Newbie 1471: Italian Ice (Game Over!)

[RayFrost]

wait wtf why am i in another game

Mother of god the commitments.

[RayFrost]

Vote: Bjc

Putting this here for now too busy to actually make real postings for at least today / tomorrow, but yeah.

[RayFrost]

I didn't remember to out from a second game and now I'm here. I will eventually have time to actually BE present. Until then, I've gotta sort out my life and try to find room in my schedule because holy fuck.

[RayFrost]

If you aren't declaring things with certainty, you haven't learned the art of mafia. ALL THINGS ARE CERTAIN, NOTHING IS UNCERTAIN.

At least when it comes to expressing it. "I think so and so is scum because of this and that" is a lot less convincing than "So and so is scum. Lynch it it must die kill it kill kill die scum die here's why you should die, please lynch this scum, die" even if your level of confidence is of the "I think so possibly maybe" variety. Also, expressing uncertainty about a read decreases the pressure that comes from it.

Imagine, for example, that I cam on and say the following:

I'm not sure, but Ika might possibly be scum guys. If you look at his posts he kinda gives me the feeling of someone coming up with a mix of not-really-tells (the whole "ic means should be playing a specific way / doing more than anybody else" thing - just for the record, this is completely untrue, an IC is meant to play the game as normal and be available to answer questions regarding the game of mafia and how it is thought about / played on this site, not be a paragon of towniness and a shining example of the pure and truest way of playing the game and yes this is all in one parenthetical because I like it that way) and sort of inaccurate statements that are based on piggy backing off of someone else (saying nacho is coasting).

He even kinda shows that he's not confident about his read by saying it's probably biased by other people. Why doesn't he show confidence in his read? Seems a little bit suspicious to me, you know? Especially since he's putting Nacho at l-1 despite his lack of confidence. And l-1 is claim/lynch range. I don't know about you guys, but I would consider voting him a potentially good idea. Maybe catch scum.

Not to mention he goes on about nacho coasting but puts me at null-town. I kinda... don't have any content... yet I'm somewhat town... for coasting. I think that it'd be different. I mean, I'm as experienced as nacho, so why do I get a town-flavored null read when I have basically coasted without any content for five pages? Seems a little strange to me.

He also admits that he's only really looking at the two most popular picks for scum as scummy lynch choices. The lack of original content seems off to me. I also get a generically off feeling about his posting that makes me think he might be scum. Ika is probably a good choice to vote.

Unvote, Vote: Ika

Now compare it to this:

Guys, Ika is scum. Look at his posting for a few moments regarding Nacho. He comes in with focus shifting to Nacho, and essentially says Nacho is scummy for not being an IC in the way Ika thinks an IC should be played (which is wrong - see above explanation of what an IC does) and just following the words of other people. He doesn't have any

real

backing to what he has to say. It's very much one of those "attention is shifting, jump the wagon!" type things.

He even admits outright that he feels his vote is more a matter of following other people (saying it's biased by others) than of any actual reasoning or thinking of his own. He's even so confident in his sheeping that he's willing to put nacho into l-1 (claim / lynch range)

in the first four pages

and doesn't even unvote despite the fact that he lacks his own real backing (and expresses a lack of confidence in his read). He is literally sheeping someone else's call that Nacho is coasting

in the first four pages of a game

to put him at l-1 while at the same time hamstringing his vote by saying he has no actual confidence in it while still keeping it there. Can't get any more obvious than this.

Then, after just a little bit of replying from Nacho, he jumps ship faster than a paranoid man thinks someone's out to get him. Why? Because he never really had any confidence in his read in the first place. And it's so much easier to just constantly shift around behind whatever looks like it'll get steam than to actually provide anything of his own to work with.

Even his reads list is wholly unimpressive. Where's the reasoning for putting me at null-town, for example, when I have literally posted

zero content this game

? How do you slightly read town off of someone with equal experience to the IC doing the most blatant level of coasting possible (no content whatsoever) when you literally get a "hard" scum read off of the IC doing the very same thing? The double standards used for convenience are scummy. Probably because he's scum.

He then goes on to essentially say that he's only really looking at the people considered scummiest. He's blatantly and openly admitting that he's sheeping the majority on who to look at. The consistent lack of own-idea posting, the contrived feel I get from several of his posts, and the generic ingenuity of his "scumhunting" all point to him being scum.

Ika is scum. Scum is Ika. Kill it.

Unvote, Vote: Ika

[RayFrost]

In nacho's 95 he scolds me for supposedly demanding content from him and then, in the same post, invites ika to call him out if he isn't paying enough attention to the game.

Curious.

The two are flat out not the same thing.

"Call me out if you think I'm neglecting posting in this game" is different from calling you out on posting but not providing any content with said posting. I feel the need to comment here before Nacho does because I think the suspicion of nacho is ridiculous. As in worthy of ridicule. The literal definition of the word.

It boils down to "the ic isn't playing like a deity? waht oh noes what could possibly be the reason for him not being the most active person with every post brimming with beauty and genius? he's scum coasting, that's it! got im guys!" and you essentially omgus'ing the hell out of him. If ika weren't so obviously scum, I'd probably want you to be lynched for great justice.

[RayFrost]

You didn't say your opinion regarding what I wrote about Ika, you fence sat.

Please give an actual opinion regarding the points I make, whether you feel they have weight, and whether you agree or disagree with them.

[RayFrost]

Never skim my shit again if you intend to talk about it.

I give long posts because I have a lot to say that I want read, not because I like putting a bunch of words on a page to make myself feel warm and cuddly inside.

[RayFrost]

You're acting as if displaying confidence is inherently using up credibility. It doesn't. Consistently confident type players don't suddenly start getting ignored. If you're actively vocal and confident, you get more people to respond to you because they react to you as if you're full on. This provides greater depth to getting read son the reactions, etc, etc, etc. And of course I wouldn't just flip someone five pages in but that doesn't mean I should just be gentle. Pushing hard gets stronger reactions with which one gets stronger reads. It helps convince people, it makes you seem less wishy washy, it promotes town reads on you (which is good regardless of alignment), makes you seem more vocal with the same level of content (again, town reads are good regardless of alignment), provides more pressure on the people or person being pressured, and opens up the way to any level of discussion that might be necessary to get reads.

It even has helped with this exchange, since you're going to reply to what I said.

[RayFrost]

TiersofShifty: I specifically repeated what I said before to display a difference in style to make a point about confidence. I said so in the post you're complaining about. I will write as much as I want.

Please stop trying to teach/tell me how to play the game. It's coming across condescending. And I so do dislike when someone condescends to me.

I completely disagree that it looks genuine on his part. Everything in his posting reads as "straining" rather than "genuine effort" to me.

And how is his double standard regarding me / nacho NOT at all scummy? His biggest reason for voting nacho is explicitly coasting (aka a lack of content and just sidling by) while nacho is an experienced player. I am equally as experienced (if we look at the number of games I might actually be *more* experienced), and I had at the time no content from which he could base a read. Yet he puts me, WITHOUT ANY REASONS, as a slightly townish (that's what null-town is) read.

And I swear if he tries to use the content I have now as an excuse for his previous read I will rain down

so

much unholy fire.

That said, you are stating that you feel a scumtell is applicable to bjc. Do you feel it's the only applicable scumtell and are you actually applying it? What is your read, as of now, on bjc?

Why do you feel that "coasting" is a valid scumtell four pages into a game wherein the IC has actually made content posts despite a sizable portion of the playerlist not even being present? If other people don't post content, how do you expect nacho to post content?

How do you actually feel about nacho's posting since your vote? Your only real reply to it is basically "lol nacho nobody's gonna follow your case cuz we expect more from you tho I see your point" which completely ignores his defense and is a soft dismissal of his scumhunting content. I want a hard, clear-cut statement of your feelings on whether nacho is still the scummiest player in the game, who you think is second most scummy, and why.

[RayFrost]

Not even remotely a wall.

And I dislike you ignoring my posting. RESPOND TO IT OR PERISH

[RayFrost]

Well my post's long so I guess it's okay. Go ahead on to physics class

[RayFrost]

I feel the need to comment here before Nacho does because I think the suspicion of nacho is ridiculous. As in worthy of ridicule. The literal definition of the word.

how about you explain to me why you felt the need to defend nacho when hes capable of doing it himself?

I literally answer this question in the post you quote.

[RayFrost]

P-edit: there's more posts since my last one, I haven't read them, this is in isolation from that.

-snip-

It is more of my playstyle. If you want to cram a lynch down me then go ahead, it will just come back to you. I know there is no "mayeb this maybe that" but when you have the air of uncertainty, you have to go with guts and what you know. Like right here, your post is good and informative, but have you isoed me and read many of my other posts?

This is a game of being certain and uncertainty is bad. However I will do this a lot. It is one of my flaws that i have. Wehn i become certain i will stick with it. as of right now i am still tryong to gether information and figure things out. That is why i am so indecicive right now.

I rather have a dead-lock confidence on something then going blindly into it.

You are seriously going with the "go ahead try to lynch me, it will come back to haunt you and make you seem scummy WWwoooOoooooOspookyghostsoundsOoooOoo" option? ++scumminess

I literally read this entire thread and you're asking me if I read you in isolation? Seriously? Are you seriously asking me a serious question here?

There's a difference between being indecisive and blatantly following people instead of using your own noggin. Seems to me you've been doing the former more than the latter.

Do you have ANYTHING AT ALL that you are certain about?

And there's more than just "dead-lock confidence" and "going blindly"

[RayFrost]

I feel the need to comment here before Nacho does because I think the suspicion of nacho is ridiculous. As in worthy of ridicule. The literal definition of the word.

how about you explain to me why you felt the need to defend nacho when hes capable of doing it himself?

I literally answer this question in the post you quote.

So when I flip town what will you do? I like to look at options and what could fit and what could not. Your reasoning on me is vaild but you seemed to have crammed it down that im scum becasue of my playstyle. I am merly trying to get a better grasp at why you felt the need to defned him.

I don't see how anything aside from the last line is relevant to the post you quoted. I'll still reply.

IF you flip town, I'll look at the votes on you to see which feel like shameless bandwagoning, I'll reread the thread, etc, etc. Just with the new information garnered adding to my perspective.

Also are you saying that my case is valid but it's your playstyle so it's not valid? Mother of god this is one of my greatest pet peeves.

I didn't feel the need to defend him. I have an issue with the case being bad, so I'm saying it's bad. If a bad case is made, I'm going to say so. Simply put.

[RayFrost]

Frost playstle and agression comes off to me as a 2-way street

scum agression or town agression.

his deathtunnle on me feel like its scum inclined, however it could also be him tring to gauge a reaction out of me if hes town. im not a newbie and have plenty of experince playing. So i know the diffrent playstelyes. However fros apparenyl havign a few games under his belt means this isnt something new.

My only question is what is frost hoping to get out of this tunnle on me. is he trying to get a myslynch on me or is he merly gauging reactions on it. He did cause some discussion with it but its too early for me to make a final say on what to think of it

... how the fuck is this a "deathtunnel" and how is that inherently scummy?

Dude, your perspective of your experience vs mine is weird to me. I have been on this site for going on five years. I'm not sure if you're trying to be rude by calling my experience "a few games" or if you're really that full of yourself on the four or so months on site that you have or if you think that some length of time on some other site constitutes having thorough and valuable experience that outstrips playing here, but you should work on this because it's extremely antagonizing to minimize things like that.

It's not a tunnel. I've commented to/about abbot despite having only really been a part of this game for... ONE PAGE.

Also the fact that you completely avoid actually replying to my points and just say that literally all of them are valid points but are your playstyle is scummy as hell to me.

Explain the doublestandard re: the reads on me and nacho from your reads post.

[RayFrost]

What have i missed?

Everything. Catch up and post content or perish.

[RayFrost]

And what did you get out of your supposed reaction test with your read list?

There's no "content in the eye of the beholder" in my actively asking abbot for specific information. The fact the rest of the playerlist hasn't been active during the time I have been isn't really something I can control.

[RayFrost]

Favorite role to play as?
Playstyle preference?
where do you originate from if you played before?
do you prefer town, scum, or neutral?
Who is your strongest town and scum read?
who are your null reads?
why are you reading all those players like that?

Town rewarder. I made the role up as a fakeclaim when I was scum this one time when we could give the mod a set of desired role abilities and have her generate a fakeclaim that would have the appropriate flavor. I haven't actually played the role, but I feel like it'd be awesome.

My preferred playstyle is transparent and aggressive. I originate from here. I prefer "or"

Currently don't have any strong town reads, and my strongest scum read is pretty obvious. Null reads are the people who haven't posted content yet, with the remainder some flavor of null at varying levels (slightly townish, slightly scummy, etc).

Because of their posting and play. Or lack thereof.

[RayFrost]

I don't see a single breadcrumb, lyme. And I dislike the fact you're seriously trying to avoid posting actual content and responses in favor of talking about some weak breadcrumb bait attempt that probably nobody caught to begin with. Like... seriously.

[RayFrost]

RF - patronizing townie

Pretty sure "patronizing" means false niceness. I am very sure that I'm not being nice. If I give you the feeling that I feel superior, that's on you. I am simply confident in my ways and have had a while to think about them.


Someone losing credibility for being confident about a read with a valid case on the person that ends up in a town lynch is kinda strange to me as a concept. If the case was good, then that means the person who got lynched was scummy but not scum. Meaning the person who made the case is scumhunting at least decently well. And the fact that people followed that case means that there's potential for bandwagoning scumsos to get caught out as well as there being evidence that townies actually read the case and were impressed enough to follow it (because it's a good case with valid points). For the same townies to then turn around and be like "man person X who made that case was wrong, I don't trust that guy anymore" when it takes several people to lynch is a very hard concept for me to find myself agreeing with. It's very much "we as a group were convinced by this person, but they were wrong this time so clearly their judgment is horrible because the case itself was invalid but we went with it anyway because we like squirrels" type of thinking to me.

As a group, we decide who gets lynched. One person alone can't make the decision (at least, in most games). If someone consistently makes good cases, I'm going to take them into account equally. I won't just be like "man you make a good set of points here but because the last time you made a good set of points you were wrong I won't be listening to you cuz how can I trust you." Each case has its own value and merit, and to dismiss a good case on the basis of the group deciding to follow someone else's (clearly well written / semi-valid) ideas and not having it pan out... I really really can't get my head around it.

[RayFrost]

Bro ika, I just replaced 2 days ago, I don't have that much content.

Now's a good time to start putting some content out in your posts, then. Go ahead, feel free. Don't mind us, you can make content posts and scumhunt and be helpful. We won't stop you.

Ika: I don't inherently feel that lyme's posting necessarily means that he's town/scum. It's a bit too early for me to get a bead. He did a "gotcha" play which could be from either alignment, so yeah. My feelings be "waitnsea"

[RayFrost]

Ika: Abbot more likely scum than Nacho at the moment. Nacho's expressed he's busy in real life, so I'd give him more time personally.

Well I will admit my vote on Nacho was weak to some extent. It was mostly to make a wagon. Same crap I've done all game (try to spark discussion). If I didn't do that, I don't think ika would have put you at L-1 unless others voted, and who knows if you would've supplied more information. Hmmm...

I will also

unvote; vote: Abott

J

ust sudden mood changed, why did you give up on nacho and suddenly follow the wagon?

K

ay, it looks like you're looking for a quick-lynch.

VOTE: bcj

Spells out JK, come on frost, you should of seen this reaction test.

..........

I would be very surprised if ANYBODY but you realized that was supposed to be a breadcrumb.

[RayFrost]

Now that htat's settled how about some actual content about recent postings and getting more reads out for us to look at and actuallyreading the thread fully which I feel you haven't

[RayFrost]

bjc, unless you have seen ika's playstyle as scum as well, you have no real meta based argument to defend him with.

It's like going to a magic show and saying "I've seen the heads side of this coin, so the other side must be tails" and ignoring the possibility of a coin with heads on both sides. (Specifically a magic show because in normal society a coin usually has heads and tails whereas magic shows tend to have trickery).

Lyme, I don't think you're inherently scum right now, but I also don't find your case to be particularly convincing. I'll still appreciate votes on ika because ika is scum, but I am hardly ever a fan of trying to use connection based reasoning between people when you have absolutely zero knowledge about the alignments of the people in question. Try to make cases off of the merits of each person individually and THEN point out that, if one flips scum, then the other is likely a buddy due to connections.

I also want you to comment about things other than your case(s) against those two. What are your reads on tiershift / nacho / myself / etc? What are your opinions regarding the content from the recent pages aside from stuff about bjc / ika?

[RayFrost]

Something I need to point out to the new players: people defending other people does

not

mean they are scumbuddies. Scumbuddies mostly avoid each other as to not draw attention to them.

The first sentence is correct. The second sentence is not correct. Different scum play differently. Trying to make a general statement about how scum plays can lead to you falling into the trap of "scum play this way so this is a sign that they're town" when really that's a scumtell for that person.

Trying to make scumpair calls before a flip is just not a good idea though. You've got no guaranteed information and trying to see those connections before you do can lead to severe bias with your reads.

[RayFrost]

I suppose.

Note to self: hardcore defend scumbuddy d1 when in game with tiershift.

[RayFrost]

Heh. It's actually pretty hard to genuinely defend a scumbuddy, whose scummy things you can see and need to avoid and then make it seem like you didn't.

So, who are you gonna defend starting now?

Since I'm not scum, I don't really need to do this now do I?

I'll stick with how I've been playing, thanks. While we're here, though, can you point out to me what about ika's posting seems genuine to you?

[RayFrost]

Ika, I've had games where I ignore my scum buddies, bus them, distance from them, buddy up to them, and done a mix of these for different people. I even had a game where I essentially let myself die in order for a buddy to be a completely solid and beautiful town read.

I don't consistently play well as scum, so naturally that must mean that my playstyle is inconsistent as well.

[RayFrost]

Unvote, Vote: RobinWilliams

I am clearly never going to get support for the ika lynch because everyone just sees it as his ~playstyle~ (I really really

really

hate how much my games have been "rayfrost made a good case but it's untrue because it's ~playstyle~" lately).

And I am willing to vote here for [Reasons].

[RayFrost]

Obviously I'm going to disagree with that.

"Your case is valid" has been said to me by ika himself. Meaning the case is good. The issue making it not a "good" case is the playstyle excuse. Meta hamstrings validity. Which is part of why I'm thinking of playing fewer games on MS. Too much meta being used for my tastes.

[RayFrost]

Putting someone at l-1 does not inherently run the risk of the person getting lynched in so much that putting any other vote on the person runs the risk of the person getting lynched.

There's no real case of scum quickhammering a l-1 outside of lynch or lose. This is because of the fact that instantly hammering someone without coming to an agreement that there's nothing more to discuss will garner a lot of attention (if not suspicion), essentially putting the scum into the spotlight in a bad way. Questions will come firing out of everyone's mouths, and as scum you tend to not want everyone's eyes on you. There is no real value for scum to quickhammer, and any reasonable townie would wait until it was agreed or that they felt further discussion had no value (ie the town was just running in circles saying the same thing over and over in different ways)

The point about the l-1 is not valid. I don't feel that ika is using wifom to manipulate anybody anywhere.

Although I personally feel that ika is scummy, I do not believe that the points you are raising against him are at all valid.

[RayFrost]

and i was being open to you witht the staement, im here, ask me questions. not asking is not doing anything. right now all i see is

"ika is scum, vote him" but i dont see the reasoning. is there something that you are not understanding that i need to clarify?

This is a townish post. This is why I said scummy instead of scum. The read is weakening seeing how he defends against lyme.

[RayFrost]

I like those posts by LMB. Has any real pressure been put on ika this game?

unovte; vote: ika

I don't believe so.

Okay this guy I can see as scum.

Lyme seems genuinely town, if misguided.

[RayFrost]

Also guys, I can't believe I'm saying this to a IC/SE, but are you FREAKING out of your mind? We have good scum reads and do not blindly lynch RobW for inactivity. He'll get replaced soon which is much better then wasting a lynch.

We're not blindly lynching anyone for inactivity.

oh really? plz tell me more how we are not blindly doing it for inactivity.

Well, firstly, we aren't necessarily lynching anyone at this point in time. It's two votes. Two votes a lynch does not make.

It's also not entirely about inactivity. That's actually a pretty worthless thing to vote someone for. "You aren't here, this vote will magically bring you back!" would indeed be a silly thing to think. It's a good thing Nacho and I aren't silly.

[RayFrost]

The above being said, I actually feel a lot better about this than rob.

The most major points against bjc, in my opinion, are his complete flexibility, and lack of proactivity when it comes to scumhunting. He's been an almost completely passive recipient of the game. He posts, but many of them give the feeling of "I have posted content, now you guys can use this bone to go away and ignore me." How much follow up has he had on

anything

he's done this game? I'm not going to lie, he's got posts that are content-heavy in terms of giving reads and opinions, but almost all of them are one-offs. Like a butterfly settling on a flower without pollinating. Drop here, deposit opinion, fly away and deposit opinion elsewhere, rinse repeat. There's no commitment to anything, and there's a line between having shifting reads and a long list of votes by convenience. I feel like he's crossed that line.

[RayFrost]

Oh and I just realized why you guys may get a feeling of being condescended toward from reading my posts. My signature.

Don't worry, my signature doesn't apply to any of my posts in this game. Except the one where I talk about ika saying I've got a few games when I've been on site as long as nacho. That one I think it could apply. Cuz not checking the join date or anything before talking about someone's experience is a bit silly. Not really game relevant though.

Abott, I'd just like to say that I don't need or want to appeal to emotion. I merely vented my frustrations in that post. I had one game somewhat recently where literally

the entire playerlist but me

had a bunch of meta-reads on each other to justify essentially ignoring 90% of what I said. Can you imagine putting in hours of work into a game only to have people go "nah, I know that person, that's just how they do" - not related to this game specifically, it's a generic hatred toward meta.

Also, I'm going to keep playing with my legos. I'm practicing for the annual Frost tournament wherein we attempt to use legos carved from ice to create statues of Michael Jackson during various stages of his life. I simply can't afford to stop practicing. Sorry if you step on any.

[RayFrost]

What scumbuddyi-

Oh right that thing that you said about the stuff.

Heartily disagree. We lynch bcj, when he flips scum, we analyze things from there.

[RayFrost]

Mother of god, waking up at 4 in the afternoon because I'm sick as a dog and took the day off to find a posting explosion.

Going to leave my vote on rob, I do not have intent to hammer as of right now due to the fact that we have so much more to discuss. We've got time, no need to rush the lynch.

I am not really a fan of reasonless reads posts, but I guess I'll do it to satisfy ika. It will be done via a spectrum: the closer they are to the word, the stronger I read them as that.

Town
Nacho
Ika
-------- (space to show distance)
Abott
Tiershift
Lyme
--------
Emerald
Rob bjc
Scum

[RayFrost]

I already feel that I know what you're going for, which is why I did it despite my distaste.

[RayFrost]

Lyme, give a list of your reads without any reasons or quotes or anything attached to them.

I'd make a snarky comment about how you basically only write in one liners, but it's not necessary. I still feel the need to note that I really hate any posting style that revolves around one liners due to just how tiresome it is to see fifty posts by one person when it coulda been three.

[RayFrost]

Posting content is not equivalent to the content or the person being town. Even if the content in isolation is pro-town, it must also be considered in how it is delivered (word choice, etc), when it is delivered (after other people say the same thing?), why it is delivered (oh noes wagons on me?), and other things of similar nature.

Then there's also the fact that content itself can be anti-town in nature. For a bit of an extreme example, posting a case for everybody in the game to be scum is inherently anti-town in nature due to the fact that it basically opens up the possibility to lynch everyone without actually narrowing down who

is

scum.

Content that does not further the process of finding scum or is posted in such a way as to indicate that the poster is scum is inherently not going to be pro-town content.

Information Instead Of Analysis is a similar case of this wherein the person is posting content, but the content itself is not inherently townish or necessarily coming from a pro-town mindset.

If the game were as easy as "posters of content are town, posters of not-content are scum," then mafia would never have become an interesting or worthwhile game.

[RayFrost]

Woops. I got the prod, didn't pay attention to time while I was waiting for ika's grannnd post.

I'll content in the next couple of days

[RayFrost]

I am very surprised and not very happy with ika's post.

Your method of finding scum assumes flawlessly wrong group-think intelligence (in that what the group thinks is scum is inherently incorrect: if the MAJORITY thinks someone is scum, then that means there are MORE TOWN PEOPLE behind the idea, which inherently increases the chances of the person being scum if we follow your way of thinking but take an ever so slightly different track). It's just not really effective. The information is valuable, but the way you're attempting to analyze it is flawed.

You also have to take into account the potential for previous read posts to influence later read posts (especially for scum): if someone sees the majority thinking one thing about someone/something, there is inherently an influence from this on their perceptions regarding that subject/person. This is especially true for people who are faking their opinion (scum), as they will be more likely to attempt to fit their "opinion" into the mold set by the previous input. This also lends itself to discrediting the concept of using a compilation of reasonless reads posts for direct, straightforward, confident scumhunting. Instead, the value garnered from this is forcing people into stating an opinion, and then having a follow up: making everyone back up what they said.

So... here's the follow up to Ika's activity.

I would like everyone to

, without quoting posts,

give a BRIEF (minimum of three sentences [because rob hasn't posted more than 11 words in any post of his] and maximum of one paragraph, or six to eight written sentences [because some of you have a tendency to go on too long about one person]) explanation or back-up to their stated reads.

However, there's a hitch. I want this done in a particular order. Akin to popcorn claiming, we're going to have the person considered scummiest go first and have it scale back to the person considered towniest. I'll be using ika's post for reference due to him having conveniently compiled this information.

1.

RobW

2.

bjc

3.

emeralddoge

3.

abott

4.

tiershift

4.

ika

4.

nachobro

5.

Lyme

5.

RayFrost

People with the same number should feel free to do it once the higher ordered people have done it (I didn't want to have my own bias enter this or force things to take a ridiculously long time)

I don't care if you've laid it all out in a twenty post essay paper or already done the exercise for some of them, I want a full compilation (if you've already done it for someone, feel free to just copy and paste it). The reason I want things to be said succinctly is that it limits the noise:signal ratio. If you can't compile your thoughts into something short, then you should consider whether you've actually fully thought out the reasoning behind your case.

The reason I don't want quotes is that they break up the flow and also artificially add length to the words without actually providing especially helpful information. Talk about the person's

play

, don't break down how each post can individually potentially be seen as coming from scum. It's not as helpful at this stage to consider things like that unless there's an explicitly supremely scummy thing. Otherwise you're just compiling a bunch of evidence to back up your end conclusion (which is a general description of why you think their play is scummy).

And I don't want you just saying "see what X said about Y to know my opinion" - if someone already basically covered it, then I want you to attempt to say it in your own words. I highly doubt that anyone will say exactly what you thought to say, so don't even try to pull that unless you're scum volunteering to hang. In which case, feel free. The game will go more smoothly.

The reason I am doing this is to essentially force the people considered most likely to be scum to commit to an opinion before the people considered town can influence them or give them a free coattail to ride. I don't care if this gets done this game day or if it gets done D2, but I want this done within that time span. Preferably done in two days, but I can understand being busy preventing everyone from getting it all in (especially when freaking rob is first, mother of god).

[RayFrost]

Per person. Total would defeat the point of preventing rob from posting two words.

[RayFrost]

I mean it like this:

Abott read: 3-8 sentence explanation

Ray read: 3-8 sentence explanation

And so on down the line.

[RayFrost]

Welcome to the game.

You can call me snowman dan.

[RayFrost]

I would never personally call nacho godly in his scumhunting, but I've known him for ages.

[RayFrost]

It's better to say "look at x regardless of wehtehr I die or live"

[RayFrost]

Hi. Intent to hammer once sakura catches up.

[RayFrost]

What reads have changed since your reads post and your catchup

[RayFrost]

That's all?

[RayFrost]

fakeclaiming is bad mmkay

gambiting is variably useful

[RayFrost]

This thread has a very good opening post.

[RayFrost]

Also, I started going on five years ago on MS. I feel like I've become a worse player since then.

[RayFrost]

Anyway, it's 3 am and I am fucking tired.

So peace out lates homies yo yo ya dig mah shindig

... or something

idk, blame the tater tots

[RayFrost]

Reason I linked that thread was to try and express just how negative my opinion of fakeclaiming anything other than vt as town is (being a pr and claiming vt in the hopes of being able to later be like SURPRISE because you feel confident you can push back your lynch is a completely viable idea provided you actually have a shot at it: I have a game I'd link where this happened, but I don't remember the game and don't feel like searching. Search for "sol" post author via threads or something and look for somewhat oldish newbie game idr)

Also Nacho said his work week ended so he should be able to post a lot. I'd give him a day.

[RayFrost]

Nacho, I wanted to satisfy ika because I wanted to see where he'd go with it. What he did was completely not what I had imagined, but I don't see anything inherently wrong with being willing to perform an exercise for a town read.

[RayFrost]

I'd also like to point out that, despite bjc's very early willingness to toss his vote around, he has become increasingly cautious with changing votes as the game has gone on. I personally don't think it's a strong enough behavioral switch to go off of, but I didn't see any real mention of it.

I am going to be reading a book for a work-type thing today, so I'll be in'n'out like that one burger place.

Mod: Will we be getting a deadline extension pending the robw replacement?

[RayFrost]

Which is why I said it's not a strong point to go off of

[RayFrost]

All things are worth pointing out.

Including the gigantic pink laser shooting through my abdomen.

[RayFrost]

What's a game if you can't let loose and have a lil bit of joking banter every now and then?

[RayFrost]

Someone let out the goddess inside him.

Unfortunately the goddess was a particle beam.

[RayFrost]

K so bjc is now confirmed town. Any questions? No? Good.

Seriously tho, intent to vote/hammer on ED is present for the time being but may change pending replacement value/input.

[RayFrost]

I forgot that specific song until you did that though.

[RayFrost]

I was talking about the robw replacement.

I don't really feel anything about him not wanting to claim: can come from scum or town motivations. Makes me leery but not much.

I'm standing at hana-town, ika-town, nacho-kindatown, bjc-somewhatscummy, robw-diescumbutreplacesoidk, ed-leaningscum, tearshift-null.

p-edit: I appreciate the recommendation, bjc.

[RayFrost]

I didn't make a mistake so much as the wording was a bit ambiguous.

Anyway, I've been procrastinating reading this book a bit too much. I need to finish it within the next three or four hours.

RADIO SILENCE OR RIOT

also, much love to you all

especially the entire cast of queen

[RayFrost]

I never said abott was null / scum. I actually listed him as leaning town, and hana is townposting to me, so she's a towny read.

Ika's my strongest town read at the moment, hana is #2, and I'm getting a feeling about nacho. It might just be my haterade, though. huehue

[RayFrost]

I'm still trying to figure out why you'd name yourself cherry blossom

[RayFrost]

Makes sense.

My name comes from a roleplay character I made some 7 years ago, and it's kinda stuck with me since then.

I'd show the picture that spawned the name, but it's not saved on this computer and I'm lazy.

[RayFrost]

Unvote

As a sign of good faith.

[RayFrost]

I don't think he's obvtown. I think he's more likely to be town than other players in this game, given certain conditions that I haven't stated yet. And that won't be stated for the time being.

[RayFrost]

Nacho takes a hit

I take a hit

Main two people.

[RayFrost]

Yes he is. But he's probably town.

[RayFrost]

Exactly.

[RayFrost]

Reading everything, emeraldemon is the most scummy to me at the moment.

And yes I am serious when I say pisskop is probably town. Unfortunately so.

[RayFrost]

Oh right voting. I forget this a lot.

Vote: Emeraldo men

[RayFrost]

Koppy, what's your take on emerald

[RayFrost]

He's never not going to be like this in terms of the quality of his logic, but that doesn't make it so that we can't read him for sincerity / transparency tells. Which, if you were a transparency tell kind of person, you'd be able to do pretty easily off of his posting.

[RayFrost]

Also, I am sorry about whatever unfortunate thing that happened to you / the people around you.

[RayFrost]

Koppy, I meant that in this game you aren't likely to experience a massive improvement. I'm sure you'll learn.

Emeralderino: The comment about wanting to believe I'm town isn't helpful and is an appeal. Things like that are why I think you're scummy. It's a lot of posturing. Many of your posts are information without analysis.

[RayFrost]

I have to leave for work in ten minutes, so I don't really have time at the moment to lay t he case out fully. Cliff notes version is written in my last post.

[RayFrost]

I am not a fan of using meta, let alone meta off of one game. At the very least, if you're going to meta someone, have three games per alignment to be able to get a feel for style consistency / adaptations with regard to differences in situation.

If you can't fulfill that minimum, I am unable to even accept meta as reason for anything.

P-edit: I am partial to death by brownie explosion.

[RayFrost]

I'm off to work now. See you lot in several hours.

[RayFrost]

Content pls

[RayFrost]

When I'm ready to talk about it, I'd prefer to have you go first because then I can pretend that you said everything that I never actually thought up because I have nothing to support myself with.

I'm kidding.

But yes I'd prefer you go first because I would like to see what you had in mind. My stuff's fairly simple and starightforward. It's not that there's a line of inquiry set up so much as that the reasons I have for thinking what I'm thinking are not things I wanna discuss due to revealing things that shouldn't be revealed.

Nothing to do with other ongoing games please don't bring any up.

[RayFrost]

I don't know the purpose behind pisskop's post.

But it's not game relevant that I'm in another game with him. Mmmkay?

[RayFrost]

Unvote, vote: tiershift

Actively against voting for pisskop at this stage in the game. If you guys could read transparency tells this would make more sense to you. Pisskop's genuine as hell.

bjc's an iffy lynch choice due to the fact that he's been hovering on the edge of a knife the majority of the game day now without any of several cases being able to really push it through

I am a personal fan of emeraldemon lynch because I feel his posting has been lackluster on the whole. There's frustration tells, but the frustration reads to me as caught for the wrong reasons frustration rather than you're wrong and goddammit listen to me reasons. Self-preservation levels are abnormal to me when I read over the height of suspicion on him. He's not quite fully devoted to the whole self-preservation thing but the air of "fine I find teh scumzies lynch me idc" comes across as forced rather than genuine. Compare posting of this style to the frustrated posts and you can tell a distinct difference in how they come across. Modulation in style reveals removal of genuine self in place of a facade, which is indicative more likely of scum than town.

It's 3:32 am. I am going to go die now.

[RayFrost]

By the way the vote on tiershift is to indicate that I'd prefer tier over pisskop lynched if you guys aren't convinced that dogmeraldo is scum.

[RayFrost]

In the hypothetical situation where bjc is scum for sure without a doubt with interactions akin to this game, there would have been, I'd imagine, a tipping point at which either bjc's buddy was attempting to consistently raise counterwagons (not just one, as consistently trying to push a single one could come across as scummy via the t.v. issue whereas finding things scummy for multiple people is more liable to be seen as active scumhunting and mere disagreement with the bjc wagon) or given up the ghost and gone for the bus. These wouldn't necessarily happen at the same time, but the simple fact that I haven't seen much evidence of people trying to subtly snipe the wagon's momentum or distract from the wagon itself or even a bus makes me inclined to feel that it's simply an issue of too many low hanging fruit for bjc to be lynched.

There's a line in my head that I can't really quantify wherein the willingness or unwillingness to lynch someone displayed by multiple parties leads me to lean a certain way on a read based on the style of the pressure applied. The pressure on bjc has a mixed feel: some of it comes across as genuine whereas other posts come across as forced. Some of these posts are from the same people, which leads me to feel that there's a mix of "town players who feel right but can't really support it with convincing cases" along with "scum that likes tagging along for the ride" and "townies tagging along for the sake of [information] or [survival]" - the issue is, of course, sorting which is which between the last two. Which I suck horribly at.

I'm not really following the sakura case. All I can get out of these interactions in terms of things you guys find scummy is "sakura wasn't pressuring ffery" - hardly particularly convincing. Which leads me to think you have more. Please explain.

Hayagatemi (fun fact, this is actually easy to say in Japanese): you say you prefer sakura over tier / pisskop, but what about emmy the big green dog?

[RayFrost]

Post 480 in particular. That "let you all down" comment is something I've seen before a few times. I didn't even have to read around the ISO to know where that was coming from. His previous comment said it all.

I consider rob to be a complete and total null. He was a non-presence in the game. The letting you all down comment could just as easily be apologizing indirectly to his scumbuddy or apologizing to everyone for forcing yet another replacement as it could be a townie apologizing to the townspeople about his inability to perform.

If Rob had, at any point in time, actually been present in the game I might feel more inclined to believe you could get a tell from this due to having a better grip on his personality, but given that I have written more than his entire body of work in my last post alone I find it hard to believe that you feel you have a reliable personality read on him to make the judgment call on which of the three potential situations it is.

This is not to detract from the obv-townness of pkipps but I feel the need to ask how you can truly express confidence in your ability to grab personality tells to make alignment tells from a series of 4 word posts

[RayFrost]

I'm just going to say I derped and forgot all about trying to sort ffery

This doesn't answer the rest of the post that this is supposed to be a reply to.

Explain how you differentiate between the koppi and bjc reads.

I may not read you as scum, but that doesn't mean I am going to let you get away with not replying to issues that people have with your posting.

[RayFrost]

Also, I don't really care about the shorthand you use for the name. It's not my real name so I wouldn't worry about feeling too "casual." I'm a pretty chill guy.

Nicknames that have been used in the past: frosty the snowman, frosty, obvtown, rf, ray, clearly town, frost, totally subliminal town read manipulation.

[RayFrost]

I didn't check vote counts so much as using what I remember of people's postings. I just don't get the feeling that, at this point in time, bjc is as likely to be scum as the wagon would make it seem. He's low hanging fruit which has been bobbing in the wind on a weak branch all day. If he's scum, it's only a matter of time before he falls. And if he's town then naturally we don't want him to die.

I feel like, comparatively speaking, bjc, aside from pisskop, is the least likely of the people that have been up for lynch in the recent posts to actually be scum. There's simply not enough oomph to anything on him, and there's a limit to how willing I am to let my initial suspicions on bjc tint my view of him. I'd rather give him more time to assert presence in the game, whereas there are other people that I feel are more explicitly likely to be scum. Lynch scum, leave bjc alive to give a bit more time for my read to solidify, and then move on from there.

I can see the case for sakura to an extent, and I'm willing to vote to avoid a no lynch, but I'd still heavily prefer either tiershift or dogem. I'd go into a full case but lately I've been a bit too tired to really do the reading and linking and coding and etc. I think I might have the energy either tomorrow or on Saturday (tho I have a date Saturday night).

[RayFrost]

I try to understand this. So, because you haven't been able to drop any associative tells, you think that bjc is not scum?

What I don't understand is all the townreads that koppie has been getting all of a sudden. How did he go from flailing scum to obvtown? Can someone assemble a summary or something?

I think you mean "notice" instead of "drop" there. The answer in short is "I, like the wagon, have been unable to feel fully convinced that he should be lynched despite the many cases for it and so feel that at this point in time the lynch would be a bad choice"

I've been consistently reading him as town. The people who thought he was scum haven't been posting as actively as the people that think he's town. Which gives the illusion that he's getting a lot of townreads.

[RayFrost]

Posts like this one actually read as genuine. There's very few instances where scum will want to come into the game and basically say "screw you those two guys scummy as hell" as their first reaction. Too much antagonism.

I see no motivation for pisskop to be willing to consider bjc as town in his early posting given that it hurts his position in terms of counterwagons if he's scum.

Putting ika on the scum list along with nacho is also something that can only hurt his position if he's scum. (I'm willing to take a weak argument that I did the ika stuff and he's just trying to copy me to get town cred, but nacho's his own thing outside of that)

He's putting in effort and being active, even if his ability to write and make sense is not quite up to the standard that we might like to uphold. I can understand why some of you have difficulty getting through the writing to actually get to the meaning. Doesn't mean the meaning isn't there.

I also think you guys should give points to koppi because I'll have you note that he calls out hana's slot. His post after is confusing, but the post I linked is the important bit. All of you on hana's ass that don't see the towniness in kisspop should at least see a little bit of the genuine originality and effort that I've been seeing off of the fact that he brings something up about someone you guys are just now starting to bring things up about.

[RayFrost]

Wiat wa. Okay, I should have waited until I was fully awake to write that post. My bad, I mixed you and someone else in my head (and I actually thought the hana wagon got more steam than that).

[RayFrost]

How about some thoughts to go with those posts.

[RayFrost]

I'll get to this game later. I've been hella busy.

[RayFrost]

It was the alternative to "supremely fucking busy"

I self-censor a fair bit because swearing often doesn't help get points across.

[RayFrost]

I am from California, but I don't see a reason to call it Cali (for several reasons, including the fact it's a SoCal thing to call it Cali).

I have lived in Japan for almost half my life now, so I'm not really culturally from there. I have a day to deal with so I'm off for a while. I'll see yah in like one or two days, unfortunately too busy for before that.

[RayFrost]

Due to interaction (or specifically lack thereof) between abott / tiershift combined with the fact I still am townreading pisskop, I'm currently on the side of the fence known as "sakura is scum"

It's kind of unfortunate for sakura that her play itself isn't terribly scummy to me, but the way tier interacted around abott and abott's play in general (given the shifty lynch) reads as scumtelly to me, sooooooooo yeah.

[RayFrost]

Wisdom, doesn't this make you 2/2 for playing with me as town and reading me as scum? Or is it 3/3 at this point?

It's been too long for me to remember. Welcome to the game by the way. How yah been?

Lack of presence in this game is due to lack of time. Shrug.

[RayFrost]

I'd like to think that I'm subtle as scum. Wisdom just always reads me as scum regardless of alignment. It's like gambling.

I don't really understand what you're trying to say in the rest of your post.

[RayFrost]

Wisdom regardless of alignment has to try and get me lynched without fail.

It's like a universal law.

[RayFrost]

I don't.

I just like expressing my innate distaste for wisdom's inability to see any towntells in how I play (it's not really good manipulation if I'm being completely up front with what I want / am thinking is it or blatant about not being up front is it?). I mean, I absolutely despise certain players' playstyles and find them difficult to read, but I still end up being able to at least get a certain grasp for the differences between town / scum play for a lot of them (except people that have a playstyle of simply lurking). He's gotta learn how I work at some point.

Also, wisdom mentioned two games that we've been in together. I believe they're the only two aside from this game, but I can't remember. It's been way too long.

[RayFrost]

"I always feel like Ray is manipulative in his posting because he writes a lot" isn't really something that I can reply to. I actually explain what I have to say. Whoopdedoo.

"His defense of pisskop feels like whiteknighting" is again something I can't reply to. It isn't. Man, such rebuttal much wow.

On the silence point: I've been busy and expressed being busy in thread several times, but I guess that, if you aren't ever actually reading my posts, you wouldn't know.

[RayFrost]

Wrong thread, nacho.

[RayFrost]

I meant "wrong train of thought." I'm kinda loopy right now cuz I've been working all day on shit.

If you're going to say that you don't like something, you shouldn't be hedging your bet with "necessarily" - do you like it or not? Why?

Also, I expect you'll give thoughts on other things one post at a time so I'll leave you to it.

P-edit: I think abott / hana is scum almost completely off of abott's posting, hana was somewhat townish but not enough to override my feelings on the matter of abott / tiershift interactions being so minimalistic especially after tiershift said that he feels scumbuddies should avoid commenting on each other (which I imagine he'd express to abott in their mafia qt and lead to a bit more likely of a lack of interaction from abott).

I also am heavily completely thoroughly against pisskop because I just simply flat out don't see him as scum. I don't give a damn if you think it's white knighting or not. His posting is of a similar level of genuine helpless helpfulness and somewhat out-of-logical-bounds thinking that permeated the game you and I just finished with him.

[RayFrost]

I replied to all the portions of what he said. I just really have a grudge against blind-tunnels from people who are self-aware of their own bias. I mean, at a certain point, there should be somekind of adjustment in how you view things.

But he's not and it bugs me. I still think the slot is town, and I expressed that before I thought but I guess not.

Also, I have to reply to a shitty tunnel if it's getting weight based off of other people being like "yeah sure I guess why not" about it.

[RayFrost]

I don't know why he'd be so confident in defending pisskop. Maybe because it's easy to say someone's town when other people are saying the same thing already?

I mean, it's not like he was the first person to argue the position (IIRC, I was).

And I'm not saying I don't get why people are expressing a willingness to go along with wisdom. I get it. It's scum lynched day 1 and a lot of people seem town, so it's simple to just lazily go with someone else's suggestion if you don't have anything strong to go off of. Doesn't make it any less tiresome to be on the receiving end of.

[RayFrost]

I don't remember his rob defense, I'll have to take a look at that.

Wisdom, I expressed that I would prefer a sakura lynch and explained why. Two or three times now, I think.

Will get to the whole being super active and actually catching up to where I should be on a day I'm not as dog-tired.

[RayFrost]

Although I'm willing to die for the sake of clearing the air, I'd like to at least request that you guys wait until I have time to do a post with my full reads on everyone so that I can at least leave something recent in that regard before my death.

I should have time in the next couple of days to compile and post it with reasons and shit.

[RayFrost]

Although I'm willing to die for the sake of clearing the air, I'd like to at least request that you guys wait until I have time to do a post with my full reads on everyone so that I can at least leave something recent in that regard before my death.

I should have time in the next couple of days to compile and post it with reasons and shit.

I'm vanilla.

Fuck it. Wisdom can be 2/2 for lynching me-town for the same reasoning. Start at "ray is scum" go forth with confirmation bias. It's not a major loss for town since there's still time.

If you aren't willing to wait a couple of days for me to have the time / energy to read through, then that's on you.

[RayFrost]

And you'd be wrong.

But hey.

Emotional transparency is never clear.

[RayFrost]

Nacho is probably town.

Wisdom seems scummier out of this.

Pisskop is just... pisskop. Hopefully he'll learn that hammers are not good things and that listening to wisdom is not wise.

[RayFrost]

gg

Pisskop is unlynchable because he's town, if he's scum then maybe he'll be lynchable because he probably won't be as obviously town

If anyone has a request wrt getting advice or feedback about the play or whatever, then I can give what I remember.

[RayFrost]

I def can't read RayFrost though, and I imagine I'll always keep scumreading him. He just sounds manipulative.

Too many words or do I legitimately sound manipulative aside from the fact I write a lot?

Cuz if it's aside from the fact I write a lot, it's probably due to my way of expressing my points by doing quotes and having it not be the exact words said but whatever interpretation I have of them.

[RayFrost]

ffery, I noticed the difference in play for pisskop between the two games (I was actually IN his first game, which helps) but the "feel" of his posting was the same despite the slight differences in everything else. If you get what I mean. At a base level, the angle he seemed to be coming from was the same.

[RayFrost]

Probably.

[RayFrost]

To be a mod for newbies, you have to have experience as a mod for other games (open game modding is the most common), and then you get reviewed to make sure that you upheld the Modding Quality necessary to be a newbie mod (consistent vote counts, no major fuck ups in the game, etc).