Tales of You (Endgame)

[CarbonFiber]

I can't believe I am saying but I am the one that's lost now amongst the spam.

Rancid, what is your real claim? It seems like you retracted hated miller gladiator and claimed gladiator Mason with Mastin but that seems to be a gambit as well. Can you clear that up?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I am not arrogantly arguing that my reads are better.

Coulda fooled me.

Because your read on me hasn't changed the whole game, and has been on shaky-at-best reasoning. (You scumread me for scumreading you...when you later admitted to ffery that your entrance was not a good one into the game. Why is me scumreading you for it initially different than ffery not townreading you for what you yourself said was not a good entrance?)

Me, BRO, Desp, Pieguyn all agree that Rancid is town and that's why I think you should maybe reconsider that Nati was specifically appealing to you as opposed to any of the rest of us. Even if you are so confident, at least don't take his word that MastinSSK is town and lynch Mastin.

You have all these people calling me town. All these people who have an intimate game history with me. zMuffinman, in particular. (Heck, now that it's over, I can mention Paranoia Mafia. I replaced in as the mafia don N1, basically the only scumbag with a kill. Without reading a single word of the game, I blindly nightkilled zMuffinman,

specifically because I was afraid he'd catch me

.) And in spite of their consistent feedback telling you you're wrong...

...You've maintained that confidence throughout the entirety of the game, on that shaky reasoning, that somehow, all these players who know me well have somehow been masterfully fooled by me all of a sudden yet mystically caught by you. So, F-16. You say you're not arrogantly arguing your reads are better. But with you being town? That's

exactly

what you're actually doing.

A couple of problems with this:

1) I am arguing that Muffin is scum with you.

2) BRO and AP caught you in Anything Goes even while Kuribo and DGB were oblivious to it. I am not talking about player skill, I am talking about you tailoring your game to appeal to specific players. If I am a player you intend to mislynch, you haven't tailored your play to me. On the other hand, you'd want to make absolutely sure that Nacho for instance is townreading you. I also think you had BRO and Desp down as a mislynch which is why they caught you as did the heads of the Fox and the Hound.

So, me, Pieguyn, BRO, Desp, all hardcore scumreading you (probably Beli as well) and I place a lot of weight in that.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Oh, and how could I forget obvtown Katsuki who hydra'd with you in that mega scum win is also scumreading you.

[CarbonFiber]

Also, tunneling on moderately difficult lynches while "compromise lynching" easy lynches like PereV is straight out of scum-Mastin playbook.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

Tammy, what's up with the vote/unvote thing?

[CarbonFiber]

Ceph, not sure where you are getting at. What's the reason behind your read switch?

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

I'm about ready to say fuck it and yolo Beli's mastin read.

Is this still a thing? I'm voting Rancid right now but if you are willing to go for Mastin, I'll switch over. Tl;dr, I think they are both scum but will settle for the lynch that is more achievable and that at least one of your heads is fully behind as opposed to continuing pushing Rancid with you pushing a compromise wagon.

As for Rancid and I agreeing, I was really, really transparent with my thought process over the course of the game. I have 11 very strong townreads. Rancid isn't going to push AP, Mastin is specifically trying to get out of lynching AP like I predicted all along.

~ F-16

[CarbonFiber]

And if Mastin/Rancid is the leading wagon?

[CarbonFiber]

Yet I feel this is what some people lack. Particularly, I'm eyeing JSU and CF. Multiple times, I have seen me being put as near-scum/scum in their eyes; essentially an accusation. Yet in their accusations, no reasoning was provided at all! How am I suppose to take you guys seriously if you don't provide a reasoning? How am I suppose to understand you? Is it because "he's scum so let's not talk to him for now"? Know this, eventually you will form a proper case against me if your accusations hold. I'll be ready, and if you don't come at me genuinely as town members, then I will know something's up and I will stomp you to the ground, exposing you for who you really are. In no way am I threatening or discouraging your case on me; this is merely a reminder as you ponder over night what to do about your accusations on me. And I will be honest in my defenses; whether that convinces you two of my alignment is all up in the air.

I think you misunderstood my reads. I have 11 strong townreads and 3 scumreads. That's 14 out of the 16 players (besides myself). I am basically null on you and LordB at this point.

[CarbonFiber]

Rancid's whole "

lynch us

" + "

we'll spend an obscene amount of effort paraphrasing our hydra QT

" is bullshit. They obviously don't want to be lynched which is why they are paraphrasing their hydra QT so the "lynch us" is just there for sympathy points.

[CarbonFiber]

Different heads of course but Muffin could just have let Nati do the paraphrasing without going "

I would actually like to be lynched.

"

[CarbonFiber]

As for the lack of suspects, I am feeling surprisingly confident on where the scumteam is: MastinSSK, Rancid, AP, and one of {Clyton, LordB, and maybe Yggrdra Union but I don't think so}.

Of this group, I'd vote mastin (on the basis of GiF/Pie's read mostly) or LordB. I don't think rancid is scum. I'm totally perplexed by muffin's recent posts, but I don't think either of them would behave like this as scum. Clyton's posts worry me.

p-edit hmm.

I'd go with Mastin as well. It is as I expected. Scum are doing everything they can to drive a compromise wagon through. I'll get back to this in a bit. Bork asked me in the neighborhood why I was so convinced PV was town and I am working on building a case.

[CarbonFiber]

So I'm working under the assumption of an all-town Abyss right now, believe it or not. I'm trying to figure out what that means.

That f16 is mocking you in his scum qt as he shoves really shitty mislynches on bad connection cases.

^ This is a scumpost.

[CarbonFiber]

How does anyone not realize that AP and Mastin have jumped into this thread spamming and howling for ANY lynch outside of them and Rancid.

Rancid, AP, and Mastin are scum. This is how scum lynches generally go. They aren't easy because scum will put up a fight.

So, no. We're aboslutely not lynching a lurker. I'll compromise any one of the three though.

[CarbonFiber]

Unvote

I'm at work and can't swap accounts but I'm feeling masochistic enough to force the NL and 1v1 tomorrow. So please count this Cabd.

F-16, if you really think both my scumbuddies hard defend me day one like this, Lol. Lolololol. If you did any research on me at all, you'd know I'm the goddamn king of bussing. Moreover, AP and mastin are both good enough players to know when to hold and when to fold. And were waaaay beyond the point of folding. I really don't give a fuck if you think I'm a um, but to build such a shit case is, like, I have actually no words.

But it is not beyond the point of folding. If they can derail your lynch today and get a lurker lynched, and then kill the best townies or the ones with most accurate reads, mislynch the others with the help of townies with wrong reads, you can maneuver yourself into a much stronger position.

On the other hand, if you get lynched, and Pie, BRO, Desp, and I all have our reads validated, it is going to be SO much harder for Mastin to avoid us all tunneling him then because for one, your scumflip would basically confirm people as town, and you would be down a member.

Also, your most recent read on me seems to be that I am town so I am not sure where you are going with the 1v1.

[CarbonFiber]

I mean derailing your lynch makes much, much more optimal sense as scum.

I already addressed the whole "why are good players reading me as town" thing. For one, none of me, Pie, BRO, Desp, or Ceph/DV, or Tammy? all of who are good players are reading you as town.

I think Muffin and Mastin are scum together so their mutual townreads don't matter. Other good players may be reading you as town if you tailor your play towards them because they are such a massive threat.

[CarbonFiber]

If PV's going to be a mislynch, vote RBD or Mastin instead. Even on the miniscule chance that he is town, that'll help several of us recalibrate our reads.

[CarbonFiber]

Not sure what the hesitance is Tammy. You've voted to lynch people with much less certainty before.

[CarbonFiber]

Not sure what the hesitance is Tammy. You've voted to lynch people with much less certainty before.

Stop it.

Your posting towards me and me trying to figure this out starting last night feels like manipulation, not like you're interested in where I'm coming from or what I'm trying to figure out.

It is not uncommon for me to ask specific people to vote for my scumreads.

I think my problem this game is that I figured things out at a faster pace than others possibly because I spent too much time reading it. In general, if we figure things out together at the same pace, the discussion would be more productive. But here I feel like I already figured it out and am waiting for you to do it which means I am pushing my solidified reads while you are trying to solidify them and that created more of a clash and impatience from my end. I'll to reign it down and I want to get on the same page as you. What are your thoughts so far about the latest developments of the game.

[CarbonFiber]

Not sure what the hesitance is Tammy. You've voted to lynch people with much less certainty before.

Stop it.

Your posting towards me and me trying to figure this out starting last night feels like manipulation, not like you're interested in where I'm coming from or what I'm trying to figure out.

It is not uncommon for me to ask specific people to vote for my scumreads.

I think my problem this game is that I figured things out at a faster pace than others possibly because I spent too much time reading it. In general, if we figure things out together at the same pace, the discussion would be more productive. But here I feel like I already figured it out and am waiting for you to do it which means I am pushing my solidified reads while you are trying to solidify them and that created more of a clash and impatience from my end. I'll to reign it down and I want to get on the same page as you. What are your thoughts so far about the latest developments of the game.

Also, I obviously was personally involved with the whole cc'ing miller thing so was more certain than someone watching from the outside. I don't know how it looks like from your viewpoint so I want to see where you are coming from.

[CarbonFiber]

RBD has basically devolved into personal attacks at this point.

[CarbonFiber]

What the fuck, Nacho?

[CarbonFiber]

Let's lynch AP.

[CarbonFiber]

What the fuck, Nacho?

Do you understand why I'm so frustrated at the moment?
Because if not, take a step back from the game and please reread again.

I don't. If I was, I wouldn't have asked. I am really trying to understand why the only people on the same page as me are Pieguyn and BRO and Desp and not you or Tammy who are incredibly easy to be on the same page with. If I made a mistake, I'd rather you just bring it up so I can play better. I am not sure why me asking for votes on a wagon feels like "manipulation" for one.

[CarbonFiber]

What the fuck, Nacho?

Do you understand why I'm so frustrated at the moment?
Because if not, take a step back from the game and please reread again.

I don't. If I was, I wouldn't have asked. I am really trying to understand why the only people on the same page as me are Pieguyn and BRO and Desp and not you or Tammy who are incredibly easy to be on the same page with. If I made a mistake, I'd rather you just bring it up so I can play better. I am not sure why me asking for votes on a wagon feels like "manipulation" for one.

I havent accused you of being manipulative at all.
Reconcile scum-Muffin with the recent meltdown.

And Muffin and Nati are basically posting personal insults while I am trying to solve the game. I am not sure why you are directing your frustration at me rather than at them.

[CarbonFiber]

You're not asking me to vote for your scum reads though, and you're not trying to get to the bottom of why I might be hesitant though I'm pretty sure I said why yesterday. You got after me for voting and unvoting last night, though anyone who's ever played with me before should be able to follow that, and then you're saying you don't understand my hesitancy and I've voted being less certain before. Sure, I have but that doesn't really have much bearing on right now.

I am much more okay to vote somewhere I don't feel great about when there is some semblance of town cohesion or direction. There is none here, at all. This game has fractured into factions who are just yelling and fist pumping they're right and right now I can't tell if it's a bunch of town silently being egged on by scum who are benefitting or if it's scum yelling the loudest. This game doesn't make any gorram sense to me right now, and I can't figure out who I'll be helping with m vote.

I don't think you have the game figured out as solidly as you think you do because it doesn't feel like the game makes sense that way.

Okay. My question about hesitancy was more of why you were trying to be absolutely certain before placing a vote as opposed to going with someone who has a decent chance of being scum. For instance, I remembered in PYP, you voted for PowerOfDeath even though you thought that you weren't sure and even though you actually thought there was a pretty good chance that he was town. Now, it seems like you need to be absolutely certain beyond 100% doubt that RBD is scum and if you have even the slightest doubt that they may be town, you'd default to not voting them or voting an unnamed counterwagon even though the same principle should apply to everyone you are voting for (i.e. you can't be absolutely certain PV is scum either, but you are not going to use that standard before you vote him.

I think it should be fairly obvious to you that I am town and Pieguyn is town even if nothing else. You'd obviously be helping us push our wagon. There is a good chance RBD is scum, that AP is scum, and that Mastin is scum. Because you can't be certain isn't a reason to vote a lurker because you can't be certain about that lurker being scum as well. RBD is no more an asset to the game than PV. Their primary contribution to the game has been yelling, insulting, and spamming and burying the thread.

[CarbonFiber]

I think both BRO and Desp are really, really incredibly town.

[CarbonFiber]

Nacho, how do you seriously not see BRO town here? You've read the neighborhood QT and read everything in the game and the way he is going about pushing lynches is really, really obviously town because this isn't the way scum-BRO does it.

[CarbonFiber]

Nacho, how do you seriously not see BRO town here? You've read the neighborhood QT and read everything in the game and the way he is going about pushing lynches is really, really obviously town because this isn't the way scum-BRO does it.

You're ignoring me.

FINE. I'll
UNVOTE:
and you can be happy for derailing a scum lynch even after a bunch of people put so much effort into making it happen just like you derailed the muffin lynch in Xenosaga.

I'm pretty sure people are just going to say "lol, you weren't convincing, we were wrong, it happens" and some such shit.

[CarbonFiber]

Vote: PeregrineV

YOU ARE VOTING ANOTHER TOWNIE NOW AND HERE'S WHY

Okay, so in the first paragraph, let's look at it from a bird's eye view of the wagon on him and how other people interacted with him. In the next one, look at PV's actual posts and play itself.

PV shows a lot of VI behavior that can be considered scummy by town. He is going to be a compromise lynch. Always has been. Just because PV wasn't wagoned early doesn't mean that he isn't the easiest lynch to push. Nearly everyone has some sort of concerns about PV basically making him the default lynch for the day. If a player is unable to push the wagon they want, they are likely to change their vote to PV. I think that scum are tiptoeing around voting him not because they don't want to bus him but because they want the suspicion to build up and for town to start wondering why no one is voting the universal scumread. Contrast with attacking an easy target directly and being called out for it. Notice AngryPidgeon's push on PV. After all the arguments with Mastin and Kagura, he starts asking around for who he will compromise on. Because neither Mastin nor Kagura are easy targets that will be lynched, yet good to make a ton of noise with, citing bullshit, nitpicky, semantic arguments, and when the time comes to settle on a lynch, a low-activity player like PV is perfect. The current gamestate with a PV wagon and everyone happily defaulting to it wouldn't be the gamestate if Pidgeon had decided to attack PV directly.

Onto PV's actual posts. While he flew under the radar, he has been far from useless this game. He's made no less than 86 posts, more than quite a few other players. He provides an initial reads list in Post 1035 that is unconventional and goes against the grain of popular opinion. While some of his reads are harder to follow than others, I see them coming far more likely from an uninformed town POV than something scum would fake to fit in. I like his questioning of the Cupcake read in Post 1039 because it is something that BRO never explained in detail in the thread. His response to pressure in Post 1069 was natural and easygoing and he never seemed overly bothered by Breakfast pushing him. Neither was he worried about Kagura and his response in Post 1589 is calm, level-headed and inquisitive. He also presses AngryPidgeon for responses to his questions and follows up on anything that was unanswered as in Post 1770 showing that he was scanning the thread very closely. Healso follows up on his question to Kagura in Post 1770 showing a close attention to detail and it shows that he is not just bullshitting random questions but meticulously following up on everything he is doing. He openly invites Titan to engage and question him in Post 1773 unafraid of being grilled. I doubt scum-PV would asked to be put under the spotlight but it makes sense from town who are good at scumhunting based off of how other people question them.

His questioning of MastinSSK in Post 1780 picks up on a lot of things that are vague and unexplained. Mastin regardless of affiliation has a tendency to be vague and PV's determination to get to the bottom of it as opposed to skim through betrays his underlying town motivation. PV saying that Mastin and I could be scum together in Post 1788 is such a rabbit hole but very, very reminiscent of the kind of tinfoil theories that are so much more likely to come from paranoid town. Him accurately pointing out that the usefulness of my argument is limited shows a very keen grasp of the gamestate. My explanation for town-DV came at a point when the wagon was dying a little but I posted it anyways because I was working on it for a while, but PV picked up on the timing of it to use it for further analysis. His Post 1800 is an absolute classic. Did you see how well he tracked down my read on Cupcake to show where I was making leaps and explained nothing? It is because of the discussions in this neighborhood that refined my Cupcake read. I didn't have a perfect trajectory for it in thread. This is the kind of incredibly potentially alignment-revealing things that PV is picking up. He isn't posting a ton of words in the thread but look at the detail of his thoughts and they could only come if he is putting a LOT of behind-the-scenes work to capture the trail of how I am reading Cupcake. I've stopped here for his ISO read because you wanted it ASAP but continue reading his ISO beyond this post and you'll see too that the level of detail, and how attentively he is reading the thread makes so much sense from town even if he is not the best with words and looks "scummy" and lurkish and useless because he really isn't.

Finally add in that Rancid has interacted with far more slots in the game than PV has and a lot of players have stronger opinions about Rancid's alignment than they do PV's (for instance, barely anyone besides me and Beli has called PV town) and the fact that they are constantly, constantly spewing insults, complaining and burying the thread with such pointless arguments that it makes it hard to read, I think they are a better lynch than PV who is giving it the best shot he can and whose underlying town motivations are apparent upon looking closely. PV lynch is bad even as a utility lynch because we don't get anything out of it whereas a Rancid townflip potentially clears Mastin with their scumflip clearing several players in the game.

[CarbonFiber]

F-16, you're still ignoring me.

WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU WANT ME TO RESPOND TO?

[CarbonFiber]

Vote: PeregrineV

YOU ARE VOTING ANOTHER TOWNIE NOW AND HERE'S WHY

I have no intention of reading the wall that follows this because I know I won't agree with it

But I'm going to give you one last chance before I give up on ever trying to play in a game with you again

And I do not care if you already don't want to play with me (that would make me extremely happy, actually) and I do not care if you think there is no reason to think this but

I am town. I have very good reason to think I'm right about Mastin, if he is scum here, then I dunno, I'll just quit playing mafia for a while, I had every intention of taking a break after my current games are finished and being this wrong about something I'm so confident I'm right about will just give me more reason to want to take a break.

For a moment, consider that I'm town and that Mastin is also town. If you think PV is town, then who is scum?

Okay, I was probably considering that I was wrong given a few other things about the gamestate.

I think the scum is probably AP. You and Mastin going off on him the minute he entered the game and he responded with two townreads on both of you felt weird. Mastin's battle with him could be coming from town/scum.

His push on Bork was crap. A whole bunch of nitpicky arguments that make zero sense.

Clyton "sacrificing" you guys smells like BS if you are town. So, he's probably another scum.

[CarbonFiber]

Can we lynch AP?

[CarbonFiber]

That is not discrediting.

yes it is

he is referring to F-16 as some sort of negative utility for town by spinning what F-16 would do next as a negative action that needs to be avoided

by doing so he is devaluing F-16's opinions since ppl will be less inclined to pay attention to them. hence, discrediting

-Y

No, it's not and using this type of argument doesn't convince anyone. I've, as town, made a similar statement. He could just as easily be concerned about what is likely to happen tomorrow as he could be scum trying to setup a narrative.

How the fuck do you see what's happening here Tammy?

It is not just the fact that he is saying "X is scum if Y flips town." It is the manipulative way that he is going about it trying to get other people to get mad at me.

[CarbonFiber]

unvote

What's going on?

This is the last post I'm making today. I'm calmed myself down enough to do this, but I can't stay in this game while it's like this. Desp might come in if he wants to.

I have issues with anxiety. Like, severe issues. I also have major issues with failure, especially that, for most of my life, I've been pretty to very successful in most things I've done.

It wasn't until college, when the rules changed pretty suddenly about what "success" meant, that I started falling flat on my face.

I can get into more detail about it with you on Skype later (I'm not posting this shit in a mafia game), but starting about 2 years ago, I started having issues with anxiety because of what I perceived to be a series of failures on my part. This got progressive worse through about a year ago, where I started getting panic attacks that were debilitating to the point that I couldn't even do basic school work.

I saw a therapist through last summer, and he helped me deal with a lot of that shit.

This game has caused me a lot of stress. RBD's been obvscum all game. it's not just the claim. It's been their entire approach to the game. From how they've been moving in lockstep with mastin, how they've trolled, how they've aggressively adhommed me and F-16 to hell and back (I've requested Cabd to warn them multiple times via Skype), and how they've dealt with the claim. All of it. It's beyond obvious to me, and it's been like running my cock through a meat grinder trying to get everyone else to see the same thing I'm seeing.

mastin's participation and constant emotional manipulation/borderline abuse towards things she knows make me tick and AP being strangely disconnected from me haven't helped, either.

Seeing the last few pages, seeing that this is going to be another Anything Goes where I'm fucking right but I'm basically losing to a popularity contest and a load of bullshit b/c I up certain aspects of my personality when I argue sent me into a major anxiety attack. I had to leave a social event (where I was reading from my phone) to try to get something down, but as I was posting, I was losing my ability to type. I told Cabd to put me V/LA through the rest of the day, and I've collected myself a bit, but my heart rate is still above what it is when I lift.

Nacho saying I caused this carnival of lunacy when I've been the one trying to cut through it is a load of bullshit.

You using a limited sample of my games to try to figure out what I'm doing here, when I'm an incredibly emotionally and gut driven player is bullshit.

Everything RBD/mastin has posted in thread about the gamestate is bullshit.

F-16 and GiF/Pie feel like my only allies in this game. They're the only ones I've been able to connect with all game. It feels like everyone else is ganging up on me, and even if they're not calling me names outright, they're implicitly siding with muffin calling me mentally retarded by not calling him out on it and calling him town for it.

Everyone in this game is implicit in mastin's immense emotional harassment of me. The shit she's pulled on me in this game, if we were dating IRL, would constitute emotional abuse. it's part of the game, but it's stressful to deal with.

I get that I put on the facade that I'm a badass, but I'm a very protective person. I'm a huge softy, and I feel bad trying to lynch people I'm close to.

Maybe it's fucked with my read on AP.

It's probably why I can't read penguin for shit.

And I'm alone in my room, almost in tears for the first time in about a year because I can't deal with this shit anymore.

I'm out. If you lynch me, you're lynching a more valuable role than a gladiator, especially one that belongs to scum.

I agree with most of this and RBD's and Mastin's emomtional manipulation has been beyond obvious this game and I am not sure why no one else is seeing it.

[CarbonFiber]

Vote: orcinus

Why Orcinus?

[CarbonFiber]

Vote: orcinus

Why Orcinus?

I don't like his interactions with ffery and he's not obvious town and all I care about getting out of this day is not lynching obvious town.

If not Rancid, then let's lynch Mastin or AP.

[CarbonFiber]

Vote: orcinus

Why Orcinus?

I don't like his interactions with ffery and he's not obvious town and all I care about getting out of this day is not lynching obvious town.

If not Rancid, then let's lynch Mastin or AP.

I won't lynch Mastin. I will lynch AP.

Okay, let's lynch AP then.

[CarbonFiber]

Will you please stop getting after me? I took a break from mafia this week for a reason, and I'm trying to look at things objectively here.

What are your thoughts about AP?

[CarbonFiber]

AP is a good lynch. Let's make it happen. I need to head out but will be back in a little bit.

[CarbonFiber]

Oh, my god Nacho, they are not.

But let's lynch AP anyways.

[CarbonFiber]

I'm fine wtith any lynch in {mastin, AP, RBD}

I won't tolerate any other lynch

ijou desu

-Y

THIS

[CarbonFiber]

Why are you so sure Orc will flip scum?

[CarbonFiber]

Will you vote Pidgeon with me, Tammy?

[CarbonFiber]

AP

If you are a town cop, submit me, mastin and whoever you want to investigate

Simplest solution

Look, that's massively suboptimal since my best guess is that you, Mastin and AP are scum together. So, let's say I'm wrong and you are all town. You clearing each other isn't actually that much help.

[CarbonFiber]

VOTE: orcinus

it feels somewhat wrong though

I love you.

I just wanted to write an irritated response to this but I'll wait.

[CarbonFiber]

mastin's reaction to BRO was

100% a scum reaction

. town actually gives a shit about the other players in the game. he does not.

because he is deliberately trying to induce apathy and feelings of despair in town.

he's scum who doesn't know how to react to it going to o far, so he jsut ignores it and hopes he can just skate by.

you can all listen to me and lynch obvscum today, or you can just watch it all fly by. your call

I'll just keep repeating this till you all listen to me kthx

-Y

If you vote orcinus today, I will listen to you tomorrow.

Why don't I get this same offer?

[CarbonFiber]

Don't end the day yet please. I have something I wanted to ask Tammy.

Nacho, I'll respond to all your posts in the neighborhood.

[CarbonFiber]

Okay, just writing this out before I head out. I'll be back in an hour or so definitely before deadline so don't lynch anyone. Nacho, there's something I want to talk to you about but I can always do it in the neighborhood since deadline is imminent. Or I'll just do it once I get back.

Tammy, I am not

getting

this game and I think it is my fault but I am not sure where I am going wrong. It would help if you explain it or point out where I am going about it the wrong way so I can use that to approach the game better in the following days. I don't want to make this game unfun for anyone and I am sorry for doing that so far. There are a whole bunch of things that I think I am missing the subtexts for and not quite understanding why I am unable to make progress in this game. I don't think I have it all figured out quicker than anyone else, I was just overconfident in my scumreads. I'd do better if someone can actually explain what the issue is.

Here is the stuff I didn't really understand. You voted Orc even though you feel bad about it just when Nacho told you to vote Orc without really asking what your thoughts about him were but never voted RBD even when I said basically the same thing. That is, you didn't agonize over voting him or spend a lot of time trying to figure it out, you almost just voted on a whim. Maybe it is because I approached it in the wrong way. I know you have your reasons for doing that, I just feel like I am playing sub-optimally because I am pushing forward without really understanding what those reasons are and how to present that reasoning. I am sure there is a whole lot of things that are different for both players, but I want to understand what those are so I don't head off on the wrong track without realizing the differences. I can take a guess that one reason is that Orc was inactive and RBD were here and active although I am not aware of any others.

The other thing is that we were pretty much on the same page in this game even a couple days ago and were doing fine even to the point that you were the only one besides Desp who actually considered the possibility that Mastin and AP were bussing which is a really unconventional theory. But I think now, we are viewing the game differently and I'm not sure why. I think I missed a few crucial deductions that changed the gamestate from your POV but not mine. I'd like to know why and I think there is a good chance I can get back on the same page as you and others. Can you explain where I am going wrong (with the entire last few pages)?

[CarbonFiber]

mastin's reaction to BRO was

100% a scum reaction

. town actually gives a shit about the other players in the game. he does not.

because he is deliberately trying to induce apathy and feelings of despair in town.

he's scum who doesn't know how to react to it going to o far, so he jsut ignores it and hopes he can just skate by.

you can all listen to me and lynch obvscum today, or you can just watch it all fly by. your call

I'll just keep repeating this till you all listen to me kthx

-Y

If you vote orcinus today, I will listen to you tomorrow.

Why don't I get this same offer?

I'm on the end of my rope right now.
I hoped that reaching out to you and getting you to see my point would be the easiest aspect of turning this game around. It wasn't, and that's a large part of the reason why I'm so frustrated right now.

But I don't want to lynch PV. I think he is town. Orc is also clearly town based on his role. I get the whole reluctance to lynching AP but I am not convinced he is town.

I think Clyton is a good target.

[CarbonFiber]

I don't think you're making the game unfun for anyone and I never said that. I would just really ignore muffin when he says things insulting (and this goes for you too Bro) because what I've learned about muffin is that he feeds off those reactions he gets from people. If you don't believe me about that go read the neighborhood from Attack on Titan and see how he was talking about kthnxbye. He's overly hostile in many games and treats people like shit and quite frankly I don't really read a whole bunch of what he says because I hate when he talks to people the way he does. (and yes, I realize that at times I'm not exactly pleasant, but)

I *did* vote them last night; it was part of the source of you getting after me for voting and unvoting. A part of me would like to put an end to the noise and not have to deal with watching him insult people in the game which I feel is pretty inevitable especially with the way this game is going, but I do really like his other head AND I'm not sure they're scum.

I partly voted Orc to see where it would go, but considering I unvoted as soon as it got to L-1, I think it should be clear that I wasn't ready to see it go through.

I am also not getting this game, but what I am trying to do is be a bit objective. When I said I took a break from mafia this week for a reason, I meant it. I near replaced out of every game I was in just because things were getting to me and I was over it. I'm trying to be a bit more objective right now and not let so many things get to me. That was what I was referring to when asking you not to get after me. I'm at the point where I'd near almost lynch anyone. I still don't have a strong bank of town I'd bet the game on though I'd be super duper shocked if you flipped scum.

At the moment I don't even know how to parse this game. It's been extraordinarily noisy, I can't tell if it's just a bunch of noisy town with scum hiding and egging things on, or if it's scum who are playing to a whole bunch of theater. At the moment it has me feeling damn near paralyzed because the game doesn't make sense to me at all, and I don't know how to make it make sense right now.

Okay. I'll reset and start from scratch so hopefully I get on the same page as everyone else. If you are still alive D2 which I hope you are, I really think you can solve the game once we start seeing some flips and getting more information out there because I do think your reads develop really well past D1. At this point, I think the only lynch we can get is Orc to govern someone so I'll roll with that.

[CarbonFiber]

Orc, a lurker/feel-good lynch isn't going to give us a lot of information and wierd though Clyton's proposal might sound, I don't think it is a bad idea at all.

I'd really prefer you not put up PV. He is not a lurker. A lot of the observations he has made in the thread are very, very good and I genuinely, strongly believe that he is town. I can't honestly say the same for LordBusiness so I guess he is not a bad choice for putting up if you think he will flip scum. He hasn't posted anything of substance and the last post he made, I had some concerns. Him and Clyton would be good choices to put up.

[CarbonFiber]

Now that I come to think of it, what are everyone's thoughts about lynching LordBusiness?

[CarbonFiber]

What's worse is you have a heavy meta player (F16) who really has no excuse not to know this about me/mastin if he's read ANY games me/mastin have played together. And he thinks DespBro has a point here. And he thinks we're both scum with AP because.... ??????????????????????? Scum theatre? ??????????? ??????????????

If my posts seem like they're injected with vitriol here, it's because I loathe that sort of playstyle. It's why (prior to the miller counter-claim) I told Nati I'm no longer playing the game - I cannot deal with players who play like that. It's fucking enraging because not only are they playing like that, they have the sheer fucking arrogance of thinking they're right about something I know to be 100% wrong. Like I generally have confidence in my reads, but at no point do I ever say something like F16 said recently ("I've figured out the game earlier than others"). Holy fucking shit that post. I could honestly not believe how fucking arrogant someone so fucking wrong could be.

That's a rather absurd simplification of what I said. I said I found all three of you, Mastin, and AP scummy and I wouldn't discount you being in a team. If you are scum, you can continue lying about it but if you are town, realize that you misinterpreted what I am saying.

I was also trying to work with you assuming you were town and you shut that down and demanded I make a case on you which does jackshit to help us work together.

I feel like you are trying to get people to be mad at me for saying that I figured out the game earlier than others and paint me as arrogant for saying that. In fact, it couldn't be less arrogant and I actually think Tammy (and others) are much, MUCH better players than me for not being sure who the scum are.

The logic is quite simple. Scum need to mislynch some players and buddy up to the best players. Every move that scum make, they need to persuade the good players (like Nacho, Tammy, etc) to mislynch the not-so-good players in the game. As long as they play their hand right, they can try their best to fool the good players into mislynching the bad town players. In that process, the bad town players are gonna figure out that they are scum although they'll most likely be mislynched. Tammy knows this from Anything Goes where she was scum with Mastin and he identified who he was going to mislynch. It didn't matter to Mastin that Angry Frat BROS pegged the entire scumteam because the rest of the town weren't going to listen to them.

I am not being arrogant in saying that I think I have the scum figured out faster, I was saying that Tammy was stuck in a place where scum was attacking mislynchable townies and the townies were attacking back and it is up to her to figure the game out and she is right that she needs to evaluate both sides. It may be obvious to the people that scum are attacking but it won't be obvious to everyone.

[CarbonFiber]

I said I found all three of you, Mastin, and AP scummy and I wouldn't discount you being in a team.

Oh, no you fucking didn't. You've directly fucking said multiple fucking times now that your best for a scum team is Me-Mastin-AP. I will fucking bring up the quotes.

I was quite clear that I thought your interactions with each other were scummy but you are painting it as though I wouldn't find any of you scummy in a vacuum.

[CarbonFiber]

Also, I said I'll recalibrate and unless I missed something you are reading me as town. So, I don't see the point in continuing this discussion as opposed to starting from scratch and re-evaluating the game.

[CarbonFiber]

No you fucking said we are scum together. Multiple fucking times. I'm going through the second page of your ISO right now and compiling all the quotes where you directly call us scum together.

Not only that but you've said you "figured out the game" after calling all three of us scum together.

Yes, I said you were scum together. Multiple times even. And I said I "figured out the game" after calling all three of you scum together. If you look through my ISO, you'll find multiple quotes of me doing that. So? I am still not getting your point.

[CarbonFiber]

That is the fucking point. You just fucking

Holy

Fuck

What the fuck am I reading

I didn't say you were scum because of your interactions. You are missing causation from correlation. I called all of you scum and said your interactions fit as scum-scum but your interactions fitting isn't the only reason for you being scum.

[CarbonFiber]

I was explaining to Tammy why I'm frustrated with your shit play this game. It's not because you're wrong (people are sometimes wrong). It's because you're not only wrong, but I don't think you even have a good reason to be this wrong, and since you refuse to talk about WHY you think what you think, and you're arrogant enough to think you have the game figured out when YOU REALLY FUCKING DON'T, I think your play is fucking disgusting

You responded by saying "nuh uh, I said you're all scummy and wouldn't discount us being a team" which is BLATANTLY FUCKING UNTRUE and also implies that you weren't calling us a scum team

Fuck off and die in a hole. Back to being completely over playing with you......

I didn't imply that I wasn't calling you a scumteam because I was. You implied that the only reason I find you scummy is because you would fit into the team which isn't true.

[CarbonFiber]

@ RG, I don't really think that any wagon is viable at this point other than Orc and most players seem to have disappeared.

---

Also, the "ignore Muffin" advice was good so I am going to do that from now.

[CarbonFiber]

Part of why I am reading Desp and BRO as massively town is the entire way that BRO handled the situation with his suspects. It was really, really obvious that he was working for days and days to try and get a lynch on MastinSSK or Rancid. BRO as scum can sometimes put up a facade like when he was scum with me in AOT but he it is quite obvious that he doesn't genuinely believe in his reads there.

BRO as a person usually has excellent reads but sometimes lacks the charisma? to push them through so often gets frustrated when people won't listen to him. In the neighborhood and in this thread, it became really, abundantly obvious that no matter how much he pushed, a lynch on MastinSSK or RBD was extremely difficult to get through and the frustration was obviously building up for quite a while. I think it hit a peak when people turned on him and started to wagon him which was the final straw. I would be incredibly surprised if he pulled that off as scum as I've never seen anything more genuine. And this coming from someone that faked scum theater with BRO in AOT where we pre-decided what arguments we were going to push, how we were going to argue, and when we were going to pull back. BRO as scum is strategic, his arguments as scum and his emotional state when he is scum which I was privy to in real time in AOT is absolutely nothing like his emotional state when town.

I read Desp as town because of how he is making his pushes. His pushes as scum rarely make this much sense and he doesn't have the same passion, the same "bite" for lack of a better word and the same underlying feel to his posts where he knows for a fact that his arguments are good and ought to be followed.

[CarbonFiber]

Orc, regarding Fox, I think it is part of their playstyle. I for instance often try to develop townreads and use POE to nail down the scum.

I don't want to rush through your lines of questioning but there are 5 minutes left here. I think Fox and the Hound are town. If you are gonna put them up, no one can stop you, but please don't put them up against Breakfast because it would take away town the chance to decide the lynch. I'd actually recommend you put your two biggest suspects up so that town can choose if you aren't going to go with the general concensus of putting up LordB and maybe Clyton.

[CarbonFiber]

I am hammering Orc in a minute unless anyone has anything else to say.

[CarbonFiber]

Cabd has weird roles in games and I don't discount a town janitor-vig or a scum self-janitor. He said in the signup thread that is a single faction vs town game so I am pretty sure multiball is out of the picture.

There is no way scum killed RBD even if he is town considering their play D1.

[CarbonFiber]

I'd love to hear your updated kagura read from the neighborhood because I've grown more than a little suspicious about them.

I too had a lot of doubts about Nacho in the neighborhood. I'm not really sure if it is because we disagreed with the gamestate so much.

Nacho coming in and telling me to stop telling RBD not to use personal insults felt weird and him saying that Just Sheep Us were creating a carnival of Lunacy felt even wierder because to me, it seemed like it was RBD all along. I want to hear an objective viewpoint on whether any of how Nacho interpreted the gamestate made any sense whatsoever.

I argued at Nacho in the QT

Then I posted rebuttals to all of his posts towards the end of deadline. What worried me most was the

timing

of when he showed up. He was gone all game and suddenly, four hours or so before deadline, he was here and starting up multiple wagons.

I know you still have suspicions of BRO and Desp. However, their posting in the neighborhood felt incredibly transparent and townish. I hope it'll be apparent in the thread as well. Desp was going back and forth with Nacho as well about how his timing of showing up was weird. I also felt that he had no reason to be so frustrated with the gamestate when he wasn't even playing the game although he said he was reading.

But Bork felt really, really town and I am not sure how to reconcile with Nacho as scum. But everytime I saw Nacho, I got bad vibes from him. At one point, he posted a list of his reads in the neighborhood and I got the same NY169 bad vibes.

And yeah, I'll activate your neighborhood if there's anyone else in it.

[CarbonFiber]

Pretty much every time I see Bork post, my paranoia goes away somewhat. But I think Nacho has evolved beyond robotic during NY169. The flashwagon on Sakura and the dismantling of it, etc.

Ffery, do you have any actual scumreads at this point? One thing I wanted to ask about your reads-list is that I am not really sure what you were trying to convey. It seems like you have townreads on everyone.

[CarbonFiber]

The timing of when he showed up basically.

[CarbonFiber]

I am undecided on what to make of AP's whole gambit and I feel it is pretty useless.

Ffery, what exactly was the Song Contest trust card? I glossed over some parts of the game but I don't think I ever got it.

[CarbonFiber]

Mastin, I appreciate you

saying

that you are reaching out to me but you are not actually doing it. You are still pushing PV who is a pretty strong townread of mine. If you do happen to be town, I'd prefer you work with me to help lynch AngryPidgeon.

[CarbonFiber]

And quit spamming the thread, both of you. The past couple of pages have no new content. Just pointless arguing between the two of you while you call AP scum but put him for tomorrow and AP calls you bad town basically.

I want to hear more from DV, Kagura, Orc, and Titan especially.

[CarbonFiber]

VOTE: AngryPidgeon.

By the way, while I realize this vote is set up to be a reaction to F-16, and to some extent it is, I should clarify that it is something that I was already considering. The main reasons I have for not wanting AP dead are (1) the chance his role is legitimately town, and (2) AP being AP. Both of which aren't exactly strong, 'specially given their handling. (In particular, AP this game, not the AP-town that I'd defend to the death.) And I'm considering the reasons for wanting PV dead, and really the main one I have is just what I said, sheeping Rancid. Whereas with AP, I have a lot of me in there. F-16's posting just served as the catalyst to set it in motion.

I think his claim does look plausible and if it is a fake-claim, it is pretty good one. The issue I have is that the way he claimed seemed off and his entire "gambit" seems like he is fishing for reasons for suspicion and presenting it some sort of great "find" feels disingenuous.

What about PV didn't feel like town-PV to you? And I am playing under the assumption that Rancid is scum because their play makes much more sense that way. Your defense that you wouldn't kill town-Rancid isn't really the issue. I am not sure who accused you of that. Breakfast I think was saying that Rancid was town but not the scum kill.

Also, probably the only person I'd trust to lead the town at the moment is Pieguyn.

Nacho does concern me very much and I'm not really seeing any reason for Bork being uber town. I know that he's someone who's pretty transparent, but I'm not seeing it at all. If he's saving up all his cool town posts for the neighborhood, he should start bringing them in thread too.

So the thing about Bork is that a lot of his posts resonated even when positionally, his stances were different from me. The way he is approaching the game and reacting to in-game events feel like they make sense from a town-POV. He hasn't posted a lot but for some reason, I remembered a lot of his posts. The way he engaged Rancid about my analysis on Mac and the way he posted that meta-wall on Mastin all felt really town. Do you find any similarities between his play here and We The Purple? I know you deferred this read to Nacho but if happened to remember anything significant about his posting, that'll be cool to hear.

[CarbonFiber]

Also, if a vig killed Rancid and know their affiliation, it might not be a bad idea to speak up. Just remembered I played a game offsite where there was a janitor vig and only the vig was informed of the target's affiliation.

If anyone does know Rancid's affiliation right now, it would be helpful to reveal.

[CarbonFiber]

CF </3

[CarbonFiber]

I'm stunned.

Seriously stunned.

What post was this in response to?

[CarbonFiber]

Ah I mean I obviously don't mind things like that being said, but I thought you said you'd be less likely to say that over the town as fuck convo we had.

I don't say it lightly. I feel like my play has been transparent and my stances have been impossible to miss.

I can see you as town but I strongly disagree about your stances being clear. I don't ever think I've been this puzzled about your stances before in any game that we've played. You have "town," "maybe town" and "prob-town" lists and I have no idea who you would be willing to lynch and who you wouldn't. And D1, who you chose to deadline wagon seemed pretty arbitrary as well.

Also, I wanted to ask you this before but forgot. D1, I asked if you wanted to compromise lynch Mastin, you said that Rancid was most likely going to be lynched and that you thought I was wrong but hoped I was right. If you had no scumreads at that point and you thought a wagon on Rancid was going to go through, why wouldn't you defer to Beli's Mastin read (who you weren't reading as strongly town as Rancid) and work with me to compromise there as opposed to watching the Rancid wagon build up (before Nacho entered the thread)?

[CarbonFiber]

CarbonFiber, how sure do you feel that your neighborhood is all town?

I would bank the game on Pie/GIF, and BRO/Desp. I gave my views on Kagura and I don't have them as strongly town as I did before.

[CarbonFiber]

Also ffery, why haven't you been working with Pie as much considering you both hydra together etc.

[CarbonFiber]

Also ffery, why haven't you been working with Pie as much considering you both hydra together etc.

Pie has one objective and he's pushing it for all he's worth. There's nothing

to

work with besides voting Mastin atm. Which we ma do.

We still have concerns about AP, though. I'd really like your thoughts about his results. Do you think he was roleblocked?

There's some stuff I've been thinking about regarding night actions but I don't know how useful it would be to talk about it at this point. I'll get back to this later.

[CarbonFiber]

I think it's pretty key given LB's flip.

I

may

talk about it today, I'll think about it. In any case, I want to double-check something with Cabd.

---

My read on Yggdra was based almost entirely on Pie's posts. I didn't factor in the fact that he replaced in but that once he did, his posts were oozing obvtown everywhere in the thread.

[CarbonFiber]

Here's where I am at: I'd still bet the farm on Yggrdra, Titan, and JSU. I took a look at Dark Age of the Law Mafia to see PV's scum-posting and it looks very different. In particular, his posting doesn't resonate to me the way it does here which makes me more certain about his affiliation. I am similarly confident about the Fox and the Hound every time DV posts. RedGyarados still feels town although I am not sure if I agree with Ffery's depiction of NotScience meta but then again, we look at it in very different ways. Cupcake is still a pretty strong town read. I have weaker townleans on Kagura, Orc, and Breakfast, null on Clyton. The game still leads right back to MastinSSK and AngryPidgeon. Happy to see Mastin getting lynched today. I want to hear if anyone has any other thoughts before moving forward.

[CarbonFiber]

/content to come in a bit.

I am going to say this one more time, please stop spamming the thread. You are making the game harder to sift through. I'd actually very much like to hear from Kagura, Orc, Clyton, and Titan.

CF, what do you mean by "moving forward"?

Before we go ahead with a lynch but I'd actually be interested in seeing Kagura's thoughts.

Are you guys going to want my notes to be posted

Go for it. I'd like to see them.

[CarbonFiber]

Mastin, humor me what would you do if you were scum, then in this playerlist? Give me a brief outline on how you would evaluate the players, who you kill, who you would try to mislynch etc assuming the game played out the way it did D1.

[CarbonFiber]

Mastin, regarding your reads: I think there are a few significant differences from what you posted in Anything Goes, especially you didn't say much about Brian Skies being a threat here while you held him in high regard there. Also, I have trouble believing that you barely noticed Pieguyn's entry into the game. For the most part, I guess I can buy it.

But the other problem I have is that you created an imaginary dialogue with you and AP saying that you and Rancid buddying hard as scum while bussing Hawk is unlikely for you to do as scum as well as the you-AP back and forth but is it really? When Rancid was being wagoned, you, Rancid, and AP all worked really well in tandem to put in your best effort to derail the lynch. That fits in quite well with what you would do as scum. A pseudo-townbloc consisting of scum.

[CarbonFiber]

Deal with it

CF </3

Don't you try to butter up to me now when you've broken my heart!

You break my heart everytime you *twitch* at me. I got over it. You'll get over it.

[CarbonFiber]

What if I don't

I will come into your garden, plant ten amazing species of plants and flowers, bring you a copy of Wicked, and braid your hair while you read. If you don't get over it then, I'll write you off as a lost cause.

[CarbonFiber]

I will note that I am waffling hard on Mastin right now. I don't have the same strong scumfeel that I had on her throughout D1, can't quite put finger on it but might be because of tone.

Either way I feel I can't get a read on anyone and it's really irking me.

Can you give me a list of your reads?

[CarbonFiber]

To clarify, Nacho last posted yesterday morning saying that he thought scum was among MastinSSK, AP, Clyton, Orc, and PV. I was waiting to hear updated thoughts mostly.

Oh, btw, did you get a good read on Clyton in the neighborhood?

[CarbonFiber]

Deal with it

We would have claimed if the wagon went our direction.

I'm not willing to full claim today. I will say that CF should have received a message last night. I don't think he'd have been told who sent it.

Yeah, I did. That was what I was referring to regarding the night actions. I am still not sure if it is actually worth anything. Might post it in the neighborhood though if I can solidify an townread on Kagura.

[CarbonFiber]

What were bork's reads?

not yet. Clyton and I claimed to each other. But he hasn't been around much and neither have I. I asked him what he thought of Mastin yesterday, and he said he was catching up. I haven't heard from him since.

but i'm interested in something and how it plays out.

oh but there was one thing that interested me. during yesterday's cagefight, LB claimed pretty readily. Did anyone else realize that Breakfast never claimed during that affair? That seems like it would have been the natural impetus for people to do.

Bork didn't post a reads-list but he seemed to lean town on RedGyarados. He was also scumreading PV on D1. I don't know any of his other reads.

I didn't expect Breakfast to claim because I assumed that the lynch was going to be LB (especially with LB himself advocating his lynch) and Breakfast was just there as filler.

There are a few different ways I've been looking at this game. The most obvious one that I think is most likely is what I was pushing for most of the game: Mastin, Rancid, and AP are scum with an unknown fourth member who fooled me decently well that isn't you, BRO-Desp, Yggdra, RG, Fox, PV, or Orc. I am not sure if Kagura will fit into this worldview. Nacho showing up at deadline to completely derail a wagon on a scumbuddy would be a pretty ballsy move. He's only done it with townies before, never fellow scum. Also, his usual interactions with zMuffin as scum-scum is to lightly distance but not TRULY push for the lynch of the lynch of the other the way they did in NY169. This is one of the reasons I called bussing hard on Mastin and AP (because of how they left the outs to lynch PV). My concern that two scum wagons would end up in a town lynch was largely based on Wicked where Nacho and I were wagoned along with UT and T-Bone hydra with the lynch somehow turning onto town-BRO. We all commented on it in the scum QT as well. That's exactly what I was worried would happen with Mastin and AP making a ton of noise but neither getting lynched and lurkertown was deadline lynched instead.

Another worldview is that Nacho and ffery are scum (either one of them or both of them). This is a little weaker but I wouldn't completely rule out ffery not voting at all on Mastin but happily voting BRO at deadline. (As an aside, I know you suspect them but you'd know there is not a chance they are scum if you see the neighborhood thread so I am basically assuming they are town and seeing who votes them). I also wouldn't rule out Breakfast being the last scum along with Mastin/Rancid/AP either. But there are a few things that heavily made me lean town on ffery so I am holding back. And her explanation that she didn't want to lynch Nati's townread in order to save him isn't a bad one either.

A third one involves getting behind Mastin and Rancid completely. I am not sure I can do this but if I do, I am still seeing AP as a scum that Mastin/Rancid caught. The other scum are apparently the low-hanging fruit like PV, maybe Orc. But I have a superstrong townread on PV so I am not sure I buy it. I could still buy Mastin/Rancid town being wrong about PV.

Overall, I can sense some movements in the game that would happen if Rancid and Mastin are town. Specifically Nacho's whiteknighting of Rancid. But it is harder to see Kagura-scum, Rancid-town because Rancid was pretty hard-townreading Kagura and I figured if they were town, they'd have some inkling that Kagura was scum. How likely is Kagura to fit in with a Mastin/Rancid/AP team? Do you think there is still merit to the idea of those three being a team or Mastin and Rancid distancing?

All I am sure of is that this game is not easy. It is not a game that we're going to win by lynching lurkers - PV/Orc etc and everytime Mastin or Nacho bring up the idea that the low hanging fruit/lurkergroup contain scum, it brings up massive glaring red flags. One thing I am convinced is that scum aren't among the players that are easy to lynch and if they were so, this is not the gamestate that we would have ended up at this point.

[CarbonFiber]

Cabd

(and everyone), just to let you know, I have finals and projects due during the first couple of weeks of April (the last one is on the 13th), so I

might

be more active after that. But my activity will be decreased before that although I'll still check in and keep up with the thread and I may exceed the prod limit. FT's finals end on the fifth and he said he would be massively active after that since apparently he has more free time then.

Tammy

, I saw your post about your reads and I understand where you are coming from with regards to BRO because his play here

is

different from Wicked and his posts in the dead thread match up with the philosophy you described (caring more about getting lynched as scum). There are a few things I've witnessed in the neighborhood though and how they played out in the thread that made me certain enough to bank the game on this read with a certainty that I rarely, rarely have. I'll outline it for you in another wall so we can see eye to eye on it and get on the same page. I want all four of us (you, me, Desp-BRO, PieGIF to be on the same page about the four of us). Let me present my read and tell me if you are convinced or show me where you think I'm wrong.

[CarbonFiber]

Okay,

here's why I think BRO is town

:

- Consider the amount of emotional involvement that BRO has had in the game versus Wicked. Once he and Desp got themselves involved and placed that vote on Rancid, we were dealing with a very tense gamestate and BRO's personal involvement in the game was incredibly high. This was compounded when Rancid were insulting BRO every step of the way. I think the insults furthered the amount of emotional investment that he had in the game and the more they insulted him, the more personally involved he got into getting them lynched. This isn't unusual. When someone is kind and friendly, but a player thinks that they are scum, that player wouldn't be as desperate to get their opponent lynched and they'd be less angry if their opponent got away. What Rancid did in the game was heighten tensions between them and BRO. They trash-talked, insulted BRO's posting, tried to rile him up, took digs at him, challenged him to a gladiator match, sized him up etc. There was really no end to what they did on D1 and you know how Muffin gets when he really wants to rile someone up. I think that BRO reacted to this by getting even more invested in their lynch and wanted them lynched very, very badly.

- This level of investment doesn't happen very often and the way Mala and Cabd/Penguin persued him in Wicked was markedly different for these reasons. Penguin even told me later that she wanted to work with BRO and had that happened, she would have chosen to neighborize him N1. Malakittens didn't bait BRO, she didn't insult his posting and make him badly, desperately want her dead. She played a fair game and won. Considering that, I wouldn't expect BRO to have the same fury at being lynched in place of his target during Wicked. He was lynched by players that genuinely liked him and cared about him and went about it in a decent way. While he was frustrated, it is not to the extent that it was here.

- Now onto the mechanics of how the lynch happened. BRO-Desp, Pie, and I were pushing the wagon on Rancid and it seemed likely that it would go through. At least upon Pie's replacement, the likelihood of a Rancid lynch magnified. This gave BRO

hope

that they would be lynched. The wagon stalled at times, and I could sort of sense BRO metaphorically drumming his fingers on the table waiting for the lynch to be pushed through at deadline. It was by no means a guarantee, but there was a good chance it would go through and I think BRO was waiting on tenterhooks for it to happen. It was almost assured that he, BRO, wouldn't be lynched. It was either going to be his choice of lynch (Rancid), or a lynch he would prefer not to happen (a lurker), and that was the dichotomy that BRO was looking at. Nacho came in and starting shaking the wagons around just when momentum on the Rancid wagon was stalling and I could tell some of the hope was lost and the disappointment started to etch through like a crash after a sugar high. It became apparent that he would fail and all the work was for nothing. I think anyone would be disappointed and upset.

- From that emotional state, I think the final straw that broke down BRO was the sudden flashwagon on his slot at deadline. So, here we had BRO pushing the Rancid wagon by slowly working through obstacles to finally get this lynch through, and all of sudden, it seems not only is his adversary getting away, but he himself was being wagoned with no resistance at all. It was an astonishing sight to watch from the outside and I can see why BRO who was the target would meltdown at that point. After all the insults from Rancid, the sizing up, the dick-measuring, everything, and he, BRO is target of a dumb deadline wagon that some people hopped onto without a care in the world. This wasn't the case in Wicked. He was battling a worthy opponent (Malakittens) and she won fairly. There was frustration if you read the Wicked thread closely. BRO was annoyed. Just not as much as he was here.

- Look at it from a scum POV: there is no way BRO as scum is this invested in getting a lynch. He wants to survive sure, but the burning desire for Rancid to die and the constant and consistent efforts to make it happen is highly unlikely to come from scum. This is most of what I was referring to from the neighborhood. It is apparent that BRO wants Mastin and Rancid both lynched with an intensity that I've rarely encountered before. He didn't meltdown because he cared about surviving as scum. I think he melted down because his efforts were not only ignored, but at a very, very crucial, critical point when he was losing hope in achieving his goal, the wagon, almost unbelievably turned right at him and it was no longer a question of whether he could get Rancid lynched but of whether Rancid could get

him

lynched.

- I totally agree that his reaction to being run up is vastly different from Wicked. I think a combination of circumstances account for this difference as opposed to BRO's alignment being different. Your logic makes sense: It is true that he said he cares more about being lynched as scum, and he cared more here than he did in his last towngame. One thing I really love about your scumhunting is that you are empathetic enough to understand how others are feeling and if you put yourself in BRO's place with all that he had to endure in this game, realize what he wants, and what his goals are, you'll see why he reacted in such a different way than he did in Wicked.

[CarbonFiber]

Wait a minute. Nacho has mastin in his potential scum pool? I thought he had a town read there.

He said he was coming around to seeing Mastin and AP as scum a couple of days ago but I haven't heard back from him. I do hope that he is town and he shows up soon in the thread.

I too am waiting for NotScience and Brian so I can solidify my read there. I thought NotScience's early play was town and it would be great if they can re-inforce that feeling.

Orc's role does somewhat clash but I'm scumreading Rancid so I am not overly worried about it. What about Orcinus concerned you beyond the possibility that Nacho bussed?

[CarbonFiber]

Cabd

(and everyone), just to let you know, I have finals and projects due during the first couple of weeks of April (the last one is on the 13th), so I

might

be more active after that. But my activity will be decreased before that although I'll still check in and keep up with the thread and I may exceed the prod limit. FT's finals end on the fifth and he said he would be massively active after that since apparently he has more free time then.

Tammy

, I saw your post about your reads and I understand where you are coming from with regards to BRO because his play here

is

different from Wicked and his posts in the dead thread match up with the philosophy you described (caring more about getting lynched as scum). There are a few things I've witnessed in the neighborhood though and how they played out in the thread that made me certain enough to bank the game on this read with a certainty that I rarely, rarely have. I'll outline it for you in another wall so we can see eye to eye on it and get on the same page. I want all four of us (you, me, Desp-BRO, PieGIF to be on the same page about the four of us). Let me present my read and tell me if you are convinced or show me where you think I'm wrong.

So you have a towntowntown group.

What makes you say that?

I am not "townblocing" in the sense of formally separating players into those that I will work with and those that I won't. I am trying to bridge a communication gap between two players that I am 99% certain are town and it is based on the certainty of my townreads there.

[CarbonFiber]

Maybe it's an artifact of where your focus currently is, but I feel like there's a whole game going on here, not just those 3 players.

I'm trying to move up a few thousand feet in terms of how I'm viewing the game, because I'm kinda tired of talking to the same people with the same disagreements and agreements constantly.

From my perspective, it's not moving the game forward. And I don't think anything is going to seriously move the game forward until more players are really engaged today.

Of course there is a whole game going on and I didn't direct my wall at you so I have no idea why you would be tired of talking about it. I particularly don't like posts like these where you discourage analysis or look down upon town players working with each other.

I have been moving the game forward by collaborating with townreads and making sure we lynch one of Mastin/AP today. I really don't want this to turn into yet another noisy day where Mastin and AP make a spectacle of themselves and we lynch another lurker. My objective is to make sure we drive one of their lynches through today and I need you on my side if you are town.

[CarbonFiber]

My thought is vig. I've given some minor thought to 2 scum teams, and it might make sense of where the daytime lines get drawn, but I'm nowhere near convinced that's what's going on.

Please tell me this isn't real

I forget who suggested it. I've rolled it around in my head a few times. I dunno. I don't think so. The puzzle pieces aren't coming together very easily, though.

I think the huge divergence in RBD reads indicates two very different fragments of town in this game, with two strongly divergent ideas about what is going on.

Talk to me about these fragments of town with strongly divergent ideas. Obviously, at a surface level, it is apparent to anyone that reads the thread but I am hoping that you could elaborate in depth on these ideas.

What do you think is going on in the game and why do you think these divergent ideas developed. Do they say anything about the affiliation of the people who have these ideas? Where do you currently stand? Have your thoughts been updated since the last time you posted your list of reads?

[CarbonFiber]

I'd actually very much like to hear from Kagura, Orc, Clyton, and Titan.

Thoughts on what? Sorry, I skimmed through.

Your updated reads mostly and whether you got anything out of your back-and-forth with MastinSSK earlier in the game.

[CarbonFiber]

What are those things?

[CarbonFiber]

I was just about to head out when I saw the latest posts on my phone and chose to come back, open my laptop and respond, it is starting to get unhealthy, I really should be in the library studying for a test I have this evening. But I still want to have a breakthrough in understanding here so I'll respond to this. Anyways,

The thing about neighborhoods and what I've experienced in this game is that when you have ideas and opinions that are strongly held and people in your neighborhood share it, they all end up re-inforcing and strengthening those same ideas. I've seen that in action. There were times when I thought Mastin could be town, but then I remember how sure Pieguyn was about him being scum when he replaced in. I remember the certainty with which BRO and Desp accused Mastin toward the end of Day 1. I look back at Pie talking about how Mastin/Rancid/AP interactions re-inforced his scumreads on all three of them and then realize that the initial way I thought of the game does in fact make the most sense.

We have in fact talked in the neighborhood about stuff we didn't post in thread. I don't think that anything I've posted in the thread in surface level. Perhaps I haven't communicated it well enough to you that it comes across as surface level but I'm happier with the way I've been thinking about this game than I have in some games (like NY169 for instance). I don't know for sure whether some of my thoughts were developed in the neighborhood and I presented my finished findings here without showing all of my thoughts in thread so I won't discount that you may right that my deeper thoughts are hidden in the neighborhood although I feel it isn't likely. Is there is anything you want me to go deeper into? I'd be happy to explain it further.

Beli suggested a couple days ago in our hydra convo that the game isn't going anywhere because all the focus is on AP/Mastin today (and to a fair extent day 1 as well). I'm trying to widen my focus and talk to other players about things other than AP/Mastin, but Mastin doesn't make that easy.

Okay, here's where we disagree fundamentally and this is what I want to talk about. There has been a lot of noise about them. It is a recurring pattern I see game after game whenever there are charismatic scum players involved. People talk and talk about them for most of the day and then scramble around deadline trying to find an alternative lynch. You've seen this happen D1. I'd rather it not happen D2. Let's start figuring out our stances and moving towards a lynch sooner rather than later. I feel like there is this natural psychological impulse to say "okay, that's a lot of noise, let's focus on others." I think we are discounting the usage of noise as a scum tactic. In Attack on Titan, BRO and I were pressured early, and we got into a pointless argument and people discouraged us from voting each other. In Wicked, Nacho and I vs UT and T-Bone went the same way.

You gave your stances that you don't want to vote Mastin or AP? Who

do

you want to vote for? I feel that a repeat of D1 is going to incredibly unhelpful and I want you to help me make today a better day than D1. You saw the clusterfuck that happened at the end of D1 where you still had no idea who to vote for and a lack of a sense of direction with a ton of panic wagons created at deadline. It would help if as one of the few consistently active players, you spend more time talking about your reads, hashing out disagreements, and explaining who you would vote for so we can see where there is an overlap of reads and get an informed lynch. I'd be really happy to see more pro-activeness. I am really not sure what you want other than for the lurkers to post (which is something we all want). I am still unsure what frustrates you about the gamestate and it is one of the things I was puzzled regarding your stances D1. Rancid made the game a drag to play (some people may disagree), and then complained about the state of the game. You responded by giving them hugs and saying their antics were the only bright thing in a sea of frustration (I am paraphrasing). But I am unable to see if there is some sort of mystical entity that caused all of these bad things and Rancid's alt-slips were the one thing that is funny since I'm seeing them as the source of everything that was wrong with the game D1. Maybe Mastin/AP as well but there is only one problem I have with them and that is spam. Neither of them went to Rancid levels of personal attacks. I agree that Mastin's creating a lot of noise and posting way too much.

One more thing - you are falling into a pattern of trusting the reads of people who agree with you and not trusting the reads of those that you disagree with. For all the "internalizing" you said you did about my thoughts on your play, I feel like doing this puts us right back in square one. The point of working with players for me is to either convince people, or let them convince me by bouncing my thoughts off of them. When you separate people into those you agree with and those you don't and refuse to work with the latter group, I feel that you'd never get out of having incorrect reads because

by definition

, you are not being receptive to those that disagree with you which pretty much puts the game at a deadlock. I won't defend your lack of trust in MastinSSK or ask you to work with them although on principle I should because suspecting you isn't a reason for discarding their opinions. I will point out though that disagreeing about Rancid's affiliation isn't a reason to distrust my view on the gamestate. If at some point, it is revealed whether Rancid is scum, hopefully you'll make the necessary adjustments and if it is revealed that they are town, I will do the same. And I wonder if you'll start trusting my view if Mastin/Rancid/AP are all scum.

You say your stances are clear and you say that as town you hope that your motivations will show through and things that you do will reflect you having a town wincon. Please try and do something to make this apparent. You made a list of varying degress of town. It is just not something I can make any sense of because that is not how the game is structured. Someone is scum and you are probably going to vote someone. Make an effort to figure out who it is, and who you will vote. Can you give me two-three names? Who are the people that you still need to sort?

[CarbonFiber]

PeregrineV

, I am unsure about Clyton but I am strongly townreading Titan and I don't think that their neighborhood activity is alignment relevant. For one, they've only had the neighborhood starting on D2 whereas we've had the neighborhood from D1 and had lots of time to talk through things. Also, for most of the time that Titan/Clyton neighborhood has been active, Clyton was on V/LA, Tammy busy, and I don't think Arthur checked in for a long time so I wouldn't read too much into it.

Ffery

, I found your response to my last wall lacking in depth. You say you want to figure out the game. Why aren't you doing so? I asked you what about my stances weren't clear but you didn't point to any specifics and it is coming off like you are trying to dismiss my pushes rather than understand them due to the lack of follow up. I also wanted to know what your issues with the game are right now and how you intend to resolve them. In particular, I asked how they make sense with your stance on Rancid. Your short response feels like brushing aside my questions and a large part of my wall rather than addressing them. Also, when is Beli going to show up? I want to talk to him about his reads.

Regarding PV's "townslip

:" We originally started off our neighborhood in a QT. Cabd then closed it and changed it to a Private thread about halfway through D1. I assume that the scum too had a QT to begin with which later changed to a Private thread. I am not sure how this affects PV's "townslip."

[CarbonFiber]

I think this will clarify things a bit with regard to 4114 and 4118.

Spoiler:

That's never been the pattern in the first place. If someone is reading me wrong, then I question their other reads and their understanding of the gamestate. If Mastin is town, then her understanding of the game state is warped by her misreading me.

this is pretty dumb considering townies have misread townies in every game of mafia ever

also you are seriously overrating how influential the neighborhood is and how much content it's robbing from the actual game thread. the vast majority of f-16's posting there has made its way here, either verbatim or spread throughout several posts.

That's never been the pattern in the first place. If someone is reading me wrong, then I question their other reads and their understanding of the gamestate. If Mastin is town, then her understanding of the game state is warped by her misreading me.

this is pretty dumb considering townies have misread townies in every game of mafia ever

I don't think that's what she's saying. She's saying she doubts Mastin's understanding of the game because he's misreading her, and though it can take you in the wrong direction it's a pretty natural stance to have. It's a similar way she viewed taking seriously Nacho's reads when Nacho tried to put together a scum team with greyice on it in Tales of the Abyss when she had role information that pointed to GI town.

I don't know if the level of disagreement between both of you guys is because of a massive playstyle clash. I think you both make good points but it feels like there is a communication breakdown.

I think what Desp was saying was that Ffery's overall reads are unclear. He's said this before and elaborated in the neighborhood about how the way she organizes her reads don't make any sense. He has a valid point.

I also think Tammy's analogy about Nacho makes sense that it can sometimes be hard to take someone seriously if they are scumreading you and basing their other reads off of it which might lead that player to think that their entire understanding of the game is warped. I think Tammy is referring more to people that base their reads associatively assuming that their scumread is scum and Desp is referring more to how discounting someone's reads just because they have one read wrong is dumb. I think he is talking about it in absolute scumreads as opposed to associative ones.

Hopefully, that makes sense? I wish you'd kiss and make up (unless this is actually helping with getting reads in which case never mind this post).

[CarbonFiber]

It is a recurring pattern of disagreements that I think is fracturing the town. I think they are both coming from different but genuine places. But it may help them get reads through interactions so I don't know.

I don't like Mastin talking about "this is what a scum-me would do" etc, but his attack on Nacho gave me pause. I want to see how Nacho responds.

[CarbonFiber]

Also, when is Beli going to show up? I want to talk to him about his reads.

I'm here. Perhaps a bit less "here" this week and next than I have been due to work issues, but if you've got any questions, I'm still checking this thread twice a day.

-B

Have your reads changed since 3406 and are there any players you feel strongly are town/scum? Who are the players you still need to sort?

[CarbonFiber]

Hah! I still don't have any real scumreads except Mastin.

Nacho's still slipping into the null category, but more or less, yeah.

My biggest concern right now is "who is the snake in the grass in my strong town reads?" but (as Ffery mentioned earlier) it's kind of hard to work that out with all of the Mastin/AP cockwaving going on and bugger all else and I've got a serious case of wtfdoidoitis. (Not blaming that on the noise this game, though, that's all me. I seem to go through it for at least a while in every Large I play in.)

Okay. You guys's read on Mastin was something you disagreed with for a large part of D1 and D2. Are you making any progress in your discussion?

Who are the people that you would be willing to lynch come deadline? This is more so we don't have crazy flashwagons the day of the deadline.

[CarbonFiber]

Are you referring to Mastin's series of 100 walls as the metaphorical bomb here?

[CarbonFiber]

Are you referring to Mastin's series of 100 walls as the metaphorical bomb here?

I'm referring to BRO's 4169

I'm terrible at detecting sarcasm in text. Was that sarcasm?

Pretty sure it is a typo. If not, then BRO and I have a lot of talking to do.

[CarbonFiber]

Okay, just read the last few pages, still in the process of digesting them.

So, I wondered more than once if my view of the gamestate was horribly wrong after Mastin's post to ffery but the AoT links makes me feel that it isn't.

It is mostly because sort of resonated with me. I think Breakfast is more likely town than scum but it has been frustrating at times to see eye to eye with ffery.

Why are they so obviously town? Who are the people that are posturing to lynch them?

[CarbonFiber]

I mean, besides Mastin obviously.

[CarbonFiber]

My read on JSU is all over the place. It's what inspired the JSU!town wall from falcon. There are some things consistent with his town game such as discussing positionals or at least are consistent with how I've seen him scum hunt and what he talked about in the Wicked dead qt. But there are some things that are off that I can't quite put my finger on, including the melt down, which now I'm bringing up again and it makes me feel like shit to even question if it was real and if it was I'm going to feel like the most horrible person ever, but it conflicts with what I've experienced and talked with Bro about and how he views getting lynched as town. desperado hasn't been present enough to really get a feel there, not that I'm great at reading desperado anyway. But they're part of the undercurrent that looks like they're positioning themselves to lynch the ffery hydra and they way that whole arc is going is bugging me, so they're bugging me.

I'm just not real sure what's going on this game. I feel like there are several alternate universes in play right now and I can't figure out which one is the real one.

Just got to this. I can see the suspicion is because we are all "pushing" on ffery in some way or another. You are noticing this as an "undercurrent" because Desp and I have discussed Breakfast in the neighborhood thread and that's why we were in sync whenever he posed a question. I knew what he was going to ask and where he was coming from.

If you are questioning your townread on me because I question mine on ffery, why not ask me for details about what my issues with Breakfast are to sort it out?

I also don't think that I've been playing any "gotcha" cards with Breakfast. I am trying pretty hard to get them to spill out their thought processes to solidify my read.

[CarbonFiber]

I probably would if it didn't feel like this game was in pockets instead of on the table and I felt like I could trust anything.

I'm not questioning my town read on you, mostly, I still would be surprised if you flipped scum, I just feel hesitant about everything and I don't know what to do to make it make sense.

Okay. I think I see the problem so I'll try to explain it the best I can and maybe it will help make things clear.

I don't think you are off-base in suspecting the undercurrents from Desp and me because the way we approached some of our reads, particularly the one on Breakfast is very similar to how scum do it. In particular, the pre-planning and discussion in the neighborhood QT before we reveal in thread has that "planned" nature to its reads. Here's what hapenned:

There were plenty of times in D1 where Desp, BRO, and Pie have commented on how Ffery's reads list doesn't make sense. Desp also really, really hated that reads list in the cagefight that Ffery provided. Pie has a lot of times questioned Breakfast's motivation. I was the one in the neighborhood who steadfastly supported that Ffery was town. I got irritated when she defended Rancid even after he was cc'd but thought it was wrong town while others in the neighborhood thought it to be scum. We've had extensive discussion about what Ffery would and wouldn't do as scum. I even went over a Ffery towngame where she was wrong town to see if it is plausible that Ffery could have misread scum-Nati. GIF has been supporting town-Ffery for most of the game. Bork and Nacho have also said that this is Ffery's town game but they weren't as active. We've all had a really detailed well-hashed out debate.

When Desp started pushing Ffery, it wasn't something he made up on the spot but something that has been built and repressed for a while. I assume he repressed his suspicions because he thought he could work with Ffery if she was town while bottling all of his paranoia in the neighborhood QT. That's why I made that spoiler post where you instantly corrected Desp on what Ffery was saying. I could see you taking Ffery's side over Desp and I didn't want that chasm to grow wider. I think Desp probably did a bad job of expressing his suspicions in that post and your logic is sound. But I knew where he was coming from because we had discussed it for over a week in the neighborhood and that question seemed valid to me and not at all a cause for concern.

I think it is likely the neighborhood is causing more harm than good because it has been more difficult to get on the same page with you than in any other game before. We're both reading different games, that much is obvious. Mine has an extra 20 pages of BRO-Desp's, and Pie-GIF's thoughts and I think it is possible it hurt more than it helped as far as syncing is concerned. The read on Ffery was borne more out of frustration than anything else and I don't think I

should

be scumreading her for it.

[CarbonFiber]

Cf, it really annoys me that you can just ignore comments and questions directed at you so readily by people who aren't Tammy.

Tammy: Why should PV have you as scum right now??

I think you are scum and don't particularly care whether or not you are on the same page as me.

I see you "refuted" my wall on BRO. Good for you. You have the last word in a debate. That's an advantage. I am not going respond to it again.

I'm still digesting the other stuff in the thread. I'll get to those once I do.

[CarbonFiber]

Jesus. you wonder why RBD was so pissed off at you, this is why. You are so fucking full of yourself. Its been a great displeasure this game CF.

Go fuck yourself.

I went back and looked to see me interacting with Beli and Ffery quite a lot, and PV as well. I am obviously not interacting with my neighborhood in thread. Most others haven't been active. I was holding off on explaining my Titan townread to PV. The only person I was ignoring is you. And choosing what of Mastin's posts to respond to because I just can't respond to ALL of them.

I'm ignoring you because you are going into a "refute and debate" mode. It doesn't seem like you were genuinely trying to figure out my affiliation or see where I am coming from. You are not handling suspicion in a "reasonable" way. That's part of why I didn't mind interacting with Ffery/Beli because even when I questioned their affiliation, they are still talking about it in a mature way.

I am not going to get into "you misrepped me, you are scum" "no you misrepped me, YOU are scum" type fruitless back and forth with you. If you have anything genuine to talk about and resolve, I am happy to go over it.

[CarbonFiber]

Jesus. you wonder why RBD was so pissed off at you, this is why. You are so fucking full of yourself. Its been a great displeasure this game CF.

Go fuck yourself.

I went back and looked to see me interacting with Beli and Ffery quite a lot, and PV as well. I am obviously not interacting with my neighborhood in thread. Most others haven't been active. I was holding off on explaining my Titan townread to PV. The only person I was ignoring is you. And choosing what of Mastin's posts to respond to because I just can't respond to ALL of them.

I'm ignoring you because you are going into a "refute and debate" mode. It doesn't seem like you were genuinely trying to figure out my affiliation or see where I am coming from. You are not handling suspicion in a "reasonable" way. That's part of why I didn't mind interacting with Ffery/Beli because even when I questioned their affiliation, they are still talking about it in a mature way.

I am not going to get into "you misrepped me, you are scum" "no you misrepped me, YOU are scum" type fruitless back and forth with you. If you have anything genuine to talk about and resolve, I am happy to go over it.

Not to pile on, but there's been a marked difference in your interactions with us vs Titan.

Yeah, I wasn't trying to figure out Titan's affiliation since I wasn't questioning it. Interactions with you are two-fold.

[CarbonFiber]

Which, if AP is town, makes his observation a reasonable one. There's no one else in the game thread you're that amicable with.

Maybe. But after that back-and-forth with Bulbazak in that Micro game, I have an aversion towards interacting with players that I can sense will create a lot of noise if interacted with and too little content. But that was a Micro game and I don't care as much about getting into wall wars in smaller games.

[CarbonFiber]

Okay, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and try this once:

Responses to AP

:

And why are you so certain that RBD janitored by town?

If mastin is scum with RBD, surely her team would have mountains of motivation to Janitor RBD if possible.

I am not

certain

that RBD was janitored by the town. I said that it was likely town because I was scumreading RBD. It is possible they were a scum self-janitor. I didn't specifically mention it before because I probably didn't think of it at that point.

Also, if a vig killed Rancid and know their affiliation, it might not be a bad idea to speak up. Just remembered I played a game offsite where there was a janitor vig and only the vig was informed of the target's affiliation.

If anyone does know Rancid's affiliation right now, it would be helpful to reveal.

Im not buying this sentiment.

ESPECIALLY because you believe yourself to have hard CC'd RBD at multiple points both Yesterday and Today:

Also, I obviously was personally involved with the whole cc'ing miller thing so was more certain than someone watching from the outside. I don't know how it looks like from your viewpoint so I want to see where you are coming from.

I got irritated when she defended Rancid even after he was cc'd

I am considering different possibilities.

Oh also you are scumreading me and mastin and RBD on a connection case that is just bad. And I tried to talk to you about that and that got blown off as well. There is LITERALLY no way mastin or I would be doing this as scum buddies. Literally. And from someone who has apparently been wellread in mastin meta, you should know this.

Your holding back and waiting for something to happen makes no sense given that you are also expressing paranoia that not acting will result in another lurker lynch. That is scummy cogmnitive dissonance.

Your ignoring my questions because "Im scum and you dont care" is scummy and Im over it.

I dont care that literally everyone is misreading you in this game. I dont think Ive accused a single damn person of misrepping anything in this game, so your little tidbit of what an argument with me is like is just a deflection. The only person Ive been having crap arguments with this game is mastin, through no fault of my own. But Ive pretty much given up caring about her for that reason.

P-edit: no, Im not.

I am not scumreading you and Mastin just based on connections. I thought your initial interactions with me was scummy. For instance, you start out with a buddying accusation on me and later try to find other reasons for scumreading me. It feels like you are trying to come up with reasons to justify a read rather than organically developing them. It is possible that you are conf-biased town seeing more and more new reasons to confbias your original read but I don't think that that is the case. For one, I can tell you are a sharp player in general, possibly objective, and able to see through the surface level to find deeper motivations. That's what I gathered from the way you play. You insistence on calling me scummy with new reasons each time feel like opportunism.

But the other problem I have is that you created an imaginary dialogue with you and AP saying that you and Rancid buddying hard as scum while bussing Hawk is unlikely for you to do as scum as well as the you-AP back and forth but is it really? When Rancid was being wagoned, you, Rancid, and AP all worked really well in tandem to put in your best effort to derail the lynch. That fits in quite well with what you would do as scum. A pseudo-townbloc consisting of scum.

Yes and if you read Anytihng Goes, or any mastin game, you'd know that the odds of mastin bussing me to hell and back with us being scum/scum are reallllly low, bordering on not happening ever.

I think you and Mastin are quite capable of coming up with new interactions each time you are scum together. Do you feel that your interactions are so set in stone that you won't try a distancing tactic for once?

Is there anyone in particular you think needs time to read and/or generate content?

The Fox and The Hound, Nacho, RedGyarados, Clyton.

Tl;DR: Rancid was baiting BRO with trash talk. Tensions were high especially as a result. Is it REALLY alignment indicative to want to lynch someone a lot and be invested mroe because they are talking shit? Fuck no and F16 is sort of implying it is without saying it which is also crap.

I think you are simplifying. At some level you can argue that nearly everything is non-alignment indicative (if you are Thor). My point is that the way BRO reacted to Rancid and went after them felt genuine and I don't believe his reactions were faked.

Tl;DR: BRO didn't act like he did in wicked when getting lynched, but its justifiable. Ok, so? The point? That doesnt mean BRO is town at all.

Titan thought he could be scum because of the differing reactions. I explained why the circumstances were different enough that I am not chalking up the differences due to BRO being scum this time.

Tl;DR: BRO REALLY wanted to lynch RBD. Once again, not a fucking tell? Not by its own at least. This is more IIoA and while I tend to agree with his conclusion, his way of reaching it feels excessively drawn out because it looks better than simply stating that BRO's zeal felt town.

He really wanted to lynch RBD in a genuine way and the manner in which he went about it felt real. It is not just that he did it. It is possible that scum can get invested in the lynch of a townie. I am not saying it is impossible. I am saying I looked at the way BRO in particular invested himself and thought that it looked much, much more likely town than scum.

Tl;DR: This is not BRO from wicked, but his meltdown made sense because he was getting wagoned for no reason. Once again, this has no actual opinion in it. Just an enormous waffle stating that BRO being upset at being wagoned makes sense. Guess what? Scum get upset at being wagoned for shit reasons too! I know I have in pretty much all my scum games ever.

The incredulity that he was wagoned came from a justified feeling that he was right. He felt that the "right" thing to happen was for RBD to get lynched and all of a sudden, him getting lynched was startling. Scum do get frustrated at being caught for the wrong reasons. That's not what BRO's frustration looked like. He was frustrated at the

idea

that someone could think that he was scum more than any particular argument.

[CarbonFiber]

What exactly are you considering? If RBD were town, would it notably affect your reads / where would you go? It just seems so odd to me to fish for that information. That is partly because it never occurred to me anyone would know (except scum obv). I strongly doubt Mac could have been killed from anything other than scum, so I suppose I agree that they make sense as a town kill. My kneejerk reaction to that was to wonder why you didn't ask inside your neighborhood since the highest concentration of people scumreading RBD seem to be in there (Yggdra, JSU iirc). Instead you ask everyone which I dont quite get the motivation for to assume you have been wrong about your reads all this time despite having a very large conviction to the contrary.

I thought it would help the town if everyone knows RBD's affiliation. Given the state of the town currently, that would be a baseline through which people can connect on reads. If they are scum like I think they are, it would help a lot of people like Breakfast reset and work with others better, specifically the neighborhood for instance. On the chance that they are town, I would have to reset my reads considerably. Mastin is the biggest reset I'd make. I also wonder if Nacho was scum whiteknighting Rancid for the cred. He's done it before. I don't think anyone in the neighborhood knew Rancid's affiliation. We talked about it as soon as they flipped as janitored and it was apparent we were all in the dark.

I mean, opportunism? I think Im actually literally the only person in the thread with a scumread on you and have been since RBD fell off a cliff last night. Opportunism suggests that I am getting some sort of easy scum advantage for hedging an opinion on you, which Id love to hear what that could be cause I've mostly gotten flak from the entire player base (Mastin, JSU, you, others?) for my read on you that I ultimately just sort of stopped caring at the start of D2.

I was the one who originally scumread your predecessor and said that nothing you did was overwhelmingly town. It is not unlikely that you decided someone already scumreading you isn't a bad target to push. I don't think pushing me is making you more likely to be lynched. Some people (like Breakfast) say that it could be town. The town are not united in any particular direction so pushing an unlikely lynch is not a bad idea since you can continue to push them the next day and so on and look busy. It really depends on the gamestate. If the person you are pushing has their hands full (like I did with Mastin), then even better.

I have a hard time seeing your push coming from town because my posts have been genuine and transparent enough that my thought processes and motivation is obvious. I don't believe that you as a player would be unable to see the big picture and instead continue scumreading me because I ignored your posts etc. I think you are more discerning than that.

Ok, I'll admit its not "impossible" for us to do this as scum/scum, but why do you think its likely the case? You spent all D1 talking about how mastin and I were just creating noise and saying we were both scum with RBD. Im most certainly biased on the issue given that Im town and townreading both of those players, but I just have an extremely hard time seeing why someone would find this -likely-. Mastin has a fairly extensive history of not bussing and is proud of it. Im more sporadic, but I would never bus a buddy so hard when they are actually salvageable and when me bussing them could be the tipping point in a lynch.

Because I had independent scumreads on both of you. The way you both were trying to get out of scumreading each other and get PV lynched felt like you were setting the stage as unlikely partners while setting PV up. I agree that Mastin doesn't bus. I don't think you were bussing with intent to lynch and I felt then that it was more likely you intended everyone to dismiss it as TvT noise and lynch a lurker. After that Mastin pretty much pushed hard on you and I started to wonder if it was genuine or if it was a response to being called out on bussing. I also find it hard to believe that you staunchly believe in Mastin being town even after he pushed you and scumread you for it. You are writing him off as bad town consistently no matter how hard and prolonged the push has been today.

[CarbonFiber]

Except that you pretty actively refused to talk to me (and admittedly so) so you cant play this card that you are surprised I dont find you transparent. All I've seen from you is talking backandforth with Tammy and never updating your reads on anybody. You've actually admitted to having precisely 3 scumreads all game afaict (Me, mastin, RBD) and your townreads have been fairly static as well (the neighborhood and Tammy mostly).

RBD got upset because they asked you for pages to explain your scumreads and they kept getting upset that you WERENT and I agree with their take on that. So I really would not hold that you are transparent and I mean I guess I can see you thinking you are since everyone should be transparent to themself >.>. I think mastin looks pretty transparent this game.

I am strongly townreading Yggdra, Titan, and JSU, and to a lesser extent PV, Cupcake and Fox. I also have a weaker townreads on Orc and Breakfast but they are still solidifying. That leaves RG, Kagura, Clyton, Mastin, and you. And I think RBD was scum. Yeah, my reads have been more static than usual but that's just the way it has been this game.

My scumread on RBD was influenced by having a miller role and knowing that they claimed our role which was part of the reason I didn't have that much of an explanation for why I was scumreading them. I also thought their play was scummy but it is a matter of opinion. It seemed like their play was geared more towards creating apathy than genuinely trying to figure out the game. I went back and forth with Breakfast about this multiple times but they still seem to disagree.

Wow, I really am going to just heave this computer right out the window. Why should I scumread mastin just because she is pushing me? That is what you are actually admitting to doing on me I suppose, but wow. Being wrong is not a scumtell and I really think mastin has been fairly transparent, I mean shes basically using the thread as her personal blog which is anti-town and obnoxious, but it makes her feel really genuine.

Ok lets try this then. What are you still hoping to accomplish today / what has been accomplished today? Your reads seem 100% unchanged from halfway through D1. Mastin is a revolving door. Ffery is still waffling but has downgraded Bork to somewhere still above the lynch line. Why no vote?

I need to think more on my Mastin read but I am not seeing the blogging as something Mastin can't fake. I felt Mastin's initial attack on me was incredibly manipulative and scummy and that feeling still hasn't gone away but I am not as sure as I was before.

As to what I hope to accomplish, I want all my townreads to get on the same page and agree on lynching someone that we genuinely all agree is scum, and preferably not have a repeat of D1 with bad deadline wagons.

[CarbonFiber]

@ RedGyarados

:

I don't remember anything from Bro indicating the italicized portion. The issue I have with JSU is them hiding out in their neighborhood and not really bleeding anything into the game thread until AP showing up. And when AP did show up, Bro comes up with some half-assed reason to townread AP. I still don't like it but you guys say he's been town as shit in his neighborhood.

Notty still hasn't given me an opinion on what alignment he thinks RBD is (or some of the other slots for that matter, still don't think he's fully caught up), even though I gave him that assignment like 4 days ago. I was townreading RBD yesterday, and I don't think my opinion is going to change without a full reread (not happening anytime soon unless I feel like giving up my Friday for it) or the person with his alignment information comes forward (not something I'm interested in pursuing right now).

JSU have been more active since their slow entrance into the thread and have been increasingly vocal and active as time goes by. I do think that some of their intermediate thought processes and read progressions are hidden in the neighborhood but the trend has been towards more openness. I think more than AP's replacement, it was Rancid's response to their vote on them that spurred them into action.

This is one of the things that I brought up to Notty when he said he thought Nacho was scum. His reasoning is 90% spite for recent games (10% reasoning that I actually agree with). I just think Nacho is more likely to deflect onto easy mislynches when he's scum. The timing of the Orci wagon was terrible and something I don't think would have benefited town at all.

Do you think that his showing up near deadline makes him town or scum? Can you clarify this? I think in more recent games, Nacho has been whiteknighting townies a lot towards deadline. For instance in NY169 (I think this happened after you replaced out), he spent quite a bit of time defending both me and Varsoon-Mac hydra and then left and the deadline lynch was decided by the people who were online a few hours before deadline.

---
Brian's post resonates with me and re-inforces my townread. Posts like the following are good points:

I still stand by that comment, by the way (even if it's something I won't be giving any credence in the future). Although, it was more of me just removing GiF from my Day 1 lynch pool. I liked the way Pie came in and immediately pushed Mastin upon replacing in (and that was where my actual read came from, I'm pretty sure I stated something along these lines at the end of Day 1), but that's pretty much dissipated. I know Pie tunnels, but his lack of anything Day 2 aside from going after Mastin is dissipating my read on him.

I was townreading Pie for the same reasons and the read going stale is reasonable. BUT, he's still been town-town-town in the neighborhood so I guess you should just wait for him to return.

This is actually one of the things I brought up to Notty when I was catching him up about a week ago? We both agreed that you coming out of the gates and hard scumreading AP and AP to just continue townreading you was really weird. Especially after AG where he was gung-ho about lynching you for it.

I agree. I was scumreading Mastin at that time and I thought AP's reaction felt off which led me to think they might both be scum.

I'll revisit your case on him later. But it's kind of hard to agree with you when I've been agreeing with a lot of Mastin's and RBD's points this game.

What specifically? I had the opposite reaction to most of their posts.

Also, can you please get those Notty walls in thread. I'd love to see where you guys are at.

I'd like details on what's actually going on in that neighborhood of yours. It's annoying me that I can't see it and I want to know what Nacho's been up to in there.

Give me specifics on what you want details on. There's about 20 pages in there. I explained my read on BRO-Desp read in that wall. I am actually unsure about my read on Nacho-Bork and they haven't posted a lot in there. It is mostly me, BRO-Desp, and PieInFreezer.

Regarding people you won't miss (Kagura, Clyton, PV, Cupcake), I would miss the last two quite a bit but I am unsure about the first two. Also, you seemed to disagree with Mastin quite a bit in your wall. How does that affect your read on him?

[CarbonFiber]

Why are these townreads? PV I can almost see. His frustration with mastin at places made me waver on my read a bit (although Im concerned I just WANT to agree with it). I havent read too much of PV v Tammy in depth Today although I dont see why PV would necessarily stick his neck out like that if he didn't have to.

Panda though? Why panda?

I explained my Panda read to PV a while ago but you said you didn't like it because it was based on meta. I doubt you'll like it now because it is still based on meta.

[CarbonFiber]

Players claiming to be doing NKA and to some extent VCA are liars if they don't take that into consideration for their read on me. 'Cause that?
Is not some trivial fucking statistic. That is extremely relevant to the whole core of the game.

Mastin, while I disagree that the reads of dead players who are familiar with you should be trusted (I've said the same thing as both town and scum so HMMMM), actually attacking people for not agreeing with you is pretty ridiculous.

also in case it wasn't clear, the uh???? was in reference to you not wanting to intereact with mastin at all this day phase while simultaneously believing that sorting mastin is the key to unlocking the gamestate fypov

I feel really similar to ffery to be fair. I mean theoretically I should be reading mastin's posts closely/interacting with her so I can either decide that I agree with Ceph's recent town thoughts about her or confirm my scumread so I can better discuss the read with Ceph, but am I actually going to do that? I don't think so.

I think with mastin it's gotten to the point (at least in my mind) where there's just SO MUCH posting and a lot of it to me feels like what I would expect from scum, but a lot of it also feels like it could be from town and makes me doubt my read. Being my almost-zero-confidence self I don't know whether or not I should be trusting that, and with all the conflicting content, trying to figure out whether it's scum faking town-ness but slipping up at times, or just me calling things scummy that aren't, has become such a chore that I'm pretty done with it myself. Obviously the confidence thing doesn't apply to everyone, but not really being up to interacting with Mastin is completely understandable imo and I think some of the above may be reasons for others as well.

Ceph has other obligations at the moment and I won't push a vote without him unless I feel that it becomes necessary, but where

I

am at is that I have a legitimate scumread on Cupcake which I'd probably be more ok with lynching now than I was when I voted, but I'd also be quite willing to lynch Mastin. Obviously Ceph thinks Mastin's town though and I haven't heard back from him about the former so I don't know where we'll end up.

What are the rest of your reads looking like at the moment? Also, have you played with Cupcake/Katsuki before?

[CarbonFiber]

Another concern I had about Mastin was that his whole development into the town leader persona felt like he was telling a narrative about himself which was the same thing he did in ETL's resistance where I was scum with him.

[CarbonFiber]

Another concern I had about Mastin was that his whole development into the town leader persona felt like he was telling a narrative about himself which was the same thing he did in ETL's resistance where I was scum with him.

That was where part of my resolve that he was scum at the time started to falter. (I wasn't joking when I told Pere my read on him has changed every five minutes.) But I was like would he, as scum, construct this whole narrative?

Yeah, scum love noise. But wouldn't he create a narrative? He has in the past:

I quite like the narrative that I built.

You might be thinking about the narrative showing a masterful RC-SC-DS scumteam. But I'm not talking about that narrative. That narrative, while masterful, is not the true piece of artwork, here. I've told a story, here, a story that involves that story, and that story, that masterful piece of writing I consider to be a piece of art, which I worked hard and long to tell? Is the story of Me. Mastin. Slowly but progressively. Growing back into being me. You can see the narrative grow over time.

The posts start out random, with little order to them. Guesswork. Fragmentations. Representing my broken mind. But as the narrative of my catch-up continues, you progressively can find me growing back into my role. I slowly find a direction. The pieces become more focused. I begin to hone in on things. And then, I make a discovery. A discovery that in a game would cause me to "flip the switch", and from there, I go into top-form. With everything being right on the point. Everything tying together. Instead of being the story, I begin to tell a story of my own. (Thus, why the RC-SC-DS scumteam story is part of the narrative, but isn't the entirety of it.)

And at the end, there's the realization. That I've grown. That I'm back. That I am who I am meant to be. That I've gone from the slums and picked myself back up, into the person I really am.



...And THAT, my friends, is why I'm a storyteller. (I love writing. ) Most people seem to think you can only tell a story in certain mediums, like a book, like a movie, like a comic. Maybe in a game from the flavor side of things. But me? I can tell a story INSIDE the game, entirely separated from whatever flavor there is. I told the story of RC-SC-DS, but that story is within the story I created of ME.

And I think that's where the true skill of me comes in as a player. In that while other players can see individual "characters" involved...I can see the entire "story" of a game play out in my mind.

It might seem confusing, but it's really awesome once you grasp the concepts I'm talking about.

[CarbonFiber]

I'm almost ready to have another go at this.

It looks from these two pages like PV is scum.

Can you elaborate on this?

[CarbonFiber]

@ PeregrineV

,

PeregrineV, I am unsure about Clyton but I am strongly townreading Titan and I don't think that their neighborhood activity is alignment relevant. For one, they've only had the neighborhood starting on D2 whereas we've had the neighborhood from D1 and had lots of time to talk through things. Also, for most of the time that Titan/Clyton neighborhood has been active, Clyton was on V/LA, Tammy busy, and I don't think Arthur checked in for a long time so I wouldn't read too much into it.

So, if you can explain your townread source on TammyTitan, I'd appreciate it.

I have been townreading Titan since D1 and it is mostly gut + feeling + meta. You seemed to have a townread too earlier so we are in agreement there. I'll address your concerns in this post.

- I don't expect all neighborhoods to function the same way so I don't see anything concerning about them claiming in their neighborhood while we didn't in ours.

- The secondary arc that Titan was referring to was about subtexts of the game rather than votes on Breakfast. For example, accusatory questioning might mean that the questioner wants to sort a scumread or is scum trying to position towards "scumreading" a player. It is more the nature of questioning directed towards Breakfast than the number of votes on them.

- I don't believe that not wanting to answer questions has scum motivation especially as Titan has been engaging you. I think when you asked them in an abrasive manner (you are defacating), people would be less inclined to answer them seriously. Trying a different approach would probably help more.

[CarbonFiber]

Desperado hasn't been present enough to really get a feel there, not that I'm great at reading desperado anyway.

I am, trust me (for now).

Do you feel that MastinSSK's scumflip will influence your read on JSU?

[CarbonFiber]

Falcon - you seriously read PV as town? Really?

Like really?

What differences do you see in his play that weren't in the Board Game uPick that could point to PV-scum here?

[CarbonFiber]

Ffery opinion would help as well (and anyone else that was in that game).

[CarbonFiber]

My read on JSU is all over the place. It's what inspired the JSU!town wall from falcon. There are some things consistent with his town game such as discussing positionals or at least are consistent with how I've seen him scum hunt and what he talked about in the Wicked dead qt. But there are some things that are off that I can't quite put my finger on, including the melt down, which now I'm bringing up again and it makes me feel like shit to even question if it was real and if it was I'm going to feel like the most horrible person ever, but it conflicts with

I don't have a thought process. I have an inarticulate jumble I'm trying to untangle. I could post walls of paranoia and free association but I don't think this game thread needs it.

You guys can poke at me all you like. I doubt it will speed up what has become a Sisyphean effort at sifting out my thoughts about this game.

This would be extremely helpful actually. This game needs a fresh perspective and I'd much rather read a wall from someone who has been cagey for a while now as opposed to more walling from the usual wallers (Mastin/AP).

[CarbonFiber]

Why is Pie confining himself to the neighborhood? Where is he? He had a decently strong start then zippo.

And you're probably right, I don't really trust your neighborhood.

It feels like wingate mansion when empire had his neighborhood with all scum, but he was shutting down any suspicion on them because they were so town and proactive in the neighborhood. When we came to massclaim Mara even tried to assert that the neighborhood didn't need to claim. It felt like different games were being played there too because their neighborhood was so weirdly played except we only had night talk in the neighborhoods there, so it's probably making it worse here.

Pie said in the neighborhood that he was falling behind and would come back and push for more votes on Mastin if they stopped coming.

Btw, I am adding Wingate Mansion to my to-read-in-detail list. I am still trying to parse through this and figure out how to communicate it all because I know where you are coming from not only with Wingate but I can also see how people in the Wicked neighborhood thought that Nacho and I were town and shut down suspicion at times from people outside.

In any case, it doesn't seem like we are lynching Desp-BRO or PV anyways so it should be more apparent later.

Which, if AP is town, makes his observation a reasonable one. There's no one else in the game thread you're that amicable with.

Maybe. But after that back-and-forth with Bulbazak in that Micro game, I have an aversion towards interacting with players that I can sense will create a lot of noise if interacted with and too little content. But that was a Micro game and I don't care as much about getting into wall wars in smaller games.

then why are you interacting with me when it looks like I'm not going to produce much useful content toDay?

I have no idea how to answer a question like this or from what context you are bringing it up. I think I at least want all the active players on the same page as me (outside of the neighborhood, this is you, Titan, to some extent PV, and those in the neighborhood, I'm just interacting with them there). I have been trying to sync with the inactives as well when they show up but that's not very often. Like I said, if you are town, I want you on my side.

If I'm scum with Rancid, we keep our fucking strongest scum player alive during the night, not make them vanish overnight, exposing me to attack with nobody (aside from Mac, who ended up dead) to defend me.

I wondered what if they are not actually dead but may return to the game and vanishing for a day is a scum ability? But yeah, if you and Rancid are scum together, I don't think in most cases, you would want them janitored and that's not my issue.

I had a town read on bork and I kept it all of day 1. The deadline danse macabre made me worry about nacho, but it's really hard to see him calling attention to himself so blatantly, like in that string of posts where every post was a back and forth vote between two players. He could have redirected the lynch without making nearly such a spectacle.

In what ways did you find it markedly different from NY169?

[CarbonFiber]

Ffery opinion would help as well (and anyone else that was in that game).

One obvious difference between the games is that he wasn't basically trolling another player in the board game mini.

However the peregrine/titan wall-war started in this game, IMO that's what it's become, with a little trolling on both sides.

I don't recall seeing him do this in any game ever tbh, regardless of alignment. I've seen him hare off after will-o-the-wisps. I've seen him follow an unraveled thread into a dark cul de sac. I've seen him lurk and put basically zero in the way of solid reads into games. As scum, from the few games I've seen, he's more likely to pick a popular scum read and agree. As town he tilts at windmills if the notion takes him.

In the board game, despite winding up in some arguments with tammy-hadrian, he didn't tunnel and he wound up with a town read overall. I think morph-me was his strongest scum read in that game.

My read on PV isn't based on meta very much but I did follow Dark Age of The Law where he was scum with Nacho. He was mostly picking on low hanging fruit at that time. I was hard-scumreading CandleJack and felt PV was sort of moving in sync with him at times. I'll go back and check to see all the advice Nacho gave him just to be sure.

[CarbonFiber]

Was just getting to that.

[CarbonFiber]

Falcon - What did you think of nacho's posting today?

I thought his push on Mastin was good, but not outside anything scum-Nacho can't fake. He makes good points. I like 4213.

The "

I don't think Rancid was scum but Mastin is

" is an unconventional idea that resonated at some level because not many brought up that idea before but it does make sense if Muffin had a misread and Mastin was milking it for everything it's worth (and of course I buy that Mastin wouldn't janitor him). He'd want Muffin to flip town.

His response in 4391 to the 1v1 was pretty awesome as well. He hit the core of what I am having issues with Mastin about. He is thinking past the kind of tells that he would be expected to use.

I like his posting but there is so little of it so I wouldn't bank the game on it. What are you thinking?

[CarbonFiber]

Ok. I want to be correct. It's not enough to be town. It's not enough to be on another town player(s) side. That's not how games are won.

You and Tammy earlier talked about me being arrogant in other games about my reads and not listening to other players' opinions. I think that was an oversimplification but putting that aside look at your own play in this game.

There's nothing fundamentally WRONG with the way apparently town players have some strongly differing reads and concepts of how the game is unfolding. You want to push a consensus lynch today, but there's really no guarantee that a bunch of town players getting together with scum in their midst are going to come up with the right consensus answer. And that's not really what you want. What you want is for town to follow your lynch answer.

I probably should trust your reads more than I do, but there's something off about this game and I'm wondering if it has something to do with the effect of such a large neighborhood. You could all be town. you may very well all be town. But it's creating a gap in the game data.

I agree that there isn't anything wrong with having differing opinions and there is nothing fundamentally wrong with town misreading town. I just don't want those people that I think are town to be lynched especially if I have at least some confidence in that read. And I'm generally protective of players I am townreading and would go to huge lengths to defend them.

I

obviously

want my scumreads lynched but I am still trying to build consensus (or at least that's how I am viewing it from my side). I'm still glad you pointed this out openly because I much prefer that than seeing you bottle it up and it showing through your posts subliminally and me not understanding why you are being cagey/snappish without seeing your side. I'd appreciate it if you point out what of my play you didn't think was helpful or how you think I could change my approach.

I wasn't calling you arrogant in your reads. I just felt that the formal separation of town to work with and not work with feels more like shutting people out which causes more frustration and limits consensus building.

[CarbonFiber]

I like his posting but there is so little of it so I wouldn't bank the game on it. What are you thinking?

He replaced Kagura. How has his posting in the neighborhood changed?

I know. Nacho's posting even in the hydra was very sparse.

He didn't post a lot in the neighborhood more than a few passing comments. Most of his analysis was in-thread. He did post a list of reads a long while ago D1 but they are probably outdated.

[CarbonFiber]

Unfortunately, apparently, I've lost all capabilities of even pretending to look like I'm scumhunting this game, so you'll have to excuse the apparent drooling I'm doing in this post instead of giving you thoughts on this game (probably a little passive-aggressive of me right now)

I liked that first post of Nacho's it's why I unvoted him. I like that there's some passion there, but BUT he was able to display it in Wicked at points pretty well though being the mod could make me view things in a different light. However, I really liked his red-text wall about wanting Mastin dead.

Now, do I think he's capable of it, sure. I guess. I watched the way he went after Mina and though I think that he hit the robotic notes very very often in that game, he was able to channel some real passion here and there. I think the most telling aspect of that is that mollie/bert was so dumbfounded by your slot and was mostly scum reading you and not Nacho. Anyway that's how it looked from the outside.

But, my biggie rhymes to nacho were a sign that I was town reading him. It's not completely solid, but I feel pretty decent about it, and I was wondering what level of faking you thought he could do with an inside glimpse of his scum game.

(There's a couple town tells I believe I see in his behavior, and none of the objective scum tells I've picked up. Though I do *think* it's possible for him to fake the town tells, I'm thinking probably not. AT LEAST FOR NOW.)

What I got from my inside glimpse is that Nacho as scum focusses more on looking town early game and doing what he would do as town and changing that slowly later on and opportunistically planning pushes to serve a scum agenda. I remembered that he asked me not to push on Mina early because she had an analytical and eloquent playstyle that I would not dislike if I had been town and that my early pushes felt unnatural for that reason and I'd more naturally scumread people like Chamber/CES if I was town because of a more cagey/close-to-the-chest playstyle.

His later push on Mina for not scumreading him based on the earlier push felt opportunistic and didn't really resonate (but I was viewing it through a lens of knowing he was scum so I don't know how well I would catch it if I were town).

The biggest reason I questioned his affiliation in NY169 was that everything he did felt unnaturally "right" and all the reasons he gave for his big reads list were the reasons that were deemed good by popular consensus. I'm not sure how much you followed it after you got nk'd but he townread me for townreading Ffery for attacking him because we had both agreed that it was valid. His reads were based on popular reasons. Here, he feels more like the brazen, doesn't-give-a-crap about popular consensus type Nacho I saw in Z-Mafia.

[CarbonFiber]

Pere, no the neighborhood is still open and we can talk now. I'm saying Nacho's posting was sporadic. I didn't initially like his posts but townread him due to Bork but I like his most recent ones in thread.

[CarbonFiber]

What if Mastin's actually town though and Nacho is using the suspicion on Mastin to get a lynch?

AP would be scum in that case discrediting everything Mastin says but wanting to look good on a Mastin townflip.

It would fit in with Mastin's role at least and explain some of the movements that have been going around the game. AP insisting that Mastin/AP bussing is a bad conclusion for me to draw might mean that he knows it is the wrong conclusion. I doubt scum would show so blatantly in thread that they got all bent out of shape when correctly called as bussing.

It is probably less likely than Mastin-scum, Nacho-town but still.

It is 1:30 AM and I am rambling. I should go to bed.

[CarbonFiber]

Mastin, is it completely impossible that Muffin as scum had a "townread" on you and helped you make all the pushes you made so that he could look good to you? What makes you so certain that they were town?

Your unmoving read on them is one of the things that concern me since I feel pretty good about them scum for the most part. I don't think their attacks on me, JSU, Fox, or Titan were at all convincing. I didn't like their push on me after claiming miller and later retraction, the challenge to gladiate JSU, the response to Fox's Disney vote on them, and Nati's post to Tammy were wierd and the way he approached his read on her didn't make sense.

[CarbonFiber]

I want to talk to someone about Clyton. He is the nullest of null-reads to me.

[CarbonFiber]

Nacho, what are your thoughts?

[CarbonFiber]

Nacho is online (or so I thought). I felt like having instantaneous discussion. What are you thinking?

[CarbonFiber]

Also, Tammy said as much as she wanted to say about him. I doubt that would change until he shows up again.

[CarbonFiber]

I thought that his "you'll have to depend on investigation to read me" post during day 1 looked like town confidence. I could go all "oh shit godfather", but IME that kind of comment comes from town a lot more often than scum.

Late day 1, the cracks in the emotionless exterior bothered me. His response, which I thought boiled down to "yeah but it's part of my master plan to show cracks in the exterior in this circumstance" also bothered me.

There's not much to do about further sorting him when he's absent.

Do you think he shouldn't be reading you as town based on the differences between your playstyles? How do you think he came off in his interactions with Mastin earlier today?

[CarbonFiber]

So, about an hour ago when I started catching up the read card on mastin changed to town. An hour later and now it's at hellifino.

My kitten turned a year old today though, you should all partake in the festivities!

She has hit my mafia weakness though, that's for sure!

Beli's mastin scumread has softened too.

Our major ah ha over the last 24 or so hours is that we have 3 bet the farm town reads. I'm starting to think about what scum have to work with when most of town is towning it up, or at least staying well within their town envelopes.

And they are?

[CarbonFiber]

im proud as fuck at this game

So am I! Thoughts about that game cheer me up whenever I am starting to get a little annoyed at this one.

[CarbonFiber]

I want to talk to someone about Clyton. He is the nullest of null-reads to me.

The start of my town-read on him came from 2208.

From there, his posts seem more townish than scum, especially given the state of *other* gameposts.

I can go back through and read again, but since he's not here to answer stuff it'll just be my opinions.

The replica point is actually good but I am not sure what to say of his overall play. His reaction to Rancid being cc'd was to... vote the cc'er.

[CarbonFiber]

I agree

Nacho, please take the game by the horns and help me solve it. And since you are not checking in to the neighborhood, do it here.

[CarbonFiber]

I need to read through Clyton. I remember a post where he asked to be tossed into the ring but I legitimately can't remember another thing about him because his posting is so boring.

Almost as boring as Brian's. Why do you spoiler your posts again?

Why don't you like Brian-posts? I thoughts they were cool.

[CarbonFiber]

One of the reasons RG is town:

Brian Skies pegging me as scum in Attack on Titan:

Anyhow, where is the Falcon from mentor/mentee that could see the town motivation in Dr. D's and Slimer's posts? I'm not getting that here. All I see is over-defensive OMGUSing Falcon.

Brian Skies posts about me here:

Although it does seem weird for a player to take a hard analytical look at a slot like PV's like this, this is exactly something I'd expect from Falcon after the micro I played with him (where he was arguably hard townreading the two lynchbait that game). It does strike some interest for both of them to be townreading each other early on (especially if one of them is scum), but it's highly likely that they're just both townreading each other (and this is what I'm leaning towards right now).

He knows he has a pretty good tell on me based on that game and he went back and checked my read on PV to make sure it makes sense before figuring out that this matched up with my town play. Sure, I could be faking it because I know Brian used that against me in AoT but I don't think I would be playing to manipulate Brian in this playerlist and I think Brian knows that. It fits exactly with how I'd expect him to read me. Also, his hesitance about BRO townreading me makes sense as well. I thought his reasoning (at least with regards to me was well-thought out).

[CarbonFiber]

im proud as fuck at this game

So am I! Thoughts about that game cheer me up whenever I am starting to get a little annoyed at this one.

Hey, do you wanna hydra with me sometime in the future when you are back from your mafia break.

[CarbonFiber]

im proud as fuck at this game

So am I! Thoughts about that game cheer me up whenever I am starting to get a little annoyed at this one.

Hey, do you wanna hydra with me sometime in the future when you are back from your mafia break.

I would love to!

Awesome.

*Waits for Pidgeon to call me scum*

[CarbonFiber]

I need to read through Clyton. I remember a post where he asked to be tossed into the ring but I legitimately can't remember another thing about him because his posting is so boring.

Almost as boring as Brian's. Why do you spoiler your posts again?

Why don't you like Brian-posts? I thoughts they were cool.

They are kinda cool, yeah. Just boring

So, what's your read there?

[CarbonFiber]

GIFPie, DespBRO and Orcinus. Beli's actually more bet the farm about Orcinus than I was before we talked.

That's unexpected.

[CarbonFiber]

I have some peripheral town reads, but a complete and total lack of scum reads yes. There are things that bother me about players, but nothing that I've gone aha that's scum!

This is part of my hesitation in scumreading weaker players in this game. I feel like this wouldn't be the sort of gamestate we would be in if the scum were mostly less active or less skilled players.

[CarbonFiber]

I have some peripheral town reads, but a complete and total lack of scum reads yes. There are things that bother me about players, but nothing that I've gone aha that's scum!

This is part of my hesitation in scumreading weaker players in this game. I feel like this wouldn't be the sort of gamestate we would be in if the scum were mostly less active or less skilled players.

What? Tammy is saying she doesnt have clearly defined scumreads and you are agreeing with her?

I think you have the opposite problem.

I am talking about the state of this game. Do you think we would be here if the scumteam was PV, Orc, RG, etc?

[CarbonFiber]

I have some peripheral town reads, but a complete and total lack of scum reads yes. There are things that bother me about players, but nothing that I've gone aha that's scum!

This is part of my hesitation in scumreading weaker players in this game. I feel like this wouldn't be the sort of gamestate we would be in if the scum were mostly less active or less skilled players.

What I feel like is that there is this central core and a periphery, and the central core is unstable but I don't know what part is if that makes sense.

It's why I keep thinking that even though I don't have Mastin as definite scum, lynching him anyway might be best for the town. Partly due to the distraction element, and due to all the offshoots that are hard to feel one way or the other about. But I'm also concerned about the fallout for town if Mastin is town.

so yeah i'm all kdfjgad;jhgfio;dhgiohfgikjfdhgkjdfhnuo

By "central core" and "periphery," are you referring to the active vs inactive players or something else?

What would the fallout be if Mastin flips town?

[CarbonFiber]

I never expect to last long as scum either so I work on many of the same parts of the game during the day.

But one thing my first mafia mentor tried to get me to focus on was who I wanted around at mylo/lylo and to figure out what I could do to make that happen. What I'm probably most weak on, though, is seeing what the best final configuration actually is. Fortunately, I don't usually have full controll of that because the game usually evolves in unexpected directions.

CF, in the Wicked game you were hydraing with one of the best players I've seen at making scum stone soup out of a tough list of townies. Thoughts on how you would be applying some of that to this game if you were scum?

I talked earlier about how Nacho and I planned our pushes, trying to sort out which ones would feel natural and which ones don't. My scumplans usually depend on the playerlist and who my partners are. I think the ideal is to survive and win but I always try to make contingency plans. For instance in Wicked, Malakittens, Nacho and I set it up for 5P LYLO as if it was one of {Mala, NotScience}, or {Nacho & me, CES & Fenchurch hydras} so that even if one of us went down, the other would win 3P LYLO. One of the plans I am proud of being involved in because all three of us worked it out so that there is no way we could lose. I think if I had scumbuddies that were really good but weren't partnered with me as a hydra in the same slot, I'd spend more of an effort to create fake interactions but considering the team in Wicked, most of my initial planning went into making our slot survive and getting Cabd and Penguin (and later Mina) to townread us. Cabd probably hates me for it.

[CarbonFiber]

The central core as I see it are: Mastin, AP, desbro, you, stalin with a little pie and me added in for flavor.

The periphery is everyone else.

If Mastin flipped town my reads on desbro, nacho, pie and maybe you might feel in flux. That might be because of neighborhood, but I would be looking at all of you cross-eyed trying to figure out which one of you were scum pulling everyone's strings.

How do you feel AP fits into this? Do you have a read on him now?

[CarbonFiber]

CF: I think the game state is whatever it is because you/tammy/ffery are talking about peripheral things and waffling back and forth forever. Mastin 2 for that matter. No one is pursuing scum reads just getting paranoid about I can't even tell what. Phone post

And making plans as scum beyond a day or 2 out is silly because of course things will go unexpectedly. At ffery: the direction is pretty much mastin getting lynched. There has been no other direction.

I probably waffled very little this game, particularly my pushing the Rancid wagon was probably tunneling. I'm considering the possibilities of course, as in "what if Mastin is town" because the last time I did that when I suspected him, I ended up realizing he was in fact town.

And "peripheral things" aren't all that bad if they help read the other person tonally and get a feel for them. I am much more averse to back-and-forths where two people scumread each other but that's probably just me.

[CarbonFiber]

And making plans as scum beyond a day or 2 out is silly because of course things will go unexpectedly. At ffery: the direction is pretty much mastin getting lynched. There has been no other direction.

my vote sometimes has electromagnetic effects.

makes me cautious about using it.

which is to say I think that beli and I could probably break that wagon if we had a better idea where we should vote. And since we've grown less comfortable about voting Mastin we're struggling with what next and if it makes sense to eventually put our vote there with misgivings.

So, you are basically saying that you could lead a counterwagon to Mastin if you want but aren't sure if you want to? If he's scum, you probably could. That's part of the reason I am still scumreading Rancid is that their wagon was harder to push despite a more prolonged and sustained push than counterwagons like Orc and I think scum would want to push the wagon that is not on them.

[CarbonFiber]

Timing mattered. So did a divided town. wagons are sometimes more volatile near deadline.

Who were the scum pushing the orci wagon?

If I am right about Mastin/Rancid/AP being scum, then they are the scum that helped derail the wagon and were happy to "work" with townies who wanted a different wagon, not so much in the way of votes but more of influencing the direction of the lynch with their voice. This makes any counterwagon much easier to push than Rancid themselves. Not that they pushed Orc in particular but helped push those multiple other wagons along with you and Nacho. In that way, forming a counterwagon is obviously easy. And it will be easy today (for you or anyone else) to form a counterwagon to Mastin at deadline depending on who the target is.

I think it has to do with players like Mastin or Rancid being active and polarizing that people form strong opinions on them. If enough people read them as hard town (which hapenned with Rancid), even if a bunch of people read them as hard scum, they will be difficult to lynch because the people strong-townreading them would go for

any

wagon that is not them with the intention of saving them as opposed to pushing a particular lynch of their choice. It can be advantageous as scum to be polarizing as opposed to being universally townread and Rancid certainly were. I think it is possible for town to be polarizing figures. I just don't know if that is the case here.

Do you think the nature of how the wagon formed says anything about Rancid's alignment?

[CarbonFiber]

The central core as I see it are: Mastin, AP, desbro, you, stalin with a little pie and me added in for flavor.

The periphery is everyone else.

If Mastin flipped town my reads on desbro, nacho, pie and maybe you might feel in flux. That might be because of neighborhood, but I would be looking at all of you cross-eyed trying to figure out which one of you were scum pulling everyone's strings.

How do you feel AP fits into this? Do you have a read on him now?

I don't know. I don't have a town read on him. The only thing I do think is that his role could be town, but cabd!game.

I have no idea whatsoever how to read AP. How is desp/bro reading him?

BRO is townreading him, Desp is scumreading him.

[CarbonFiber]

I think that assuming a wagon that doesn't form easily is a wagon on scum is a dangerous assumption.

I know but I wasn't saying that in a vacuum but considering the circumstances.

Except Mastin and RBD were BOTH trying to get me lynched so this point is just weird.

I didn't get the feeling that they genuinely wanted you lynched but that's debatable.

---

I just felt like the general idea being pushed that there is no direction besides Mastin's lynch was a bit inaccurate. It is actually too easy to push in a different direction.

[CarbonFiber]

NO PROBLEM.

/mod replace me.

Are you actually serious?

[CarbonFiber]

i have no clue what your problem is but ok tammy

carbonfibre: clyton scum?

-o

No idea. Will probably wait to see what he comes up with when he finds time to catch up with this game.

[CarbonFiber]

carbonfibre: clyton scum?

-o

What are you thinking?

[CarbonFiber]

i'm not thinking anything. was curious about you

i'm still sitting at mastin scum, and i have another scumread i'm keeping my eyes on for now

clyton hasn't been on my mind at all

Who's the other scumread? And do you have any solid townreads?

[CarbonFiber]

I just told you what I thought of Clyton's posts. Read my thoughts on him for the last few pages. And no, I haven't formed a read there yet which is why I was asking about your thoughts.

[CarbonFiber]

Orc, I am not going to quote my ISO. We'll discuss the read after you catch up if you want.

[CarbonFiber]

f-16. take a break from a robot and beg tammy to return w/me please

I did this once and I'll do it again Tammy.

I will fill this page with fluff about you and your adorable kitten.

I will drive AP up the wall, then the ceiling, then the opposite wall and back on the floor again until the only thing he wants to do is lynch me.

[CarbonFiber]

Me too.

This alone should be a cause for return.

[CarbonFiber]

I'm glad you are back. Many kittens were spared from being kicked.

Nacho feels town-town-town-town-town during this whole thing.

[CarbonFiber]

Clyton, can you explain your reads?

[CarbonFiber]

You're replacing out?

[CarbonFiber]

That's all right. Hope it turns out okay.

I struck me as odd that you have no actual scumreads but want to policy lynch one of three players that you apparently have as the weakest town. Why such a strategy?

As for your other reads, if you can give a short explanation it will be nice but it is up to you. Hopefully, your replacement will be easier to read than you.

[CarbonFiber]

Clyton, that makes as much as sense as an insect flavored Frappuccino but I've given up on trying to read or understand you especially since you are going to be replaced so it is irrelevant.

[CarbonFiber]

Hi Penguin,
Showing me that you are town-town-town if you are would be an amazing start. This is F-16 btw. Quick summary of my thoughts: I think Mastin and AP are scum, and the dead and janitored Rancid is scum. I have a neighborhood with Yggdra Union, Just Sheep Us and Nacho, the first two of which I would bet the game on are town. I lean town on Nacho.

D1, Rancid claimed miller, I cc'd them and pushed a wagon on them. Nacho derailed it on the day of the deadline but they got vigged anyways. Pie, BRO-Desp, Nacho, and I have been pushing Mastin as being scum. Tammy and ffery are waffling every 2 posts about Mastin's affiliation. AP thinks he is town but Mastin thinks AP is scum which I found wierd. Mastin also is voteless until LYLO.

[CarbonFiber]

Oh, I

think

your slot is probable scum through POE although I don't have an actual read at all because your predecessor is an enhanced version of a robot that made as much sense as one. But I

hope

that you are town and I have my fingers crossed really hard.

[CarbonFiber]

The central core as I see it are: Mastin, AP, desbro, you, stalin with a little pie and me added in for flavor.

The periphery is everyone else.

If Mastin flipped town my reads on desbro, nacho, pie and maybe you might feel in flux. That might be because of neighborhood, but I would be looking at all of you cross-eyed trying to figure out which one of you were scum pulling everyone's strings.

This struck my interest the more I thought about it. Why are those the players the ones that you would be looking at if Mastin flipped scum as opposed to any other player in the game? For pushing the lynch?

That doesn't make sense and Desp said in the neighborhood that he feels like you might be setting them up which makes me somewhat paranoid. I won't go as far as that but something about what Clyton said made me think it is possible scum are setting people up upon Mastin's townflip.

I'd expect town-you to read me and Nacho independent of others. Okay, I figure Nacho is a good scum player that may be able to fool you and you might want to double-check it with other flips but you know me and my playstyle enough that I am not sure why Mastin's flip would influence your read on me at all. And you know my play is massively different from AoT and Wicked. I am not sure how you think I could have played well enough to fool

you

of all people in this game while simultaneously sucking enough in Wicked that you say in the dead thread you'd add me to the list of people who suck as scum.

[CarbonFiber]

f des is stupidly concerned about something, say it fucking here. Stop only doing lame ass shit in the neighborhood and bring it out in the fucking open.

This is my entire problem with your neighborhood and why I can't feel good about a town read on any of you. Why the hell is he filtering stupid shit through you when he can ask me himself???

Desp supposedly has me as town. You supposedly have me as town so what the fuck with this crap? It makes not a lick of sense because that's not even how I operate as scum. And since I say, and it's clear through the way I've been reading this game the whole time, I'd be looking at you all crosseyed trying to figure out which one of you was scum pulling strings because that's how it would look to me, you're like oh you're lining up lynches.

Like this question and how you're reacting to it makes no sense in the context of everything else I've said in this game. And I mean, gosh, why don't you wait to see if that happens? Mastin might very well be scum which makes all my worries for naught. My concern that there's strings being pulled only happens if Mastin is town.

I am reading you independent of others and that's not what that means. It means I am worried there is scum in your neighborhood. I don't know who though. You understood my issues with the neighborhood before so I have no clue what this is.

But seriously, why can't des come out here like a big boy and raise this problem himself?!?

I am the one bringing it up because

I

was the one that got paranoid about what Desp brought up in the neighborhood. I don't know why he didn't bring it up yet but I suppose he will when he gets back on. He's not filitering it through me. I asked you because I want to hear your thoughts in depth.

Even forgetting what Desp said, you never had trouble reading me easily before and I thought my alignment was obvious here even if you didn't trust the rest of the neighborhood. I understood your issues with the rest of the neighborhood and I understand them now. I still feel my own thoughts and body of work at least is above the level of what I could fake.

[CarbonFiber]

OOOOOOOH How dare you think one of us might be scum if Mastin flips town. HOW DARE YOU!

That's not even what I meant, Tammy. This game is killing me with paranoia and I wanted to make sure I could rely on at least one person to mutually read me and me them with certainty outside of the neighborhood.

[CarbonFiber]

What the hell just happened?

Tammy, all you are saying is that if Mastin is town, you think someone pushing her is scum, right?

I dont see why that is an egregious opinion if thats what it is. PV could easily be scum on that. Magenta could be although I oscillate about Orci.

Nice try trying to interject yourself in to look good.

[CarbonFiber]

Falcon - go read everything I've said about you. I've consistently said I'd be surprised if you were scum. I've also consistently said that I think I should have you stronger town than I do. I also said last night that part of why I might be hesitant is that you could have learned from hydraing with nacho while scum.

I've never said oh hey falcon's scum! I just don't know why you're going all paranoid on me for something that should be really clear since we've already discussed my distrust of your neighborhood.

I don't know why you're not trying to see where I'm coming from. I also don't know why you're getting after me about things you can't fake while there's a number of things I can't fake that shouldn't cause you doubt.

And I lost my train of thought. Blame skype people!

It's nothing to really worry about until mastin flips anyway. I mean sure there could be scum in your neighborhood regardless, but my paranoid looking at you guys cross-eyed certain there's string pulling in there really only occurs if Mastin's town, and then can you blame me?

And then, geeze, it's not like I'm leading lynches this game. And my main suspects from your neighborhood have been nacho/despbro this game anyway.

I know you are reading me as town. I was probably worried about nothing. It's just that with how all the people positioning themselves against a Mastin lynch (Clyton, AP) that I started wondering if Mastin is in fact town. Desp brought up that you could be scum along with Clyton/AP I repeatedly told him that it was a dumb idea and that I could read you pretty well and I am confident you are town and pointed out all the town things you did that you can't or are very unlikely to fake. I pointed out that if you were scum, you scumgame would have to have improved by miles. We continued talking about it more and I started getting paranoid enough that I wanted to talk to you about your post in more detail hoping that hearing your explanation would clear up my mind and reassure me that it was all a dumb idea anyways. I just feel somewhat stressed thinking about this game at times and how all the interactions are developing and I didn't really have anyone to discuss it with since FT checked out anyways. You are right that Mastin could be scum and the entire discussion could be meaningless. If Mastin is town, AP is probably the one I'd be looking at. I'd be looking at him even if Mastin was scum though. I can see where you are coming from with JSU or Pie. Pie keeps posting in the neighborhood blatantly townie things and we're so in sync that I'd bet the game on his being town. And yeah, I'm probably a bit frustrated that they don't just all post whatever it is in the thread. No, I don't blame you for getting paranoid. It's just that I was paranoid too.

[CarbonFiber]

I don't even know ho to respond to that.

Press Close and Reopen firefox to Restart AngryPidgeon_bot.js

Because you are doing everything you can to take advantage of paranoia and increase it as opposed to letting it resolve naturally through our conversation.

[CarbonFiber]

Come on, that's not what I think at all.

[CarbonFiber]

Des claims that he doesn't care about being transparent in thread and was phone posting at the time. I guess now that it's out in the open, he'll come out with it.

[CarbonFiber]

WHY ISN'T DES OUT HERE ACCUSING ME LIKE A BIG BOY???????

...and sure yeah i'm stupid for not trusting your neighborhood. I'm just a ball of dumb.

I never said you were stupid or dumb for not trusting our neighborhood and you know that I don't think that. We've been using the neighborhood as a repository for our thoughts in an unfiltered way, thoughts that are too trivial to post in thread. It is part of how I developed reads on Desp and Pie. I get why you reacted that way and I'd hate it too if I was in the dark about conversations about me and that's part of why I wanted to bring it up as soon as I could so that any conversation I'm having about you was out her and not in the neighborhood because I really would be frustrated if it was me. It is just the game has been long and confusing and I've gotten paranoid in unexpected places not unlike your own paranoia and I hoped that once I talked about it with you directly, I can get rid of it and continue trying to figure the game out. It's what I thought you'd prefer.

[CarbonFiber]

Des claims that he doesn't care about being transparent in thread and was phone posting at the time. I guess now that it's out in the open, he'll come out with it.

yes yes and we're all retards who can't get a town read on that damn slot when they're not doing dip for shit in thread and hiding behind their neighborhood.

I'm sure it's a problem with us and NOT a problem with them. At all.

I know. And it isn't fair to you for me to keep shutting down suspicion on them. I told Desp to post in the thread more and that I won't be covering for them anymore.

[CarbonFiber]

nacho/Mastinssk/Pigey/Carbonfiber

scumteam 2014

LOL. I am scumreading MastinSSK and Pidgeon with Rancid being a third scum. Don't know about the fourth. So, just help me "bus" Mastin and Pidgeon for now I guess. Until you finish catching up and figure out that I am town.

[CarbonFiber]

I don't have drinks but soda will have to do for me.

[CarbonFiber]

everyone's ganging up on me

[CarbonFiber]

lmao I'm losing it over here

should I get drunk too

i'm not even 21 ~

-Y

Yes.

[CarbonFiber]

tammy they're a bunch of assholes they don't matter

Are we still talking about this game?

[CarbonFiber]

and ultimately i thought "if i'm wrong and bro is a shithead, he gets one win. i'm not competitive enough to let someone go without help for the sake of one win". and mastin goes "well, if he's telling the truth, he's still wrong" and when i read that i got shivers down my spine because it was so cruel, so neglecting of everything bro was going through

When you post like this, I feel like you are near trust-tell level town.

But why this long to bring it up?

[CarbonFiber]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... start=3275
Wait this game is over now omfg.

OK look at this shit. Look at it.

Mastin was pissing me off tha tgame cause she was on my team. Yet she put forth zero fucking effort in it. Meanwhile shes posting up a storm over here. I think she was just wanting to be a hero. a town hero.

Also f16 is double dipping on me/mastin and it continues to be scumvuille.

He has called me scummy for tunneling on him since D1 and when asked said that the scum motive for doing this was that I could just keep tunneling him w/o him being lynched.

Now hes saying that Im trying to set him up q/ a mastin flip. when Ive done fucking nothing but say mastin is prob town. Idgi. please advise.

Effort isn't alignment indicative for Mastin and I think he and Nacho went over that.

[CarbonFiber]

That was a joke!

and I kinda feel like F-16 has done my "replacement" scumtell thing that has given me pretty good accuracy so far. I don't really see anything that excludes the two of them being scum together, though there probably could be better options for either/or/both

I've decided to not arse myself with the dead, but initial impression was lean-town

Awhellnaw

What's your "replacement" scumtell?

[CarbonFiber]

Spoiler: Titan

So then what is your take on des's how dare I feel any suspicion towards your neighborhood whatsoever if mastin flips town nonsense that falcon relayed?

And quite frankly I'm pissed off at the suggestion I can't be suspicious/parnaoid of your neighborhood when the entire fucking game your neighborhood has been cloaked and we're just supposed to accept whatever trickles come out when one of you is ready to share it. It fucking blows. Your neighborhood fucking blows. Everything about it blows.

I think it's scummy to sit in a fucking neighborhood and not do fucking shit in teh fucking game and throw stones while not doing fucking shit.

And what reads are you fucking talking about.

YOur neighborhood fucking blows.

i mean, empire did that and he was in the scum neighborhood of the century. but he wasn't scum, and that was because he cared as much as he did over defending them.

AND YOU'RE WONDERING WHY I'M FUCKING BOTHERED??????????????????

I was bothered in that game too. I said scum was in there. I knew he was being taken for a ride. Noone fucking listened to me.

So, what are you asking me?

Look, I wanted to see where your suspicion was coming from and I went and read your ISO in the VisCon game where you repeatedly accused the scum in the neighborhood. I even saw Empire and Mara saying the neighborhood was all town etc. Then you made posts constantly saying that you don't trust the neighborhood and ended up being right. It does make sense to be suspicious here of the same thing happening. I guess at the time I got paranoid of you, I wasn't thinking in that context. But now that I see it, it makes a LOT of sense. I actually think suspecting us makes you even more town considering that background. I am overall convinced that you are town enough that I'd bet the game on it.

Also, I realized I asked you to trust me on BRO-Desp earlier which it turns out is exactly the sort of thing you

didn't

want to do in VisCon and turned out to be right. I have a better idea now about how you are looking at it and I am not going to ask you to trust me just because I've interacted with them in the neighborhood. I'll engage you with however you are reading them in thread based on your interactions with them. (I'm still getting through all the latest Pedits btw.) Does that sound like a better idea and a good way to fix what's been screwed up so far?

[CarbonFiber]

Oh my gods.

Falcon.

You actually think Desbro is town????????????????????

What the fuck are you people smoking.

Oh my fucking gods.

Everytime I doubt it, I go back to BRO's meltdown post. I have a hard time seeing it as fake.

seriously tell me how much of my posts you have read?

and when you went all complainy in the neighborhood about that falcon didn't correct you????????

This wasn't brought up in the neighborhood.

[CarbonFiber]

I've asked penguin to read through them and tell me what she thinks. We both acknowledged her reading him incorrectly in Wicked but she might be able to pin down if that is something he could/would fake.

I think that's a great idea. I almost forgot how well they knew each other. What do you think of Nacho's certainty on it?

[CarbonFiber]

What do you think of Nacho's certainty on it?

Specifically what he said about if BRO actually pulled this shit as scum, then he's won one game but by irrevocably burning a lot of bridges. I mean faking an anxiety attack is just incredibly poor sportsmanship.

[CarbonFiber]

Okay. Gonna re-evaluate EVERYBODY and post a classic F-16 reads-list. (One that has reasons attached to reads). Now is as good a time as any and the events of last night at least helped me eliminate a few players. Penguin won't be included since she hasn't posted (you'll have to wait, Mara) but I'll add it on after I hear back from her.