MS Fantasy Camp 2: Reaper's Tale! (Finished!)

[Flipping Awesome]

You guys won't believe how happy I am that we drew town! All that noise last night was me excitedly high-fiving Penguin about our incredible luck drawing town in this playerlist.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

You guys won't believe how happy I am that we drew town! All that noise last night was me excitedly high-fiving Penguin about our incredible luck drawing town in this playerlist.

~ F-16

Should I be happy about drawing town?
I still am unsure.

Of course you should be. I don't want to have to deal with scum-you again. What do I get if I beat Tammy/Empire to reading you accurately?

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

You guys won't believe how happy I am that we drew town! All that noise last night was me excitedly high-fiving Penguin about our incredible luck drawing town in this playerlist.

~ F-16

I couldn't hear much last night over empires non stop text messages.

Are they of the "

Damn, we drew scum, we should have /in'd to replace like Regfan did, hopefully you can carry me with your awesome scumgame

" variety?

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

you mean you aren't going to wuss out and read the easy-to-read head?

nice.

Nope. I am in the big leagues now. I am not waiting for ffery to read your slot when I am perfectly capable of reading you.
~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

you mean you aren't going to wuss out and read the easy-to-read head?

nice.

Nope. I am in the big leagues now. I am not waiting for ffery to read your slot when I am perfectly capable of reading you.
~ F-16

THAT WAS FFERY AND NOT ME I DEMAND YOU READ ME

I WILL. AND I DEMAND YOU STAY ACTIVE AS FUCK THIS GAME AND NOT TUNE OUT IF YOU ARE TOWN.
~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

F-16, where did you go?

Went out to grab lunch but I'm back. Let's keep talking until we are absolutely sure about each other's alignment. I'll comment on your wall in a bit but you don't have a read on me, wtf?

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Nacho, how the heck do you not have a read on me? This was probably one of my best openings and I think that I already reacted in ways that are alignment indicative and I am surprised you can't see the genuineness here. I am much more obvtown than Tammy. How does she get an obvtown read but I don't? But I agree on your LLD and Tammy reads though.
~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Nacho, I haven't seen anything from Sixty that would indicate town or scum and I am not really following your reasoning there and I am not getting it. I am null on them.

I agree with the LLD reasoning and that she used her ability in a pro-town way. I assumed she'd be difficult to read but most of her posting felt townish and pro-active. I especially like the muted reaction to Nero in Post 69 because his post about the IC seemed awkward and the kind of thing that people might jump on. I am not massively certain in this read but I lean town.

Tammy is fairly obvious. I really like her reaction to me in Post 51 and in general, her overall tone, coming into the game lighthearted and happy.

I don't have a read on Tim Howard. Nero Cain might be town but it is gut at this point.

Why make such an extensive reads list so early in the game? Don't you think waiting for a while would have given you a larger sample of posts to develop those reads?

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Nacho, how the heck do you not have a read on me? This was probably one of my best openings and I think that I already reacted in ways that are alignment indicative and I am surprised you can't see the genuineness here. I am much more obvtown than Tammy. How does she get an obvtown read but I don't? But I agree on your LLD and Tammy reads though.
~ F-16

I'm happier calling you obvtown when I have an opening like this + game solving time with Nacho.

Sorry, I am not following what you mean.
~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

I especially like the muted reaction to Nero in Post 69 because his post about the IC seemed awkward and the kind of thing that people might jump on.

"oh fuck why" seems pretty ambiguous. So IDK how you think that's "muted".

It felt like townie exasperation at something silly and non-alignment indicative as opposed to scum opportunism by looking for an opening to attack you.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

(Tammy left me a message saying F-16's entrance made her twitch but I disagree, will have to sort this out with her when we're both online).

That's ridiculous. Why is she not talking to me about it?
~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

That's ridiculous. Why is she not talking to me about it?
~ F-16

Uh, because she's not here? Duh?

No, I meant talk to me when she was here earlier.
~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

It gives her hives.
It gives her hives when he does it as town too, so no cigar.

If she can't read me off of my best opening ever, then she'll never be able to read me.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

I don't know if everyone is mega-trolling me or what especially Tammy and Nacho. I experiment with a variety of openings in games. Sometimes I prefer to hang back and post after RVS is over so I can start straight away with content, usually when I don't trust the players to read me and get into pointless back-and-forths in RVS that takes away from more contentful posts. Here, I decided to jump in and be myself as much as possible because I expected to be read easily and accurately considering the playerbase (especially Empire, Tammy, and Nacho), and so far Empire is the only one who seems to have read me. I also entered the game confident and happy and Tammy of all people should know that it only means one thing for my alignment especially in a playerlist like this one and all she can come up with is it made her "twitch?" Also, don't like Tierce's/ffery's suspicion of me but I don't expect the same degree of being accurately read as from Tammy/Nacho so I am not sure what to make of that.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

F-16 YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY TOWN PLEASE START META DIVING

I'll meta-dive when I feel like it and you know for a fact that I can do it as scum. I expected you to read me based on my tone which you know I can't fake. I'll re-read the thread and post my thoughts soon.
~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Making a fuss that you're not being Townread off something that is really easy to fake is #YOLObadposting again.

By "opening" I was referring to my first series of posts, not just the first one. I don't expect to be townread because I called myself town. I expect to be townread because of my early interactions which I know I wouldn't be able to fake, not with that tone, and not the way I did it.

@ Nacho, I'll get to the meta-dives soon. Looking forward to it.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

So, I was going to wait to run this by Penguin but I felt the irresistible urge to beat Empire to an effort post especially after Nacho already beat me to it so here are my (overexplained) reads as of this point.

TOWN

1) Cerulean [Empire/Tammy]:

• Empire jumping in to make posts with poor internet access feels very town especially after Tammy let everyone know that he won't post till tomorrow night/Monday and it would have been super-easy for scum-Empire to come up with a pro-town looking reads list then, and posting at uncomfortable times to get his reads out there is a massive, massive town-tell for him.
  
• Tammy's entrance to the game hit all the right notes I'd expect from Tammy as town and her interaction with Nacho and me solidified this read. I particularly like the boldness in Post 51 in reaction to my post and her Post 77 to LLD and Sangres saying they are unlikely to be partners fits in with my understanding of how she thinks about her reads as town and is completely unnecessary as scum. Tammy, your twitch about me is bullshit though so you better retract it.
  
• I also agree with most of the reads Empire posted in Post 136, I am assuming it's his list of town-reads and I can understand the vote on Tim Howard considering most of what they posted didn't feel overwhelming townish or pro-active. I'll POE and follow up on them at some point. Empire's follow up of telling Nacho that his townread on Tim Howard is lame in Post 163 also feels really confident and unlike what Empire would do as scum.

2) Sangres [fferyllt/Nachomamma8]:

• I like Nacho's initial posts making fun of Empire and his ease and confidence in entering the game. I also liked his reaction test in Post 56 and his efforts to sort me felt very town and I haven't seen anything like it in any of his scumgames and I absolutely love the "
  you are more obvtown than Tammy
  " as it would be much more easy for scum-Nacho to wait to see if I get pressured and whiteknight me for the cred, and I buy that his initial "no read" was to get a reaction and see if he can read me more easily based off of that.
  
• I felt that ffery's Post 28 was more likely to come from town than scum as she knows I can read her better than Nacho and I don't think she'd want to draw undue attention there especially after Micro 252 where I initially scumread scum-Sangres based on her posts and Nacho came in and changed that to a strong townread.
  
• Nacho's reads list in Post 99 made a lot of sense and I agree with most of it and not in a "politically correct" way with the right reasons but more of pointing out things that I initially missed and skimmed and came to agree with upon a re-read and it matches with his "
  F-16, where did you go
  " in Post 97 as it looks like he wanted to sort me and I like his wanting me to meta-dive so he can read other people (but that's probably because I love positive attention). I guess I might be conf-biasing this read a bit but I can
  feel
  it that Sangres is town and I want them to be town and I think that they are town and Cerulean also townreading them takes away some of my paranoia.

3) Lady Lambdadelta:

• Her role and the way she outed that role makes a lot less sense as scum than town and I agree with Nacho's point about it. I can see the town motivation for wanting to inform players about what will happen in the event of a no lynch whereas if she was scum, it would be much more optimal play to hide it. While it is possible she could have outed for towncred, I think she as scum would be perfectly capable of looking town and wouldn't need to use her role in a sub-optimal way.
  
• The "Oh, fuck why?" response in Post 69 felt town because Nero's IC post came across as somewhat awkward and I thought that she would jump on it if scum but I guess it is partly colored by my expectations that Nero may be an easy target for scum to push. I like that tonally, it came across as restrained. I am not too confident on this but I overall read LLD as town so I am decently confident about my townread.

4) Nero Cain

• Nero Cain's aggression towards Katsuki felt natural and relatable and his aggressive vote at Nacho calling him "scumcho" also felt like very townie aggression and reminded me of the way his hydra went after Bert in NY169. I'll probably check later on how he makes pushes as scum to be more certain but it overall came across as very carefree and unconcerned with appearances.
  
• Nero's attempts to crumb his role felt natural and his wanting to give as many clues about it in Post 67 and Post 74 felt very genuine and at the very least definitely like he was crumbing a real role as opposed to a fake-claim. While it isn't impossible that it is his real role as scum, I figured scum would want to keep more options open for later on in the game and Nero Cain doesn't feel like a player who would want to aggressively crumb this early in the game.

5) Zdenek

• I can see where Zdenek is coming from with his vote on Katsuki in Post 89 and I was mildly concerned with Katsuki going with the flow and attacking Sangres and I like that Zdenek responded to it with a vote. From what I've seen of Katsuki as scum in Death Note where I was town and in Anything Goes which I spectated, he does tend to bandwagon, predict the flow of wagons and often hops on at opportune times and I was concerned with him voting Sangres as their wagon picked up.
  
• Zdenek also makes a good point in Post 90 about not no lynching in MYLO because it makes sense to wary of it if she was scum.
  Zdenek's questioning of Nacho felt like he was exploring a genuine misunderstanding and his wanting to change pace with Tierce felt vaguely townish and his overall posting feels reasonably genuine and town motivated.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Katsuki, I'll check your meta at some point and we'll vote when we want.

Shadoweh, while I think it is possible that Nero Cain is an IC, I also considered the possibility that Faraday and Mina are trolling us by putting in one player in a different color. It fits with what I would expect of Faraday's personality anyways.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

We're here as well if anyone wants to discuss anything.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Empire and I are going to have a talk about his planned filtering of my posts and come to a different agreement if he's not going to actually bother to relay my entire actual thoughts. (Also, I saw later that he said I was at class?!? I've been talking about my total girlie day for weeks and apparently he hasn't been listening.) I didn't say anything when I was here because I didn't think of it and it didn't register. I was getting ready to leave when posting earlier and wasn't putting much thought into things, just having fun interacting with people. However, as I was walking out the door, I was like WAIT A SECOND! didn't Falcon enter Attack on Titan saying he was happy about being town or something? and then I remembered when metaing you during that game I found a scum game that was still going on in which you hydrad with someone, but I'm not sure of the game, that you had entered the game in a similar way, so I quickly posted to empire that it was something I wanted to look back at to make sure of because it could be the sign of something.

I do like your response to me though, but I know my weaknesses and wanting you to be town is one of them. I don't know why you wouldn't expect for me to want to be sure.

I know I did it in Attack on Titan and ETL's Resistance (that must have been the game you meta'd), in AOT, I was buddying you and Pieguyn and in the other game, it was RedCoyote. But it is not something that's alignment indicative for me and I've done it plenty of times offsite when I was town (especially when FourTrouble played with me), we usually opened by asking each other if we were town to see the response and then moved from there so we pretty much had to do it as scum to fit the pattern. We also spent plenty of time saying we were happy to be town, I'll give you the links if you want.

It is not so much calling myself town which I could do as either alignment but the genuineness in my tone and you are one of the people that I expected to pick up on it because you know when I am being genuine. I'd understand if I had an off game or entered badly or kept some of my thoughts to myself etc. But here, I just jumped into the thread totally being myself and completely transparent about everything when I started talking to you and Nacho so I guess I expected something more a "twitch" although there seems to be more to it than that.

Pedit: Guys, chill. Tierce, I found Tammy's catchups useful so far so just ignore them if you don't want to read them I guess.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

It looks like Empire is probably the only one who will engage my wall

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Shadoweh, can you walk me through your thought process of criticizing my posts at first and then turning around and townreading them? (Penguin had a few thoughts in the QT but she said she'll post tonight so you should probably be able to interact with her then).

Venmar, I'd like to hear what of Nacho's posts you found objectionable at first and how you now changed your mind.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Katsuki is likely scum because of his bad vote on Sangres, opportunistic hopping onto wagons.

Tim Howard as well for his poor pushes on Sangres and Cerulean.

I don't have much other than an "off" feeling but I'll get a better idea of who is scum once more people post.

Venmar, you said Sangres 295 is good but what was it in your post 294 that you saw about Sangres that made you unvote?

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Your story actually does check out on a re-read. You seem to have unvoted because others have pointed out to you that it is not Nacho's scum meta either and the town read came later after you had already unvoted. How many games have you played with him with either of you being town/scum? Can you post a few links?

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Shadoweh, I actually think I was very unpopular at the beginning of the game considering only Nacho and Empire were strongly townreading me. Hopefully that'll change and our alignment will become more obvious as the game goes on though. I agree with most of your other reads. I am not sure what you are trying to say about Venmar exactly.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Sorry ffery, I didn't mean to ignore your posts. I more wanted to get to the bottom of this:

I pride myself on being able to read Nacho very well and I guess this doesn't connect too much with his scum game either.

At first glance, it looks townish because he is asserting meta-authority over Nacho which makes him somewhat liable if he is scum and incorrectly accusing you. But I am not sure how much to factor it in.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Venmar's Day 1 in a nutshell: "I have no scumreads and I must talk about how Town Nacho is."
Maybe you should try reading someone else in the game instead. No, really, talk about how you read other people.
As tempting as moving is, I just got on this wagon and a lack of posting is never a reason to move in my books.

It's not Venmar's lack of posting that makes me leery of him, it's what's actually in those posts. The prioritizing of reading Nacho-sangres, yet once he gets a town read on them, he doesn't use it. Like, there's no reach-out, no attempt to interact. Which if he knows the slot that well I'd expect.

Katsuki feels worst to me here. Untrod Tripod and Plum also read scummy, although I don't know that I've persuaded F-16 of that yet WRT Plum. I like the Tim Howard wagon as well, and based on where they are in the VC from 304, both the Katsuki and Tim Howard wagons are town driven, with my weakest read being Sixty on either wagon.

VOTE: Katsuki

Zdenek, was your CDB mention a throwaway choice or a scum read? Because if anything I think his first post skewed town for him.

--PA

[Flipping Awesome]

It's not Venmar's lack of posting that makes me leery of him, it's what's actually in those posts. The prioritizing of reading Nacho-sangres, yet once he gets a town read on them, he doesn't use it. Like, there's no reach-out, no attempt to interact. Which if he knows the slot that well I'd expect.

Why would you expect that?

Because he prioritized reading you to the exclusion of doing much of anything else. I'd think he'd do something with the conclusion. Scum read, vote. Town read, get some traction.

--PA

[Flipping Awesome]

Do you have any thoughts on Shadoweh so far? I am borderline null/town on her but I am not sure yet.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

I thought it felt town too at first but I'm going to check a few of her past games to get a better read.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Katsuki, everything you've posted has been useless for anyone trying to get a read on you or in response to people voting you. And the responses to people voting you are apathetic and unpersuasive. Zero scum hunting. There's no town mindset in evidence, and even your vote comes with no further information. As such, I have no problem with lynching you.

More later after F-16 and I touch base on a couple points.

--PA

[Flipping Awesome]

We interrupt your daily woof to point this out--Subject: Mafiascum Fantasy Camp 2 - Day 1 Begins!

Flipping Awesome has probably fallen asleep.

???

I initially thought this was Faraday being funny about a prod, but they posted yesterday, this makes no sense.

You two--please post within the next 24 hours if you can.

HEY
LISTEN
WAKE UP

zzzzzz...

ZZZZZZZ...

:jerks awake:

Yeah, no, we weren't prodded. We just fall asleep sometimes.

We'll be around synching and all tonight, but in the meantime, someone asked if I'd played with Katsuki before. Yes, in Anything Goes, and while I paid more attention to mastin in that hydra (where they were scum) nothing here is inconsistent with scum-Katsuki, so I'm not inclined to ignore his lack of scum hunting. I also recall him being more relevantly engaged under an alt in Mini 1551, so I believe in his ability to play in such a way as town.

Elsewhere Zdenek is becoming a stronger town read for me, and I still don't get good vibes from Venmar. I'll read more closely tonight in the hopes of being more useful.

--PA

[Flipping Awesome]

Ugh I feel checked out of this game.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

@ Sixty, falling asleep is part of our role.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Ugh I feel checked out of this game.

~ F-16

*twitch*

I'll take your *twitch* and raise you a *sigh*

[Flipping Awesome]

Okay, that made me laugh and you know what that means to people that make me laugh in mafia?

[Flipping Awesome]

Cut: STOP SPAM POSTING USELESS SHIT.

It is only useless if it is not alignment-revealing info. For instance, I know that scum-Tammy wouldn't *twitch* at me.

[Flipping Awesome]

Okay, so where I was at before I checked out: I was hard-townreading Cerulean, Sangres, LLD, Zdenek, and Nero Cain. Penguin had concerns about the last two but I think she's coming around.

She is still scumreading Katsuki but I really thought Katsuki understanding why I was scumreading him but wanting Penguin's reasons felt very town. So, we're still going to discuss that read before we decide where we want to go with that.

I lean slight scum on Venmar just because so many of the things feels like snarky discredits than actual attempts to engage arguments against him. But this is something I really want to read closely and verify with his meta on and discuss after finishing reading.

I am null on you (Shadoweh) but I really did skim this game and I am going to re-read more closely and probably read a few of your games before we come to a conclusion.

I felt checked out because no one really engaged with our slot after townbinning us and I was hoping this game would turn into a massive meta discussion.

[Flipping Awesome]

I don't want you to meta dive so I can read you, I want you to meta dive so I can read others.

I am really curious why you didn't comment on my analysis after you basically asked for it.

I've decided on my own prerogative that Flipping Awesome gets added to my Town spreadsheet, tentatively until his other half is confirmed to be playing and not locked in a basement for fear of making scum posts.

What's your follow up on this? Your read development on us was one of the things I found hazy and I was hoping you could articulate your thought process more clearly once you heard from Penguin.

but actually Cerulean's early posts are super bad so I really just want to keep my vote where it is because it's actually scum guys

Elaborate on why. Have you played with either head before?

even the katsuki vote, flawed as it is, looks town to me

Why is it flawed? Are you townreading Katsuki? If so, why?

Have you just not played with Nacho or something? He's pretty boring as scum.

I'd like this explained as well in a meta-context. What is your experience reading Nacho.

Pedit: Okay, start by explaining your Nacho read to me while I catch up. I want to know why you said Nacho's scum game is "boring" and almost writing them off as town so easily when Nacho is at least decently skilled as scum that it would take a little more time to read him unless you know exactly what you are looking for.

[Flipping Awesome]

Re-reading, I think CDB is town. Still discussing with Penguin to solidify the read based on past games. It mostly has to do with his push on Shadoweh in post 327 feeling town.

Tammy, what are your thoughts on UT?

[Flipping Awesome]

Oh, and Empire, I was in that Death Note game you linked for Katsuki. Part of my meta-scum read came from that but I am not as certain anymore so I'll post more thoughts on that in a bit.

[Flipping Awesome]

I'm still catching up and refreshing the last page, but Tammy, please don't leave. Shadoweh, take a breath and chill out. Here's something that would cheer you up: [youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbFfIoRGGsc[/youtube]

I don't have a read on UT yet. He somewhat feels town but that's just gut. I wanted your opinion because I was following the Reckoning where a ton of people were reading him as scum but you read him as town and weak neighborized him so I thought your insight would help either solidify that read or make me reset. But, I'll wait.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

I'm still catching up and refreshing the last page, but Tammy, please don't leave. Shadoweh, take a breath and chill out. Here's something that would cheer you up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbFfIoRGGsc

I don't have a read on UT yet. He somewhat feels town but that's just gut. I wanted your opinion because I was following the Reckoning where a ton of people were reading him as scum but you read him as town and weak neighborized him so I thought your insight would help either solidify that read or make me reset. But, I'll wait.

~ F-16

Clearly, I'm bad at posting videos.

[Flipping Awesome]

Okay, here are some games I intend to read (mostly for own reference

and Empire's if he's feeling masochistic enough to read them

).

1) ChannelDelibird

TOWN: Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets, Mini 1501: We're on a Boat, Mini 1532: Mac's Mini Normal
SCUM: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone

2) Katsuki

TOWN: Mini 1543: Natirasha's On Parole, Dark Age of the Law Mafia, Red Wine Mafia, (another town game that I'll link later)
SCUM: Mini 1518: Death Note Mafia, Anything Goes Mafia

3) Venmar

TOWN: Micro 260: The X-Men, Mini 1526: OC Remix
SCUM: Micro 53: Minimalist Mafia

4) Shadoweh

TOWN: /in-vitational 12: Mafia in #yoloville, A uPick of Ice and Fire
SCUM: The Fall of Gondolin, Mini 1489: VisCon: Murder in Wingate Mansion

5) Plum

TOWN: Mini 1537: Attack on Titan, Mini 1538: Powerful Wizards
SCUM: Mini 1501: We're on a Boat

The first Harry Potter game had Penguin and CDB as scumbuddies. I read it a few months ago. The second Harry Potter game had all of me, Penguin and CDB as town and he was fairly obvious town there. BUT, I was more confident in my read there than I am here. The other town games were ones that I followed but want to go back and re-read. Assuming we solidify our read on CDB, we are willing to take his word on Nexus/Quadz for D1. Katsuki is a more major project and I've played a few games with him and spectated others so I'll figure out where I stand after looking through these games.

@ Ffery

, I am looking forward to discussing his meta too. I see you played a lot of games with him. You said you were waiting for Nacho but I'd like to hear your thoughts as well. Why wait for Nacho? Penguin's played games with him as well so that'll be a nice discussion. I am linking Venmar's Micro 53 mostly because I want to read Empire's case and Penguin was in the X-Men Micro. Also, interesting thing about Shadoweh is that she is somewhat dominating? as scum. See Fall of Gondolin where Tierce and Shadoweh basically directed the town in the initial phases. I'd like to hear your thoughts about that game as well Tierce, I was following it. I haven't played with Shadoweh before but Penguin was in the invitational game. Penguin found Plum scummy but I'm not sure. I was in Attack of Titan as scum when she was town and read the On a Boat game.

---

On our other reads, we still feel good about Cerulean, LLD, Sangres although with a few paranoid moments about Sangres. I feel great about Zdenek and Nero Cain and but Penguin has reservations so we're taking more of a wait and see approach and maybe meta-dive if it comes to that. I'd like to hear as many opinions as I can about these two players.

I am trusting CDB's read of Tim Howard pending a CDB meta-dive and Tammy's read on UT for D1. I think Sixty is town because Empire says they are basically. That leaves Chamber, NS, Kanye, and Reck. All null for now and will probably get to them once they deliver more content.

[Flipping Awesome]

Lynch All These People

Nero Cain (but I haven't really been reading Nero Cain's posts ITT)

Can you elaborate on this?
~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

So, I am nearly caught up. Chamber is holy fuck town and I'll discuss this finding with Penguin for consensus.

Also, I read through Nero Cain's scumgame and realized that the markers that I'm using for him aren't as good as I originally thought so I need a reset especially since my other head disagrees.

[Flipping Awesome]

Also, I read through Nero Cain's scumgame and realized that the markers that I'm using for him aren't as good as I originally thought so I need a reset especially since my other head disagrees.

Or maybe PA is just an idiot and you shouldn't listen to her. Now vote scum Venmar with me.

Heh, of all the people in this game I expected to call me an idiot justifiably, you didn't actually crack the top ten. And if you read what F-16 said, you'll note that he determined that he'd called you town too hastily all on his own. And while I know F-16 has updated reads incoming, you'd actually be better off appealing to me to join you on the Venmar wagon.

--PA

[Flipping Awesome]

Continuing from Post 221, minus the townread on Nero Cain.

TOWN:

Spoiler: Past reads

1) Cerulean [Empire/Tammy]:

• Empire jumping in to make posts with poor internet access feels very town especially after Tammy let everyone know that he won't post till tomorrow night/Monday and it would have been super-easy for scum-Empire to come up with a pro-town looking reads list then, and posting at uncomfortable times to get his reads out there is a massive, massive town-tell for him.
  
• Tammy's entrance to the game hit all the right notes I'd expect from Tammy as town and her interaction with Nacho and me solidified this read. I particularly like the boldness in Post 51 in reaction to my post and her Post 77 to LLD and Sangres saying they are unlikely to be partners fits in with my understanding of how she thinks about her reads as town and is completely unnecessary as scum. Tammy, your twitch about me is bullshit though so you better retract it.
  
• I also agree with most of the reads Empire posted in Post 136, I am assuming it's his list of town-reads and I can understand the vote on Tim Howard considering most of what they posted didn't feel overwhelming townish or pro-active. I'll POE and follow up on them at some point. Empire's follow up of telling Nacho that his townread on Tim Howard is lame in Post 163 also feels really confident and unlike what Empire would do as scum.

2) Sangres [fferyllt/Nachomamma8]:

• I like Nacho's initial posts making fun of Empire and his ease and confidence in entering the game. I also liked his reaction test in Post 56 and his efforts to sort me felt very town and I haven't seen anything like it in any of his scumgames and I absolutely love the "
  you are more obvtown than Tammy
  " as it would be much more easy for scum-Nacho to wait to see if I get pressured and whiteknight me for the cred, and I buy that his initial "no read" was to get a reaction and see if he can read me more easily based off of that.
  
• I felt that ffery's Post 28 was more likely to come from town than scum as she knows I can read her better than Nacho and I don't think she'd want to draw undue attention there especially after Micro 252 where I initially scumread scum-Sangres based on her posts and Nacho came in and changed that to a strong townread.
  
• Nacho's reads list in Post 99 made a lot of sense and I agree with most of it and not in a "politically correct" way with the right reasons but more of pointing out things that I initially missed and skimmed and came to agree with upon a re-read and it matches with his "
  F-16, where did you go
  " in Post 97 as it looks like he wanted to sort me and I like his wanting me to meta-dive so he can read other people (but that's probably because I love positive attention). I guess I might be conf-biasing this read a bit but I can
  feel
  it that Sangres is town and I want them to be town and I think that they are town and Cerulean also townreading them takes away some of my paranoia.

3) Lady Lambdadelta:

• Her role and the way she outed that role makes a lot less sense as scum than town and I agree with Nacho's point about it. I can see the town motivation for wanting to inform players about what will happen in the event of a no lynch whereas if she was scum, it would be much more optimal play to hide it. While it is possible she could have outed for towncred, I think she as scum would be perfectly capable of looking town and wouldn't need to use her role in a sub-optimal way.
  
• The "Oh, fuck why?" response in Post 69 felt town because Nero's IC post came across as somewhat awkward and I thought that she would jump on it if scum but I guess it is partly colored by my expectations that Nero may be an easy target for scum to push. I like that tonally, it came across as restrained. I am not too confident on this but I overall read LLD as town so I am decently confident about my townread.

4) Zdenek

• I can see where Zdenek is coming from with his vote on Katsuki in Post 89 and I was mildly concerned with Katsuki going with the flow and attacking Sangres and I like that Zdenek responded to it with a vote. From what I've seen of Katsuki as scum in Death Note where I was town and in Anything Goes which I spectated, he does tend to bandwagon, predict the flow of wagons and often hops on at opportune times and I was concerned with him voting Sangres as their wagon picked up.
  
• Zdenek also makes a good point in Post 90 about not no lynching in MYLO because it makes sense to wary of it if she was scum.
  Zdenek's questioning of Nacho felt like he was exploring a genuine misunderstanding and his wanting to change pace with Tierce felt vaguely townish and his overall posting feels reasonably genuine and town motivated.

5) Chamber:

• I thought that Chamber's Post 647 felt incredibly town and captures my thought process almost exactly upon receiving a red role PM. My thoughts went something like "Dammit, scum...
  please let Cerulean/Sangres also be scum so they can be miserable too as opposed to gleefully lynch us
  ...where's the list of our partners?...oh, wait no, we're TOWN, awesome!" I find it incredibly unlikely that Chamber divined that sort of thought process just by reading a role PM in the OP because it resonates a lot and I can townread Chamber off of this alone. Penguin disagrees because she doesn't mind playing scum and didn't have the same thoughts upon seeing the role PM but still reads Chamber town overall anyways.
  
• I liked Chamber's confidence in his obvtownness. I also thought that him asking Zdenek to frame him because he can tell who visited him feels decently pro-town and helpful in seeing that Zdenek at least isn't lying about the entirety of his role even if it isn't conclusive evidence and I felt that the conversation spawned naturally from posts 460, 486, 502, and 504. Penguin also agreed that Chamber effectively making himself a miller takes away some of her worries about him and I think it pressures him to obvtown himself more.
  
• Chamber's nitpicky push on Shadoweh and intent in getting to the bottom of her thought process feels like genuine scumhunting and his wanting Shadoweh to be town in Post 731 came off very naturally and feels town.

6) ChannelDelibird

• CDB's push on Shadoweh in Post 327 feels a lot more like his general pushes as town based on what I've seen of him in the past. His posts just have that natural, unforced air that wasn't presented in the first Harry Potter game (linked in our CDB meta post).
  
• The way he handled his townread on Tim Howard and the insistence on waiting felt like he didn't want to give out more information just yet and the confidence with which he presented his reads and the timing of it felt more likely to be town than scum. It felt like he was trying to derail what he thought was a bad wagon. While he could be whiteknighting, I think there would be several ways to do it which doesn't push people off the wagon like expressing some uncertainty, and if he is protecting a buddy, it will be apparent soon and his overall approach felt town.
  
• I liked his 659. For one, being on the same page as me with regard to Zdenek and then working with Tim Howard telling them that Zdenek is town felt townish. I also thought that his reads list in his earlier Post 328 were plausible based on his take on the game so far.

7) Sixty

• Penguin figured that their general antagonistic nature rang town and she liked their originality in their scumhunting. While I initially found it odd that they kept disagreeing on the minutae of Cerulean's points, we both agree that it would have been easier to let it slide rather than gripe about read reasoning.
  
• I agree with a lot of the points and reads that they brought up in Post 714 and it mirrors what I am thinking for the most part and I can get behind their viewpoint of the game. I'd still like to discuss your read on Chamber because it is looking really obvious to me that he is town. But I can see that POV from someone who has a townread on Shadoweh and hadn't yet seen Chamber's response about him wanting Shadoweh to be town. Not sure what they are going on about with their read on us and I think it is fairly obvious that we are a hydra and have played plenty of games onsite. I also felt for the most part that their efforts to move the game forward felt genuine and I liked most of their content. I also like their comfort level and pro-active desire to work with a playerlist like this one.
  
• Empire thinks they are town (which I think is an actual reason to read them as town after the Black Flag game). I am holding out for a stronger read to see if Tierce obvtowns herself at some point which she would if town.

So, overall, here's where we are at. We'll start doing those meta-dives to refine this list soon. Would like to hear if anyone has thought about these reads.

Town (Strongest->Weakest): Cerulean, Chamber, LLD, Sangres, CDB, Zdenek, Sixty
Scum are among:

{Shadoweh, Plum, Venmar, Katsuki, Nero Cain, NS, Kanye, UT, Reck, Tim Howard}

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Also, want to look over Nero Cain's meta to solidify a read there.

Nero Cain:
TOWN: Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Legacy, NY 160: Terrible Melodrama, Open 505, NY164: Maniacal Street, Fire Emblem
SCUM: Imperial Intrigue

I was in the first two towngames, Penguin was in the others. Neither of us played with scum-Nero.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

If it's sincere I would be surprised. If it's good I would be astonished. If it's neither I think Plum would make an excellent compromise lynch among our fractured factions.

I'd hate to see "fractured factions." I think we are agreed on most reads (or at least my 6 of my 7 townreads so far) so I'd prefer we all build consensus together. What are your thoughts about my read on Chamber?

Yes, I do think you sound like you're fake raging at me. You're reminding me of the aia/vista game right now and quite frankl I have no idea why you are yelling at me.

Can I get a link to this game(s)? It looks like it happened in more than one thread. I am assuming Shadoweh fake-raged there?

I think that [Katsuki yelling and OMGUSing and chanelling Fate] would be an easy screen for his scum game.

Katsuki doesn't do that as scum but is much more involved with the game and actually has some semblance of "pro-town" play.

Do I need to do the scummy thing and MAKE A CASE on NS for things to happen, though?

I liked the aggression in this post but I felt your response in Post 725 was underwhelming. You say a lot of stuff that doesn't resonate, then unvote and vote Tim.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

On Shadoweh

: I can see where Cerulean and Chamber are coming from with the argument that Shadoweh forgetting the color of her role PM could mean scum, BUT, I too saw the red role PM and totally forgot the color of my role PM until Chamber brought it back up and once the game had started, I was busy telling Nacho and others that I was super-obvtown etc. So, I can plausibly see Shadoweh not just forgetting her role PM color but also not understanding why people are suspecting her for it.

Some of Shadoweh's frustration looks real to me and she seems genuinely upset. No one likes unexplained votes on them and that's what got her riled up initially and I think the ensuing discussion aggravated her.

On the other hand, if she's played with Tammy/Empire/Chamber before, I think she would be a little more confident in her ability to look town and theirs to recognize her as town. So, I don't like the defeatist attitude and the whole "

your blue case will get me lynched

." I actually don't recall Empire ever making a significant case on a townie before. I dislike that she thinks she can't change Cerulean's/Chamber's minds especially as Chamber already indicated that he wanted to see Shadoweh as town and I assume Tammy was implying the same thing with the "

I love you Shadoweh

" line. Since she is townreading them both, it looks even more out of place. I haven't played with Shadoweh so I'll give a more solid opinion once I learn what her fake rage looks like.

---

UntrodTripod

gives me gut townvibes but I need to double-check and explanation will have to wait.

---

Plum

feels scummy. Her walls feel fluffy and not like she is trying to drive the game forward and I am coming around to Penguin's scumread on her.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Ffery, I'll wait for Nacho to elaborate.

Nero, I picked some games that we played in and the scumgame you have in your sig. Link those games then that you'd like us to take a look at (especially most recent scumgames would be cool). And yeah, I forgot KoreanBBQ in NY169.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

I am not "scumreading" 10 people. Those are the leftovers after I POE'd 7 players as town. Next step is more POE until I'm left with 4-5 players that also make decent sense as a scumteam.

We'll post our Venmar read and others when we have a solid enough read.

Also, UT isn't reading this game.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

but actually Cerulean's early posts are super bad so I really just want to keep my vote where it is because it's actually scum guys

Elaborate on why. Have you played with either head before?

even the katsuki vote, flawed as it is, looks town to me

Why is it flawed? Are you townreading Katsuki? If so, why?

[Flipping Awesome]

On the other hand, if she's played with Tammy/Empire/Chamber before, I think she would be a little more confident in her ability to look town and theirs to recognize her as town. So, I don't like the defeatist attitude and the whole "

your blue case will get me lynched

." I actually don't recall Empire ever making a significant case on a townie before. I dislike that she thinks she can't change Cerulean's/Chamber's minds especially as Chamber already indicated that he wanted to see Shadoweh as town and I assume Tammy was implying the same thing with the "

I love you Shadoweh

" line. Since she is townreading them both, it looks even more out of place. I haven't played with Shadoweh so I'll give a more solid opinion once I learn what her fake rage looks like.

I think you need to recognize when that statement happened. IE after over a week of shrill screaming in which many of my posts were answered by things like 'I am so sorry you got a scum role pm'. Empire hasn't made a significant case on me, he already admitted he doesn't know how to read me. And they're very obviously not changing their minds. I don't think I've played with Chamber besides the previous game I was scum in though. If I have I don't remember it.

Also I can't find aia or vista. >_> I suspect they might have been consumed by tigers.

Okay. From what I gathered of Chamber's posts towards you, he implied that he knew you or you were friends so I figured it you were town, you'd be more confident in your ability to just show him that you are.

You said to Cerulean in Post 701 that nothing can make them change their mind. I can see why the "

I am sorry you got a scum role PM

" would demotivate you regardless of affiliation. But from my experience with both heads, I never felt as though I couldn't change their mind when I was town so it felt off mostly because of who you directed it towards. I think you'd be more likely to give up if you were correctly pegged as scum than if you were being read wrong.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

oh, sorry I missed that!

yeah, but it's not a meta read. do you have a line of questioning that doesn't cover something I've already explained, because I've already elaborated a bit since you asked that.

I'm not sure about Kats, but I know I've seen Kats get lynched before as town for acting like this and I'm not compelled by the wagon.

At that point, I was more interested in why you skipped those posts but I like your response anyways. The Kats read has been on my to-do list for a while. I'll get around to it.
~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

@P_A: There may be a puppy in it for you if you pre-empt F-16 by voting Nero Cain.

...I'm allergic to puppies? :ducks: At this point I'm mildly concerned about my lack of a town read on him, but I don't want him lynched, as I'd like to think I can get a better read on him as the game develops.

*shrugz* all I know is that you are have close to a 0% history of correctly reading me correctly

Excluding games where one of us was in-hydra because I don't really want to track them down, I scum read you when I was town incorrectly in 2.5 Friends, the game where you tunneled my strong town read on Yates to the point where you faked a result on him for the mislynch. Otherwise, I find Mainstream Mafia, where I scum read your predecessor but not you to the point that I bodyguarded you, Open 505 where I town read you correctly. Everything else you have with me, I was scum and was obviously bullshitting my reads on you.

So...33% incorrect? And IIRC you were reading me incorrectly in that same game?

(And oh dear lord I'm not reading Marketplace III to figure out what you look like as scum; I could barely read that game when I had to. I'll content myself with waiting for you to demonstrate your towniness or lack thereof.)

At any rate, I don't like Venmar, but I like Plum less, and Katsuki obviously isn't going anywhere. I'll trust that y'all won't let him slip away if he's scum here.

UNVOTE: Katsuki
VOTE: Plum

Reading her posts reinforces the feeling I had that she isn't trying to moving things forward. There's a lot of negativity being put out there that comes off as non-productive, and the NS case followed by a vote on Tim Howard that I don't understand tips it over into being willing to vote here.

--PA

[Flipping Awesome]

It's really hard for me to read that again actually because I was very upset when I wrote that post. I do give up more easily as scum, but I don't think as scum I would have spent so much time arguing in the first place.

What would you do as scum if not argue your position? The part about regretting your posts makes me lean town though.
~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Zdenek, I'll talk more on my Nero Cain and Katsuki reads when I develop them further. I felt Katsuki understanding why I scumread him was town because of how I think he expects me to sort him. I probably won't be elaborating on that point though.

Nacho, we are at the same place mostly. I think you agree with all seven of my townreads which is great. I am coming around to seeing Shadoweh and UT as town and Penguin leans town on them as well I think. I also agree with your points on Tim Howard and potentially Nero Cain but those two are something we need to discuss in more detail. Penguin has concerns about both but for me, it is more that I just want to be certain before putting them as town. I'lll have to think about Venmar as well. I'll probably post an updated reads list tonight, I am checking in-between classes right now. Based on your POE, it seems as though you are saying scum are likely among Katsuki, Kanye, Reck, NS, and Plum. I'm glad we're on the same page for the most part. I'll have a better idea once I get a chance to dig into their meta. I am also waffling on Plum after seeing that tonally she played a lot differently in the We're on a Boat game.

Empire, would be interested in seeing your POE pool when you find time to discuss it. Also, would like to hear your thoughts on Plum.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

I can move our vote there. But, I'd much rather be on a wagon that you and F-16 both think are scum if I'm not going to stick with nacho's strongest scum read.

This feels odd coming from you considering we often butt heads in games or at least spend a very massive amount of time hashing out disagreements on reads.
~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Empire, I read your analysis in Post 864. I obviously agree with your CDB read. I am not sure what to make of Tim Howard jumping in on Plum and pushing the wagon since I wasn't super-confident about the Plum read and didn't really post much of a "case" beyond a couple of sentences. I was more hoping Plum would get back into the thread so we develop a better read. But, I think scum bandwagoning might be more subtle as opposed to blatant. Also, considering both CDB and Chamber are convinced he is town, I'd rather table that read for D2.

I lean slight town on

Katsuki

here based on meta. I re-read the Death Note game I linked earlier. Ffery, did you or Nacho get a chance to read it? The main thing I observed is that he is very go-with-the-flow as scum and at times, even predicting the flow before it happens. Notice his early push on Hopkirk just as Mastin (in a hydra with me as Mafia Theory) pushes Hopkirk and the Herself hydra jumps in. Katsuki pretty much pushes the wagon for all it is worth. The other thing I noticed I noticed on re-reading is that he adjusts his tone and stances to fit in with the playerlist. In that instance, see his Post 144 where he explains his thoughts to me in detail upon being asked. In general, I find that he is in sync with the gamestate and the players as scum, but as town, he isn't. I'm not sure about the exact reasons but I think it is probably because he wants to push his scumreads even if others disagree. I am still not ready with this read though since I don't have external validation for it that I was hoping for and obviously Empire and Nacho can't both be right so that will take some more time to figure out. I am also happy that you want to build consensus and hope you are town. I'd like to see where your reads are at right now.

I am not the best at reading xReckonerx and when I was following Fall of Gondolin in real time, I thought he looked scummy on page 1 with the "wrong as fuck like always Tierce" discredit but I am willing to consider your townread him. What are your updated thoughts on Kanye?

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Quick thoughts, more later.
- Plum's response to us felt off, it seemed like appeasement. I'll post more thoughts on Plum soon.
- UT's posts felt town to me. I worked out what Tammy's tell on UT from the Reckoning was but unfortunately that hasn't shown up. Still think he is town.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Here's what I found off about Plum:

1) The way she pushed Tim Howard in Post 1046 lacked any sort of passion, conviction or genuineness behind it. Same with her push on Nobody Special which she later retracted. It feels a lot like her pushes in We're on a Boat and very unlike the kind of genuine pushes she makes as town as evidenced by her push on Paschendale in Attack on Titan where it feels like she actually believes what she is saying rather than posting just to post which is what most of her walls in this game feel like.

2) The meandering nature of most of her posts and the lack of forcefulness again mirrors her scumgame. Plum as town is more involved with the game and tries to stay on top of things. Her play here feels like a perpetual catch-up post where she always lets the game unfold and comes in later with a few pro-town looking thoughts. She's never at any point seized the game by the balls and attempted to solve it.

3) I felt like her townread on us and the simultaneous attack on Tim didn't feel natural "

Looking forward to seeing TH cover his ass when F16 reconsiders his scumread on me

" felt more like subtle manipulation.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

but evidence in this very game shows the contrary.

What were you referring to here?

I can move our vote there. But, I'd much rather be on a wagon that you and F-16 both think are scum if I'm not going to stick with nacho's strongest scum read.

This feels odd coming from you considering we often butt heads in games or at least spend a very massive amount of time hashing out disagreements on reads.
~ F-16

I'd still like it if you would talk about Katsuki wanting to know about PA's read.

Perhaps I was unclear. My townread on him had do with him understanding how I am sorting him as opposed to him asking for PA's read. I didn't make anything off of him wanting to know of PA's read.

Also, check through my links on Plum's meta like you did on me during Wicked and tell me what you see.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

In other news, I'd prob support a Flipping wagon 'cause I'm kind of paranoid about PA who keeps implying that I'm a mild scumread but isn't engaging me at all and when I asked why she wasn't she didn't reply.

I haven't seen anything that explicitly makes me comfortable considering you town. And given that you dismissed my read as me being an idiot, it seems rather futile for me to try to engage you. Also given that you claimed I read you accurately when town myself 0% of the time even though the facts belie such a number, I just really don't feel like doing the dance with you. Given that I have a strong scum read on Plum, I'm OK letting my read on you coalesce based on your interactions with others.

Basically it boils down to me not having the energy or interest to deal with someone predisposed to dismiss me as a fool. Maybe I am, maybe I'm not, but I tend to doubt my ability to have a productive conversation with you either way. And before you get angry at me for not wanting to engage, I'll say that this is entirely a reflection of my own suspected inability to work with you productively rather than an attempt to paint you as the bad guy.

In other news, I agree with my other head that Untrod Tripod is likely town. Less fancy reasoning than F-16, but in discussing our PoE pool, I felt that UT was more connected to the game in a 'trying to figure things out' way than most of the others.

Plum votes are still flipping awesome...

--PA

[Flipping Awesome]

@FA/F-16

Nacho's response to your meta on Katsuki:

He agrees that katsuki adjusts his play style to the player list, and he thinks that in a player list like this where so many players are meta based katsuki won't play his stereotypical protown-looking scum game because we'd see it for what it is.

Also consider his activity level here versus his activity in Dark Ages of the Law and Natirasha on Parole, two very recent town games.

Nacho would also like you to respond to the flaws he pointed out in Empire's case. His activity here is definitely higher.

So, you are saying he adjusted his scum-meta to manipulate the playerlist? But I am still not seeing why he is scum. Explain it for me.
~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Nacho, you missed my question as well.

[Flipping Awesome]

I don't have a strong read on Katsuki nor am I confident enough that he is town to derail his wagon especially since Penguin has reservations about him.

But we should still lynch Plum.

She isn't really DOING anything. She showed up once I made a case on her to offer a point by point rebuttal and then disappeared again. As far as the rebuttal goes, it is decent but as CTD would say, nothing that a competent scum player can't fake.

If you don't want to vote Tim Howard, try Plum.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

It is really obvious that you are following the game because you show up anytime that you are mentioned.

[Flipping Awesome]

@ LostButterfly

, I'll have reduced activity over the next couple of weeks owing to finals but I'll probably still be keeping up with the thread.
~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Flipping Awesome have probably fallen asleep

:alarm buzzes:

So we're not convinced Plum's town by any stretch of the imagination, but I like the kanye wagon better than the Venmar one and I kind of like Untrod Tripod for possible town still.

VOTE: kanyeknowsbest

--PA

[Flipping Awesome]

I am less convinced than Penguin about Plum-scum at this point but I want to outline the reasons I feel UT is town. Plum, if you could take a look at it and give me your thoughts, that'll be cool.

• UT's Post 719 in defense of Zdenek feels town because he respects Zed as a player and the reasoning he gives resonates on a lot of levels. Now that Wicked Mafia, is over, I'll point out that UT was in the scum QT agreeing with his hydra partner T-Bone that Zdenek "had his shit together" and ought to be killed N1. However, UT also mentioned that he didn't think people were listening to Zdenek. UT's hydra was the primary reason we killed Zdenek N1. From that context, him saying "
  I've watched Zed laser through scumteams and not be taken seriously and I really want to give him the opportunity to shine here
  " came across as incredibly natural. I also like the positive, pro-active encouragement to Sixty and Shadoweh in the rest of that post.
  
• His back-and-forth with Sixty where he tries to persuade them to join the Venmar wagon felt town and I like his engagement with the game in general. Particularly him wanting to change his attitude from the Reckoning game and taking steps to improve that felt very genuine.

[Flipping Awesome]

My lack of follow up on the kanye scumread last day should show how much i believed in it alone. I got nothing to explain because i'm just using the read really to justify my jerk reaction to Kanye, which was negative.

You have such a strong read that you don't want to persuade people back on the wagon? Not trying to be a smartaleck, just don't understand.

UNVOTE:

Not touching the UT wagon with a ten foot pole, TYVM.

kanye, wasn't restricting us to two wagons, just was considering that wagons were forming on two people I found scummy to varying degrees and was more interested in seeing what happened there than forming a vanity wagon.

[Flipping Awesome]

I haven't read the thread in detail but Shadoweh seems very town in the past few posts. I am convinced that the Tim Howard case comes from a town motivation although I am still trying to figure out whether I am convinced on Tim Howard being scum. CDB, would like your updated thoughts on Tim Howard.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

So, I am starting to wonder about most of my townreads which have gone stale. I am still convinced UT is town and would like Plum to address my case. Tammy's latest post reassures me of my townread there. Shadoweh is a surprisingly strong townread for me and Penguin as well. Chamber and Zdenek are town. I'll bet the game about that much. Everything else will have to wait until I get a chance to re-read the thread. LLD's and CDB's low activity has made those townreads a bit stale but I am still leaning town.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

This is weird but why Pless and not Regfan makes me wonder about my townread on CDB.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

That is, I am saying Regfan would only replace into slots he thinks are town and if Cerulean are town. If either condition isn't met, he wouldn't replace in. Cerulean feels town so.

[Flipping Awesome]

1. Some things that are natural to say as Town are just as easy to say in a natural way as scum? I'm sure he sincerely believes Zed has a strong Town game. I don't feel that the instance of his defense of Zed or explanation for it is particularly indicative of Town motivation for his behavior. I find it odd that his analysis of Zed in that defense references motivation as something relevant . . . we sorta disagreed on that when it came to something regarding me (i.e., he seemed to reject the idea that motivation analysis could be relevant to me showing the so-called beetlejuice tell).

2. I didn't think that his desire to change his attitude from the Reckoning game was alignment-dependent? Unless you think he would have abandoned any notion of trying that on drawing scum because e.g. he felt he could manipulate the game better in the old, more acerbic mode he mentions? I don't know, I'm just not seeing these specific interactions you mention as the most relevant or interesting aspects of UT's play. There's so much he's not saying, which is part of what I'm seeing as a problem.

I don't see why UT would jump in to defend Zed if he saw Zed taking heat. He

could

do it as scum but I've played with him as scum before and I found him to be much more opportunistic and blatant about pursuing a scum agenda. The rest of his posts, I guess it is possible he could fake it but it overall felt genuine to me.

Cerulean, I am concerned with Empire head and also with some of your D1 play:

- Your lack of presence towards the end of D1. It just didn't feel like the sort of thing you would do where you vote Plum and let a lynch on a townread (Katsuki) go through. Why didn't you try to take a larger role in working with the town to secure a lynch not on one of your townreads? I get that you were strapped for time and it is probably unfair for me to bring this up but when you did have time, I expected you to use it more efficiently.

- Your play here and interactions with me feeling different than in Black Flag Nightless where you were intent on getting me into the game and sharing my thoughts. I don't get the same vibes here even accounting for reduced activity. Do you plan to be active at any point in the future?

- Penguin and I both have meta on CDB and though he occasionally lurks as scum, that's not the most distinguishing feature. In fact, Penguin describes his scum play as "try-hard" and from my experience with town-him and reading games with scum-him where he and Penguin were scumbuddies, I agree with her description. Can you link the games you are using to meta him?

- I also expected you to take a stronger role in defending UT if as you say, he is a townread and you are confident about this read but if you are still catching up,

----

Pless's catch up is decent enough and leans town to me. Regarding the replacement issue, I won't bring it up again because it may not be fair. It is not that I was disappointed or anything. Just wondered why the people that signed up for being replacements didn't automatically replace in. I am quite happy and looking forward to playing with you.
~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Heh, well, I guess however we're interpreting it, we're both concluding CDB-slot is towny, so I'll take it.

But F-16 and I keep playing chicken with one another saying the other's welcome to move our vote onto Tim Howard, so.

VOTE: Tim Howard

--PA

[Flipping Awesome]

Card received.

UNVOTE: Tim Howard

Willing to reconsider.

Nero Cain, when I said I didn't have a town read on you and thought you might be scum, you outright dismissed me as never reading you right. I went through games and determined that as town I actually did read you right more often than not. You ignored that conclusion entirely. Of course, while this was going on there was also the ongoing 172 that's now over where I stuck to my (correct) town read on you even though it contributed to your suspicion of me. And while you were going on about my auto-scum reading you, depending on when the spoilered dead QT kicked in you knew I'd read you honestly and correctly.

So since you're disinclined to take me seriously, I'll just keep observing and let F-16 in on my read status. Because arguing with you when you've already dismissed me as an idiot doesn't exactly seem productive.

--PA

[Flipping Awesome]

Responding to prod.

TAMMY! YOU MISSED ME?

[Flipping Awesome]

So, to kinda address the elephant in the room: I have been pretty busy BUT posting elsewhere although I shouldn't be. I'm not caught up with this game completely and Penguin has stuff to do irl as well.

I figured we made our alignment incredibly obvious D1 and intend to do again D3. My last final is on Wednesday the 14th. I just don't think I can spend the time to catch up and compile all of my thoughts before then but once I do, our alignment will be obvious again.

I still need to get back to Empire on the CDB meta and stuff which I'm going to do at that point.

But, Tammy, quiz time: read all of my posts so far in the game and tell me what my alignment is:

Spoiler: answer

TOWN

[Flipping Awesome]

Just off the top of my head? The detailed reads will have to wait. I really do think Nero Cain is town but Penguin is not completely convinced. I wanted to discuss it with her once I have more to say about it than "gut."

I think UT is town. I don't like Plum pushing him but I am unsure about Plum. She's playing the way I expect her to as town. The fact that it only happened after being called out is what makes me hesitate. But then, she was fairly inactive and passive in that Wizards game I looked through that you were in so I'll cut her some slack on that.

Venmar could be scum. Kanye could as well. I don't have much on Kanye other than POE and the Sangres vote feeling odd.

I'll bank this game on Chamber, Zdenek, Shadoweh, UT, maybe Plessiez and you guys.

[Flipping Awesome]

But, Tammy, quiz time: read all of my posts so far in the game and tell me what my alignment is:

Spoiler: answer

TOWN

SCUM

FTFY

Please turn in your right to read F-16 card here:


The card has expired. You need three consecutive correct reads to renew it.

[Flipping Awesome]

[Flipping Awesome]

Whoever solves that puzzle gets to be called my newest, favorite townread.

[Flipping Awesome]

I mean I'd probably be insulted but there's no way you're reading me as scum.

Same here. I mean I had a few fleeting thoughts that this may be the game I get to payback Empire for his massive case on me in NY160 but it became increasingly apparent that it is not once I took a quick look at your posts. I have a feeling scum-you is either going to be afraid of town-me, or try to drive a mislynch on me, or try to buddy me. Can't figure out which it would be.

[Flipping Awesome]

Regarding Black Flag, these were the posts I vividly remembered:

Regfan, when I read over absta's posts the first time I didn't see what you were talking about but after rereading them I 100% get it and I'll talk it over with Tammy the next time I see her. Want to remind you to look at Piggy's #646, I thought it was kind of genuine when I read it but I'm on the fence. Still haven't made time to look at Mehdi/OS's meta but I'll try to make some this week.

Deadpool,

I'm really interested in hearing F-16's thoughts on the game so please try to get him in here ASAP.

So far, the only slot I have in my "unlynchable" pool is Justin Timberlake. I have a bunch of weaker townreads but I'm not confident in them at all, want to give the thread another reread and talk them over some with Tammy to decide where we want to go.

~Empire.

I've played with F-16 before here and though I was scum there I felt like he was very transparently town in that game.

I only played with Arthur briefly here, where even though I read him as town correctly, he replaced out shortly after I replaced in so I feel a bit less confident with him. Tammy claims to know his meta very well though and I want to talk with her over Arthur's recent posts.

~Empire.

Ok, now it's time for me to get off my ass again and do more meta research.

F-16, please get in here and post. Now.

~Empire.

Fuck.

Regfan - please don't put deadpool in your blind spot.

Deadpool - ill have some questions for you in a bit that you get to stop ignoring, and

want to see f-16's thoughts as well as your updated thought very soon.

That's not an answer to her question, Arthur. And I'm also very interested in hearing your answer.

Also, where's your Soul townread coming from?

(F-16, I've been watching you post. I expect to see you in this thread soon.)

~Empire.

Glad I'm rubbing off on you, Tammy.

(I'm doing some of my own right now, too.

F-16, I need you right now bro.)

~Empire.

Posting from my phone to say DO NOT reply to F-16's wall. Let him finish his catch up first please.

~Empire

Regfan, I read through your case for Thor being town and I'll have a more detailed post about it tomorrow but I want to say this: Tammy and I both think you might be massively underestimating Thor, we think he's very capable of faking a lot of the minor-ish towntells you listed in thread (as opposed to the scum QT). The one thing I am inclined to agree with you on is his push on N being a towntell and that he might have a point re: Jesse being scum after looking at his meta.

F-16, would really love it if you finished your catch-up and helped us out here.

~Empire.

Oh Deadpool brought it up, nevermind.

Still waiting on F-16 to respond to Regfan's PoE analysis

and waiting on theslimer3's...everything.

~Empire.

Arthur,

is F-16 ever going to post in this thread again?

And why hasn't he done so? I know he's been around.

~Empire.

[Flipping Awesome]

@F-16: I'll engage your wall/reads later when I'm back from dinner.

F-16, going to have to take a rain check on talking about your reads. I wasn't really in the mood for mafia today at all.

This is why I felt underwhelmed. I guess real life stuff comes in as well but idk. I still feel pretty good about you guys being town, just wouldn't bank the game on you right now.

[Flipping Awesome]

That makes more sense. I just remembered JT was treating our slot as conftown and you guys had doubts about us because they had to keep explaining their townread because you wouldn't believe it. Real life + already having a read on our slot could account for the difference. I did feel that the way you were trying to scumhunt Shadoweh bordered on unfakeable. In any case, once I re-read and we compare notes, it should be a lot more apparent and I can get a more solid read.

For now: Do you disagree on any of these reads: {Zdenek, Chamber, Shadoweh, UT, Plessiez} as all being town?

[Flipping Awesome]

I agree. I brought it up to clarify what I was referring to with regards to Black Flag and why it felt different here.

[Flipping Awesome]

Flipping awesome, why are you not voting?

Because we're Awesome.

I am just really slow to vote. I don't think I've voted at all the entire game actually. It was Penguin doing all the voting.

[Flipping Awesome]

We'll vote once we figure out where we want our vote to be.

[Flipping Awesome]

What we were debating was to whether to vote Venmar or Kanye. I would vote either over Nero Cain or UT.

[Flipping Awesome]

Xenogears is the game you want to be looking at for the best representation of my town meta >.>

also I think Empire can't read me for shit in reality

What do you think of his analysis here?

[Flipping Awesome]

Xenogears is the game you want to be looking at for the best representation of my town meta >.>

also I think Empire can't read me for shit in reality

What do you think of his analysis here?

What am I supposed to think? He fucked me up that game? I also think that Empire isn't doing any of it in this game.

That game was also back when I was atrocious as scum and is an incredibly poor representation of my meta. So if people could fucking stop thinking they are the shit and so fucking clever by meta-ing that game on me, that would be fucking swell because it's infuriating. If you want to go "think" you know my scum-meta, then go read House of Cards or UDesign, then fail anyways at knowing how to read me.

Because nobody ever can

I asked you what you thought because it looked like a good case against you as scum so I was surprised when you said Empire can't read you. I didn't consider that you improved since then. I was surprised you said that he couldn't read you at all and wanted to see if you thought he pegged you as scum or if he was just lucky.

[Flipping Awesome]

I think I played a game with Venmar and interacted with him quite a but but I was playing under an alt. I'm going to double check with that.

[Flipping Awesome]

I'm still awake!

[Flipping Awesome]

Sure. You can start by explaining why you have your vote on obvtown.

[Flipping Awesome]

Sure. Scum are Kanye, Venmar, LLD, NS, Tim.

[Flipping Awesome]

I think I played a game with Venmar and interacted with him quite a but but I was playing under an alt. I'm going to double check with that.

How did that pan out?

He was incredibly reasonable about suspicion on him and had tons of patience. To be fair, it was an old game but the differences are stark.

[Flipping Awesome]

There is actually a good chance you are scum too. I have an awesome tell on you based on something said in the NY169 dead thread.

[Flipping Awesome]

Tomorrow.

[Flipping Awesome]

I am pretty sure about it actually. Tomorrow, we fight to the death and I'll show you what its like to be on the receiving end of me tunneling.

[Flipping Awesome]

No.

1) Tomorrow, I'll get you lynched and prove that I can read you 216 times better than anyone else ever.

2) You don't get to talk to me about reading you while you just voted obvtown me. That's right. You. Voted. Obvtown. Me.

[Flipping Awesome]

I really want to put this discussion on hold for tomorrow so I'll respond to the rest later.

Re: Your annoyance at me - if you are talking about in general, then I really am sorry. If you are talking specifically about my play in this game, I don't see any reason for annoyance.

[Flipping Awesome]

We will by deadline. Either him or Venmar.

[Flipping Awesome]

I guess my issue with this game was that at one point, I fell behind and didn't follow a lot of stuff. I can spend time posting elsewhere if I am already caught up but to go and re-read might take a while and it is something I don't want to do until my finals are done and that'll be this Wednesday which should be very early after D3 opens. Once that's done, I am going to do a massive re-read of the entire game and post my thoughts in detail and make it awesome to play.

I get the whole suspicion based on low activity but you saw my posts towards the beginning of the game. You saw the massive amount of analysis I put forth. You saw Nacho obvtown read me. You know in your heart I'm town and I trust you to be able to read me off of the content I produced. We made our affiliation incredibly obvious on D1. We intend to do so on D3. I just don't have it in me to re-read pages that I missed while I still have finals to write. I know it is ironic considering the amount of time I waste playing mafia even the weekend before but it is one thing to post stuff in the moment if already caught up and quite another to catch up on a whole bunch of pages and develop reads.

[Flipping Awesome]

Why are you apologizing to me if you think I'M SCUM?

When you said you were annoyed at me in general, I assumed in general and not just in this game. Never mind that.

[Flipping Awesome]

why did you respond to my vote the way you did?

I was too tired and sleepy to make another crossword puzzle.

[Flipping Awesome]

All right fine. I know you are stressed out and I don't want to make it worse for you. I don't have a tell. I was pretty sure you guys were going to be nk'd because you are obvtown. I was pretending to find you suspicious so that the scum would think we wouldn't be able to work together. The NY169 dead thread was me referring to the fact that that was where I randomly threw around the idea of pretending to suspect you so that you don't get immediately nk'd. Post 216 was where I said it. I thought you'd pick up on that but you are obviously getting stressed out and didn't so it is a moot point. I just hope if there are protective roles in the game, they protect you.

Yes, your alignment was really obvious. As for your suspicion of me, it is understandable. I do think I was pretty obvtown D1 but my fading out would understandably cause suspicion in someone like you who is paranoid. I wasn't reaction testing you nor was I looking for any reactions

from

you - that's why I tried to brush it away for tomorrow. I was trying to trick the scum into not killing you because once my finals were done, I really wanted to sit down and spend a ton of time solving this game with Penguin, you, and Empire and you getting nk'd would have ruined the plan.

[Flipping Awesome]

why did you respond to my vote the way you did?

I was too tired and sleepy to make another crossword puzzle.

I was hoping for a different reaction. I wanted an immediate, unfiltered, wtf are you doing response.

You are going to have to get used to a more level headed me then!

No, but seriously, I put on a show in Wicked at times posting a ton of analysis but it was quite obvious that I wasn't invested in the game as scum and had to be prodded a ton of times. So, I get why you would be suspicious and why you would vote us when I fell into some similar patterns here. I can logically understand your suspicion but we're town, we made it obvious before and we'll make it obvious again. I am not resisting working with you. In fact, I'd like nothing more!

[Flipping Awesome]

You do say that in the dead thread

Bert has done a similar thing in a couple games, and I never get it. I always get frustrated.

I don't play well with others, and should probably take a nap.

I will wake up in a bit to check and see if I need to move my vote for the lynch though.

Don't worry about it. I just really hope we are all still here D3. I gotta get to bed as well. It is 4:50 AM where I am.

[Flipping Awesome]

hey tammy if i get lynched im leaving it up 2 you to find out whos the scum that bailed the tim wagon after he claimed

This conviction feels odd.

[Flipping Awesome]

So, I still prefer lynching Kanye/Venmar over Nero Cain. I'm going with Kanye partly because I think he's a larger priority than Venmar to take down if scum and by POE, I think they are possibly both scum.

[Flipping Awesome]

VOTE: KanyeKnowsBest

[Flipping Awesome]

I also think it is possible Venmar's scumhunting appears scummy on the surface even if he is town. I think the likelihood is less for Kanye.

[Flipping Awesome]

I

really

don't think Nero Cain is scum. The way he posts gives me townvibes and his suspicions and how he is approaching the game feels genuine.

[Flipping Awesome]

sigh

so be it

unvote vote Nero

UT, why are you voting for the person Venmar wants dead when you previously had your vote on Venmar?

[Flipping Awesome]

Here's why Nero Cain is bad lynch and likely town:

- His initial push on Nacho came with a confidence that's unlikely to come from scum. Nacho is not an easy lynch and if scum make a bad push, they get wrecked. It would have been so much easier to just buddy Nacho and help him lynch Katsuki as opposed to bring up theories that he is bussing Kats. It felt a lot like town paranoia.

- His push on Venmar had a conviction which shows that he genuinely believes in it. It is the same with his push on Kats.

- His paranoia of Penguin and the sudden desire to put us in the lynchpool feel incredibly legitimate.

[Flipping Awesome]

I'm a bit sick right now but I'll post when I get home.

Posts like these are what show that he genuinely believes in his scumreads. Whenever players post, he asks for their read on Venmar and tries to see if he can get their vote.

[Flipping Awesome]

@LLD-what is your Venmar read?

Also, I read through Nero Cain's scumgame and realized that the markers that I'm using for him aren't as good as I originally thought so I need a reset especially since my other head disagrees.

Or maybe PA is just an idiot and you shouldn't listen to her. Now vote scum Venmar with me.

^ These posts I mean.

[Flipping Awesome]

Nero Cain, when I said I didn't have a town read on you and thought you might be scum, you outright dismissed me as never reading you right. I went through games and determined that as town I actually did read you right more often than not. You ignored that conclusion entirely. Of course, while this was going on there was also the ongoing 172 that's now over where I stuck to my (correct) town read on you even though it contributed to your suspicion of me. And while you were going on about my auto-scum reading you, depending on when the spoilered dead QT kicked in you knew I'd read you honestly and correctly.

So since you're disinclined to take me seriously, I'll just keep observing and let F-16 in on my read status. Because arguing with you when you've already dismissed me as an idiot doesn't exactly seem productive.

Well, I was wrong too. I legit believed that you had never read me correctly (aside from when you were scum) but yea I wasn't wrong. *shrug* All I'm saying (or atleast trying to get across) is that I'm paranoid of you two 'cause this whole "I think you are scum but I'm not going to talk to you." 'cause I feel like that's a stance that scum would take. If it makes you feel better I'd lynch several slots before you!

but in any case, if you guys aren't lynching TH, can you guys help me kill scumVenmar.

His paranoia here feels unnecessary as a scum move but understandable as town. If he was scum, he's unlikely to get us to join his "lynch Venmar" scum agenda by putting us down as a possible lynch as he does a few posts later.

[Flipping Awesome]

I'm going to flip town and then you guys are lynching off my wagon. Reck and Plum can use these posts to suggest that they should not get lynched or something idk....

Not perfectly happy with this vote or lynch. But quite tolerably so.

This still feels bad man

I can't really explain it, just seems like they are building up to distance themselves.

Paranoid town theories about scumteams. Scum don't think like this so naturally while they are being lynched. This is a townie thought process and it is apparent he is trying extremely hard to find multiple scum in order to help the town after his lynch.

[Flipping Awesome]

UT, why are you voting for the person Venmar wants dead when you previously had your vote on Venmar?

Too lazy to link, but UT was voting for Nero well before switching to Venmar. So the switch back to Nero when the Venmar wagon became obviously unviable doesn't bother me much.

I'm a bit more curious/paranoid about UT's reluctance to say anything at all about kanye, but that's not really something I think worth talking about today.

Here's why Nero Cain is bad lynch and likely town

... I'm not actually persuaded by much of this. Which is odd, because I tend to agree Nero is probably not a good lynch. (You don't think "no lynch" is better than Nero though, do you? Because right now, I think those are the only two options.)

We can lynch Venmar as well if a bunch of people switch. What are your thoughts on him?

[Flipping Awesome]

Oh, about UT: I asked him why because it feels incredibly unlikely that Venmar and Nero Cain are scum together considering them going after each other for the majority of the game. It doesn't feel like scum-scum interaction at all. Add onto that that if they vote on the same wagon, they get an extra vote: I feel like they are at least not part of the same scumteam.

[Flipping Awesome]

Ugh, yeah, final answer with some sleep is that I don't think this is scum-Nero. Possibly too little too late, but.

Cerulean, do you actively think kanye is town? Which side of the fence, gun to your head?

[Flipping Awesome]

I feel like they are at least not part of

the same scumteam

.

W-wait what?

Penguin and I wondered if you could be part of different scumteams back in D1 but I think it is less likely now with only one kill N1.

[Flipping Awesome]

Because your vote makes a kanye lynch possible. And I think going back to my normal 'read NC off all non-PA interactions' does show town-NC.

--PA

[Flipping Awesome]

Both of these lynches need to happen at some point, likely, but nero informs too much.

Nero is also really town.

[Flipping Awesome]

Tammy, if you don't post in the next couple of minutes I'm hammering Nero.

Can you wait till we have 5 minutes left?

[Flipping Awesome]

Can you wait till we have 5 minutes left?

I'm genuinely not sure if this is sarcasm.

No, I just feel good about a Kanye lynch and bad about a Nero Cain one.

Apart from finding Venmar scummy and Nero Cain not being scum with him,

Kanye's vote on Sangres D1 felt odd. His lack of overall engagement felt odd and his latest posts don't feel genuine either.

[Flipping Awesome]

Listen to Empire then!

[Flipping Awesome]

A quick glance at where I am at:

I'd bank the game on Cerulean, Chamber, and Zdenek being town both based off of their individual play as well as interactions with Kanye being extremely unlikely to come from scum.

Here are the people I think are probably town but will need to interaction analysis before being sure:

Shadoweh, UT, Nero Cain, maybe Plum

.

The leftovers are:

LLD, Venmar, Tim Howard, xRecknonerx, Nobody Special

.

In any case, going to re-evaluate all 9 players outside of the top three town pile and check their interactions with Kanye.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Gonna catch up soon.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

I'm in the process of re-reading the thread to look at interactions between Kanye and the other players in the game and I'll post my thoughts in a few hours. . I'm a little unsure now since I don't have a baseline on how Kanye treats his buddies yet. If anyone has any experience with Kanye as scum regarding how he treats his buddies (i.e. does he bus, distance, townread, question townreads on them, etc), that'll be great. I'll look into some of Kanye's scumgames too.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

Going over Kanye's interactions with other slots to see who makes sense as Kanye-buddies. The "possible" ones are the POE pool that I need to refine to see which one actually make any sense. I actually think the first and maybe second are likely but Penguin doesn't so we are going to focus on analyzing more there.

Kanye's interactions with other slots:

1) Kanye/LLD

-

Possible/likely

• I think an LLD/Kanye scumteam is not only possible but also likely, considering she had a lot of early suspicion of Kanye which she doesn't push hard on and it feels like scum-scum distancing. For example in Post 207 she said that if she could put up two people in the no lynch arena, she'd pick Kanye and Tim Howard. She follows up on this suspicion in Post 1456 saying that she needs someone to tell her that Kanye isn't scum. But I don't think she at any point actually voted Kanye or made any sort of push. She spent Post 1472 trying to work with others to see if they noticed UT's interactions seeming odd but I saw no attempt to discuss Kanye which I think would have been a priority if she genuinely suspected him. We know that as of Post 1530, she's caught up enough to see that both her scumspects had votes on them but then in Post 1598, she pushed a Nero Cain wagon as opposed to Kanye's, who had two votes on him at that time.
  
• A few other things I disliked about her was the vote on Chamber in Post 1389 since Chamber felt obvtown by that point and I didn't like the way she came off in her interaction with Zdenek about Shadoweh. I also find it odd on a re-read that that she wanted Zdenek dead before LYLO since I am reading Zdenek as pretty strongly town and I think it is apparent and I think town would want to read him as opposed to PL him before LYLO.
  
• From Kanye's end, he cautions against townreading LLD in Post 242 which he strongly defends to Nacho in Post 842. The confidence with which he does it makes me consider the possibility that he could be distancing. I also dislike that their overall interactions have been to push weak suspicion/paranoia at each other while making no hard pushes that could get the other lynched.

2) Kanye/Venmar

-

Possible

• The first interaction between Kanye and Venmar on Day 1 had Venmar scumreading Kanye for a poor reason of Kanye reading the thread after saying he wouldn't. I think it could be possible scum distancing, but on the other hand I am also not sure why Venmar would want to bring attention to a buddy with shitty reasoning. However, their later interaction where Venmar then says that the lack of follow up on his Kanye scumread should show everyone that he doesn't believe in it very much may be indicative of an early bus that Venmar doesn't want to follow through on which makes me lean scum overall.
  
• From Kanye's side, his first interaction with Venmar comes early day 2 in response to Venmar voting him. The OMGUSsy nature of it makes me wonder if Venmar is town because it seemed reactive and the "how is this indicative of a scum win condition" had a really formal tone to it that also feels like he wants to make Venmar look bad which again makes me doubt my scumread on Venmar. Kanye not liking the notion that Nero Cain/Venmar aren't scum together is odd and that makes me think one of them could be scum and he wants to leave a mislynch option open even if they flip. And if one of them is scum, my bet is on Venmar over Nero Cain. So, overall not sure and I'll refine this read soon but I independently found Venmar scummy.

3) Kanye/Reck

-

Possible

• Reck votes Kanye again in Post 1583 after he had previously switched to Tim Howard. I think his appeal to Reck in Post 1592 could possibly be scum to scum. I don't like Reck's response of "
  Kanye, who else should I vote and why?
  " and later changing to Nero Cain in Post 1603 and never putting his vote back and asking for a hammer on Nero Cain in Post 1930.
  
• One thing that concerns me is that Reck says that he thought he was picking up a cop breadcrumb with a guilty on Kanye. It is not implausible that he believed that (but it is non-alignment indicative considering scum may do the same if they thought someone had a guilty on a buddy), but he actually voted Kanye twice on D2, once when the day opened and Zdenek voted Kanye, in Post 1248, then later switched to UT and Tim, and back to Kanye again and then laid off of Kanye to stick with Nero Cain until deadline so there are definitely non-cop-guilty reasons for voting Kanye or he fluctuated between thinking there was a cop guilty and that there wasn't which I can't really follow. I wouldn't rule out a Reck-Kanye team, but Penguin feels more strongly about it than me.

4) Kanye/Shadoweh

-

Possible

• I get the impression that Kanye is trying to put Shadoweh in the null scum category when others townread her. Not sure what this says about her alignment yet because I want to check Kanye's meta to see how he treats his buddies. At first glance, it seems like a distancing/towncred type of move. For example, he responds to Ffery's question by saying that he is not getting the same townvibes he got from her that he did in ASOIAF. He tells Nacho in Post 843 that he is not convinced of his townread on Shadoweh, and then calls Shadoweh's blue thing null in Post 866 in response to Empire townreading her. Overall, he doesn't seem comfortable with Shadoweh being read as town and his motivation will be more apparent after a meta-dive on both him and Shadoweh. Kanye might have been looking for an out to not push Shadoweh on D2 as he says in Post 1238 that he was going to come swinging against Shadoweh but a Sixty kill apparently doesn't jive well with Shadoweh being scum.
  
• From Shadoweh's end, she asks in Post 1296 whether anyone voting Kanye actually want to explain why they are voting him or we were just going to stare at the votes which she re-iterates in Post 1329. It felt like a discredit based on the tone although I doubt scum-Shadoweh would blatantly talk about a wagon on a buddy like that. However, she simultaneously questions Kanye in Post 1318 asking why he didn't stay on the Tim Howard wagon as a follow up to Zdenek's questioning. She also hedges on it saying that while Zdenek is hitting a bunch of good points, there isn't much to talk about it. I want to look back at the "
  it scares me when people are sheeping me
  " in Post 1373 to the "just bloody sheep me" in Post 1388 especially considering she was leading a Kanye counterwagon. While I have an independent townread on Shadoweh, I want to look more closely to make sure.
  
• Shadoweh, a question for you: You said that Zdenek was making a bunch of good points in Post 1329 about Kanye and you even question Kanye yourself in Post 1318. Why were you so opposed to his wagon?

5) Kanye/Tim Howard

-

Possible

• Kanye places the fifth vote on the Tim wagon with six days to go before deadline and a naked vote on Tim in Post 1238 during D2. I'm not yet sure whether they are mislynch votes or bus votes. Kanye's tendency to emphasize that his vote was present on Tim may point to buddy-buddy interaction and a move at towncred. He does this a few times for example in Post 1307 in response to Zdenek asking about the Sangres vote. Kanye again calls Tim Howard scum in Post 1490 and tries to link other people to Tim Howard claiming in Post 1679 and Post 1768 that the people who unvoted Tim upon a claim are suspect. I am really not yet sure how to interpret those without meta. Comments will help.
  
• From's Tim Howard's end, they say that Kanye is on the scummier side on null and follow through on it much later with a vote on Kanye. They call out Kanye on being "useless" in Post 1207 and Post 1259 and I don't like the dismissive tone there. They say that the Kanye wagon died because he lurked it away in Post 1509 and that they could still vote him. They follow through in Post 1548 by re-iterating that they would vote him for lurking D1 and D2 and compare it with the lurking not being like the Kanye that they had seen elsewhere. Follows up in Post 1675 saying that the scumread is due to Kanye not being his ASOIAF self. He follows up in Post 1927 by a please lynch Kanye over Nero. So, overall, I felt like his suspicion flowed fairly naturally and gradually. I think that the CBD and Nacho townreads add to them being likely town. I felt that the way they claimed looked town. I'd like thoughts from others on whether Nexus/Quadz are bussers. Will look into their meta later.

6) Kanye/Plum

-

Unlikely

• Plum's vote on Kanye in Post 1805 was the fourth vote on the wagon and follows up her saying in Post 1641 that she would vote Kanye over Nero Cain. Her vote also provided the wagon the much needed boost to see it through to completion. Plum also doesn't seem to be the bussing type as I got from a (limited) meta-read of her in We're on a boat and I don't think that she'd want to bus a competent buddy like Kanye and considering support for a Kanye wagon, she would know his lynch was possible and I am seeing the vote as a pretty massive towntell.
  
• A concern I had regarding Kanye-Plum was that Plum never really said anything at all about Kanye in her ISO and she suddenly moves onto saying that she'd lynch Kanye over Nero Cain in Post 1641 and giving him the "side-eye" over the way he's been approaching Tim Howard in Post 1805. I also thought that her D1 play was scummy but she picks it up massively in D2 with the quiz-time UT in 1262 and her case on UT in Post 1275 felt tonally aggressive in a very townish way and fits what is expected of her town meta. My only remaining paranoia is that she pushed cases after being called out on not pushing cases D1 but I'm going to table that. Empire/Tammy, do you have any thoughts about the way she approached the UT case, did you find it genuine and what do you make of the way Plum voted Kanye without prior mentions of him?
  
• Plum, I have a few questions for you: can you explain what of Kanye's treatment of Tim Howard made you suspicious of him and why? Also, what of UT made you suspicious enough to go back and push a case on him? To clarify, I know
  why
  you suspected him as you outlined in your case, I more want to know what made you go back, pick UT in particular, and decide to quiz him and build a case on him and whether you decided to re-read the game as a whole.

7) Kanye/Nobody Special

-

Unlikely

• NS has Kanye as a scumread in Post 1506 where he also says that Nero is almost certainly town. He also has a scumread on Venmar in Post 1939. During deadline, he shows up in Post 1939, he leans towards voting Kanye even though he could just have hammered Nero Cain citing deadline and/or change in reads. Considering Tammy telegraphed a Kanye vote, NS's vote pretty much sealed the lynch here.
  
• I wasn't really sure what to make of his enthusiasm close to the deadline lynch since he was never really involved in the game and it felt odd when he showed up and started championing a lynch on Kanye with him being the L-1 vote. But Kanye's last posts were bad and it strengthened my scumread as well. I guess it is possible he was thinking about his old reads with Kanye as scum and Nero Cain as town and was acting on them energetically when he saw a strong townread and a strong scumread being wagoned close to deadline. It certainly is internally consistent with his previous reads and makes sense so I think it is fairly unlikely that he is in a team with Kanye.

8) Kanye/UT

-

Extremely Unlikely

• UT barely has any interaction with Kanye and he says that he nearly forgot about him in Post 1319 which I'm actually taking as a towntell because I feel it is so unlikely for scum to admit that they forgot that one of their scumbuddies were in the game as it would look bad for them at a surface level and I feel that UT if scum would have found something about Kanye to take a stance on. His overall play also feels a lot more like he was in Reckoning where his posts were carefree and unforced than as my scum partner in Wicked where he made a lot of aggressive pushes especially while bussing my slot.
  
• From Kanye's side of the interaction, the confidence with which he calls the stagnating UT wagon "incredibly fucking stupid" in Post 1494 feels like a plot at towncred as opposed to protecting a buddy considering a) The confidence with which he says it feels like scum knowing that UT is town and correctly calling him town, and b) Tammy had made an earlier wall in Post 1410 calling the UT wagon exactly that ("fucking stupid) and he likely sensed that the opportunity to mislynch UT became extremely slim at that point.
  
• I did have a small niggle on UT because he was willing to vote both Venmar and Nero Cain at deadline but not Kanye. If he thought that Venmar was so scummy, why vote the person that Venmar was pushing rather than the counterwagon. However, It can plausibly be explained by him suspecting Nero Cain earlier so he was settling for his second suspect although I don't see what he saw with Nero Cain being scummy in the first place. Overall, I'd be super-shocked if he is scum here.

9) Kanye/Nero Cain

-

Extremely Unlikely

• Penguin and I both agree that it is very unlikely that we had two scum counterwagons and the inertia around the wagons with not a lot of people moving around also furthers this idea and I think the majority of the scum were on the Nero Cain wagon. There were a few markers I looked for when scum get crosswagoned such as in Wicked Mafia which is a lot of movement around the wagons and I didn't get those same vibes here where it came down to the last voter having the hammer. Nero Cain is independently a townread of mine anyways and being a counterwagon to scum just adds to that.
  
• While I wasn't originally sure what to make of Post 1227 where he had Venmar as a top suspect and Kanye as a secondary one, his flow of suspicion onto Kanye felt gradual and his annoyance at Kanye in Post 1502 where he thought that Kanye was setting up chain lynches felt genuine. I feel that quite a lot of his reads in Post 1622 made sense even if he had Kanye somewhere around the null zone. I also thought that his paranoia of our slot felt town and his overall play makes a lot of sense from a town POV.

10) Kanye/chamber

-

Extremely Unlikely

• Chamber doesn't have a lot of interaction with Kanye D1 and he doesn't focus much on Kanye except to say in Post 1576 that Kanye vs Nero would be acceptable. This matches up with his later play and reluctance to vote Kanye because Nero also had a wagon on him and for the most part was a bigger suspect of Chamber's.
  
• Chamber's interaction around the hammer starting around Post 1905 and continuing until the end of D2 where he tried to get Nero Cain lynched over Kanye felt extremely uninformed and he never showed any sort of hesitation in pushing the Kanye counterwagon. His reaction after the hammer also felt natural and while it possible he faked it, I don't buy that the entire build-up, the push for Tammy to hammer Nero Cain, the hope that she changed her mind, and then the eventual disappointment was faked as convincingly as it happened. I already thought Chamber was obvtown for several reasons and his interactions with Kanye just solidify my townread here.

11) Kanye/Zdenek

-

Extremely Unlikely

• Zdenek's interactions with Kanye come off as incredibly town as he genuinely pursues his suspicion of Kanye often with a lot of follow up especially in Post 850 and Post 1002 and Kanye's tone towards Zdenek feels like appeasing a townie as opposed to interacting with a buddy particularly in Post 157.
  
• Their Day 2 interactions where Zdenek along with Plessiez were the major pushers of the Kanye wagon points strongly against Zdenek being scum. I like his reasoning to vote Kanye in Post 1298, their continued interaction for the next ten or so posts and his push on Kanye for sidelining his vote and trying to prove it in Post 1313 felt quite obviously town and not from scum partners. But most of all, his persistent and continued push to drive the Kanye wagon and lead the lynch makes me absolutely certain that Zdenek is town.

12) Kanye/Cerulean

-

Extremely Unlikely

• Cerulean are pretty blatantly town based off of their interactions with Kanye if they weren't already obvtown. Tammy was the first player to pick up that something was off about Kanye as evidenced by her *twitch* in Post 242 which she later follows up on Post 513 and Post 596 elaborating on Kanye's early coasting bugging her as well as picking up on the fact that Kanye gets good early reads and the progression of her suspicion felt incredibly genuine.
  
• Empire's questions to Kanye in Post 860 feels like a natural follow-up of what he and Tammy had found off about Kanye's play and I feel like the responses were alignment indicative. Particularly his questioning about whether Kanye had developed reads on Sixty based off when he had wagoned them at the beginning of the game and deducing that he was likely scum based off of his responses.
  
• Tammy's Post 1566 elaborating on the nature of Kanye's early game coasting and deviations from his town meta and the subsequent call out to Kanye in Post 1695 and Post 1697 felt like a natural follow up of her suspicion. The desire to sort Kanye through interaction matches up exactly with the way I know Tammy sorts her reads out as town especially people that she hates to mislynch and Cerulean's entire interaction with Kanye feels blatantly obviously town. That's not even mentioning that Tammy could easily have voted Nero Cain over Kanye citing her reluctance to mislynch him and I feel that her not taking that route felt super town as well.

That turned out to be a lot longer than I expected and if you actually read through this massive info-dump that's not even fully finished (I need to refine the "possible" group into what's actually "likely" through meta-analysis so will probably end up with a smaller pool), then you have all the love and respect I can give you and you are a really awesome person.

~ F-16

[Flipping Awesome]

I cannot understand, Flipping, why you see that post of all to be town, especially with the reasoning you gave. "Too obvious to be scum" is not a thing, and you know it.

UT is not incapable of fabricating reads on his scumbuddies: Read his ISO in Wicked Mafia and he is aggressive, confident, overly certain in his reads on his scumpartners. I could maybe see a point that his aggression here might be scummy but I am unconvinced that scum-UT has trouble faking reads on his partners and that while he is confident in his reads on townies, he suddenly falls apart when asked to talk about a scumpartner. Note, Ghatokaca was a hydra of Nacho and me and Osseus (UT/T-Bone) hydra spent nearly their entire time in the game tunneling on us. UT's (and his partner's) posts felt fake then at a gut level, not least because they betrayed his knowledge that we were scum and tonally, he came across as

too

certain. UT's posts don't feel fake now, and his interaction with Kanye didn't send up the kind of red flags I was looking for. It is not "too obvious to be scum," it is something I think scum would take care not to do.

[Flipping Awesome]

FA, you're being a little bit obtuse/circuitous but your conclusions are probably decent in a general way (I'll give you a hint, apparently there's a degree to which I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't improve my play/start pushing things better after being called out on it? Also trying to meta-assess my inclination to bus based on one scumgame where I had

one

buddy in a 13-player game? I'm just saying there are definitely some things here that you're taking a very blunt approach to).

Kanye was pushing the idea that TH's proven claim and the way it all came out had

no

effect on whether he was likely to be scum-aligned. That just seemed wrong to me. It wasn't as if he really did much with the notion, and at this point I'm not sure if that was a move supposed to support a specific agenda on kanye's part vs. just spreading the Mist - in fact, at no point could I particularly parse it.

I first really noticed UT when he rejected motivation &c. based thinking about the "beetlejuice tell" regarding myself. Then I did some thinking and reading, mostly of him.

I've just read one scum game of yours so far so I have a baseline. If I had more, I'd have been more certain of my read on you and I probably will in the future. You pointing this out makes me lean more town though.

And you are right that you may be in damned if you do, damned if you don't scenario but the skepticism is coming from the fact that you haven't active on Day 1 without anyone prodding you about it. I'll take your word for it that scum don't make themselves as obvious to you as Pasch did that game and each game is different but I won't have that certainty until I see a larger body of work from you.

You are right about Kanye's comments on TH. I thought that the way he claimed felt somewhat townish too and it made me reconsider while Kanye ploughed on so I can see it as a reason to vote him.

[Flipping Awesome]

Plum, can you link me to a couple of your scumgames besides the We're on a boat game?

[Flipping Awesome]

How do you think kayne/LLD reactions here compare to Scummies Invitational 2012 where they were scum together? Specifically, kayne deciding to throw out suspicion on her early for little reasoning vs deciding to hard buddy her because he could? You come to the conclusion that he 'wasn't comfortable with Shadoweh being read as town' and conclude that means we could be scum together? Why would he want people to read me as scum if we were scum together? Also I know you already read Fall of Gondolin, so if you'd like to argue that I nightkilled the highest profile player defending me who was also Sixty please go ahead. I think you'll find kayne was throwing out alot of opinions that make sense but don't tell much about the person's alignment at the time. (Things like 'this blue thing is null' and 'Shadoweh probably didn't kill Sixty' might as well be statements of fact.) Also in my defense early Day 2 really was quite boring and no one was talking.

I am not saying he wants other people to read you as scum but rather seemed to always have you in his null/scum pile even when others townread you. It is possible that if you flipped scum, he'd want to look good which he probably might if for instance Nacho townreads you and he claims it is null, and then people go back and see that he was right. I'll admit I am essentially speculating about his motivations here which is why I am not going beyond saying that it is possible for you to be scum together.

I didn't read Scummies Invitational but I might at some point so I'll get back to you on it.

I think you're making it sound like I was more opposed then I was, which wasn't really alot. I thought TH was a better wagon at the time (he might still be tbh) and after Reck made clear he wasn't claiming a guilty I didn't see kayne's wagon going anywhere. There was no momentum behind it. Presumably because he was scum, but hindsight etc. I'm still surprised yesterday went like it did. It shall be called The Day 16 People Screamed TAMMY in Unison.

Geez most of your wall is you not being sure on anything. >_> So question, do you think there was only one scum who got on quick enough to bus Kayne and you think that scum was Tim Howard? Honest question since you're clearing p much everyone else on his wagon.

I'm pretty sure about the people I said are extremely unlikely to be scum. It is easier to clear people through interaction analysis and POE than to condemn them unless something sticks out really glaringly.

Let's look at the wagon: Plessiez (flipped town), Zdenek (obvtown, I don't think you disagree), Tim Howard (Not sure), Plum (Probably town and I explained why although I am looking at an older scumgame of her to verify her bussing tendencies), FA (we know we are town), Nero Cain (counterwagon, and I explained why I didn't think it was scum v scum, and he felt town anyways), NS (I talked about how his thought processes are consistent. Admittedly, I am not massively confident in this), and Cerulean (again obvtown). So, where's the scum? If someone bussed, it is probably among Tim, Plum, and NS. Tell me where you disagree.

[Flipping Awesome]

I hope you're not just planning to give it to Flipping again, he's already gotten a turn.

Why is this an issue?

[Flipping Awesome]

Not really no. I don't think they'd be killing on the wagon if it were scum loaded either. NS being scum would be weird since it p much made Kaynehammer possible. I certainly don't want to lynch on-wagon today.

I think that's a silly assumption to make, if he never actually voted me no one was ever going to give him credit for being right maybe on Day 1. I don't think your possibility rankings are based on reading kayne that much though since your Venmar read is basically 'prob not but i already thought he was scum'. (btw I am probably the only person who actually read your entire wall and can ccomment on it)

Edit: Because yoou're boring and I want toys to play with.

My wall was mostly to see if I could clear people of being scum and I was able to do that with Nero, UT, Chamber, Zdenek, and Cerulean. I don't think it is impossible for Kanye and Venmar to be scum and that's what I got from looking over the two of them.

I don't think my assumption regarding you was silly and I have seen scum play similarly before. I don't want to go too in-depth into it because I don't think you are scum at this point after going over some of your earlier posts and I think this is probably a dead end. My point was that I didn't see a you-Kanye scumteam to be impossible and there wasn't something glaring that stuck out to let me POE you out.

Where do you think the likely scumteam lie?

[Flipping Awesome]

TAMMY!!

My turn to call you out now.

[Flipping Awesome]

I'm about to head out in a little, but I just remembered: Tammy, if you get to this point before you pass out and still have energy left, could you talk about how Kanye has treated his scumbuddies based off of your past experience with him? I'm going to dig into his meta a little to get an understanding but I'd love it if you could give a firsthand account. It'll help me make more sense of his interactions.

[Flipping Awesome]

Re: UT, I can maybe see why you'd disagree with me about UT being a Kanye buddy since it is based on a foundation of what I think UT would do as scum. I guess it is debatable whether he would forget a scumbuddy. However, I do think that Kanye's stance on the declining UT wagon saying that the votes there are fucking stupid points pretty strongly to UT-town and I think UT is playing to his town-meta independently of whether or not he could be a Kanye buddy so I'd be pretty surprised if he was scum here. I'll admit though that of the people in the extremely unlikely category, UT was the one I was most waffling on and least sure about. Particularly the end of day vote on Nero Cain bugged me. But then I remembered what Tammy said about UT being prone to logical leaps as town that gets him suspected and then it started making a little more sense.

[Flipping Awesome]

Shadoweh
chamber
Plum
Venmar
Untrod Tripod
Flipping Awesome
xRECKONERx

Alright, assuming 2-3 scum left they're solidly in this group.

Cerulean is town because of the hammer in the last day. I mean, potentially gambitting for town cred but like, that feels weird and bad to me in that situation.
NS is town for his vote on that wagon and how he played the end of Day 2.
Tim Howard is staying in a town book right now because the people he can be scum with just aren't scum.
Zdenek is pretty solidly town, with his voting patterns and how he's held himself this game.
Nero Cain is town. Just cause.

So there's the 7 above us. I'll be damned if Shadoweh is scum, just based on things I've seen.

The other 6, I'm having a hard time. I feel like Plum and Reckoner and Chamber are town but that leaves Venmar and UT and Flipping Awesome and that feels supremely weird too.

I have to wonder if my paranoia about chamber wasn't wrong and I maybe dropped that pressure too early.

Plum is another person I'm having @_@ feelings about but she still feels strongly town for me.

Honestly, if you went for like,

one of Venmar/UT (UT is the right answer here but I'm totally falliable in this game cause I've been so removed for so long)
Flipping Awesome
And like, either one of Chamber/Plum (OR I'm really wrong about someone who I feel super town on, and they'd be moved into this slot.

I feel like that might win the game? I'm just not as certain as I should be at this point in a game cause I'm so out of loop.

I need people to work with me on this, cause my brain works on weird backwards logic that works in my head but when I try to put into words fails to get my points across.

Your scumreads consist of us and the players we are townreading with varying degrees of certainty. UT is one of my stronger townreads, Chamber an even stronger one, and Plum who a weaker townread. Venmar is probably the only one that I think could be scum.

While I agree that NS is probably town for his vote on the Kanye wagon, why isn't Plum a townread as well by similar logic? Her vote definitely swayed the direction of the lynch toward Kanye.

Can you elaborate on your townread on Shadoweh?

[Flipping Awesome]

Also, just to let everyone know, Penguin's been busy irl and it is very likely that most or all posts from now on will be just me.

[Flipping Awesome]

Also, just to let everyone know, Penguin's been busy irl and it is very likely that most or all posts from now on will be just me.

Mod, I will be V/LA for a week (through 6/4) due to personal issues. I apologize to you and the players; F-16 has my blessing to kick me out of the hydra and go solo should he choose, given the length of the V/LA.

[Flipping Awesome]

Re: UT, I can maybe see why you'd disagree with me about UT being a Kanye buddy since it is based on a foundation of what I think UT would do as scum. I guess it is debatable whether he would forget a scumbuddy. However, I do think that Kanye's stance on the declining UT wagon saying that the votes there are fucking stupid points pretty strongly to UT-town and I think UT is playing to his town-meta independently of whether or not he could be a Kanye buddy so I'd be pretty surprised if he was scum here. I'll admit though that of the people in the extremely unlikely category, UT was the one I was most waffling on and least sure about. Particularly the end of day vote on Nero Cain bugged me. But then I remembered what Tammy said about UT being prone to logical leaps as town that gets him suspected and then it started making a little more sense.

I fell asleep in the middle of reading your associative wall and am getting ready to head to work, but real quick a case in point about the logical leaps. In yoloville, ut replaced in and had a gut scum read on ces but at some point decided something that had been said was a pretty clear indication of shadoweh scum who then was wagoned pretty strongly. But then near deadline he jumped off because of his gut read on ces and when I tried to figure out why and cited that claim of reasons for a stronger evidence of shadoweh being scum, he just argued with me about what the word evidence should mean in a mafia game. To me it didn't make sense at all and we ended up mislynching him instead :/. (I'm going off memory here, I'm pretty sure it was shadoweh though).

Just read though those pages and I think I have a better grasp of UT's approach to wagons. I think UT doesn't place a lot of importance on relative reads, i.e. his reads on one player is unlikely to influence his reads on others (like Shadoweh vs CES/the wagon on Benmage being a ruse) so his choice of Nero Cain over Kanye makes sense and that eliminates my niggles about him so I am pretty much banking the game on five players being town right now.

Can you elaborate on your townread on Reck?

[Flipping Awesome]

Posting this here for reference. Going to get through most of these in a bit. If there are any other games that would be interesting to look at, feel free to make suggestions. Also, Nexus/Quadz, links to your past games would be awesome.

Spoiler: Links to past meta

1) LLD

TOWN: Mini 1531: Mafia Pinnipedum, Mini 1538: Powerful Wizards
SCUM: Scummies Invitational 2012

2) Venmar

TOWN: Micro 260: The X-Men, Mini 1526: OC Remix, Xenosaga Mafia
SCUM: Micro 53: Minimalist Mafia, Mini 1442: House of Cards, Mini 1539: UDesign

2) xReckonerx

TOWN: The Reckoning III, Fall Of Gondolin
SCUM: The Red Wedding

3) Nexus

TOWN: The Red Wedding, Mafiastuck, UK Scummer's
SCUM:

4) Quadz

TOWN:
SCUM: A uPick of Ice and Fire

5) Shadoweh

TOWN: /in-vitational 12: Mafia in #yoloville, A uPick of Ice and Fire
SCUM: Mini 1489: VisCon: Murder in Wingate Mansion, The Fall of Gondolin

6) Plum

TOWN: Mini 1537: Attack on Titan, Mini 1538: Powerful Wizards, Mini 1531: Mafia Pinnipedum
SCUM: Mini 1501: We're on a Boat, POWERFUL WIZARD MAFIA, Open 298: Follow the Cop, Might of Mordor

Spoiler: Kanye Scum games

Kanyeknowsbest Scum Meta Overview

1) Scummies Invitational 2012

2) Mini 1531: Mafia Pinnipedum

3) Mini 1541: Artificial Reality

4) Mini 1538: Powerful Wizards

5) Micro 83: The Room

6) Micro 12: Chain of Command

[Flipping Awesome]

Are you talking about this game as Team Mafia 2012? Reck isn't in it.

[Flipping Awesome]

Ah, okay I found it. I'll re-read the thread again and post more about it. And I hope you get well soon, Tammy.

[Flipping Awesome]

So I'm remembering why I was not wanting to post in here before and us very quickly running the deadline down to nothhing while doing nothing makes me extra wary of this LLD lynch.

I don't understand the significance of this. Can you elaborate?

I don't remember how I felt about Venmar but he's at the same level yet doesn't seem to have any support to go further?

Are you implying that you think Venmar is scum because of this?

I kind of think today is just going to be a wash anyways, thx mafiascum.net. Honestly the main thing turning me off is how similar LLD's voters are to kayne's. (including my own vote. Which makes me wonder who the fuck im listening to that's wrong.)

This isn't particularily helpful gamewise but I'm trying out this posting in the thread thing to shake off this paranoia about postin in the thread about my doubts. Tammy plz get better and also tell me who I should be voting since ur a much better mafia player then Empire!

Also, what do you mean when you say you are "turned off by how similar LLD's voters are to kayne's."

Spoiler: Here are the votecounts

Day 2, VC 28

kanyeknowsbest - (8):

Plessiez, Zdenek, Tim Howard, Plum, Flipping Awesome, Nero Cain, Nobody Special, Cerulean

Nero Cain - (7):

Shadoweh, Venmar, Lady Lambdadelta, xRECKONERx, kanyeknowsbest, Untrod Tripod, chamber

Not voting - (0):

--

With

15

alive it takes

8

to lynch.
Deadline for Day 1:

11th of May at 8:10pm

Irish Time - countdown: (expired on 2014-05-11 15:10:00)[/color]
No one is V/la.[/area]

Day 3, VC 9

Lady Lambdadelta - (5)

chamber, Untrod Tripod, Tim Howard, xRECKONERx, Zdenek

Venmar - (4)

Cerulean, Nero Cain, Plum, Nobody Special

Untrod Tripod - (2)

Venmar, Lady Lambdadelta

Not voting - (3):

Flipping Awesome, Shadoweh

With

13

alive it takes

7

to lynch.
Deadline for Day 1:

3rd of June at 2:15am

Irish Time - countdown: (expired on 2014-06-02 21:15:00)

Venmar will be lynched with 6 votes this day phase.

2/5 of the LLD voters were Kanye voters, the remaining 3/5 weren't.

[Flipping Awesome]

I have a few things I want to look into and discuss with Tammy before ending the day. I'd prefer to lynch LLD over Venmar although I am scumreading both of them but I don't want to vote just yet and let Venmar hammer just in case. I'd much rather be the hammer at a time I'm comfortable with.

[Flipping Awesome]

@ Tammy, I mostly wanted to discuss your read on Reck after I go through a few of his games, that's why I didn't want to end the day. I haven't finished checking them out yet so I'll post some of my thoughts once I do that which is probably going to be tomorrow. What's your best guess at a scumteam at this point? Also, do you and Empire have any thoughts about NS? I remember reading a game where Empire figured out NS pretty quickly and I am wondering what he thought of his play here before he left.

[Flipping Awesome]

Here's where I am at right now:

Strongly Town: {Cerulean, Zdenek, Untrod Tripod, Nero Cain} - Based on interaction analysis with Kanye
Not entirely certain: {Shadoweh, xReckx, Tim Howard, Plum, NS} - I am thinking three town and two scum here
Scum: {Venmar}

I'm going to go through each of the players in the leftover pile soon. I think Venmar is scum especially after that hammer. I had specifically said I wanted to wait and discuss stuff so the timing of it was unwarranted.

[Flipping Awesome]

I told Chamber I had concerns about you. He pretty much said that it was far more likely we were scum than you. He also said that Nero Cain being scum explains Cerulean's hammer (he was mostly scumreading Cerulean). He felt that the wagon analysis falls apart if Nero Cain is scum.

[Flipping Awesome]

I told him that Tammy's play doesn't make any sense as scum and elaborated a bit going into how the way she caught Kanye after finding his initial posts off didn't seem like a bus and would have been unnecessary, and how calling me out and telling me that she wanted to nail down reads on me and Plessiez as we were two of the players she could read easily and work with felt town. Oh, he also said that Tammy knows Pless from offsite so Pless kill makes sense from Cerulean-scum (lol, I expect some good natured ribbing at Chamber from Tammy and Empire after the game ends).

We didn't discuss Nero Cain as much. My read on him is mostly by the way he feels when he pushes his reads. NY169 is a good example (he was one head of the KoreanBBQ hydra) and it is harder to explain why it feels town - basically gut feel.

As for you, I just need time. I've gotten solid reads on five players (Cerulean, Zdenek, UT, NeroCain, Venmar) and now I am going to sort the rest.

I still don't understand what you were referring to when you said LLD voters were different from Kanye voters or what your thought process was or how it related to anyone's affiliation. I know you explained it to Tammy but it wasn't clear even the third time what you meant.

[Flipping Awesome]

But tell me why you are obviously town, Shadoweh.

[Flipping Awesome]

Also, what do you mean by the "flip off" comment and where do you stand on your reads at the moment?

[Flipping Awesome]

I didn't switch NS (or you) to a scumread. I said I wasn't entirely sure. I have both of you in a pile that I still need to develop solid reads on. I actually didn't change anything from my mega-wall, I still have the "extremely unlikely" category as strong town. Everybody else I need to sort. And yeah, I think NS is probably town (Plum too) but it is a weaker read that I wouldn't bank the game on (I would for Cerulean, Zdenek, UT, and Nero Cain) so he's not someone I'm going to put aside entirely.

I'm assuming you are talking about Chamber as your rant buddy. Is there anything else you want to talk about regarding your QT discussion?

Why do you expect me to get night killed (if that's what you mean by flip over)?

As for the actual night kills, I expected Cerulean, Sixty, or Chamber (in that order) to get nk'd based on reputation as well as being a threat to scum. Sixty and Chamber did get killed on N1 and N3. I felt Pless kill was expected based on his hard push on Kanye which made him obvtown upon Kanye's flip. Also, Tammy saying she could bounce thoughts off of him and me suggesting that Cerulean be protected means scum's best means of disrupting that was to kill Plessiez. Chamber kill I think it was due to him being obvtown but I wouldn't discount that it was meant to throw people off and start suspecting Nero Cain. I'm sure he had private QT's with quite a lot of people (including scum), and everyone was aware of what his reads were.

In Post 2210, and Post 2252, you spent a lot of time not taking a solid stance on either of the wagons. I still don't get what you mean in 2252 by this quote:

Honestly the main thing turning me off is how similar LLD's voters are to kayne's. (including my own vote. Which makes me wonder who the fuck im listening to that's wrong.

Can you clear it up?

[Flipping Awesome]

Shadoweh, I realized now that you addressed the question in your previous post, I didn't even know that that was the question you were answering. You talked about how LLD's wagon was different from Venmar's wagon which isn't what I was asking. The reason I initially asked the question D3 was I wanted to see if you would commit to a stance on whether LLD was town or scum but you didn't. I asked why you thought the Kanye voters were different because I wanted to see what conclusion you would draw from it. I think logically, if a wagon has very different players on it than a previous scumwagon, I might be inclined to think that they were town. I wanted to know if you were saying LLD was town because the people that wagoned her are different from the people that wagoned Kanye. You were fairly vague about what it meant so I needed elaboration.

[Flipping Awesome]

I am still okay with a Venmar lynch but I don't want to rush it. I want to re-read the entire game again to develop more reads. I'll post in more detail tomorrow.

[Flipping Awesome]

I know I said I'd get to this today and I spent a bunch of time reading a few other games but not enough to develop any new reads. No one hammer for a couple more days please and thanks.

Also, Plum, I'd like your thoughts on Mafia Pinnipedum where you've seen Kanye as scum and if you can shed any insight into how he treats his buddies.

[Flipping Awesome]

Venmar interactions suck. I think he knew was going to get lynched at some point and minimized a lot of his interactions so we can't clear people. I'll post in more detail in a bit.

Nk was weird but I still can't see Cerulean, Zdenek, Nero Cain, or UT as scum. But I'll go over Venmar interactions with them as well.

[Flipping Awesome]

Lol, I like your pink avatar. Who else besides Tim Howard is scum?

[Flipping Awesome]

Well, for one, if UT committed to a bus on Venmar, I don't see why he would be too shy to bus Kanye as well. It is possible he wanted to keep a better scum player like Kanye alive over him. But then, there is also the fact that Venmar was voting UT at the start of D3 and it seemed like he genuinely wanted UT dead. The other is meta. He isn't playing anything like in Wicked Mafia where he was my scumpartner. His pushes there were aggressive and he had way too much certainty about us flipping scum. Here, he isn't really certain about anything and is moving his suspicion around a lot which feels more natural. I do want to re-evaluate him to make sure though since a non-Cerulean NK would make sense if they are off on their reads. So, expect a more detailed explanation soon.

[Flipping Awesome]

Spoiler: Meta links for xReckx, NS, Tim, Plum

1) xReckonerx

TOWN: The Reckoning III, Fall Of Gondolin
SCUM: The Red Wedding, TM2012

2) Plum

TOWN: Mini 1537: Attack on Titan, Mini 1538: Powerful Wizards, Mini 1531: Mafia Pinnipedum
SCUM: Mini 1501: We're on a Boat, POWERFUL WIZARD MAFIA, Open 298: Follow the Cop, Might of Mordor

3) NobodySpecial

TOWN: NY160B: Welcome to Castle Zar
SCUM: Micro 70: Mafia in Triplicate

4) Tim Howard

TOWN: The Red Wedding (Nexus), UK Scummer's (Nexus)
SCUM: A uPick of Ice and Fire (Quadz)

Spoiler: Kanye Scum games

Kanyeknowsbest Scum Meta

1) Scummies Invitational 2012

2) Mini 1531: Mafia Pinnipedum

3) Mini 1541: Artificial Reality

4) Mini 1538: Powerful Wizards

5) Micro 83: The Room

6) Micro 12: Chain of Command

I did a cursory look through all of those games and didn't really find anything that was particularly useful in the way Kanye interacts with his buddies as scum. In Pinnipedum, he pretty much went with the flow of the game and commented on whatever advanced the game. In Artificial reality, he hard townread one of his buddies (Om of the Nom), going so far as to defend him from a cop guilty and WIFOM saying that he is good as scum and wouldn't so blatantly defend his buddies. So, overall I think Shadoweh is right in that he is good at masking scum-scum interactions. I'll re-read the game though to see how the interactions developed from the other side and how others reacted to Kanye/Venmar and that should shed some light.

Spoiler: Venmar Scum games

Venmar Scum Meta

1) Micro 53: Minimalist Mafia

2) Mini 1442: House of Cards

3) Mini 1539: UDesign

4) Open 470: Cat's Eye

5) Open 424: Jungle Republic

6) Open 414: Nightless Vengeful Mayhem

7) Open 399: Faith Plus One

Going to go through all of these in a little bit. Empire, do you remember anything about how Venmar treated his scumbuddies in the Micro 53 game you played with him?

[Flipping Awesome]

Tim Howard

:

You say in this post that you liked what you saw from Plum. Elaborate on what you liked.

You're all getting het up about the fact that we said that causing someone to feel shitty about their play is a pro thing to do, yet you don't see anything wrong with the way you acted? Fuck me, you were horrible enough to someone to cause them to want to replace out within the first ten pages of the game. Regardless of alignment, or what she did first, it's a shitty thing to do, and the fact you don't even feel bad is hilarious to me. It was me who forced Quadz to say it, because I felt strongly that it was a really crappy thing to do.

My current thoughts for scum are Zdenek and Cerulean. Obviously you're all gonna be like LOL IT'S COS THEY VOTED YOU but trust me, it's not

Zdenek is trying to be all town-leadery, from my pov, and I don't think he has the skill to do it, so it strikes me as odd. Cerulean I just don't like their posts. I will go through and find specific examples

if you really want

but you could just believe me and we'll be fine.

People who can go on the town pile: Nero Cain, Venmar, LLD and Plum. I've liked what I've seen from those people.

-Nexus out

At the point you made the post, Plum had three posts so far:

I tried to find the content, but it seems to be one of

those games

etc. Too many players whose opinion of their own mafia play is coming out of their ears.

VOTE: Cerulean

Empire, elaborate on the purpose of your first post please. In the meantime, this.

Though also my initial reaction was that today is not at all a bad day for LLD to haiku-nuke someone, but in the long run this is actually probably not the case (certainly not if it's mapped out from this point in time) so who cares.

Sure, I'll take it.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Venmar

Sponteneity is a virtue, after all.

V/LA until Wednesday night EDT, Passover. Sorry for inconvenience.

One is a request for Empire to elaborate on his first post with a vote for Cerulean, role speculation and a complaint about the lack of content. The second is vote for your townread, the third is a V/LA post.

[Flipping Awesome]

xRECKx

:

VOTE: tim howard

oy fuckin vey the last couple of pages

unvote vote Tim Howard

wait why

They just have a really big persecution complex but experience dictates that a persecution complex does not make someone mafia.

Why do you object to UT's vote on Tim Howard here when you were voting him too?

[Flipping Awesome]

But you didn't provide any reasoning though. You just said that the last couple of pages made Tim Howard scum and joined the wagon which Reck was on. Then he asked why and said that a persecution complex didn't make anyone scum. So, I guess a charitable interpretation would be that Reck found Tim's early posts scummy but not so much those past few pages and that's why he took issue with your vote. But his subsequent posts suggest that he wasn't actually townreading Tim Howard either where he says "it feels very much like quadz could be scum" in Post 423.

---

What I want to know is if Quadz could be scum, what's the issue with UT's vote?

[Flipping Awesome]

So, I am re-reading the game and thinking about it and I am not sure how it makes sense. If I am right about my townreads on Nero Cain, Zdenek, Cerulean, and UT, that leaves two scum among Reck, Tim Howard, Plum, and Nobody Special. The problem is that unless Reck is scum, I can't see any of the other players making the night kills that they are making. {Sixty, Plessiez, Chamber, Shadoweh}. For one, I'd expect Cerulean to be night killed pretty quickly possibly on N1 since they are the largest threat in this game to any scumteam.

The Plessiez kill on N2 wasn't a huge surprise. I was afraid of losing Cerulean but thought my hint at protective roles being on them might have deterred a kill. Tammy's post towards the end of D2 saying that she wanted to nail down reads on me and Plessiez to get a better sense of the game made me think that one of us or Plessiez would be killed. With the way the Kanye lynch went down, Plessiez being more obvtown than me made him the ideal kill.

Chamber kill on N3 was somewhat surprising and I do agree with Shadoweh that his reads felt weird. His biggest scumreads were us, Cerulean, and Nero Cain. I'm pretty sure he told that to everyone that those were his reads and I feel he is on the wrong track for the most part. I think scum would kill him to frame those players. My first thoughts on Shadoweh questioning me about Chamber's thoughts was that she was the scum setting us up through the nk but I chose not to say anything at that time in thread to see how the game pans out further and I wanted to see who else would be nk'd and what Venmar would flip.

I was pretty surprised to see Shadoweh killed on N4. If the scumteam truly is among Reck, NS, Plum, Tim, I don't think they've set themselves up for endgame very well. If I trust Tammy's read on Reck, it feels even less likely that the scum are {Tim, Plum, NS} making the kills that they made and it overall just doesn't make sense.

I'm also eager to hear who Empire's other scumread is because if you are town, I really think we are both wrong somewhere readswise. I don't know if you disagree with any of my reads. There is not a snowballs chance in hell Zdenek or Nero Cain are scum in this game. We're both agreed UT is town. Tammy says Reck is town which leaves Tim, and the other scum between Plum and NS which isn't really making a whole lot of sense. I am not even super confident in Tim being scum. They are a pain to meta since I don't really know which posts are whose unless they sign and finding their games has been annoying as well. If you could outline a few points and links really quick when you have time, that'll be awesome. I am talking more of specific posts that make you think it won't come from town-Nexus, or town-Quadz.

[Flipping Awesome]

Plum, first off regarding the outside thread contact: Chamber wasn't a self-watcher. His role is basically that everyone who visits him enters into a private QT with him. That's obviously why he wanted Zdenek to target him D1, and that's why Shadoweh and I had out of thread contact with Chamber.

Calling Shadoweh's questions "incisive" is kind of a stretch.

Explain your scumread on Reck please. Explanation of other reads would be awesome as well.

[Flipping Awesome]

Plum, have you changed your mind on your scumread on UT? If so, what prompted it?

By POE, you mean you are townreading all other players (besides me/TH and Reck) if I understand correctly. Can you explain them?

And yeah, Reck was on the wrong end of most wagons. I haven't yet figured out if it means anything.

[Flipping Awesome]

I'll be the fourth prod dodge.

[Flipping Awesome]

I read your D1 ISO in Red Wedding as well. I have no idea what to make of it yet.

[Flipping Awesome]

Don't prod me. I'll post soon.

[Flipping Awesome]

I decided I wanted to re-read this 100 page game but only got till the twenties. I'm still thinking about it. I'm not really going to fight this lynch and I don't have an alternative but give it another 24 hours at least. I want to hear Zdenek's latest thoughts and where he is at right now and whether he wants to go in a different direction.

[Flipping Awesome]

I expected Chamber to die night two actually. I thought that his comment when Empire voted Plum that it wasn't the direction for the day was an indication that he had an innocent on her and was a cop, but then when Plum commented to LLD that her Chamber vote was wrong was an indication that she knew he was town too and then I thought he was a weak neighborizer as that seemed to fit both of their reactions.

Empire is shocked over Shadoweh's death but I'm not. Although yesterday when he posted his town reads, I talked to him for a few minutes because I was pretty surprised he didn't have Shadoweh in his town reads by that point. I'm not exactly sure why he didn't. I also can't answer for Empire right now. A few days ago something came back up for Empire and he doesn't have the time or motivation for mafia again. I tried to talk to him about his reads, but his response was that just can't deal with mafia right now, so you're just stuck with me. I'm gonna hold out hope he'll get back into it, but I can't promise anything but now that Tales of is done I can hopefully get back some of my own energy for mafia. I need to readjust some things as I've been operating with a Plum confirmed innocent which apparently doesn't exist and Empire was still wary about her and doesn't have her as town. I'm pretty sure that most of the posts of Tim Howard are quadz, and I totally get why Nexus dropped out during day one because hi! but that's been long blown over, so I'm not sure why he's not posting now, and that's a little worrisome to me. If I were to go out on a limb and guess over the Tim Howard thing, it *might* have something to do with them being partners in ASoIaF? That's pure conjecture though. I suck at reading quadz as I pretty much helped to derail his lynch day one in that game and was wrong, so I'm pretty much defaulting to Empire's last read especially considering he's been more on target than I have this game.

I was shocked at Shadoweh being nk'd myself. Are you still townreading Reck and UT? Also, you seem uncertain about Tim Howard, so I'm looking forward to you getting back into the game to figure out where we need to go? At this rate, it seems like Tim Howard is going to get hammered and I am still a bit lost as to why they are being lynched. But there is also nothing about them I can point to and say that it is town for sure. Nacho had a fairly decent townread on them when he last gave out a reads list and CDB did as well and that makes me unsure. Empire's reads aside, how are you feeling about the game right now?

[Flipping Awesome]

I am still town reading UT. I still think all the things I've said about UT hold. I am still leaning town on Reck. I find it a little weird about him getting *bothered* that people are using Red Wedding to read him with, but maybe I'm just feeling bothered because I feel like it's me it's directed towards when it's a model I used for the Reckoning and it served me well, so once he flips scum while I'm using my model, I'll ditch it but it still feels right? The thing is in the Red Wedding it wasn't about him just lurking. He tried to kinda play up the "I don't give a shit about this game" type attitude that he also did in Team Mafia and for some reason people read him as town for. If you look at the Red Wedding, it's clear that yes he was lurking, but on the occasions he did post it was clear that he had absolutely no idea what was going on with the gamestate. I mean maybe I am wrong to use the Red Weddubg, he was my partner, I knew he was scum so that influences how I viewed his posts in that game, but I still think he's tonally different. I've never meta'd him to see if he has a different scum game, though posts like Post 407 don't sound like the disconnected, lurking scum I've seen before, and more on par with what I've seen of him as town. If he is a more capable scum player though, it's not in my experience.

The thing that makes me feel unsure on Tim Howard is the same sort of thing that made me frustrated that people were scum reading ffery in Tales of. She didn't have reads, when I think she could have easily rambled off reads, but tbf for ffery she had demonstrated some things that empire had pointed out to me that were ffery's town tells. *My* main problem with Tim Howard is that lack of really anything. Nexus not posting does worry me. I was in Abarat when he didn't post except for like once. In Red Wedding he posted somewhat regularly, but in Mafiastuck I'm not sure that he did. (Faraday has a habit of posting as his hydra partner so it's hard to be sure what was going on there.) But other than that, I don't really have a reason to fight empire's read, and it was an early read for him along with Venmar, so I feel like he's more on point here, especially considering that I almost unvoted Venmar yesterday due to softening on him and that would have been terrible. Anyway, I'm kind of empire could be completely on target here and I'll just wait to see if he is and deal with it tomorrow, and based on how things have been playing out in the night game, I'll be here tomorrow. So, if he is scum, I can do a wealth of interaction analysis, and if not I can reset and figure out where we've been going wrong.

Hmmm I haven't reviewed Nacho's readslist. Is there anyone he thought was scum that is still alive. I guess that might be worth pursuing, but I do know that sometimes unless he can really read someone well his early town reads can be misguided a bit. (I had to argue with him quite a bit about an early town read he gave cabd in we the purple to get lylo right.) I'd also feel better about using CDB's town read on them if Nexus was still posting. Basically, they haven't given me a reason to counteract Empire's read.

As far as how I'm feeling about the game? it damn near feels on autopilot. This game feels frustrating in a different way than Tales of. In that game I thought everyone was scum and was manipulating me, but here I feel like I could argue why everyone is town to some degree, which is kinda ironic because then I could truly do POE from the player list! I really really need to reread the game, but I really really don't want to reread the first day. I need to start over from day two regardless, but I kind of also don't want to do that because if Empire is right and Tim Howard is scum, then it would be best to use that time tomorrow to reread. Everything just feels kinda murky and it probably stems from the fact that everyone seems somewhat disengaged from this game and I'm not sure why everyone is? maybe it's because of the bad start? IDK.

I mostly agree with the UT read although some of UT's play around xReckx bothers me as I feel like he is somewhat placating xReckx whenever xReckx suspects him and a lot of his play around xReckx feels off. It could genuinely be a townie with a townread on xReckx but he seems a little too certain about that read.

As far as xReckx himself, this is the first game I'm playing with him barring a pretty old game where he replaced in as scum just as I got lynched and we never interacted. Reading through his games as an observer didn't give me any sort of handle on his meta so I'm mostly factoring in your read there. How likely do you think that he would change up his meta in a game where a lot of people are aware of it? If he played the apathetic townie shtick, it wouldn't work when a lot of players know about it so he would have to change it up.

As far as Nacho's reads, he followed up in Post 821 and Post 827 saying that {Cerulean, Zdenek, FA, Nero Cain, Tim, UT} are town out of the players that are alive. It is interesting to note that he had a townread on Venmar as well. His only scumreads in Post 827 seem to be Kaysuki and Kanye with Kanye being scum if Katsuki was town. The only players that he hadn't mentioned then would be Plum, NS, and xReckx. Regarding Nacho's townreads, I feel that he gives the benefit of the doubt to players he knows and might occasionally incorrectly townread them when they are scum but rarely if ever mislynches them when both they and Nacho are town so I tend his take his scumreads a lot more seriously than his townreads.

You said you wanted to do a wealth of interaction analysis with Tim Howard; do you have any comments on Venmar's interactions with other players? I went through a whole bunch of his games and info dumped to Penguin hoping to see some slam dunk tells like with GM in that PYP game but Venmar is actually pretty good at hiding interactions and I am not really sure what to make of them. How about Kanye then as far as interaction analysis is concerned? Was there anything that stood out? I guess I'm okay with a Tim Howard lynch as with Zdenek's vote, it'll be five so it seems like everyone's pretty set on it although I don't really have a read either way.

[Flipping Awesome]

Zdenek, who is your other scumread?

[Flipping Awesome]

I'd guess Nacho, Tammy, and Tierce for a start since they were in RW.

You replaced into this one.

[Flipping Awesome]

Okay, don't hammer yet. I want to say something before I hammer and I'm waiting for Cerulean to show up.

[Flipping Awesome]

Hey, so if you trust me as town, and IF Tim Howard flips scum, target me tonight with your night actions if you have any.

[Flipping Awesome]

No, it is good stuff, don't worry about it.

[Flipping Awesome]

Is Faraday known for using cults/recruiters/stuff that changes alignments btw?

[Flipping Awesome]

Lost Butterfly I mean of course.

[Flipping Awesome]

Ah, okay. I was getting rather paranoid about there being alignment changing roles since the game really, really isn't making any sense to me at this point. But okay, I'm hammering unless there's anything else.

[Flipping Awesome]

I mean, I'm not sure what the number of scum would be with eighteen players either. Cabd used four scum in seventeen for Tales of You and Empire used four scum in twenty in NY169 so I am assuming four makes the most amount of sense with the even number of players to account for Katsuki's vengeful kill.

[Flipping Awesome]

Okay, makes sense. This lynch still feels bad and something feels off. Who could be scum with Tim though? We know it isn't Zdenek or Nero Cain. I've re-read the game and I am 100% sure your D1 and D2 play is impossible to come from scum-you especially the part where you call me out and try to figure me out aggressively and I'd be bamboozled if you are on a team with Kanye.

That leaves {UT, Reck, Tim, Plum, NS}

I can't make heads or tails out of NS except I think he would kill you at some point if he was scum? NS/Tim would definitely have killed you. Tim and Plum? I don't get why they'd kill Shadoweh. To frame us? And the Chamber kill to frame both you and us? Plum did come out attacking me so it isn't impossible. What if it is Tim and UT or Tim and Reckoner? That would make some sort of sense. Reck busses Tim and coasts on your townread. Reck and UT? That's what makes the most sense. I doubt it is Reck and Plum since Plum is pushing on Reck although her lack of vote is troubling. Lack of a Cerulean NK would be explained by Reck wanting to keep you alive and Plum being okay with it. It is definitely not Plum and UT the way Plum went after UT during D2. The problem though with Plum is that she reminded me of Penguin in Tales. I walled about Penguin during Wicked and we actually discussed it in our hydra QT about how her scumplay is different from her townplay. I obviously couldn't say it in Tales because it was part of our hydra discussion in THIS game which was ongoing but I knew there that the switch in her was about what we had discussed here. So, Plum making a case on UT and pushing hard made me think she did it because I pointed out during D1 that Plum as town pushes harder on scumspects.

[Flipping Awesome]

Tim Howard not providing any reads worries me though. If they are town, I'd expect some sort of reaction to being mislynched, call some people on their wagon scum etc. But then I'd expect them to do it as scum too and do more than send a card and die quietly unless they think their buddy is in a great position to continue on and win the game.

[Flipping Awesome]

Can you provide a few thoughts on everyone in the game even if you don't have a concrete read?

[Flipping Awesome]

Zdenek, Nero Cain, Tim Howard, Plum: how would you feel about wagoning Reck today?

[Flipping Awesome]

Okay, why haven't you been asking for my thoughts? You were pretty aggressive in sorting me and working with me both D1 and D2 but in most of the later days D3 and beyond, almost all of our interactions have been initiated by me.

I wondered about the Kanye/TH interactions as well. Kanye was pretty "sure" Tim Howard was scum and I'm trying to figure out if it came from a sense of knowing Tim was scum or whether he was trying to push a mislynch on a townie.

because i wanted to lynch sangria and tim howard was not getting lynched. my votes there now, wheres yours? did you get over him?

no it wasnt? people were moving away from tim and no1 expressed any desire in moving towards his wagon. even venmar was a bigger wagon

hello, can the people who were voting timt howard but then decided they ddint awnt to vote him anymore once his claim came please explain the rationale that made that ability shift him from scum please kill him to town guess were not killing him on2 the next 1. you know who you are ty.

hey tammy if i get lynched im leaving it up 2 you to find out whos the scum that bailed the tim wagon after he claimed dont fuck this up like fire and ice

[Flipping Awesome]

I guess what I expected was for you to spend more time game solving and if you hadn't been running on auto-pilot, I'd be much more certain in my read on you. You have been posting elsewhere and I know I have been too but I expected a more involved late game from you. For instance, in the Wire, you spent quite a lot of time going over every possible scenario on who could be scum and walling about it. I also said I looked through a bunch of Venmar games and info-dumped to Penguin about them and I thought you'd be curious to see what I gathered from it especially since you are saying you don't really know who the final scum is. But, I still can't see how you can possibly be scum in this game whenever I read through your D1 and D2 play, so I am cool with giving you space and hammering Tim Howard if you really want and see what he flips.

[Flipping Awesome]

Yeah, you are right. I still don't see how you can possibly be scum after your D1 and D2 play.

[Flipping Awesome]

I mean, there were times when I've been on autopilot as well. I just wanted to 100% sure in you being town because no matter how much I think about it, I can't nail down a read on Tim Howard so I looked to you to make sure I wasn't off on any of my townreads, most crucially, the one on you.

VOTE: Tim Howard

[Flipping Awesome]

* just wanted to be 100% sure in you being town.

[Flipping Awesome]

Okay, so I thought about the game again after seeing Tim Howard's townflip and the two things I am sure of. One is that Nero Cain is still town. I'd be extremely surprised if he went after his scumbuddy the way he did with Venmar and the role only adds to that as I don't see two scum having the kind of role they do. Venmar's and Nero Cain's interactions about the role also don't come across as within scumbuddies.

The other is that Cerulean is town. Tammy catching Kanye off of a really good tell which was similar to Powerful Wizard also seems extremely unlikely to come from buddies. That and Kanye is a good scum player and I figured Cerulean wouldn't bus him for no reason at all. Even if they initially distanced, Tammy's follow-up of "does no one else see what I see with Kanye" comes across as super genuine and there are several unfakeable posts in D2 notably posts like ]. I considered the possibility that Cerulean could be scum but I can't see any way it makes sense so I'm pretty much going to eliminate them from my POE.

That was the easy part. So, two scum and two town in {Reck, UT, NS, Plum}. I'm going to go into a lot more detail on all four players probably later today.