakura?

[Kagami]

Oh, and how well do you know touhou flavor?

[Kagami]

"scum has a way to make a 2nd kill"

Recent events have led me back to this theory~

Everyone doubted me when I first posited it, it's nice that we're thinking on the same wavelength there.

[Kagami]

Kise said it was functionally a track, I think, might have been flavored differently, but doesn't really matter.

[Kagami]

Yes, it's definitely possible.

It's also possible that the scum have something like an odd-night double kill; hard to say.

[Kagami]

I think we need the rest of the claims.

My current theory is that the motivator is even-night.

[Kagami]

top~

[Kagami]

Varsoon, you're a 1-shot redirector and nothing else, right?