Team Mafia 2020: Normal Game (Endgame)

[RadiantCowbells]

and gbye

[RadiantCowbells]

I guess because I don't feel like being hated by TW because I disagree with his view of the ethics of the situation. \o/

[RadiantCowbells]

I’ve literally been quiet and asked the others to be quiet.

**poofs back into hiding until asked something or talked about again**

If not current reads are RC+TW+Ari scum

Serious question: where the heck does this read of the gamestate come from?

This is like the mooniest logic of all time.

[RadiantCowbells]

When/if you guys drive a dumb mislynch because you somehow think that me/TW is still up in the air

That his repeated avoidance of committing to any sort of read on Ari after being called out as his partner is town

That his calling me out for misrepping him even though he had to respond to most of my points because they were too damning to let stand

Because you somehow believe that Duckling who is playing to win to the point that he's whining about postcount shutting him out of the game votes RadiantCowbells who has claimed investigative to... up town winrate?

Like guys? Are you all in some parallel universe where this isn't a super fucking obvious situation?

[RadiantCowbells]

i wouldn't say so. sometimes i guess.

Cool cool cool

I ask because while your initial post about the party hat was innocuous, your responses to Math calling it out were a little less so. I could see it from a newbie or someone like Nancy Drew (sorry my compadre but it's apt and I know you understand) who is more likely to take things more emotionally or personally on a quick read. You seemed a lot more ruffled by Math than you needed to be.

VOTE: Tris

I think this a decent start to the game and have a few decent reads already, which is nice

Also I finally got a chance to look into this Flopz character and, uh, WTF is their vote on me and, as a follow up, WTF was their posting around that time!?
It is the fakest shit and, like, the most contrived posting I've read in a long time!

"I'm fixing my vote posthaste because apparently you thought not voting was scummy"
"I scumread Ari for the usual reasons"

Seriously, I don't even know you. What are "the usual reasons"???
Why did you vote me when pressure was placed on you and not before? You said you were gonna come back with a vote and good reasons and content and never did.Your callout to RC was bs. What are you even doing??

VOTE: Flopz

srsly.

like I can't lynch Duckling who is mod confirmed scum to me and he tried to PL me when I went after you and you come in with the following

Also I finally got a chance to look into this Flopz character and, uh, WTF is their vote on me and, as a follow up, WTF was their posting around that time!?
It is the fakest shit and, like, the most contrived posting I've read in a long time!

It's... really hard to imagine this being a townpost?

I mean, for one thing modconfirmed scum on D1 is something I super expect you to say but also means literally almost nothing in the grand scheme of things because like, no.

For two, I mean, is that not reasonable? It's how I felt about their posting and I literally had not encountered a single post from this person until I searched for them. And their posting is contrived. And their ovte on me is BS. SO Iunno what you expect from me tbh but this is what you're getting so, uh, yeah. Deal with it.

Sorry like

These are incredibly scummy ways of pushing other slots

And the fact that he entirely dodges the question of whether Duckling is scum as well, then starts regurgitating the exact same bullshit that TW has clearly been whining about in scum PT even though it doesn't really make sense since this is the median length game, like

I have never heard of Aristophanes complaining about game length and he was in some really stupidly long games, this comes from somewhere else. Gee I wonder who else seems to be really upset about game length and whose attempt to policy lynch me out of the game makes a fuck ton of sense when I am literally calling out said player as scum with this player.

You guys as a whole really need to get a grip.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like you guys don't even have the slightest amount of respect for my reads to want to be forcing Duckling to take a concrete stance on Ari, really?

But whatever. I don't want to play this game in a way that encourages Ari's teammates to again tell him to be here when he can't but this Flopz wagon is bad and y'all should feel bad.

[RadiantCowbells]

Sometimes it's objectively true.

I don't really care to be diplomatic about someone literally attempting to policy Lynch an outed investigative because they called then scum and people being yeah this is all very reasonable and likely to come from town just because they got Eddie Cane to ask a bunch of random questions and posted a bunch of sad face emoticons

[RadiantCowbells]

All wagons and players are not created equally and I'm not going to pretend they are for feel good reasons when no one is even acting like Ducks play or Ari associatives are a problem

[RadiantCowbells]

You have no idea how painful it is to be playing town and have all my contributions asterisked because *I cOuLd Be FaKiNg ThIs As ScUm* when if I was anyone who even slightly towncleared themselves with stuff they posted my slots alignment wouldn't be in question

[RadiantCowbells]

Nothing I'm saying here should hurt a townread on me.

If it does you should seriously reconsider how you generate reads because you can dislike what I'm saying but you should never ever scumread it.

[RadiantCowbells]

NY (town)player who is taking your reads as the holy bible at this point isn't doing their job properly

It's a lot easier to determine my alignment by the alignment of people I want lynched than by voting people I don't want lynched and hoping you eventually figure it out (in this case getting nightkilled)

And again, my points are not intrinsically linked to my identity and I'm not telling you to sheep me because I'm me, I'm telling you to sheep me because I have a massive body of evidence for why my reads are right

[RadiantCowbells]

You are now shading the worst's slot by diminishing what it is saying about you. You keep hammering on how he's policy lynch pushing you, while that has clearly only been a smaller part in a whole. For instance

Seriously stop for a second:

Why does Duckling scumread me?

[RadiantCowbells]

Go through his entire interaction with me since he voted me

All he's done is spew buzzwords like misrep dishonest whatever even when he is responding to a lot of the points at 100% face value and some of the biggest reasons, like the Ari interactions, are objectively true.

I cannot really explain in my own words why Duckling thinks I'm scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

Literally

All that is in that post is him claiming it's a real scumread and using the word agenda 3 times without actually pointing out any instances of me pushing an agenda. For example he first concretely accused me of agenda pushing by pointing out the similarities between what Ari was complaining about and what Duck claimed to be complaining about and given I have never in my life seen Ari make that kind of complaint, I said it was prolly scum-scum. Duck handwaved that and said because it's true there's a lot of posts it is objectively true and I am agenda pushing. Even though this is the median lengthed game.

[RadiantCowbells]

You're not making an effort to understand how I feel and why I'm so frustrated here if you think that just Ari being at L2 resolves my problem with the game.

[RadiantCowbells]

I am diminishing it to y u policy lynch me because he used the exact phrasing and because frankly I don't have the ability to respond to an argument for why I'm scum because none has actually been made except a bunch of vague at accusations that I'm pushing an agenda and shutting down town discourse

[RadiantCowbells]

I think that assuming I end up being right in postgame

I'm 100% justified being salty that you guys don't see this.

[RadiantCowbells]

Unvote please because again, I don't want to be a contributing factor to Ari's scumteam bullying him to come play when he's busy.

I'm just asking people to take things I say seriously and not let my scumgame hang over how people interpret things I say?

Like I'm saying factual things...

[RadiantCowbells]

Both positions are unreasonable

There's a middle ground here

[RadiantCowbells]

It doesn't creep me out.

[RadiantCowbells]

You're welcome to follow up on it though

[RadiantCowbells]

Do you remember when I was talking about how scum not under pressure want to keep as many options open as possible and scum under pressure want to have as many townreads as possible to avoid pushing anyone away by scumreading them and to seem pro-town?

[RadiantCowbells]

Do you remember how you were voting a bunch of my townreads, trying to threaten me with policy lynches to stop defending my townreads, and just generally being incredibly stingy as townreads before but now that RC is believed scum he's parcelling out townreads like candy even though, like, clearing someone from being my buddy is basically impossible because I bring out the best in my teammates? Like idk bbcakeses

[RadiantCowbells]

I'll consent that 'stop defending my townreads' isn't exactly fair unbiased phrasing but the point is true that I wanted to take a proactive role in defending my townreads because I hated some of the wagons and Duck got mad and threatened me with a PL.

I don't think hating my postcount because I'm making the game difficult to play is mutually exclusive because I was making this game hard for scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

any tips on accurately reaing associatives with scum!RC?

Like this has already been addressed

It's hard to clear anyone from being scum w/ me and a lot easier to townread people when they don't have me potentially coaching them and yet Duckling upon thinking I'm scum has started to townread like 8/13 players

[RadiantCowbells]

And they're all the same people that I cleared a long time ago, that's the funniest part, he calls me scum then sheeps all my townreads.

[RadiantCowbells]

It's actually incredibly alignment indicative that you're suddenly trying to pocket all the people that you scumread before when you're under pressure.

[RadiantCowbells]

(i called Shoshin out in BP for doing exactly this funnily enough)

[RadiantCowbells]

let's not be talking about getting money on mafia which is explicitly named as against the rules.

[RadiantCowbells]

Do not bring outside influences into the game - this includes threats, bribes, wagers, promises, "trust tells", alliances, etc. Using knowledge from previous games is perfectly acceptable, but try not to carry grudges from one game to another.

I don't want this game to contain a modkill.

[RadiantCowbells]

I never said you were.

You were careful about phrasing in a way that RCE wasn't.

I'm stepping in to make sure that you bringing the topic up doesn't lead to someone saying something that shouldn't be said.

[RadiantCowbells]

Normal people don't need to play like me bc normal people post Towny things get townread and can play the game normally whereas there's like dozens of really simple reasons that I'm town and dozens of more complex ones and they just don't come into question because I'm good at scum!!! and people are advocating refusing to listen to reads from me because they come from me so yes I swing the pendulum the other way.

This would all have been easier for everyone if I was townread for being towny and capable of pushing a lynch via strength of argument, which I largely can't right now because any argument I put forth gets outweighed by ...."yeah but he COULD still be scum right because he's RC???"

Like Skitter and Duck and you are good as scum too but you can reasonably earn townreads by being consistently towny, I just have literally no combination of mechanical or play reasons that are good enough to townread me.

[RadiantCowbells]

And I'm too good at finding scum for my reads not being taken into account to not dramatically drop towns shot at winning... so you get this.

Think I want to be threadsitting all the time?

But no, brute Force and calling for BOP are the only ways for me to influence town so they are what I resort to.

I'm not playing for a long time after this but if you want my play to change your approach to me has to change with it.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like it's REALLY obvious duck is scum

And I'm sure when I flip town and everyone goes back to try to understand my case they'll be like uhh wait wtf there's no way any of this comes from town and he'll be lynched and this won't be a problem

BUT

Any of you can have that consideration that I have to earn through death it repeated scum lynches just by posting a case. I can't. I get by. When I was townread for being Towny I was okay to be not like this but when people decided it was time to start calling me policy scum I had to change course. I'm not going to lose because people want to PL me. Let me live my life and I'll let you live yours.

[RadiantCowbells]

This is another way of saying that, bluntly, I have no sympathy because from my perspective I was forced into this role.

[RadiantCowbells]

Unless you think I should just be fine with being inevitably lynched for who I am. Which I'm not and never going to be.

[RadiantCowbells]

Ok well if you don't want to lynch Duck we should lynch Ari

[RadiantCowbells]

Or just lynch me so I don't have to be a party to this.

[RadiantCowbells]

Oh, I'm not ruffled.

I don't think I take things personally. But, I like to drill into people who attacking me for reasons i don't get. i've found that sometimes comes from scum.

Maybe I stated that badly. You don't seem ruffled. Your responses just sounded a but defensive and the followups a tad contrived.

Also literally anything can come from scum sometimes. Town tells can come from scum sometimes! This is so empty.

This and this alone is the reason Ari is scum btw.
Town him has more meaningful commentary than repeatedly falling the people he is voting contrived (note exact same phrase used to describe Flopz).

Like A50 has a bad townread. Ok. I'm over it.

[RadiantCowbells]

And TW bringing up Eddie Cane every other post to try to spew himself town is just stupidly blatant.

[RadiantCowbells]

You have the privilege of approaching the game you do

You're a universal townread for less than 1/5th of how clear it is that I'm town. If I could be townread being like you and able to push my lynches nicely I'd do that

[RadiantCowbells]

I literally can't even vote my preferred lynch because everyone had written it off out of hand because it comes from me. That's a problem innit?

[RadiantCowbells]

Do u think anyone would ever to you be like "lolno you might be scum so we shouldn't vote anyone you scumread"

[RadiantCowbells]

I think we should just hammer Ari because this gamestate with Duck trying to out townspew his bad ari associatives is really unhealthy.

[RadiantCowbells]

Then I die, then you lunch Duckling, then you all are on your own. Still think that says Tris/Plum/Xtoxm buddies but really do whatever you want after that.

[RadiantCowbells]

Dann is busy ohhh ok that's how you justify treating me like shit

[RadiantCowbells]

Just remember in postgame who it was that declared a policy lynch on me to try to set me off to prevent me from lynching him and Ari.

Can we get this hammer so this game can end soonet

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't want to wait until Sunday anymore.

The pressure on Ari from his scumteam to perform is just as gone if he gets lynched.

[RadiantCowbells]

Whee I get to be Chesskid with duck in my role

Why did I /in to team mafis

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't know how you can not see Ari/TW Skitter

Agreed let's do it makes it L1

[RadiantCowbells]

No

I am lynching Ari because he's scum

Like I said it has nothing to do with his inactivity or lack thereof

Stop trying to act like me scumreading your scumteam is due to RL circumstances ad opposed to y'all just playing like hot garbage.

[RadiantCowbells]

Dude Skitter you really think town Duck accused me of pushing a PL due to inactivity on Ari with all that's going on

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I literally scum read Ari immediately, while he was present in the game. Duck is now claiming this all was a policy Lynch? That's blatantly untrue. What do you think it all adds up to?

[RadiantCowbells]

Maybe the two slots with incredibly bad mutual associatives hard defending one another and using OOG to push on me are scum. Just maybe?

[RadiantCowbells]

Like Duck won't call Ari town

He's hard waffled on Ari over and over and over

But he's accusing me of policy lynching him when by his own logic he can't townread the slot, what? Why is Duckling getting away with this?

[RadiantCowbells]

Can we stop townreading reasonable LAMIST crap as a website please.

[RadiantCowbells]

Why is Duckling getting away with open wolfing this hard

[RadiantCowbells]

This is actual insanity

No one in all your teams reads this and is like uhh what's up with TW

[RadiantCowbells]

Can I have 1 Lynch off of the back of my 77% town winrate please?

[RadiantCowbells]

Scum atp are gonna do their utmost to prevent either Ari or Duck from flipping we can literally end this game right now

[RadiantCowbells]

Ur bluster sucks. :V

[RadiantCowbells]

Why does town Duck care this much about protecting a nullread when Ari is either going to flip scum or give him an easy lynch on Scum!me

This game is painful because Duck is all in on preventing town from winning a game scum have already lost

This can be really simple and resolved.

[RadiantCowbells]

If duck cared enough about being protown to protect Ari rather than trade his lynch for me he'd care enough about my investigative claim to make voting me off limits.

[RadiantCowbells]

I certainly want that.

[RadiantCowbells]

Give out all those TMI townreads

Maybe if you give enough town will be stupid enough to not speedlynch you tomorrow.

[RadiantCowbells]

Please don't clear Duck off of some sort of 'he wouldn't do this as scum' logic.

[RadiantCowbells]

Love you too Math.

I wasn't the one who threatened a PL though.

[RadiantCowbells]

Can you compromise, and lynch Ari because you believe in my ability to find scum?

[RadiantCowbells]

Please don't hammer in the next 5 minutes.

NSG is reading.

[RadiantCowbells]

myself just like ... i really hope you're right because if you're not tomorrow is going to be another clusterfuck

[RadiantCowbells]

Momentum matters teacher and my role is probably a majority of the power we have unless we have [frequently accompanying role]

[RadiantCowbells]

He's already readable.

[RadiantCowbells]

He literally already declared a ridiculously overconfident gamesolve on page 2, pushed people twice off of vaguely worded buzzwords using the word "contrived" inappropriately in both, he made this really weird waffle on Bella, he had his chance.

If NSG agrees with me there's literally no reason we shouldn't hammer.

[RadiantCowbells]

I've already taken way too much of her attention for this game.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also he claimed to have good reads and then didn't give any besides random scumreads on the consensus scummy people of page 2.

[RadiantCowbells]

Nsg so far says that The Worst has given some pretty outlandish theories as to what actions I'm taking as scum. Still reading.

[RadiantCowbells]

NSG: I more wonder why TW voted Skitter and what surrounded that, if this were a film set in a courtroom that would be the important question

So if he wanted to play it slow reading someone who scary scum + trajectory upward, as said in 1112, why vote

And if the vote is to input Pascals Or rxn test why not say anything about it? She estimates she would say the motivation are hard to be seen because they don't overlap with either approach one might take

Easy to assume that a townie must always be planned out and can never be inconsistent or change their minds on something

She doesn't think it was ever explained satisfactorily, at least to her, and she doesn't think that the motivations match.

And the Ari scumteam theory works

Mother fucker she's typing a lot and I'm on a phone lol

[RadiantCowbells]

In 984 he said (long list of scum plays) and I think that's exactly what he did

He voted Skitter a few times and said that he scumreadsed her and sad she's scum but never doth gave reason not seemed worried, then without ceremony became a townread

Another note is she found that a few times someone scumreading Skitter should have stronger stances about things or have more to say but little is said by TW (big Skitter fight primary example but other moments exist)

She says that in terms of the Ari connection she thinks that ducklings vote seems more like a hop on a rising wagon in general on a rational rather than intuition based level than connected to Aristophanes

Skitter and the worst act weird around each other in general and that caused her issues in c9++

[RadiantCowbells]

NSG right now believes we should be lynching Duckling not Aristophanes but I'm trying to sell her on the associative read.

[RadiantCowbells]

She also asked for Dannflors thoughts on the whole thing earlier in the discussion but I don't see the point in going that direction ato.

[RadiantCowbells]

Her mind is made up on TW.

[RadiantCowbells]

She did tell me to do my thing though, so.

Take that as you will.

If we can get a wagon on TW I think that we should do it since I largely agree with her that it's marginally more consistently a scumflip

[RadiantCowbells]

But my personal view is that TW has EC helping him townspew, has been sitting around trying to selfspew town pocketing everyone, and if we go after duckling even with combined myself and NSG behind it it's highly likely to end in scum convincing town to compromise lynch a weak townie and town eventually losing.

[RadiantCowbells]

So basically

If you trust the weight of my team we should lynch TW
If Ari is the one we can get today, that's good enough for me but NSG has concerns that TW is deliberately positioning himself as a likely Ari partner to convince me that it's fine to compromise on him.

[RadiantCowbells]

As in like

TW is so deliberately refusing to take a stance
So deliberately taking positions that are outlandish and scumpartnerish

And maybe TW thought he could lynch me and his vote on me was related to my read on him not Ari and is now deliberately trying to play that read up

If I have to pick between you or TW I pick you every time Raybells.

I trust that NSG is saying these things. I just don’t trust your slot is town.

You still haven’t answered my question what happens if you’re wrong?

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm going to trust NSG and vote Duckling.

If that gets me lynched, that's on town.

VOTE: the worst

[RadiantCowbells]

Hardclaim town Detective

I target a player every night and if they have ever committed a killing action I get a guilty on them.

I suspect that there may be a Vig as the major other source of town power to antisynergize.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't necessarily agree with her read that Duck is trying to fuck with associatives, I don't think that happens, but given town loses the game outright if the lynch is wrong I'm not going to just ignore her.

[RadiantCowbells]

Ari

NSG is busy IRL

I put her under 0 pressure to perform when she's busy

I don't think the problem here is me, it's your team having unrealistic expectations of you.

[RadiantCowbells]

She also thinks Teacher belongs ~somewhere~ on the scumteam

[RadiantCowbells]

Also Ari

I literally never accused you of being scum for lack of posting or reading
You know who keeps bringing that up as a thing? Duckling.

Almost as if you're taking talking points from him.

[RadiantCowbells]

Fine

VOTE: Aristophanes

You hardclaim fake shit all the time.

You’re literally the Raybells who cries wolf.

Now we are seeing what Ari has to say and get a read on them.

You're on another plane of existence if you think the guy who wants to live to endgame falsely claimed a role that's gonna end up dead fast

[RadiantCowbells]

Feel free to vote me Mathblade, I'm not going to jump through hoops for you.

[RadiantCowbells]

You're literally

Gambling the game off of thinking that I'm better than NSG

While claiming to think that I'm terrible as town.

So...

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: The Worst

[RadiantCowbells]

This really feels like you’re entirely out of control and panicking. If you’re town it’s in our best interest you stop posting and let Ari read.

As scum? Me? Out of control and panicking?
What UNIVERSE do you live in?

Who do you think I am
Who exactly is it that you think you're talking to?

A man rolls scum and panics, and you think that of me?
No. I am the one who induces panic.

[RadiantCowbells]

Don't bother you're under my protection again. I shall follow Princess Paragon, see you Sunday, etc. My bad.

[RadiantCowbells]

If you're town send NSG a nice PM after the game because she probably saved it tbh.

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean. I think I'm a fantastic player. But I'm just me.

NSG is the best player in TM and it's bluntly not close without CES/Elli present.

I will literally fight for her reads to the death tbh

[RadiantCowbells]

He's playing the extremely-fucking-obvious out with Ari when he's been indignant in pushing for the lynch / agreed to my fake offer for me to hammer earlier.

This doesn't make sense

I genuinely changed my mind

Because NSG told me that I should change my read

If anything the fact that NSG shows up and I actually change my point of view is fucking undeniably a towntell and I can't have been holding off on her to show up to fake a 180 because I assented to your hammer

Your read on me is fake news your approach to my slot is fake news me and NSG both think you're scum you die either before or after me bad duck no breadcrumbs

[RadiantCowbells]

*looks at thread*

*nopes the fuck out*

*thinks ari's ate is probably townie*

If it helps, NSG didn't want to lynch Ari.

If you want to use me as a conduit for her I am fine with that as long as she's around.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also

NSG also said in the past you've used her as the gold standard of reading her and she can only think of 1 misread so you acting like you can't read her is some fucking bullshit duckling.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like she can't read you

[RadiantCowbells]

She also said it took her about 2 minutes to hard townread you in 9:12 (but one data point and predicting town is 70% right but still)

[RadiantCowbells]

NSG doesn't believe that you would ever misread me here and that's the smoking gun in her decision to lynch you over Ari.

I don't think EC also makes that misread either.

She is no longer present and I will encourage her to actually respond this time but I really don't think our position as a hydra team whatever changes.

[RadiantCowbells]

at this point ari is almost like a proxy for the tw/rc thing

and if he's town i'd think rc is scum pushing a tw/rc narrative
and if he's scum i'd tw was trying to defend him

Ok

But what if NSG is actually right that Duck was trying to fake associatives and screw with me

[RadiantCowbells]

so he's scum and just like sowing associatives with ari as a big massive distraction
he just gets lynched here eventually tho so what's the point

If Ari flips town and I flip town no one lynches Duckling after.

[RadiantCowbells]

I was already bringing up some of the problems with Ari-TW associatives before NSG got really worried about it; no one cared then, who is hypothetically going to care after I've hypothetically discredited myself to shit driving a mislynch?

[RadiantCowbells]

like what tw gets lynched first and is setting up ari to go after him ?
i mean ... there's gotta be an easier way to get town!ari mislynched than this, right?

I think the idea is he's setting me up to fall.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm not going to say it was a townie pop-in but I am also not going against NSGs read.

[RadiantCowbells]

at this point ari is almost like a proxy for the tw/rc thing

and if he's town i'd think rc is scum pushing a tw/rc narrative
and if he's scum i'd tw was trying to defend him

Ok

But what if NSG is actually right that Duck was trying to fake associatives and screw with me

sorry, i'm going to calmness-check myself before i reply and only reply when i feel it matters but god i wish i was this good :{

the best i've done of this was literally BoP2 and i only managed to get urap to consider that i wasn't totally partnercleared with you in order to vent his frustrations by locking you as scum and it was something enter and i very much came up with at the 11th hour and it shouldn't have worked

like you've suggested i have a really strong vein of poor associatives with ari and i'm not sure why i ever look at this plist and v/la ari and go "mmmm yeet let's pretend to be scum with afkstophanes"

NSGs case

Is that the original Skitter vote has nothing to do with Ari and was just hopping on an easy mislynch

And that you decided after I connected the two after you voted me to trick me by having shitty associatives with Ari into leading his lynch rather than yours.

[RadiantCowbells]

She had colorful words to describe how little sense your position on Aristophanes made.

[RadiantCowbells]

Too poorly thought out to be buddies and very probably too poorly reasoned to be town.

[RadiantCowbells]

so tw -> you via making ari look like a partner ?
yeah i'm not sure how viable of an idea that is tbh

shrug

it's her reason for me to change votes.

[RadiantCowbells]

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

back to work seeya later

skitter & math both - i sincerely wish i could stay cool long enough to do half of what you guys are doing rn. thank you.

Also this is my claim

But you know full well that NSG and by extension me are town.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also like you guys should see that he's trying to pocket you?

Like he keeps buttering y'all up

[RadiantCowbells]

But ok

I am willing to back down on TW if he dies the day after I get nightkilled, no ifs or buts.

Not bc I think it's pro wincon, but because I'm really really tired if this.

[RadiantCowbells]

NSG agrees w/ you on Teacher / Tris below null.

I didn't get a full readslist from her because we were talking about other things but.

[RadiantCowbells]

I disagree, the latter post actually feels somewhat overworded.

[RadiantCowbells]

Princess paragon lives one second

[RadiantCowbells]

{cutest person}
{Skitter10, elephant}
{Iconeum}
{plums}
{Aristo, Xtoxm} -this is a null line
{Floppy disk}
{RCE, Tris, duckling, teacher}

[RadiantCowbells]

Skitter she wants to know why you're tring Flopz and RcE

[RadiantCowbells]

Without saying either of us townread TW NSG thinks that it's a bad thing to pursue right now

[RadiantCowbells]

NSG also specifically thinks RCE/Teacher have SvS looking associatives which I somewhat agree with having had it brought up and they're also the slots outside of my listed scumpool which I think I individually have the highest odds of having read incorrectly due to having abandoned a previous scumread on RcE and having given Teacher a very easy scumread.

[RadiantCowbells]

I agree with you btw

Teacher is the scumread I most think is liable to be correct

[RadiantCowbells]

i guess roughly where i'm at ^
i would probably pick tw over rc today if gun-to-head i was forced to but i don't really want to pick a fight in that rn

The fact that you've said this

Makes me personally a lot more comfortable dropping it for now

If that's what you'd prefer we do

[RadiantCowbells]

Ok I have other games to read

I'm letting go of my Ari lockscum because I agree that it's based on not bad but like dangerous assumptions

I'm not gonna do a coherent readslist rn but the general gist is

Duck is still scum. Neither mine nor NSGs reasons changed. I even think his tone change when I backed off Ari is creepy as hell.
We're still town. We are gonna die very early. When we do, trust us when we say that neither of the members of that team claiming to scumread us would ever ever ever scumread us.

RCEnigmas towniest point in the game was their vote on the Ari wagon. The same is true of Iconeum. I don't actually feel RCE is likely to be scum. Pretty sure Ico ain't. So not good directions
Bella is also still town and for much the same reasons as previously given.
Flopz I'm townreading for bad reasons but idk if that makes it a bad read.
Tris I'm a lot less sure is gonna be scum than some other people are.
Plum on the other hand I don't really see a lot of reason to townread
Math has played well enough that he can win if scum.
Skitter just isn't scum.
Ari we'll see won't we!
Teacher, like I like the quick unvote of Skitter but there were a lot of weird votes then unvotes on Skitter and I think I may be interpreting some sort of weird plan as a genuine unvote. I have no other reason to TR him besides that.
What do I even say about Xtoxm

In this list

Assuming Ari is town

My impetus would be to say look in {Plum Teacher Duckling Flopz? Xtoxm} but not in that order.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also i'm starting to become a wee bit paranoid that i'm being buddied/pocketed given how i think literally everyone is townreading me
And how people are talking to me on this page

I think you should really

Go into TWs individual iso

And look at his read developments including on you.

[RadiantCowbells]

I can lynch you: you can pretend otherwise if you want to.

I'm choosing not to.

[RadiantCowbells]

Reading slots with an open mind hmm...

Ok I don't even want to start this.

[RadiantCowbells]

Let's start here.

VOTE: Teacher

I promise if there are at least 4 pages of meaningful discussion tomorrow I will not post. If there is a further 4 pages on Saturday I will continue not posting. I will start posting Sunday whenever Ari is around if these conditions are met.

[RadiantCowbells]

That's L2 and I'm not comfortable with it.

Something you should know regarding Mathblade's scumread on me:

1) in our first ever T-T game Mathblade fakeclaimed a guilty on me. I was town. He blamed me for it.
2) after i explicitly off-site told him I didn't want him in my games, he joined everhopetopia whatever it's called. He started screaming that Maria/me were SvS and when I asked him to leave because I clearly informed him that I wanted him to leave me alone, he refused and i had to sub out. We were both town, Maria was also town, I was trying to lead on scum.
We tried a few times long after to make things work, decided they didn't, Math agreed to stop joining my games.
3) Mathblade then joins DnD upick under a secret alt. Insists that Lovebird/RC is scum v scum after I claimed masons with her and that Messiah Complex my preferred lynch was town. We lynched MC, they were scum, Lovebird got NKed and was town. D2: me and gigs said Schadd was 100% town and wanted to lynch Wisdom. Mathblade was screaming that Schadd was scum, MC was a bus, wisdom was town. All 3 reads wrong. This is barely over a year ago. Math also kept insisting that they improved a lot and now were better than they used to be but what they actually are is still same old Mathblade.
4) before all of this, I played Civilization mafia (yes THE civ mafia) with Math where I was scum and she was town. Most town had caught most of my buddies as a group but they weren't sucking up to Math in the right way so she townreads

literally every scum

and scumreads

every town but one

in late game. Everyone (ie townies, not me) calls him out on this and the fact that he made town lose but he instead blames the town for not treating his reads with respect having wrong reads.
5) addendum that there is one and only one time on MS I remember him pushing a correct lead. Shaziro said that he knew someone else wasn't the vig and that a thingy that happened was odd. Math decided that meant he was crumbing odd night jailkeeper who had targeted them????? And when it came to massclaim Math claimed that they were definitely fakeclaiming because they were lying about being odd night jailkeeper. Shaziro did in fact flip serial killer and this is in fact the 1 time to my knowledge that Math pushed scum on MS. But.

Math is my oldest blacklist because I got banned because of him pissing me off not once, not twice, but three times, all in situations where I had politely and repeatedly asked them to me me alone so I didn't get pushed to that point. I'm remaining civil here to the best of my ability however I want to make perfectly clear to y'all that listening to Mathblade is how you lose games horribly. His scumread on me is not a meaningful data point because he simply calls me scum on principle because as he's stated in the past, my way of playing the game is scummy.

[RadiantCowbells]

Someone pls unvote so I can go back to not having to post.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think that no one tries to push a lynch in my absence is a clear stipulation of the agreement and you're free to unvote.

[RadiantCowbells]

It was a stipulation when I made it the first time and the general idea that I don't want my absence from the game to serve scum purposes should kinda go without saying? I'm giving the thread space to breathe, not giving you a platform to go against NSGs wishes uncontested.

[RadiantCowbells]

So... Can you help me do what you also claim to want? Just unvote and let's get thoughts from Plum etc.

[RadiantCowbells]

This is a choice that you can make

Either I just go back to posting or you unvote and stop encouraging people to lunch Ari before I get back. It's your decision and if you feel my presence serves scum purposes it's an easy one.

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean. The 'promise' was clearly based on the premise that we'd have a Sunday for me to engage Ari in. You think you're town carry God in the face of all evidence fine, but I owe my team better than to let you lead.

[RadiantCowbells]

Literally you are encouraging people to lynch Ari before Sunday

I said all I want was for no one to be pushed for a lynch before Sunday (wagoning ppl obviously fine)

So if you intend there to be a Sunday why do you need to refuse me asking you to just not lynch anyone for that time

[RadiantCowbells]

And I'm not comfortable with L-2 in a situation where scum can probably get away with quickhammering.

[RadiantCowbells]

You have the choice of unvoting that you can take or leave

[RadiantCowbells]

And I'm not comfortable with L-2 in a situation where scum can probably get away with quickhammering.

Then they out themselves

They don't tho

Because in classic you fashion you're going to tunnel me tomorrow if Ari flips town even if I'm saying not to lynch him right now and after I flip you're gonna be like yeah nah see see I have been telling u all for YEARS I was better than RC and I just proved it then ur gonna derptunnel the ppl who don't kiss up to you and lose in classic you fashion. I've been here b4.

[RadiantCowbells]

Some 1 else should unvote pls.

[RadiantCowbells]

I love you ok bye

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm going to step in 1 hour early because the results of the experiment are already clearly visible and I want to catch certain people before they go to bed.

In over 48 hours even if you count my posts, town made less than 50 posts

Before you say 'yeah but you created a gamestate where that happens!!!' this is the second time we ran this experiment. I stepped away for a day before and we got less than a page. Barely over half a page.

So.. I realize that this isn't the most fun for everyone and I get that but this W means a lot to me because me and NSG have struggled as town together in the past and we really want to not lose this game and with only 1 day for us to solve I really want to cram an entire games worth of content into it so I can leave y'all with something.

And like it or not, forcing everyone who posts to engage with us is better than them not engaging anyone at all (which is what ends up happening) and just having posting into a void and yeah.

[RadiantCowbells]

Aside for that comment, I have little more to say until Ari gets back besides to say that you should not put anyone to L-2 still and that me and NSG are going to work on an as concise as possible cliff notes of our reads/reasoning so that it can be referred to without having to go through our whole ISO looking for reads/evidence/etc.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also UNVOTE:

If Ari's catch-up is okay we have a ~brand new~ wagon to push

[RadiantCowbells]

In the end I think this wouldn't have happened anywhere near the same way if town correctly townread me and there's enough really obvious reasons to townread me that there's beyond no justification for the fact that I'm not townread.

Like that response or don't like it it's the only one that I'm giving.

Scum chose to create this gamestate to take advantage of the rift between the rest of the town leaders and me when I had game winning reads and the rest of you didn't.

Not only is the game threatening to BoP lynch me, you aren't even threatening to BoP lynch me on my strongest scumread. Just... think about that for a second. This wouldn't happen to Flavor Leaf. This wouldn't happen to LLD. This wouldn't happen to MariaR. Why am I in this position?

[RadiantCowbells]

Like it or not you guys refusing to townread me was this towns weakness and scum are exploiting the shit out of it.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like when Duck flips scum think long and hard about why exactly we are in the gamestate we are in. We're here because my very existence in spite of my scumhunting prowess is an exploitable weakness when I'm paired with players who don't understand how to win games with town me.

You and Mathblade are weapons that scum are using against town right now

[RadiantCowbells]

Literally

If I was the only strong town personality here

Duck would be dead and we'd already be on the path to victory.

[RadiantCowbells]

I am 100% confident on not one but two scum slots

Duckling and Plum

But we are probably going to lunch outside of them because...

You feel justified in your position right now but postgame come back and take a look and think... why exactly?

[RadiantCowbells]

The answer is because Duck convinced the game that me being scum was a realistic position and that not listening to me because I'm pushing "policy lynches" or whatever

Duck completely outplayed you Skitter and you should recognize that in hindsight.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm not saying you're a bad player, far from it.

But your brain just shuts off when I am involved.

[RadiantCowbells]

I am probably not being fair. I'm stressed and sad.

[RadiantCowbells]

Yeah I am done mafia after this.

Just pretend this conversation didn't happen

[RadiantCowbells]

In an AU where I could go back and never effort as scum it would literally be the easiest decision that I have ever made.

[RadiantCowbells]

Is your previously given readslist still accurate

[RadiantCowbells]

Skitter I'll vote either of {Plum/Tris}, preference Plum but I really want us to be wagoning something that's not Ari.

NSG still thinks he's town and I just don't feel it strongly enough to bet the game on it rn because I think that ML does a ton of damage.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think we can mislynch any potential town that isn't Ari today and still win and I think that if Ari is scum it doesn't benefit us much to lynch him today because scum have already lost.

What is better in your opinion RC? A NL or a ML?

Interestingly on this specific D1 I would say that mislynching Ari is worse than no lynching.

[RadiantCowbells]

So like if you think I was bussing Ari and got cold feet ig I can't help either of you but I'm willing to follow Skitters reads (not just because -Skitter-, I agree with them, Plum and Tris are my 2nd and 4th most likely scumflips)

[RadiantCowbells]

Most guides weren't written for me.

[RadiantCowbells]

This is all contiguous on Ari not scumclaiming on entry though

VOTE: Plum

[RadiantCowbells]

Please don't assume that I don't respect you because I act like I don't respect you, as little sense as that makes on the surface.

[RadiantCowbells]

The little known secret is that I actually care a lot about other people's reads, I just present them as my own later.

[RadiantCowbells]

For example I didnt need to check your iso to know that your top scumreads were teacher (comment about unsurety on other townreads) Flopz tier down Tris plum. I could have checked that obviously but at whatever point you know I'm town I promise I didn't.

I just... trust myself to listen to your reads more than I trust you to listen to mine.

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay I had to go back and check and you had Ico where I put Flopz.

So that doesn't exactly prove what I wanted to prove but still.

[RadiantCowbells]

Even if I'm scum making you mislynch one person you're still hypothetically rid of scum RC at an extremely early point in the game.

I can't make you stop being scared that I'm scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

The perspective I think you should take on this

Is the potential damage of giving me 1 mislynch and then being rid of scum!me is significantly less than the potential damage of not trusting me and never lynching my scumreads and never having concrete evidence that I'm scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

Then why not lynch Ari who is so much more alignment indicative of you than the Plum sheep? And actually has enough votes to possibly happen?

Who you yourself has noted associations between Ari and Duck?

Because I can't say I'm 100% sure they're scum and I don't want their alignment used as a litmus test for mine?

Literally why would I want someone I'm not 100% sure is scum to be used to try to BoP lynch me.

In an ideal world literally only my top scumread (TW) would be something I can be BoPed on but I guess this game is so distrusting of me I can only get my second scumread.

[RadiantCowbells]

The perspective I think you should take on this

Is the potential damage of giving me 1 mislynch and then being rid of scum!me is significantly less than the potential damage of not trusting me and never lynching my scumreads and never having concrete evidence that I'm scum.

That’s exactly what lynching Ari does imho.

No, it doesn't, because the best player on my team doesn't even think Ari is scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

How would you feel if I lynched someone that you weren't sure was scum then said ALRIGHT MATH CONFSCUM LETS GETEM.

Let’s assume Ari is town and you’re town.

The knowledge would also help your reads for Duck and who could be scum with Duck and help your reads.

This hinges on me NOT getting mislynched and handing scum an excessively lucrative twofer that also discredits my read on Duckling which he is more than proficient enough to capitalize on to not get lynched. Like. If I could be 100% sure I got nightkilled after Ari then this is an entirely different ballpark where I can afford this but the gamestate is one where town can't afford that mislynch because you're still trying to tie my alignment to the result of it.

[RadiantCowbells]

2. Why are we not testing this on ari again? At this point he's a proxy sort for like half the game. Like i'm less worried of u deciding to not bus him but of you realizing that if ari flips town you're just gonna be next in this gamestate

Yeah

This is exactly the problem?

NSG thinks he's town and scum just wins the game off of his mislynch?

[RadiantCowbells]

Skitter

You know I change my mind

And you know I change my mind more often as town than scum

And you know that as the game progresses my reads get better

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I'm still offering BoP lynches on me

I just want to actually lynch someone I scumread instead of someone NSG is saying no no no bad idea

[RadiantCowbells]

Like... do you not get how fucking unfair it is to try to call me scum from the result of a lynch I didn't want?

[RadiantCowbells]

It's like 1am and i'm not sure i'm awake enough to follow what you even want to be happening rn

I want us to wagon Plum

I want to switch back to Ari if I think he's scum after his catch-up.

I want to lunch Plum otherwise.

In an ideal world, I want to speedlynch Duck under the guarantee that he flips scum or you can lynch me but I can't have that.

[RadiantCowbells]

I would say if I screamed all day person X was scum and then suddenly changed my mind I would take responsibility for my posts and then review based on what happened over the day. And based on what you present tomorrow with results or what not. It depends.

Simple answer? No.

I don't care what my reads were, I care what they are at EoD.

This is how I play and you can track it over a billion town games and I don't even have the ability to effectively fake these types of reversals as scum.

I get your reads change but dont act like it's ridiculous for other people to still want ari to proxy sort you given how the you/tw/ari thing went down

In my humble opinion

The idea of proxy sorting me is ridiculous because you should already see that I'm town.

But if you're gonna proxy sort me, it should be off of someone that I think is actually going to flip scum at the end of day.

I don't think contrary to what you're saying that under any circumstances any other player would be held to the insane burden of proficiency standard of "you must have not have had a wrong scumread in the past" when you just played a game where I went from bad reads to good reads to lockguilty on scum.

The truth is Ari I just thought there's no way that Duck would do this in that situation as scum unless Ari was his buddy but NSG had a good comparison to a previous game where Duck deliberately made me think the wrong person was his partner and basically said "ok like if you want a BOP scumread it should be on your actual scumread not the person you think is associated"

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm literally claiming a guilty.

I would rather you vote me right now than not put any of your own thoughts aside and speedlynch TW.

The simple answer is I have a ton of information that I can't express without bringing the game into unhappy places.

[RadiantCowbells]

Duck scumread is the most important thing to me.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like if your plan otherwise is to not lynch duck no matter what I'd rather you just vote me and I can selfvote and we can end this phase my conftowning me into Tw->Plum

[RadiantCowbells]

I legit just don't want to play mafia unless I can be IC.

Ether needs to host another The Odds and give me 5%

[RadiantCowbells]

Bro

This idea that I can't see Ari scum is outlandish

I see the evidence I brought it up in the first place

I just can't bet the game on that?

Do you not understand that everything you see as toxic about my play fundamentally stems from my not being townread, stems from me having to throw my slot on the line to be taken seriously?

I have to force my way or the highway or I risk becoming a mislynch with irrelevant reads.

[RadiantCowbells]

I have to be perfectionist as fuck here because if I don't town ends up losing. I need an outcome to this day that leads into Duck lynch and Ari isn't always it right now.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I can literally case Plum right now

SOLELY on Ari associatives

Because I've been keeping (him being likely scum) in mind and ive read all of it

Good enough just isn't for me, not right now, not in this gamestate.

If you want good enough to be good enough for me, you gotta change the cards that I see on the table.

[RadiantCowbells]

See this from my point of view instead of yours for literally 10 seconds, that's all that I ask for.

[RadiantCowbells]

Actually it's Plum with TW unless they both are. Let me show you.

[RadiantCowbells]

Ok I won't give you evidence then.

I'm not gonna rage at you and get banned but I'm certainly not going to take you calling me bad when in 100% of our town-town games my years have been far far superior to you're and you said that my reads were bad in all of them too. You have negative self awareness.

[RadiantCowbells]

Sorry Math I'm literally just better than you and you're not at all qualified to judge the quality of my reads so like say what you want but I guarantee you people after this game will be talking about how bad your reads were.

[RadiantCowbells]

I have only had 1 game this year where postgame didn't vindicate me.

I can't change your thoughts now. I doubt that your thoughts will change after flips are out and your reads are confirmed shit. You'll just blame everyone else like you always do.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't want to commit evidence before Ari has gotten back.

[RadiantCowbells]

Everyone knows how to get on your good side.

Duckling spending half the game making simpering Oh you're my SAVIOR Mathblade thank you for your HEROICS and you're just like yeah that is absolutely the towniest town to ever town town. Lesson learned from Civ mafia? Nothing.

[RadiantCowbells]

Actually

[RadiantCowbells]

Ari is literally that person by nature.

He would do it as scum. He would do it as town.

TW doing it is very much not standard TW fare.

[RadiantCowbells]

And uhh I genuinely tried to be nice in the early game before this devolved into your wanting to lynch all my townreads, hard defending my scumreads, and trying to BoP lynch me on a flip I didn't want.

Man Math you understand that every single time I read one of your posts I want to like get angry or something because you in mafia are just offensive to me. I'm sorry. I dislike everything about the way you play mafia and how you see yourself in mafia. Me containing it as much as I have is a miracle tbh.

[RadiantCowbells]

You need to realize

That you yourself are the reason that I can't vote Ari

[RadiantCowbells]

I truly personally still think it's Ari Plum TW.

I can case any 1 of the 3 off of associatives with both of the other 2.

But you have on so tight a leash that I have to create all this discord because I can't take that whatever % of the game just being thrown.

[RadiantCowbells]

Eh
I'm really not sure who the third is
{plum tw} + like teacher=Ari>Tris I guess

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm gonna bet on NSG is better than me and go with her
{Plum/teacher/TW}

[RadiantCowbells]

Plums a bit of a posting non-entity to me. Like they are posting, and jiving, but nothing's sticking to the me or the gamestate.

Actually this is honestly more SvS than anything Ari did.