White Flag Mafia [TM2015] (Game Over)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: ika

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You should join the ika wagon.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Looks like a good wagon.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why break tradition?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Is there a point to that question?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

43 - Regfan, couple of things;

Not discussing tokens. At all. Too much WIFOM around that and it's not worth the effort.

Is everything not weak this early in the game? Your attack on elk feels weak, what are you expecting at this stage of the game?

50 - Case in point re tokens. This post makes me think CD could be town and it's something he could quite easily say as scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: BBT

too terse!
what are you trying to hide??

Since when is this a scum tell?

qq bbt
qq

I don't know what this means.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hm... I can't tell which one is scummy; Coming right in the thread and immediately wanting to talk about tokens, or being reserved and not wanting to talk about tokens.

I feel like it's the latter. The people who don't want to talk about it might feel that way because we could reasonably figure it out if we delved into it took much.

And the WIFOM begins.

Fan-fucking-tastic.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

64 - Correct Psyche, I was more interested in trying to get you to join the ika wagon.

67 - I just know you're gonna elaborate on this, Zach.

68 - This post is pretty bad by elk. Who is suspicious on the ika wagon? Why?

If you don't like the wagon, why are not inquiring about the people on it?

VOTE: Elk

83 - Ika, if you think scum is voting you, you should probably do something about that.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Nah, you should do it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's a lot of words to say 'I have nothing to say right now'.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You want me to tell you how to scum hunt?

I don't know what slayers gambit is.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's a lot of words to say 'I have nothing to say right now'.

Nah, that would be you.

Really? Mr Contribution...

Please.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

43
50 - Case in point re tokens. This post makes me think CD could be town and it's something he could quite easily say as scum.

Nacho assigns Cheery Dog some townpoints for admitting he took a scum token.

La la la.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think Llama is town.
I think TTH is probably town.
Zach is town. I hope. I hope I can do what we did last time.

VOTE: Psyche

Why is Zach town?

Why are you voting Psyche?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

136 - Not a fan of this reads-list or the vote.

Town reading/scum reading people based on potential token use is an avenue I would expect scum to take. It's quite easy for scum to absolve themselves of any responsibility on mislynches and an easy way to provide town reads/solidly defend their buddies, again, without coming under much fire because 'token use'.

Just to clarify, let's say you're scum with Regfan. Now, should Regfan come under pressure and start looking like he is likely to be the lynch, you can outright defend him as hard as you want without looking scummy because 'tokens'. Even if he flipped scum; 'tokens'. I don't like this being an available defense for scum to use.

I will not be taking tokens into account. I don't care if someone used 5 tokens to be town, if you look scummy, I'm voting you. Tokens should not surpass scum-hunting.

Also, just in case people don't realize this, players can lie about how they used their tokens.

Your strongest reasoning for voting in this game right now is that he might have used one token to roll scum? That's pretty weak.

139 - Ank, why are you town reading me?

Why are Oversoul and Zach town?

Why is Psyche scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You 'know' he did.

How do you know this?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

also, the idea that anyone is letting tokens surpass scumhunting is a strawman

No, it isn't.

Llamarble explicitly stated Regfan was likely town because two tokens.

She said Zach was likely town because one token.

Cheery Dog was likely scum because one token.

Show me the scum-hunting.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That tells me nothing.

Show me scum-hunting that relates to those reads.

Go.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Show me scum hunting from that post that relates to those reads I just gave.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'd like reasoning for those reads, Cheery.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Simple question;

Show me the scum-hunting that relates to those reads.

Stop dodging.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No, it isn't.

136 is a reads list. The reads I selected and presented to you are based on the potential use of tokens (Regfan, Zach and CD)

You said I was strawmanning. I asked you to show me where the scum-hunting was that lead to those reads.

So, show me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You think quoting the whole post changes anything?

Jesus Christ.

I'm going to make this easier for you.

Regfan - He hasn't really done anything yet but 2 town tokens :doubles: his chance of being town.

You see this read? It states Regfan '

hasn't really done anything

' but

two town tokens

make him

more likely to be town

.

Now, show me the

scum hunting

,

not token speculation

,

scum hunting

that lends itself to this read on Regfan.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Regfan has some

townpoints

for

token-reasons

, but neither

Regfan nor CES has towned very hard yet

.

Sweet.

You're making my case for me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Maybe eventually, right now I don't consider them worth having reasoning.

I don't even think the reasoning on you is a thing anymore, i was earlier, but rechecking means it's just there as something I considered rather than useful.
It was the way in which you asked for more votes on ika, but that's rather null.

It seems pointless to state reads if you're not willing to provide reasoning for them...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why didn't you say that instead of providing them then?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It felt appeasy.

I look forward to you doing things.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

190 - Zach, you should explain that BBT vote now.

Can you clarify why you think Elk is scum?

Would love an explanation for your town reads on Psyche and Oversoul too.

191 - Oversoul, firstly, I would have liked Llamarble to have the first chance of responding to what I said. Second, I disliked Psyche's immediate WK, on top of this, he started playing dumb and I got frustrated. I've decided I'm going to ignore him for the time being.

I'm not sure whether you're referring to the point I made against Llamarble or the discussion with Psyche that ensued.

Also, it should be noted in this post that Oversoul says the only scumminess he can see from Elk is the point that Regfan made.

192 - Ugh. I hate this post.

What was the purpose of it?

199 - Oversoul, you're now voting Elk when you just previously stated that you don't see much scumminess from him? Nah.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Oversoul

Elk wagon is ugly.

PEdit - Why the unvote Psyche?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Fortunately for you, I have a tendency to practically confirm myself as town via dayplay and have already made substantial progress in that direction.

I can 100% assure you that you have not done this.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The great thing is that unexplained town reads are probably more frightening to scum than anything, especially if they're on point.

Regfan basically got my reasoning in 161. Basically coming in so hard with a theory stance in regards to being anti-token I feel allows you to work your way into the game without really taking any position beyond that particular theory stance. Theory over alignment reading tends to take the game in a bleh direction.

I get the impression we have very different play styles (If my initial read is wrong.)

At this point Elk's only real position in this game was to decry an early bandwagon as the game was coming out of the RVS stage. I see very little from him beyond that. 'This wagon is suspicious, I'm going to get to the bottom of this.' Followed by nothing. That's the kind of empty that scumbags come from.

My initial impression of the TTH/Antihero swap is TTH swapped out of a scum role. Antihero's swipe at me seems more aimed to try to discredit me than have any actual suspicion behind it, and that's only strengthening my feeling on the matter.

Unexplained town reads need explaining. I'm not sure how unexplained town-reads are the most frightening thing for scum either...especially if one of your unexplained town reads is actually on scum.

Agree regarding theory.

Speed of elk wagon is bad, no? Also, look how ugly it is. (You're part of the ugliness)

I don't think Anti would swap

into

a scum-role. In fact, I'm pretty damn sure of it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I would like you to explain your reads.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Try me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

242 - @Oversoul, I should have. I'm finding it quite frustrating playing with Psyche so far and I let that get the better of me.

You're right, reads can be based on shitty reasoning. But, I don't want the basis of those reads to be on tokens, I don't particularly want tokens to influence reads in any way, shape or form. Llamarble's reads-list pinged me because it was based around token speculation instead of actual scum-hunting.

Why were you interested in finding out who had a scum-read on me?

A wagon on someone you don't find particularly scummy...that smells opportunistic to me.

No, we've never played together.

245 - Ika, I've already stated this. ISO me.

An explanation of your town-read on Psyche would be great.

247 - The confidence in this post is unnerving, Llama.

And the self-meta. Oh, the self-meta. Ugh.

He thought Cheery admitting his scum token seemed town.

La la la.

257 - Ank, explain town read on Psyche and CD?

258 - More self-meta, Llama. I'd lynch you for this alone. 'Hey look, I can't be scum because I can hand select games that show you I've done this exact same thing as town so therefore I must be town.'

That's also pretty good meta if you're scum, right? You can change direction with your reads whenever you feel like it. Nah. That shit will get you lynched.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I want a better reason then "the voters" BBT

my town read on phyce comes from GIF and that so far i have yet to see him do his typical scum meta (and yes i know your stance on meta but you should know by now thats how i read a large portion of players)

also given he has been activly engading with you on what he says is scum hunting and you keep saying its not is showing effort wouldnt you agree? tbh from what i recall yoru argument for him being scum is that hes not scum hunting? he quoted many posts already so tell me how his quotes are not (and if its in iso just link me to post number im not going iso hunting)

Well, you're not getting one. I didn't like the wagon.

Effort is not indicative of alignment.

I don't think I have stated I think Psyche is scum? Even if I did, 'quoting posts' does not equal scum hunting. I'm starting to think he was trolling me and I just can't be assed engaging with people like that.

What I don't understand is how everyone is town reading him because I'm not seeing it at all.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't know. I'm struggling to read him, most of the time, he doesn't even make sense with what he posts.

I don't use meta. You know this.

I'll work him out. It'll just be through his interactions with other people instead of myself.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Top scum-reads right now are Oversoul, Zach and Llama.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Regfan is scum if Llama is scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Think you're wrong on at least two of these. Your whole scum-read and push on Llama ignores the fact that he a) Has stated reads that involve non-token discussion now and b) Him using token-usage and discussion as reads previously fits him perfectly and makes sense given that it does objectively influence alignment chances.

Work with me, what's your detailed reads on Aeronaut, Elk (Ignoring the wagon since "wow fast wagon = town" is bad reasoning especially given that it wasn't particularly fast and there were counter-wagons that were created with Elk jumping on one of them) and CD.

Yes, he has stated reads that involve non-token discussion. Yet, he is still pushing CD based on token usage, no?

I don't care if it 'fits him perfectly'. I won't be dragged into these stupid fucking meta circles that people like to create.

I don't have a read on Aeronaut, he isn't really doing anything.

Leaning town on Elk because wagon.

CD isn't really doing much alignment indicative either.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yes, he has stated reads that involve non-token discussion. Yet, he is still pushing CD based on token usage, no?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Just so you know, you still haven't shown me the scum-hunting.

You're unvote was bad. I had done nothing that should have changed your read.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Regfan - He hasn't really done anything yet

but 2 town tokens :doubles: his chance of being town

.

Regfan has some townpoints for token-reasons

, but neither Regfan nor CES has towned very hard yet

Where are Regfan and CES?

I'm not sure why you have those posts in the wrong chronological order. That's quite misleading.

The last post 'Where are Regfan and CES' is post 28. I don't believe either of them had posted. How is that scum hunting?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Llamarble

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I agree on the face of it that Regfan's play is pretty town.

That town-read of Llamarble right on cue creeps me out though.

Just because you spend tokens it doesn't mean you get the alignment you want.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's part of the reason, yes. It's not the sole reason. P much where he's at is that he has a bunch of town reads and therefore is hunting via PoE (He doesn't have a strong scum-read and when he does he'll make it apparent) and there's nothing that he finds town of CDs himself so he's content to vote there. I know you're not a fan of meta but you're going to have to learn to accept that Llama taking statistics indicators of alignment such as tokens into account and hunting via PoE is how he plays, there's several of us that have brought this up too so at least trust me for now that Llamas not where you should be spending your time pushing. Also I wanted your read on Elk "bar the wagon speed" which I explained is a shitty reason to town-read him especially given his Psyche vote.

It's the base of his read. He wouldn't have a scum-read on CD had it not been for the initial token discussion. Also, voting scum via PoE on D1 is disgusting.

It's nothing to do with meta. Set-up spec (token spec) is scummy.

I gave you my read on Elk; I'm not town-reading him as you seem to be implying. His wagon was too quick, it's got people I am scum-reading on it so I want no part of it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You're a big boy, I'm going to see if you can find the difference between your play and Llamarbles.

Go.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Top scum-reads right now are Oversoul, Zach and Llama.

So you're going to bug someone else for reasons after being asked for reads without reasons about giving reasons, but not give any yourself?

I don't believe it will be particularly difficult to find why I am scum-reading each of those players.

Little homework task for you to do.

Go.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Sure.

You know what to do.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT, I don't think Llama and my play is as different as you're suggesting it is, a lot of your points can be easily attributed to me if you think they're scum-tells and he has objectively stated reads that don't involve tokens and are based of play now so I think your scum-read on him should really be reassessed.

Oversoul, I'm cool waiting till this weekend (I have Sat/Sun off work so I'll likely be doing a mass-reread of the game then myself) and I'd like anything your team mates have said about this game, really anything at all will suffice.

PEdit: CES, did you use a token to determine your games then?

Simple question for you;

Is your scum read on Elk based on token usage?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I still think you're misunderstanding, say Llama has no one that he's "confident" that is scum (Which is the case here)

If he can't find someone he thinks is scum when we have 13 players alive then that's just another reason to lynch him.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Good try.

D for Effort and C for results.

Try again.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

^^ Was for 307.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Logic does not compute.

If he isn't a good scum-hunter as town, with the addition that I'm already scum-reading him, he would be a fantastic lynch.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You're making a hard statement against something that hasn't been suggested?

That's just fantastic.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Wrong.

That was an

additional

reason to lynch him on top of my scum read.

Nice misrep. Try harder.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why aren't we lynching this? ^^^

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's a bold statement.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I really like winning, so I don't ignore game mechanics. If you want to be a scumhunting purist and ignore what the setup / roles tell you, fine, but it will be hard for you to get a really high town winrate. Also about half my posts, including the reads list you found so offensive, include behavioral reads with explanations. Other posts include behavioral reads I did not bother to explain at the time. I have also provided behavioral discussion of both Regfan and Cheery. Claiming I am basing my play solely on tokens / am not scumhunting is so obviously wrong it's hard to understand how you got there.

I also like winning which is where my hatred for set-up spec stems from.

I specifically pointed out the reads that I had problems with - Regfan, Zach and CD.

Basing your play

solely

on tokens is not what I said. I said your scum-read was based on token usage, you have built upon this since (only slightly), but that doesn't alter the fact it's based on token usage.

Tell me why CD is scum without using token-talk.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT, you are a broken record. Regfan and I have ridiculously high town winrates, so maybe we're on to something. Anyhow, by now it's utterly obvious at least that I believe tokens are important, so voting me because of it is senseless. Also, I made a post last night where I summarized the important CD points.

Please, tell me more about how great you and Regfan are.

I'm not being funny, and I don't mean to insult anybody, but I fooled Regfan as scum in my

very first game

on site...so, yeah. Not buying what you're selling.

I don't give a shit how good you think you are and if you're trying to use that as some sort of weapon against me you're making a mistake.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Sure, if you knew 100% how the tokens were spent you could use them to determine alignment.

Sure, if spending tokens guaranteed you an alignment you could use them to determine alignment.

But you don't. And they don't. So you can't.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't know what else to say. This is just getting ridiculous.

I'm not sure how people are not seeing the scum motivation behind token-talk.

I'm done with it anyway. When people wanna start scum hunting, gimme a shout.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

IIRC, my elk scum-read was quite early. Wouldn't attach much weight to it.

Yeah, you see Oversoul and Zach on that wagon? Plus Aeronaut who is doing pretty much nothing? Wagon is ugly. His wagon also started picking up momentum quite quickly which is usually a sign the wagon is on town.

I agreed with it...I thought TTH was fairly obvious town. It's an even stronger read now that Anti has replaced into that slot.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Zach

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Says the guy who isn't on the CD wagon...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I know.

I know I'm not one of you great scum-hunting, legendary motherfuckers right?

What the fuck does BBT know? He isn't in our meta circle, let's ignore the shit out of him.

Whatever. People will listen eventually. They always do.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You just said I should be ignored because I don't know what is going on and you don't think I'm going to take offence to that?

If I didn't think you were scum, I wouldn't be voting you.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Spoiler: Zach is scum because...

67 - I just know you're gonna elaborate on this, Zach.

Really? Mr Contribution...

190 - Zach, you should explain that BBT vote now.

Can you clarify why you think Elk is scum?

Would love an explanation for your town reads on Psyche and Oversoul too.

Unexplained town reads need explaining. I'm not sure how unexplained town-reads are the most frightening thing for scum either...especially if one of your unexplained town reads is actually on scum.

I would like you to explain your reads.

The jist of it is your weak attack on me, your jump on the elk wagon and your refusal to explain pretty much anything you do.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Too many people not doing things in this game.

PEdit - Why am I town, elk?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

See that Zach? ^^^

Not difficult.

Give it a try.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

That's all it takes to be town for you?

Show me where I town-read elk.

I'll self-vote until the end of time if you show me where I town-read elk.

That's the second time you have tried to misrep me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

360 - Zach, it was simply an example of how to explain reads. I have asked you to do this multiple times and you refuse to do it.

I was showing you how easy it is to do.

Give it a try.

366 - Ika, do something.

367 - Anti is town. TTH was my strongest town-read and I really, really, really don't see Anti replacing

into

a scum slot. However, his lurking is bothering me so it would be great if he could do something.

368 - Aero, your strongest scum read 15 or so pages into a game is a 'sort of guttish feeling'. You're going to have to do better than that.

I'm town-reading Llamarble, Aero. You have a problem with this?

Also, if the fight between myself and Zach was 'forced' that would imply you think we're both scum, right? Because, if there is a townie between us then at least one person is fighting legitimately. It's interesting that you think there is only one scum.

373 - Ank, reads? Planning on contributing any time soon?

377 - CD, what do you like of what Aeronaut has posted?

378 - I'll ask Titus about Ika.

What do you like about CES' play? He's a pretty strong null for me.

Oversoul and Ank I can see. Maybe Aero as well. Again though, Anti is not scum.

Ugh, Aero, Zach and Oversoul are all voting elk and within pretty close distance of each other. I think my reads are way off atm, I can't see there being more than one scum in these 3 players.

VOTE: Oversoul

As for sketchy people on the CD wagon, Psyche has only just jumped off and CES is a big, fat null.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Regfan, why are you town-reading Zach and CES? Same for Ika.

Also, we have plenty of information now and should be looking to start a serious wagon.

Not on elk though...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Time for scum to pick a new wagon. Elk is town.

Regfan, you're a funny guy. That town-read on CES is all kinds of sticky; you're right, it doesn't make much sense.

What about ika's reads makes you think he is town? How does him calling for Ffery make him town?

Ank, I heavily dislike that you're pretty much relying on your team to play this game for you. Is there a particular reason for that?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

ika isn't in his usual scum lurkaderp mode so i may have an issue w/ that read. not sure haven't read his posts. ces' iso is snoozeworthy.

Ika is pretty lurky IMO, not sure how you have come to that conclusion.

Agree re; CES' ISO, not sure how people are town-reading him.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

397 - What questions ika? You have a cheek to ask for answers to questions when you're doing nothing but asking empty questions.

Ika is a good lynch.

404 - Llamarble, Anti isn't scum so you can take him out of your scum pile and put ika in it.

408 - What exactly doesn't Tammy like about my posting?

Why is Tammy hypothesizing about what I might want to do in a game like this? We have never played together, I'm interested to hear where these thoughts are coming from.

Most of this post is token-talk and I hate it.

409 - I like this vote from CD.

419 - This might be something minor but it's bugging me. I find it weird that Aero wants to address Regfan over the Zach vs BBT thing when it was me who originally brought the point up.

Why did you choose to respond to Regfan, Aero?

It's also extremely fluffy and he sets himself up quite well to revisit this idea later on, if he so chooses.

Do you think Zach and myself are scum or not? Definitive answer.

Honestly, what I do Day 1 is usually ask questions and try to inquire about different things, because until we see a flip, it's all speculative.

This is funny because you're not doing this.

423 - CES, why would scum CD vote ika? I'm not seeing what you're saying, what is the motivation behind doing so?

I'm mostly just not in a particular hurry to lynch anyone.

We have more than enough information in this game to be pushing for a serious lynch now. Quite frankly, this;

Vote Count 1.17
Aeronaut (2) - Zachrulez, Regfan
Cheery Dog (2) - Cogito Ergo Sum, Llamarble
Psyche (2) - Antihero, theelkspeaks
ika (1) - Cheery Dog
Llamarble (1) - Ankamius
Oversoul (1) - BlueBloodedToffee
theelkspeaks (1) - Aeronaut

Not Voting (3) - ika, Psyche, Oversoul

Is a shockingly bad VC for this point in the game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

437 - Lot of words, looks good on surface but not a whole lot of useful information in it when you read it closely. Apologies for the wall, tried to break it up as much as I could.

Couple of things;

Good point regarding Ank's reads-list. Look forward to the reply.

"

I don't base my reads solely on the token thing, but if someone in my mind could really either be scum or town, probably going to put them over the edge to be town if they spent tokens to be town

" How do you know they're not lying?

Anti made the town read on that slot stronger because I don't see Anti replacing

into

a scum slot. Glad to see you read thoroughly during your catch up.

Also, from reading your catch-up it feels your scum read on elk should be stronger than null-scum. Feels like you're setting yourself up to join his wagon should it take off again.

You were having '

serious doubts

' about Zach's alignment earlier in the game...I don't remember these doubts being expressed anywhere?

Ah, look at the set-up to join an Aero wagon after people have expressed disliking of that slot. That's just fantastic timing you have there. A 'convenient' time for a 'catch-up' if I've ever seen one.

Now, the only real read you give on me is during my discussion with Psyche regarding Llamarble's reads list in which you say "

This post reads really town to me on my second read through of the game. This is the type of frustration I think I would feel at this point talking to another player who doesn't see what I am seeing.

". When you reply to one of my posts, you seem to reply like you're town-reading me (know I'm town?)

So, how does this develop into a BBT scum-read? Not even null-scum, full on scum-read.

You say it's based on a 'theory'. You're going to have to do

much

better than this. I initially felt like the point of you bringing your teams reads into the game, especially using Tammy as someone who is scum-reading me, was a method of setting yourself up to attack me without it looking too blatant that it's OMGUS.

Hyper-aggressive on a single point is scummy? Firstly, don't act like that's all I have done because it isn't. Secondly, go read some of Thor's games when he is town. That's a pretty poor reason for scum-reading anyone, especially when you readily admit to having no idea how said person plays.

"

By being this aggressive and sticking to a theoretical reason to disagree with everyone

" This is a huge misrep and exposes your scum read as pretty weak.

I'm really happy with my vote and people should be voting Oversoul now.

Thanks.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't feel like a wall off.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'll reply at a later time.

I want to make sure people read the interaction and I think there are enough wall posts for now.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ok. Curious why you only focused on Aeronaut and yourself, because I tied you two together?

Curious why you're lying.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The post I quoted.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

441 - Response;

3) OK, but you brought forward a few points for elk!Scum, which seemed to suggest he should be stronger than null-scum. What you have said in this post also allows you to revisit your 'scum read' at a later date as you have left it wide open.

4) You 'may not have been

as vocal

', I don't think you were vocal at all. So, you wasn't happy with Zach's play (does this translate into a scum read or not?) but you didn't want to express this opinion. I don't understand why you would play like that.

5) My point is it's scummy.

6) You actually said that post "

reads really town to me

". So

really town

doesn't really translate into a scum read.

7/8) Me and my team had a good laugh about ABR scum-coaching me. It was good fun.

ABR also said he is hyper-aggressive as town and much less so as scum. But self-meta so whatever.

9) What you're essentially doing here is saying that I have been tunneling and this is another misrep. I have not been hyper aggressive over any one point. I think this is pretty evident from a quick glance of my ISO.

10) You accused me of talking about theory with

everyone

. This is most definitely

not

what I have been doing. I'm not denying I haven't spent time talking about the dreaded tokens, because I have, and from reading it appears to have been a waste of time. But I have certainly done much, much more than that.

To accuse me of not contributing is kind of funny given what you have done so far this game.

I'm not sure why people are suddenly town reading Oversoul because he made a wall of quotes. Did anyone actually read what he wrote? So much of it is filled with fluff.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

459 - Llamarble, what exactly is 'quality' from Oversoul's wall of quotes? Effort is not indicative of alignment. It looks great on the surface, which it seems is the depth you have read it, so let me know what you think when you have a closer look.

On this point, I hope people aren't just skimming the discussion between Oversoul and myself. I know a lot of people do this because ~egos~ but, you know, he's scum so I need votes on him.

466 - I kind of want to town read Ank for this post. Mainly, just because someone on his team was thinking along the same lines as me and it doesn't make me feel as crazy as when I first suggested it and got shot down. Whilst I am currently town reading both Llamarble and Regfan, it's always there, niggling at the back of my mind that my initial gut impression was right.

Ank,

"This is the biggest thing that gave me pause to whether this theory was in the right ballpark or not, since BBT had already basically proven that he wasn't going to allow shenanigans like this to adjust his reads. It would've been a foolhardy scum tactic."

Can you elaborate on this? I don't think I have any sort of pulling power in this game and the majority of the player list agreed with what Llamarble was saying. If they were scum it would not be foolhardy because it's quite clearly worked.

468 - Ika, why do you always think I am scared of you? Let me tell you, if your wagon picks up, I'll be on it quicker than you can say 'Vote BBT'. As it stands, I don't think it will happen and I'm not wasting the effort trying to get a lurker lynched, because it's damn near impossible on this site.

479 - Regfan, you don't see scum using 'I'm just acting scummy so people will vote me' as an excuse for their play...really? It seems a perfectly valid reason for scum to use to excuse their play.

Can you elaborate on your Ank town read as well?

481 - Ank, why are you hard town reading me?

484 - My team mates haven't really been following this game. Titus is kind of keeping up with it but all she is doing is continually screaming at me that Ika is town (which I'm obviously ignoring) and I asked if any of them had played with Psyche to help me get a read on him and not much came from that either.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

486 - The timing of this post (talking about how you might be wrong on Regfan) is pinging my scumdar pretty fucking hard. Making a note of it so it's in my ISO.

so BBT when will you start listenign to others?

When you show me that she has even the slightest chance of being right.

497 - I don't get this Regfan. I wouldn't say ika has drawn a whole lot of focus towards himself with how he has played so far, would you? I'd say he's pretty much coasted the whole day, providing nothing and doing nothing.

Further, you say he'd be more content to lurk in the background. That's exactly how I see his play so far; lurking in the background.

Not sure what game you're playing...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

BBT, what is your read on Aero?

I think he has a good chance of flipping scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

511 - I don't particularly care. She has screamed at me, what more can she do? I think you're scum. Sure, you can have my vote;

VOTE: Ika

527 - Agree with Anti, back end of Aero wagon (CES, Oversoul, ika) is pretty scummy.

535 - I have been trying to push us in another direction all Day but nobody is willing to listen.

544 - Llamarble, I can't join a wagon that both Oversoul and ika are happy with. I'm beginning to doubt an Aero scum flip actually.

547 - She said she has a secret tell (meta, whoopdefuckingdoo) on ika that she isn't willing to share. She also goes along the same lines as ika with 'I've known him for 3ish years, across numerous sites and this is his town game.'

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Llamarble, why is ika not in your lynch pool?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Because her read is based on meta.

Because you're not doing anything.

PEdit - The opinion of one player takes precedence over the majority actually in the game? Hmm, I don't like that.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Now ika is going to spam to create apathy/annoy people which will force through the Aero lynch.

I am 100% against this lynch now.

I am also having doubts on my Llamarble town-read.

ika/Oversoul/Llamarble looks pretty good.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

so me talking to you is not doing anything?
so me asking you quesitons is not doing anything?
so my interacting with you is not doing anyhting?
so me posting is not doing anything?
so me shouting i want hammer is not doing anything?

pedit: oh, neat, looks like scums want to myslynch me later!

No, it isn't.
Your questions are aimless/empty.
You only started interacting with me when I said I thought you could be scum.
Your posts are full of nothing/fluff/empty questions.
Of course you want to hammer. That's obvious.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The simple answer is you're not flipping town.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

When you do I say 'Ah well, he wasn't doing anything anyway.'

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You seem overly concerned with getting lynched...you only have two votes.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Nah, no contradiction.

This, right now, is your biggest contribution in the entire game. The rest is full of nothing.

Even this isn't great, you're simply being overly-defensive over someone scum-reading you.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

585 - Reg, your reads are so far off here it's not even funny. Anti is still town.

Not only this, since when did ika move into the 'never, ever lynch pool.' Like, I know you have explained this read but I don't see this beacon of town that you seem to.

Ika has only just started doing something (our recent conversation). Prior to this, he asked empty questions and didn't do much else. You keep acting like ika isn't lurking and it's becoming frustrating because he quite clearly is. He's essentially prod-dodged with empty questions/statements for the majority of the game.

No, our recent interaction came about because I believe ika smelled a potential lynch. Like, it's the only time he has been active and it just so happens that it's when people are online and pushing the Aero wagon to end the day...you don't find that suspicious at all?

I don't even think he has stated why he finds Aero scummy. He just knows that in this game he can hammer and people be like 'lol, it's ika, that's what he does.' NO. That's what scum does. I also disagree that mentioning team mates is a town tell.

Also, Psyche is town.

592 - Vote him (ika) then, Ank.

594 - Ank, you find Aero scummier than ika? You're also OK voting Aero knowing ika is going to hammer?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

601 - Sigh...

1) Yes Ika, I'm claiming scum. You got me. You're so good at this game.

2) I have explained why I think you're scum. I think you're being dense on purpose to try and throw me off; not going to work. Accusing me of tunneling is pretty funny and I'm not dignifying it any further with anything more than that.

3) Still no contradiction. You keep saying contradiction, I keep saying it's not. This could go on for a while. I'm not going into semantics with you.

4) I'm not sure why you're saying you have been goading/enticing people to vote you as a response to me saying you have pretty much been inactive all game except when a potential lynch was available. There is no link there.

5) First, you didn't respond to my point about why you think Aero is scum...you gonna do that?

Really, you can show me meta of people hammering? That's just fantastic. In this game, if somebody 'lol hammers' they'll be getting lynched.

Nah, I disagreed with it being alignment indicative. You made a gigantic leap to 'I disagree with everything everyone says. Try harder please.

605 - What games has she played with me?

I mean, she pretty much thinks I am scum because she disagrees with my stance on tokens/theory. I'm sorry, that doesn't make me scum. Neither does her perception of me being fake. She hasn't got anything more solid than this?

What does she think my case on Llamarble is?

Do you agree with Tammy, Oversoul?

606 - Regfan, the reads that were off were the ones I wrote about. They're pretty big reads though, lynching Anti is a pretty big mistake and not lynching ika is equally a big mistake.

I didn't say you hadn't explained your read on ika, I just said I don't see it. At all.

'ika hammering is what he does'...wow. He must fucking love that when he rolls scum. This is insanely frustrating.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't think she wants to share which games for the sake of alt anonymity.

She has made a couple of critiques on your posts, but they all boil down to the fact that she thinks the way you are approaching this game is not authentic townie.
She thinks your case on Llamarble is bad (too forced for you to legitimately believe your points are good points).
I agree with her overall that your aggression is just hitting a sour note with me. I don't like it. Have you ever heard of the Uncanny Valley? Animators make models of humans and almost accomplish making it look human, but something about the model makes it not human so it exists in this Uncanny Valley of looking human without accomplishing the belief that it could be human. That is where your posts exist, at least to me. You do have posts and positions that I think are pro-town motivated and for that reason I personally think it is a stylistic difference between our playstyles. Tammy thinks it is something more.

Haha, no. If she is going to accuse me of being scum and base it on meta then she needs to show me where she has got this information from otherwise it's impossible for me to defend myself against it. I'm also going to bet her 'meta read' on me isn't very deep and I look forward to tearing it apart.

This feels like Tammy is attacking me in place of you to avoid any chance of your attack being attributed to OMGUS. The timing of it is somewhat convenient.

What does she think my case on Llmarble is? (2nd time)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

There goes my town-read on Psyche.

What a shit wagon.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I read that pn a work break and forgot to respond.

I'll do it next time I'm at a desktop.

I have more shit to say and I'm still at work, so I can't say it yet.

I will consider any hammer before I get to this game a scumclaim. No exceptions.

Twice you've posted now to say you have stuff to say but not the time to say it.

PEdit - Three times.

If you have something to say, spit it out.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

20 mins is enough time to put something together if you have something to say.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Whatever you have to say you can bullet point and then expand on it if you have the time.

Posting to say you don't have time to post is pretty annoying.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It's not me who you need to be telling; I'm not touching the Aero wagon.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

If the Aero wagon's not done by the time I'm free again, you can still expect something later from me before the Day's end!

Still waiting for this 'something'...

know what the best thing is? its a great WIFOM generator.

No, it isn't. It's scummy.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You have done nothing in this entire game (bar our brief discussion which was nothing to write home about.)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

/kill me.

You've done nothing. I'm not going into semantics with you.

Try harder.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

You want me to say you done something that contained a whole lot of nothing?

Is that more accurate?

Sure, I can say that.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The timing.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

After the Aeronaut flip, I really have no clue about this game anymore. Tammy and I agree that CES rushing the game into night was weird and did not seem particularly town motivated, especially given Aero's town flip.

CES wasn't even the primary person rushing the lynch. Ika was. His timing for his 'activity' was scummy as fuck and yet nobody bats an eyelid because 'lol, it's ika.'

In fact, ika, Psyche and Ank were all pretty scummy towards the end of D1.

my team is rather useless at the moment
they thought it was safe to vote aero because the others voting him seemed legit

And you didn't end up voting Aero because...

so BBT you gonna answer the questions or tell me how your members are not contradicting you right now?

What questions ika?

How are my team members contradicting me? We simply disagree on reads, no contradictions. Given that I am the one who has invested the most time into this game I will be trusting my reads over my teams reads.

VOTE: ika

[BlueBloodedToffee]

i know i want to hammer him. would you vote him if i voted first?

You're really going to abuse this, huh?

I think I'm going to join the school of hammering anyone that reaches L-1.

I thought it was only Boon that did this.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Not even close.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

There is no contradiction.

You keep pushing for this semantics bullshit. It's not happening, Ika.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ika, you've done nothing this game.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Nothing.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Zilch.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Nada.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No, I showed how you were doing nothing whilst trying to make it look like something.

I couldn't be any clearer.

I'm bored now and you should eat rope.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why is it definitely not TvT?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

714 - CES, what exactly is 'weird' about my push on ika? Do you not agree with what I'm saying?

722 - Regfan, I have been saying ika is trying to take the semantics route for quite some time. Yet, nobody seems to want to listen.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Anti, vote ika?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: CES i already got hammer and hes scum so lets go

BBT still needs to answer justify himself or admit he contridicted

You're willing to vote CES but not me because you wanted hammer?

Please. This shows how weak your 'scum-read' on me was.

It's funny that you're replacing out as well. Can't take the heat?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Also, I'm not lynching Zach, Reg, Oversoul (Tammy) or Anti toDay.

If Zach and Anti could stop wasting time with each other, that would be great.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Is that a bus vote ika?

Can you explain why you're voting CES please?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No contradiction.

Funny that you bring this point up right after you move onto somebody other than me. Why would I move when I've found scum?

BBT still continues to push obvscum.

Then vote me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I see no contradiction to justify.

BBT has caught scum.

BBT wants to know who you listened to and what they said.

BBT trusts his own reads above anyone elses.

BBT doesn't understand why sometimes you talk to him like you're town reading him and sometimes you talk to him like you're scum reading him.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

764 - Ika, I did. You were doing 'something' and that something was comprised of a whole lot of nothing. The fact this is your main focus shows how weak your read is. This is amplified by the fact you wouldn't even vote me.

I looked at your ISO. Spell it out for me.


784 - Anti, I'm not even entertaining your scum read of me.

You don't think ika has lurked this game? I must have a different definition of lurking to everybody else.

None of ika's team are 'scum heavy hitters?' WTF is that shit, it's not like ika (or his team) would need to be a scum mastermind to play this game in the manner he has.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Your activity has picked up recently.

You have most definitely been lurking for the majority of this game.

Also, when you post, it's full of nothing. Short bursts of posts that contain nothing.

Quantity means jack shit.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What's your read on me Ika?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

The Ika-BBT interaction are really starting to piss me off, fairly sure you're both town here, you're both not helping anyone by taking snide little comments towards the other person and you're making the thread a) More frustrating to read and b) More inflated making it harder for players/teams to keep up with. Quit it out, please or if you're really convinced the other is scum (You'd very likely be wrong) then make a big case post on it rather than having one line back and forths.

I'm beginning to see that nobody is going to listen to me about ika. I'm also sick of Titus screaming at me in PT now so whatever.

UNVOTE:

[BlueBloodedToffee]

CES, can you walk me through your Aero scum read late D1?

I don't see much in your ISO. What I do see is you pushing CD and Ank pretty much exclusively and then jumping on the Aero wagon to 'end the Day.'

Also, I'm pretty happy to lynch Psyche if anyone is interested in that. Done the exact same as ika the whole game so far; nothing.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Top 3 scum reads Psyche?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

But I was suspicious of Aero well before I became suspicious of Ank. I wanted to keep Day 1 going, keeping Regfan and' marble alive, until I felt there was a clear path to victory and the Anksuspicion made me feel that there was.

Anti, I'll respond to your post when I get home from the meet on Friday and I'm no longer limited to this ipad.

I don't think you were suspicious of Aero before Ank.

In 145, you mention that you think CD's buddies are in Ank/elk/ika. I don't see any mention of Aero before this post.

Your first mention of Aero is in 217 and that's regarding Regfan's case on Aero in which you reply with "

I don't think it's that convincing at this stage

". I'm not sure that comment is strong enough to state this is where your scum read on Aero began either as you seem to agree with Regfan whilst dismissing it at the same time.

428 seems to be where your scum read on Aero started. After this, you start pushing CD and Ank...and then vote Aero. It doesn't make sense and the vote looks pretty opportunistic.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: Psyche

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think I'm fed up of you doing nothing.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Are we speaking in caps?

Is that supposed to mean something?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It justifies your jump onto the Aero wagon if you scum read him for longer than what you actually did.

As I said, you spent the majority of D1 focusing on Ank/CD. Then all of a sudden some Aero suspicion came out and you hopped on the wagon 4 or so pages later with not much more coming from you inbetween that.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Because there are people not doing anything that need to do things.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

It will if other people join me.

The thought of both ika and Psyche making D3 (with what they have 'contributed' so far) doesn't scare you?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: CES

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What are your thoughts on CES Zach?

Agree with you re: Psyche and would happily vote him.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I have.

You're not reading.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

shut up BBT enough with your lurker shit and destactions from the main objective, scum is scum right?

if you agree CES is scum as well vote him we can deal with phyce later

If you end up flipping scum in this game, I fucking promise you I will push for your lynch every single game we play.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

does that include when we are both scum and we both lurked it to victory?

When?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hahahahahahahaha.

Yeah, I lurked in that game.

Only 4th highest poster. Clearly lurked.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

We'll talk about that post-game because you're pissing me off again.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

One quick comment - you're second highest poster in this game because of me. Solely because of me.

Secondly, it's embarrassing you have that many posts with no content.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Just because you make a whole lot of posts in a short amount of time that doesn't mean you're not lurking.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK. You're right, I actually didn't know how many posts you had in this game.

Usually, lurkers don't have a lot of posts. However, the reason you have so many posts in this game is because of our interactions with each other.

Anyway, this is a discussion for post-game. I'm actually quite insulted that you accused me of lurking in that game because, IMO, I carried our team to that win.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't need to make up anything to justify my jump onto the Aerowagon because there was a genuinely solid case on him.

A case which you never really engaged with.

Context is key. In Day 1 I spend the majority of my time trying to work together with Regfan and 'marble to find three good suspects. That context alone should make it obvious that I thought Aeronaut was a genuine suspect long before I voted him. It also applies to the silly point Antihero made about me asking Regfan why he had a town read on tth.

No.

Just because you were trying to work with other people that doesn't absolve your responsibility of joining the Aero wagon. It also doesn't mean you can justify it by saying 'Regfan and Llamarble thought Aero was scum and they had a good case so I went along with it'.

I showed you in your ISO that it was not obvious that you suspected Aero.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm consulting my team on CES and the CES wagon. I'm really unsure on him and I'm hoping they can push me the right way.

How did this go, Zach?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Prodge.

Votes on CES, please.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mod: I'm going to be V/LA until 23/4. Emphasis on the LA as it's just so I can finish an assignment.

Will try my best to keep up/post if I can.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VOTE: BBT

What are you doing now?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

972 - Because I had nothing to say in this game? It is/was stagnating pretty badly.

975 - I don't think ika is the easiest person to lynch in this game. I tried for quite some time and it never even got close.

I do agree, however, that it seems whoever scum reads CD earns a scum read back.

977 - Hmm, nothing else to say Elk? This is a bit thin given how little you have posted recently.

987 - Did you get enough AtE in this post ika?

You're seriously going to sit here and complain that the game is 'boring and pathetic' because there are no power roles when you knew full well what set-up you signed up for? You have a team of four players and you decided to choose the game you would be weakest at? I don't buy anything in this post for one second.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Yeah, that vote isn't great by any means.

CD, can you just go over why you're voting CES for me? I'm not sure if I'm misinterpreting your vote but it sounds like you're voting CES because you think he is a buddy of Regfan?

I want to wait for Anen to finish catching up before this Day ends.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Regfan is doing what most scum do - trying to get read as town.

For example, his recent unvote of me about me being more genuine, and his teammates not thinking that's the case, that's an attempt to get on my good side after calling my post from teammates as in-genuine. His teammates reads giving the opposite opinion is making the read of me straddle the fence, and he could come back if other people were joining my wagon.

This is actually a really good point and something I haven't really paid a lot of attention to (mostly due to thinking Reg was obvtown for most of the game)

If you look at a lot of Regfan's posts, his team differ with him on a lot of opinions/reads. This allows him to reverse his reads quite quickly if he wants to because 'he's following his team.' What do you make of this CES?

Hmm. Regfan and CES make so much sense as well.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

To me, it makes much more sense to push your first scum read then, no?

As a scum flip from Regfan makes CES more likely to be scum, in your opinion.

I understand voting CES because it's the bigger wagon but it's not like you're short on time.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Zach, did that CES discussion happen with your team?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I get that.

You said you wanted to have a discussion with your team over the weekend about CES.

I'm inquiring as to whether that happened, and if it did, what was said?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, how far along is she?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hmm, we only have four days left...

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Bbt - what made you drop your scum read on my slot?

Oversoul's posting before he left.

There is no way scum goes through all that effort before replacing out.

738 in particular.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why CES?

Why not anybody else?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Oh.

You should probably start with the person you think is most likely to be scum given we are short on time.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Finally, something to get my teeth into;

@Regfan - I had nothing to say in this game. I stated why I think CES is scum, he tried to explain it, I don't buy the explanation and it ends there. I mean, I could continue posting 'CES is scum, let's lynch him' if it makes you feel better, but I'm not particularly interested in doing that. What does 'you follow my explanation' mean?

It's convenient your town read on me dies when I start doubting my own town read on you. I mean, really? Considering how strong your town read on me was, it certainly didn't take much to destroy it.

Also, in regards to the team talk, I didn't openly state 'Oh hey, I think Ika is scum but Titus thinks he is town.' I didn't offer that opinion freely, I was asked about it. That's the difference. I haven't spent the game saying 'I think x, but my team thinks y.'

Your reads are often countered by your teams reads and it allows you to look like you're committing to a read and taking a solid stance, when actually, you can backtrack on it pretty easily citing 'team thinks I should do this so I'm going with majority'.

You didn't think that my town read on you had taken a hit when CD brought up his point? Further to this, I have always had a niggling in the back of my mind about your early town-read on CES that you couldn't substantiate and even questioned yourself. This read has never been evaluated though, CES has just 'always been town.' You don't see how this could be interpreted as you both being scum?

I also haven't openly stated (till now) that I am against the push on CD. You're right though, I don't particularly have an opinion on CD, I'm finding him difficult to read. However, given CES is pushing the CD wagon, I liked CD's argument against you and now you're also voting for CD, I'm not feeling a CD lynch at all.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I misinterpreted then because it seemed like you liked ika's push on me (which I assumed meant you agreed with it) and then you agreed with my explanation. I can see your thought process now though because at first I couldn't see how you could agree with both sides.

I can agree with a). Not much for me to say that I haven't just said.

b) again is completely different. People asked for my teams opinions, I never just openly presented them. The way in which you do it opens up opportunities for yourself to switch reads/jumps wagons. Mine doesn't. I'm not sure how you can't see the difference here.

I also flat out state I'm not listening to Titus. Where as you leave that element of doubt where your team MIGHT effect your read.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I fail to see the point (if you're town) in providing your teams opinions if you're not going to listen to them.

If someone wants your teams opinions, let them ask.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I still like my early read, but with everyone telling me I'm wrong I just kinda put it on the back burner and am trying to be objective about that.

Why do you care so much if other people doubt your read?

I want to know why you were scum reading me.

I'm trying to decide what I think about his change of read in my slot. I thought that Oversoul looked pretty town yesterday before we switched anyway, but eh confbias, and it's not like Oversoul replaced out and doesn't have a vested interest in my slot anymore so the effort on replacing out reason isn't the strongest reason to change a read on my slot. I can see it though I guess, but I was a bit concerned that it was becasue it was me replacing in. Bbt has never played with me though so I don't know that he would know what a pain in the ass I am to deal with ^_^ though I'm sure some of his team does, and looking back at context both you and zach had already pointed out that me replacing in made this a town slot, so.

I feel like I should make it clear that reputation means nothing to me.

You can't be that bad; I've dealt with Wake88.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I don't *care so much* and I'm not sure I actually implied so much so I'm not sure your interpretation.

Mafia is a team game however, and I do take other people's reads into account with mine. As far as I can remember, I am the absolute only person in this game who thinks you're scum. When every single other person is saying I'm wrong, I'm going to take a step back and consider their thoughts.

You care enough to not pursue the read. You can consider other people's thoughts, but if you don't believe them, then you should be pursuing your own read.

But, can you tell me what your cheery dog read is and why? That'd be swell.

I'm gonna say CD is town. Because CES is pushing him. And because I'm now unsure on Reg and he is also pushing him.

His recent interactions with you are complete bullshit by the way. I don't think he actually believes any of the crap he's spewing.

Well, you're wrong.

I 100% believe what I'm saying.

You don't see that I'm evaluating Reg's teams reads? I'm gonna go ahead and assume for arguments sake that you only skimmed what I said about Reg.

So, go read what I actually said.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Here you are backing off ika because no one is listening. Why would you do that?

Beyond that, you've been playing mafia long enough that I shouldn't have to explain fundamental concepts to you. I will, but I feel like this is empty questioning. I'm clearly not town reading you. I'm clearly not done with my read on you; if you missed it you are in the leftovers pile of my reads. You clearly are not an option for today. Stepping back and considering the option I could be wrong and evaluating that is the smart thing to do. I doubt very seriously either of us are dying tonight, so this can wait.

Also, intersting here is that you use titus, your teammate, as a backup reason for removing your vote. Are we to conclude that you are using your teammates as a means to slide on and off of people?

What do you think of cheery dog using gamma as the force of his scum read on Regfan?

What about cheery dog aside from unflipped players pushing him reads town to you and why can't one or both be bussing?

OK firstly, there are very clear differences here and I'm not sure how you're not able to see them.

I presented my case on ika. I pushed ika. I pushed ika fucking hard and nobody listened. Have you presented your case on me? No. Have you even so much as attempted to push me? No. That is a very clear difference. I tried. You have not.

Secondly, Titus was an afterthought. You can clearly see I first cite the reason of nobody listening to me

followed by

getting fed up of Titus screaming at me. Secondary thought.

Can you point to even a single other time where I have mentioned my teams reads? I don't think you can. So for you to even try and use this to the extent that I have used it against Reg is downright ridiculous.

They could be bussing, but I doubt it. Plus, I'm gonna stick with the simple reasoning that CD's wagon is being formed as a CW to CES. That much is pretty clear.

I have already stated that I'm having trouble reading CD. Like, a lot of his posts don't point me in the direction of either alignment. Therefore, at the moment, I'm using my reads on other players to help gauge my read on CD.

I get that and it was one of the things that was floating around in my mind yesterday/today, but what is bugging me is how he came to that concern. It came from a conversation with cheery dog when cheery moved his vote from you to ces.

Can you elaborate on this for me?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, we're doing this now, right?

Please tell me we're doing this now.

VOTE: CES

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Can someone come talk to me please?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why is Anen scum?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Ika, state why I'm scum.

Zach, don't be stupid. Once again, I tried my best to lynch who I thought was scum and, once again, nobody listened.

Just so I can gloat post game I'm calling the scum team now.

Ika/CES/Regfan.

CD was clearly a counter-wagon to stop CES from being lynched.

But whatever. I'll sit here while you guys mislynch town again and then maybe, once we're in LyLo, somebody will listen to me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

ces: why do you think tammy died of regfan like you predicted

Hey Ika, can I guess why you killed Tammy?

Can I also guess why Regfan is still alive?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I want to see him posting in real time.

I don't take much notice of catch-ups because I think they're very easy to make look 'pro-town.'

Could he be scum? Sure. Is he more likely to be scum over CES/Ika? No.

I think Psyche made a total of like one post where I thought he could be town and then that read got destroyed pretty quickly after. So, Anen has a clear slate and I want to see what he does with it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I'm not entirely opposed to that lynch actually. BBT has really become a non presence in this game.

I mean, this just exemplifies perfectly what I am saying. I pushed for the CES lynch and yet I am a 'non presence'. I suspect this is more to do with our disagreement on reads and therefore you not paying much attention to what I am saying more than anything else because to say I'm a non presence is ridiculous.

All I can do is present my reasoning for why I think somebody is scum and vote them. If people are not willing to listen, there isn't much more that I can do.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Well, I mean, why would I reevaluate my scum reads when I have no reason to do so?

I have changed reads quite a lot this game; I'm not sure that's a fair comment to say.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I think Reg could be scum yeah, but it's primarily based on association with CES which is why I have no interest in pursuing Reg right now.

It's also interesting that he has pretty much hard town read ika all game. Hard town reading both people I think are scum; I wonder what this could mean.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Because nothing I have said as to why CES is scum has been countered?

I admit my scum read on Reg is weak, and I hate association based reads; but it is what it is. It makes a lot of sense for him to be scum with both CES and Ika. But, I need their scum flips first before I feel confident in lynching Reg.

Who do you think is scum in CES/Reg?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What makes you think one scum and no more?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

I can see that. However, it's very important for scum not to get lynched in this set-up in particular.

Scum syncing up their reads makes much more sense to me to achieve this.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

1440 - I would guess Tammy was killed to make me look bad. I mean, outside of someone being widely town-read, the next best reason for scum to kill someone is to try and set someone else up. That fits me perfectly right? Scum!BBT would kill Tammy for sure.

I don't usually speculate on NK's but your question (to everyone else) was very subtly trying to set me up.

Also, and this one is very easy, Reg is still alive because he's scum. Or his reads are awful; prob scum though.

1441 - CES, why doesn't my sustained suspicion on ika reflect well on me? Are you saying I should not lynch/push/vote someone I think is scum just because nobody agrees with me? Or is it because he is your buddy and you don't want me pushing that line of thought?

Also, can you state the difference in my pursuit of ika as opposed to say, your pursuit of CD? I mean, you thought he was scum throughout D1 and D2 yet he flipped town, this doesn't reflect badly on you though, right?

Also, I disagree that a lot has happened. What has happened that should effect my reads on you and ika? Tell me.

You're explanation for your read progression on Aero was bullshit. I didn't buy it, I still don't buy it. The problem is, everyone else has and that's frustrating. It's also pretty clear now that CD was a counter-wagon to you.

I've had both my scum reads for some time, I have stated reasons why each are scum and there is nothing more I can do. I don't see anything to change my mind, only further reasons for why you're scum.

You have been posting and pushing less since your vote on me (~2 posts per page after vs. ~4 posts per page before). If you think you've caught scum in me, then that's a weird pattern.

Is this shit actually serious? Do you know how frustrating it is to truly believe you have found scum and have nobody fucking listen? Like, my biggest town reads are generally not on the same wave length as me and I'm just getting pissed off with it.

Yeah, I'm becoming demotivated to play this fucking game. So what?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Mostly because I think he's town and your unwavering suspicion in the face of everything.

I see. So you're suspicious of me because I'm scum reading someone you're town reading. That seems kind of dumb.

I think it does reflect badly on me but obviously to what degree it does is fairly subjective. Although you also agreed that Cheery Dog didn't look town.

Correct, but I didn't push him as he was nowhere near the scummiest person in the game. I mean, I'm not even saying you're scum because CD flipped town, I'm saying if you're town you should be able to see how what your saying makes no sense with relation to my reads on ika/you because of your own reads.

What about Ank unvoting me with the deadline nearing or elk and Anen's deadline no-show? I think plenty of things have happened that look more suspicious than me having an explanation that you don't fully buy.

How is a deadline no show alignment indicative? Sometimes, life gets in the way of a game of mafia. Is Ank's unvote supposed to somehow be alignment indicative? If so, how?

What are those further reasons?

CD being a counter-wagon to you. Clearly scum driven. Ika's play hasn't improved one iota and he continues to ask empty questions without any follow up. His subtle attempt at fingering me for the NK was scummy as fuck as well.

I looked like a plausible lynch for most of that time; you could've tried convincing theelkspeaks and Aneninen (they both even ended up on ika come deadline).

I did say I wanted to wait for Anen to catch up before ending the day. Also, I keep forgetting elk is in this game, so yeah, I guess I could have done that. I still think I tried pushing you pretty hard.

VOTE: Ankamius
Look at the mod iso if you don't see why, just glanced through it and holy jeez.

Elk, can you explain this vote further?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

1461 - CES, people not being here for deadline is not alignment indicative. That's ridiculous.

OK, I can see where you're coming from with the Ank unvote. I hadn't thought about it like that; his reasoning for the unvote is pretty poor as well.

Regarding CD being a scum driven wagon, that should be pretty clear. You're scum, CES. Scum obviously didn't want your lynch to happen, CD was a great counter-wagon and probably the easiest mis-lynch to push for scum as well. The fact all of my scum reads ended up on the CD wagon just reinforces my theory further. I have serious trouble believing both leading wagons were on town for pretty much the whole DP.

1462 - Same question to you Reg, why would my scum reads change when a) I haven't been shown to be wrong yet, b) none of the reasons I think they are scum have been addressed sufficiently and c) they continue to do scummy shit making my read even stronger.

The only read I would say I have been static on is Ika; I started scum reading him mid-to-late D1 and it's never changed. And I see no reason why it should. The problem with this site is it's extremely difficult to lynch someone who lurks/doesn't actually do much. As long as he asks a few shallow questions that look townie, he continues to slide by unnoticed.

Someone show me how ika is scum hunting, just show me. Ever since I have suspected him, he OMGUS'ed me and has never looked back. Has ika been accused of having static reads? No, because it suits other peoples needs.

I wasn't even scum-reading CES D1. I only started scum reading him on D2 when I went back to look at how the Aero wagon developed; I'm not sure how this is being considered as static. I notice nobody has a problem with my 'static' town reads, that's the funny part. My reads are OK to be static if it suits their particular needs/reads. Fuck that.

1464 - Reg, how am I coasting? I'm fucking trying to get people lynched who I think are scum and nobody is fucking interested, what do you want me to do? I'm getting fed up with this bullshit now, I really am.

I have explained both of my reads on Ces/Ika so I don't know why you're pretending I haven't.

1465 - CES, you can claim I have stopped looking for scum as much as you like because it's simply not true, I quick glance over my ISO shows this. Maybe Ank is scum with you and he was unvoting to jump on CD wagon? That's an interesting thought...

Yup, I haven't interacted with elk much, I kept forgetting he was in the game. I was waiting for Anen to catch up to interact with him and he's currently engaged in a wall-off with Ank in which I have little interest in.

I agree that my push on you lacks conviction. Not much I can do about that unfortunately.

1467 - Anen, I'm not sure what you're not following about what I said. It's pretty clear.

I don't like the way elk has slinked into the background but I have no interest in lynching him toDay; unless it's a deadline lynch.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hey CES, let's talk about static reads.

In VC 1.02, 1.03, 1.04, 1.05...all the way through to VC 1.20 your vote sits on Cheery Dog. Doesn't move once.

What happens after that? That's right, your sudden jump onto the Aero wagon with no read progression at all (oh wait, that's right, it happened outside of the thread)

Bullshit.

CES needs lynching. The fact he continued this trend of scum-reading CD for most (all?) of D2 and finally lynched him and then has the cheek to call my reads static is downright ridiculous.

I haven't looked at VCs from D2 yet but there were a few things I noted from D1's VCs that I'll bring up soon.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Alright, so, what do the D1 VCs tell us?

Here, have a read;

Ika's vote sat idle for the whole day. He sat not voting anybody until he hammered Aero. Ika knows I like to do VCA (and he knows Titus does as well) which makes his not voting look extremely scummy. Never mind that he actually hammered without providing any input/content at all. I want to reiterate this;

Ika voted nobody all Day.

Now, if I could direct you to VC 1.02;

Vote Count 1.02
ika (4) -

Aeronaut

,

Cheery Dog

,

Llamarble

, BlueBloodedToffee
BlueBloodedToffee (1) - Psyche

Cheery Dog

(1) - Cogito Ergo Sum

Llamarble

(1) - Zachrulez

Oversoul

(1) - theelkspeaks
theelkspeaks (1) - Regfan
Zachrulez (1) -

Oversoul

Not Voting (3) - Ankamius, ika, TellTaleHeart

You will see that the whole wagon on ika is town (if you accept that I'm town). I realise this was an early VC so it does't hold much weight, but it's worth noting.

VC 1.08 is pretty interesting;

Vote Count 1.08
theelkspeaks (5) - Regfan, BlueBloodedToffee,

Aeronaut

, Zachrulez,

Oversoul

Cheery Dog

(2) - Cogito Ergo Sum,

Llamarble

Psyche (2) - Antihero, Ankamius
BlueBloodedToffee (1) - Psyche

Oversoul

(1) - theelkspeaks

Not Voting (2) - ika,

Cheery Dog

Elk's wagon looks town as fuck; four town and then Regfan. I'm beginning to think Elk could be scum. If he is, I'm wrong on one of CES/Reg, probably Reg.

Finally, in 1.27;

Vote Count 1.27
Aeronaut (7) - Regfan,

Llamarble

, Cogito Ergo Sum,

Oversoul

, Zachrulez, theelkspeaks, ika
ika (3) -

Cheery Dog

, BlueBloodedToffee, Ankamius
Psyche (1) - Antihero
theelkspeaks (1) -

Aeronaut

Not Voting (1) - Psyche

The Aero wagon consists of - Reg, Llamarble, CES, Oversoul, Zach, elk and ika. Obviously Llamarble and Oversoul (Tammy) have flipped town. I would bet there is two scum in Reg/CES/elk/ika. I'd bet my life on it.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

So your further reason for me being scum is mostly that I'm scum and that Regfan (who is suspicious because he could be my partner) voted CD. And Cheery Dog wasn't a leading wagon at any point except the end Yesterday.

You're acting like I need more reasons to scum read you. I have reasons and I have stated them.

You're right, I thought CD was a leading wagon for a lot longer than what he was.

VC 2.16 is when CD wagon begins to pick up. And he did stay as a leading wagon for the next 12 pages (300 or so posts), so yeah, I would still argue that I doubt both leading wagons over a 12 page period and eventual lynch were on town.

After looking over the VCs I'm going to take back my bolded scum team to avoid looking silly. All of Reg/ika/CES were on both lynches and that feels too aggressive for scum. With how late D2 played out, I would imagine they were more spread out. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong on Reg because that is based on associations which was stupid of me to do in the first place.

I need to sort out elk/Ank/Anen. Ank seems town to me and elk looks the scummiest. I need to interact with Anen to get a feel for him, I can usually sniff him out pretty well if he's scum. It's a little difficult though with this wall off going on.

Anen & Elk - Can you both state your reads please?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Hmm, I don't get Ankamius' unvote late D2.

Like, it doesn't make sense from either alignment. I initially thought that maybe he was scum with CES but he unvotes

after

CD becomes the leading wagon (which he wouldn't need to do to save his buddy from being lynched). Also, VCA aside, I don't see scum motivation in Ank's posting.

CES, what is the scum motivation behind Ank unvoting? I know you said townies want to influence the lynch at the end of the day; anything else? Because it makes no sense to me.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

VC 2.15;

Vote Count 2.15
Cogito Ergo Sum (4) - Ankamius, Antihero, BlueBloodedToffee,

Cheery Dog

Aneninen (2) - Zachrulez, Regfan
BlueBloodedToffee (1) - ika

Cheery Dog

(1) - Cogito Ergo Sum
ika (1) - theelkspeaks

Not Voting (2) - Aneninen,

Tammy

If I'm right on Ank being town, this is a pretty townie wagon on CES. It also explains why the votes/wagons were dragging, scum are spread out among the other wagons trying to decide what to do.

It's also important to note that ika votes for CES in 2.05 and stays on him until 2.11. When CES' wagon becomes a four person wagon and he looks in real danger of being lynched, ika jumps off and goes back to sitting on me for the majority of the Day.

VC 2.24 was an interesting one;

Vote Count 2.24
Cogito Ergo Sum (4) - Ankamius, Antihero, BlueBloodedToffee,

Cheery Dog

Cheery Dog

(3) - Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez, Regfan
BlueBloodedToffee (1) - ika
ika (2) - theelkspeaks, Aneninen

Not Voting (1) -

Tammy

These two wagons look pretty town, right? Maybe Ank is scum on CES (I doubt it) and CES if for sure scum on CD, but the rest are town. And this is where the CD wagon really picks up.

VC 2.25 and CD is the leading wagon;

Vote Count 2.25

Cheery Dog

(5) - Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez, Regfan,

Tammy

, ika
Cogito Ergo Sum (4) - Ankamius, Antihero, BlueBloodedToffee,

Cheery Dog

ika (2) - theelkspeaks, Aneninen

Not Voting (0)

Tammy jumps on and then ika (ika's voting this game has been atrocious. It's so opportunistic). Now, the CD wagon doesn't look so town anymore. The wagons ends with Anti hammering;

Vote Count 2.29

Cheery Dog

(6) - Cogito Ergo Sum, Zachrulez, Regfan,

Tammy

, ika, Antihero
Cogito Ergo Sum (2) - BlueBloodedToffee,

Cheery Dog

ika (2) - theelkspeaks, Aneninen

Not Voting (1) - Ankamius

Look at that CD wagon. Think; where are the scum? Zach is town, Anti is town, Tammy has flipped, Reg is most likely town; that leaves ika/CES (Hint; they're both scum.)

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Your reads haven't been shown to be correct too.
Also, they

continue

scummy shyt. Ika has done very little Today. And I don't see why CED's Day3 posts are that shytty.

No, they haven't. But they will be if town give me a chance.

Ika has done very little all game; but that's not an issue for anyone else. I haven't said CES' posts D3 have been shitty; what are you talking about?

Who are those "other people"?

It depends on the reads.

It suits Zach because he town reads ika so he doesn't give a shit what he does.

It suits ika's scum buddies because he's coasting without doing anything.

Right now I strongly think that you're distancing from Ankamius. That's why you're unwilling to read our walls.

Yeah, you're wrong. Not reading your walls does not relate to distancing from Ank. That's dumb.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Anen, are you even reading my posts?

Go on, go and have a read. Then come back to me.

Continue to misrep me and you'll eat rope.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

No, not when I feel I'm wrong. I can change reads in the space of a post (funny that now I'm being accused of reads changing too quickly)

I didn't get involved with your discussion with Ank. If I did, I would have made sure I had my facts straight.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

CES, I don't need to convince you that you're scum. I need everyone else to see it, I feel like at this point it should be pretty fucking obvious, but whatever, I'll wait.

You didn't claim it was 'definitely' scummy, haha. Now starts the backtracking.

Can we lynch this please?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

OK, so I was reading elk's ISO and I noticed a trend; he says he is going to do a lot of shit and nothing ever comes of it. He's also pretty fency-sitty/wishy-washy with a lot of the things he says.

His early play; he flings mud at the early Ika wagon and then doesn't push it any further. He claims in 117 that he is going to look closely at the people voting Ika and this never comes. He does a quick ISO of Cheery and then sheeps his strongest town-read (TTH) and votes Psyche in 201.

357 - Zach is scum. Then nothing. He explains his read in 369 and then there is no follow up.

387 - This is his post that seems to have got him town-read (ignored) for the majority of the game. What's interesting in this post is that his team (copper) are throwing suspicion on CES. Elk himself says CES is null/scum. This, again, is never followed up on.

From here he moves onto Aero. His read on Aero in 433 is as wishy-washy as it gets.

545 - He is going to reread Aero and get input from his team.

596 - No explanation of his reread and Aero is scummy after elk read his ISO. No explanation for this read at all, no reasons. States intent to hammer.

Yeah, I could lynch Elk toDay.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What do you think this conversation was about? Me convincing you Ank is scum? I'm trying to sort out your alignment.

Ank, I still want your reads specifically.

You very clearly assigned scum points to Ank for the unvote and I don't see how that works; so yeah, that's what I assumed the conversation was about.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Talking to Wgeurts a bit.

He says this:

@BBT: CES is town for fudge sake get your crumpets together and get on a real scum like Ank/Zach/Ika!!!

Oh shit, I better go ahead and do that then.

As well as explaining the CES town-read, can he go ahead and explain how Zach and Ank are scum.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

tell wgeurts to lay off the weed and the nationalistic stereotypes

also, kindly ask him to explain why CES is town

Why aren't you voting CES?

snip

Ank, I have no idea how you have Zach and Ika as nulls.

Anen voting Ika at deadline and turning around and going after Ank today feels more planned to me than genuine scumhunting.

Plus everything else he's posting today that I want to burn with fire.

This is a good post.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Inb4 CES votes Anen and ika 'lol hammers'.

[BlueBloodedToffee]

– He never jumped on the Psyche nor the Elk wagon and those were two easy-to-push wagons. Tammy and Aeronaut have both flipped town, he believes Regfan is town. So, there must be a scum on the Elk wagon, which means BBT or Zach. Both of them if Ank isn't scum.

Or it was an all-town wagon on scum. Your whole point here revolves around elk being town. Why is elk town?

– Meanwhile, CES had his own thoughts, he was following them instead of "going with the flow". This is something town should do. (Actually I was miming this as scum in some games but yes, Wgeurts may be right. CES could have joined either of the major wagons.)

No, he didn't. A few people had expressed doubt over CD because of the token issue. CES was very much 'going with the flow' of the game and joined the biggest wagon at the nearest opportunity.

– He was also pretty justified in his voting of aeronaut. He'd already showed suspicion earlier and his two top solid town reads where on the wagon. If I (Wgeurts) had the same reads as him in this situation I would have joined that wagon as well. it looked like a wagon which is built up off town only which usually leads to a scumlynch. (If I have time I'll double-check this. If Wgeurts's right, the whole cornerstone of my previous FoS on CES turns into nothing.)

No, he hadn't. There was very little suspicion of Aeronaut before his vote - I have already very clearly pointed this out (CES has also said himself that the read progression happened outside of the thread so I'm not sure where this is coming from). I already addressed the issue of him sheeping his top two town reads as well.

– The worst people on the Aeronaut wagon were ika, zach and elk. Elk seems to be a lynchbait thus zach and ika are scum. (He was talking about the lynch-wagon with these names: Regfan, Llamarble, CES, Tammy, Zachrulez, theelkspeaks, ika. I'm not sure whether there were two scums on that wagon. My personal thought: Ankamius joined the Ika-wagon when it was sure that it wouldn't be a real counter to Aeronaut.)

The worst on the Aero wagon is CES/ika. Elk is lynchbait? That's your reasoning for Zach and ika being scum? Nah, I don't buy that at all.

– He started off the next Day by pushing his own scumreads instead of the most likely lynches. Throughout the game he's been doing this. (I noticed the same on Day3.)

You mean pushing the same scum read as what he pushed for most of D1? Apparently, static scum reads are a scum tell. What makes you think CD wasn't a likely lynch D2? Who would have been more likely?

– he didn't freak out at the wagon that grew on him at some point, no survivalism. (Hmmm... that's not a big tell in itself but along with the others...)

This is weak. Someone as experienced as CES does not freak out over a couple of votes.

@Ank - I saw your explanation for Zach read but I don't understand it.

Can you elaborate on your Zach scum read prior to the things that moved him towards null?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

What's your read on CES, Zach?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Why?

[BlueBloodedToffee]

Elk, no response to 1504?

Also, are you willing to vote CES toDay? If not, why not?