Mini Normal 2115: Fin

[ObviousScum]

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[ObviousScum]

Anyway my scum PT has been really quiet and unhelpful so I have no idea who I'm supposed to mislynch here, anything I should know before I make a decision?

[ObviousScum]

Fair. Sorry it's just from the copypasta

hmm what to replace it with in the future though

VOTE: macabre

[ObviousScum]

Are there any claims?

[ObviousScum]

For what?

[ObviousScum]

Why, in your view, would I be modkilled for that post?

[ObviousScum]

Ok Luca's town, I think he actually believed the copypasta was a scumclaim

[ObviousScum]

Luca who is your top town rn?

[ObviousScum]

Sure, sure, but let's pretend for a moment that I'm not going to be modkilled. Who's your top town rn?

[ObviousScum]

Mod does not have to modkill someone that breaks no site rules. Claiming scum is neither against the specific rules of the game nor site rules.

Conversely, discussing moderator actions is against the rules of the game.

4. Rule violations will be dealt with based upon severity at the sole discretion of the Mod or in conjuction with the relevant Listmod.
5. Any situation not specifically covered in the above Rules is subject to Mod discretion and will be handled as the Mod sees fit to address. Live with it.

So, you can continue discussing a moderator action that is not actually going to occur, or you can play according to the game rules and not discuss moderator actions.

[ObviousScum]

I actually agree. I had reported the post but he has compromised his slot. If scum mod has to modkill. If town, mod confirms he’s town by not modkilling

this is probably also town but an incredibly bad post

[ObviousScum]

Ame can you snapshot your Egix case for me?

[ObviousScum]

Why insomnia?

[ObviousScum]

Is there any consensus on which of the two kills was likely vig vs scum?

[ObviousScum]

ok that changes things for me a little bit, thanks

[ObviousScum]

Ame do you have a backup scum?

[ObviousScum]

I think you're 0/2 actually so maybe could I just get a readslist from you?

[ObviousScum]

SKs aren't allowed in 13p norms so Vig is IC right?

[ObviousScum]

The vig is not claimed right?

[ObviousScum]

Why are Looker and ELA cleared?

[ObviousScum]

VOTE: ELA
Wimpy where are you on this slot?

[ObviousScum]

Luca / egix / looker towncore
Wimpy -- 701 more likely to come from town imo
Birb-- terrible iso but aaron's early townread looks like a transparent pocket attempt at a glance. Not fully exculpatory tho
ame -- still thinking about this


Profii / insomnia / ela

I am absent reasons to townread these three atm so if anyone wants to enlighten me I'm all ears

[ObviousScum]

Part of me thought of a reason profii might be scum but its probably too dumb to put into words lol

[ObviousScum]

I don't think you're scum I just don't have much room left in poe and I haven't found town in you yet

You agree on Ame's assessment that a21 was the vig kill?

[ObviousScum]

The vig is not claimed right?

Why care if the vig is claimed?

Solving the game with an IC is easier than not solving with an IC? One fewerslot to sort

also ame's confidence on the vig shot made me think I'd missed something tbh

[ObviousScum]

Ela do you have reads?

[ObviousScum]

Yeah I wasn't asking the vig to claim I was asking if the vig had claimed

[ObviousScum]

What

[ObviousScum]

I wasn't suggesting anything I was asking a basic fact question so I didn't have to dig through 30 pages to find out whether there was a claimed ic

[ObviousScum]

Ela do you have reads?

Stop asking weird questions and answer this please

[ObviousScum]

Alright well I'd like your observations about profii and insom when you can

[ObviousScum]

But anyway why would town ever advocate a modkill in any situation. If the person is town we risk killing 2 town in one day. If they are scum we lose information that a lynch would have gained.

Though scum also wouldnt push a modkill if it was their partner.

I was thinking Luca thought I was scumclaiming like aaron and the game had gone full stupid. His response oozes town tbh

Wimpy I'm a little less sure of but he definitely has 0% interest in pocketing me so I'd say that's a little townie too. Only problem would be if he thought I was gonna get townread for it then he could be scum-annoyed, but tbh I don't see it

[ObviousScum]

What

If they claimed, why wouldn't they be dead is the point.

why would they? Are you assuming town has no protective?

Actually yeah vig+doc too strong for norms? Maybe

[ObviousScum]

enough for him to fake a slip?

why would somebody fake a slip?

to gain some leverage against town?

you're townreading EVA for this?

[ObviousScum]

Why are Looker and ELA cleared?

Looker actually is a viable option. I'll change my back up to her. She can only be scum with you or Egix though, so the best play is all to lynch you vig Egix.

Insomnia led the lynch on Aaron. EV threw shade at a concensus town read for voting Aaron and so is pseudo confirmed to me.

OK, well town has a mislynch. So now it's day 3 and me and Egix are both flipped town. How do you re-evaluate the game now?

[ObviousScum]

Can you walk me through why 383 is town indicative because I'm not seeing it with my current context

[ObviousScum]

I don’t like this post

well he refused to give me a list

[ObviousScum]

Fair, mostly I'm trying to see if Ame can imagine scenarios outside his current groove so I was being provocative. I do think Egix is town tho

[ObviousScum]

I'm gonna hold off on talking more about Egix and Looker until they've checked into the thread but I guarantee you they are not S+S and I know I am town so you still have another scum to find Ame, even if I'm wrong on one of the two.

[ObviousScum]

Your predecessor scumread profii - what is your view of him?

Luca / egix / looker towncore
Wimpy -- 701 more likely to come from town imo
Birb-- terrible iso but aaron's early townread looks like a transparent pocket attempt at a glance. Not fully exculpatory tho
ame -- still thinking about this


Profii / insomnia / ela

I'm not sure I've seen anything to move me very far from here

bottom line is poe not scumreads though

I don't loathe profii/ela but I kinda have to consider the possibility that Ame refusing to move outside his bad pool is wolf-induced. I kinda like his tone today in a few posts for town though and he certainly has the wim of a winning town so mixed feelings there

also I kinda feel like the assertion I'm "trolling" is misleading. I did a copypasta opening post but I feel like my play since then has been pretty normal?

[ObviousScum]

bottom line is poe not scumreads though

That's probably an all town PoE.

you're on profii town now?

[ObviousScum]

Anyway since I can't really think of a reason why this needs to stay hidden I'll say that I'm in a hood with Egix and Looker. The PT has been pretty dead and there were 0 attempts to pocket there. So the idea that I'm the lone town in a setup with 2 scum neighbors and neither tried to pocket me or engage the PT at all is basically unthinkable to me. There is no way Egix + Looker is S/S

I kinda think Looker is town independently and Egix just doesn't feel like the one scum neighbor in a 2 town hood tbh

[ObviousScum]

VOTE: Ame

[ObviousScum]

what if you are the lone scum in the neighborhood?

what is the point of this question?

[ObviousScum]

bart scum read egix. what did he say in the neighborhood about that?

literally nothing

[ObviousScum]

actually that's incorrect, when egix said "hi" to the hood Bart said "classic scum opening post" and then voted him but I kinda thought it was a joke

[ObviousScum]

Ame is wolfy

[ObviousScum]

OK so now I have one scum, so two town in profii/insomnia/ela

Ame+?

[ObviousScum]

Ame+Insomnia is out

[ObviousScum]

Ame is wolfy

how is he wolfy?

He's persistently insisted that his entire solve is within OS+Egix+Looker. Presented with new information (3-man hood) that both undermines parts of his reasoning (associatives/subtext of the pair) and strongly suggests his full solve is not correct he immediately doubles down on his push with 0 reexamination or questions for clarification. That's the opposite of a town reaction and outside my threshold of a town tunnel

Also his EoD posts yesterday were awful and I was only giving him a pass because of his tone today so this is now a pattern of open wolfing

[ObviousScum]

so you think ame bussed frost yesterday?

Yep

[ObviousScum]

Chara push was scummy more than anything else but his lack of reevaluation right now is not something I buy for a town tunnel

[ObviousScum]

Chara push was scummy more than anything else but his lack of reevaluation right now is not something I buy for a town tunnel

you being a neighbor doesn't warrant re-evaluation.

his entire poe all being in a hood together should, his poe that he has been very insistent on since "everyone" else is town

[ObviousScum]

i still think you and looker can be scum. I will be happy with your lynch. I'd rather birdman but you are a good lynch. your reason to town read the neighbors doesn't hold much water so...

okay well I'm also a night 2 neap and a night 2 neapolitan being in a hood with 2 people would suggest that, given the incredibly limited power of a night 2 neapolitan, that the other two people in the hood are therefore town. Since they cannot be mechanically solved through what is (likely?) the only town investigative but inform the night 2 neapolitan that they cannot be investigated, thus making the only "false" guilty the neap will get being the vig

n2 neap + hood {cannot be innod} + hood {cannot be innod} + vig + {maybe one more town power?}
vs.
ascetic goon {can claim negative utility to avoid guilty} + goon + goon

ascetic goon with claimed negative utility + hooded scum would be too much power for scum, so setup spec given what we know strongly implies egix + looker are both town

[ObviousScum]

this is good tho because there's almost guaranteed to be no good protective in this setup so idgaf if you mislynch me, mislynch me, let scum kill me, I'm not alive tomorrow so I'm not going to be a problem

but assuming egix + looker flip scum after my flip because of 3-man hood = 1 must be scum logic and you will wrestle defeat from the jaws of victory in this game

[ObviousScum]

sorry adrenaline pumping that sentence didn't really make sense

"assuming one out of egix + looker WILL flip scum after my flip because of 3 man hood logic" ... etc. etc.

[ObviousScum]

srs talk tho, suggestions for what to replace for 'c---' in the copypasta?

[ObviousScum]

scum neapolitan is also possible. claiming roles does not save you from the gallows.

yeah I know I figured I was gonna get lynched with this role. I thought about claiming bp but was worried that would mess up the setup spec on the hood. I do think n2 neap strongly implies two town in the hood. If I'm wrong on setup spec then I guess I'm wrong on Egix but I have a strong theory that he's town too.

[ObviousScum]

Chumps goes well with the scumbag theme

solid nom, I might go with that

[ObviousScum]

VOTE: Chara

Lynching Chara brings now victories than lynching Aaron. Optimal game theory wise.

just saying, town is almost never THIS greedy

this is scum overreacting to aaron fakeclaiming and trying to regain control of the game

I don't have any back ups, no. I have a town read on everyone else. Your best option would be to push for profii or Macabre. Maybe wimpy? Insomnia and Luca are more or less cleared from the Aaron wagon. Honestly you replaced into quite a tough spot. (Also thank you for doing so and putting in the effort. It would have been cool to see you play from the beginning).

townreads ELA off one post and doesn't bother mentioning it after a direct ask for PoE

@Obvs https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11531677

Alch was vigged. Chara was killed for fake crumbing PR.

Thought he was town for this post but over-confidence on night action spec with 0 discussion feels weird to me too

OS dying words: ~This slot isn't town~

Later, the mod: "Ame flipped VT"

OS in graveyard: "Don't care, he's still scum"

[ObviousScum]

how about don't use copypasta whatever that is anyway

why play mafia

I know this room ended up having like no sense of humor but most of the site isn't as square as you and luca lol

[ObviousScum]

Any votes on Luca after my flip should be taken as scumclaims btw that slot is IC

[ObviousScum]

Because you’re game-throwing, using foul language and trolling the game. You should be banned as well as modkilled.

this never, not in a million years, comes from scum that knows a townie is shitposting

[ObviousScum]

eh, that is something I actually would do as scum. as scum i do things that I know people town read

I mean... you did, you kinda bandwagoned on to me with the modkill talk

Wimpy I have you as town why are you trying to sabotage my townread with my dying breaths

[ObviousScum]

lol wow what a bad post

[ObviousScum]

0/5, every single point not only wrong but awful

[ObviousScum]

1 - I absolutely would do the copypasta given it gave me my first two reads
2 - I townleaned you and birb has a terrible vote history and nothing town indicative in iso so it was a perfectly fine first vote given townleaning you was my entry into the game. Saying I haven't tried to sort people is a straight up insult and you should be ashamed because that's just gross. I replaced into a game and within a day have a full readslist and a strong townblock. Where the fuck are the lists I asked for from literally everyone else in the game, huh? How many of my BASIC fucking questions were straight up ignored? For someone that is in a hood with 2 people and apparently have a scum buddy with a scum PT do you honestly think I get annoyed because I can't figure out whether there is even a vig claimed or not since no one will give me a straight answer?
3 - Dumb
4 - No I didn't, that's my assessment of his play. You can disagree but calling me a liar for it is dumb
5 - Dumb

Impressively bad post there buddy

[ObviousScum]

I disagree with every single one of Wimpy’s posts but he might be right on Obs, virtue of sheeping Ame.

he could be but I don't know why literally anyone is sheeping the guy who wanted to redirect a scumclaim onto Chara, Ame's play has either been wolfy or atrocious, either scenario his reads today are bad

[ObviousScum]

In other news, I have no idea whether to believe the neapol claim or not. I ended up not seeing it until after I posted my vote and then spent 10+ minutes sat there with my head in my hands unable to decide.

okay then realize I'm town independently of the claim, you're voting me right now because you think I lied about thinking Ame's reaction to the hood claim was awful?

[ObviousScum]

Like even if I'm wrong on Ame he still probably needs to go for town to win (no offense)

[ObviousScum]

I thought that you were misrepping him in an effort to get gullible townies to swing the lynch the other way

I mean, it's possible I lost my patience with a tunneling townie, but without other strong scumreads I feel pretty good about being right that he's just open wolfing. His response to hood claim was the scummiest, most self-serving, agenda-driven response to anything in the game that comes to mind.

that being said if he is T it's always possible scum will just sit on the sidelines here so *shrug*

I do think Ame/ELA fits with Ame refusing to even acknowledge ELA's existence and going with a "everyone in the game is town" off one non-TI post. He's been cagey and evasive with his reads which is really surprising for someone happy to wallpost a single person

[ObviousScum]

I don’t think Obs lied about the actual claim, the only thing would be whether or not he lied about his alignment.

hmm, scum gets neap + 2 hoodies. from a design perspective it's possible but it seems like giving scum a lot of info to me, especially when there's already the ascetic.

In a scenario where I'm scum, town investigative is a... PT cop maybe? 1 scum in the hood, 2 hoodies, so one scum is protected and 2 are guiltied by PT cop? if so, why give scum an investigative when they already have the ascetic + the hood to rebuff the pt cop?

otherwise maybe gunsmith I guess, if this was going to be classic GS + vig setup, but if so I still don't know why scum neap gets added to a 2 town hood. I guess it's possible but doesn't really match what I'd expect from a norm I guess

[ObviousScum]

For someone that qq'd about a copypasta you sure give yourself a lot of leeway to act like a prick

[ObviousScum]

Wimpy's still probably town I just don't know why he decided to pick a personal fight with someone about to die, weird attitude to the game I guess

[ObviousScum]

Like I just don't think a night 2 neap gets put in a game with an ascetic goon and 2 hoodmates where 1 is a goon thus reducing chance of quasi-guilties down to 1/9

It's possible, I have seen some pretty bad normal setups. And maybe the philosophy was, "okay will this increases the likelihood of getting a single inno much higher, since most of the 8 are vts so its very likely to hit a vt. and the job of the n2 neap is just to find a single vt"

I guess it depends on what else is in the setup. Like if there's a GS on top of it, then neap's chances would be: 13 players - self - 2 hoodies (including 1 scum in this scenario); ascetic goon, goon, vig, {gs, or something else, whatever}, with ~6 vts to get innos on. So then the GS would be the main invest and the job of the neap is to get a single inno. OK I guess that's fine, but it feels like a bad setup. Setting up a role that has 6/10 chance of inno and 50/50 chance of miller on quasi-guilties just doesn't really feel like a good setup design-wise, but that's just based on what I know of the setup right now. scum neighbor + scum ascetic feels like too much wifom/defensiveness against the single investigative role that rn I know exists

[ObviousScum]

I'm just going to stop responding to you I think. I don't really think you've crossed a line but I don't see anything of what we're saying to each other here helping the town

[ObviousScum]

I know it's a self-serving argument to say "well I think neap for scum on top of ascetic is too strong and neap for town with scum hoodie is too weak for town" but that's basically where I'm at. That being said there's several factors that could kinda reshape that view

Outside of setup spec Looker just has a slightly townie vibe to me, maybe he was just trying to pocket JT with his early posting but I feel like that sort of "ima townread this person for lulzy reasons" in a game where he's not super into the game is +rand town

Egix is trickier but with setup spec leading me to think he's town I don't really see anything in his iso that makes me think scum and the way he responded to alch's push could be town indicative

I'm still more or less okay with my townblock and I think Ame trying to lynch inside my townblock exclusively is pretty wolfy given his unwillingness to seriously engage in re-evaluation

[ObviousScum]

I guess the counter-argument is "Ame did re-evaluate because he wanted looker and egix to both vote OS" but that's not at all a natural re-evaluation to new information, I'm pretty sure town there goes "oh my entire poe is inside a hood, maybe I talk about that a little bit" but he didn't want to talk about it he wanted to push a speed-wagon and shut down conversation which is basically what I see a wolf doing when his tunnel is compromised. It felt like a scummy automatic reaction to evidence being proposed that contradicts or complicates his solve rather than a town reaction, particularly when his solve is at least partly contingent on presumed associatives

[ObviousScum]

If he had a poe outside of the three, then yes, saying "Obum scum and I guess egix and looker town" would make sense because then he'd just move up on his list. But he refused to give a list and has insisted there was no scum outside of the three. For Ame, who is an analytic player, this is significant new information that suggests his view of the gamestate is in error and thus he needs to re-evaluate. If he was town he would process the information rather than immediately dismiss the larger implications or think about his read of his slot given the importance of associatives to his case overall

[ObviousScum]

like the dude writes a 5 paragraph essay at end of day yesterday about his solve but can't produce a list on day 2 at all? that's what I expect to see from scum that wants to powerwolf but doesn't want to sabotage their endgame, not from town solving organically

[ObviousScum]

I don't have any back ups, no. I have a town read on everyone else. Your best option would be to push for profii or Macabre. Maybe wimpy? Insomnia and Luca are more or less cleared from the Aaron wagon. Honestly you replaced into quite a tough spot. (Also thank you for doing so and putting in the effort. It would have been cool to see you play from the beginning).

@obvs I don't think it's possible for you to both flip town so the hypothetical isn't something I'm willing to work through. If one of you flips town, then Looker is scum.

383 is town because it was in the midst of an aggressive push on Aaron. It was likely Aaron was going to be lynched and I was a concensus TR at that point. ScumEV wouldn't have made that post in that situation as it would have been putting themselves unnecessarily in the spotlight.

@Somni, there's nothing about profii's posts that could have given Egix a town read. His general town vibes post is fabricated. (If I'm incorrect about Egix, then Looker would be JTBs mate since they've been fake crumbing Masons.)

#wolfing

[ObviousScum]

Yeah sorry about the slip, that was not intentional

[ObviousScum]

Where are you guys getting this setup spec material to justify your cases with "balance"? I don't like having to relinquish my opinions to others because I don't mod games.

that's mostly just me, and my setup spec is flawed anyway since I don't know whether town has two more weak PRs or one more strong PR

I just think making an all town hood with a n2 neap kinda makes sense because the neap is already so weak you want to give it a hint about who it can hit. I don't think you would punish the neap in that scenario by putting them in a scum hood. But that's an argument from what I see as being fun for the town in conjunction with a sense of balance so this isn't like a 'purely objective' perspective it's more just my take on the setup

[ObviousScum]

Ame even though I think you're scum here I do think you're a cool guy and hope to see you around after this

If you want to sell me on profii scum I'm listening, like in a world where I'm wrong on you I guess I go profii/ELA?

[ObviousScum]

n2 nea in a 3-man hood

[ObviousScum]

218 actually was one of the posts that pinged me, scum very often like to 'pair' their questions to scum buddies, so doubling one question to a scum buddy with one question to a townie is like, pretty common. I don't know why exactly scum do it but they do tend to think it's better to not only talk to their scum buddy in one post

[ObviousScum]

I'm kinda indifferent to the pressure or feel of pressure at the time, I think scum very often pressure each other day 1 especially if they plan on powerwolfing so that argument doesn't really do much for me. The way it is written is kinda scummy though which is more noticeable to me

[ObviousScum]

are we looking at the same 218? I don't understand how it's harsh -- "could you clarify"?

sorry maybe I'm lacking the nuance of the context but it looks very much like an s/s post to me

[ObviousScum]

I guess I feel like you're assuming greater scum coordination. Ame might have pushed at it thinking Aaron would be able to explain in greater detail and the interaction would look like solving but it might have come off as harsher than intended since we now are more aware of Aaron's capacity to scumslip. I don't see it as being an intrinsically "harsh" question or outside the range of a strong scum player. The phrasing "could you clarify" also just feels kinda s/s to me so the "harshness" of the earlier post feels more muted

[ObviousScum]

if Ame is scum, he's in a powerscum mentality in the ballpark of like saudade or mariar, and both of them would definitely make a post like that toward a partner as s/s

so if you feel like you wouldn't make that play as scum, I believe you, but I don't really think it's outside the range of a power player

[ObviousScum]

Yes, I must indeed be square to not have found your 'copypasta' utterly hilarious.

I'll make a mental to note to type 'LOL' the next time I see it.

See, how hard was that? Clearly we're on the same page now :3

[ObviousScum]

(Also tbh Insomnia's points on Aaron went over my head until I sat down and reviewed them. At the time of my vote I was just sheeping to see where things went).

yeah this was the other townie part of your iso actually. but I'm curious what you think after you've had some time

[ObviousScum]

yeah 412 is awful, I mentioned I thought I was gonna get lynched right lol

profii and insomnia reads are the only things that might make it not 0/4 in my mind and we don't actually have conf on either of those yet

what's sad is if I argue that he's right on profii it almost makes that post look scummier

[ObviousScum]

@Obvs I don't know what you mean since Aaron has already flipped.

I'm confused by your confusion :3

[ObviousScum]

I don't think aaron faked the slip. I don't think they force a wagon on themselves before l-1, that just seems transparently anti-fun even for a gambit. And if they were going to fake a slip they'd probably fake something that only their teammate would notice at first, not such a transparent scumclaim. The towncred for catching and reacting to the slip is gonna be pretty minimal in that situation

[ObviousScum]

Macabre is town. This is a 100% serious read.

V/LA today. Be back tomorrow.

this doesn't look like a pocket to you looker? you think he took a strong townread for meme reasons on a buddy?

[ObviousScum]

Colonel - Alchemist
Chimera - profii
Scarf Boy - Ame
Sleepy boy - insomnia
Burger - Wimpy
Hydra - Looker

even with this still have no idea

[ObviousScum]

macabre is there an updated guide to your meme somewhere other than that

[ObviousScum]

seal = ELA probably

think I'm the "mysterious one" but for a second I thought I was hedgehog too

not sure on one eye, dead eye, or divine one

[ObviousScum]

[ObviousScum]

I gotta respect your level of commitment
Looker -- Hydra
EeveeLution Army -- ???
Wimpy -- Burger
Ame -- Scarfboii
Luca Blight -- Knight
insomnia -- Sleepy boiii
OS -- Hedgehog/mysteriousone/seal?
profii -- Chimera
Egix96 -- [wolf]?

Macabre -- this crow

Aaron -- Ghost
Alchemist -- Colonel

not sure how to figure out ELA or what dead eye or one eye is still

[ObviousScum]

oh shit he's speculating about my main

hedgehog because of the slip LOL

that's why I have three names, he thinks I'm the divine one too? damn now I'm wondering who that would be

[ObviousScum]

The One-eye would not try to kill me, but this crow cannot share the same sentiment for the dead-eye. Mourn!

Chara wouldn't try to kill you but you're okay with the vig shot on Chara?

I think I get it now

[ObviousScum]

Yo, OS, can you explain to me how you immediately made the leap that the hood had to be all town?

The ascetic scum + my role being a shitty and heavily gated invest. Giving another scum a proven non-vt role seems like 'a lot' to give scum unless there's another invest in the game

Still I'm open to counter-arguments that this is a standard 2-town 1-scum hood game; neap in the hood probably designed to make it a 50/50 then. That is the conventional wisdom, I just have played in games that deliberately avoided that logic because it is conventional wisdom.

[ObviousScum]

If the bird could drop the fake post restriction and make posts I can actually understand, eh I’d still want him dead. All of his posts read to me like a Shakespeare novel and I wasn’t able to read those either.

Shakespeare wrote plays, not novels. The novel as a literary form did not emerge until about a century after Shakes was rip

[ObviousScum]

A question from this crow to this sleepy boy: does the alignment of this hedgehog matter not? Is this not the exact role and circumstance where the death of this hedgehog can tell us more about their alignment than their words could? Thought!

I think flips always tell you more about a role and alignment than words can

[ObviousScum]

Additionally, the claim of the neapolitan on part of the hedgehog could be considered a double catch on part of a criminal mind: consider the knowledge the evil ones among us had known from game start! Puzzle!

I don't follow

[ObviousScum]

Is "roman lover" implying that ela has a kinky relationship with his pokemon?

[ObviousScum]

This burger is approaching childlike levels of innocence. This crow is in c-awe of how any one person could be so innocent without it being illegal. Wonder!!!

Well I'm glad to see one townread although I feel like you're shading a lot of people without a clear hierarchy. Tbh it'd help to just have an ordered list

[ObviousScum]

It really is birdman and Bart now OS.

I’m pretty confident in that solve.

Bart?

[ObviousScum]

Locked on profii town. Reading through Aaron (

again

) it's clear that he had a lynch profii agenda.
Locked on Luca, Insomnia
Think it's highly unlikely EV or Looker are scum
Think it's unlikely Egix is scum

Locked on Obvscum scum.
Unable to PoE Wimpy and disregarding Aaron's RVS hard Mac TR. If Mac is Vig, then wimpy is scum.

Can you link the specific posts that you don't see as s/s for aaron on profii?

[ObviousScum]

Bussing is too dangerous when you aren't aware of potential PRs especially in early game as later on people are going to question why he hasn't been nked. If he were going to bus, it would be later in the game or if Aaron already had some suspicion. But even Aaron's advesary has a solid town read of him at the time. The fence sitting I read as a natural progression. I did read the interaction as t v t! I only looked deeper into it cause insomnia had anticipated that and his Aaron read seemed like the kind of read that comes from genuine insight.

@insomnia why are the universal town reads excluded for Obvs but not Looker?

That may be your reasoning but insomnia has hard bussed day 1 before. Then again he didn't win that game so no idea if he'd be in the mood to do it again. I'm not particularly scumreading somnia anyway but that's a ~meh~ reason to locktown him.

[ObviousScum]

checking the mini normal archives, games that started with 3 or more neighbors all had 1 scum in them. I feel comfortable enough with that data to roll with that theory, which is basically what I have been doing cause I think OS is definitely scum.

correction. I did find 1 all town

The game that did most deliberately screw with the "must be scum in 3 man hood" logic was a large as well so it's possible I'm used to games with a bit more leeway. Still, there's enough designers that like screwing with hood logic that I wouldn't take it for granted

[ObviousScum]

Yeah I fucking missed the mirror thing motion detector claim

and I would've gotten away with it

god damn it

Just needed to double down and bus pers too

Still it was fine I deserved that bus I was playing terrible

[ObviousScum]

Why are Looker and ELA cleared?

Luca / egix / looker towncore
Wimpy -- 701 more likely to come from town imo
Birb-- terrible iso but aaron's early townread looks like a transparent pocket attempt at a glance. Not fully exculpatory tho
ame -- still thinking about this


Profii / insomnia / ela

I am absent reasons to townread these three atm so if anyone wants to enlighten me I'm all ears

can you explain the shift in reads wrt looker here?

I opened looker's iso and saw him townreading bart for lulz reasons. Then again a lulz fake townread was literally the first thing aaron did so maybe that's not a good reason

[ObviousScum]

Yeah I fucking missed the mirror thing motion detector claim

and I would've gotten away with it

god damn it

Just needed to double down and bus pers too

Still it was fine I deserved that bus I was playing terrible

oh wait what, which head were you of that hydra?

The one that sheeped nsg on a vote she didn't make LOL

[ObviousScum]

NSG was in that game? lol let me re-read, did we off her n1?

She replaced in, did nothing, and afk'd out. But her predecessor had her vote sitting on someone and she never removed it and I tried to sheep that vote arguing it's what NSG wanted therefore it was a good push. #solidreasoning

[ObviousScum]

@insomnia

Please layout to me why 823 isn't an obvious pocket attempt. Do you think it's legitimate for Obvs to have cleared Looker based on his reasoning?

I love that you linked your own post responding to it instead of 823 itself :3

[ObviousScum]

Lmfao

tbh not having day chat was really bad there, i actually wanted to come out as the best lynch but while still spewing you hard but like i might've overdone it

yeah that and two of the hydra heads I was with looked at the red pm and immediately noped out of the game.

[ObviousScum]

How about the fact that he ignored he being confirmed to me? That's something I'd call out immediately as town. He didn't because he knows I may actually have a guilty.

Also the fact that his PoE is all town

People say someone else is "conf scum" literally every game. Maybe I've played with Boon too much but I ignore almost all softs from people who seem like they know what they're doing

I feel like you're copying my argument about PoEs

[ObviousScum]

The Luca TR is also TMI. Luca's response to his copypasta is the exact sort of post I would make as scum.

man this is the second person that has made this argument and I have to wonder like, how dirty do you people play this game? jeeez

Mac is over here observing that Luca is the "knight" and you're all like, "oh yeah Luca would fake a modkill request as scum ez"

[ObviousScum]

UNVOTE:

sure whatever

I'll reread Looker when I get home later

[ObviousScum]

{Egix, profii, Luca}
{EVL, macabre}

{Wimpy}

{Ame}
{Looker, Obvious Scum}

Actually, I'd like to replace EVL with profii there.

what has you reevaluating profii?

[ObviousScum]

OS-wimpy makes 1k more sense though!

now that's an all town poe

[ObviousScum]

When I'm SURE sure on something I'll make it explicit with key words such as "confident," "confirmed," and "locked."

To be clear, you're also asking why I ignored you saying I was "confirmed" to you?

[ObviousScum]

On the subject of Looker, I found their 497 weird on a few levels.

1) they say the timings of my interaction with Frost post-slip is weird, which implies a negative opinion, but then wonders aloud if it clears me. This is also odd because Looker never refers back to this opinion of me again, but continues in their neutral stance towards me.

2) disagrees with my point against JT, saying we shouldn’t ‘penalizse’ him for giving reads. Why should anyone not be held accountable for their reads? It’s what the game of Mafia is based on. I can’t grasp this mindset at all.

3) throws random shade at EV, when Looker has been as much a bystander this game.

why do people keep linking posts that are not the post in the number lol

yeah 497 does read kinda weird. it looks like it's gonna be shade on you but then it kinda isn't? or what is the point of the question at the end there

also adding the ELA question after the VC is just... idk weird. idk scummy but sometimes scum do 'just weird' stuff from cognitive load

[ObviousScum]

Can you even name a single protown thing he’s done? I doubt it

yeah the problem with his meme is that since it's so hard to decipher at the start it means he's had fewer substantive real time engagements which could also be making his reads shittier. it ends up positioning him more as a spectator

still anti-town/bad gimmick doesn't = scum all the time. (although the last time someone did this *particular* gimmick they were scum so *shrug*)

[ObviousScum]

I still think Aaron spews Mac town and given my lack of desire to reread Mac I am very tempted to just leave my read of him there tbh

[ObviousScum]

I can name 82. What you got?

even counting post 0 is savage

[ObviousScum]

My inclination was to townread for 216 because it seems like such a transparent pocket attempt (2scummy4scum). I still think there's a world where that's town indicative but I guess it's not as town-indicative for Looker as I thought it was at first (as town he's actually somewhat cautious with townreads). I still think it'd be a bit weird if both Aaron and Looker both opened the game by doing a meme townread but saying they wouldn't is the gambler's fallacy so *shrug*

319 is something that could come from scum looker, but 377 is the only crassness in the whole iso, whereas as scum looker tends toward hyperbole and aggressiveness

I have to agree with Luca that 497 is just a mess to comprehend

674 would have been better without the ABV

Thought a bit about 761 and the indication of being "lost" -- was tempted to townread but he's not very often "lost" in games as either alignment so nothing recent to compare to here. The last time he says something like this was back in 2010 where he happened to be scum but that's so long ago I doubt it's pattern indicative.

Overall it's tricky. There's not a lot of towngames to compare to in the recent iso, but there's a few tonal things absent from the scum games that I would expect to see here.

I guess I would say I'm less confident in him being town now that I've read his whole iso more closely and am not making a snap judgement off 216 but I don't think the tone issues I have with him are worse than those I sometimes feel about profii, or perhaps ELA.

[ObviousScum]

Permanent townread on the guy with the glasses - you make me feel comfortable. Beauty is really reassuring.

319 is something that could come from scum looker, but 377 is the only crassness in the whole iso, whereas as scum looker tends toward hyperbole and aggressiveness

...there's a few tonal things absent

this game

from the scum games

that I would expect to see here

based on his scumgames

.
[/quote]

ebwop

[ObviousScum]

wow f'd up that ebwop

w/e you probably can figure it out

[ObviousScum]

VOTE: profii

I've been thinking about this for a while and I think I'm gonna try it on for size and see how it feels

[ObviousScum]

also this is unrelated but are we like flipping a coin for genders

I get the impression no one cares but I feel like I keep saying "he" for looker and ame and then other people come in with "she"

maybe I should be defaulting to e for people with unlisted? hmmmmm

[ObviousScum]

Perhaps, but "try" would be the operative word there

[ObviousScum]

The subjectivity of it makes it insultingly inaccurate, but in a non-serious 'this is a game' type way. I don't really like being called aggressive.

I said you were only crass and aggressive as scum though

pErSpEcTiVe SlIp? nah probably not

really though I'm surprised, usually people say my meta is eerily accurate

[ObviousScum]

while going for a guilty would be snazzy, I actually think with vig still alive I should say I'm going to neap one out of wimpy or insomnia and ask the vig not to shoot either one

assuming there's the risk scum aims for vig and not me

doesn't make sense to gate the vig more than that I don't think

anyone disagree with that? the other option is to give the vig a "please shoot pool" (i.e., "please vig shoot inside looker, egix, mac, etc. etc.") but I think the result ends up being about the same either way. And given vig is confirmed it makes more sense to give me the more restricted pool

question is whether anyone would prefer I be fully leashed to wimpy so vig can include somnia in pool given that's Ame's preference. I think I would rather have a mech result on somnia personally but give I am not confirmed but vig is preference is given to that role

problem here is while I'm a very easy kill, scum probably can poe vig down to like 3 slots at most at this point which might be a gamble they're willing to take

[ObviousScum]

Conversely fully leashing me is slightly less optimal in the event of day 3 massclaim in a scenario where I am still alive tomorrow so I think a pool of 2 for me is better than a pool of 1 for solving purposes, so question of whether anyone other than Ame would actually want vig to have shooting sleepy boiiii be an option

[ObviousScum]

mmmmm yeah maybe we should just lynch Ame today :/

still want profii's response to wagon

[ObviousScum]

[(Ame/Profii)->Egix/Mac/Looker] would be my "please shoot" pool if we were doing one

[ObviousScum]

I am death immune, come at me

Stop being a fart and lynch OS with me.

I do find it odd that Ame consistently asks [his ~scumreads?~] to vote with him?

I feel like I need to reread to figure out if somni is actually a scumread for Ame or not but I feel like I shouldn't

[ObviousScum]

Question. How has this site not developed an auto vote counter?

They were going to include one with a full site overhaul but there haven't been any visible indications anything has been done irt the overhaul for like a year and a half or something

[ObviousScum]

Yeah anyone other than you

alternatively I could say I'm gonna check somewhere outside of {Ame+hoodfolk} and say vig have funnn!!!! :3

[ObviousScum]

So to be clear you're saying I'm scum with wimp and somni?

[ObviousScum]

Actually, according to Article 2, Paragraph 7 of the Mafiascum Terms of Service, Insomnia does in fact have a monopoly on gifs.

[ObviousScum]

I actually have no problem with being leashed to somni even though I'd say wimpy is the third dumbest vig shot in the game

[ObviousScum]

what is mac gonna do now? how will we identify The Artist Formerly Known as Scarf Boiiiii

[ObviousScum]

3. TMId Luca read.
Somni's rebuttal: none as of yet

4. Wanted to investigate his two strongest town reads

[ObviousScum]

Yeah, he's been trying to fish out an investigative since his claim saying things such as "unless there's another investigative >.>"

Yes, because if I'm looking for investigative CCs, I roleclaim a one-shot mid/low-level investigative

[ObviousScum]

So scarfboiiii remains scarfboiiii even tho there is no longer a scarf?

We could even make it extra confusing cause I'd say bandanna gurrrrl at this point

[ObviousScum]

Kinda tempted to vote Ame again for 1230 but I feel like it'd just be me shouting into the void lol

[ObviousScum]

I happened across a game where Looker stated she was a girl.

we're finally revealing the real mysteries of this game uwu

[ObviousScum]

dude that sounds like the opening lyrics to a theme song

Hiding in the shadows
Biding for the right time to strike

something something rhyme with shadows
something something rhyme with strike

VICIOUS! [guitar riff]

[ObviousScum]

Spoiler:

(7)

Ame

- ObviousScum, ObviousScum, ObviousScum, ObviousScum, ObviousScum, ObviousScum, ObviousScum -- Hammer

(3) Looker

- insomnia, Egix96, Ame

(2) Profii

- ObviousScum, Looker, Luca Blight

(1) Macabre

- Wimpy

Not Voting (4) — EeveeLution Army, Macabre, profii

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Ame was a

M a f i a G o o n

It is now night 42
Do not pass Go
Do not collect $200



Fast Night
Profii was shot by a vigilante
He was

M a f i a G o o n

Obvious Scum was shot by the scum
He was

G O A T

[ObviousScum]

I'm probably wrong on one but I can dream

[ObviousScum]

<3

[ObviousScum]

[ObviousScum]

I don’t know the whole fuzz about the neap checking top town etc, you’d have to spell it out for me

He put 0 thought into the challenge of choosing a neap shot with an unclaimed vig in the game. Since he is operating from the a prior i assumption I am scum, he assumes anything I propose would have a scum agenda, when this doesn't even really make sense. Or I guess he assumes I would play as an open wolf basically.

Imagine you are a neap in a setup with a mod-confirmed town aligned sane cop. In this scenario, you don't want to check your very top town (since you're sure they're town). But it makes no sense to go for your suspects because you don't get guikties. You want the cip to get guilties and, in this specific gamestate, the job of the neap actually is to get innos. Actually thinking that through is one reason I'm reconsidering my all town hood argument. It is contingent on vig being alive day 2 but maybe designers assumed vig would be alive day 2.

The vig basically is a cop that also happens to flip his target.

Now the problem for me is that while it's tempting to add people I personally townread into my neap pool (i.e. Mac) this prohibits the vig from making a choice to check there and 'full cop it'

What I don't like about Ame's play is that he doesn't actually suggest someone else I should be checking. If he was he'd say 'oh you should be checking mac, your more controversial townread' or something like that. But at the same time he's arguing you're scum, so that doesn't make sense since he is already pushing to move you out of the townblock.

Again for such an analysis driven player it's weird how shallowly he's approaching the gsmestate and how superficial his reaction was to an entirely reasonable proposal.

[ObviousScum]

Or you're not scum. I feel like ame has addopted schrodinger's law for his read of you lol

[ObviousScum]

It's not reasonable at all. I've made the same suggestions verbatim as scum. Saying that you're an inno checker rather than a guilt checker is semantics. In both cases you should investigate someone scummy.

Perhaps. So you would assert that neither wimpy or somni are scummy then?

[ObviousScum]

Me: Job of neap is to make a non-UTR mech town
Ame: So why are you neaping the people you townread? Also wimpy is scum and somni should be vigged.
Me: Job of neap is to make a

non-UTR

mech town
Ame: wHy ArE yOu So InCoNsIsTenT tHaT dOeSn'T mAkE aNy SeNsE?!!!!

[ObviousScum]

Yes but you're not getting killed by scum and I have to play around the possibility your reads are terrible and you happen to be town.

Even if your reads make you look scum but your wim leaves me unsure lol

[ObviousScum]

I still think profii is a bit more likely than looker

[ObviousScum]

why?

He got to l-2 without momentum and gave up on the game -- feels a bit like scum writing off the game after aaron's slip. Not a strong feel but that post made my gut twitch a bit

[ObviousScum]

Also this is like a super shitty reason but the speed with which he unvoted my wagon when I was getting run up felt kinda overly cautious, but not in a way that would have actually prevented me getting lynched or prevented him from getting back on if it looked like I was gonna go through

[ObviousScum]

maybe time for all to take an hour breather from the game?

[ObviousScum]

I'm still holding to my three.

Still don't know why you don't have Luca as town tbh

irt setup spec

Spoiler:

It's possible for all three Neighbours to be Town, here in an example of where it happened in a Mini Normal: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=37251

Another example: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=71119

but a lot of 3 man hoods do include a scumbutt

[ObviousScum]

Are neighbor alignments assigned by random?

no, everything will tend to reflect the design philosophy and what the review team finds acceptable

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=71119
in this setup all-town hood is paired with investigative since town has two separate roleblockers. if cop clears hood then he can claim results through them to dodge rb. it's kinda a weird setup because a lot of people don't like "follow the cop" as an archetype (doc+cop vs scum + rb). Hood is likely an addition to make up for the scum rb power being split between two slots

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=37251
this setup is just kinda weird. all man hood is pointless and there for wifom, maybe to screw up town thought process given scum also have a traitor scum have 1-shot rb and 1-shot rolecop! vs. no town invest? town only has even night vig and doc? to make up for the imbalance, one scum is traitor, but still, this is a very scumsided setup and kinda gross (some people in the thread said they liked it tho so taste may differ)

traitor also recruitable. 1543 is like a testament to not putting too much faith in setup spec as a case study I guess you could say and not assuming setups in normal queue will be good. Don't know any of the reviewers for this one but I am skeptical a setup like this would pass NRG today.

Subject: Mini 1543--Natirasha's On Parole!(Game Over)

like, seriously, if you're going to claim that goodfather's stuff re: neighbourhood is faked and therefore he was faking it, quote him

You quoted him for me.

He said "my understanding of neighborhoods is that one of you are scum". This doesn't assume neighborizer.
Then, he says "are one of you a neighborizer?". This doesn't make sense considering it wasn't yet night 3.
The inconsistencies are so blatant they sort of obviously scream bullshit: if he was trying to spread paranoia, why not just push the one scum in the neighborhood line and leave it at that?

game was lost lynching the final member of the hood, although not due exclusively to hood spec but rather because the last hoodie had made some dumb wifomy comments earlier in the game apparently

that being said I've kinda moved on from my setup spec argument, I'm willing to accept there could be scum in the hood, I just don't think looker is scummier than profii atm

[ObviousScum]

profii wouldn't claim vt because his role is

m a f i a g o o n

and he ain't no liar

[ObviousScum]

UNVOTE:

crumbs?

[ObviousScum]

well that explains why his unvote felt weird :/

hmmmmmmmmmm

[ObviousScum]

full ungated traffic analyst?

[ObviousScum]

actually don't answer that

[ObviousScum]

I neap somni/wimpy, lynch looker, if looker flip green shoot egix, go from there tomorrow?

I kinda believe profii, this explains one of the biggest pings, his crumb is good, and the fakeclaim for scum would be ~surprising

scum traffic analyst isn't impossible here, trying to decide if he reacts the way he does to my claim if so. is that how he would have reacted if he was expecting a mason claim?

and if he's [arguably] the strongest town investigative (given he didn't claim a gate) a bit surprising he was willing to just keel over and die

so still some problems but the thing that was pinging me onto his wagon is kinda weakened by this

[ObviousScum]

why exactly do you scumread me again?

[ObviousScum]

VOTE: Looker

[ObviousScum]

uhh yeah ya think a traffic analyst claim is gonna change things much?

[ObviousScum]

also the more I thought about neap/vig interaction it became more obvious that neap is supposed to go for town anyway so I've kinda accepted scum can be in the hood for a while since half the reason I thought that was an 'argument from fun' that hinged on the neap being the main town invest

[ObviousScum]

birb welcome to like 6 pages ago

[ObviousScum]

goon - scum ascetic - scum in hoood
TA - Vig - town hoody - n2 neap - 5 vts

5/9 chance of n2 neap getting an inno, 1/9 chance of getting a soft guilty
TA gets false guilties on hoodies, has no counter to ascetic, only one guilty on the goon
vig is the 'main' invest meant to solve the hood and other issues

probably no protective or other named/prs

[ObviousScum]

yeah this looks right to me, this passes nrg easy

[ObviousScum]

Green flip on looker, vig shoots egix (?)
Leash me to {wimpy, somni}
Leash profii to {Mac}

Red flip on looker, vig shoots {Ame, Mac}?
Leash me to somni
Leash profii to wimpy

??

[ObviousScum]

I'm not sure green flip scenario is right for vig but I'm also kinda not thinking looker flips green rn?

[ObviousScum]

Only problem with traffic analyst balance wise is it maybe gives too many innos but I'm just not gonna deal with that this dayphase tbh since profii looks significantly less scummy rn

[ObviousScum]

that's l-1 right?

[ObviousScum]

It's not impossible. But if there was a traitor I'd think it'd be Looker? I don't *think* they'd go traitor + ascetic + hooded scum vs. TA and n2 neap. That feels like too much

I'm inclined to say that the ascetic makes traitor on the unlikely side. In any case there's no need to worry about it until a scenario where the game isn't over tomorrow and profii is alive and has a result

[ObviousScum]

What are u claiming for n1 then?

[ObviousScum]

Omg I forgot ela was in the game

[ObviousScum]

Prbably need to adjust leash orders but too tired to do it tonight

[ObviousScum]

It would be ??? Foor this much invest power

[ObviousScum]

ame prolly ju st scumclaimed .

Cant type must sleep

[ObviousScum]

Scum tracker fits setup zzzzzzz

[ObviousScum]

Leash profii ame in case vig is odds?

[ObviousScum]

Or is that bad

That maybe bad idk cant think more

[ObviousScum]

what did u do night 1 aaaammmeeeeeee

[ObviousScum]

Did u murder my boiiii alch??

[ObviousScum]

Looooooooollllll

[ObviousScum]

Red flip:
Ame check egix
Profii check mac
I check ela
Vig shoots ame if vig can shoot

[ObviousScum]

Drugs, this is ATF!

[ObviousScum]

Idk wimpy and somni are both like paranoia checks