A Feast for Crows Mafia - Valar Morghulis.

[Mina]

EBWOP:

This vote may change after I look for town and scum meta of FC, when I see if he's a loltroll player, but if not, I'll probably vote him.

Yeah, as should probably be obvious, this post originally didn't contain a FC vote, but I changed my mind and forgot to edit the last part).

There's stuff I want to say to MoI and Magua, but maybe later.

[Mina]

Hey, Fourseen! I see you lurking in this forum. Your presence is requested in this thread.

Town:
Monday - don't you fucking touch Monday he is god damn town
Magua - yay out of game reasons (not cheating...)

If there is anything that you gain from my lynch it is that Monday is Town and Fourseen is not.

I just ISO'd Monday, and where did this come from?

She has four posts, and she hops onto your wagon for the colour slip (as did other people). She doesn't unvote you.

Out of curiosity, where did you get such a strong town read on her? More importantly, how would a town flip on you

clear

her (and only her)?

This is annoying, because I'll have egg on my face if you're scum, but to be honest, this feels a bit like you're trying to leave WIFOM trails after your flip.

[FourseenCircumstance]

Blargh, you disgust me, filthy fool knock on my door at these late hours. what Is it you have with me?

[Plum]

Plum coming in with Oversoul-town too -- it's frankly bizarre.

Color me someone who's learned some of her weaknesses in the early scumhunt.

*hands note*


"No it doesn't plum, the natural result of his case being correct is that oversoul is almost definitely not scum aligned with benmage, it's a result of his case not something he presumes to make the case work.

It's obvious he didn't consider this implication, so let me ask, what makes that scummy?

The way in which MoS made the case against Ben would necessitate, if sincere, some evaluation of the likelihood of Oversoul-scum on its own terms because if that gets plausible, the entire case is gravely weakened. Look, maybe I'm complete crud at explaining these things, but MoS dissociated himself from having to produce any read on Oversoul - and imply that Ben is scum because he's acting in a way that's scummy assuming Oversoul is Town. He doesn't have to get into the dilemma of attacking or white-knighting Oversoul while he accuses someone of being scummy for what he frames as insincere white-knighting. If you don't think that's scummier than explicitly avoiding giving a stance on Oversoul, fine: that's still scummy. So is the falseness - the clear falseness and opportunism in framing Ben's actions as insincere white-knighting (opportunism is further suggested by this coupled with avoiding Oversoul himself, by the way - he homes in on statements he can spin as dissonant without actually showing some investment in scumhunting in general e.g. reading the guy with a huge wagon at the beginning of Day 1/what to do about it).

Do not like this at all, reads as "I'm showing I don't like your slot, but not gonna push it cause it would be unpopular". It's very survivor-mentalityish, I don't like it at all."

No indeed. I'm noting something potentially scummy on CES' part. Doesn't mean he's my top suspect, nor that I'm yet very confident in my read of him (partly because I lack confidence, often, in reading people who suspect mw. If the wording was more passive-aggressive than direct, chalk it up to frustration with the guy; the cause ought to be evident enough. Dunno why I bother at this point.

Will Shadow shut up about his weekend V/LA? I mean. Seriously. The guy pops back in tocomplain about being voted because I'M ON V/LA AND I HAVE A LIFE AND IT'S ALWAYS LIKE THAT SO IT'S NOT SCUMMY SO DON'T TRY TO RESTART THE WAGON ON ME ON SUNDAY FOR THAT REASON. Um, no. In fact

This is consistent with any game I've ever played, and if you're too lazy to check it, that's not my fault.

...

I don't discount scum on both sides of this issue (likely one on the bandwagon, one 'white knighting' me, see: Oversoul, Benmage thusfar). Might just be over-paranoia. I answered this later as well. Continuing on.

Both of those lines are fairly scummy-defensive.

Sooo, it's been nearly 300 posts, and my one comment at Littlefinger is banter, and not a single other person is guilty of this? Have you been ignoring the entire game at this point? It was the start of the game, where there is little to no content until generated, which I would say I was successful in bringing many people into discussions. Where's your contribution in this huge wall of fluff?

I may have made a mistake regarding when the comment was made in my response about it; I've skimmed the context again and agree it was barely anything. I think I thought it was on page 8 for some reason . . . my bad. Sorry. Regarding my feelings about your high-road tone, they stand. Regarding your accusations of disjointedness/parroting, feh. Plum is female.

Moderate Townread on Wraith.

So now would be a good time to take the opportunity to put pressure on me while I have 4 votes already, or try and start a bandwagon on Feysal whom you've just called out for lurking in the same post... oh wait, you're trying to resurrect Shadow's dead bandwagon instead. Are you just attempting to throw suspicion around randomly?

Adding MoI to the suspect list.

First time I skimmed this quote I thought it a bit scummy, but actually looking at it - Town thought process here seems more likely.

I find I usually don't see eye-to-eye with Plum, since she tends to write long explanations for why a single sentence or contradiction makes someone scum, whereas I'm more of a holistic scumhunter.

It's not always the style I'd prefer, but changing one's style like that is a lot of work. I tend to explain gut to death. Probably I'm a much better scumhunter when it's just me and a gun with no Town to talk at.

PREVIEW EDIT: FOURSEENCIRCUMSTANCE, PLAY THE GAME OR DIE.

[Mina]

Before going to bed:

FourseenCircumstances, who do you think is scum? Who do you think is town? If the answer is "no one" to those questions, then replace out.

MoI, if your sheeping comment on Benmage was a reaction test, then why did you never follow up on it? Why did you only mention it was a test when I called you on it? Shouldn't you have posted something in the thread like, "Benmage, why are you letting me get away with sheeping you?" (Also, what kind of reaction were you expecting? Since when has Benmage objected to people sheeping him? )

I both misphrased my thoughts on CES and goofed up:

Also think his essentially saying his only scum read is Plum when questioned seems atypical for CES. Isn't he the one who admitted to bandwagoning for the sake of it afterward?

For some reason, I'd thought his vote was still on Plum. What I meant is that he was calling Plum scum with utter conviction, and then said he didn't have another candidate for Scum #2, but when asked to explain his vote, he said it was bandwagoning. Now I just noticed he was voting greenknight, so...yeah.

CES, what are your thoughts on Plum's most recent posts? Is she still your top scumread? Do you want her vigged? Are you disappointed that Benmage lured Oversoul off her wagon?

-I need to reread the thread with a focus on Shadow and Oversoul, because my white-knight instinct makes me want to assume they're town even when they post outrageous things.

[Monday]

When I left my vote was on Oversoul. VOTE: Oversoul

It still feels a little awkward jumping in. All the meta talk is a little annoying.

Green is smelling a little townish to me. He feels authentic in general.

Plum is hard to read, literally. Is it just me? I find myself reading her posts five times over because my mind gets to wandering and eventually I realize that I've just skimmed the post for the umpteenth time and still have no idea what she is wrote. Hypnotic.

[quote="In post 599, Mina"]
-My vote on Monday was because her explanation of her CES vote was pretty terrible. But also, I know her from off-site and was hoping to get a reaction. [quote]
What kind of reaction were you hoping for? In your experience do lackluster votes on me in the early stages of play evoke a readable reaction? I don't understand why you wouldn't put a little oomph behind your vote and give the reason back then if it was meant to be even semi serious.

[Magua]

Yeah, I've read the entire game. By the way, is there some way to filter all posts by a specific player in the thread? I'd probably have more reads if I knew how to do this.

At the bottom of the page, there's "Display posts by user:" with a dropdown list with everyone's name on it. Pick the person, click Go, profit.

-One point in diddin's favour is that rather than hop onto the Oversoul wagon with a set of generic reasons to make it look as though he thought things through, he openly admitted he was sheeping Magua. His posts have been really lazy this game, though. Hey, Magua, you're the one who brought up that you were onto diddin in ASOS. Using your magic diddin-reading skills, do you think he's scum? See any differences between his play here and there?

I think diddin's town. It's not a strong read, and I only have ASoS for reference on diddin-scum-meta, but it's comfortable enough for me right now.

I agree on Benmage town, as well. I totally reserve the right to revoke this if he pulls another ASOIAF. That said, I continue to not agree with you or Benmage on Oversoul. Everyone seems to be all, "Well, he's playing like crap, towntell," when that's only true for newbies.

[Deity of Flame]

*hands note*


"No it doesn't plum, the natural result of his case being correct is that oversoul is almost definitely not scum aligned with benmage, it's a result of his case not something he presumes to make the case work.

It's obvious he didn't consider this implication, so let me ask, what makes that scummy?

The way in which MoS made the case against Ben would necessitate, if sincere, some evaluation of the likelihood of Oversoul-scum on its own terms because if that gets plausible, the entire case is gravely weakened. Look, maybe I'm complete crud at explaining these things, but MoS dissociated himself from having to produce any read on Oversoul - and imply that Ben is scum because he's acting in a way that's scummy assuming Oversoul is Town. He doesn't have to get into the dilemma of attacking or white-knighting Oversoul while he accuses someone of being scummy for what he frames as insincere white-knighting. If you don't think that's scummier than explicitly avoiding giving a stance on Oversoul, fine: that's still scummy. So is the falseness - the clear falseness and opportunism in framing Ben's actions as insincere white-knighting (opportunism is further suggested by this coupled with avoiding Oversoul himself, by the way - he homes in on statements he can spin as dissonant without actually showing some investment in scumhunting in general e.g. reading the guy with a huge wagon at the beginning of Day 1/what to do about it).

*hands note*

"No, it's not that you're crud at explaining things, it's that you're making too many assumptions about what point he had actually thought up to.

Giving half-formed thoughts is a definite towntell because scum has more of an incentive to think through everything they say do to survival mentality. Skill defines whether they make an error obviously, but going half-cocked without considering the implications of what you say towards other people's alignment?

Especially given the fact that benmage pushed himself into a very visable position and to attack him placed MoS in a similar position.

Do not like this at all, reads as "I'm showing I don't like your slot, but not gonna push it cause it would be unpopular". It's very survivor-mentalityish, I don't like it at all."

No indeed. I'm noting something potentially scummy on CES' part. Doesn't mean he's my top suspect, nor that I'm yet very confident in my read of him (partly because I lack confidence, often, in reading people who suspect mw. If the wording was more passive-aggressive than direct, chalk it up to frustration with the guy; the cause ought to be evident enough. Dunno why I bother at this point.

Then why don't you follow up on him, at all?"

[Eddard Stark]

Day 1, Votecount 18

Oversoul (6) - Magua, diddin, Hasdgfas, Deity of Flame, Wraith, Monday

Greenknight (3) - Benmage, Empking, Cogito Ergo Sum
Mastermind of Sin (3) Plum, greenknight, Oversoul
diddin (1) - Magister Ludi
Shadow1psc (1) - MagnaofIllusion
Cogito Ergo Sum (1) - Shadow1psc
FourseenCircumstance (1) - Mina

Not voting

(7) ooba, Albert B. Rampage, Mockingjaye, xvart, Feysal, Mastermind of Sin, FourseenCircumstance

With 23 votes in play it takes 12 to lynch.

• Deadline for Day 1
  : 15:29 GMT on the 17th of November.
  
• Countdown
  : (expired on 2011-11-17 11:29:00)
  
• Please point out any mistakes in the votecount.
  
• ABR is V/la
  
• xvart has been replaced with Zdenek.

[greenknight]

The way in which MoS made the case against Ben would necessitate, if sincere, some evaluation of the likelihood of Oversoul-scum on its own terms because if that gets plausible, the entire case is gravely weakened. Look, maybe I'm complete crud at explaining these things, but MoS dissociated himself from having to produce any read on Oversoul - and imply that Ben is scum because he's acting in a way that's scummy assuming Oversoul is Town.

I agree with this.

To me the point is not so much the content of MoS' argument, but the fact that he's focusing entirely on Benmage based on this single point, which isn't convincing enough to anyone else to vote Benmage. At first I thought he might have some sort of grudge against Benmage from previous games, but if that was the case I'd expect him to find more of Benmage's posts to pick apart. In fact, he's neither trying to further build his case against Benmage nor figure out anyone else's alignment. Especially when he responds to Plum later, it looks like he's just using his issue with Benmage as an excuse to avoid commenting on the rest of the game.

Plum, what's your opinion on MoI?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

-ISO'd CES, and am now leaning slight scum on him. Basically, the one point in his favour is that he seemed to be testing if I told the truth about my list (because he knew I couldn't have placed Cersei lower than second). Also, his vote for me makes sense. But it's not like I'd lie about my list as scum, anyway. I feel like he's more concerned about appearances than usual (for example, his "not fickle, bloodthirsty" post). Also think his essentially saying his only scum read is Plum when questioned seems atypical for CES. Isn't he the one who admitted to bandwagoning for the sake of it afterward?

Should've stuck with "I can't read CES for the life of me" 'cause you're just making yourself look bad.
1) I totally wasn't testing that - it was just non-game-relevant banter.
2) My vote for you barely made sense.
3) Waffly, not fickle. I wouldn't mind being called fickle, but waffly is an attack on my playstyle.
(4) Your last point would've been meaningful if accurate but as you acknowledged, it is not.)
5) You're pretty much ignoring most what I'm actually doing because it doesn't fit your preconceived notion of how we play the game yet at the same time you're interpreting a lot of my stuff conventionally (see 1)).

CES, what are your thoughts on Plum's most recent posts? Is she still your top scumread? Do you want her vigged?

Plum is scum. She needs to be doubleplusvigged.

Are you disappointed that Benmage lured Oversoul off her wagon?

Not in the slightest. He saved me the trouble of doing so myself.

Unvote, vote: Oversoul

[Benmage]

Mina, you need to vote somewhere useful please.

CES, why Oversoul now.... what new scumminess has he committed? Why not when he had 9 votes before...

[Wraith]

Unvote Vote: FourseenCircumstance

Done with this.

[zoraster]

Unvote Vote: FourseenCircumstance

Done with this.

Game over! You found the scumleader!

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES, why Oversoul now.... what new scumminess has he committed? Why not when he had 9 votes before...

The wagon didn't need me before. You've taken over my role as creator of counterwagons and the wagon is stalling, so I'm hopping on.

[Zdenek]

I'm currently working to get caught up (in Cersei's skirts). I'll post soon.

[Mina]

Wraith, why the vote-switch now?

Yeah, CES, I'm probably making myself look bad. Combined with my lurking, I bet if you pushed a wagon on me today, you could get me lynched.

*innocent cough*

CES, do you genuinely believe I'm trying to frame you/undermine your credibility/fake that I'm thinking about your alignment/etc.? Or is this just friendly advice that I should stop attacking you because people might suspect me for it?

I'll freely admit that I was trying to articulate a gut vibe that you were slightly--I don't know even know how to put it, defensive? Reactive?--and that I could be horribly off. Otherwise, you'd have been more than a slight scumread.

But instead of dismissing it as me not knowing how you work, why don't you explain the method to your madness? Did you get a read from Shadow by refusing to explain your stances? Have you done anything whatsoever this game with a concrete goal in mind? I also don't understand your point 5. Can you explain it more clearly?

I'd assumed the motive was obvious for the vote on me that people were calling scummy--I hadn't showed my face in the thread, and you know me, so you were clearly trying to poke me into posting. I lurked early in MLP, so the vote made sense to me from your POV. But apparently, I was wrong, and you'd just rolled a die?

Plum is scum. She needs to be doubleplusvigged.

Oh, I totally agree. I mean, look at the scumtells she's committed in her most recent post:

No indeed. I'm noting something potentially scummy on CES' part. Doesn't mean he's my top suspect, nor that I'm yet very confident in my read of him (partly because I lack confidence, often, in reading people who suspect mw. If the wording was more passive-aggressive than direct, chalk it up to frustration with the guy; the cause ought to be evident enough. Dunno why I bother at this point.

Here she is being wishy-washy on you and undermining your credibility. Everyone knows those are scumtells.

First time I skimmed this quote I thought it a bit scummy, but actually looking at it - Town thought process here seems more likely.

Look, more wishy-washiness. Another scumtell.

Find more Plum scumtells for me, please. It might persuade me that I was right in the beginning.

[Mina]

-My vote on Monday was because her explanation of her CES vote was pretty terrible. But also, I know her from off-site and was hoping to get a reaction.

What kind of reaction were you hoping for? In your experience do lackluster votes on me in the early stages of play evoke a readable reaction? I don't understand why you wouldn't put a little oomph behind your vote and give the reason back then if it was meant to be even semi serious.

I didn't put a little more oomph behind my vote for the same reason I didn't give my reads on every other player in the game in that post--I was too busy suckering Faraday into lynching you on Westeros. Well, there was the chance someone would go, "OMG, was that a serious vote?" I guess.

It would have been slightly more effective than zero had the thread not moved so quickly and you been online to react to it.

Monday, who are the scum on and who are the scum off Oversoul's wagon?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

CES, do you genuinely believe I'm trying to frame you/undermine your credibility/fake that I'm thinking about your alignment/etc.? Or is this just friendly advice that I should stop attacking you because people might suspect me for it?

Mostly I wanted to work in a callback to "I can't read CES for the life of me" since it contrasts so nicely with your current stance. Also: not "bad" in the sense of scummy, "bad" in the sense of bad.

But instead of dismissing it as me not knowing how you work, why don't you explain the method to your madness? Did you get a read from Shadow by refusing to explain your stances? Have you done anything whatsoever this game with a concrete goal in mind?

I'll give you one example because I'm feeling charitable. How I'm approaching Oversoul Today early on is a lot like I approached you D2 in MLP - I could've joined the wagon but that wouldn't've been particularly meaningful, so I've been ignoring the main event and trying to get some side events going, counterwagons and that sort of thing. That's why I haven't given an opinion on Oversoul; doing so would've compromised my ability to work with him on the side.

I also don't understand your point 5. Can you explain it more clearly?

I've been ignoring the Oversoulwagon; I've switched my votes a whole bunch of times; I used the phrase "Art requires sacrifice." Not only have you ignored all of these points, your analysis of my posts seemed for the most part to ignore that I was doing these things. For example, your explanation of my vote for you makes sense in isolation but take into account how many times I've switched votes and it's suddenly looking a lot less likely.

I'd assumed the motive was obvious for the vote on me that people were calling scummy--I hadn't showed my face in the thread, and you know me, so you were clearly trying to poke me into posting. I lurked early in MLP, so the vote made sense to me from your POV. But apparently, I was wrong, and you'd just rolled a die?

I saw there were 2 votes on you and I figured "Hey, why not?".

[Mina]

Preview-edit: CES, okay, I actually like that answer. Now we're getting somewhere! But do you agree that those quotes of Plum's are scummy, yes or no?

I agree on Benmage town, as well. I totally reserve the right to revoke this if he pulls another ASOIAF. That said, I continue to not agree with you or Benmage on Oversoul. Everyone seems to be all, "Well, he's playing like crap, towntell," when that's only true for newbies.

1) Why did you agree with me on Benmage being town? Isn't that a pretty common opinion at this point? It's not as though I offered a unique opinion on him, or even explained my read in great detail.

2) You reserve the right to revoke a town read on Benmage if he plays the same as he did in games in which he was town?

3) Just curious. How much experience do you define as no longer a newbie?

4) Also, do you have concrete reasons to back up your diddin-town read?

FTR, if it becomes Oversoul vs. greenknight at the end of the day, I'm voting Oversoul, because I think greenknight is a really bad wagon.

[Mina]

Wait a minute, CES. Just checking. You don't actually think I'm scummy for my doubt about you, right, just a bad player/wrong? I take it your point is, "Look at this post of mine that you didn't mention which should have given you a town read. And look, you misread this. Haha, you're so bad at this."

Out of curiosity, is there anything this game you've done here that you wouldn't have done as scum?

[Mina]

(BTW, I did think the "Art requires sacrifice" quote sounded slightly townish. I just thought it would've been easy to fake.)

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

But do you agree that those quotes of Plum's are scummy, yes or no?

Not really, no. Wishiwashiness I've never considered much of a scum tell - being conflicted about things is a very natural state to be in.

I ISOed Plum and to me it really is about the entirety of her posting.

P-edit: basically, yes.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Out of curiosity, is there anything this game you've done here that you wouldn't have done as scum?

Pretty much all of it. I'd probably be playing more conventionally/bandwagonning Oversoul more if I were scum.

[zoraster]

Out of curiosity, is there anything this game you've done here that you wouldn't have done as scum?

Pretty much all of it. I'd probably be playing more conventionally/bandwagonning Oversoul more if I were scum.

The horn of WIFOM! Anyone else think the Mina-CES interaction feels contrived?