Signs and Void (Game Over) [TM2015]

[fferyllt]

please give us as much time as you can, guys. I'm sorry our online time didn't coincide more this week, but we're doing our best to wrap up this last batch of reads.

[hitogoroshi]

VC 96 (Major Day 1, VC 58)

(7)

Espeonage:

Shadoweh, Cheetory6, ChannelDelibird, Aronis, ActionDan, Titus, DeasVail [L-3]
(4)

ChannelDelibird:

Formerfish, Bulbazak, TellTaleHeart, Espeonage
(3)

mastin2:

Gammagooey, Untrod Tripod, vezokpiraka
(1)

Gammagooey:

Oversoul
(1)

Titus:

singersigner
(1)

DeasVail:

mastin2
(0)

ActionDan:

(DeasVail)

(1)

Not Voting:

GuyinFreezer

With 18 votes in play, it takes 10 to lynch. Deadline is Saturday, April 25th, at 9PM CST.

Major Day One Deadline

(expired on 2015-04-25 20:00:00)

Bulbazak is V/LA until April 27th. GuyInFreezer is V/LA until April 27th.

One hour until deadline.

[DeasVail]

Nacho knows you've talked about the Marquis read a whole whole lot but could you talk about it again? Nacho is afraid that he could/would fake some of the self-conscious stuff he's put in thread (stuff that on the face of it Nacho found pretty town like "how do you even scumhunt?"). he's not really sure anymore if the !!! gimmick approach to the game was town-motivated or scum-motivated, and while nacho thinks he did a bunch of stuff that was good in that it feel town, he doesn't remember any of his scum/town pushes being better than marginally okay.

First, I think pushes not being better than marginally okay is pretty alignment-irrelevant. I think scum can make pushes that make you swoon and I think town can make horrible pushes that don't make any sense, because hey, pretty sure that's what I've been doing here!

I'm not going in-depth on this read right now, but the !!! gimmick is a small part of my townread all in all. I remember lots of his posts making a lot of sense as town on me and I think his behaviour around the booning was something in particular I thought was town. There are lots of things that struck me as town over the course of the game and I don't remember most of them, but his approach to me made a lot of sense after our last game together, and for a similar reason his crisis makes so much more sense as town than as scum. If I remember correctly he was starting to get a couple of scumreads, so could have suffered a decline of confidence as scum that caused his decision to replace out, but I think he has a much higher opinion than he should about my play, and even though I was a serial killer in our last game together, my reads were really quite good with my shooting two of the scum and having scumread the other before they were caught by a town PR, so being so hard townread by me, the so-called paragon would probably have been a huge boost to his confidence if he were scum here. I also think it's a lot easier to not be bothered by things like not keeping up with the game as scum, and even though I wasn't experiencing what he was at the time, I've pretty much gone through the exact same thing this last week or so, and I think the emotions that result from it are different as town and as scum and I think it'd be pretty phenomenal for him to have faked that.

[ActionDan]

please give us as much time as you can, guys. I'm sorry our online time didn't coincide more this week, but we're doing our best to wrap up this last batch of reads.

If there is something more productive you'd like me to do than iso shadoweh name it, because you just walled to come to conclusion that I support.

[fferyllt]

Espeonage, Formerfish

But.
No.
:c

Both are kind of super town. :/

PEdit: Ffery/Nacho, I don't have the grip on the game right now to have a confident read here and I essentially don't have a case that's not OMGUS-ish, but what did catch my eye was the way his read on me changed. My position here has been quite interesting in that I've gone from super-townread to pretty common scumread all in the space of one 'day'. People like you and Mastin obviously have reasons for it, but my slide down Gamma's reads list despite his contribution to the townread-consensus on me and being encouraged by my suspicion of Bulba has me suspicious that it's a result of the decline in my standing rather than the other way around. My plan is definitely to put more thought into this read before it actually matters though.

And there's no need for Nacho to apologise. I have things to do myself and I have the time for this to take a bit longer.

He called you town beyond town in the early game when you were posting a lot. After you went inactive, he really didn't have any significant interactions with you for about 10 days. In that time he formed a pretty strong scumread on singer, and formed strong townreads elsewhere. he helped lynch someone. It doesn't seem unreasonable at all for his read on you to degenerate like that over a long period of time and a lot of game events. why do you feel like his read shouldn't have degerated? Do you think he specifically should have found reasons in your recent posts to townread you even though nacho hasn't?

[fferyllt]

please give us as much time as you can, guys. I'm sorry our online time didn't coincide more this week, but we're doing our best to wrap up this last batch of reads.

If there is something more productive you'd like me to do than iso shadoweh name it, because you just walled to come to conclusion that I support.

I think he wanted some external and blind confirmation that it makes sense.

[Aronis]

55 minutes. Could people please vote espeonage?

[DeasVail]

He called you town beyond town in the early game when you were posting a lot. After you went inactive, he really didn't have any significant interactions with you for about 10 days. In that time he formed a pretty strong scumread on singer, and formed strong townreads elsewhere. he helped lynch someone. It doesn't seem unreasonable at all for his read on you to degenerate like that over a long period of time and a lot of game events. why do you feel like his read shouldn't have degerated? Do you think he specifically should have found reasons in your recent posts to townread you even though nacho hasn't?

I wouldn't have expected him to find reasons to townread me, but to call someone town beyond town takes something pretty strong imo and unless one's going to argue that my decline in activity is alignment-relevant, it seems odd that his opinion of me would have become so vapid.

[Untrod Tripod]

we're doing espe now?

jfc guys

vote Espeonage

[fferyllt]

give I posted this earlier in the game

Spoiler:

TTH! If you want me to consider Marquis as scum you're going to have to give me a whole lot more than you're currently giving.

@Cheetory,

Bulbazak is town because of the fluidity but logical consistency of his opinions. People are consistently inconsistent. I feel that people jumped on the first thing they disagreed with as scummy, rather than actually seeing what was actually scummy. My team told me to be hesitant on declaring people were scum so when I saw the massive pile up on Bulba for reasons I could not even divine much less understand, I figured the push was on town rather than on scum. I know occasionally I am wrong. Given those voices on Bulba's slot have suddenly gone quiet today when it's actually time to lynch Bulba, I can conclude either I was right or scum were setting up massive distancing for towncred. I'm more inclined to believe the former.

P-edit... well I thought no one was make a bulba is scum push...

First, I think that being inconsistent is actually one of the easiest things for scum to do, and second, someone being busy shouldn't have any impact on the alignment of who they're scumreading?

Singer, why the townread on ActionDan?

Espe, I gave you the opportunity to convert me to the light and implant the grand idea of Tammy-scum into my mind, but you didn't take the opportunity.

Cops might also check DV.

Um, they better not waste their time doing that. Also the strength of my vezok townread has doubled, and he was pretty strong town before...

holy shit guys

holy shit we have nothing to go on

can we just lynch someone bad and move on

Posts like these make it seem like you care about the game, but your actions make it seem like you don't! Why?

If true, explain why I would pick a fight with a universal townread as scum, since that seems pretty counterintuitive to me.

People are usually pretty quick to dismiss a fight as townvtown. Picking a fight with me if you're town seems more counterintuitive honestly.

(although being sheeped by Vezok is unnerving me a bit).

Why? Vezok has just become more and more town?

this is also me admitting my original reasons were probably really dumb aside from the sheeping itself but i still refuse to believe town!anti swaps out of the game while continuing to keep up with it enough to relay a scumread on me based on my scumread and concern over your slot for reasons that he knows exist and are mostly true. it's even more bullshit bullshit bullshit.

This has crossed my mind as well, but I still think not lynching TTH is the way to go today (will explain later).

Bulba, why is Shadow conf town?

Nacho agrees that a 70-30 time split between the two lynches sounds better than 50-50.

I say let's lynch when we feel like it! (Preferably not too late though, but I trust people to be at least sort of sensible)

--

Ok finally caught up!

Ffery/Tammy/Respective Teams: I would very much like your thoughts on Mastin. I'm scumreading her, but I feel more caution there than I would with someone else.

Regarding TTH:

I'm just as skeptical as any of you about her alignment, but I feel there are good reasons for keeping her around. First, she's made this super bold claim about being confirmed minor day two. Now do I actually think this is going to happen? No, I think it's probably scum trying to bide time, but if scum really wants to be lynched day two instead of day one then we may as well let them. She might just be town! And if it turns out that this was all some big ruse to avoid being lynched then there's no way I'm letting her get away with that because I've tried it as scum before and didn't get away with it, so it's not allowed to work for anyone else!

Secondly, if TTH is scum (which I think is reasonably likely), now we get to imagine scum agonizing over whether or not to kill me as we fall asleep tonight (or do other secret stuff). Do they kill me and potentially reveal TTH's alignment??? Or do they leave me alive in the hope that I'll be distracted from her telltale heart??? I don't know, maybe this isn't as cool as I think it is but I sort of love imagining scum squirm deep down (I'm really quite terrible).

I took longer to catch up than I anticipated and I still have to decide who I want to lynch (answers to my questions would be quite nice), but I'm thinking my pool is currently:

[ActionDan, Aronis, Bulbazak, GiF, Mastin2, Shadoweh]

I'll hopefully narrow this down some more. I've become less sure of my Bulbazak read lately, but there's nothing that would really stop me from lynching him.

I'm going to stop worrying about you. I'm going to look back at this post every time I start worrying again.

<3

I don't find it strange that gamma's read of you has gone vapid.

[DeasVail]

I don't like relating everything to myself, but if I think someone's obviously town early-game and then they become less involved with the game-state, I won't be ok with lynching them unless I have new reason to actually think my read was wrong. This is what I expect has happened with you, but Gamma's post gave the opposite impression which is why I think it may be reactive to the gamestate.

[fferyllt]

He called you town beyond town in the early game when you were posting a lot. After you went inactive, he really didn't have any significant interactions with you for about 10 days. In that time he formed a pretty strong scumread on singer, and formed strong townreads elsewhere. he helped lynch someone. It doesn't seem unreasonable at all for his read on you to degenerate like that over a long period of time and a lot of game events. why do you feel like his read shouldn't have degerated? Do you think he specifically should have found reasons in your recent posts to townread you even though nacho hasn't?

I wouldn't have expected him to find reasons to townread me, but to call someone town beyond town takes something pretty strong imo and unless one's going to argue that my decline in activity is alignment-relevant, it seems odd that his opinion of me would have become so vapid.

gamma's new reason for finding you scum now was your scumlist consisting of Bulba and a pile of lurkers.

[DeasVail]

He called you town beyond town in the early game when you were posting a lot. After you went inactive, he really didn't have any significant interactions with you for about 10 days. In that time he formed a pretty strong scumread on singer, and formed strong townreads elsewhere. he helped lynch someone. It doesn't seem unreasonable at all for his read on you to degenerate like that over a long period of time and a lot of game events. why do you feel like his read shouldn't have degerated? Do you think he specifically should have found reasons in your recent posts to townread you even though nacho hasn't?

I wouldn't have expected him to find reasons to townread me, but to call someone town beyond town takes something pretty strong imo and unless one's going to argue that my decline in activity is alignment-relevant, it seems odd that his opinion of me would have become so vapid.

gamma's new reason for finding you scum now was your scumlist consisting of Bulba and a pile of lurkers.

I had forgotten about that and I will be going over this read again.

[mastin2]

Espeonage

1) Why is he a townread?
2) Why aren't you doing anything to stop his lynch? yeah, CDB is claimed PR and you don't want to lynch him and we're really close to deadline, but it seems like one of your top 5/6 townreads getting run up would cause some sort of reaction?

(Because DV's scum.)

[DeasVail]

Haha, thanks for your contribution Mastin.

[DeasVail]

And I'm not being sarcastic or anything, I'm entirely serious. No post has made me smile that much in a while.

[DeasVail]

(And yes, I will charm everyone into townreading me, watch it happen)

[fferyllt]

Dan's being vouched for by Shadoweh. We like his reactions, Nacho thinks he's probably town even though he's not as confident in Dan-town as in Shadoweh town.

Marquis comes off town in the Marquis-Deas interaction. Nacho noticed that Marquis reached out and sort of attached himself to Deas earl and he doesn't think that Marquis does that as scum or that the two of them do it as scum-scum. he felt that Marquis's side of the interactions felt very very honest while DV's didn't exactly excite and come off town to the same xtent. Nacho doesn't like DV's reads at this point in time. the sudden townread on Espeonage when he didn't have that townread feels fishy as all hell on it's own without any of the other things that ping.

[mastin2]

Also, pie delivers condolences to ffery for getting stuck in this town.
(pie made a Tales parallel, which I quite agree with.)

[ActionDan]

please give us as much time as you can, guys. I'm sorry our online time didn't coincide more this week, but we're doing our best to wrap up this last batch of reads.

If there is something more productive you'd like me to do than iso shadoweh name it, because you just walled to come to conclusion that I support.

I think he wanted some external and blind confirmation that it makes sense.

Ok!

Nacho's shadoweh read.

he doesn't understand the scum-purpose of Shadoweh's beginning to sort-of push on Tammy in 207. Scum-Shadoweh knows that she is probably expected to townread Tammy and knows that implying Tammy is scum is going to bring Tammy's ire in her direction. Scum-Shadoweh also wouldn't going get any towncred from a push at all if she immediately backs off. Which she did.

Not a good town tell for her

Her push on singer actually looks like a decent and natural response to defend a townread in that way, Titus is a strange player to for shadoweh to buddy up to because even when Titus was being mostly townread she didn't have a large amount of sway. Nacho very much liked the #3 paragraph of 1903, especially the bit about "you won't be lynching me today".

in contrast, this is spot on!

This post by Shadoweh also feels quite town. It's also a good point: Nacho feels like CDB's worst scumread was Shadoweh because it was formed for apparently no reason. Nacho doesn't think scum would be likely to raise hell with someone because they forgot to include them in a scumlist.

this is good/fine

Shadoweh's apology to Espy in 2688 seems pretty solid and town.

and the rest of that post is good too, better than the apology which by itself isn't that revealing

Oh. You picked one of my only friends playing left. I wish I could disagree that big post felt weird.

Nacho didn't see this post before now, but holy shit it reads so town.

First sentence is town, anyway. The 2nd would have made me wary of BETRAYAL

Going to a STRONG townread when Dan started reacting feels nice and in line with our own thoughts. so do most of the interactions with Dan in general.

If only everone could, but yes, it's very good

Nacho kinda started this reread with the mindset that maybe he was only townreading Shadoweh because he likes Shadoweh as a person but going through her posts he now feels pretty strongly about her being town. he's come away with a good read on her instead of one of those "oh I think she's town here are reasons she's town" conf-bias reads. NACHO BELIEVES!

/claps

there you go.

Cant do anything else as I might mala and I have to plan for that

[ActionDan]

Might meet

[DeasVail]

the sudden townread on Espeonage

?

[DeasVail]

If this is why you think I'm scum then that would explain a lot!

[fferyllt]

Nacho has some pretty serious doubts about Bulbazak. BUT! he should be dead eventually thanks to scum knowing his sign and all, so bubla is liable to sort out naturally by night kill. If he's still alive by minor day 4 or so, lynch the hell out of him. If needed, the slot could be very very readable via mollie's involvement, so reaching out to her is an awesome way to read this slot and propel it to strong town if it deserves to be strong town.

[Titus]

Espy at L minus 2. Thirty minutes.