Mini 1603 - Air Combat Mafia - Game Over
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- mykonian
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that and approaching it from the negative side. Could have called him scum in stead of "I don't think you are town" which is just the most weaksauce way to put it. Then obviously the hilarious "bruh" and what's left is a post that does nothing.
I don't keep count. I'm wrong more often than I'm right, I'll give you that, but it does improve for newer players. Older ones tend to post less conciously as scum and things that ping for me tend to be habits in stead of scumtells.
Regardless, it does ping for me and there are worse things to build a case from. That post does not sound sincere to me, which I try to explain. I could have left it as "this post is insincere", but that's boring. Also leaves little to no room for discussion.
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yes, that's the best thing about an unreasoned vote.
All we got from you is "wow" in that time. Oh, and now this post, obviously, where apparently it dawns only now on me that I'm using a language based tell to accuse you.
So. "wow, I've been really caught on that" or "wow, I rarely don't post such sentences bruh"?
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↑ MattP wrote:↑ Anatole Kuragin wrote:Well technically it is self-evident that anything someone does is a thing to do because it was an action performed.
Ok, but I think this is especially appropriate sass on my part given that you're asking me about the second post of a game
I'm decidedly losing you here. Both of you. No clue where you are going with this.
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You aren't the only one, anatole. Don't worry. I think this happens every game.
This is very quick though, I don't know if a debate like this around Farside ever exploded on page 3 or so.
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↑ MattP wrote:↑ mykonian wrote:↑ MattP wrote:↑ Anatole Kuragin wrote:Well technically it is self-evident that anything someone does is a thing to do because it was an action performed.
Ok, but I think this is especially appropriate sass on my part given that you're asking me about the second post of a game
I'm decidedly losing you here. Both of you. No clue where you are going with this.
What do you want from posting this and why exactly?
Any kind of response is a good response.
They are fancy sentences that say absolutely nothing. I do not understand why either of you is making them. They are no part of anything social, nor do they do anything to advance the game.
Would be very nice if you did have a clue where that was going.
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↑ MattP wrote:↑ mykonian wrote:Any kind of response is a good response.
They are fancy sentences that say absolutely nothing. I do not understand why either of you is making them. They are no part of anything social, nor do they do anything to advance the game.
Would be very nice if you did have a clue where that was going.
Are you actively scumhunting when you ask or are you exclusively just confused about what we were saying?
...
How is this a question. Apart from the posts surrounding my votes, does it even look like I'm actively scumhunting? After 3 reads I did get anatole's sentence, fine. Then realized I had no clue
why
he made it because it actually said nothing. Nor why you answer it in an equally roundabout way. You make the post. You obviously have a reason. I get the words, I don't get the reason why the submit button was hit.
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First up, she's really farside. Seen this before, I've been a couple of times in your position and I'm a little bit too stubborn as well.
I think farside and I had 3 of such games. (both mixed ones and once we were both town) I think in such arguments I have a vague idea what farsides scum meta is and this isn't yet there. She's quite aware of the way these games go and as scum she uses it, but that does feel different. If I had to call it now this is farside town.
EDIT: depends on your age, Ki-Gi.
I think farside and I had 3 of such games. (both mixed ones and once we were both town) I think in such arguments I have a vague idea what farsides scum meta is and this isn't yet there. She's quite aware of the way these games go and as scum she uses it, but that does feel different. If I had to call it now this is farside town.
EDIT: depends on your age, Ki-Gi.
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Yes. But seen the responses I suspect this isn't really a productive way of using my vote, which is a pity. I'm waiting for a next place to put it down, so I don't really have interesting reads at the moment. Game is a bit meh apart from the flubbernugget wagon, but that'll take time to give something to talk about.
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↑ Anatole Kuragin wrote:What do you find interesting about the flubbernugget wagon?
It was frivolous. All that's left is figuring out who was feeling it for what reason. Otherwise there have been few people stepping out.
For example this questioning line is really noncommittal. I'm not quite sure what it get you nor do I really get anything from you. It's bland, it's boring, you could be either allignment and look very important like this without achieving anything. Hence this is a lot less interesting than the wagon because something actually happened there. It's not along the lines you could think up beforehand.
how do you expect to catch scum if scum knows what's going to happen?
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↑ Anatole Kuragin wrote:a) Why are you guys so threatened by me asking questions?
bored is the word. We are going through the motions, I can't read you off it. You can't read me off it (or so I suspect). It's threadfilling.
↑ Anatole Kuragin wrote:b) What do you mean I look important? How so?
Can't find the right word. Looks like you are doing cool stuff while nothing is going to come off it.
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It's their play, let them have fun.
also, after my initial coffee, I've now tried to quote 3 posts and say something meaningful. And it's just hard.
In case I do feel so inclined to understand this mess, any chance either flubber or csareo could give me the place where they play together as well?
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↑ Belisarius wrote:↑ Anatole Kuragin wrote:Beli, what do you mean?
Ongoing game meta, so I can't talk about it right now.
Ican, however, have my vote on scum for VCA purposes even if I can't yet convince anyone else to lynch.
You're next, by the way.
lame lamer lamest :/
I liked you better previous game.
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wow, that's a bad sentence.
I don't think his choice of handling the situation has a lot to do with what allignment he is. He could play like that as either, he could believe that's the right course of posting as town or believe that he'd post that way as town while being scum. I don't think it's very allignment indicative.
The biggest problem I have with anatole is that it's a shit ton of posts that still can't tell me anything.
I don't think his choice of handling the situation has a lot to do with what allignment he is. He could play like that as either, he could believe that's the right course of posting as town or believe that he'd post that way as town while being scum. I don't think it's very allignment indicative.
The biggest problem I have with anatole is that it's a shit ton of posts that still can't tell me anything.
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↑ Anatole Kuragin wrote:Myko, You think a player pushing a policy lynch, then in his next few posts saying only scum policy lynch is less significant than your RVS vote on kigi?
Dude. Go troll someone else
Also, without the annoying bit: yes.
Contradictions don't make scum. They make easy to understand cases for the masses. And you simply aren't made to be a demagogue.
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↑ MattP wrote:There's no way you could play the helpless and confused cards and be scumhunting and expressing scum reads so timidly so early in the game and not be scum. None of your reads have any UMPH behind them and you're choosing the most bizarre things to focus on.
All of the louder players of the game have at the very least commented on a few of these traits of yours, and yet they're distracted. I'd like to point out that myko PROBABLY is displaying these traits because he:
1. is scum and is overwhelmed with the player base
2. is unable to overcome his admission of guilt and therefore can't push a town player hard enough
3. is biased in seeing town player's moves as townlike and therefore is reaching for unnatural things to call out so that at least it looks like he's doing something
I think if myko is scum you could pretty much figure out a bunch of people's alignments, but just from the get-go that Ki-Gi is town
P-edit: Csareo is a lazy vote this early in the game. It's not going to derive any information and he can be dealt with later.
Hell no matt. You are accusing a guy who likes to play scum, who enjoys being bold (hell, this can hardly be missed even if you never read a game of mine, it's all over the forum) with being timid and "fair" scum.
No way to get UMPH after getting laughed at the first effort. All it does is deepen the hole. Been there, done that, just means I'm looking for a new game in 2 weeks. Someone elses turn to make a halfdecent case on little hard information.
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Might very well be, my memory is worse when it comes to games. I've seen you play a couple of times but that might have been as a mod.
Regardless, you see me on the board. That case doesn't begin to fit the person.
Which was what I was going to talk about in that same post, actually. It's not hard to make a case on anatole right here, even a decent sounding one. Might rally a couple of votes if it wasn't me making it from this position. But that's not the point, it's to make one that's on scum.
Regardless, you see me on the board. That case doesn't begin to fit the person.
Which was what I was going to talk about in that same post, actually. It's not hard to make a case on anatole right here, even a decent sounding one. Might rally a couple of votes if it wasn't me making it from this position. But that's not the point, it's to make one that's on scum.
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If I were scum I'd love to get away with playing like that.
It looks active, but makes little waves. Little of what he says can come back to him and the little that did got strung out to the point where nobody but farside and he read it at which point townies zone out and assume it to be 50/50 and let it be for the time being. It's a defensively strong playstyle, because with each post seems "useful", while in the end there are few results to show. What this game would need is wagons but in no way could anatole make them happen playing like that, so at no point he has to step out and let himself be judged on his stances.
The playstyle would work perfectly for scum, and have limited use as town. If only it made him scum.
It looks active, but makes little waves. Little of what he says can come back to him and the little that did got strung out to the point where nobody but farside and he read it at which point townies zone out and assume it to be 50/50 and let it be for the time being. It's a defensively strong playstyle, because with each post seems "useful", while in the end there are few results to show. What this game would need is wagons but in no way could anatole make them happen playing like that, so at no point he has to step out and let himself be judged on his stances.
The playstyle would work perfectly for scum, and have limited use as town. If only it made him scum.
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you actually only have to look at the last page to see what I mean. It's a logical playstyle, and as such easy to follow and explain. The way he posts surrounding csareo is the most clear cut example of what I'm (I know, not vey clearly) trying to explain above.
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It's the posts where I ask about interaction between anatole and matt that he's talking about. Had little to do with reading scum or anything, just missing out on the conversation beyond the words. If it's not that, I have no clue what it could be.
PEDIT: "Myko has explicitly stated he feels lost in certain portions of the game, has reads but noone will listen so he's given up on pushing and feels like he will just join a different game in 2 weeks. I think this is pretty insane given we're 24 hours into this game"
... that's not even what I'm saying there. It's that it's useless to push a case from a position like this because all it does is getting me lynched. Which is the comment I'd be looking for a new game in two weeks.
How do you get "giving up" from the fact that I'm still talking reads?
On that note, how do you even read all that into me? In the span of a page, I have been timid, I have been insane, I have given up, I'm confused.
PEDIT: "Myko has explicitly stated he feels lost in certain portions of the game, has reads but noone will listen so he's given up on pushing and feels like he will just join a different game in 2 weeks. I think this is pretty insane given we're 24 hours into this game"
... that's not even what I'm saying there. It's that it's useless to push a case from a position like this because all it does is getting me lynched. Which is the comment I'd be looking for a new game in two weeks.
How do you get "giving up" from the fact that I'm still talking reads?
On that note, how do you even read all that into me? In the span of a page, I have been timid, I have been insane, I have given up, I'm confused.
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↑ MattP wrote:Anatole's entire game so far has consisted of getting an early read on me, moving onto Ki-Gi, and immediately becoming swept up in a counter-productive 8 page argument with farside. The situation with farside was led by farside and Anatole was just indignantly responding, and I don't think indignance fueling 8 pages of crap is scum-motivated considering I've done that myself as town many times (and have gotten similar shit for it as anatole is getting now). I think you're being short-sided because you're not acknowledging that anatole certainly got the short end of the stick so far this game with being tunneled by a clear town farside and has been responding in a clearly natural way of someone who thinks highly of himself and believes the shit he is getting is ridiculous. He's trying to change to a more productive string of conversation by pushing a Csareo wagon now. Nothing he's done has set off any alarms in my head.
You aren't listening. Explaining isn't the issue, I can explain what he's doing, he's showing everything. It's not the logic of his play, it's the intention of it. It's defensive. The issue isn't wjether his play makes "sense" it's whether he would enjoy playing defensively as town.
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↑ MattP wrote:I think it's bizarre that you would have a dialogue like this with and regarding someone you are becoming more and more convinced is a scumread. You've barely even tried to expose him as scum besides your "bruh" comment, it would be nice to have actually seen more of an effort from you before you became so completely hopeless about it all and respond like that to a push from Ki-Gi
Yes. There's no fucking comeback from the response of the thread to that on those posts. I think there's a post somewhere that has me complain that I couldn't make a case that wouldn't get laughed at having "bruh" in the back of your mind on the posts there. And I've hit that wall a couple too many times. I have time.
At the second quote, that's exactly it. It's his personality that could be the simple explanation for his playstyle. Which is why I wasn't making that case. It's easy to make and just as likely to be inaccurate not knowing who anatole is because the case hinges on exactly that.
I'm not really insulted, just annoyed that I've been characterised in a couple of ways now, none of which are obviously positive, and I don't think I'm any of them on this side of the screen.
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↑ xRECKONERx wrote:Exactly how much do you know about my posting style or meta, myko? The last game I remember playing with you was like 2+ years ago.
Not that much. This is a good moment to find out.
yes. You are getting there. Also a shit vote, should have done it a page ago
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↑ xRECKONERx wrote:
Then why do you think 8 posts for me is more egregious than >8 posts for the three I mentioned?
they aren't here to ask them about it.
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@reck, I saw you have the last post somewhere on the main screen. After that it's hoping you'd check this next.
Regardless, you were going to respond whatever time it took because you're such an active player!
Bullshit. You actually haven't got any reads.
So far you've got nothing on MattP, been upset about my case on you even put a shitty omgus down, called for a policy lynch and now pretend you are a hedgehog when farside votes you.
Coolest thing is that you don't even defend against her points but decide to go straight on the offensive on a pile of bullshit. Last two sentences are gems but then people scoff at language tells this game.
Regardless, you were going to respond whatever time it took because you're such an active player!
↑ Ki-Gi wrote:
Your "conversations" with AK is nothing but running in circles and never concluding anything decent, so really I care enough about the townto avoidgetting involved with them. You just confuse people with questions that couldn't possibly reveal alignment and then continue to bother them when they call you out for it. I would OMGUS you but I just think you're weak town. If your scum and just want me to think that, then good job.
Bullshit. You actually haven't got any reads.
So far you've got nothing on MattP, been upset about my case on you even put a shitty omgus down, called for a policy lynch and now pretend you are a hedgehog when farside votes you.
Coolest thing is that you don't even defend against her points but decide to go straight on the offensive on a pile of bullshit. Last two sentences are gems but then people scoff at language tells this game.
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I don't have any background in it. So uhm, don't expect any professional analysis here.
But these sentences are fun.
Keep in mind this is in a post that is a response to farsides vote and supporting arguments. So this is in context of a post that doesn't address said arguments but takes the offensive.
The first sentence here is cute in that it shows his problem. He didn't have a way to address farsides arguments and he's showing it here. He does two things, first the statement that "I would vote you for (those blatant lies)", but then "you are weak town". Which is straight up playing it at the man. But then, the second thing he does in one go is that he generously spares her because he's above "omgussing weak townies".
This sentence says in multiple ways "I can't believe how wrong you are", but manages to not address her points at any time, while attempting to maneuver himself to a superior moral position.
The second adds to the earlier clemency by voicing a threat: "back off or I will vote you for that". He's setting up an omgus vote because he doesn't think it's the proper reaction here to do it.
These sentences aren't intended to handle his problem, they are supposed to "handle" farside
It becomes a lot funnier having been around a little. Farside is kind of MS's mom. It makes it really stand out.
But these sentences are fun.
Keep in mind this is in a post that is a response to farsides vote and supporting arguments. So this is in context of a post that doesn't address said arguments but takes the offensive.
The first sentence here is cute in that it shows his problem. He didn't have a way to address farsides arguments and he's showing it here. He does two things, first the statement that "I would vote you for (those blatant lies)", but then "you are weak town". Which is straight up playing it at the man. But then, the second thing he does in one go is that he generously spares her because he's above "omgussing weak townies".
This sentence says in multiple ways "I can't believe how wrong you are", but manages to not address her points at any time, while attempting to maneuver himself to a superior moral position.
The second adds to the earlier clemency by voicing a threat: "back off or I will vote you for that". He's setting up an omgus vote because he doesn't think it's the proper reaction here to do it.
These sentences aren't intended to handle his problem, they are supposed to "handle" farside
It becomes a lot funnier having been around a little. Farside is kind of MS's mom. It makes it really stand out.
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↑ xRECKONERx wrote:Because you've yet to give a clear reason why you voted, and you keep dancing around it, giving indirect, circular answers.
it's only not clear to you.
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It is a little frustrating, yes. You signed up, play the game (apart from ssk obviously. I KNOW ITS A STRATEGY IN YOUR OPINION).
Also Reck is still reck, I guess. Reaction was about as expected.
you suck.
Also Reck is still reck, I guess. Reaction was about as expected.
↑ Anatole Kuragin wrote:If you're trying to vote someone for not scumhunting, why wouldn't you hold Belisarius, TSO, Myko, etc. to the same standard?
you suck.
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well, yes. This game is boring.
Even if people post, we still have mafiassk, tso's catchup is a series of oneliners and a single townread. You are barely here, beli isn't the fun player I saw in izzy's game, expressojet is completely not here. That's nearly half of the playerlist who are still "trying to get a feel for the game" or however you want to call it. And idk, it's hard to poke someone who isn't here, so you got to be the poked.
Not that it really helps gaining a read, I suspect both ways that would have been the easiest course. Maybe as scum you'd go a little more over the top so lets call it a faint townread. It was rather constrained, after all.
Even if people post, we still have mafiassk, tso's catchup is a series of oneliners and a single townread. You are barely here, beli isn't the fun player I saw in izzy's game, expressojet is completely not here. That's nearly half of the playerlist who are still "trying to get a feel for the game" or however you want to call it. And idk, it's hard to poke someone who isn't here, so you got to be the poked.
Not that it really helps gaining a read, I suspect both ways that would have been the easiest course. Maybe as scum you'd go a little more over the top so lets call it a faint townread. It was rather constrained, after all.
vote TSO
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how hard is it to get this? He's not lazy, he's scummy.
He's took a long time to play the game, and when he did all he posted was fluff and a townread on MattP. It's hard to express how significant the last bit is, but it's what makes him scum rather than town. I am not having a lazy read on TSO, I'm having a scumread and it's really not that hard to figure out the difference, esspecially seen the response afterwards which makes it so much clearer to the average reader.
Kindly more votes on TSO.
He's took a long time to play the game, and when he did all he posted was fluff and a townread on MattP. It's hard to express how significant the last bit is, but it's what makes him scum rather than town. I am not having a lazy read on TSO, I'm having a scumread and it's really not that hard to figure out the difference, esspecially seen the response afterwards which makes it so much clearer to the average reader.
Kindly more votes on TSO.
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↑ xRECKONERx wrote:↑ xRECKONERx wrote:Wait. What are you talking about, myko? Were you responding to me talking about SSK? If so, why are you asking for TSO votes?
I wasn't talking to you about ssk votes, I'm sure. I'm not quite sure about the rest, I would like tso votes because he's scum. Doens't have anything to do with other players. I think I might have fallen for the trap that I was arguing with scum there. Odd feeling of having a brick wall in front of you.
So yeah, short thing to get from there: I want TSO lynched. He's scum.
Rest of the page is a waste of time. Goodnight.
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My case on TSO, for people who didn't get it.
TSO's catchup. Again, significant, the only thing he does here is give a townread on matt. That should ring some alarms.
Only picked up now, this quote is selected to include SSK. Becomes significant later. Anyway, start of the defense, a couple of questions why he's being voted, then calling it shit.
Then here the incoming deflection, calling himself lazy while the issue is the townread when he wasn't doing shit. That's the thing that makes him stand out. Anyway, deflection onto SSK.
and the final bit that if you didn't want to lynch TSO before, this should convince you. The top sentence is nothing more than calling the case shit but having nothing to say for himself in response.
TSO's catchup. Again, significant, the only thing he does here is give a townread on matt. That should ring some alarms.
Only picked up now, this quote is selected to include SSK. Becomes significant later. Anyway, start of the defense, a couple of questions why he's being voted, then calling it shit.
Then here the incoming deflection, calling himself lazy while the issue is the townread when he wasn't doing shit. That's the thing that makes him stand out. Anyway, deflection onto SSK.
and the final bit that if you didn't want to lynch TSO before, this should convince you. The top sentence is nothing more than calling the case shit but having nothing to say for himself in response.
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KIGI.
TYVM.
↑ xRECKONERx wrote:It's sort of meta related and if I say much about it I feel like it'll ruin it.
Oh stop being like that and join the winning wagon.
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This didn't go as expected.
↑ Csareo wrote:↑ MafiaSSK wrote:↑ Csareo wrote:I read all of expresso's games. I think he is in a solid town meta.
Besides that, I am town reading farside.
Anatole fits my old town meta to the number, and his plays seem to be an eager scum hunter making a few seemingly slips.
Reckoner, I'm not sure, but he is spending to much time defending himself. Haven't seen anyone defend him, so that is a good sign.
How is Anatole being an eager scum hunter town?
He seems to be genuinely scum hunting. Time will tell if he is good at it or not, but hispost count rings town.
no
Morning I'll make more sense out of it. sleepy.
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Regarding previous post.
Baiting like that from anatole tends to get a response of sorts. It's out there enough for people to do something about it. There was
Next quote is more direct: if he's scum, post count is his scumtell, not his towntell. Posting lots and making few stances but a lot of explanations is a strong defensive tactic, which some players employ specifically as scum.
So, anatole, what do you study?
Regarding flubby, I don't think I get him. His play is erratic. Csareo, by chance, would you still have a link to the place where you know flubber from?
Baiting like that from anatole tends to get a response of sorts. It's out there enough for people to do something about it. There was
nothing
. The votes at the time they came made sense as well. I don't know why that got shot down as quickly as it was. Something to remember.Next quote is more direct: if he's scum, post count is his scumtell, not his towntell. Posting lots and making few stances but a lot of explanations is a strong defensive tactic, which some players employ specifically as scum.
So, anatole, what do you study?
Regarding flubby, I don't think I get him. His play is erratic. Csareo, by chance, would you still have a link to the place where you know flubber from?
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↑ Belisarius wrote:Nope! I'm pretty happy with the direction the game's going in right now.
Then where did the expression "how the deuce" come from?
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↑ Belisarius wrote:Pedit: I'm a maritimer, so I talk like a maritimer. Pointless questions like that do not equate to scumhunting.
A particular subspecies of Canadian. Fine. Not the point. It stands out in that sentence, why did you need that lead-in if it's not some kind of sink for nervousness?
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↑ Belisarius wrote:↑ Anatole Kuragin wrote:So you honestly think me and espresso are bussing?
A guy can dream, can't he?
↑ mykonian wrote:↑ Belisarius wrote:Pedit: I'm a maritimer, so I talk like a maritimer. Pointless questions like that do not equate to scumhunting.
A particular subspecies of Canadian. Fine. Not the point. It stands out in that sentence, why did you need that lead-in if it's not some kind of sink for nervousness?
I didn'tneedanything. Those are the words that popped into my brain, so those are the words I typed. Hell, sometimes I type in me own accent, what would that tell ye about me alignment? Lard t'und'rin' Jeez, byze, what if I does it in a Newfoundland accent? Scottish? I've done all of the above before in games.
it's not the accent, it's the word choice. I didn't know what it meant, I do have a vague clue what kind of words it were, and I associate them with a kind of stress that wasn't up till then visible in your posting. People don't curse because they choose to, it's because they like to. You use why the duece as a lead in, because you wanted to. Is the question really so farfetched that I want to know your state of mind at the time of posting that?
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↑ Belisarius wrote:"what the fuck" would be a more condign word choice.
That's how I took it, yes.
Which is why it's so confusing that it's found after a quote asking you about shakespeare.
Like, what? How does this pop into your head at such a sentence. You haven't been involved or annoyed enough all game to have a "what the fuck" type of sentence pop up in your head. But suddenly such intensity does arise at a completely innocent and offhand post by anatole?
It's almost as if he struck home, though I have no clue in what way.
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↑ Belisarius wrote:
Here's a theory: You don't know in what way because there is no way, the intensity exists only in your head and...
...
I just realised as I was typing this that you're fucking with me, deleted the whole post and then typed it back out again because it worked and you deserve to see it.
Oh goddamnit beli. We were almost going places Why do you have to wake up now?
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...
↑ Flubbernugget wrote:I'm still drawing blanks on how myko is trying to get his reads. And he's probably going to scum read me for saying I'm drawing blanks. Like that's the kind of logic I feel like he's trying to push. I don't get it. I almost got it in the beginning of the game but now idk.
Likewise. Talk to me.
That's been his standard response. Sits there, calls the case shit, doesn't do jack otherwise. How much more passive than post 600 can you get?
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↑ Anatole Kuragin wrote:People feign outrage all the time as scum.
I know anatole has been spewing sensible stuff (and I use that in all meanings it can take), but this is something to keep in mind.
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it's still shit shit shit. It's still a terrible terrible terrible way to go on csareo.
"I warned him that I needed a vote justification." is basically the worst bit of those 4 quotes, and I wish wish wish people wouldn't be stupid stupid stupid about logic.
"I warned him that I needed a vote justification." is basically the worst bit of those 4 quotes, and I wish wish wish people wouldn't be stupid stupid stupid about logic.
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Initial meta* read mostly. I don't get what is going on with reck, but his play is incoherent. I've seen him as town and as scum and kissing ass is hardly ever the point of either plays. Doesn't fit the person. He keeps appearing in thread randomly, ends up with some impressions then doesn't end up having those backed up properly and disappears again, to do it a little while later again. I have no clue why but at no point is he putting his weight behind anything, which I would expect from reck. But everything he says blows up in his face because he's simply not with his head in the game when he's posting (or whoever has a better reasoning here can introduce it, this is the part that I simply do not get) and as a consequence nothing works and he's being pushed into the defensive before he can get going, which he does on either allignment.
So my read into this is goes mistakes -> defensive -> disappearance -> recycle and I have never seen this before from Reck. The dots do not connect at the mistakes part, it doesn't make sense to me as scum or as town.
So the best thing I have is the feeling of his posts. I don't think he's scum but I sure as hell wished he would get his stuff together. He could be useful.
*disclaimer, this is attempting to apply what I know of recks person rather than actual "he did this last game in town so he's town again" meta.
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↑ xRECKONERx wrote:
I have no idea what you're doing here. What is shit, who committed the crime, what's a terrible way to go on csareo, are you saying you agree with the posts, and who is being stupid and how are they not using logic?
Going on csareo by using the contradiction.
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regarding cesario cases: (matts posts got in between).
which I wish wouldn't be done by 3 people because that more or less means I have to figure out who's the scum between them.
My money is on vezok.
@matt. Wrong word maybe. Does the rest of the post makes sense?
which I wish wouldn't be done by 3 people because that more or less means I have to figure out who's the scum between them.
My money is on vezok.
@matt. Wrong word maybe. Does the rest of the post makes sense?
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↑ Flubbernugget wrote:Its posting to say that if myko keeps going after shallow reads this late in the day he's scum.
Your face is shallow.
So I did get that post right. You are backing up your shit vote. Vote parking on
is as bad as it gets. Now somehow you put an ultimatum on when I become scum.
vote flubber
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Ok, I did like vezok better than ki gi, but if I wanted to convince myself into a vezok lynch, the post below is the one I'd take.
This is buddying with reck as hard as he could. The post on it's own didn't fit what was posted at that point. That wasn't farside raging, and the intention of the vote is given with the first sentence: don't go so hard on reck.
So yeah, I know it sucks to lynch someone who's only there for a couple of days and replaced in, but both ki gi and vezok are scummy.
Seriously didn't need this now. You guys suck
And somehow you'll be best buddies when reck talks with farside? This post doesn't make sense.
Can we please lynch TSO.
↑ vezokpiraka wrote:vote farside
Take a chill pill. Don't get stressed.
Also talking about fake. That farside rage was incredibly fake.
This is buddying with reck as hard as he could. The post on it's own didn't fit what was posted at that point. That wasn't farside raging, and the intention of the vote is given with the first sentence: don't go so hard on reck.
So yeah, I know it sucks to lynch someone who's only there for a couple of days and replaced in, but both ki gi and vezok are scummy.
Seriously didn't need this now. You guys suck
And somehow you'll be best buddies when reck talks with farside? This post doesn't make sense.
Can we please lynch TSO.
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Matt is being pointless. Shame.
This last set of posts is basically as invested as TSO gets, and it's awful still. Somehow he's trying to turn things around by complaining about a misrep. Ehm. With two days to go, this is where I want to be.
I'm not joining the esspresso wagon. There's better low hanging fruit.
This last set of posts is basically as invested as TSO gets, and it's awful still. Somehow he's trying to turn things around by complaining about a misrep. Ehm. With two days to go, this is where I want to be.
vote TSO
I'm not joining the esspresso wagon. There's better low hanging fruit.
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And matt is V/LA. Annoying.
I seriously dislike the end of yesterday.
This is matt stalling the deadline lynch of esspresso. Suddenly, with just a couple of hours to go, matt "does not care" anymore, and asks a question after the claim. I've thought about it during the night and I can't think of a question then that would confirm esspresso to be town. Busdrivers setupwise create problems, you could confirm him to be scum with role information, but hardly as town. And we were lynching espresso already. A no lynch day one would suck, matt was around, but esspecially given post 1013: he let it happen.
I guess he can talk about it when he comes back.
I seriously dislike the end of yesterday.
This is matt stalling the deadline lynch of esspresso. Suddenly, with just a couple of hours to go, matt "does not care" anymore, and asks a question after the claim. I've thought about it during the night and I can't think of a question then that would confirm esspresso to be town. Busdrivers setupwise create problems, you could confirm him to be scum with role information, but hardly as town. And we were lynching espresso already. A no lynch day one would suck, matt was around, but esspecially given post 1013: he let it happen.
I guess he can talk about it when he comes back.
vote matt
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↑ MattP wrote:I will just say, Myko, that I obviously would have hammered a known town bus driver before deadline if I were scum considering it was a "towny" thing to do and I wouldn't have gotten shit for it, and Idk why you think it's weird that I stalled on a lynch. I was hoping Oman would give an extension given the nature of my question to him, and I was upset that the lack of attention given by the mod to the game was to my detriment when it was something that shouldn't have any influence on the nature of the game. I didn't vote because I thought I was completely justified to have a chance to see an answer to my question before a lynch having asked it 5 hours before the deadline.
It is weird because I hammered it x hours after (what we thought to be) the deadline, with nobody doing a thing about it. By all means, this could have been a d1 without a lynch. That's really strange, it never happens, and it would really suck.
You would have been fine with that just because of your principles, you had an important question and you had the right to an answer before the lynch. That right is all you are hiding behind here.
And I can't think of a question which possible answer could convince you that esspresso was town.
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No info is one part. That's what makes a no lynch day 1 worse than one day 5.
The other is that lynches are towns opportunity at winning the game. You take a significant winrate hit if you don't use your lynches if nothing compensates (and MS setups tend to not compensate).
It's not as if anyone town knew that esspresso would end up flipping town. You take your shot, you don't leave it for tomorrow.
I am a follower. I was asking Oman if a follower can follow a bus driver or if the bus driver's action resolves prior to the follower and would render the bus driver un-followable (since bus driver generally resolves first).
And he does this because he needed to ask if he could track a busdriver, or if this happened before the track so he couldn't... Since when are roleblockers untrackable? I can't be the only one here that thinks there's more to it.
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because you could get the same lynch tomorrow. A no lynch is a victory as well.
But as far as I can see, you are already set on not believing it because you keep approaching it from that angle no matter what. There's something else that you don't talk about that makes you not want to vote matt, which is a little annoying.
Apart from anatole and you theres nobody who really wants to speak out about matt, which I guess is to be expected.
To get myself from one tunnel in the other, I do not like TSO's current burst of activity, the singlemindedness of it. I don't think vezok and tso could be on one scumteam. The way things are now, matt could explain his actions as insincere as he wants (which he does), and it simply isn't going to take off. Vezok isn't talking and he's the default as it stands. Can't really be sad about it, but it is worrying me a little. It's going really easily.
But as far as I can see, you are already set on not believing it because you keep approaching it from that angle no matter what. There's something else that you don't talk about that makes you not want to vote matt, which is a little annoying.
Apart from anatole and you theres nobody who really wants to speak out about matt, which I guess is to be expected.
To get myself from one tunnel in the other, I do not like TSO's current burst of activity, the singlemindedness of it. I don't think vezok and tso could be on one scumteam. The way things are now, matt could explain his actions as insincere as he wants (which he does), and it simply isn't going to take off. Vezok isn't talking and he's the default as it stands. Can't really be sad about it, but it is worrying me a little. It's going really easily.
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No, I'm talking about where you keep asking the same question but don't bother to respond to the given answers. I get it, you don't want to vote matt. Stop bothering me about it, because you are already set on not being convinced and I can do better things than talk to a brick wall.
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↑ Anatole Kuragin wrote:Myko, you don't see any merit to the Csar case?
I did fancy it, no.
↑ farside22 wrote:↑ mykonian wrote:No, I'm talking about where you keep asking the same question but don't bother to respond to the given answers. I get it, you don't want to vote matt. Stop bothering me about it, because you are already set on not being convinced and I can do better things than talk to a brick wall.
Like what?
hmm?
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nah, this is nothing like bad town anatole. Hasn't been anything like bad town in the previous day. He's just scum. Probably makes vezok town, the way he's pushing it.
We'll have a second look at matt when the town is ready for it, I guess.
vote tso
We'll have a second look at matt when the town is ready for it, I guess.
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↑ vezokpiraka wrote:↑ farside22 wrote:
These post are seriously just random comments tso makes in the game.
There is not one reason he explains why he thinks anything he said. There is no case. Nothing in his ISO that shows why he came to a single one of the conclusions he post above.
This people is called active lurking by scum.
And I was going to call this an easy to understand farside post. Until I got to the last sentence. I'm still trying to understand it.
I think it means that TSO has been called an active lurker by scum before, but I'm not sure.
This I forgot. I was supposed to make a post about it at the start of the day, but after the night I forgot about it: what the hell is going on here, vezok. Because although that sentence could use a comma or two and a semicolon (this, people, is called: active lurking by scum), but you manage to turn the meaning around in one go while farside had been on a crusade against tso at the end of that day, more or less. You couldn't have gotten it that wrong. It felt a lot like annoying Farside on purpose, and little else. So what was up here, vezok?
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↑ MattP wrote:I am voting Myko at this very moment because he is the ringleader that has slipped through the cracks past early to mid day one and it is hedonistic to point a finger at him. I don't have high hope of him being the lynch today, and I am fine catering to discussion of either a Vezok or SSK lynch.
Didn't think so matt. Making a shit case tying me to vezok and SSK isn't close enough to happily park your vote here.
vote matt
Also, I don't know about the rest of the people here, but I have heard nothing new from SSK.
The last sentence is horribly scummy, and I wish people would understand. It's a rhetoric question, but very out of place seen the rest of his posts. He's putting out a wrong statement, and shifts responsibility right from the start. He doesn't dare to put it out in a concrete shape (SSK claims to lurk, lurking is scummy, SSK is scum).
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Even you are listening.
And I couldn't care less about my "credibility". Just look how I play, lol.
It's the result that matters. It won't be on me if you don't get lynched.
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You are. But even when I called you on it, poked around, you kept responding scummily. You've had your chance.
On his own play alone, I'd be fine with a vezok lynch. But I seriously dislike your play around him. You killed that wagon for me
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This was unnecessary. Vezok was the default already, the way the game went. There was conversation, game was going places. You'd have lost very little if you had let this go on for a couple more days. Given vezok's play he'd still get lynched with little opposition.
I did not like the way this day ended.
I did not like the way this day ended.
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I guess that's interesting, but uhm, that's not going to do much like that on that player.
See, I wasn't wrong to like you. You can think.
So. We've have our stupid entry to this day, people posting continuation votes, votes with little reason, game going on as if nothing happened.
What the fuck happened with the vezok lynch. It was going to happen in due time, as that day was going. And then, suddenly votes. Just a lynch happened like that. People should talk about it. Because that wasn't natural, that happened too loosely.
↑ Csareo wrote:Actually
UNVOTE: mafiassk
VOTE: TSO
I'm really suspicious of his intentions this game.
He seemed to manafacture an SSK wagon on D2, while also finishing the Vezokrika lynch.
Since Mafiassk joined the vezo wagon early, it isn't likely Mafiassk was bussing (which is confirmed now), meaning that TSO's vote was incompatible with his scum read on Mafiassk.
Something I'm not buying into. I also am suspicious of him constantly calling me town.
I have this gut feeling that if I were scum, I would want to keep the VI around to mislynch later into the game.
See, I wasn't wrong to like you. You can think.
So. We've have our stupid entry to this day, people posting continuation votes, votes with little reason, game going on as if nothing happened.
What the fuck happened with the vezok lynch. It was going to happen in due time, as that day was going. And then, suddenly votes. Just a lynch happened like that. People should talk about it. Because that wasn't natural, that happened too loosely.
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yesterdays end:
Matt going : this is the lynch, then voting ssk after there has been a hammer isn't cool. 2 min after that he "realizes" reck hammered.
TSO putting at l-1 without any lead up (which kind of was expected there, the discussion was going elsewhere and he had been pushing ssk hard)
Reck hammering without... anything. Hammers, disappears again.
Time to talk guys. Now way that that happened with all of you being town, but it'd be hilarious if that happened with all of you being scum. Who of you can explain his fuckup the best.
Matt going : this is the lynch, then voting ssk after there has been a hammer isn't cool. 2 min after that he "realizes" reck hammered.
TSO putting at l-1 without any lead up (which kind of was expected there, the discussion was going elsewhere and he had been pushing ssk hard)
Reck hammering without... anything. Hammers, disappears again.
Time to talk guys. Now way that that happened with all of you being town, but it'd be hilarious if that happened with all of you being scum. Who of you can explain his fuckup the best.
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↑ xRECKONERx wrote:Farside.
no
No clue why you would softclaim this way at this point.
And I don't see your or matt's post where the hell those actions at the end of yesterday came from. Need a little more than silly oneliners proclaiming ssk scum now, TSO.
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That's the second fucking time the "there's no reason why scum would" while we this time we are looking at a possible last mislynch for a fakeclaim being on the line, by a player who's been one of the scummiest all game and who played a dubious role in last days lynch.
why is that line of argumentation even used in defense for players anyway. You aren't even thinking about what scum would gain.
why is that line of argumentation even used in defense for players anyway. You aren't even thinking about what scum would gain.
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because talking to you is like talking to a brick wall. You just repeat your point endlessly, even if I'm asking out that particular point and why you'd ever make it in the face of all evidence.
So asking csareo is more productive. He's on my line of thought here, and he's not feeling my annoyance for you, so he might have a better view if my annoyance is just that or if you are scum.
So I'd rather not talk to you, tyvm.
Pedit: Thanks.
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↑ xRECKONERx wrote:It'spretty fucking obviouswhat he's claiming based on his belief of Matt's claim, the lack of a kill, and his insistence on voting SSK.
Enlighten me. Because I have no clue why he wouldn't tell us himself.
↑ xRECKONERx wrote:Why do you think TSO is faking? What does he have to gain at this point by faking as scum in an attempt to get SSK lynched, who's either his buddy or a guaranteed mislynch?
you are starting to sound awefully like farside here.
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I do not understand why yesterday was made the mess that it became. I have no clue why this route of claiming was taken, I see no benefit anywhere.
Also, SSK lynch isn't as awesome as it could have been. It did stand out that people were very early and decisively looking for people to connect to SSK, but the people doing that were TSO and Matt... so the people who were looking to "bus" their buddy then take some townies with it are likely both town. Further, the whole town seems to have avoided SSK like the plague, only Farside at some point gave some support. There were some votes, but none with oomph, really. SSK himself doesn't give away much, obviously.
I think this day people are going to look at csareo yesterday, and while you should keep your eyes open, I understood where he was coming from. His points made perfect sense to me and I'm not sure if we want to look that way for SSK's buddy (like TSO suggested). I think if there's a positive result against a buddy like SSK, scum wouldn't hesitate to bus. Sort of positive for Flubber, actually, since he stayed off without a good reason.
So, reck, why do I keep ending up with you?
Also, SSK lynch isn't as awesome as it could have been. It did stand out that people were very early and decisively looking for people to connect to SSK, but the people doing that were TSO and Matt... so the people who were looking to "bus" their buddy then take some townies with it are likely both town. Further, the whole town seems to have avoided SSK like the plague, only Farside at some point gave some support. There were some votes, but none with oomph, really. SSK himself doesn't give away much, obviously.
I think this day people are going to look at csareo yesterday, and while you should keep your eyes open, I understood where he was coming from. His points made perfect sense to me and I'm not sure if we want to look that way for SSK's buddy (like TSO suggested). I think if there's a positive result against a buddy like SSK, scum wouldn't hesitate to bus. Sort of positive for Flubber, actually, since he stayed off without a good reason.
So, reck, why do I keep ending up with you?
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Like, I keep coming back to the vezok lynch. It was an odd one. Of the three quick votes out of nowhere, TSO has lynched SSK, Matt is dead, reck... is left. Although his explanation sounded townie, idk. Doesn't sit well with me that he hammered ssk here and I expected some easy bussing.
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How is it that you only care about the part where you had a huge argument about something I certainly can't remember anymore, and don't care about the parts where people got lynched.
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I'm not posting spanish, stop the brick wall impression and actually respond to me in stead of repeating your original post in different words.
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anyway, I guess you can be your infuriating self. If we want to see a bus in working, anatole yesterday is what it looks like. When the movement against TSO came up, he moved off SSK in a non-post, while he hopped on very easily beforehand, when TSO made his initial statement. With players like SSK, you are prepared to let them go, and I think the initial response was that. The unvote was opportunistic.
vote anatole
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↑ Anatole Kuragin wrote:Myko I find it weird that you're dropping such an ill-considered vote so early in the round on a day that could determine whether we lose or win this game.
Im shaking in my boots.
Best vote I can make. There's what wins me the game, if it does.
Also, shit response. I'm happy here. People should read his votes yesterday.
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↑ mykonian wrote:anyway, I guess you can be your infuriating self. If we want to see a bus in working, anatole yesterday is what it looks like. When the movement against TSO came up, he moved off SSK in a non-post, while he hopped on very easily beforehand, when TSO made his initial statement. With players like SSK, you are prepared to let them go, and I think the initial response was that. The unvote was opportunistic.
vote anatole
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↑ Anatole Kuragin wrote:
Unless you're referring to here in the midst of the claim at the end of the day where I unvoted him afterwards to be cautious since csareo was kinda making sense.
See, you get it.
Lynch please.
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so somehow we arranged for flubber to decide between two wagons. That can't be the idea. I'm not happy with the csareo wagon. I think TSO is just too eager to get back on him for opposing him yesterday. I thought that was fine, not scummy as such.
TSO, have you read anatole's response to your claim yesterday? That was much more wishy washy.
TSO, have you read anatole's response to your claim yesterday? That was much more wishy washy.
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↑ Flubbernugget wrote:All I remember was that I was scum reading Reck but I can't even remember why. Csareo is vi. I promise you he is vi.
he doesn't strike me as the vi of your pair. Why do you say this?
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I'm tired, training. I'm trying to read these posts and I can but I don't get anything from it. I'm happy with my vote, I'm not happy with the split.
See you tomorrow. I don't think I can make decent decisions and arguments tonight anymore. Just not entirely here. I think this day is stupid.
unvote
See you tomorrow. I don't think I can make decent decisions and arguments tonight anymore. Just not entirely here. I think this day is stupid.
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I think I have a way out of this. You make a case, don't care how long it is, I'll read it openly. If you do the same for mine afterward. You know, quotes, reasonings, the whole shit. Seems more productive than saying "lynch x" over again and seeing that flubber doesnt feel like taking responsibility (which somewhat feels like a cointoss anyway).
@reck, that's bullshit and you know it. Last thing I am and ever will be, is under the radar. That's just badly sheeping flubber's vote.
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You know more than me, please expand.
↑ Flubbernugget wrote:↑ SABBATHonSABBATH wrote:Farside your main case on AK is that he's scumreading people he's not voting for, right?
Dude. WTF.
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Not particulary. You could try to understand farsides case once more. It's not hard.
TSO softclaims a guilty of sorts on SSK, anatole's buddy. Anatole hops on, it's SSK after all, you let him go.
Then, csareo comes in and casts doubt on TSO's claim. It doesn't look good. Anatole hops off, "csareo is making sense".
Then, when town figures out they do want to follow TSO, anatole knows he needs to be back in his good looking early bussing spot: he's on again.
That unvote is opportunistic scum play. That's where you catch anatole, not in the hundreds of posts asking questions and setting things up. Like I complained earlier on, anatole has a defensive playstyle this game. It aims to explain every action they do, doesn't focus on outplaying scum, finding them. This was a point where there's an action he tries to explain, but does it wishy washy: he stepped out. His "csareo was kind of making good points", but him not joining him in voting TSO, for example, is a weak play that he's trying to avoid here when we pushed him on it, he's got only weak excuses. This is the point where he shows his intentions, this was the crack in his armor.
TSO softclaims a guilty of sorts on SSK, anatole's buddy. Anatole hops on, it's SSK after all, you let him go.
Then, csareo comes in and casts doubt on TSO's claim. It doesn't look good. Anatole hops off, "csareo is making sense".
Then, when town figures out they do want to follow TSO, anatole knows he needs to be back in his good looking early bussing spot: he's on again.
That unvote is opportunistic scum play. That's where you catch anatole, not in the hundreds of posts asking questions and setting things up. Like I complained earlier on, anatole has a defensive playstyle this game. It aims to explain every action they do, doesn't focus on outplaying scum, finding them. This was a point where there's an action he tries to explain, but does it wishy washy: he stepped out. His "csareo was kind of making good points", but him not joining him in voting TSO, for example, is a weak play that he's trying to avoid here when we pushed him on it, he's got only weak excuses. This is the point where he shows his intentions, this was the crack in his armor.
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↑ xRECKONERx wrote:What is your read on me, myko?
Uncomfortable. Playstyle wise you seem town. I don't like your lategame moves, I don't think they are correct. That starts with vezok and although your explanation sounds town, there's still the objective fact that the vote was there. I don't like the csareo vote, I don't like you sheeping flubbers vote on a shit reason. I think you could have bussed SSK though it was late and I would have had scum earlier on a ssk bus.
But then, your scumplay characterizes itself by over the top play and defensiveness, and some sort of overconfidence. This game has none of that. So lets stick with bad town. (though by all means improve and vote anatole like you should)
Also, it's your history, not mine But lets keep that for postgame, I'm avoiding that on purpose. This game has seen enough stupidity already.
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Thinking while reading the first half of the case, stuff that's interesting:
IDK about the policy lynch stuff. Townies could do that. I do agree that the reads list is not what it could have been there. The anatole series I hadn't noticed as such, but you are right there.
"There's a whole mound of associatives that Csareo has got with SSK, this is one of the first. He literally never, ever, ever follows this up with any pressure on SSK/posts to SSK/calling SSK scum/anything at all regarding SSK."
I'd have to look up, that would be damning imo.
And I mean, it's hard to keep anatole out of this with the vote unvote thing, though the situation is different. I do agree with your assessment that it's possibly a way to get out of the position he got himself in yesterday. "Oh, I still believe SSK is scum... but look at this guy now!". In that way, a hard line after that on you is explainable... but more difficult. Like, he shouldn't particulary mind SSK being lynched, it being one of his scumreads. The points he makes seem good, but in the light of the previous day it makes less sense that he's the one making them.
The last bit should be good.
IDK about the policy lynch stuff. Townies could do that. I do agree that the reads list is not what it could have been there. The anatole series I hadn't noticed as such, but you are right there.
"There's a whole mound of associatives that Csareo has got with SSK, this is one of the first. He literally never, ever, ever follows this up with any pressure on SSK/posts to SSK/calling SSK scum/anything at all regarding SSK."
I'd have to look up, that would be damning imo.
And I mean, it's hard to keep anatole out of this with the vote unvote thing, though the situation is different. I do agree with your assessment that it's possibly a way to get out of the position he got himself in yesterday. "Oh, I still believe SSK is scum... but look at this guy now!". In that way, a hard line after that on you is explainable... but more difficult. Like, he shouldn't particulary mind SSK being lynched, it being one of his scumreads. The points he makes seem good, but in the light of the previous day it makes less sense that he's the one making them.
The last bit should be good.
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but if I keep in mind the read I had on csareo before that, do you think he's the person to go for ballsy scumplay, or is he merely an impulsive townie? The mistakes he makes, but the initiative he took suggested the last to me, and that's the background from where I didn't want to lynch csareo, given that there was a calculating player with few big moves who did seem to have a connection with SSK in the game: anatole. I'll have to look up the "SSK and X" thing for csareo, that happens too often unpunished, imo.
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ctrl-f through csareo's post pre-ssk flip is more about him worrying that he's grouped up with SSK than him grouping ssk with other players and then picking the other players to put pressure on. It only happens with vezok and mattp, really. I mean, it counts, but it's not happening super often.
Meh. I guess it does stand out a little. Saying "either ssk or mattp is scum" then not continuing on that track is a valve to release some pressure about mentioning SSK. This way you have acknowledged that your buddy is scummy, but you aren't required to do more with it.
Meh. I guess it does stand out a little. Saying "either ssk or mattp is scum" then not continuing on that track is a valve to release some pressure about mentioning SSK. This way you have acknowledged that your buddy is scummy, but you aren't required to do more with it.
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pffft. I mean, I didn't like the way you claimed, it looked ugly, but I guess his angles (1596 and 1602) do get absurd there. The key is indeed how hard he goes when he hadn't put much attention at you beforehand. Obviously the vote, I knew that was going to be part of your case. That was one issue I already had. Otherwise, meh. Not that interesting, sorry
I mean, I see where you are coming from. I think you could be right. There are a couple of points in there (though not all links) that are decidedly more scum motivated than town motivated. What did you think about post 1911?
I mean, I see where you are coming from. I think you could be right. There are a couple of points in there (though not all links) that are decidedly more scum motivated than town motivated. What did you think about post 1911?
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"sure man, whatever"
it was indeed like someone reprimanding a guilty teenager.
Goddamnit TSO. You'd make me a lot happier if we could lynch anatole here. It makes so much more sense playstyle wise :/ I get your points and I could logically vote csa, but idk. I believe anatole to be scum.
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I don't think this is productive. Flubber is not commenting on the wagons because he doesn't feel like it and in a way that's fine. Don't think he'd have anything of value anyway and idk, him hammering now isn't actually helping forming a read on him, I think. He's something you can figure out tomorrow. I think I'm going with assuming I'm wrong about Anatole, or have to figure out his connection to csareo as well, should csareo flip scum. Also something for tomorrow. I don't think being stubborn and letting this go to deadline does anything, and I'm not disagreeing with TSO's arguments, although I think the case is longer than it needed to be. Key points do speak against csareo though, and I don't mind compromising on that. Should he flip scum, I think farside and flubber are the ones to look at next. If he's town, I suspect I'll be around to talk about it tomorrow.
vote csareo
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