Micro 940: A Normal Blitz II - Game Over

[Hiraki]

Vote: humaneatingmonkey

[Hiraki]

actually, that's a fair point. It looks natural but questioning it at all is a little tactless.

I'm not voting due to the questioning, I'm voting due to the response.

Vote: humaneatingmonkey

Come back to us, we miss you already.

I miss not explaining.

idk guys earlier i was thinking of bringing it up but then i thought "but then their reaction would probably confirm it and i dont want to confirm it if it wasnt a joke"
so im not resonating

This doesn't sound like a town line of logic and it feels rather forced given the prior posts before it.

@Hoctac why are you voting Hiraki?

townpings of varying degrees on everyone but shiki and Hiraki of people who have posted thus far

yikes

I have like no read on anyone.

Also why are we wagoning the person who isn't even here? Lurking is bad but complete absence isn't lurking.

This is what concerns me. I'm in a similar camp (although I really do SR HEM) but Hoctac's post above gives me worse feelings. You can really get a "town ping" from everyone? Already? You know who's missing from that list? Madoka.

I don't like this

VOTE: Datisi

Why is it that both of your pings have been people who have voted/switched votes? Are you just paranoid?

I shall play my answer a question with a question card:

What do you think of Datisi's naked vote of trying to wagon Umlaut?

Terrible rationale here.

I'll introduce a third party and interject a question of my own:
Why are you squeamish about Datisi's naked vote and not mine? Why are you squeamish about wagons forming on people you have no reads on?

Unless you have a read on Umlaut?

Wow, maybe I am wrong.

Yes, I do think it's more accurate to say Hiraki is lurking than Madoka, which is why I think voting him and keeping my vote their is productive since it might produce some kind of actual pressure while voting Madoka is just a null-op.

i do not think hiraki's lurking is alignment indicative in the same way that i do not think hoctac's claiming masons is alignment indicative. hiraki is likely treating his vote as an egopost and waiting for the game to develop, which is in line with his play as either alignment.

thank you

[Hiraki]

This doesn't sound like a town line of logic and it feels rather forced given the prior posts before it.

What sounds like town line of logic here? Why did it feel forced?

I don't understand how townie thinking equates to "how does X see me" which your post implicates.

It indicates that you are playing objectively and are not so much concerned with how you are perceived.

It indicates the opposite.

I think a fair amount of pressure is good on Hiraki, though, because lurking is disadvantageous to the town.

This is scummy.

meta garbage pfffffffffffffffffffffffffffrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrttttttttttttttttt

I think Hiraki is currently a good place for pressure. I do not have any strong reads yet.

So pressure them?

Ohhhh so good Holden. I want you to take it a step further though.

Are you prosing that the lack of townping by hoctac on Madoka is associated? If so, how?

Perhaps. Something to keep in mind for the future rather than now. It just seems very weird and random and definitely a bad attempt at shade.

I don't think Holden is different. Just a little lighter which is nice.

UNVOTE: HEM

I forgot my vote was there

Yuck.

[Hiraki]

I do not understand the point of reading into the masons/neighbor/scumteam claim. This game will not be won over role speculation.

[Hiraki]

In what way?

idk guys earlier i was thinking of bringing it up but then i thought "but then their reaction would probably confirm it and i dont want to confirm it if it wasnt a joke"
so im not resonating

You are implying that this is objective based rather than perception based. I think we may just be thinking of the same idea with different terms. I am saying that he is objectifying his perception in order to look townie. You are saying that his perception is an object to use to look townie. In which case, we would be agreeing rather than what I stated.

In what way?

Very fake bandwagon-y, generic and incorrect. Again - not sure how I'm "lurking" especially in regards to what you had done up to that point in time.

What is this?

There was meta garbage in the middle of those posts that I skipped.

I like that he says he's in the same place I am on reads in 160 because we've been in the same place like that in past games where we were both town.

We have done this before and been on the flip side though. Not sure what your point is here.

it's forced and you know it

And? If it's forced?

i don't think it's exclusively scummy or anything. just that it gives context to the fact that disbelieving your claim is a valid town POV.

This is weird.

I could be game for George D2 but I think Monkey flips scum here D1.

[Hiraki]

One person that does a lot of meta persuades your opinion?

[Hiraki]

But this is a new game, where you're not supposed to know her alignment.

[Hiraki]

One person that does a lot of meta persuades your opinion?

But this is a new game, where you're not supposed to know her alignment.

This displeases me!

How does it displease you? Putting a dependence on a read on someone else's read isn't something you do as a first option. It's pretty close to the last option. The only thing HEM has against me is that I'm twisting his words - which, wait a second that sounds familiar -

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11703551

Oopsie.

[Hiraki]

Here, he's just putting malicious context in my post and completely ignoring the original context.

Really? "Putting malicious context in my post" is not you accusing me of twisting the meaning of your words? Really?

[Hiraki]

Really? "Putting malicious context in my post" is not you accusing me of twisting the meaning of your words? Really?

So is that scum indicative? Am I not correct?

Yeah but I'm not doing that.

[Hiraki]

No - the point of clarification is if something doesn't make sense. Your posts are clear.

[Hiraki]

Your thought process relies on how you are perceived. If you are town, you should not care about how you are perceived. You should care about finding scum. If you are scum, you should care about how you are perceived since it will most likely be the reason you are lynched. Without saying it, you are clearly not looking to find scum as scum. I don't get how any of that contradicts itself. By saying that you are objectifying perception, which was a clarification toward Madoka's point, not yours, I am stating that you care about perception (i.e. it is an object). Townies don't care about how they are perceived. They have no reason to do so.

[Hiraki]

Putting a dependence on a read on someone else's read isn't something you do as a first option. It's pretty close to the last option.

Do you know enough about my playstyle to know that this is true? Because I listen to my town reads and collect consensus from people — especially since I'm terrible at reads.

Not a good box to open but you did it! Let's examine your take on this town read -

I don't see it really coming from scum!george there given how he did it.

i feel like i knew a different george than you guys so im waiting on shiki on this one. im gonna sheep her meta reads.

hot take: shiki is town

i feel like this is the same shiki in the last blitz game

So at the end of the day, you are using meta from

one

game in order to influence your opinion of one player who does something that you yourself have said that you're not skilled at in order to figure out another game? Sounds lazy or scummy. I pick the later.

Except this isn't even what the post meant. I didn't want to out the masons — plain and simple.

Except that's not what you said and I'd rather take your first statements than your second ones when they don't corroborate very well.

You must at least know that this one isn't true. I worry about my position in any game, town or scum. As town, I don't want to be mislynched. As town PR, I don't want to look like I'm a town PR. I think there's a lot more players who think like this. Your characterization of being town is very simplistic.

Nope. It's driven my games for a very long time now. Your buddy shiki can verify that or if he denies it, I'll do it.

For example, Datisi here who self-admits having mental breakdowns when he's being pushed, would you say that he's scum for caring how he's perceived?

Having a mental breakdown and saying "Oh, I shouldn't say this because it could look bad" are two drastically different things. My latest game I pretty much lost all faith by Day 4. I didn't care how people perceived me then. I cared about finding scum.

[Hiraki]

"Oh, I shouldn't say this because it could look bad"

No one said this.

idk guys earlier i was thinking of bringing it up but then i thought "but then their reaction would probably confirm it and i dont want to confirm it if it wasnt a joke"
so im not resonating

This is not a huge stretch.

Do you think meta is something you can lie about without being scumread for it? If shiki is town, she gives valuable information. If shiki is scum, she gives valuable information OR ELSE.

Are you going to double check her? Are you going to verify her information? Are you going to agree with her opinion every single time? One of these questions you've already answered which nullifies the other two.

YOUR games. Not everybody plays like you do.

So your thought process is that I should go through every player's history and figure out what they do as scum and what they do as town and then figure out if they're replicating that behavior in every game? You did it - I think you've found the foolproof way to play mafia. I should just give up in all of my games because of how good this is.

Your buddy shiki can verify that or if he denies it, I'll do it.

This is a good demonstration of why I trust shiki's meta even if it's just a townlean and I'm not sure about her alignment.
If she gives correct meta, it's correct meta.
If she lies about meta, then it's alignment indicative and we can scumread her for it.
How are you not seeing why this is good?

You have already stated that you

don't

know what my meta is. So how are you going to know if shiki is

lying?

Damn, 370 is such a good fucking post. I give you major props for it. You even noted one of the actual biggest flaws of my play. I think you would get a good read out of Anime UPick to see how I counteract that as somewhat shameful as it becomes. Might also be because of the crumbling of my reads halfway through.

Hiraki, describe your scum game.

mostly the same to me. i noted that he tone policed others in a way that was very uncommon for him in one of his scum games when i was looking over it last time.

i think some points on why the claim is suspicious have already been brought up and i have already said i agree with them but i'm not insane enough to push a mason claim on day 1 so does it even really matter what i think.

Hiraki, do you think Datisi cares too much about town perception by not pushing a mason claim here?

That's not perception.

[Hiraki]

Also I just don't really see why the pushback on this. What's wrong with my finding something you did towny, if you did it and you're town?

Weird pocketing. That game still scars me.

You are implying that this is objective based rather than perception based. I think we may just be thinking of the same idea with different terms. I am saying that he is objectifying his perception in order to look townie. You are saying that his perception is an object to use to look townie. In which case, we would be agreeing rather than what I stated.

I was referring to this:

I'll introduce a third party and interject a question of my own:
Why are you squeamish about Datisi's naked vote and not mine? Why are you squeamish about wagons forming on people you have no reads on?

Unless you have a read on Umlaut?

Wow, maybe I am wrong.

We're on completely different points then. Sorry - do you still want to talk about this?

@hiraki: now that it was explained you (probably?) misunderstood that post what's your reads on monkey and other people?

I did not misunderstand the post - I just feel that arguing about it after that point is not worth it anymore.

That being said, in general, I do not like how the George wagon is forming. It's starting to feel scumsided based on how everyone just decides to say he's lynchable. On the same side, I still think that he is scummy it's just that the formation of this wagon is weird. Hard to accurately explain. I understand that I'm going to have to move my vote because of the timing of this game but I'm not sure if I want to move it to any of the current wagons at this point (which would be the entire purpose of moving my vote). I still hard TR Holden, now Shiki, and Madoka (recent posting has been very good). That leaves:

Datisi (slight SR but I am with whoever said it's not worth trying to figure out if "masons" are masons on D1)
Umlaut (scarred but generally null for now)
Hoctac (town-lean but still null - too much NAI posting)
GeorgeBailey (scummy)

[Hiraki]

This is why I ask:

I think the difference between scum!Hiraki and town!Hiraki is that town!Hiraki is generally perceptive on scumtells and push it so he can get more accurate reads from the pressure he creates. Scum!Hiraki would need to manufacture these scumtells from peope that he know is town.

I have the benefit of knowing that he's wrong about me, so his push on me might seem like he's trying to manufacture scumtells out of me. However, I'm still considering if it's an honest mistake that he misread my post. After #414, it's weird to me that Hiraki refused to acknowledge my existence and even took me out of his reads list. He mentions that he didn't misread my post but didn't want to argue about it anymore.

So now my head is: Is this town!Hiraki too proud to own up to his mistake or is this scum!Hiraki failing to get momentum on his manufactured push?

I want to know.

VOTE: Hiraki

I'm voting you - how am I taking you out of my reads list? He asked for everyone

but

you. We're going in circles in this argument and there's no point in continuing it because you're just going to "clarify" (read: change) your post more and more and more. I even put that part in my post that I don't think your lynch goes through today.

[Hiraki]

Also I just don't really see why the pushback on this. What's wrong with my finding something you did towny, if you did it and you're town?

Weird pocketing. That game still scars me.

Thanks for feeing my ego here.

Would it allay your fear of being pocketed if I told you that I think your push on HEM, and subsequent refusal to admit to misunderstanding 46, is really shady?

It's still not misunderstanding. He's trying to figure out how to not look bad. I'm not misunderstanding anything no matter how much he attempts to change the meaning of it.

[Hiraki]

Hiraki, the way HEM is saying his post should be interpreted is the way I interpreted it in the first place and really the only one that makes sense. Since you think he's attempting to change the meaning, can you say what you find implausible about the "new" meaning he presents?

Because that route already happened before that post and we are still debating if masons are real.

How about me Hiraki? What did you get out of our 1-on-1?

I disagree with Hiraki's point, that Town shouldn't care about how they are perceived. Town should care about scumhunting AND avoiding a mislynch. If you are town, you should care about not getting lynched yourself.

The problem arises when you ONLY care about staying alive. I don't get that sense from HEM's posts at all.

Not only is this wrong, it's also irrational in method and logic.

[Hiraki]

Datisi (slight SR but I am with whoever said it's not worth trying to figure out if "masons" are masons on D1)

Why'd you think Datisi was one of the mason claims, Hiraki?

Oops. You're right. I got things mixed up in my head.

I am VT btw. (I think I am at or near L-1 but I've counted 3 times and miscounted at least twice on that front) since HEM is not happening today -

Vote: GeorgeBailey

This is L-1.

[Hiraki]

since HEM is not happening today

since HEM is not happening today

since HEM is not happening today

please, take such utter glory in me moving my vote to my secondary scumread because of a deadline, that is truly the best way to think of this whole situation

[Hiraki]

Good point. Although, I think scum!Hiraki might've at least admitted his mistake and backed off, rather than continue voting for you after it seemed EVERYONE was disagreeing with his interpretation of the original post.

[Hiraki]

One person that does a lot of meta persuades your opinion?

But this is a new game, where you're not supposed to know her alignment.

This displeases me!

How does it displease you? Putting a dependence on a read on someone else's read isn't something you do as a first option. It's pretty close to the last option. The only thing HEM has against me is that I'm twisting his words - which, wait a second that sounds familiar -

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p11703551

Oopsie.

Let's work from this narrative then. I can pull the post I was talking about from the newbie where post game HEM commented he doesn't like using meta. How does that affect your read considering he is asking Shiki for meta?

Negatively? I think I've brought up that fact multiple times. Not sure what you're trying to get at here.

@all: There are 18 hours left so if you are not on a wagon, it's time to move onto one.

[Hiraki]

Vote: Humaneatingmonkey

Lynching outside of any claims is still optimal zzz

HEM has no real reads read the last 3 pages zzz

[Hiraki]

you literally ranted on for years yesterday about how shiki is god sent and now he's in your ever-changing scum pool

bruuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuh

Datisi (slight SR but I am with whoever said it's not worth trying to figure out if "masons" are masons on D1)

Why'd you think Datisi was one of the mason claims, Hiraki?

Oops. You're right. I got things mixed up in my head.

I am VT btw. (I think I am at or near L-1 but I've counted 3 times and miscounted at least twice on that front) since HEM is not happening today -

Vote: GeorgeBailey

This is L-1.

[Hiraki]

HEM are you neighbors with Shiki?

yep totally doing it on purpose, no one else saw it

[Hiraki]

kk u two go to bed and ill just wrap this game up tyvm, time for shit flinging to end here and now in the next post

yep totally doing it on purpose, no one else saw it

A genie tells you I'm town. Who do you think is the scum team?

The other two wishes are to tell me who is scum so I can win the game. The genie tells me back that he lied about the first wish and I get it back.

Good dodge of the question btw. You sure haven't done that move anywhere before.

Since absolutely no one asked what Hoctac and I discussed in the nhood, here's a fairly comprehensive summary. Nothing super useful that I can see, but I want to be transparent now. I'm highlighting parts that talk about our reads on other players specifically in case you don't want to wade through a bunch of inconsequential posts.

Spoiler: This is kind of long

Pregame

• 1-5: "oh hey, it's you"-style chatter
  6: I asked Hoctac if there's more to his role
  7: he claimed Miller Watcher (bcuz Hoctac)
  8: I side-eyed the claim but said if he was serious and was town then I could blatantly soft a PR and he could watch me (but really if he had stuck with the claim I would have just disbelieved it and likely voted him day 1)
  9: Hoctac retracted the claim but suggested what we actually did, saying either one of us would get shot instead of a real PR or else one of us was scum
  10-11: I went along with it and specified "you just lolclaim and I'll come in and get pissy about it"
  12: Hoctac said he was looking forward to it

Day 1

• 13-15: we agreed to probably back off talking about the claim because continuing to talk about it would make it more dubious
  16: I said as long as we never actually deny it outright scum will probably work on the assumption it's true
  17: Hoctac said people don't seem to be buying it
  
  18: Hoctac said Datisi's naked vote might be trying to force a full claim (I assume this was about 118)
  
  19: Hoctac said I was seeming kind of scummy to him and asked why I had no reads on anyone
  20: I said I'd been distracted from the game
  21-22: Hoctac said okay and that he was doubling down
  23: I said also I've been kind of so worried about keeping up appearances with the claim that I forgot to scumhunt
  24: Hoctac lol'd
  
  25: I said I think HEM hard-disbelieving the Mason claim is towny
  
  
  26: Hoctac agreed re. HEM, said Datisi was pinging him, and that he was having trouble reading shiki
  
  
  27: Hoctac said shiki's takes have been pretty good since 70
  
  28: I asked if Hoctac thought what he was seeing scummy in me was what HoldenGolden was seeing, because I was mildly pinged by his push on me but not if the post really was suspicious from an outside perspective
  29: Hoctac just said HG's reasoning for that push was weak (this kind of bothered me since it didn't really answer the question I asked)
  30: I said I didn't want to post in the main thread until we talked about whether to retract the claim or double down again
  
  31: I wrote out pretty much the thoughts I eventually shared here in 230, except I added that I'm pretty sure Hoctac is town because the Datisi push and his way of presenting it appeared like genuine sorting to me
  
  
  32: I said HEM's suspicions of HG also seemed genuine to me, but so did HG's responses
  
  33: I told Hoctac if he didn't get back in two hours I was just going to confess our real roles
  34: [Question for the mod]
  
  35: I gave a readlist: HEM and Hoctac town, HG probtown, GeorgeBailey scum, idk about everyone else
  
  
  36: Hoctac reappeared and said let's go all in, also said he didn't really buy that HEM would think backtracking now is "not AI" but doing so later would be, and that HEM could be scum who just really needs to know for sure that we're masons and wanted to confirm it
  
  
  37: Hoctac said HEM's progression on HG felt unnatural to him, that he townleans shiki, and that my reasons for scumleaning her are just how she plays
  
  
  38-39: Hoctac liked Madoka's read on Datisi, liked Holden for town but wanted to meta-dive his scum game
  
  40: I confirmed I was going all in, said I would be super salty if Hoctac was scum
  41: Hoctac said he probably
  wouldn't
  be salty if I was, since this was all his idea
  42: [Answer from the mod]
  43: I asked Hoctac why he said he wanted to end the day in 43
  44: Hoctac said it was a joke
  
  45: Hoctac said George had an unwilling-to-offend tone to him that might be scum
  
  
  46: Hoctac pointed out shiki was dead-on about the mason gambit
  
  47: Hoctac pointed out scum might have information from their own roles that would let them genuinely doubt a mason claim
  
  48: Hoctac said this is why HEM's doubt was not necessarily as town-indicative as I thought
  (though in retrospect given that there really are masons scum couldn't possibly have 'known' there weren't)
  49: I said shiki's accuracy was awesome yet annoying, and that I was getting paranoid of a scum!Hoctac killing me to "clear" himself as town
  50-51: Hoctac said he hadn't thought of that, also said it was kind of towny of me to consider it now
  52-53: Hoctac jokes
  
  54-55: I said I wanted to see if Hiraki retracted his suspicion after HEM explained the misread, and if not then I wanted us both to further pressure him on that and see if he flinches (spoiler: he didn't)
  
  
  56: I said one of us could also raise the point that HEM eventually changed his mind about pushing the mason claim, and see if someone like e.g. Hiraki jumps on it,because it's a weak point and pushing it further could be scum-indicative
  
  57: I acknowledged Hoctac's 47
  58: Hoctac said he was raising the point I brought up in 56
  59-67: banter
  
  68: Hoctac said he was unsure how to take Madoka's accepting the mason claims at face value and that it didn't seem like her, but maybe she had more suspicion than she was letting on
  
  69: Hoctac asked how I was reading him
  70: I said probtown but asked why it mattered
  71: I said we should try and gamesolve during the night so if one dies the other can share their thoughts

Night 1

• 72: VOICE OF MOD:
  73: Hoctac said he's not confident I'm town but agreed to work on solving at night;
  Hoctac said the hammer looked really scummy (for the reasons I've shared in this thread) and thought maybe Datisi feared people would be convinced by Madoka's case and wanted to end the day asap
  
  74: I said good point
  
  75: I said Hiraki's "don't townread me for that" in 319 caught my eye because I have seen scum players attempt to get towncred for refusing a townread and I was trying to figure out if this was an example of that, and that while this didn't seem to quite fit that pattern it was still stuck in my head
  
  76: I complained about not feeling great
  
  77: I said HEM and Madoka are the towniest towns to me, and if we can convince ourselves HG is also town then we can just lynch everyone else to win

And then it was Day 2

yellow is a terrible highlight

I honestly do not know how everyone else (shiki) knew the mason claim was not legitimate. Her IQ is too high (or it is a knowledge slip from being Umlaut's partner).

So shiki - easily the most calculated person in the game who metadives on everyone - knowledge slips on D1? Nope, not buying it. Not even a little.

To rule out the all-town possibility I want to read through and see if there was any of {HEM, Madoka, shiki} were either null or inconsistent or wishy-washy on GeorgeBailey, because even if they would prefer to stay off a mislynch I'd think scum would want to leave open at least the possibility of self-consistently voting for him if it was necessary to push the wagon over the edge. If not then Hiraki is pretty much definitely scum afaic.

??? this doesn't make sense

Who said I stopped? My lynch order is Umlaut and Hiraki, and it's increasingly getting obvious that Hiraki isn't trying to case my slot in good faith.

you literally said this last game - i don't need to repeat my points ten times but maybe eleven will work

[Hiraki]

oh thank god, finally you've seen the light

[Hiraki]

what if i can write your post, without quotes, in 5 minutes? you can start the timer whenever

[Hiraki]

actually im tired so ill just do it quickly, there is actually a lot of evidence of an all-town george bailey lynch and that scum were trying to stay off the wagons. i am pretty confident that the scum are off the wagon rather than on the wagon at this point

HEM has basically no excuse to not jump on george considering his involvement and knowledge of why i changed my vote at the end and his prior comments on george being so wishwashy

[Hiraki]

I think I'm good with Umlaut + Hiraki as my scumteam.

Then you should vote for Hiraki who you were certain of being scum.

see? it's all calculated - even that last post was a lie lol

What I see here is forcing a false dichotomy that lynching GeorgeBailey = bad. I don't think that's true. Gamestate forced us to a single wagon. That's what needs analysis.

your VCA 'analysis' is pushing this agenda zzz

I was on Hiraki's wagon at 2 votes and there was no one else wanting to lynch him. It's deadline, and we needed a lynch. Not that I wanted to lynch him, but we needed to flip something. Datisi just jumped the gun and hammered him first. If someone were to talk to me, I would have given intent.

the facts according to HEM:

1) George is not a bad lynch.
2) George needed intent to hammer before lynching.
3) George was hammered on with someone who did not claim intent which is

okay

4) HEM was not able to hammer George before he was aware that George was L-1

the facts according to the thread:

1) George is still not a bad lynch.
2) George did not need intent to hammer before lynching.
3) George was hammered on with someone who did not claim intent which is okay
4) HEM did not hammer George because he was apprehensive about the situation

Datisi (slight SR but I am with whoever said it's not worth trying to figure out if "masons" are masons on D1)

Why'd you think Datisi was one of the mason claims, Hiraki?

Oops. You're right. I got things mixed up in my head.

I am VT btw. (I think I am at or near L-1 but I've counted 3 times and miscounted at least twice on that front) since HEM is not happening today -

Vote: GeorgeBailey

This is L-1.

Hiraki's stubbornness and lack of concern for his appearance might be town-indicative.

What do you think scum!Hiraki would have done?

I don't find it hard to believe that scum!Hiraki, while parroting the truism

town don't care

, would project that he, in fact, doesn't care.

10 HEM posts later -

Can anyone pushing for a Bailey lynch tell me why Bailey is a better lynch?
And where the hell is Bailey?

I'm ending my day. Good night.

@all: There are 18 hours left so if you are not on a wagon, it's time to move onto one.

oh yeah, you were definitely trying to get a lynch yesterday that was going to happen yesterday HEM yep yep - especially when you tunnel on me for the entire day like you did in blitz I when you flipped...scum!

i'm actually gonna flip my madoka read to hard red after re-reading a few times because there are some blatant inconsistencies that I kind of threw away in the beginning that don't really make sense now - like this one

I guess I will lay out the essential stuff:

♡ I feel fairly confident datisi is scum (see note 404).
♡ I feel more positively about holden from our interaction.
♡ I still think HEM is town. I do not think the points on Hiraki are AI though.
♡ I think Hiraki may be image managing this game. He tends to be quite mean, but he has complimented me, shiki, and umlaut in some form. He also seems to be playing less assertively. This is not substantial enough to lynch him though. I think most of his content is reasonable. He misinterpreted HEM it seems, but I don't see that as AI. Not really having a solid scum read other than HEM is the biggest negative.
♡ George making HEM vs Hiraki as only T v S is really scummy.

I think lynching Datisi, George, and Hiraki in that order wins it.

VOTE: Datisi

keep in mind we had 18 hours to the deadline and madoka is voting on a wagon that has 2 people (including herself) on it - that's not how you make sure D1 leads into a lynch

[Hiraki]

But that said I'm pretty sure at least one of {Hiraki, HEM} is scum which means I'll have to pick one eventually, so maybe it might as well be today.

let me make this simple for you -

1) how many times has HEM flagrantly lied this game about his past performance?
2) how many times did HEM go on and on about shiki's mastery of meta, then deny it today, and then try to make it see like it was important day 1 for his reads? why on earth isn't that most obvious attempt of pocketing i've ever seen (which failed FYI)
3) even though no one agrees with it, 46 is showing the same thought process of the above which means that i was right all along i just needed better examples for it, I GUESS

[Hiraki]

i dont even want to talk about HEM anymore, i want to talk about madoka so no more HEM for right now

i want to speak on why i originally TR madoka -

Madoka (recent posting has been very good)

it was shitty because i can't even figure it out because recent posting at this point was bad when i read it now, which is glad that i didn't really push on this more. if i read more into it, i'd have a better idea but i honestly don't. i believe i have been scared of misreading madoka because she is usually scummy to me but i am not scared of that anymore

I have been skimming, but I am no longer V/LA and will be able to put more time into this. Also Micc, you didn't read this. If you did, I wasn't V/LA, I'm lying.

I am up to page 5 on in-depth reading:

Spoiler: Look at me I am so Town

5 nai
6 nai
8 nai
9 nai
10 nai
11 hu: town, non-lamisty as compared to previous game
12 nai
13 nai
14 nai and also i dont know what this means
15 nai
18 nai and funny
25 ge: town, only town role fish and role phish and roll fish
27 ge: town flex posting
28 da: scum joke
29 hu: scum vote
30 ge: town reaction
31 hu: town perspective
32 ge: town reaction
33 sh: town involvement
34 nai
36 da: hedgey = scummy
37 hu: town, is ok with people being town read / not arguing against it
38 nai
39 nai
41 nai
42 ge: town, guiltless
44 nai
45 nai
46 hu: nvm he is arguing against it
47 nai
53 hu: no, faking that requires premeditation. george was clearly reacting in the moment. you dont need meta for this
54 nai bugspray/umlaut line funny
56 hu: i believe
58 nai
59 ge: do the town reads really come from meta? i dont think so. this read on hem is iffy
60 hu: weird post. really weird post
61 nai
62 da: hedge again
65 nai shiki #2
66 nai
67 nai
68 nai
69 nai shiki #3
70 nai
71 hu: yes i agree
73 hu: good accepting it
74 nai but man this is a completely different guy from last game it's making me feel weird
75 da: is reading as unnaturaly conversive to me. is this bias??? my experience with him is limited so let's make this nai
76 nai
77 da: good tone
80 nai
81 nai
82 nai and scaring me
83 nai and i thought i knew fear before
84 nai
85 nai
86 nai
87 nai lol whyyy
88 ho: good eval
89 nai
90 hu: alright point
91 nai
93 hu: highly town indicative. hu in previous game was very forceful with his positions
94 nai
97 sh: good eval
98 nai
99 nai
100 nai
101 hu: no good, it wasnt suspicious at all
103 nai also don't know why he said this
104 hu: good
105 nai
106 nai
109 nai
110 nai
111 nai
113 nai
114 ho: hmmm
115 nai
117 nai
118 nai
122 nai
123 nai

From the content up to that point,

♡ I am town reading HEM. He is playing in an easy going way and does not seem to care too much about players being town read. In the previous game he pushed for players pretty hard so as to avoid being PoEd. He was also very LAMISTy and he does not appear to be making an effort to appear town here. My negatives are that his friendliness and jovial character is making me feel weird because of the stark contrast with his previous play. It does make me wonder if he is trying to be so different from the last game, that he is town read by meta.

@Holden

, did scum HEM in your last game play similarly to Blitz I? Or did he change up his style? Do you think his play here is within the realm of being deliberately different? Another thing that is weirding me out is how he keeps addressing Shiki. But I think the most suspicious part of HEM's play was his read on the George situation. George simply was not scummy there, and HEM portrayed everyone else's read of the situation as coming from meta, but I do not think that was the case except for Shiki. I suppose this, along with the way HEM has been addressing Shiki, could be explained if they are in a neighborhood and Shiki expressed her meta view of George privately.

♡ I have a town impression of George. His reaction to the masons claim appeared natural and fluid. My only negative is that his play is different than the previous Blitz. That does not provide enough data, however, for this to greatly impact my read. Oh, I also was not fond of his HEM read. George agreed that everyone's view of him came from meta, but again, I do not think that was true. He just looked townie from the situation.

♡ I have a town impression of Shiki. I agreed with her analysis of HEM.

♡ I have a slight town impression of Holden. I liked his perspective on George.

♡ I have a slight scum impression of Datasi. He seems off, but I am not sure how much of that is bias from future pages. Datisi once told me that he is great at being town read from town as tone, so it is concerning that I am getting a scum impression. The hedgeyness of his pan cakes is what pinged me. Is it really a pot bake if it comes with an asterisk? That is a warm make not a hot sake. The timing of his HEM pot cake also did not seem natural.

---

If Shiki and HEM are neighbors, the setup is looking similar to this game. It may be then, that the neighbors are both town, and mafia consists of a traffic analyst and a goon.

let's start here and ENHANCE

♡ I am town reading HEM. He is playing in an easy going way and does not seem to care too much about players being town read. In the previous game he pushed for players pretty hard so as to avoid being PoEd. He was also very LAMISTy and he does not appear to be making an effort to appear town here. My negatives are that his friendliness and jovial character is making me feel weird because of the stark contrast with his previous play. It does make me wonder if he is trying to be so different from the last game, that he is town read by meta. @Holden, did scum HEM in your last game play similarly to Blitz I? Or did he change up his style? Do you think his play here is within the realm of being deliberately different? Another thing that is weirding me out is how he keeps addressing Shiki. But I think the most suspicious part of HEM's play was his read on the George situation. George simply was not scummy there, and HEM portrayed everyone else's read of the situation as coming from meta, but I do not think that was the case except for Shiki. I suppose this, along with the way HEM has been addressing Shiki, could be explained if they are in a neighborhood and Shiki expressed her meta view of George privately.

well, that's neat and all but this is never picked up on again - it's just put on the ground. and HEM even does a "good night" thing to Madoka so where did that go?!?

i also don't find any of this town readable. why would someone care if they're townread by other people? why does that make them townie? even the negatives don't make sense - he's doing something different so he doesn't get meta read? what?? he's not really doing that much differently

♡ I have a slight scum impression of Datasi. He seems off, but I am not sure how much of that is bias from future pages. Datisi once told me that he is great at being town read from town as tone, so it is concerning that I am getting a scum impression. The hedgeyness of his pan cakes is what pinged me. Is it really a pot bake if it comes with an asterisk? That is a warm make not a hot sake. The timing of his HEM pot cake also did not seem natural.

???

now here's where things get interesting - Madoka is reading the game/skimming/doing something but there's a lie in all of this that i dont think anyone talked about

here - madoka says:

Ok, looking through that last page, I think it is safe to lock HEM as town.

Which is fine - maybe she's up to that point even though her last post indicates she's still near Page 5ish (post 123 is the last post of analysis) then we get this -

♡ Hiraki's post up to this point have also left a slight town impression on me. They looked worse when I was skimming, but his points are not bad.

at page 10 - so we're going to get something that leads to a scumread between pages 10 and 17 -

♡ I think Hiraki may be image managing this game. He tends to be quite mean, but he has complimented me, shiki, and umlaut in some form. He also seems to be playing less assertively. This is not substantial enough to lynch him though. I think most of his content is reasonable. He misinterpreted HEM it seems, but I don't see that as AI. Not really having a solid scum read other than HEM is the biggest negative.

not AI - got it

I think lynching Datisi, George, and Hiraki in that order wins it.

???

i made the list after being townie?

This represents the current strength of my reads

GeorgeBailey
<<<<

<

<<<<<o>>>>>>>>>>

Datisi
<<<<<

<

<<<<o>>>>>>>>>>

HoldenGolden
<<<<<<

<

<<<o>>>>>>>>>>

Hiraki
<<<<<<<<<<o>>

>

>>>>>>>

shiki
<<<<<<<<<<o>>>>>>

>

>>>

humaneatingmonkey
<<<<<<<<<<o>>>>>>>>

>

>

okay okay - i guess holden beat me somewhere right?

♡ I feel more positively about holden from our interaction.

oh okay - the one where you say:

I'll give the agreement that I was focused on Ulmat while most were not, especially given his reaction and his further posts pinging me.

➳ I am confused though on why my continued discussion about the Mason's stands out to you when others were actively discussing alternatives to the claims around the same time I brought up the neighbor's logic (from memory alone, Datisi, George, Shiki, and HEM). Not only was it a focus on the thread the time, but I also stopped after the reaffirmation by Ulmant in a later post like everyone else. Why does my discussion stand out to you?

➳ Further, Whats this "Holden doesn't let things go" you mention in the spoiled PbP analysis? You are giving yourself a reason to doubt your read logic which I find hard to believe actually exists (as I don't think letting things go = pressure)?

➳ Particularly in the HEM George reaction over my playstyle, how is it TMI? George was asked to compared by ISO from the newbie me and HEM played versus this game. It had nothing to do with the blitz game prior to this, and due to the differences in the length of day phases, I don't see how that is anymore TMI than a reasonable conclusion based on the comparison presented by HEM. The only way it makes sense is if george is scum, and he slipped that I am town since he knows I am town. But that sounds flimsy.

➳ Now onto the spoiled PBP analysis, whats the point in including words like "weird/interesting/hmm" etc. for an analysis and then not explain why they are such interesting bits? None of that actually explains anything AI, and only serves as fluff if you arent going to actually use those posts for anything AI.

➳

It is how much time you spent on it. In particular 187 - 189. Digging into their motivations seemed completely unnecessary at this point. It is possible, however, that my interpretation is biased by the fact that I am reading with the knowledge that they are hard claiming.

➳

In Blitz one you went in circles for days regarding the Night action plan and why it was best to lynch you. You were so fixated on it and I had to skim past it because of how unnecessary it was.

➳

Regarding the TMI, in 235 he is assigning intent behind your posts. There is a difference between saying:

"He's literally just been asking questions" and
"He's literally just been asking questions to get people to be more transparent with their reads."

Having insight into your intent is what is TMI. Similarly, in 244 he is presuming to know the reason why you are playing differently. This is especially weird because you already stated why you are playing differently, and that was not it. It is also weird because, while yes HEM brought up that newbie game as an

example

, his larger point was that you were playing different

in general

. George played with you in the previous Blitz, so the logic that your playstyle difference is due to the pacing does not hold up. He is focusing on the inconsequential difference between this and the newbie game, rather than the bigger point that HEM was trying to make. This indicates to me that he is not genuinely sorting you.

➳

I would not call the spoiled bit an analysis. My analysis is the non-spoiled bit. The spoiler is just for the sake of transparency, it is not there to communicate my thoughts. However, I am providing them so that you can see where my train of thought is at a given time and as a reference to the points I make in my evaluation.

I'm even more confused. You also in your catch up called plenty of my posts good/townie, so why do you assume that Hoctac's locktown post from earlier is the only reason someone could be townreading me?

Because I have not seen an indication that he has still been attempting to sort you since that post.

How is directly questioning them and trying to figure out the motivation behind the stunt they pulled if scum (the neighbor theorizing posts) indirect doubting

Because you were puzzling it out, whereas Monkey just said he did not believe it.

I get a feeling your read on me is stronger based on how you reconfirmed it without being asked to Hoctac here

Your feeling is incorrect. As you pointed out, I have gotten a number of town impressions from your posts as well, and they are stronger than those I have gotten from George.

So why not vote and pressure me directly?

I do not vote until I am ready to lynch. See Blitz I, Totally Real Food, and Hard Boiled Eggs.

none of that shows any positivity to me, in fact, there's a lot of negativity here - if anything, this looks like you backing down on a potential HG scumread because you don't think you have the ability to go toe to toe. where on earth do you get any good vibes from that post? because he was willing to respond to your questions??

[Hiraki]

1) how many times has HEM flagrantly lied this game about his past performance?

I'm terrible at guessing games, how many?

you should get better

12,3) everything about shiki
4) wanted to hammer
5) #46
6)

This is why I ask:

I think the difference between scum!Hiraki and town!Hiraki is that town!Hiraki is generally perceptive on scumtells and push it so he can get more accurate reads from the pressure he creates. Scum!Hiraki would need to manufacture these scumtells from peope that he know is town.

I have the benefit of knowing that he's wrong about me, so his push on me might seem like he's trying to manufacture scumtells out of me. However, I'm still considering if it's an honest mistake that he misread my post. After #414, it's weird to me that Hiraki refused to acknowledge my existence and even took me out of his reads list. He mentions that he didn't misread my post but didn't want to argue about it anymore.

So now my head is: Is this town!Hiraki too proud to own up to his mistake or is this scum!Hiraki failing to get momentum on his manufactured push?

I want to know.

VOTE: Hiraki

I'm voting you - how am I taking you out of my reads list? He asked for everyone

but

you. We're going in circles in this argument and there's no point in continuing it because you're just going to "clarify" (read: change) your post more and more and more. I even put that part in my post that I don't think your lynch goes through today.

also can we talk about

this

for a second?

I think I'm good with Umlaut + Hiraki as my scumteam.

Then you should vote for Hiraki who you were certain of being scum.

VOTE: Hiraki
Let's do this

Umlaut (2) - humaneatingmonkey, shiki
Hiraki (1) - Madoka

which now becomes

umlaut (1) - shiki
hiraki (2) - madoka, HEM

guess the shiki buddying has disappeared yikes

also who was one of the first people to bring shiki HEM buddying up today? yikes - it certainly wasn't me but it was someone else above

[Hiraki]

I didn't get off your wagon immediately after it went down to two votes because I was hoping Madoka would join the wagon. I was waiting for her catch-up. It's just that soon after her catch up, Datisi hammers George and I didn't know he was L-1 because there wasn't a VC.

1+1=2, not 5

[Hiraki]

Rather, as posts like this suggest, Hiraki had no intentions to try and fight for a HEM lynch.

Really? Or was it that everyone dismissed what I was saying and even I get tired?

[Hiraki]

when i flip town, HEM dies next - there's no talking tomorrow, it just happens. i will die in order to make sure that you get scum tomorrow

[Hiraki]

Regarding the argument, there was no lie. The post you quoted where I responded to Holden was not of me updating my read of Holden, it was elaborating on the read I had already stated (in response to Holden's inquiry). That interaction itself is what led to a town lean on Holden. As for you, if I recall, I believe I stated that I did not believe my suspicion was enough to justify lynching you (that day). Considering Datisi and George are town, I think it is more likely that you are scum.

this confirms madoka scum btw, it is the most narrow-minded viewpoint that i have ever seen from this player that has been observant of all viewpoints rather than just one. please read this post 50 times in conjunction with my arguments after i die and ask yourself if it truly comes from town every single time

[Hiraki]

oh

now

shiki is scummy, very interesting, super interesting

[Hiraki]

i still flip town FYI - don't let me down, i gave you the game

[Hiraki]

I can't believe Hiraki flipped town. He was playing so fucking bad that he should have been lynched all along since Day 1. His tunnel on me was full of shit that he extrapolated on even more shit. I can't believe you can play as town and really do that to someone. Someone people just have huge fucking egos that they can't accept that they may be wrong even when proven wrong multiple times.

Don't sign up on a game with me again, Hiraki.

Anyway I'm currently sleep-deprived right now after editing a heavy ass video. I'm gonna sleep and re-read after I wake up.

this is shitty given your role

[Hiraki]

That doesn't mean it's not shitty

[Hiraki]

I mean, I need to respond like I would as town being tunnelled. I believe I directed all "insults" on your play than you as a person. I do not mean not signing up with you again. I actually would enjoy being town with you for once.

if you're saying that you're going to stop playing games with people if you believed that they were scum and they were town

as town

, that is an even worse scenario