Newbie 2064 - (GG)

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Not a lot of info to go on. From the brief look around the forum, it seems like most people aren't a fan of RQS and I get the feeling no vote is a good way to be the first elimination lol I guess if I have to pick, I'll go for the first voter (sorry, but I agree with your guess at least)

VOTE: Micc

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Are you from another mafia site/game/server? If so can you post which one

No, just read up on the wiki. It seems like a more useful method than just voting at random, but I'll trust the more experienced players.

This reads pretty awkward.

If you find RQS useful, then give it a try. Even if people ignore it that’s something you can read into.
More significant imo: you imply that not putting a vote down would you look suspicious, but you ignore another player who did that and instead vote for me. Is my vote coming down first even more suspicious than orctin not voting in their first post?

Sorry, seems I wasn't clear. I didn't mean not voting on my first post I meant literally voting for No Elimination. But maybe I'm wrong and that would be fine? Every group's different, so I can only guess.

I'm also pretty awkward around people I don't know, so I might've stumbled over myself a bit there, sorry ^^'

The rules of this topic say unvoting isn't necessary, so does that mean if I were to change my mind I'd just have to vote for someone new? Or is it like an all votes are final so make them count sorta deal?

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Fair enough. Like I said, I'll trust the people with more experience until I've gotten the hang of things

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Iirc it was basically a quiz show where people had to answer a bunch of questions and beat 100 other anonymous people or something like that.
And thanks, if I have trouble I'll be sure to ask

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I have to agree with what's been said thus far. I can understand a certain level of aggression being needed to prevent a mafia win, but this feels a little artificial to me I guess? For one thing there's the assumption that careful players expect PRs to win the game for them, when you'd think someone advocating that we make good reads on people would have a more positive view on the matter. Then as NinjaStore said, bringing someone that close to elimimation when the game's barely started feels a little odd.

Not to say necessarily that what you're saying is outright wrong, in fact you've given plenty of good advice as well, but I can't say that the way you've been acting is really making me consider changing my vote. That said, the game is, again, still pretty early in so I'm going to keep an open mind if something else sticks out.

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So anyone who still doesn’t like the E-2 wagon can blame the RVS voters for getting in the way of my attempt at a real wagon.

Except weren't you the first person to vote? No one had even posted aside from mods and you immediately targetted NinjaStore with no reasoning even given. That's hardly attempting to start a real wagon, even a joke vote has more justification than that.

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What are you talking about? Didn't you vote for me?

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I just find it odd that you're suddenly taking issue with the people who did RVS when you did it yourself and were advocating it until that post

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Fair enough, maybe it was just the phrasing that threw me off. I'm still not convinced enough to withdraw my vote for now though. Hopefully you can prove my hunch wrong.

Bye NinjaStore, have a fun trip! I agree, irl dying is not preferred.

As for the replacement, that brings a question to mind: since Humaneatingmonkey replaced DJSTR do the votes transfer to him as well or is it treated as if the ones who voted have unvoted?

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Ah, that'll be good to know if I replace into another game, thank you

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Those are definitely some great starting points for analysis orctin.
Going by general vibe, Micc definitely seems the most outwardly antagonistic. Not sure if that's a sign of him being Mafia or just an aggressive playstyle; both seem equally likely at this point. I'm very curious to see his reaction to being at E-1.
That said, while we do need to figure out who to eliminate today, this is a 2 Mafia game, so we do need to consider who might be a secondary guess after our primary choice. Not to say that we should focus all our efforts on that (chasing two hares and all that), but it's definitely something to keep in mind.
Another thing as well might be to change our thinking style. While we can definitely say that we're suspicious of several people, one thing we could consider is trying to figure out who's pro-Town. I will admit there is a potential flaw there in that it might help Mafia decide on a target so it might be best to keep quiet to ourselves about our thoughts on that front for the time being, I just thought it might help make analyzing easier.

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I wouldn't mind a Dum or Salsabil wagon tbf

VOTE: Salsabil

I can somewhat understand Salsabil given they have been pretty brief when it comes to explaining their reasoning and you did notice a potentially suspicious comment, but do you mind if I ask why Dum? I'm curious if you've picked up on something or if you're just trying to spark a reaction from them?

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Wow, thing's have gotten a bit more hostile since I was last here.
What I've gathered from everyone's posts is that humaneatingmonkey seems to have a tendency to post things that will get people to react. This likely means he's town since the only reason you'd need to do that is to get a better read on people, but it is possible he's scum doing it for any number of reasons.
Jackson on the other hand has me feeling wary. They spent most of the first two days lurking and then suddenly began posting a ton. This in and of itself isn't necessarily a scum move, they could simply be focusing on getting a read on people, however if you combine that with the fact that they're very quick to defend Micc who's been the primary suspect thus far and them seemingly trying to make us turn on each other, it does read as somewhat concerning. Not outright scummy in my eyes, bit definitely someone to keep an eye on.
On the topic of Micc, their arguments this far have been pretty weak, mostly consisting of "that's a rookie mistake, you'll figure it out with experience" whuch seems to be a good to deflect an argument from a new player without having to actually provide a decent reasoning. That said, I'm getting the feeling that Micc either isn't scum or, if he is, he's not the one to be most concerned about.
Salsabil got awfully defensive when Jackson called her out, moreso than I think was warranted. She's also kept her posts incredibly brief and without much substance. These things could be either poorly disguised scum behavior or simple newbie jitters and I'm not 100% sure which rn.
Orctin has been mostly helpful and he seems to be able to keep a cool head under pressure (a useful but potentially dangerous trait). He seems very similar to me in that we're both focused more on getting a read and breaking down arguments logically than simply voting. My gut tells me he's town, but I can't deny the possibility that he's simply very good at playing the long game for a mafia win.
As for everyone else I don't have a good enough read to say anything about them at this point.

If I had to pick, I'd say my top 3 suspects are, from most to least suspicious, Salsabil, Jackson, and Micc. However, there's still enough doubt that I can't pick a specific person to point the finger at rn. That said
UNVOTE: Micc

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Sorry, I work fast food so Fridays are busy. Been keeping up with the posts but haven't had time to put anything decent together. I'll try to respond on my break

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Hey fam, check my signature.
Also I am not going to *not* defend someone that I think is wrongfully pushed just because they're a wagon, that's insane. Please do quote where you think I am trying to make you turn on each other, I literally am saying that Orc/Micc is TvT, trying to *stop* that conflict because I feel they're both Town.

The lurking isn't what gets me, it's that you went from lurking to dominating the conversation. Just seems a bit odd.
As for quotes, aside from the more active hostility that started right around the time you started posting, there's the vehement refusal to even consider a no-elimination over just voting someone that seems sus with no real evidence.

We are not no-eliminating, that is counter-intuitive to our goals.

Then the defense of Micc in and of itself isn't an issue, but the fact that you seem to view aggressive and borderline antagonistic behavior as not something to worry about

It's in what I said. They seemed to be pushing what I read as NAI

Yet seem to find Dum apologizing suspicious enough to warrant a potential wagon

I am voting Salsa since the read on Dum isn't super strong but they've been overly apologetic which I am thinking may be them doing so to "protect" themselves from any slips they make, which I also think is a subconscious act since they're new to the site.

Combine that with the fact that claiming both orctin and Micc are TvT is actually a very good way to protect a potential scum (or at least disruptive player), without attracting suspicion, it has me wary. Not enough to warrant a vote, but enough to keep an eye out.

If I had to pick, I'd say my top 3 suspects are, from most to least suspicious, Salsabil, Jackson, and Micc. However, there's still enough doubt that I can't pick a specific person to point the finger at rn. That said

It's early on day 1, it does not matter where your vote is as long as you're voting someone you think is scummy. I have no idea why you seem to think it holds a lot of weight in who you specifically vote.

As for this, I'll let you answer your own question.

Ignoring or

half-assing

day-play will make us lose, it's as simple as that.

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I gotta say, that play by Dum was definitely unexpected and the analysis was fairly well done. Unfortunately, I don't think taking the bait means anything; it relies on whoever it is not paying attention to the events of the thread which I don't see most of the active players doing, scum or otherwise. The rules at the beginning also said we have to state our intent to hammer on vote 5, which he didn't do. As far as I can tell, the trap did little to tell us about orctin, but did reveal a trickier side to Dum (though whether that will backfire or not remains to be seen).

There's the possibility that Micc and Dum are scum trying to protect each other, but it's just as likely that they could be town, so frustratingly enough this did little to change my mind about the current circumstances; there's just too many possibilities with little to weigh things in anyone's favor.

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Responses in red

Hey fam, check my signature.
Also I am not going to *not* defend someone that I think is wrongfully pushed just because they're a wagon, that's insane. Please do quote where you think I am trying to make you turn on each other, I literally am saying that Orc/Micc is TvT, trying to *stop* that conflict because I feel they're both Town.

The lurking isn't what gets me, it's that you went from lurking to dominating the conversation. Just seems a bit odd.
As for quotes, aside from the more active hostility that started right around the time you started posting, there's the vehement refusal to even consider a no-elimination over just voting someone that seems sus with no real evidence.

If that's your issue, why did you say that lurking was the issue. I hardly ever post much in early-game unless someone twists my soul (mainly in a bad way), just the way I play. Also as Micc has said, no-eliminating forces the Town to rely on PRs more than what is needed, and that throws the odds into the Mafia's hands which I do not want. I am assuming that you come from role-madness like games (such as Town of Salem) where there is a lot of PR roles and it's focused on night-play.

We are not no-eliminating, that is counter-intuitive to our goals.

Then the defense of Micc in and of itself isn't an issue, but the fact that you seem to view aggressive and borderline antagonistic behavior as not something to worry about

Aggressive or antagonistic does not equal scummy, that could very well just be their playstyle similar to how someone like DkKoba plays

It's in what I said. They seemed to be pushing what I read as NAI

Yet seem to find Dum apologizing suspicious enough to warrant a potential wagon

Firstly I already said it was mainly gut so I won't be pushing them, so you're misrepresenting my case here. There's also a large difference between why I think that read was NAI and why I think Dum's actions were scummy, which you seemed to ignore.

I am voting Salsa since the read on Dum isn't super strong but they've been overly apologetic which I am thinking may be them doing so to "protect" themselves from any slips they make, which I also think is a subconscious act since they're new to the site.

Combine that with the fact that claiming both orctin and Micc are TvT is actually a very good way to protect a potential scum (or at least disruptive player), without attracting suspicion, it has me wary. Not enough to warrant a vote, but enough to keep an eye out.

If you read them as SvT go for it, I don't and I am not going to push what I don't believe just because I may be read as partners.

If I had to pick, I'd say my top 3 suspects are, from most to least suspicious, Salsabil, Jackson, and Micc. However, there's still enough doubt that I can't pick a specific person to point the finger at rn. That said

It's early on day 1, it does not matter where your vote is as long as you're voting someone you think is scummy. I have no idea why you seem to think it holds a lot of weight in who you specifically vote.

As for this, I'll let you answer your own question.

Ignoring or

half-assing

day-play will make us lose, it's as simple as that.

Again you're misrepresenting. You clearly have scum-reads that are ranked in order, yet choose to not vote at all. Is that because you may be scared of the backlash possibly

For one thing, I never said lurking was what I had a problem with:

Jackson on the other hand has me feeling wary. They spent most of the first two days lurking

and then suddenly began posting a ton.

You also seem to have it in your head that I'm from another server and I'm not sure why. I've said multiple times both in this thread and in my introduction that this is my first time playing Mafia, I've simply had a large enough interest to know a number of rules and roles. The reason for me considering No-Elimination has nothing to do with PRs, it's simply based on the fact that with 7 town and 2 scum, unless someone slips up bad, our day one guesses are more likely to hit a townie than accomplish anything. I've basically stopped advocating for that anyway, you were just asking for instances of you trying to force confrontation and that was one thing that bugged me.

On the topic of aggressive and antagonistic not indicating scum necessarily, I actually agree. What I don't agree on is the idea that that means someone should be exempt from being voted. In my eyes, a townie that mostly causes problems and makes everyone go on wild goose chases isn't a help to the town cause and is unintentionally aiding the scum. As far as I'm concerned, Micc has done little to help in finding the scum and made us waste a good portion of time by making himself suspicious to several people, myself included, so if we can't get a good enough scumread to figure out one of the two mafia members, I don't think eliminating him would hurt us too much.

As for the post where you found Dum scummy, the reason I didn't include your reasoning in the quote is I thought it was fairly arbitrary and seemed more like the first thing that popped into your head because I asked than an actual valid read, I never intended to misrepresent your case. I mostly quoted that because while the circumstances were different, yes, it struck me as odd what you consider a valid AI and was one of the things that made me start suspecting that you might be trying to spark unnecessary infighting.

With the orctin v Micc situation, it wasn't that I read it as SvT, it's just what I already stated: it's a very good way to protect a potential scum, without attracting suspicion and wouldn't have been an issue if not for the oddities that I'd noticed at that point.

I fail to see how me using your words against you is misrepresenting. Even if my way of playing cautiously doesn't align with your sense of how to play well, it doesn't change the fact that that's why I have been so focused on being careful even with an early day 1 vote. In my mind, since hammering could come at any time for someone with high votes, voting carelessly early on is a mistake which is why I've been such a stickler for needing a good reason to change my vote.

As for why I haven't voted anyone else despite being able to rank my suspicions, I don't particularly care about backlash. Even if I get eliminated for a view I wouldn't have a problem as long as it helped town win later. The reason I haven't voted for someone new is for the same reason I said in my last post:

there's just too many possibilities with little to weigh things in anyone's favor.

While I can rank my suspicions, the difference is only by about 5% maybe 10% between each one max, which isn't significant enough to warrant voting yet.


On the topic of Dum's recent behavior, I have to agree, something's very off compared to how he was at the start. He's been jumping up my scumlist pretty significantly with each post, but I agree with orctin that until he has time to defend himself, a vote isn't warranted; though once he does so, if it isn't satisfactory and no one's jumped up in suspicion, I'm most likely going to vote for him.

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JacksonVirgo:
I suppose I should probably establish my stance on Micc to avoid further confusion. I don't think he's scum, but his playstyle has thus far only hindered our investigations, not helped, which is why I said unintentionally helping the mafia. Again, I've more found it odd that you seemed to get a bigger scum reading from Dum's initial posts which really didn't have much of substance to read from.
Reflecting on what I said about you seemingly turning us against each other, I think I might've been jumping the gun slightly. I noticed a few odd things and the more hostile environment after you began posting which likely influenced my statement. You can consider it me pulling it out of my ass if you want, I don't because there were reasons that I've already outlined, but it was definitely a bit of a stretch (I'll admit I'm not a very trusting person even irl so there's a good chance that a lot of my speculation might just be me jumping at shadows. I'll try to avoid unintentional accusations in the future as I never expected it to take up so much valuable time for so little payoff).
One thing I disagree with is this:

Also you should not worry about voting, as if somebody hammers prior to when is needed, they should be eliminated the day after and/or will give us more leads going into the night.[/b][/color]

I feel that the time lost by an early day end isn't equal to the potential payoff. Since hammering prior to time is a move that I only imagine scum would do if they were desperate, I can't imagine eliminating that person has a high likelihood of helping us. Not to say that it's impossible for it to be beneficial, it just seems unlikely to be so when thinking about it logically.
As for what you said about voting and intentions meaning nothing by themselves, I'll take it into consideration. I still feel like voting without much to go on is a bad idea, but you raise some valid points I hadn't thought of.
Playing this game in a vacuum of thought leads to a lot of recursive thinking, so I appreciate you countering my arguments. Even if I don't necessarily agree with everything you've said, it's definitely helped me consider things from some new angles.
With all that said, I agree that Dum is one of the most suspicious and while I'd like to give him time to defend, I also don't want him to use that time to think up an excuse.
VOTE: Dum

humaneatingmonkey:
If you don't mind me asking, could you please elaborate on why you like and dislike certain posts? I feel like just agreeing or disagreeing doesn't really add to the conversation or help us newcomers understand the flaws and strongpoints in certain arguments.
As for if I'm afraid to be lynched, no, feel free to vote for me if that's what you want. I'm still going to work on reading people regardless and if I get eliminated I get eliminated. Obviously I'd prefer that not to be the case, hence me trying to be more cautious especially early on, but I have no qualms if it does happen.
As for what I'm looking for in scum, I suppose my general strategy has been to look at it from the perspective of "If I was scum, is this something I would do?" when reading various posts and then comparing that with my gut instinct to determine how suspicious I find someone. I'm sure that's not the optimal way to do things, so if you have some other techniques that might be useful, I'm more than willing to listen.

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I ask because you're playing like you're afraid of being suspicious, but this answer told me otherwise, which makes me think that you're actually avoiding suspicion because you're scum. What do you think about that?

Not much of anything. I'm cautious by nature (thanks anxiety), but my goal is victory. Even if I'm eliminated, town could still win, so even if I can't contribute, I can still hold out hope that that's the case. Again, I'd definitely prefer to stay in so I can help with that, but I'm not concerned if I don't.

JacksonVirgo:
I suppose I should probably establish my stance on Micc to avoid further confusion. I don't think he's scum, but his playstyle has thus far only hindered our investigations, not helped, which is why I said unintentionally helping the mafia.

Is this saying you're retracting a portion of your older post where you said myself, Micc and Salsa are who you think is suspicious, because here you seem like you assume Micc is Town here when before you thought they were scum.

Yes, the recent posts and having more time to think and analyze has me pretty sure that you and Micc aren't scum, though nothing's changed with Salsa on account of the lack of activity.

May I ask what you're current reads are, no matter how "weak".

Hmm...for town I'm leaning towards you, Micc, HEM, and orctin. You all seem to be legitimately scum hunting and getting a read on others, albeit in vastly different ways. If I had to put a number it'd probably be between 60-75% likely for all of you.
Scum, I'm feeling Dum and Salsa most strongly. A lot of their behavior could be newbie jitters, but there's a(n arguably more likely) chance that they're scum getting desperate now that pressure's moving toward them based on their reactions and tactics. Certainty for Salsa's at about 65% and Dum is 75%
The others I don't have enough info to really decide one way or the other.

I gotta say, that play by Dum was definitely unexpected and the analysis was fairly well done. Unfortunately, I don't think taking the bait means anything; it relies on whoever it is not paying attention to the events of the thread which I don't see most of the active players doing, scum or otherwise. The rules at the beginning also said we have to state our intent to hammer on vote 5, which he didn't do. As far as I can tell, the trap did little to tell us about orctin, but did reveal a trickier side to Dum (though whether that will backfire or not remains to be seen).

navigatorv said this about Dum and then now says he thinks Dum is scummy

Much like with Micc, more recent posts and time to think have made me reconsider (for one thing that was before he responded with a fairly weak argument that was easily debunked immediately). My current thinking is that their little trap was a way to try and get heat thrown on a townie since, if he is scum, there's no way his partner would take the bait, but he might be able to twist it if any townies take it to be a scumplay. That does of course rely on the assumption that he is scum so take it with a grain of salt.
There's also the fact that he specified me to be town and no one else. My guess is he expected me to side with him since I was the only one to question Jackson on how he was suspicious and if he could get the idea that I'm trustworthy into people's heads, they'd be more likely to believe me and, by extension, him. Again though, this assumes he is scum.
Sorry if that sounds wishy washy, I don't like to think in absolutes, so I try to have a shred of doubt about my own arguments if possible.

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(Oh jeez, I must've messed up on the formatting somehow lol I think that means it's time for bed ^^')

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Alright, so seeing how the only person i had a town read on, just voted me, i think its fair i make a defense before going silent for the weekend.

First of all, his 1st argument completly relies on me being scum to make sense, by saying my little attempt at a trap, was a way to put heat on a townie. Is that possible? Yes. But just like i said in my analisis on Micc, while that is a possibility its way more likely that its simply aa normal bait.

Now onto his second argument.

Sorry to burst your bubble buddy, but if you think i put you as my SINGULAR TOWN READ, because i wanted you to vouch for me, you give yourself too much importance. The only reason that post even exists (wich you failed to mention when acusing me) was that i was going to be inactive for the weekend (wich im still going to, i just felt the need to write this). Oh yeah, and not only that, but i find it pretty funny you completly swinged opnions, coviniently during a time i wouldnt be able to defend myself properly.

With that being said, these "swings" in opinion could maybe be part of your personality, i cant know for sure without seeing town games you played in the past, wich dont exist. So for now, i just watch and wait, i guess.

I'd like to point out that I myself admitted that my theories could be false, they were just the things that made the most sense in my brain based on what's occurred so far.
The only reason for my second argument was because I was the

only

person you thought was town. It seemed odd since I didn't think I was acting any more or less suspicious than someone like orctin or NinjaStore.
As for me swinging opinions, I'm the type that when presented with new information tries to modify their own opinions. You've been acting increasingly suspicious as time goes on and I'm not the only one to notice.
The timing had nothing to do with you being gone, if you paid attention to my interactions with Jackson you should've seen that I initially was going to wait until you got back to consider voting for you. Their argument convinced me that it would be prudent to vote now and wait to see your reaction. Seems you don't do well under pressure.

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Also Dunn and navigatorv both mentioned that I have an aggressive/provocative personality... but I really don't know where that came from. Can you both explain?

A good number of your posts have been focused on seeing people's reactions and applying pressure in various ways. I don't know that I'd call it aggressive necessarily, but it does seem like most of your posts are for the purpose of probing for info.

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Wow, slow day today, huh? Everyone must be busy.

Sorry if i came off as very agressive.

No harm done. I can't imagine it feels good to have someone you vouched for turn on you so it's understandable that you'd be taken aback. I will be leaving my vote the same for now, but I hope you can manage to convince me to revoke it eventually.

And its not that you are the "only person i think is town" you are the only perosn i would bet on being town. I still have others on the "not quite town reads" zone where im not really confortable betting on it yet.

Admittedly, my wording on that could've been better. If you don't mind me asking (assuming this doesn't get drowned out by too many posts by the time you can answer) what specifically have you noticed about my playstyle that makes you willing to bet on me being town?

As for everyone else, I've laid out my current standpoint on everyone fairly recently, but does anyone else have any reads that they feel might be helpful? Even if there's something negative about me I'd like to hear everyone's observations on the group as a whole.

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Wow, slow day today, huh? Everyone must be busy.

Sorry if i came off as very agressive.

No harm done. I can't imagine it feels good to have someone you vouched for turn on you so it's understandable that you'd be taken aback. I will be leaving my vote the same for now, but I hope you can manage to convince me to revoke it eventually.

And its not that you are the "only person i think is town" you are the only perosn i would bet on being town. I still have others on the "not quite town reads" zone where im not really confortable betting on it yet.

Admittedly, my wording on that could've been better. If you don't mind me asking (assuming this doesn't get drowned out by too many posts by the time you can answer) what specifically have you noticed about my playstyle that makes you willing to bet on me being town?

Or at least did at the time if that's changed?

As for everyone else, I've laid out my current standpoint on everyone fairly recently, but does anyone else have any reads that they feel might be helpful? Even if there's something negative about me I'd like to hear everyone's observations on the group as a whole.

EBWOP

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Welcome back!

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Er, HEM you mind actually posting some substance? You're kinda acting rude with no real obvious goal. I dunno if you're just trying to get a reaction, but it's pretty off-putting tbh

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I more meant just calling someone weird with no real point being made was kinda uncalled for.
I agree that the introduction was odd, but how does just saying that it's "weird" accomplish anything but put off a new player?

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I'm not sure I understand what you're asking. Do you mean what am I doing by calling out your strange behavior? Why I've been playing the way I have? Or is it something else?

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I mean I wouldn't say that your general demeanor has been asshole-ish, but like I said, calling someone who just joined weird with nothing really productive added is pretty rude, yeah.
Anyways, I'm sorry if my wording was harsh, been having a shitty night irl so I might be a bit snappier than normal. I'll try to keep my cool better from now on.

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i think navigatorv is trying to vote me here, but can't really get himself to

Actually no, I still think you're town, I guess those posts just got under my skin for some reason, again, sorry.

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Wait, I'm a bit confused, whe did Jackson think that I was scared of being voted? I remember HEM thought that but can't remember Jackson ever saying anything like that?

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Honestly I don't think I've been able to follow the last several posts cause I think James has been getting people mixed up. I'd recommend re-reading the thread more carefully and then re-explaining your thoughts.

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Right, the "backlash" comment. Tbf I think while you will vote for what you find suspicious, I think Jackson only votes for what they think are scum moves. Even if I was scared of backlash, that doesn't necessarily mean I'm scum, whereas apologizing in advance for screw ups might have come off to them as scum behavior for various reasons. I could be wrong, but that's what I assumed based on their playstyle

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I think one of the hardest parts about this game is realizing that not everyone thinks the way you do so things that wouldn't mean much to you could be vastly different for someone else and vice versa

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Wait, duh, I just reread the previous posts and I think I understand what you were trying to say. You think that me and Jackson are the scum pair and that's why they didn't vote for me despite seeming to think I'm acting out of fear of backlash, is that right?

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Hmm, I dunno. Even if they didn't vote him, they still put Dum into the spotlight at a time that, as far as I know, no one really suspected him, which seems kinda counter-intuitive for scum to do so early on. The reason why they chose Salsa instead of Dum does make some amount of sense since, while Salsa didn't post often, they had posted in ways that could be construed as scum, whereas Dum was just a hunch based on his apologizing in advance.
I'm not gonna deny that the possibility is there, the logic just doesn't make as much sense to me.

[navigatorv]

nav, how did your read on Jackson progress over the game?

Well, initially it's like how my reads said, I was wary of them since a lot of their posts came off as odd to me. After we had our little back and forth, I started analyzing what I knew of their playstyle and came to the conclusion that they aren't scum which has stuck for the most part. There are still some things I question on occasion, but nothing's been big enough to change the read.

Why should we not be concerned about Micc if he's scum? We don't need to look for the "more dangerous" scum. Getting a kill on either scum on day 1 would put us in a great position.

When I thought Micc was scum, I had the opinion that he wasn't very good at hiding it so he could be eliminated quickly, whereas whoever the second one was was much trickier and who we should be focusing our efforts on finding. Having had time to think and analyze I came to the conclusion that he's not, though I still think that his playstyle is detrimental to town for whatever that's worth.

Now, on the topic of James, I'm having a hard time making his logic make sense. He's been focusing on Jackson finding Dum somewhat suspicious to be equal to them thinking that Salsa was scum. I get that the Dum wagon was slowly growing stronger over time, but if Jackson still didn't view any of that as scumplay, there'd be no reason to change their vote. Salsa meanwhile had done a number of things that Jackson said they thought was scummy and went dark once pressure started getting pushed on them which I wouldn't be surprised if they took that as further evidence. I won't deny that there were definitely others Jackson could've voted for in the meantime, but as someone who's only voted twice (and unvoted once), I can understand needing something major to change your mind.
I'm getting the feeling that Salsa had a scum slot. I found her suspicious while she was active

Salsabil got awfully defensive when Jackson called her out, moreso than I think was warranted. She's also kept her posts incredibly brief and without much substance. These things could be either poorly disguised scum behavior or simple newbie jitters and I'm not 100% sure which rn.
~~~~~~~
If I had to pick, I'd say my top 3 suspects are, from most to least suspicious, Salsabil, Jackson, and Micc. However, there's still enough doubt that I can't pick a specific person to point the finger at rn.

and now James has been acting very sketchy, focusing on one theory that completely falls apart if either of the two involved are town and completely ignoring the two he claims are the sketchiest individually (not to mention his analysis of them were very short compared to Dum, Jackson, and Micc, despite them supposedly being so high up on their scumreads). He's also been acting super jumpy when pressure's been applied, just like Salsa did, which seems indicative of someone new who's not used to playing mafia.
VOTE: JamesTheNames

[navigatorv]

I don't really get where you got the idea that me and Dum are fellow scum when I've pretty consistently been saying Dum was my top suspect until just recently, which I don't see the benefit of this early in the game. As mafia wouldn't my goal be to keep both of us alive for the time being since if my partner is eliminated I have to avoid all suspicion with no one to back me up? I could understand if we'd been a few days in, but we're still only on day one so throwing a partner under the bus isn't exactly a smart move.
As for the times I mentioned not minding if I'm lynched, they weren't just out of the blue, they were in direct response to someone asking if I was or at least implying that I wasn't. What am I supposed to say if not that?
You've kinda got me into a spot where I look suspicious no matter what I do. I ignore it and you'll ask why I don't address it as you did to Micc here:

Micc, why did you only bring up the vote count at #112 and not sooner?

Waiting for an answer on this. In the meantime,

VOTE: Micc

Meanwhile if I do I'm being "overly defensive" as you accused me of in my response to Jackson.
I just don't understand what you expect me to do here?

[navigatorv]

On the first day?

[navigatorv]

Huh. Fair enough. Doesn't seem like a smart move to me, but fine, I'll withdraw that objection.

[navigatorv]

Sounds like everybody's been having a hell of a last few days, myself included.
I think I've got my emotions more under control though, so apologies for the emotional instability I showed to a few of you.

Since no one's really posted anything, I guess now's probably a decent time for me to post my reads from everyone. I'm re-reading everyone's posts as I write this, so this is probably gonna be long since I'll comment on everything that jumps out at me.

Now, from the top based on the order we were initially listed in:

orctin

Spoiler:

To start, he had the opportunity to hammer Micc and chose not to. There are a few reasons he might choose to do this, both town and scum:
-First is his stated reasoning, he wanted to give Micc a chance to defend himself and also didn't want day one to end early, obviously a townplay.
-Second, he and Micc could be scum and he was trying to keep his buddy alive in a way that didn't look suspicious. Now that Micc isn't in everyone's headlights, he feels safer bussing him.
-Third, he didn't want to look suspicious by hammering without anything decisive, something which applies to both scum and town.
There are more possibilities, but those three seem the most likely.
The next thing I noticed was his defense of Salsa, which was admittedly pretty weak (93 assuming I'm formatting that right?). As I have my suspicions about Salsa's slot, that feels a little suspect, but nothing extreme.
Next was Dum's trap, which, once again, shows very little about orctin and more about the main two the trap involved. One thing I'm curious about is what he meant by a "better vote choice". Saying it that way seems less like he's voting based on who I thinks is the most scummy and more like he's focusing on which wagons have formed. It might just be me reading too much into it, but I couldn't help but notice that.
The last thing he did before he stopped posting for a few days was inform Dum that he was considering casting his vote on him. As Jackson noted, expressing intent to vote without actually doing so does little to apply pressure to anyone, so I'm not sure if this was a genuine intimidation tactic or something meant to seem town-aligned without actually advancing the game forward.
Then there's his break, which could be lurking with an excuse or could be genuine. As someone with plenty of irl shit going on though, I'm inclined to believe him, cause lying about stuff like that just for an advantage in a game is really not cool.

Overall impression: Mixed. He's done a number of things that might suggest scum activity, but nothing concrete.

Fizz Raab

Spoiler:

Mentioned having previous experience but not much, and that she screwed up somehow in her last game.
One odd thing to me is her reasoning for voting Micc was due to the same reason I did, him throwing a vote out for no reason. What makes it odd is that she waited until nearly two full days after his post to find this suspicious. It's important to note that this was after both I and Salsa had voted for him, which tells me that she was waiting for a bandwagon to form before placing her vote.
When HEM commented on her post being overexplained, she reacted very strongly to it. Admittedly the reasoning for voting her was very weak, so I can understand some of her reaction, though it does feel a little much.
Her back and forth with HEM continued for some time and when he asked her what she thought was a scum move, she basically described his playing style yet didn't vote for him implying either that she still found Micc more suspicious or that who she votes for doesn't truly matter to her.
Her next post was a solid two days later and only came after James had voiced that she was one of the top individual suspects, though he didn't vote her. Again her reaction was very heated despite the fact that most of the attention from that post hadn't even been directed at her specifically. She then turned the heat towards HEM for his one-line spams, which, while that could be a scum tactic (see my analysis on him for more on that), by itself isn't really indicative of anything. She cited catching a scum in her last game for using the same tactic (I'd presume this has nothing to do with her screw up, but as I don't find looking at meta that doesn't directly involve the current game fun, I have no way to say for sure), which feels like she's confusing correlation with causation.

Overall impression: Feeling scummy. While there's a chance that being relatively new can explain some of her odd behavior, so much of it together with no real town indicators is making me feel kind of suspicious.

Salsabil Faria and JamesTheNames

Spoiler:

Since they share the same slot, I'll be covering both together since I feel like their similarities can tell us more about their role than an individual analysis.
Salsa's initial post was a simple vote with little valid reasoning behind it, nothing really suspect their since we were still in the RVS stage. She later swapped to Micc for finding his argument too much of a stretch (either scum trying to add to a wagon that might actually keep momentum or a townie who felt that was scum-indicative).
She posted a reply to one of my counterarguments to Micc that was simply her giving me "town points". Seems like she was trying to appear to be contributing (and possibly pocket me/help strengthen her own vote) without actually doing so in any meaningful capacity.
When Jackson pointed this out, she responded with some sarcasm (that feels very passive aggressive to me) before proceeding to her counterargument, which, while petty, isn't necessarily AI on its own.
Micc asked her what her response to one of my posts that seemed to vindicate him somewhat was, but got no response as she quit shortly after. She did admit to having exams so it's entirely possible that those were simply taking up too much time or it could be that she wasn't able to keep up with the pressure of her role and needed to hand it off. Since she's no longer here we can only speculate, but again, I'd like to believe that most people wouldn't make up irl issues to avoid losing a game.
That brings us to James who immediately began with a gut feeling read list and then did his best to stop the fight between HEM and myself. These actions could be town but could just as easily be scum pretending to be town.
He then posted a much longer analysis that I don't entirely understand certain points of:
-His read on orctin lists a number of posts that should've affected orctin's reads supposedly, but upon examining them myself I don't really see how they conflict with what orctin posted.
-His read on Dum has him begin with saying he understood the reason for Dum's gambit, but then he got confused as to why he voted for Micc during it (despite voting for Micc literally being the key point of the trap, without which it wouldn't have worked in any capacity).
-His read on Jackson feels like a "why are you targeting my slot?" post that would only work if Jackson hadn't already explained their reasoning as to why they didn't vote Dum instead.
-Asked NinjaStore to post more despite NinjaStore literally being camping for most of the game thus far which I don't get, especially with how many others have gone long periods without saying anything.
After this Jackson pointed out a very important detail (that he made no comment about them voting for his slot) which he responded to by more or less dodging the question and asking why Jackson hadn't voted for me or Dum instead. He then proceeded to vote for them which doesn't seem like it was based on actual logic and more like a revenge vote since he couldn't convince them to target someone else.
Their feud continued for some time, but eventually James stopped responding (not sure if it was due to being unable to counterargue or simply feeling like things were going nowhere, both seem entirely possible).
Fizz Raab then took issue with his read on her and HEM (which I went into detail on in her analysis), but he managed to shut down her argument using some fairly decent logic (though there is some issue with HEM's posting, it's not quite as simple as Fizz made it out to be).

Overall impression: Scum-leaning. There are a few more town indicators for this slot than for Fizz Raab, but there's still quite a bit fishy that I can't quite believe is town activity for the time being.

Dum

Spoiler:

He was the first to defend Micc and accused at least one of the 3 voters (myself, Salsa, and NinjaStore) of being scum. He also claimed that the person he voted on hadn't posted still but didn't change his vote until I pointed it out. Honestly, that feels like a genuine mistake and not AI (not important, only pointing this out in case someone thinks I'm ignoring this for whatever reason).
The next notable post was his analysis which defended me, but put focus on Micc and HEM for his "not so townie" (the closest he had to scum) reads. Despite putting Micc there, he proceeded to defend him to some extent, but then proceeded to vote for him as part of a trap. My guess would be that he didn't actually believe most of the scum related things he said about Micc and was more trying to distance himself to help his gambit work out better.
After orctin voted for Micc, he sprung his trap and accused orctin of being scum trying to hammer someone. A few problems with that being Micc pointing out that it wasn't actually a hammer before Dum posted, that the gambit relied on the victim to not pay attention to the actual votes, and that the victim in this case was orctin, who could've hammered Micc earlier but chose not to. Even assuming orctin did fall for the trap, these things allowed him to keep his cool and pretty easily shoot down Dum's accusations.
After I voted for Dum based on my conversation with Jackson, he didn't take it well and, similar to Salsa, wrote a rather passive aggressive response, though he calmed down fairly quickly after I explained myself.
He really hasn't posted anything here since which I do find somewhat odd given that I'm pretty sure I've seen his name pop up as posting in other games.

Overall impression: Mixed. I initially believed him to be town, then found his actions suspicious, then began believing he was scum, but having gone back and reread his posts along with other people's impressions of him, I've found that I can't really get a good grasp on what's scum/poor town behavior, what's newbie jitters, and what I'm just looking too hard at. Overall I'd say there's the slightest scum lean, but nothing extreme enough to tip the scales.

NinjaStore

Spoiler:

Claimed he found Micc suspicious but wouldn't vote him because not enough discussion had happened and greatly disliked the implication that we should just vote completely at random and hope we get it.
After coming back from his camping trip, he said he found Dum's gambit to be scummy and wondered why Micc waited to bring up the vote count until after someone voted.
Shortly after, he posted a short analysis pointing the FoS at Dum, Micc, and me, before voting for me on top of it. His analysis isn't entirely unwarranted, I'll admit I've said some things that could very easily be construed as scumplay. Obviously any attempt to defend myself with excuses such as inexperience or emotional issues will probably just seem like me grasping at straws, but one defense that I feel is valid is that fact that certain posts are linked to but summarized in a way that discourages following the link without providing proper context (the most egregious in my eyes is probably the one that linked to post 137 which makes it seem like I voted Dum for no reason despite "complimenting" his trap and then brought up not being afraid to be lynched completely unprompted, both of which are blatantly untrue if you paid attention to the full post in-context.
He has yet to respond to my response so analysis has to end there.

Overall impression: Town-leaning. Overall, despite voting for me, I don't actually think NS is scum trying to turn things on me. Based on what he's said and done, I get the feeling that he's town who picked up on a false lead and then let confirmation bias do the rest. There are a few slight scum behaviors (taking things out of context, use of buzzwords like "defensive", etc.) but these feel less like intentional scumplay and more like unintentionally aggressive townplay.

While I'm here, I feel like it's important to discuss my initial response to the accusations. I'll admit, I acted rashly on account of me not expecting NS to find me the most suspicious. Having been dealing with some irl stuff, I let my head get the best of me and likely made myself look more suspicious in the process. Obviously there's nothing I can really do to change that. What I can do though is put my money where my mouth is. I have a proposition that I'd like to make. I understand if you don't want to risk potentially falling into a mafia trap, so I'll stay silent on it if you'd prefer not to hear it, but if you're willing to hear me out, I'd gladly share, even if the consensus turns out to be a "no".

JacksonVirgo

Spoiler:

Was the first to counter the idea of No-Elimination, which it seems that most of the players agreed with.
Spent most of the beginning lurking (makes sense given the sig), then slowly began responding to more and more as time went on.
Was the first to point out Salsa and Dum's potentially scummy traits and started the Salsa bandwagon which didn't pick up steam until James replaced her.
I noticed that things started feeling more hostile after they started posting and in my analysis unintentionally started a bit of a confrontation, though in the end we were able to come to a mutual understanding, especially once I started understanding more about their style of play and why they do it.
Not much else of note happened until they began feuding with James which seems to have died rather than settled. There's definitely some hostile vibes in here, but that's starting to seem more like a part of their personality than an actual tell.
I backed up some of their points with what I understood of their playstyle, which they confirmed and further backed me up when HEM viewed my move as scumplay. I can't deny the possibility that this was done to "buddy" up with someone that seemed to share their views, but it doesn't seem very in-character for what I know of their playstyle.

Overall impression: Most likely town. I'll admit, in the beginning I found them very suspicious and didn't like some of their views (there are a few points that still make me raise an eyebrow at too), but overall there's actually been very little beyond gut-feelings and correlation that I've found scummy. I'll admit, there is a chance that they're just really good at manipulating newer players, but as of this point I have no reason to assume that's more likely than them just being town.

Micc

Spoiler:

Boy oh boy, arguably the most controversial player here. Let's get into it.
Right off the bat, he's by far been the most outwardly aggressive player.
He does have a tendency to go into teacher mode which can be helpful at certain times, while others it comes off as condescending.
He's also very much not the type to easily accept any way but his own. I'm not sure if this is just how he is with newbies or if he's this way all the time, but it definitely makes it difficult to side with him if you don't already agree, which I think might be what started his early wagon.
He was the first to question orctin's reads, specifically the one on Salsa and gave a pretty decent defense of his position there.
When Dum tried to pull his gambit, Micc didn't say anything about the vote count until after orctin had voted, but before the trap was fully sprung. It's possible that it's poorly coordinated scumplay, but feels a bit more likely that he was curious about what Dum was doing but couldn't help but call orctin out for a potential (albeit false) hammering.
Since then he's gone quiet despite saying that he was going to catch up.

Overall impression: The wild goose chase. Overall Micc hasn't been the easiest player to deal with. For the reasons I've already outlined, he's somewhat frustrating and near impossible to coordinate with. However, despite my initial reaction to these traits, something tells me that, while definitely acting in a way I view is detrimental to town victory, it doesn't seem like scumplay, just the result of someone whose personality doesn't mesh well with the group. At the risk of putting suspicion onto myself (given that I started the initial wagon), I get the feeling that the scum have noticed this too and have taken advantage of it to get the group to pursue him instead. Honestly the most scummy thing about him has been his lack of presence as of late which I don't know whether that's him lurking or just genuinely distracted by flesh-world problems.

humaneatingmonkey

Spoiler:

Last but certainly not least, we have HEM, the closest thing to a wild card all game. Obviously since dsjstr never posted there's nothing to read there, so I'll only focus on HEM.
One thing that's noticeable about his playstyle is just how little he puts into each post. It could simply be wanting to focus on getting his point across as efficiently as possible, but sometimes it feels like active lurking.
His first vote was for Micc, but if his later post is true, he didn't actually agree that Micc was scum, he was simply joining the most active wagon.
He brought up the idea that having day 1 go as long as possible was the most beneficial thing for town to do, which definitely seems like something legitimately helpful to the newbie townies. Afterwards, he linked to a very long guide to tells which, again, definitely feels more town oriented than scum.
One thing I find fascinating but dangerous is that HEM has a tendency to request more information out of others (such as in post 91 and 92), yet doesn't seem to like when people do the same to him (such as his response to 172 and his complete ignoring of what James said about him in 178).
It also seems like sometimes he votes on a dime, whereas others he needs significant reason to change votes. I wouldn't say this is a bad thing necessarily (for one thing it definitely seems like it would make it harder for scum to manipulate his vote), but definitely adds to his "wild card" vibe and makes me want to know more about the way he thinks.
It's also interesting that, despite saying multiple times that he found me scummy, he's never chosen to vote me and even given me advice on how to behave as town, which could mean any number of things.

Overall impression: The hardest to read of all. As I said, HEM definitely feels very wild-cardish, which makes him hard to read and even harder to predict. His desire for information yet closed-off nature on top of many of his micro-posts feeling less like contributions and more like keeping up the appearance that he's doing so and his tendency to try to get a reaction out of people could be either signs of scumplay or signs of an aggressive yet calculating townie. The things that have leaned me most to him being townie are his advice which is generally town-victory aligned and that his unpredictability hasn't been used in anyway that seems anti-town, but I acknowledge the possibility that these are simply smart plays.

Apologies for the length, there was just a lot of information to parse through. Hopefully, even if you don't necessarily agree with everything I say, this can help everyone look at things from new angles and maybe understand my thought process a bit.

[navigatorv]

Also forgot to change my vote after going through everything
VOTE: Fizz Raab

[navigatorv]

(there are a few points that still make me raise an eyebrow at too),

Before I comment on anything else, can I ask what these points are

Mostly small things related to what you will and won't vote for (someone who you don't think is scum but is an active hindrance for example). Nothing that I can really imagine causing any major conflicts in the future and I'm sure as I get more experience I might come to understand some of them.

[navigatorv]

My only issue is his reads don't progress as naturally as I want it to be because he constantly flip-flops his reads according to who in the gamestate is the hottest viable wagon. This does not look good to me. But then, being caught changing your reads and still making an effort into committing reads points towards town. It could also be the anxiety he's talking about.

Honestly it's probably a combination of anxiety and the fact that I try to keep my theories as fluid as possible whenever a game involves reading real people. I don't really try to join the viable wagon, it just happens that most of the time, I tend to agree with what's been said by the majority.

[navigatorv]

I ask questions. You called me rude with no obvious goal and offputting. It's not the same.

I did ask you to explain yourself better, but my post was partially skewed by my current mood and the fact that what you were saying did come off as rude to me. I am sorry about that and I'll try to take what you say in stride from now on

[navigatorv]

Also going to bed now, but if you have any more questions or comments, let me know and I'll get to them tomorrow

[navigatorv]

What I can do though is put my money where my mouth is. I have a proposition that I'd like to make. I understand if you don't want to risk potentially falling into a mafia trap, so I'll stay silent on it if you'd prefer not to hear it, but if you're willing to hear me out, I'd gladly share, even if the consensus turns out to be a "no".

I'm curious. Shoot.

So we have about 3 days until the deadline for voting. While it seems like things have been narrowed down, we still don't have a consensus on who to vote for. My proposition is this: if we can't narrow it down so that the majority of town agrees on one person by 12 hours before the deadline, everyone eliminates me. Even though you wouldn't be eliminating scum, you'd still have a higher chance of finding scum on later days which is still a net gain.
Now obviously if I'm scum I could use this opportunity to try and convince everyone to vote for one of the three prime suspects, so if town agrees to this, I'll stop posting unless someone specifically requests a response from me.

[navigatorv]

Responses in green
[quote="In post 283, JamesTheNames"]

It would have been E-1 not a hammer.

At 64 Micc had me, Salsa, Fizz, and HEM voting for him. That would've been a hammer in a 9 player game.

~~~~~~~

It was an observation of what a person's good at not a defence, he did this for everybody and they were all weak if you consider them defences.

Micc specifically asked what about Salsa showed knowledge of the game. orctin pointed out posts that he thought showed that, but I agree with Micc that those posts really don't show anything he was talking about. That sounds like a defense to me.

~~~~~~~

Her back and forth with HEM continued for some time and when he asked her what she thought was a scum move, she basically described his playing style yet didn't vote for him implying either that she still found Micc more suspicious or that who she votes for doesn't truly matter to her.

Could have been a fake reasoning. This was pointing out.

I'm confused by what you mean by this.

~~~~~~~~

Dum's 50 is doing what Micc did, with less justification. Also considering it was rather early in the game, he should have also been bothered by more "RVS" votes, if we has truly bothered by Micc's.

I'm very confused by what you're referring to here, post 50 was Dum's post and none of the surrounding posts were orctin so I have no idea what you're referencing. As for being bothered by RVS votes, it's important to note that Micc was the first to do so. If someone were to have an issue with RVS, the first voter makes the most sense to target until you have a better read on everyone.

~~~~~~~~

-His read on Dum has him begin with saying he understood the reason for Dum's gambit, but then he got confused as to why he voted for Micc during it (despite voting for Micc literally being the key point of the trap, without which it wouldn't have worked in any capacity).

Dum listed 3 possibilities for what Micc is doing, basically, he is just being helpful, he is leading town, or he is pretending to be useful. Dum then goes on to say, that he thinks the first option,

just being helpful

is the most likely, then procedes to vote for him. If this makes a dot of sense to you I emplore you to explain it, thank you.

Your argument would make sense if it were a legitimate vote and not a gambit. But it

was

a gambit which, again, could not have worked if he didn't vote for Micc. You seem to understand that he was attempting a gambit, but don't actually understand what that gambit entailed and I'm not sure how that's possible.

~~~~~~~~

Jackson had 2 main suspicious all game, Dum, and my slot. When you pressure somebody and nothing comes out of it, be it they are afk, lurking, ignoring your posts, it makes completely sense to fall back onto your other suspicious slot. Instead of actually impacting the game with their vote, they opted to leave it on a player who wasn't responding or posting. They have gone on a lot about how expressing intent to vote has no impact, this is the same thing, but potentially worse. If they had any actual level of suspicion for Dum, they would have opted to apply pressure onto Dum. especially considering they're at least somewhat experienced, after the added pressure onto Dum and his responses, Jackson could have easily gone "You know what, Dum isn't actually scummy" or "You know what, Dum is actually really scummy". Why did they not do this? To distance themselves from Dum, to pretend to have an impact. They push everyone else to vote and apply pressure, so they can sit back and not get any suspicions around them. Also if it was a revenge vote for voting my slot, I wouldn't have voted Dum first.

Except they already admitted that their suspecting Dum was mainly gut 124. They later agreed with HEM that Dum's posts felt fake, but they never said that it made him feel scummy to them, so I don't know whether that matches their usual voting criteria or not. Again, just because you will vote because you find someone suspicious doesn't mean others will do the same; it's pretty clear that Jackson only votes on who they think is scum, not just anyone they find suspicious.
Your assumption here seems to wreak of confirmation bias.
As for if it was revenge vote for voting for you slot, I never said that. The analysis you posted came off like you were complaining about them voting for you without having any solid evidence to support you. The revenge vote came later for a different reason (

He then proceeded to vote for them which doesn't seem like it was based on actual logic and more like a revenge vote since he couldn't convince them to target someone else.

).

~~~~~~~~~
After this Jackson pointed out a very important detail (that he made no comment about them voting for his slot) which he responded to by more or less dodging the question and asking why Jackson hadn't voted for me or Dum instead.

I did respond to this. 189

Except the post you linked to is exactly what I was talking about. You didn't actually answer the question you just gave a vague reasoning then turned the question on them as I described.

~~~~~~~~

The next notable post was his analysis which defended me, but put focus on Micc and HEM for his "not so townie" (the closest he had to scum) reads. Despite putting Micc there, he proceeded to defend him to some extent, but then proceeded to vote for him as part of a trap. My guess would be that he didn't actually believe most of the scum related things he said about Micc and was more trying to distance himself to help his gambit work out better.

Almost like it's what my post was alluding to.

Except your post showed active confusion as to why he would even consider voting for him and didn't imply that you thought there was any deeper reasoning behind it.

[navigatorv]

can you please explain the motivation for this post? Is it only "Even though you wouldn't be eliminating scum, you'd still have a higher chance of finding scum on later days which is still a net gain" ?

I was thinking of ways to convince NS that I'm town and noticed that people still thought I was afraid to be eliminated. So I thought this might be the best way to do that. It wouldn't be beneficial for scum to try (unless it was some sort of WIFOM which doesn't seem super useful in a game with so many newcomers) and still avoids no-elim which most here (plus the wiki) agrees is worse than eliminating town.

I'm not doing this.
Why are you so willing to get yourself killed?

That's fine, like I said, everyone's free to say no.
As for why I'm so willing, it's not that I actively want to be eliminated. Quite the opposite actually. I just know that this is a game of information and trust. Since our information is limited and there's few ways to gain more at this stage, gaining trust is the best I could think to do to help us.

[navigatorv]

22
Random Vote
27
Random enquiry as to whether someone has played on a different site
36
Votes Micc for what she believed to be stretching in the first 2 pages of the game.
37
Grammar Correction
53
Giving town cred to Navigatorv for a post she liked
82
Sarcastic comment, explains idleness, asking why agreeing beckons suspicion.

83
JacksonVirgo says why they sus Salsabil.

I am not sussing you because you responded/town-read someone that has the same thoughts, I am just saying that's ALL you're responding to.

306
Dum does the same thing. It'll be interesting to see how JacksonVirgo explains how that is any different to what Salsabil did, considering Dum had a 151 post gap, with more than 4 days worth of content, compared to Salsabil with a 16 post gap, and less than 12 hours. We already know they won't answer this and will avoid it because they've been doing it all game and Dum is their scum buddy. We move on.

83

That sarcasm doesn't help your case, in fact it makes me more confident.

In terms of sarcasm or tone, 251, 89 and 248.

For fuck sake you can't be this dense. I am voting because of the intentions/tone behind their content not the content itself. Now stop fucking misrepresenting me I swear to fucking god

Oof look at that edginess.

Salsabil's first post, not scummy it is just RVS. Salsabil's second post, not scummy, just a random enquiry. Salsabil's third post, voting for RVSing too hard, not scummy. Salsabil's fourth post, EBWOP. Salsabil's fifth post, agreeing with someone, also not scummy. Salsabil's sixth post, sarcasm and saying agreeing isn't scummy, this is also not scummy unless if you're JacksonVirgo, then it is very scummy.
Let's say the issue was agreeing with someone, 42. 271. 306
These are all with the idea of "town points".
You also have all of the instances of HumanEatingMonkey saying they agree with things or disagree with things. Dum also blindly said they agreed with Navigatorv.
So clearly saying you agree isn't an issue, unless JacksonVirgo is a hypocrite but I don't think they are.
The issue is that it is all they responded to then.
Between her 3rd/4th and 5th posts, 16 posts had been made.
She responded to 1 of them, a bunch of them were fluff such as 49.
I wonder how many JacksonVirgo responded to, considering they're being picky on how much Salsabil responded to.
It is 2 if you were wondering.
Their response to 51 is trivial.
Their response to 38 is same as what Salsabil did in 53, but disagreeing.

It is almost like what I said here:

All of the pressure from a vote with no sustanence or logic forces me to respond to it.

is correct.

So NavigatorV considering:

Again, just because you will vote because you find someone suspicious doesn't mean others will do the same; it's pretty clear that Jackson only votes on who they think is scum, not just anyone they find suspicious.

How about you try and justify how a single instance of sarcasm, agreeing with somebody, and not replying much whilst being busy, would justify JacksonVirgo seeing Salsabil as a scum read instead of just a gut feel.
Additionally, what would you do NavigatorV?
You have suspicions of 2 people, one of them is afk one of them isn't. You can get pressure from one of them, get content from one of them, further develop your reads on one of them, if you end up thinking this person is town, you can go back to the original person. Would you waste time voting on the busy not responding person, or the one you get content from?
Furthermore, if you were suspicious of 2 people, and you decided to stay on the one you got no content from, wasting time and pressure in a very effective manner, would you then try and convince other people to do the voting for you?
Let's say you did this ^. Why would you do this? Distancing? To stay off the wagon? To pretend like you're having an impact and to hide so you don't get spotlight on you?
Of course this is entirely hypothetical and nobody has done this this game.

I don't understand why I actually have to explain how a read off of tone, sarcasm, lack of responding due to life, and the act of agreeing with a single statement is a valid Scum read.
I look forward to your explanation NavigatorV.
If you can somehow explain how any of that makes sense, and isn't hypocritical, I'll admit I'm wrong, and I'll stop chasing after JacksonVirgo.
Until then.

My. Vote. Is. Not. Moving.

This feels like you're trying very hard, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and try to look at this through the lens of a townie.

In regards to Jackson's reason for voting Salsa, it's important to note that while yes, many people have just posted that they've agreed or disagreed, Salsa's focuses exclusively on a post that backs up the vote she just made. That in and of itself isn't necessarily scum, but makes more sense to follow than someone just being overly apologetic. On top of that, their question

You don't have anythign else to post about other than those which is "backing up" your own vote in a sense?

really isn't sarcastic like you seem to think. Asking if a post has anything else aside from aiding the wagon you're apart of seems like a perfectly legitimate question to me.
In addition, Salsa posted six times before quitting. Of those six times, only two of them actually offered something of value for the game (her vote for Micc based on finding his post a stretch and her asking for clarification from Jackson). Considering that of those two, one of them was jumping onto a bandwagon and the other showed what is, in my opinion, unreasonable hostility over a single vote, it's not hard to see why Jackson saw them as potential scum.
As for whether or not they'll respond to Dum, I can't really say, considering they live in Australia according to their bio and as such there are a number of posts that may grab their attention more before they're available. I'd appreciate if they did, but I won't act like them missing one post in a sea of many means anything.

Can you explain why you suddenly switched to focusing on Fizz Raab out of nowhere then immediately switched back to Jackson? I assume you're trying to point out a place where Jackson could've tone-read someone as scum, but I can't really tell because you offered no explanation before or after.

Also, care to explain how you went from "unless JacksonVirgo is a hypocrite but I don't think they are" to "If you can somehow explain how any of that makes sense, and isn't hypocritical, I'll admit I'm wrong, and I'll stop chasing after JacksonVirgo" in one post? Do you think they're a hypocrite or don't you?

As for making sense of their decision to keep their vote on Salsa rather than moving to Dum, you're asking the person who voted once and then didn't move their vote until four days later after requiring a lot of convincing. Some people just require more evidence to change their minds than others. As for "convincing others vote for them" thing, that would imply that they encouraged others to vote for their choice, yet not once did they try to direct anyone towards Salsa. They encouraged orctin and I to vote if we felt as strongly as we did, but even then they didn't seem intent on trying to get us to go in a specific direction, they just explained that voicing intent without doing anything about it was no different than just staying silent.

Now then, let's go into your hypothetical situation. Right off the bat there's a problem because it assumes that the suspicions on both people are equal. Jackson made it very clear that they found Salsa scummy while Dum was merely potentially suspicious. Going off of what I did do in a similar situation (100), I likely wouldn't have voted for any of them and waited to see (I should note that there is a difference in that Jackson only had to pick between two while I had three and my suspicion was much more even between them than Jackson's implied about theirs). In that case, am I just waiting for others to do the vote so I don't have to or distancing myself? Or am I just playing cautiously?
Maybe they were waiting to see if Salsa would post and wanted to see if their vote still left any pressure on her. Maybe Dum never crossed into full on scum territory for them for whatever reason. Maybe they just plain didn't even think to change their vote since they were focused on reading people. Any of these could be just as possible as them and Dum being scum buddies.

I don't know if any of this has convinced you and I only bring it up because you asked for a response from me directly. However, assuming you are, in fact, town, I'd definitely encourage you to try more flexible thinking. Never allowing yourself any doubt in your own theories is more than likely to lead you down the wrong trail eventually.

[navigatorv]

Ugh, being placed as scum for no reason whatsoever is pretty stupid if you ask me with no clear evidence of my posts at all. What do I see is scum is someone doing one line posts without any contribution and it seems like the only time he has made more than one line posts is when I called humaneatingmonkey on it. Let's see you do more than that dude. Obviously, I don't see Jackson scum at all with his helpful posts. I don't know if you noticed humaneatingmonkey, but I'm not good at understanding posts sometimes. It takes me a while to fully get it. I have nobody else apart from you that speaks out as scum just at this minute. I have to go through all the posts to clarify a few more posts that aren't scum posts to me.

There's actually quite a bit against you imo. I've already outlined how and why your posts could be construed as scummy and the only defense you have for it is "but look at HEM!". If you really think HEM is scum, explain exactly how their posts are scummy besides them being short.
(Also, HEM has actually made several posts that were more than one line, it sounds like you need to go back and re-read the parts of the thread that don't just involve you because this is factually wrong)

What I can do though is put my money where my mouth is. I have a proposition that I'd like to make. I understand if you don't want to risk potentially falling into a mafia trap, so I'll stay silent on it if you'd prefer not to hear it, but if you're willing to hear me out, I'd gladly share, even if the consensus turns out to be a "no".

I'm curious. Shoot.

So we have about 3 days until the deadline for voting. While it seems like things have been narrowed down, we still don't have a consensus on who to vote for. My proposition is this: if we can't narrow it down so that the majority of town agrees on one person by 12 hours before the deadline, everyone eliminates me. Even though you wouldn't be eliminating scum, you'd still have a higher chance of finding scum on later days which is still a net gain.
Now obviously if I'm scum I could use this opportunity to try and convince everyone to vote for one of the three prime suspects, so if town agrees to this, I'll stop posting unless someone specifically requests a response from me.

Hm this post right here changes everything. Why would you admit about everyone eliminating you just because you think people will agree on you being scum. But it's funny you claim me as scum when you have no evidence of it. This right here speaks complete volumes with how nobody is speaking scum from this post and even hinting if you are scum. I don't know why you're coming out with this post that isn't something any player would say. So maybe I'll put you in the scum list as well just from this post alone.

I never said everyone agreed on me being scum. I admitted there was a place where potential scum might use this to their benefit and offered ways to prevent that from being used.
Again, you completely ignored the numerous places where your behavior read as potentially scummy to me and only deflect rather than offer a legitimate defense.
I do ask why you say that this post is something town would never write? What makes you so certain?
Additionally, if I'm scummy enough for you to tell me this, why not vote for me? We've gone through multiple times in this thread how intent without voting is meaningless, so why avoid putting pressure on me?

I'm sorry, I'm trying to see town from your posts, I really am, but you aren't helping your case at all Fizz.

[navigatorv]

Holy hell, feels like I walked into a different game there's sp many posts lol
Glad to see Jackson and James finally stopped going at each others throats. Honestly didn't expect HEM to jump on Jackson like that. I can kinda see it (and that does give HEM stronger town vibes) but I get the feeling Jackson's being legit here. No real evidence, just what my gut's telling me.
Johnny hasn't had much opportunity to post more than his impressions, but thus far I'm getting town vibes which strengthens my view that Micc was just a very aggressive town.
My vote's sticking with Fizz for now because she's got a lot going against her with little actual defense. It is true we wouldn't get as much info if she was eliminated, but I'm not getting PR vibes, so she's likely she's either mafia or an unhelpful town, neither of which would be bad to be rid of, rude as that sounds.
That's about all I've got since I don't have much free time at work, but I'll try to keep up

[navigatorv]

Here's hoping Fizz responds. Even if I think this is the best decision, I still don't like the idea of her getting eliminated without offering up something in her defense

[navigatorv]

Here's hoping Fizz responds. Even if I think this is the best decision, I still don't like the idea of her getting eliminated without offering up something in her defense

You have time to convince us otherwise.

You missed their meaning.

I understood their meaning.

You sure? Cause I still think she's scum and am keeping my vote, I just want to see at least an attempt at defense is all

[navigatorv]

Those are fake words

Welcome to maths.

Math is a social construct

[navigatorv]

Those are fake words

Welcome to maths.

Math is a social construct

I know too many Maths with Philosophy minors to be willing to discuss this again I apologise.

It's okay, I wasn't trying to start a serious discussion lol

[navigatorv]

My guesses would be irl obligations, not being able to think of a good defense, or some combination of the two

[navigatorv]

So how long until night falls and the thread is locked? Do we have to wait til the end of the deadline or is it just at mod discretion?

[navigatorv]

On the one hand, I'm glad we didn't lose any power roles, but on the other I feel bad that both my first and last suspects were town lol

[navigatorv]

On the one hand, I'm glad we didn't lose any power roles, but on the other I feel bad that both my first and last suspects were town lol

Do you mean chronologically, or in sus rankings.

Chronologically, since Johnny took Micc's spot

[navigatorv]

Also I have small suspicion on HEM from the NK, and then instantly posting to back their own ass up since the top town didn't die.

Are you referring to him saying we should assume Mafia is hunting PRs? If that's the case, I can see the potential, but it definitely needs a bit more than that to get me on the wagon since that just seems to be a decent assumption to make since they're the biggest threat to scum and they don't have to worry about sussing out who's town like we do them.
Not to say the possibility isn't there, but it definitely doesn't say anything definitive imo

[navigatorv]

Also I have small suspicion on HEM from the NK, and then instantly posting to back their own ass up since the top town didn't die.

Are you referring to him saying we should assume Mafia is hunting PRs? If that's the case, I can see the potential, but it definitely needs a bit more than that to get me on the wagon since that just seems to be a decent assumption to make since they're the biggest threat to scum and

they don't have to worry about sussing out who's town like we do them.

Not to say the possibility isn't there, but it definitely doesn't say anything definitive imo

JV has already been discussed a lot, but here are some early posts that stand out.

227 228

JV's tone is interesting. They emphasize that they are making reads rather than talking about the people they are reading.

Then there's this post:

one last thing JV, your sig says you're a tactical lurker. what does it mean?

Sometimes I don't post and just read the thread for a small while in a tactical way. For example, if I feel like I am tunneling someone too hard I step back and just watch for a while to see what happens without my intervention etc. More reasons too but that's the way I feel is the best explanation.

I also do it as scum

so it's not anything to read me on

JV drops this subtle "I'm town" instead of just saying "I play this way as both town and scum."

I'm curious how Ninja feels about what is highlighted in blue.

What's funny is I actually was wondering if that bit would be too much, but I didn't want people to latch onto the idea that I'm speaking about the scum in a way that didn't distance myself from them and go off on that train of thought. Guess I went too far in the other direction :/

[navigatorv]

Those are definitely some great starting points for analysis orctin.
Going by general vibe, Micc definitely seems the most outwardly antagonistic. Not sure if that's a sign of him being Mafia or just an aggressive playstyle; both seem equally likely at this point. I'm very curious to see his reaction to being at E-1.
That said, while we do need to figure out who to eliminate today, this is a 2 Mafia game, so we do need to consider who might be a secondary guess after our primary choice. Not to say that we should focus all our efforts on that (chasing two hares and all that), but it's definitely something to keep in mind.
Another thing as well might be to change our thinking style. While we can definitely say that we're suspicious of several people, one thing we could consider is trying to figure out who's pro-Town. I will admit there is a potential flaw there in that it might help Mafia decide on a target so it might be best to keep quiet to ourselves about our thoughts on that front for the time being, I just thought it might help make analyzing easier.

I get a weird vibe from how nav overexplains town strat in this post.

I don't really have a defense here. It was early in the game and I wanted to be useful, so I thought of ways to strategize and shared them. Sorry if they were overexplained

[navigatorv]

I'll respond to James' accusations later, busy with work rn

[navigatorv]

Seems I'm not too popular lately. I'm curious, what about my behavior has everyone suspecting me being scum? It's just odd that we ended day one with most everyone agreeing I'm town, but now there's been at least three people to suspect me and I don't know what changed.
I'm not really sure where everyone stands in my mind rn. I think being completely off base with my vote has me questioning myself so I think I ought to read through the thread again

[navigatorv]

Just a quick heads up, I'm gonna be a bit busy the next few days so imma take a V/LA until Sunday. I'll do my best to catch up then and hopefully be more active starting Monday

[navigatorv]

Finally back, I'll catch up today and hopefully post something either later tonight or tomorrow morning

[navigatorv]

Sorry for the holdup, had something come up last night so I've had to skim posts between orders today.
I'll probably do a more detailed read list proper later, but for right now, a few things have popped out to me.
For one, unwnd's opening feels very LAMIST to me. Just bringing that up in the first post with no prompting just feels off.
In Super's case, early on catboi asked you if you were acting the way you were to him because tou know him or because he's easy to pocket. You responded with "both". Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't pocketing typically a scum tactic? I don't know if that was a slip or not, but it definitely felt odd nonetheless.
Orctin's definitely starting to seem more sketchy. I'll need some time to focus on the thread, but I'm leaning on voting for him atm. I do agree with him that all the subbed slots make getting good reads hard though

[navigatorv]

This feels less like Mafia and more like musical chairs...

[navigatorv]

Hey all, sorry for replacing out, the constant subouts just made things too hard to follow lmao hope everyone had fun, thanks for hosting Cabd! ^^

[navigatorv]

Oh yeah, once life's a little less hectic for me I'll give it another go. I appreciate what you said and hope we can play properly someday ^^