Jigsaw's Revenge - Game Over

[Gamma Emerald]

awww shit.

ABR claimed neighbor without power, didnt he . . .

Yet ABR claims to be a bland child VT with no abilities whatsoever

I sure hope to see your votes on ABR soon if you haven’t done so already

[Gamma Emerald]

guys. seriously. ABR is either using a mod fake claim of survivor neighbour, or his actual role is survivor neighbour. do not jump on him because you think the role is fake. it is not.

Maybe the mod provided them a group of fakeclaims for all scum to use. Maybe only 1 survivor fakeclaim was provided, and it was already used by momo

This makes no sense because obviously specific people are in specific hoods? They can’t just switch around willy-nilly.

[Gamma Emerald]

@BM You're seriously misinterpreting me. The main thing holding me back from ABRs lynch is not the key. The key is an extra block added to the tower of reasons in my head for me not wanting to lynch him

See this is exactly what I felt was the case. It’s not the only thing but it

looked like it

because MT latched onto it in the way scum do.

So you think I would only use the key as an extra incentive not to lynch ABR if i were scum

(>﹏<) ok..

In reality, i feel theres no stopping BM's wrath at this point and i wanted to see if the key would convince BM to wait 1 extra day. cause i wanna lynch elsewhere

I’m not saying you only use the key as a point as scum, I’m saying the way you did it (the turnaround BM pointed out) was scum indicative.

Also the tone of the last line is pretty bad, it feels like scum trying to recoup what they can from this situation.

[Gamma Emerald]

The fact is theres a lot of players here and majority is town, if you let 1 town player tell you who to lynch based on their biased opinion without thinking for yourself, because your head isn't on the chopping block yet, then it's going to be a tough uphill battle to win for town.

Then why did you let BM lead you into lynching Xtoxm?

This is scare tactics, plain and simple.

[Gamma Emerald]

1. It's game breaking if the Acolytes are all in their real PTs

2. Logan wasnt in the support group. Which is your theming. You have a picture of chairs in a circle or something, ya? That's your theme, and only you and momo's fake role fit with it.

That fact that Corbett and Perez don't align with this theming just makes it even more apparent that the hoods dont perfectly align with role flavour. Corbett IS either ABRs real role or his fakeclaim. Corbett is considered a Jigsaw Survivor. It doesnt matter if Logan is considered a jigsaw survivor or not-- any character can pass as one if Corbett can

1: no it’s not, I just had a Mafia game get broken by the setup and that wouldn’t do it. There’s enough possible scum flavors for it to be a challenge to hunt by flavor.

2: You don’t know that for certain, or do you?

i do, Pine told me in our PT. Perez and Logan do not fit with that theme. BM's role and Simone do.

Blake please confirm these claims MT is making about your hood contents are true, false, or somewhere in between.

[Gamma Emerald]

Oh also @Gamma

There are only 5 jigsaw acolytes that I know of: Gordon, Hoffman, Jigsaw, Amanda, and Logan. And there are 5 scum in this game.

Not enough scum flavour. So I do think it's a bit broken.

I refuse to believe that’s all the possible scum across 6 movies (I know I’m right with this number).

[Gamma Emerald]

ABR isn't a VT by his claim, he's a Neighbor.

Depends what "Role Madness" entails, if it's as SirCakez defined it, then ABR is plausibly what he claimed

SirCakez literally said every person has “an ability and something to hide”. While momo was just a mafia neighbor he certainly had something to hide. Imo being a Plain-Jane Town neighbor isn’t enough to fit that bill.

[Gamma Emerald]

@MT

The only way out of this is for you and I to stop defending.

Stop the discussion now before scum gain momentum.

We should just go on the attack on Danny, and spam the thread 1000x times about Danny being scum and ignore everyone else, and call into question anyone defending Danny, and attack attack attack.

lul

[Gamma Emerald]

Everyone wants to cherry pick things, but who has done a deep dive into danny's iso? Oh, what deep dive you say? HE MADE FIVE POSTS IN THIS ENTIRE GAME?

Interesting you were so hung up on Blake before, here you lock onto Danny, and later you shift to BM

You’re not genuinely scum hunting. You’re doing whatever’s convenient.

[GuiltyLion]

so a few fundamental flaws with the initial case and why I'm not convinced by it, chunked into a few posts for readability:

1. PT Behaviour on Day 1 and post-lynch:

I noted at outset of Day 2 his behaviour in PT is exactly what I would expect from him as scum (and only Momo's behaviour made me think he was clean).
He was initially not keen to throw suspicion on others in the hood, and just wanted everyone to follow him. He just 'assumed' Momo and I were town, and only suggested Pine was scum when Pine wouldn't toe the line. ABR was non-committal on my Momo scum-read, and didn't engage with it until after the flip. After the flip, he was excited and jubilant, and claimed credit for the lynch.

This doesn't match with what you said yesterday:

I mean, ABR is in a hood with me (and formerly Momo-scum), I can tell you with absolute confidence that the way Momo acted towards ABR in that PT, is NOT the way scum acts towards a partner. Is it conceivably possible ABR is scum? Yes. Is it remotely likely? No. Should we be discussing it today? Obviously not.

You don't mention Dany at all, despite the fact that he has been a big focal point today. Instead, I assume he is your unnamed 2nd favourite lynch for today?

Also note the last bit here ^ shading Blake on not pushing Dany hard enough? Good to remember if/when Dany flips red.

You also doubled down on this when pressed by Blake:

Battle Mage.

Answer the question.

There's no question here. Let me ask you something instead - how do you think I could have confidence in anything you say when you don't read my posts properly and with due respect? when you have not engaged with the trends and key issues in the game? and when you are trying to waste time and obfuscate affairs by throwing shade at people who we are clearly not lynching today?

This conversation is a waste of time. I know you are smarter than this, and so I have to believe there's a chance you are scum protecting Xtoxm, but I'll lynch him first to find out.

[question above referring to why BM is sure momo/ABR are not buddies]

Boy, sure is a shame you didn't elaborate on why ABR/momo could not possibly be partners yesterday!

EVERYONE PLEASE READ THE ABOVE, IT IS IMPORTANT. REST OF THESE POINTS ARE LESS IMPORTANT (but still you should read them)

2. Flavour:

As noted in my setup theory, I think Amanda Young is highly likely in the game, as a survivor. ABR has instead claimed, in the PT, that he is Corbett Denlon - the child of 2 confirmed townies. She was not a prominent feature of the film franchise, so I'm not sure she would be a character in the game, especially given both her parents were. She was also never subject to Jigsaw's traps, so I wouldn't really call her a 'survivor' at all, and she'd be way way down on the list of likely survivor characters compared to Amanda Young. Gut says it MUST be a fakeclaim.

So the argument here (built off the setup spec), is basically that ABR's claim cannot be true because she was not a prominent feature of the film franchise, and that she doesn't belong in the survivor group here. It's already been covered by MT in 1986, I'm not convinced by this and I generally don't support flavor cases to begin with, the mod gives fakeclaims so by definition scum cannot/should not be caught by virtue of flavor claim alone.

3. PT Behaviour Night 1 onwards:

During Night 1, ABR suddenly became frantically active in the PT, having neglected it for a while before that (me and Pine were both stuck in traps at this point of course). He claimed his role and flavour, and also claimed that Xtoxm was a "mailman" (incidentally, not what he flipped), and then gave the story I repeated yesterday in order to make me suspect Xtoxm, which on reflection may not have been true. He was not keen on my suggestion of lynching those not in a PT, which suggests if ABR flips scum, there is some more credence to it. I made it clear that I didn't trust him (by not reciprocating his claim, or sharing info about what happened to me in my trap), and since then he has become very angry and aggressive in the PT.

Unfortunately none of us can verify this, so, not sure why you are using it in your case. It also feels misreppy throughout - "frantically" active, the shade about 'mailman' semantics (effectively, yes, Xtoxm

was

a mailman), 'very' angry/aggressive.

[GuiltyLion]

4. Momo wagon:

ABR was not at all eager to get on the Momo wagon, despite my endless cajoling, and the fact he was pretty happy wagonning everybody else.

Not true, especially the "despite my endless cajoling". You didn't formally push the case strongly until after Hectic claimed. If anything, I think ABR's 1320 was the real turning point to momo and it was entirely consistent with his play up to that point.

I also think this would be the strongest point in your case if true and you believed it, so it's odd to me you only give it a one liner. It feels to me you know you can't substantiate this.

5. His approach to the hood:

ABR was very keen to reveal the identities of people in the hood, has put lots of effort into protecting everyone in that hood during the day, and has taken a firm line that 1 scum-flip confirms the others as town. Which is exactly what he would do as scum, knowing that 50% of the hood was scum.

"

ASSUMING

he's scum, then his play fits a scum agenda!". This is backwards and faulty reasoning. It's equally plausible that he plays this way if he is town, believed 1 scum in the hood, and believed you/Pine to be town.

6. No Traps:

If ABR was town, I think he would have been high on the list for scum to trap. He has claimed that he doesn't have any immunity to this. This is not conclusive, but very suspicious given scum have focussed on other veterans like me and Farside.

I agree the trap choices so far have been odd given D1, but I also think town doesn't have enough info about how the traps are decided to make this kind of argument in the way that you're doing. MT and I were both put into traps immediately after D2 ended, that's not enough time for scum to be making decisions based on the outcome of D2.

[GuiltyLion]

ABR and BM have very similar posting styles so I realy don't get this hate. BM is playing the same as he did in day 1 and he loved him there.

VOTE: ABR

GROOOOOOSSSSSS

what's completely missing from this post is any reasoning why Dany thinks ABR is scum

[Gamma Emerald]

Spoiler: new reads

TOWN BLOCK //
Battle Mage

HEAVY TOWN LEAN //
ABR, GeorgeBailey,

VaultDweller

MEDIUM TOWN LEAN //
Vecna,

GuiltyLion

WEAK TOWN LEAN //

BBMolla

Unsure //
pisskop,

Gamma

SOMEWHAT BAD LOOKS //
Blake, Davesaz, Drixx

TIME-OUT //
iDanyboy

Changes made in bold. No big analysis done here, just reaction changes made in light of recent events.

We need new material aside from BM's ABR case and my iDanyboy case. All you need to know about those should be in the last few pages (in theory). Let's have another multidimentional day like d1, rather than d2

I’m curious, what caused me and BB to shift here?

Also not a fan of what feels like you short selling the ABR case.

Vault going way up made me want to reconsider my weaker reads. A lot of people expressing scumreads on BB made me feel insecure about my read on him.

The odds of scum never putting a townie in a trap increased my paranoia on GL

. You i had really weak reasoning for town leaning so i decided it wasnt smart to put you above unsure.

im just generally not a fan of the case!

wrt the bolded, what do you make of the fact ABR hasn’t been in one either despite being much more vocal/influential than GL?

[Gamma Emerald]

Also, what if ABR is just bussing two of his teammates here for cred after he flips scum?

It’s possible but I personally doubt it.

[GuiltyLion]

OK some people may wonder why I am upset?

After Xtoxm got lynched I unleashed a torrent of anger on BM in our PT yesterday within the first couple minutes of night, and then ignored him for the rest of N2.

This level of incompetence on his part is mind-boggling, and I fully blame myself for the part I played in this yesterday, which is why I continue to be upset today.

Here's a question for the class

BM also said something to this effect, so to some degree we know ABR yelled at BM in the hood.

Why would scum!ABR do that? Why is that his plan, instead of simply buddying/killing BM??

I don't think BM/ABR really would have taken all that much heat from the Xtoxm Lynch yesterday - Xtoxm was playing a lurky game and didn't have great associative with Momo. Tons of townies scumread him. So why would scum!ABR flip out after a town!BM pushed a pretty straightforward mislynch?

It just doesn't feel to me like it serves a scum-agenda.

[Gamma Emerald]

Hey MT if BM is getting tired, do you think its because danny lynch is gaining momentum since we are making more posts than him and BM is starting to give up?

Nice leading question there pal.

[GuiltyLion]

Spoiler: new reads

TOWN BLOCK //
Battle Mage

HEAVY TOWN LEAN //
ABR, GeorgeBailey,

VaultDweller

MEDIUM TOWN LEAN //
Vecna,

GuiltyLion

WEAK TOWN LEAN //

BBMolla

Unsure //
pisskop,

Gamma

SOMEWHAT BAD LOOKS //
Blake, Davesaz, Drixx

TIME-OUT //
iDanyboy

Changes made in bold. No big analysis done here, just reaction changes made in light of recent events.

We need new material aside from BM's ABR case and my iDanyboy case. All you need to know about those should be in the last few pages (in theory). Let's have another multidimentional day like d1, rather than d2

I’m curious, what caused me and BB to shift here?

Also not a fan of what feels like you short selling the ABR case.

Vault going way up made me want to reconsider my weaker reads. A lot of people expressing scumreads on BB made me feel insecure about my read on him.

The odds of scum never putting a townie in a trap increased my paranoia on GL

. You i had really weak reasoning for town leaning so i decided it wasnt smart to put you above unsure.

im just generally not a fan of the case!

wrt the bolded, what do you make of the fact ABR hasn’t been in one either despite being much more vocal/influential than GL?

I think the biggest part of your case that interests me is how if Amanda Young is in this game, she'd need to be in the Survivor hood. If momo's flip is any indication, anyway. His real role (Logan) and his fake role (Simone) were both survivors.

AH. I just realized. Amanda isnt a Jigsaw survivor. Not in the way your hood implies it. Your hood is a scene from Saw 3D. It's a bunch of people sitting in chairs at a church in a kind of support group.

https://sawfilms.fandom.com/wiki/Jigsaw_Survivor_Group

Logan Nelson is not a jigsaw survivor as described by your hood. Simone is.

BM, are you on this list of characters?

Spoiler:

Bobby Dagen
Simone
Mallick
Emily
Brad
Ryan
Tara Abbott
Lawrence Gordon
Addy
Sidney

If you are not, then the flavour is not perfectly linked. Thereby meaning ABR's claim (Corlett Denlon) not being linked doesnt matter.

Sorry I referenced the wrong post earlier regarding all the flavor spec, this is the post that defeats BM's flavor argument.

[GuiltyLion]

also whoops accidentally quoted a Gamma post I was tempted to reply to but Gamma you're really obvscumming on the last page here lol

[Gamma Emerald]

And Danny is my 2nd top independent scumread, so definitely not defending him. But I don't like to settle for 2nd best.

It's so weird that BM doesn't want to lay a vote on his 2nd top "independent" scumread. Anyone else find that weird?

No it’s not. You don’t settle in circumstances like this. If he lacked the charisma to push it through, yes, but he clearly has it. So why should he give his top scumread an inch of breathing room?

[GuiltyLion]

BM I hope you are paying attention to how much Gamma is sucking up to you right now

[Drixx]

The only thing to say on this, is I am convinced ABR is scum. ABR seems to think I'm town, although did also crumb that I was Jigsaw (not sure why).

This dual approach is actually a scumtell and ABR’s actions recently add to this particular issue

The fact ABR didn’t even seem to think to push BM until Drixx initiated the idea is super awful. It also, despite my initial shocked response, probably indicates Drixx being Town.

I'm really getting serious scum vibes out of BM, specifically today.

And for ABR, getting ragey is a town tell. Or at least it was a few years ago.

[GuiltyLion]

Just an FYI if we decide we want to lynch ABR today we should instead give him a day to hand off the key and revisit the next day

Plus like BM’s speculation means ABR isn’t likely to be Jigsaw anyway so that’s another reason to not lynch there yet

how did you evolve from this to voting ABR? lmao

if ABR has the ability to hand off the key then he should hand it off so a universally townread townie can have it. If he does not, that's nearly a scum claim immediately and we lynch him after that.

Danyboy remains a superior lynch

[GuiltyLion]

Also the key giving can be roleblocked so I don’t think we can try to conf anything off the key so never mind the idea of sparing ABR for the key

eh actually alright this is fair and I missed this when skimming earlier

[Gamma Emerald]

Spoiler: new reads

TOWN BLOCK //
Battle Mage

HEAVY TOWN LEAN //
ABR, GeorgeBailey,

VaultDweller

MEDIUM TOWN LEAN //
Vecna,

GuiltyLion

WEAK TOWN LEAN //

BBMolla

Unsure //
pisskop,

Gamma

SOMEWHAT BAD LOOKS //
Blake, Davesaz, Drixx

TIME-OUT //
iDanyboy

Changes made in bold. No big analysis done here, just reaction changes made in light of recent events.

We need new material aside from BM's ABR case and my iDanyboy case. All you need to know about those should be in the last few pages (in theory). Let's have another multidimentional day like d1, rather than d2

I’m curious, what caused me and BB to shift here?

Also not a fan of what feels like you short selling the ABR case.

Vault going way up made me want to reconsider my weaker reads. A lot of people expressing scumreads on BB made me feel insecure about my read on him.

The odds of scum never putting a townie in a trap increased my paranoia on GL

. You i had really weak reasoning for town leaning so i decided it wasnt smart to put you above unsure.

im just generally not a fan of the case!

wrt the bolded, what do you make of the fact ABR hasn’t been in one either despite being much more vocal/influential than GL?

I think the biggest part of your case that interests me is how if Amanda Young is in this game, she'd need to be in the Survivor hood. If momo's flip is any indication, anyway. His real role (Logan) and his fake role (Simone) were both survivors.

AH. I just realized. Amanda isnt a Jigsaw survivor. Not in the way your hood implies it. Your hood is a scene from Saw 3D. It's a bunch of people sitting in chairs at a church in a kind of support group.

https://sawfilms.fandom.com/wiki/Jigsaw_Survivor_Group

Logan Nelson is not a jigsaw survivor as described by your hood. Simone is.

BM, are you on this list of characters?

Spoiler:

Bobby Dagen
Simone
Mallick
Emily
Brad
Ryan
Tara Abbott
Lawrence Gordon
Addy
Sidney

If you are not, then the flavour is not perfectly linked. Thereby meaning ABR's claim (Corlett Denlon) not being linked doesnt matter.

Sorry I referenced the wrong post earlier regarding all the flavor spec, this is the post that defeats BM's flavor argument.

The reason this doesn’t refute it has already been covered, are you actually all caught up currently?

Also “obvscumming” ffs this is the most confident I’ve felt in a long time about my handle on the game so let me have this moment ok? If I’m wrong then I’ll swallow my pride and try to go from there but I want to be able to relish being right if I am for once. I’m trying to actually build a bit of an ego for myself because that’s my main weakness as town it seems.

PEdit: I am

not

sucking up to BM, honestly he’s doing that to me with how he’s patting me on the back if we want to get into that. I’ve just been working with him a lot because our thought processes are running on similars tracks.

@Drixx idk if I’d call the behavior by ABR “ragey”. Seems more passive-aggressive, especially recently.

[GuiltyLion]

The reason this doesn’t refute it has already been covered, are you actually all caught up currently?

link me to that post?