A Musical Mafia! (Game over)

[podoboq]

Wow.


OK, so I just noticed that the day started this afternoon, and I've spent the day catching up during my brother's birthday. I'm gonna go ahead and give an introduction, since I'm getting the feeling that most of you guys have played with eachother at some point, based on all the meta discussion.

This is only my third game on this forum, or on any forum at all. I play a lot of Town of Salem, and I play games in person all the time, but this will be by far the most involved game of mafia I've ever played in my life. The other games I've played here are a newbie game (with Cakez and Amihan (yo!)), and a micro game of One Night Werewolf. It was an exciting game. Maybe read it. The whole game is about is barely longer than this game has been so far.


So I've skimmed, and I think I got the gist of most of what's going on. I don't understand all of your guys vocabulary yet, and I'll try to pick up everything from here until the end, but just wanted to warn you guys that I've missed some stuff.


So let's get started on this Miller stuff? I have a problem with Amihan's lack of follow up here, but I don't see reason for scum to counterclaim Miller, and then fail to follow through. As of now, I think what Amihan did was a gambit (it's the kind of thing I do), and I don't think it's scummy at all. Also post 349 gives me the heebies.

[podoboq]

VOTE: FriendlessSeniors

I feel like FS hasn't been responding sufficiently to this wagon.

[podoboq]

Wrong Lynch, Cakes, Sakura and Mirhawk are probably town.

This game is easy.

I was actually trying to imply the opposite.

You should sheep me btw.

Everyone we need more Seniors votes!

Just as a note everyone should move there vote over to Sakura

I found scum!

Everyone pile on Seniors!!!!

This evasive scum is op!

I find this attitude disturbing and condescending. I don't think it makes you scum, but I think it's anti-town, because it's implying that people should let you do their thinking for them. I'll come to my own conclusions, and I'll use logic to get there (not sheeping).

There is no actual

content

in these posts. Like, please let us know where you stand. Tell us your reads. Don't imply that there's a problem with us developing our own.

[podoboq]

I'm largely ignoring beeboy here.

I dislike how much we are being discussed. It makes no sense considering we had done nothing at the time

I get that beeboy has 140 posts (HOW) and many of them are a bit useless, but you don't get to just ignore the person yelling to lynch you, especially when other people are clearing hearing that and saying "Yeah, maybe we should just lynch you."

I don't see town!FS ignoring beeboy here.

[podoboq]

ok, maybe we can lynch this clownfuck instead.

yeah ok

Vote: Axelrod

serious vote.

dramonic vote for PP w/ me please

Dram no vote with me.

If either of you can provide me with a good reason to ignore obvscum Axel, then sure?

Thanks for reminding me. What was all this about? I see no analysis in your posts, so can you explain to me why your "serious vote" is on Axelrod Gunnarson?

[podoboq]

I also think beeboy is town. I don't

like

how he's playing, but I doubt scum would act like he's acting.

[podoboq]

like, podoboq ignores the reasons that beeboy is giving for the read on us
then say "meh you suck but you're not scum for it"
and then wait
and then say "yeah you're town"
this ain't normal

-EP

I pointed out beeboy's problematic posts because they're problematic. They aren't necessarily scummy, they're just bad for conducive gameplay.
Literally telling people to sheep you is bad for town.

In my (limited) experience, townies aren't as aggressive and flamboyant as beeboy has been. So yeah, I'm townreading him anyway.

[podoboq]

sigh

Fine, I'm on board with this. If it was a gambit from Amihan, she won't let us lynch her.

VOTE: pistachion



p-edit:

Jester is bastard, whoever mentioned that.
Dram who are the 3 scum?

I don't know what this means.

[podoboq]

What about it?
Jester is bastard, so it couldn't be in this game as its non-bastard.
Dram said "that's three scum(reads presumably)" so I want to know who they are.

I don't know what "bastard" means in the context of mafiascum. I also don't know how this game is non-whatever-bastard-means.

I think I know what Jester is, though. They win if they're lynched right? Do they kill somebody who lynched them the following night?

[podoboq]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Bastard_Mod
Basically a bastard game is one where the mod is basically trolling the players, and there's overtly crazy/unfair roles like cults, jesters, etc in the game. This game has been designated non-bastard, so none of that can be in this game.

Jester wins if it's lynched yeah.

Makes sense. Couldn't find anything on the glossary on the wiki. Didn't think to just search it. Good info to know.

[podoboq]

So obviously off on this
UNVOTE:
Back on this
VOTE: Friendless Seniors

[podoboq]

I'm largely ignoring beeboy here. I dislike how much we are being discussed. It makes no sense considering we had done nothing at the time

Tictac if your read on them is null I don't understand this defense of them at all. Seniors has done stuff, nothing useful though and the Snarky vote was pretty bad.

Tictac what's your read on Seniors?

Snarky is lynchbait so Beeboy's argument about Seniors pushing Snarky being a scum move does hold weight. Thus why I am still voting them.

Don't like Beeboy's flipflop on Sakura. Felt like there was no dedication or serious belief in it with how fast he got on and off.
Seniors's Snarky vote is bad as well. Not enough to justify it and Snarky is definitely not someone you get a serious scumread on from one post.

VOTE: Friendless Seniors

Why not vote anyone in your entrance then immediately sheep Beeboy onto Seniors?

These stances make no sense. Like, he is basically scumreading anyone making any sort of impact in the game. This is a super opportunistic position in the game and needs to be lynched.

@TrueOgre

In my skim, I was very confident in my reads on beeboy and Cakez as town. Both of them reading FS as scum makes me question FS pretty strongly.

I think their opinion on Cakez is kind of just bullshit, and I think "ignoring" beeboy is mindless. I'll be re-reading the thread after I get my classwork done this weekend, but in the meantime, based on my skim, I'm pretty comfortable pushing the wagon along.

But yeah, honestly, I think most of my read is coming from town reading Cakez and beeboy. Maybe part of it comes from the skimming. Maybe part of it is something subliminal coming from the Trump icon. I'll be reviewing this weekend, and I don't expect a lynch to happen before then.

[podoboq]

Hey guys I think Swordsworth should be the ultimate lynch for today

Carry on

Can you explain why? Is it just because of inactivity and

....What if Pistachio is shot and flips town? What does this suggest about Ami, and would that warrant an instant vote?

[podoboq]

Cakez, can you clarify for me your read on Sakura and beeboy? I know that you think beeboy waffled, and I agree with you, but where does that leave you on reading their alignments?

[podoboq]

Hey guys I think Swordsworth should be the ultimate lynch for today

Carry on

Can you explain why? Is it just because of inactivity and

....What if Pistachio is shot and flips town? What does this suggest about Ami, and would that warrant an instant vote?

467 in general is just really awful

It has nothing to do with the activity

Do you feel differently?

I agree that it's pretty bad, and I think it warrants suspicion, but that alone isn't enough to for me to consider him my "ultimate lynch for today." It just seemed like a stretch, so I was wondering if you were seeing something I wasn't.

[podoboq]

sorry guys beeboy sucked the fun out of this for me a bit.

is it still just a lot of unproductive noise or

See, this is my problem with the FS slot. It feels like most of their contribution is discounting the people on their wagon, rather than discussing relevant parts of the game. Like, the Miller CC and Mirhan's response to it seems like the topic of the moment, and FS comes in with this when nobody's even discussing that wagon.

This could just be apathy for the game after feeling like he was tunneled by a loud and stubborn player, but this attitude isn't helpful for town.

[podoboq]

Hey guys I think Swordsworth should be the ultimate lynch for today

Carry on

Can you explain why? Is it just because of inactivity and

....What if Pistachio is shot and flips town? What does this suggest about Ami, and would that warrant an instant vote?

467 in general is just really awful

It has nothing to do with the activity

Do you feel differently?

I agree that it's pretty bad, and I think it warrants suspicion, but that alone isn't enough to for me to consider him my "ultimate lynch for today." It just seemed like a stretch, so I was wondering if you were seeing something I wasn't.

What do you think was bad about it?

Post 467 reads as potential scum trying to understand town's opinion, so that he can play around that. It's entirely possible that Pistachion and Amihan are both town (which is kind of what I'm thinking at the moment), and this post is suggesting that our best course of action might be to lynch both.

So the biggest problem is that his only actual content is on the Miller CC. Basically, the only original thought in that post is a suggested play that I think benefits scum, and he hasn't said anything else, so that's all I have to read.

[podoboq]

Jester is bastard, whoever mentioned that.
Dram who are the 3 scum?

axel podo davesaz

i can see why someone would think these three are scum so that's good i guess

ami and pist are town probably

True Ogre's entrance post is pretty balls.
Withholding vote is fine, ESPECIALLY not after beeboy tells him to vote us and then ogre does.
Look at how terrible withholding vote is there. Ogre OPENLY admits to being unsure of people that they want to sort, that they are considering to maybe be scum, and then just... doesn't vote. nope.
"I will entertain Sakura argument" is basically saying "I don't want to commit yet (which is fine) but i'm not gonna do anything about it (which isn't fine)"
"keeping an eye on axelrod" uh huh.

Can you put this into English though?

What's wrong with him not voting?

1. Ogre targets certain people as "I think these people might be scum but I am not sure"
2. Voting someone is one way to maybe get a bit of that information
3. Ogre waits for beeboy to actually do this and I still don't know why.

So obviously off on this

tonally? this bothers me.

Both of them reading FS as scum makes me question FS pretty strongly.

I think their opinion on Cakez is kind of just bullshit, and I think "ignoring" beeboy is mindless. I'll be re-reading the thread after I get my classwork done this weekend, but in the meantime, based on my skim, I'm pretty comfortable pushing the wagon along.

But yeah, honestly, I think most of my read is coming from town reading Cakez and beeboy. Maybe part of it comes from the skimming. Maybe part of it is something subliminal coming from the Trump icon. I'll be reviewing this weekend, and I don't expect a lynch to happen before then.

podo, do you feel like you're disconnected from the game? I'm bolding this to make sure you don't miss it.

VOTE: podoboq
this is the right vote, hippy, but subject to change

here, town vibes i got since i last posted maybe dramonic, definitely ami, pist, beeboy, probably tammy

-EP

so yeah both heads are here. trump party!

Yeah, honestly, I do. This game moved at a WAY faster pace out of the gate than my newbie game, has over double the players, and most seem to have some meta knowledge on eachother. I considered replacing out, but I think this is a good opportunity to learn, so I'm gonna stay the course.

I'm trying to engage though, and I think I've been providing some value.

If your last few posts are legitimate, and you're willing to engage in the new things that have happened in the game which are unrelated to the wagon on you, then I'm totally happy to unvote here. If in my reread, I reevaluate your slot more positively, then I'm totally happy to unvote here.

[podoboq]

Fair answer.

I think I'm just curious because I want to be townread by more people so I don't have to scumhunt as "aggressively" this time.

Not scumreading this. I just got out of a game with Ami where she had to play incredibly aggressively because she replaced into the craziest scummiest slot. She had to play hard because we had reason to scumread her.

If she wants to be able to lay back a little bit and relax more through this game, that totally makes sense to me.

[podoboq]

It's super blatant. Scum doesn't often say shit like that. Town doesn't usually care.

Agree. I think that post of Amihan's is too honest to be newbscum.

I checked earlier and they don't have any completed scum games. None of the newbies do, except podoboq if that one night ultimate werewolf game counts (I'm not inclined to count it since he didn't know he was scum or who his buddy was).

Snarky was scum in o617 but that's it.

I actually knew I was Minion, and knew that Alex was my wolf. It was Alex who didn't realize he was wolf, because he believed my claim of being Troublemaker, and switching his alignment. The game was wacky.

[podoboq]

See, this is my problem with the FS slot. It feels like most of their contribution is discounting the people on their wagon, rather than discussing relevant parts of the game. Like, the Miller CC and Mirhan's response to it seems like the topic of the moment, and FS comes in with this when nobody's even discussing that wagon.

This could just be apathy for the game after feeling like he was tunneled by a loud and stubborn player, but this attitude isn't helpful for town.

That post looked to me like he hadn't read the thread since his previous post. Have you ever played a game where someone got discouraged like this as either alignment? How would you distinguish between scum apathy and town apathy?

No, not really. In the One Night Werewolf game, a townie gave up on contributing early because he didn't like the mechanics of the game, being that players can change alignments, or not know their alignments. That's different from giving up because there's a wagon on you.

Also post 349 gives me the heebies.

Me too! What about it don't you like specifically?

He says he's worried about a scum counterclaim from Amihan, then us lynching pistachion. He says he doesn't know what we'd do after that, but I think it's obvious that you just lynch Amihan in that case. This is moot now, because Amihan claimed it was a gambit, but if she stuck to her Miller claim, and pistachion flipped Miller, the play seems obvious, and it's a 1for1 trade. That's good for town.

He suggests lynching pistacion, then suggests not lynching Amihan in retaliation if pistachion flips Miller. That could be protecting a scum partner (Amihan) or more likely, getting town cred for suggesting not to lynch someone he knows will flip town (Amihan), knowing that if we follow through with the pistachion lynch we would definitely lynch Amihan next. Again, these lines of play have changed since Amihan claimed it was a gambit, but that's where town was when he made that post.

In my skim, I was very confident in my reads on beeboy and Cakez as town. Both of them reading FS as scum makes me question FS pretty strongly.

Which points that beeboy and Cakez made against Seniors resonates most strongly with you and why?

It's less what they've said about FS and more what FS has said about them. I think FS's post on Cakez being scum for his readslist is bullshit, and I don't like the way they've acted about beeboy. Basically, I wouldn't expect town!FS to have the reads on those two players that they do. So I looked into Seniors because Cakez and beeboy clearly thought that was a tree worth barking up, and in my ISO, I had a problem with Seniors' perspective on Cakez and beeboy.

Honestly, I think beeboy's "You didn't buddy me" reasoning is hollow, but Seniors' response to it is lacking.

If your last few posts are legitimate, and you're willing to engage in the new things that have happened in the game which are unrelated to the wagon on you, then I'm totally happy to unvote here. If in my reread, I reevaluate your slot more positively, then I'm totally happy to unvote here.

Why are you telling them what to do to earn your unvote? Do you think this task would be too difficult for them to complete, if scum?

The only out I give FS to get me off their back is to engage with town. If FS is scum, engaging with town will give us more opportunities to read them. If FS is town, then I can encourage them to rejoin the game. So I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and extending an olive branch.

[podoboq]

I haven't re-read yet, that is still coming, but I had this thought. What about a "Musical" claim. i.e.: just what Musical you are from, and nothing else?

Thoughts?

What does this accomplish?

Maybe nothing. Maybe something?

You think it's a bad idea?

I think this idea is cute, but I'd rather not put any stock in flavor claiming. Maybe a townie has a highly scummy musical for flavor. Somebody will use it as an argument to lynch him. I think it's cool to do that at some point in the game, but round-robin flavor claiming day one seems to early.

[podoboq]

Sorry I've been a bit absent recently. Kinda haven't had much to add. Here's a tiny readslist.

TOWN

Amihan: Her gambit has been immensely useful for the town as a reaction test. If she's scum, she made a huge mistake.

Pistachion: I mean, he isn't counterclaimed. I'm not voting pistach unless something pretty serious happens.

beeboy: Too much loud nonsense to be scum. He drew

way

too much attention to himself.

Cakez: I think his perspective on things is very towny. He's open to contribute, engages in just about every conversaiton, and his opinions seem to align with mine for the most part.

SCUM

FriendlessSeniors: Not contributing in a meaningful way, and attacks Cakez for what is clearly bs.

dramonic: The only way dramonic seems to know how to contribute is by flinging shit at people then ducking away and seeing what stuck. He's scumreading people, but refuses to provide any logic as to why. I've asked him why he's scumreading Axelrod, but no response.

Mirhawk: Hate hate hate the response to Amihan's gambit.

Swordsworth: Hate his response about as much, but he has contributed less, so I'm willing to back away from him now on the expectation that there is more to come.


Assume everyone else is null at this point.

[podoboq]

Apologies, pistachi0n.

*she

[podoboq]

Pistachion: I mean, he isn't counterclaimed. I'm not voting pistach unless something pretty serious happens.

So this is the first thing that caught my attention since I remembered pist actually being CC'd. I went and ISO'd Ami and she retracted her claim.
One question why's your townread on pist being based off "no counter claim"?
Point 1) Pistachion could be scum fake claiming miller, Pistachion could be scum or town being an actual miller, lack of counter claim doesnt equal town, specially since the setup is unknown, the only thing the miller thing means is that we cant rely on a cop to check it.
Point 2) Nevertheless Pistachion's 560 Looks towny.
UNVOTE:

If pistachi0n had done scummy things, I might not be reading her as town. But claiming a town role (which to my understanding is usually unique) in your opening post is too bold for scum. It's entirely possible that she's just scum getting cute, but I'd seriously bet against it.

Things could change my read on her, but it needs to overcome the strength of her claim.

[podoboq]

He's barely even here. We would be better off lynching a more active player. That way there would be far more information available to the town in general. As we would be able to examine how other players interact with the lynched player.

How do you not know that, this conversation happens literally every time a policy lynch is proposed.

I agree with this logic in a vacuum. Not sure at this point how I think we should apply that logic with regard to Swords.

[podoboq]

Hello again.

If somebody flipped town,

would

you give towncred to the people who suggested not to lynch them?

It definitely depends on how they presented their argument for not lynching. In Mirhawk's case, there's a legitimate fear that it comes from knowledge town doesn't have. In that case, definitely not giving towncred. There's not a binary answer to this.

Would you expect townSeniors to townread Cakez and/or beeboy in response to being attacked, or do you expect townSeniors to have a more nuanced read on Cakez and beeboy than they do?

I've definitely townread people who have me as a scumread. A person scumreading you should not automatically result in you scumreading them. Town's scumhunting shouldn't be localized onto the people who are scumreading them.

The only out I give FS to get me off their back is to engage with town. If FS is scum, engaging with town will give us more opportunities to read them. If FS is town, then I can encourage them to rejoin the game. So I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and extending an olive branch.

What do you think of Errant's latest posts? (ErrantParabola is the head that signs as -EP and writes longer more thoughtful posts. hiplop is the head that does one liners and forgets to sign his posts.)

Spoiler: sliced down FS post

Axel might be town for that readswall as well, 904.

I will say I think the "EP" head sounds better than the "Hippy" head? At least, as best I can tell, I think most of the posts I don't like seem to be coming from that one, but that could just be the one head not being as good at being scum as the one head just being more Townie. And even the EP head appears to have defaulted to a "Sheep" vote behind another player, so that's not particularly great either.

OK NEVER MIND
WHAT THE FUCK DUDE YOU EXPECT US TO JUST PUSH RANDOM VANITY WAGONS ARE YOU KIDDING OF COURSE I'M GOING TO SHEEP SOMEONE IF THEY'RE SCUMMY HOW DID NO ONE ELSE CATCH THIS
And yeah if you actually wanted to evaluate your reads (as town would do) you wouldn't say "Hey, EP is better but that could be because EP is better as scum" you would say "Hey, how does hiplop play as scum? Is it usually like this?"
The fact that you didn't ask this question means that you're
1. Finding reasons to scum read us that aren't legit
2. Not actually evaluating these reasons because you don't CARE how legit your read is as long as they make your case look good
So yeah, take that previous townread and toss that one in the trash

Well I really hate this. That thing I said about focusing your scumhunting elsewhere....yeah.

Spoiler: more of that post

I think it's notable how Dram pops back up the instant he gets a few votes on him.

oh my god
this can't be real

VOTE: Axelrod
dramonic is your vote on axel because if so good

-EP

Maybe I shouldn't be townreading Axelrod, but he's right about Dramonic, and using his opinion on Dram as a reason to scumread him is either:
"1. Finding reasons to scum read us that aren't legit
2. Not actually evaluating these reasons because you don't CARE how legit your read is as long as they make your case look good"


On FS: Unless I'm missing something, there's been basically one post of major significance since our last interaction. And I don't like it.


On Dramonic: Cakez says this is just how Dram plays. If that's just true, and Dram is town, fuck him anyway VOTE: Dramonic. He's contributing nothing. Call it policy, because it is. Dramonic doesn't deserve to survive into day two if he insists on being useless. If he's scum, we get no opportunities to read him. If he's town, he's the most expendable member of town.

I entirely expect him to come in with a oneliner about how I'm scum, and so are the other people voting for him.

Dram, if you're actually town, and you're seriously so dense that you assume we're all scum for disliking this play, then ISO people and start giving some logic that town can use.

[podoboq]

His responses in general feel super off. He sounds a lot more like he wants to be agreeable than actually trying to get something done.

That's a hell of a lot more than we've gotten out of him this game, and it happened within the first week. We've waited a week here and the best we got is this:

dram tbf you aren't really doing much

At least

I'm

voting scum

Whether or not dram is normally like this, it's not OK. I haven't posted much, but when I do, I at least try to offer something. I'm giving people an opportunity to read me, and I'm putting ideas on the table with reasons. What's dram actually offering to this game? If he's scum, are we just going to continue to not lynch him because of the fact that we know he plays like scum as town?

[podoboq]

I'm not lynching dram today over Skybird or Ranger (sorry you replaced into a scum slot)

I can see joining a Ranger lynch today, but not sure enough on Skybird yet to switch off of dram.

[podoboq]

It definitely depends on how they presented their argument for not lynching. In Mirhawk's case, there's a legitimate fear that it comes from knowledge town doesn't have. In that case, definitely not giving towncred. There's not a binary answer to this.

OMFG this is so stupid.

I don't care if you think I'm scum because my vote switch sounded fake or contrived.
But every person who thinks there was some kind of information scum would have that town wouldn't in this situation is talking out of their ass.

I think pistachion and Amihan are both town. Scum

knows

if pistachion and Amihan are both town.

When I see your response to the Miller garbage, I'm not saying that it looks to me like you know who the actual Miller is. I'm saying it looks like you know they're both town, and are stirring the pot making sure that one of the two of them comes out of it being scumread by town.


For reference:

/lawls

Anyways, it seems the thing to do would be to String Pistachio.

Only thing is I'm a little worried about a scum counterclaim on Ami's part.
I mean what if Piss flips Miller? I don't see myself as being comfortable with either way we could go in that case.

Unvote
Vote: Pistachio

Eh, what the hell.

[podoboq]

most of my read is coming from town reading Cakez and beeboy.

Why are you townreading Cakez?

I like how he's engaged with other players. He mentions things he finds scummy, asks about them, and requires that people justify their actions. That's how I play the game.

I like how he was hard on beeboy for the Sakura waffling, specifically.

If your last few posts are legitimate, and you're willing to engage in the new things that have happened in the game which are unrelated to the wagon on you, then I'm totally happy to unvote here. If in my reread, I reevaluate your slot more positively, then I'm totally happy to unvote here.

Ungh. Offer to unvote Seniors in response to OMGUS from Seniors.

I'm not "offering" to unvote FS. I'm telling them what they need to do to be worthy of an unvote. "If your play demonstrates that you're towny to me, I'll take my vote off. As it stands, I'm voting for you, because you haven't been playing the game like town should."

[podoboq]

I'm not lynching dram today over Skybird or Ranger (sorry you replaced into a scum slot)

I can see joining a Ranger lynch today, but not sure enough on Skybird yet to switch off of dram.

Why would you say this when Ranger hasn't even posted yet?

Because I'm not comfortable with the slot based on Swordsworth's (lack of) contribution. If Ranger can contribute something, that can obviously change, but if Ranger plays similarly to Swords, it's not looking good for that slot.

[podoboq]

Shouldn't you be voting me instead of your vanity wagon on dramonic?

I'm not 100% on you, and frankly, I liked post 1199. I really don't like how people are just accepting dramonic's play, though.

Also, I don't know what a "vanity" wagon is.

[podoboq]

I'm not lynching dram today over Skybird or Ranger (sorry you replaced into a scum slot)

I can see joining a Ranger lynch today, but not sure enough on Skybird yet to switch off of dram.

Why would you say this when Ranger hasn't even posted yet?

Because I'm not comfortable with the slot based on Swordsworth's (lack of) contribution. If Ranger can contribute something, that can obviously change, but if Ranger plays similarly to Swords, it's not looking good for that slot.

Yeah, we should look at Ranger's slot, but it's awfully bold to intend to vote someone who hasn't posted at all.

I'm not voting him yet. I'm just saying that if a wagon moves on him in the next seven days, and we're coming on deadline, and nothing has changed, I'm OK with that wagon.

I have no intention of lynching him before he gets a chance to start posting.

[podoboq]

@Cakes
I get what you're saying, but if replacing out was a sure scumtell people would have figured that out a long time ago.

For me a vanity wagon doesn't have to be a one vote wagon. It's more if the person is ignoring a more viable wagon to be on one with low chances of going through.

So can you explain why the dramonic wagon is a vanity wagon from your perspective? What's the more viable wagon we should be on? Until a few posts back, I was heavily considering you as the answer.

[podoboq]

You're the only one voting him, nobody else is very interested.

If you're talking to me, you're factually wrong. Axelrod and davesas (admittedly not the best company) were voting for dram before I did, and as far as I'm aware still are.

[podoboq]

Podo what do you think of skybird?

I really don't like the whole dropping his RVS vote 1000 posts into the game to start doing serious scumhunting, then the the first thing he does is ask Snarky (of all people) a question about something he said 1000 posts ago.

Too scummy to be scum is stupid, but I mean that's ridiculous.

Still not sold one way or the other. I'll review her ISO.

Podo did you read the ISO I linked?
Snarky is a quality vig shot, no point wagoning him.

Are you talking about dram's ISO? I did. I linked to a post from that ISO. I believe that dram acts like this as town, but I believe he also acts like this as scum, and if it's going to be like this all game eventually we have to make the decision whether or not we're willing to gamble on a player for whom we have no way of forming reads.

[podoboq]

OK, yeah, didn't realize Skybird's ISO was so short. Seems way too scattershot for my liking. I'm putting her as a scumread. If the wagon moves on Skybird, I'll jump in.

[podoboq]

OK, so this progression from Ranger is fantastic. Screw everything I said about Sword's potential as a scum slot.

[podoboq]

There is basically no need for this level of specificity, and it's highly appreciated.

[podoboq]

Maybe I shouldn't be townreading Axelrod, but he's right about Dramonic, and using his opinion on Dram as a reason to scumread him is either:
"1. Finding reasons to scum read us that aren't legit
2. Not actually evaluating these reasons because you don't CARE how legit your read is as long as they make your case look good"

Look at this entire gourmet platter of a case that I give on Axelrod and you focus on the tiniest shrimp and say that it's rotten
Do you have anything to say about the actual reasons why Axelrod is scum?
-EP

OK, well if you actually read 1178, you'd see that I commented on everything in your wall that was discussing Axelrod, but whatever. I'll get to your new arguments later when it's not Survivor night, but judging by the way you completely misrepped me right there, I'm not entirely confident that it's going to warrant a full response.

[podoboq]

Mirhawk, I'm re-reading the thread and working through ISO's. That's why you see the question to snarky.

And I never said I was good at this game. I just enjoy playing it.

This is the first Skybird post I think is really scummy.

Why do you think it's scummy?

"I never said I was good at this game. I just enjoy playing it"

seems like flippant scum defending being scumread

.

10 points to pistachi0n for a spot on read.

[podoboq]

That's partially why. His recent Dram push sucks too.

What is awful about his dram push?

I think it is pretty plausible for anyone unfamiliar with dram to be scum reading him.

That could explain the initial push. But I explained how Dram always plays like this and he's still pushing it.

I mean, are you agreeing that (without considering this person's specific "meta") that the way he's playing is scummy? That's the first question.

If you don't think it is, then, we're just not even in the same ballpark in terms of how to play this game.

If you agree that it's scummy, but just not for

him

, because

he

always plays like this, my question to you is, what do you do about it? Because it sounds like you're just giving him a pass (because you think he's impossible to read?)

Whereas I think, if he gets voted, and he doesn't want to get lynched, it's going to make him play better and either show he's actually town, or, not.

^^^^ SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN BACK ^^^^

[podoboq]

So Ranger says we should decide between Mirhawk and FS today.

@Ranger: whose lynch and flip provides the most information for town? Is there another metric that we should use to determine who we lynch today?

[podoboq]

So I think Ranger is obvtown here, but even if she isn't, what does it honestly matter for today's lynch? We were probably going to lynch Mirhawk or FS anyway.

I suggest we proceed as normal. If today's lynch flips scum, what does that say about Ranger? If they flip town, we can reassess.

In case this is some super complicated bussing, I'd suggest FS as our lynch tonight since Ranger is voting Mirhawk. Plus, this way we can get beeboy on the wagon.

VOTE: FriendlessSeniors

If there's a flaw on this logic, someone please point it out to me.

[podoboq]

Ranger's replace-in as scum in Open 627 was similar to this one, though much shorter. I don't remember seeing her town replace-in so it's not enough info to make a definitive call by itself. However I find the Tammy read especially troubling, since her second post wan't until page 20. I would never give a read on a single RVS only post, much less a top of the list read, and can't think of a town motivation to do so. Now that I've seen Ranger's scum game this looks pretty suspicious. I also got some feeling that she wanted to enter the flow with her reads agreeing with the majority.
VOTE: Ranger

I wasn't given pause by beeboy, but this is making me reconsider. I still think the best course of action is to continue as normal for the day, and reevaluate during the next day. One of Mirhawk or FS is almost definitely scum, and scum!Ranger would probably deflect onto the townie, so why not move forward with the person who wasn't her target in case it's a ruse?

[podoboq]

It definitely depends on how they presented their argument for not lynching. In Mirhawk's case, there's a legitimate fear that it comes from knowledge town doesn't have. In that case, definitely not giving towncred. There's not a binary answer to this.

OMFG this is so stupid.

I don't care if you think I'm scum because my vote switch sounded fake or contrived.
But every person who thinks there was some kind of information scum would have that town wouldn't in this situation is talking out of their ass.

I think pistachion and Amihan are both town. Scum

knows

if pistachion and Amihan are both town.

When I see your response to the Miller garbage, I'm not saying that it looks to me like you know who the actual Miller is. I'm saying it looks like you know they're both town, and are stirring the pot making sure that one of the two of them comes out of it being scumread by town.


For reference:

/lawls

Anyways, it seems the thing to do would be to String Pistachio.

Only thing is I'm a little worried about a scum counterclaim on Ami's part.
I mean what if Piss flips Miller? I don't see myself as being comfortable with either way we could go in that case.

Unvote
Vote: Pistachio

Eh, what the hell.

Ah, that's fine actually.

I thought this was more of that business where I knew it was a gambit because I'm scum.

NOTE: Mirhawk's original post was not actually quoting mine, but I wanted to share the two in context with one another since it was in reply anyway.

I'll be honest, I started to townread Mirhawk after this. He saw a flaw in logic, was calling people on it, and then when I explained my logic, and he didn't see a flaw in it, he conceded that I had a fair argument. I don't see town bending like that.


I don't like his position on Ranger (or at least didn't like it), but I'm still holding out the possibility that he's town. FS, on the other hand, I'm basically sold on.

[podoboq]

@podo what makes you say that?

Can you clarify what you're asking about, specifically? Like, quote the specific thing?

[podoboq]

@podo what makes you say that?

Can you clarify what you're asking about, specifically? Like, quote the specific thing?

One of Seniors or Mirhawk must be scum is somewhere in your post

Seniors and Mirhawk are town's highest scumreads, and frankly I think Seniors is obvscum. No longer sure about Mirhawk, but if I were to put odds on it, I think FS is 80%+ likely to be scum and Mirhawk is somewhere around 50/50.

The chances both coming up town with those odds are 1 in 10. I'm willing to take those odds. If my odds don't work for you, that's fine, but that's how I came to my conclusion.


Basically I'm saying that if Ranger is scum here, they aren't deflecting from our highest scum reads in order to get towncred (since she replaced into a suspicious slot). In that case, scum should choose the townie to kill if there is one. So we should lynch the other.

[podoboq]

So Ranger says we should decide between Mirhawk and FS today.

@Ranger: whose lynch and flip provides the most information for town? Is there another metric that we should use to determine who we lynch today?

How did Ranger suddenly become the town leader? This rates a

FOS

in my book.

Call it newbieness, but I townread the fuck out of her reads progression. It came off as stream of consciousness, with no barrier. It takes time to come up with lies that benefit scum, and frame your posts in ways that it's hard for town to pick at. Her post rate was too fast for her to fabricate everything, so I thought it was obvtown. Seeing so many people take problem with it, though, I've started to reconsider.

Reads list coming up. She's been knocked down a few pegs since the quoted post.

[podoboq]

beeboy wanted reads on a few people, so I just decided I'd post a read on the whole town,

On a scale of 1-7 where 1 is obvscum and 7 is obvtown. X is a person (or hydra) who I basically have no read on either because I haven't paid enough attention to their walls, or I'm just completely torn.

Of note, I scumread prolonged inactivity, especially when paired with useless posts and prod dodges. Sorry 'bout you, Snarky. Also, hydras have been hard for me to get a read on.

Amihan - 7
pistachi0n - 7
beeboy - 6
SirCakez - 5
Tammy - 5
Axelrod - 5
Sakura Hana - 5
tictac* - 5
davesaz - 5
Mirhawk - 4
Spiffeh - 4
Ranger - 4
Skybird - 3
True Ogre - 3
Friendless Seniors (hiplop/Errantparabola) - 2
SnarkySnowman - 2
dramonic* - 1

The Pied Piper (Plotinus/nachomamma8) - ??
Cerberus v666 - ??
THE WRONG LYNCH (Malakittens/goodmorning) - ??

This was super on the cuff, and obviously, all subject to change.

[podoboq]

On the upside, the prod pm has flavor in it.

So I think Ranger is obvtown here, but even if she isn't, what does it honestly matter for today's lynch? We were probably going to lynch Mirhawk or FS anyway.

I suggest we proceed as normal. If today's lynch flips scum, what does that say about Ranger? If they flip town, we can reassess.

In case this is some super complicated bussing, I'd suggest FS as our lynch tonight since Ranger is voting Mirhawk. Plus, this way we can get beeboy on the wagon.

VOTE: FriendlessSeniors

If there's a flaw on this logic, someone please point it out to me.

Oh my God I want to throw up

I wasn't given pause by beeboy, but this is making me reconsider. I still think the best course of action is to continue as normal for the day, and reevaluate during the next day. One of Mirhawk or FS is almost definitely scum, and scum!Ranger would probably deflect onto the townie, so why not move forward with the person who wasn't her target in case it's a ruse?

GUYS

DID ANYONE ELSE SEE THIS?

I REALLY DON'T THINK I CAN WRITE THIS OFF AS NOOBTOWN

IT'S SO BAD

Hey Spiffeh, I still see literally no problem with this logic, and you're not really pointing anything out to me.


As far as the Cakez things goes, I'm torn, because I was kinda town-reading Tammy, and obviously Cakez. I'm open to reassessing the Cakez thing, and if someone can make a (real) case on him, I'll consider voting their, but I still think FS has been the right lynch for a while now.

[podoboq]

I like how he's engaged with other players. He mentions things he finds scummy, asks about them, and requires that people justify their actions. That's how I play the game.

I like how he was hard on beeboy for the Sakura waffling, specifically.

Are you townreading everybody but dramonic and snarky then? Everyone else is more or less scumhunting.

Some players aren't actually following up on questions they ask, while as far as I can tell, Cakez is. However, you pointed out a good example where he didn't, in reference to his townreading dramonic based on meta reasons.

The kicker is that in general, I agree with Cakez. So while Seniors for example is engaging with players, mentioning things he finds scummy, asking about them, then requiring people to justify their actions, I don't agree with their line of questioning as often as I do with Cakez's.

[podoboq]

Ranger wagon is def a scum counterwagon to Seniors/Mirhawk. Like Seniors is just following Spiffeh's vote, it's pretty sad.
Axel - the only thing I'm doing are meta reads? The fuck

Well, looking back, you weren't doing it so much at the beginning of the game (which is when I was liking your posts). There were just a couple minor ones (#131, #149, #399) which didn't bother me at all. But seemed like starting around Dramonic, you started making reads on a lot of people based on their "metas." Dramonic (#733, #884, #1023, #1026, #1028), Sakura Hana (#1109), Swordsworth (#1112, #1328), Snarky (#1328, 1550), Ranger (#1364, #1412), and the last (little) one was Cerebrus (#1502).

That's what I'm talking about.

It's one thing to feel like you know how someone plays, but it's just lazy to write off someone's scummy behavior because they "always play like this", or to just assert that X play is their "Town" play. And it seems like your been doing that more as we've been going deeper, which is backwards from what it should be.

OK, this is the kind of case I was asking for.

I think I'm OK with a Cakez lynch today, after that. If nothing else, a lot of information comes from a Cakez town-flip, while an FS town-flip wouldn't be as beneficial to town.

[podoboq]

I asked earlier if you wanted a case, I can build one if you do.

I want a case. I'm asking you for a case.

[podoboq]

Wtf is the progression from 1756 to 1759
brb for case

I've agreed with scum before. Look at our newbie game, with Ness and I. We were in sync most of the game. It could be town with legitimately good opinions in line with my own, or scum with easy opinions to agree with.

I was using it as a reason to townread you, but it's not enough, and these last few days have displayed a lot of potential scum play on your part. Axelrod made a good case, and that put me over the line on you.

[podoboq]

As far as the Cakez things goes, I'm torn, because I was kinda town-reading Tammy, and obviously Cakez. I'm open to reassessing the Cakez thing, and if someone can make a (real) case on him, I'll consider voting their, but I still think FS has been the right lynch for a while now.

For reference.

If you're going to point out a progression, you might want to start it where it actually begins.

[podoboq]

Those reads were fantastic, I'm not voting Cakez.

I'm gonna go ahead and make a list of people I'll lynch today, in descending order of preference. First person deserves it most.

dramonic
snarky
TrueOgre
Skybird
Seniors

I've liked Seniors' recent stuff (I'm as surprised as you are), but not quite enough to get me off the wagon. I'm trying to keep an open mind about Ranger. I might end up going with this.

Also, I'm aware that dramonic and snarky are better vig targets than lynch targets, but best case scenario, they're both dead at the beginning of day 2.

[podoboq]

Why are you still scumreading Ogre?

He hasn't given me a reason to townread him.

Specific thing I hate: his vote against Axelrod. I've been a fan of Axelrod in this game.

[podoboq]

podo, thoughts on tictacx

I've mostly been skimming, and frankly don't have a strong opinion on him. It hurts that he doesn't actually have a lot of content. I'll go ISO him.

[podoboq]

Tictac what part of my read on seniors is fake and scummy?

The part where you have a strong read on a slot that hasn't done anything.
How is this difficult to get?

I really like this. Beeboy's bullshit at the beginning was bullshit. I'm glad Tictac called him out on it.

I'm actually in class, ignoring everything the teacher is saying. I've nothing to do besides spam the f5 key <.<

So why is this the first time we see increased activity from you? Is this the first time you are bored in class?

I also like this. I'm really annoyed that everyone seems to be ignoring dramonic.

This looks good.
VOTE: Seniors

Seniors>Ranger>pist>Mir

I don't like this order on his scumreads. I really don't understand his perspective on pistachi0n, and would like more explanation.


Yeah, my read here is mostly null. Is there a real case on him?

[podoboq]

Tictac is literally such a compromise I don't even want to consider it.

same

[podoboq]

So I think Ranger is obvtown here, but even if she isn't, what does it honestly matter for today's lynch? We were probably going to lynch Mirhawk or FS anyway.

I suggest we proceed as normal. If today's lynch flips scum, what does that say about Ranger? If they flip town, we can reassess.

In case this is some super complicated bussing, I'd suggest FS as our lynch tonight since Ranger is voting Mirhawk. Plus, this way we can get beeboy on the wagon.

VOTE: FriendlessSeniors

If there's a flaw on this logic, someone please point it out to me.

If you think Ranger's town, then you think she's not bussing. If you think she's bussing, then you think that she's scum voting her partner, so you vote the person that she's not voting because?

I wasn't given pause by beeboy, but this is making me reconsider. I still think the best course of action is to continue as normal for the day, and reevaluate during the next day. One of Mirhawk or FS is almost definitely scum, and scum!Ranger would probably deflect onto the townie, so why not move forward with the person who wasn't her target in case it's a ruse?

Okay, this makes more sense but here's what you're considering as I understand it:

• Ranger is town because effort and high resolution of catchup.
  
• Ranger could be scum bussing.
  
• Ranger could be scum trying to derail a wagon off a scum player onto a town player

This is true: Ranger is definitely [scum or town] and Ranger is definitely voting [scum or town]. But that doesn't tell us anything we didn't already know.

If you think the most logical option is that she's town, which I'm guessing you do because you started your earlier post with "Ranger is obvtown", then your vote means that you think she is town who is wrong about her reads. Why do you think this is the most likely of the four options?

So if Ranger is town, I think FS and Mirhawk are both equally good options. This is what I consider the most likely possibility.
If Ranger is scum, she is has narrowed her choices down to be the two highest scum reads of town (at the time). I think that this would be a play to get towncred. In this situation, let's assume that one of FS or Mirhawk are scum and the other is town. She would choose the push the town's wagon instead of the scum's wagon. So on the low chance that she's scum, lynch the person she ISN'T targeting, because in the case she's town, both options are equal anyway.

I don't think that Ranger is wrong about her reads, I just read Mirhawk differently. Either I'm wrong about my read on Mirhawk, or Ranger is scum. I think the former is more likely. I'm more confident in my townread on Ranger than my townread on Mirhawk, so if it came down to it, I would follow Ranger on this.

beeboy wanted reads on a few people, so I just decided I'd post a read on the whole town,

On a scale of 1-7 where 1 is obvscum and 7 is obvtown. X is a person (or hydra) who I basically have no read on either because I haven't paid enough attention to their walls, or I'm just completely torn.

Of note, I scumread prolonged inactivity, especially when paired with useless posts and prod dodges. Sorry 'bout you, Snarky. Also, hydras have been hard for me to get a read on.

Amihan - 7
pistachi0n - 7
beeboy - 6
SirCakez - 5
Tammy - 5
Axelrod - 5
Sakura Hana - 5
tictac* - 5
davesaz - 5
Mirhawk - 4
Spiffeh - 4
Ranger - 4
Skybird - 3
True Ogre - 3
Friendless Seniors (hiplop/Errantparabola) - 2
SnarkySnowman - 2
dramonic* - 1

The Pied Piper (Plotinus/nachomamma8) - ??
Cerberus v666 - ??
THE WRONG LYNCH (Malakittens/goodmorning) - ??

This was super on the cuff, and obviously, all subject to change.

Is your townread on pistachi0n based solely on her miller claim or on something more? Can you point to some other posts of hers that you liked?

Can you talk some about the reads you're having trouble with, saying what you like about us and what you don't like or what your reservations are that are holding you back from a more solid read? It's okay to be unsure; waffling isn't a real scumtell.

I've found that sometimes thinking out loud about a read can help me make up my mind or help me figure out what I need to do to get a stronger read.

Yeah, I'm townreading pistachi0n because of her (not countered) claim. Maybe that's the newb in me showing. I honestly haven't seen anything else form pistachi0n I'd consider indicative enough for me to read her, or maybe I missed something in skimming.

As for the people I can't read, this comes mostly from skimming on my part. I'm not reading everyone's walls in depth usually unless they're asking me questions. If I had to guess, I've liked you (PP) and TWL on the most part, and disliked Cerberus. I'm gaining more confidence in my read on Cerberus because of his attack on Ranger for switching between FS and Mirhawk.

I know that's not a complete answer, but it's the best I have at the moment. I'm expecting after n1 to have a lot more direction in ways to go about doing reads. In party games (which are most of my experience with mafia) we call this part of the game day 0, and people aren't expected to actually form reads of any kind. This part of playing the game is new to me, so I'm putting a lot of weight into concrete things (like pistachi0n's claim), and still learning how to get actual reads from more nuanced things.

[podoboq]

I'm with True Ogre on this. People on vanity wagons right now (including Mirhawk's) are not contributing to town. If we come out of the day with a nolynch, vigilante (or whatever the actual role is called) should hold them accountable.

[podoboq]

I've been prodded. Why aren't we lynching Ranger. Why are we going back to a dumb default lynch.

FS is not a dumb default lynch. Could you provide some logic as to why you're seeing it that way?

[podoboq]

I've been prodded. Why aren't we lynching Ranger. Why are we going back to a dumb default lynch.

FS is not a dumb default lynch. Could you provide some logic as to why you're seeing it that way?

Because I don't see why the Ranger wagon dissolved?

I haven't read in full but I generally don't like situations like this where the lynch falls back on the first large wagon. It kind of stinks of opportunism.

The Ranger wagon dissolved because we believe she's town.

The FS wagon is not a default wagon because FS is scum. A small number of town and probably scum, tried to push the Ranger wagon (which stinks of opportunism), and it didn't catch enough support. So we're still on FS, because it's the best option.

[podoboq]

Unless I'm missing something, FS is at L-2.

Ogre, can we get you back over here so that we can get a claim?

[podoboq]

Only seven hours left. Sorry if I'm being a bit pushy, but we're on a deadline.

[podoboq]

Yeah it's like 11am tomorrow my time and it's currently 9pm.

True Ogre probably isn't awake yet; it's about 4am there now.

damn it

OK, so I could be missing something but it appears that Tammy, dramonic, Cerberus, and Cakez are also on useless wagons right now. Can somebody please jump on so that we can put the pressure on for a claim? Or somebody from the Rangers wagon. Beeboy, I know you've been back and forth.

[podoboq]

Which part of the situation is what you were afraid was going to happen?

That we were going to go right down to the last second without any kind of claim, leaving essentially zero time to change direction if the claim (if it comes at all) turns out to be something we don't want to lynch.

Yeah, that's why these vanity wagons are anti-town.

[podoboq]

Or people could just unvote the Rangers wagon, and that would represent the same pressure as actually voting for FS, without the risk of a hammer before we get a claim. ^^

Intent to L-1 sounds odd. Is that something people normally do? I thought anyone who hammers without giving intent is understood to be claiming scum, so anyone who hammers gets auto-lynched by town the next day.

This is my first large game, so I don't know the etiquette here. As long as we put the correct pressure on FS to denote that we intend to lynch, I don't care how we do that.

[podoboq]

Which part of the situation is what you were afraid was going to happen?

That we were going to go right down to the last second without any kind of claim, leaving essentially zero time to change direction if the claim (if it comes at all) turns out to be something we don't want to lynch.

Just a point. In this situation, what does scum do? They fake claim something town is not going to want to lynch/something which might draw out a counterclaim. Once the timer got below 2 days, based on the activity of this game, there was no claim FS could give that would stop the wagon, because any claim that's good enough to stop the wagon is a great claim for scum to make to buy a day.

Exactly. FS can't really save themselves, but in the case that they are actually town, they can provide some last words before the hammer.

I would highly suggest nobody counterclaim whatever FS claims.

[podoboq]

For reference, a similar series of events happened in my newbie game. We had about two hours on deadline, and scum claimed jailer. Amihan and I pushed for no counterclaim, and lynching anyway.

[podoboq]

Oh, I should probably say something: I have knowledge of the existence of flavor which is tied to my own, which, mechanically, gives me cause to believe that that slot would be town.

If he happens to claim that particular flavor, I won't be hammering. Regardless of all other factors.

Just thought I should probably mention, since I know I claimed that it was guaranteed that I would be here(and I will be) but in that circumstance I *will* prefer a no lynch over knowingly lynching town.

This is highly intriguing to me.

[podoboq]

EP, you can do what you want, but we are by no means expecting you to participate at this time if other factors are pressing. Please don't strain yourself in order to contribute. This is a game in the end.


Currently you are at L-2.

I will not trust myself to build a case. If you'd like to defend yourself, do your best. There are a few cases I can point you to. I'll go searching and repost if I find them.

[podoboq]

What is fruit vendor? I would check myself, but I'm busy looking for cases against FS.

[podoboq]

I'm just gonna quote things I've seen said against Seniors so they have some direction to defend themselves. If you've already answered some of this stuff, I apologize. Since we're down to a fast deadline, I'm trying to work quickly.

Seniors is scum because

-Initial Snarky vote in 96 was terrible. This has been hashed over a lot but basically both players should have known Snarky is lynchbait and that was a terrible vote.

-263 case on me was a boatload of misrep, went over this in 275

-Podo case stinks in 479. Nothing there is actually scum-indicative.

-Basically throws a temper tantrum and stops doing anything to scumhunt in 651. 665 is another bad vote follow up.

-845 is a dumptruck of useless questions because ??? Trying to look like they are doing something is what I think.

-855 makes no sense. "Hard skimming, makes sense for him to be town" lol what

-In 1256, calls Ranger town. 1465 Ranger is meh. 1467 says "why us over Ranger", basically calling Ranger a scumread. 1474 votes Ranger
This progression is balls

-1615 - waits for three other people to vote me before actually voting. Looks like scum making sure the wagon goes somewhere.

-1639 - back to "don't want to lynch Ranger". ???

-1654 - discredits their entire wagon, calls everyone on their wagon shitty/scummy. Terrible reaction.

-1704 - back to Ranger after "not wanting to lynch Ranger" earlier and only after the votes started moving back to Ranger. Scum following the wagons.

Wheee done
mirhawk next

[podoboq]

we give wigs to people
people are informed they get the wigs
wigs don't do anything

...so we can easily test this by having FS target the most agreed upon member of town during n1. How do we proceed here? This seems like a bad claim for scum to make.

[podoboq]

What is fruit vendor? I would check myself, but I'm busy looking for cases against FS.

It's a role that targets another player at night. In the morning the player receives a message that they have received "fruit". Which basically just indicated they were visited by someone. They don't know who visited them, and the fruit doesn't actually exist or do anything. In this case, the "fruit" is a "wig".

Basically, it's a safe fake claim for any scum role that has a targeted effect that doesn't affect the targets actions, like a scum rolecop for example.

hiplop, shaddup. You've never seen scum!me, you have no idea. I love you man, but yeah.

Please explain this. How is it a "safe" claim when it's a role that can be tested? Sorry that I need a little carrying right now.

[podoboq]

we give wigs to people
people are informed they get the wigs
wigs don't do anything

...so we can easily test this by having FS target the most agreed upon member of town during n1. How do we proceed here? This seems like a bad claim for scum to make.

It's not great, sure, except for the conversation we JUST had about optimal scum play in this situation. The WiFoM is real.

That's what I was inclined to think, I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing some strategy here. More importantly, this doesn't correspond with the flavor claiming stuff you were talking about earlier, correct?

[podoboq]

I'm sorry, Seniors, but I'm having a hard time skimming for walls about you. I'm kind of strapped for time at the moment as well. If I can't find anything else, and you have to peace out again, good luck with whatever's happening. We love you even if you flip scum!

[podoboq]

I'm sorry, Seniors, but I'm having a hard time skimming for walls about you. I'm kind of strapped for time at the moment as well. If I can't find anything else, and you have to peace out again, good luck with whatever's happening. We love you even if you flip scum!

[podoboq]

I will HAPPILY vote dramonic or snarkysnowman. That way FS can confirm their role by targeting someone we trust as town.

[podoboq]

I'm not saying I'm town reading FS, but I think the odds of a town flip are lower than I thought they were before. I would rather lynch an inactive and lynch FS day 2 if their claim turns out to be bs. That said, if we're unable to get momentum on lynching dramonic on snarky, I will accept this lynch.

[podoboq]

I will HAPPILY vote dramonic or snarkysnowman. That way FS can confirm their role by targeting someone we trust as town.

Eh, Dram and snowman ARE better vigs than lynches, it has been said before and is a true statement. Lynches are for people who are going to actually fight back and have information flow in the event they're scum, not ones who the scum will just happily bus and give you nothing on.

With that said, I have no objection to lynching either. In a world of uncertainty, where two people I'm townreading are the lynches on the table, I'll gladly remove a lurker.

I've never played in a Rob13 game before. Does he like vigs? Is that a *thing* we should even be thinking about when we're talking about those slots?

At this point, any lynch other than FS will be one who doesn't have a chance to fight back or provide solid information anyway. It would basically be vig-ing somebody.

I have no idea if Rob13 uses vigs often.

[podoboq]

oh wait. Drams 1039 really sucked. podoboq, will you be around at deadline?

I will be here actively for the next hour. After that, I'm going to a Pacers game. I will be on mobile only, and very infrequently, but I can check in before deadline to throw my vote behind dramonic if that is actually happening. In case it doesn't happen, I'll leave my vote on FS until I'm proven otherwise.

[podoboq]

Fuck it. If the options are lynch FS, lynch Rangers, or nolynch, I'll lynch Rangers.

VOTE: Rangers

Call it flip flopping, I don't care. I feel like this is the right play with all things considered.
If this won't result in a lynch, I will flip back. I will not accept nolynch today.

[podoboq]

Mirhawk: THE WRONG LYNCH, Cerberus v666, SirCakez (3)
SirCakez: Tammy (1)
Skybird: pistachi0n (1)
Axelrod: dramonic (1)

TWL, Cakez, Tammy, pistachion, dramonic, and to a lesser extent Ogre (who has moved to Cakez since 1995), have some serious explaining to do tomorrow.

Cerberus, I believe, has already explained himself.

[podoboq]

I'm going to be here soon, catching up on other stuff first so I can focus here. Will move my vote for deadline.

You could always put pressure

before

the deadline, rather than contributing to a last minute scramble.

[podoboq]

seconded on the vote count

[podoboq]

Cerb vote for Ranger

Cerb has already explained why they are not going to do that. If you want them to vote Ranger, you need to provide some kind of argument.

[podoboq]

@Cerb: Let assume that Ranger and FS are equally likely to be town at this juncture. FS at least has claimed a role that we can prove the existence of. By all logic, we should lynch Ranger, and give FS the opportunity to prove their role.

[podoboq]

Like, Spiffeh, i don't vote my townreads. The ONLY time I've ever voted a townread was mastin, at literal deadline, like 1 minute before the day would end, solely to avoid a no lynch.

And she flipped town. And she wasn't a strong townread, like Ranger is.

:/

Which doesn't mean i'm right this time, but it DOES show you how unwilling I am to vote for my townreads.

I understand this logic, and at the end, you are making your own decision. I'm just saying that you have to pick between FS, Ranger, and nolynch. Between those three options, which would you prefer?

[podoboq]

Voteslave = Spiffeh sheeps me all day

NOOOO

If anything, reverse it. You should be Spiffeh's vote slave, because if Ranger flips scum, he was clearly clairvoyant here.

[podoboq]

The voteslave thing I mean

Ranger flipping town is a possibility unfortunately but FS flipping town is a certainty

Why are you suddenly less certain when it appears as though you might actually get to see Rangers flip today? :-/

Maybe because he doesn't have to speak in hyperbole anymore to get people on the wagon he thinks is correct.

[podoboq]

If ranger is scum, I'll also sheep spiffeh, because clearly I fucking suck.

pedit: Fuck that, display the true level of certainty you have at all times, don't posture to trick people and THEN try to walk it back at the last second. Either keep the posture up the whole time, until the flip happens, or never posture as such. Becoming uncertain when the wagon you were certain was scum is more likely to be lynched than not is weak evidence of knowledge that the wagon is on town.

In all fairness, that posturing has been kind of obvious to me, and is part of the reason I've doubted spiffeh.

If you're too big and too loud for your own confidence to match, why should I be that confident in your read?

[podoboq]

Ranger is at like what? L-2? We can get the votes for that.

By my math, this is correct. I'd like a votecount to confirm that, though.

[podoboq]

You mean Ranger is your STRONGEST SCUM READ SO STRONG YOU'RE SURE SHE'S GOING TO FLIP AS SCUM, right?

Because that's what you've been saying.

I think you're nitpicking here. Spiffeh has basically admitted that some level of his confidence has been fabricated in order to get his scumread lynched. That doesn't make spiffeh town, even if the play is questionable. It is NOT the important part here.

If I'm off base here, spiffeh, feel free to correct me.

[podoboq]

If we're seriously discussing the likelihodd of lynching Spiffeh here, then what the fuck. I can go ahead and say right now there's absolutely no universe in which you get 11 votes on Spiffeh in five hours.

[podoboq]

Ranger is a scum read of mine

FS is a town read of mine

I'd prefer to lynch a scum read over a town read

This is the way of the world

I read this as you implying that you did what you had to (overstating your confidence in your scum read) in order to get the lynch to happen. I apologize if I misread you.

[podoboq]

Who the hell wants to lynch Spiffeh wtf

It feels like Cerb is suggesting that.

There's no way we're getting a wagon somewhere else in like 5 hours lol Cerb.

It felt like this was you pointing that out.

[podoboq]

I don't think there's an excuse to not join the Ranger wagon at this point.

[podoboq]

You mean Ranger is your STRONGEST SCUM READ SO STRONG YOU'RE SURE SHE'S GOING TO FLIP AS SCUM, right?

Because that's what you've been saying.

I think you're nitpicking here. Spiffeh has basically admitted that some level of his confidence has been fabricated in order to get his scumread lynched. That doesn't make spiffeh town, even if the play is questionable. It is NOT the important part here.

If I'm off base here, spiffeh, feel free to correct me.

What is the important part here? And yes, it's a bit nitpicky, but in the unlikely event range flips town AND I die tonight, I'd like to be certain it was noted that spiffeh did some shifty shit at the last second here.

I understand your logic now. I thought you were trying to build a case against Spiffeh / inspire a lack of confidence in the Ranger wagon. It comes at the expense of actually getting votes on Ranger, which we need to happen right now to avoid a no lynch. That's the important thing.

[podoboq]

Like, Spiffeh, i don't vote my townreads. The ONLY time I've ever voted a townread was mastin, at literal deadline, like 1 minute before the day would end, solely to avoid a no lynch.

And she flipped town. And she wasn't a strong townread, like Ranger is.

:/

Which doesn't mean i'm right this time, but it DOES show you how unwilling I am to vote for my townreads.

I understand this logic, and at the end, you are making your own decision.

I'm just saying that you have to pick between FS, Ranger, and nolynch. Between those three options, which would you prefer?

This question has not been answered. I'm going to bold it.

@Cerb: Which would you rather happen: Lynch Ranger. Lynch Friendless Seniors. No lynch.

[podoboq]

As far as I'm concerned, a vote for NL is basically a scum claim.

[podoboq]

I'm also not confident in Ranger as scum, I'm not even sure I would put the odds >= 50%, but I at least recognize that NL is WORSE than a mislynch, especially on Ranger. Bite the bullet and make the hard decision.

[podoboq]

Leaving for pregaming now. I'll be checking in infrequently on phone.

Cerb, don't be useless.

[podoboq]

Axel, you town read me, right? Please read up and strongly consider hammering ranger. The alternative is no lynch.

[podoboq]

VOTE: tictac

I'm OK with this, but for the benefit of town, Cakez, you should make a real case.

[podoboq]

VOTE: tictac

I'm OK with this, but for the benefit of town, Cakez, you should make a real case.

In going through your ISO, you had tictac as a 5 on your scale from 1 to 7 with 7 being town. (post 1445) I don't see a case against tictac in your ISO. How about you making a case if you are OK with voting tictac.

Why don't you make your own cases? Who do you think is fishy and why?

I'm not the one saying tictac is scummy. Podo looks fishy here because he rated tictac pretty high on his town scale yesterday. Now he is calling tictac scum and asking other people to make a case. I've read through tictac's ISO. There's not a lot there one way or the other IMO. I also don't think that is unusual on day 1 in a large. But we now have flips to work with and it's time to get going. I want to see how both tictac and podo progress.

The middle of my scale was a four, which is null. Tictac was at five, a slight town read. With the flips we had, that has dropped.

Cakez immediately pushed tictac coming into the day, and as a result, I think he has a responsibility to build a case.

[podoboq]

Well I really hate this. That thing I said about focusing your scumhunting elsewhere....yeah.

I didn't really understand what you were driving at here; this was a response to Errant's push on Axel in response to his push on him. What about focusing scum hunting elsewhere and why is it scummy?

One of the things I was scumreading from FS early on was their tunnelvision on players who were scumreading them. So when FS went from reading Axel positively to negatively the second Axel scumreads them (for valid reasons), it set off a red light for me.

I think players should be able to scumhunt slots that AREN'T engaging with them, and FS wasn't showing the capacity to do that. This has changed over that last 1000+ posts.

[podoboq]

@tictac

I'll have to check back though, I thi she recently did the not claiming today as scum.

I think I did, too.

I can't remember which game (which is odd, I only have 8, you'd think I would but I don't), but I think I did. Maybe Machina?

Final thing before I go: {Tammy, SirCakez, beeboy, Amihan, Cerberus v666, The Pied Piper, Sakura Hana}
{Skybird, pistachi0n, podoboq}
{Spiffeh, davesaz}
{The Wrong Lynch}
{dramonic, SnarkySnowman}
{Axelrod, True Ogre}

{tictac}

{Friendless Seniors, Mirhawk}

The changes here are Pied Piper and Sakura Hana going to untouchable town, me feeling better about The Wrong Lynch (no specific reason why, just a general thing), and davesaz getting knocked down a tier. This is mainly because I feel like he should know I'm town this game. He's seen me as scum

twice

. He's also seen me as town many times. He should be aware this is not like the scum games, yet he is pushing me anyway and in spite of me answering his call, his vote remains, unchanged, with no additional reason and no additional response, similar to Spiffeh in that regard.

VOTE: tictac

I'm not voting based off of NKA (night kill assessment, right?). If you're going to accuse me of something, it's more sheeping than anything else. Confirmed townies scumread you. I still townread Cakez, and he's also scumreading you, so I sheeped him, and asked him to provide an actual case. If he's unwilling to do that, I'm probably unvoting. You have some time before this vote becomes that big a deal.

[podoboq]

Also, why is Marquis's name green?

[podoboq]

VOTE: pist
Back to this. I'll add claiming additional PR instead of claiming flavour to the charges. How the heck is that preferable?

Other news:
- In Cheetory mafia Amihan faked a guilty for reactions (while avoiding being explicit about it). She did this as scum. I wonder if the alt-switch was designed to direct our meta-reading to Marquis games and away from Cheetory :/ I've been writing her off as town from the gambit and I need to stop doing that.
- I'm unconfortable with how podo seems to be following Cakez around (latest instance her vote on me).

The arc of 1.scumread Ranger-slot 2. Townread her from naked reads seems scummy to me. Like he first wanted to scumread a player who is known for her reads and then wanted to townread her once he found out she was off-base.

Podo might feel more comfortable following a scummy path if he's sheeping a townie. I'm still witholding judgement on Cakez since I tunneled him day 1 last game and the things I find scummy here are the things I found scummy there.
- Cakez is right about me being less active here than I was in the mini. He was less active there and town. I don't see how he thinks it's AI. Nevertheless, criticism received. I will endeavor to put more effort in.

I'd like to point out that Ranger's slot looked scummy when the slot was inactive. When Ranger replaced in, and made good posts, I townread her. Oh, by the way, "....then wanted to townread her once he found out she was off-base." Was she off base? She was town, and you just said that Ranger is known for her reads.

I trust there was some truth in Ranger's reads. She had you pretty high as scum in her reads, so it makes sense that you would call her reads "off-base" in the same sentence where you say that she's "known for her reads."

[podoboq]

I'm so tired of these prod dodges. Vig shot the wrong person last night.

[podoboq]

Prod dodging and doing nothing with your time is coasting, but hey, whatever you say, dramonic.

[podoboq]

If you have scumreads that nobody seems to agree with (which you clearly do), how about making cases instead of......whatever you're doing with your time.

Or you can just continue to be obvscum, that works too.

[podoboq]

I'm not voting based off of NKA (night kill assessment, right?). If you're going to accuse me of something, it's more sheeping than anything else.

I don't actually find NKA scummy. I asked about that because didn't follow your logic.
Sheeping is indeed what I find scummy about you.
- Sheeping Cakez & asking him to make a case looks like you are avoiding voicing opinions of your own.
- Deadtown sheep would make sense from town-you,

but I don't actually see evidence if it affecting your reads

.

You were a soft town read for me before yesterday's lynch. Then Ranger flipped, you were a high scum read, and I consider you the most likely scum of her top three. Me voting for you

is

evidence of her flip affecting my read.

I wanted Cakez to case you because 1) I'm a bit lazy, and 2) I don't

know

that Cakez is town, and I wanted to see him make a solid case. If he couldn't do it (which he did), then it gives me more reason to suspect him. It was a chance to get a better read on Cakez, so I took it.

[podoboq]

Sorry Dram but Axel has some decent posts, case pls?

This feels like it's in the same ballpark as asking a desert for water.

[podoboq]

OK, so I've been mostly skimming for the last week or so because my semester is ending really abruptly and chaotically. I haven't had a lot of time to devote to the game, and I apologize for that, but it WILL change soon, and I refuse to replace out. We're sticking the course.

UNVOTE:

No longer confident in my townread on Cakez. I re-reviewed his case against tictac, and while I find tictac's response completely lacking, I think the case is lacking as well. Cakez should have focused on some points where he didn't, and put too much weight on other things which I considered kind of irrelevant on non-indicative of anything. That, coupled with the fact that a large amount of town are scumreading him now, makes me want to reconsider.

In the meantime, I'll put my vote somewhere I know it belongs. VOTE: dramonic. I get that he's a better vig target, but he's the only person I consider obvscum right now, so that's where I'm gonna park while I finish up some projects over the next two days.

[podoboq]

In the meantime, I'll put my vote somewhere I know it belongs. VOTE: dramonic. I get that he's a better vig target, but he's the only person I consider obvscum right now, so that's where I'm gonna park while I finish up some projects over the next two days.

Multiple people have repeatedly talked about and referenced games where dramonic does this as town as well. While I could expect a vote for uselessness, it concerns me that you seem to ignore those points and continue on with just calling him obvscum.

I know your play and I know you're not a shallow thinker. So what's up here?

Cakez is the only person I can remember making that argument, that dramonic plays this way as town. He linked to a game as an example, and I found that the play was different. In the linked game, dramonic was similarly inactive, but when he participated, he actually

added

something to the dialog. Instead, he has repeated his three scumreads, which I think are terrible scumreads. He's just scumreading the people who are attacking his play.

You have played with me before, and I assume you can recall my push on pignash. I scumread unapologetic inactivity very highly. And in that example, I know pignash in real life, and know he had a one-year-old kid he was busy with. I still expected him to find time to participate. At the least, you should be able to

add

something when you do participate. I was wrong about pignash, granted, but he was still a liability, and I think that game would have been incredibly easy to lose if he wasn't lynched.

[podoboq]

His responses in general feel super off. He sounds a lot more like he wants to be agreeable than actually trying to get something done.

That's a hell of a lot more than we've gotten out of him this game, and it happened within the first week. We've waited a week here and the best we got is this:

dram tbf you aren't really doing much

At least

I'm

voting scum

Whether or not dram is normally like this, it's not OK. I haven't posted much, but when I do, I at least try to offer something. I'm giving people an opportunity to read me, and I'm putting ideas on the table with reasons. What's dram actually offering to this game? If he's scum, are we just going to continue to not lynch him because of the fact that we know he plays like scum as town?

[podoboq]

VOTE: Podo Dram is actually just town this game, sry mate.

I have absolutely no idea how you came to that conclusion, and I'm legitimately confused as to how you can't see my logic.

1) I think that dram's play is unreadable by its very nature. I think that's a liability for town.
2) I think that dram's play and lack of contribution is scummy, and leads him to be an incredibly easy lynch in the late game. I think that's a liability for town if dram is town, and we should cut our losses early in that case.
3) I also think dram is obvscum based on his bad scumreads, providing no reasoning as to why they're scumreads, and not cooperating with town in any meaningful way.

Right now, any of those three reasons alone is more than enough to make me feel comfortable with dram's lynch. While dram is a better vig hit, I don't feel comfortable right now parking on anybody else, because I don't feel comfortable with the lynch of any other players without further review, which I can't get done at the moment. So if somebody gets lynched while I'm getting work done, I'd much rather it be dram than anybody else, because dram at least

needs

to be removed from this game for the benefit of town.

I understand if you disagree with any of that logic, fine. But I believe you can see where I'm coming from here, and if you scumread me for it, I'm honestly confused as to how you're drawing that conclusion.

[podoboq]

He shouldn't honestly be vigged either.

I suggest shooting between podo, tic and axel.

With the exception of pistach, beeboy's slot was my highest townread, and this is making me really uncomfortable with how I've viewed that slot basically all game. Suggesting that a slot as problematic as dramonic's shouldn't be vigged, and that axel and tictac who have contributed to the discussion and helped actually shape reads and decisions should be killed instead, is I think irresponsible.

Like maybe I get shooting me, because I'm kind of a newb, and I'm not posting a lot recently anyway, so I'm a liability in my own way, but axel and tictac should not be on that list.

[podoboq]

Tictac has not significantly contributed to discussion or shaping reads. That's an odd assertion to make.
Axel has some what but I have different problems with him.

Tictac has a hell of a lot more contribution than dramonic, and a bit more than me, especially over the course of this day. Him being a scumread doesn't change that.

[podoboq]

You shoot people who are scum, not people you can't read.

In my experience, you shoot people who are liabilities. Obvscum are liabilities. In the case that there is no obvscum, you should consider vigging people who are liabilities for other reasons. If there's a high chance of shooting town, then I'd rather shoot the player who is an easy mislynch later than somebody I have slightly more reason to scumread.

[podoboq]

You shoot people who are impossible to sort and could fuck over town later on. Snarky is a prime example of this.

Especially considering his naked hammer of town. Even if you were townreading snarky, that's the kind of slot you HAVE to vig. It's just too dangerous.

[podoboq]

Sorry Dram but Axel has some decent posts, case pls?

Sorry Dram but Axel has some decent posts, case pls?

*cricket*

He shouldn't honestly be vigged either.

I suggest shooting between podo, tic and axel.

itlepip, could you explain how Axel has gone from having good posts and you asking dramonic for a case, to being completely ignored by dramonic who refuses to make that case, to considering dramonic obvtown and scumreading Axel?

[podoboq]

These are the posts you're using to read dramonic as town. They all have something in common. Let's take a look.

Spoiler:

dramonic vote for PP w/ me please

Dram no vote with me.

If either of you can provide me with a good reason to ignore obvscum Axel, then sure?

The only thing this accomplishes is calling Axel scum without providing any reason.

Spoiler:

podo is probably also scum.

The only thing this accomplishes is calling me scum without providing any reason.

Spoiler:

Jester is bastard, whoever mentioned that.
Dram who are the 3 scum?

axel podo davesaz

The only thing this accomplishes is calling Axel, me, and davesaz scum without providing any reason.

Spoiler:

VOTE: Seniors

I am going to stop throwing hissy fits and actually play the game properly now

That`s a really short time to contradict yourself.

8 terrible votes on the wall
8 terrible votes~

want me to drive the wagon off them and onto you?

~M

A shitty vote up there or a shitty vote on me, what does it matter?

Dram are you townreading Seniors and Mirhawk seriously?

More than the other three by a large margin.

Almost the only thing this accomplishes is calling Axel, me, and davesaz scum without providing any reason. There is another nugget, but I'll go ahead and pull it out to look at at the end of this wall.

Spoiler:

You'll notice that two of my three scumreads are on my wagon.
HOW CONVENIENT!~

EDIT: I don't think cakez likes me.
EDITx2: I play like this when scum is running around being obv. Why the fuck would I put an effort in the game with three scums screamin around and being ignored?

The only thing this accomplishes is calling Axel, me, and davesaz scum without providing any reason.

All of these posts are super towny. His reads are relatively solid, he had issues with beeboy and cakez's posts, two people who are super easy MLs, and doesn't even include either of them is his scum pile. He's not in my townbloc yet but he's isn't that far from getting in there. He never should be a vig shot and super never should be lynched today. I'll protect Dram with my life if I have to.

Scum does NOT want to kill mislynches now. They want to save them for the end of the game. That's why they are a town liability, because at MYLO, the scum team WANTS an easy mislynch to remain alive. So the argument that your slot and Cakez's are easy mislynches, and scum!dram wouldn't keep you around in that case is completely empty. I'd also like to remind you that scum!dram WOULD pull out issues with two easy mislynches, without actually pushing them, so at the end of the game, when you are still alive, he can argue that he saw the scummy play early, and more easily argue in favor of your mislynch.

His reads aren't solid. I know I'm town, I don't scumread Axel right now, and I'm no longer convinced about tictac. I can see either of them flipping scum at some point, but their alignment is not obvious, and picking the three players he did as early as he did and not wavering is incredibly scummy. It's without logic, and it's proven without logic, BECAUSE HE REFUSES TO PROVIDE LOGIC DESPITE BEING ASKED TO ON MULTIPLE OCCASIONS, INCLUDING

FROM YOU

.

The only thing you quoted from him that isn't just throwing shit at his three supposed scumreads is this:

Spoiler:

VOTE: Seniors

I am going to stop throwing hissy fits and actually play the game properly now

That`s a really short time to contradict yourself.

Not only is this eight word post from dramonic useless, off base, and not used to support any meaningful dialog, but it's against YOUR SLOT, which theoretically you should KNOW is town. How could you possibly use this as evidence to read dramonic as town, enough to almost consider him obvtown? Literally everything you quoted is something that I see as indicative of scum, and you're reading it as town. Am I the only person that has a problem with this? Am I just a bad player, or is itlepip just wrong here?

[podoboq]

Oh yeah, for other people mainly.

The main reason that Podo's push is super scummy, regardless of whatever Dram is, is that he is super invested really early in the day in pushing a policy lynch on a lurker. The way town generally lynch lurkers is if there isn't a great deadline wagon people agree on someone with zero content and just kill them, you don't do that in the middle of the day as your top wagon. There isn't the amount of gamesolving that I would want from Podo.

In the process of responding to your last post, but in the meantime, let me remind people that I wasn't pushing dram. I just put my vote there as a safe park, explained that that's what the purpose was, and explained that I would come back to reassess the game later, on the assumption that we would lynch somebody else. I'm not expecting a dram lynch to occur, and frankly not seeing it as the best result for town right now, but it's better than leaving my vote parked somewhere I'm unsure of, and I like to always have my vote floating somewhere. This is a misrep.

[podoboq]

Why are you doubtcasting my townread then?

Because I don't think you have a valid reason to read him as town. I asked you why you townread him, and you provided a series of logic I disagree with.

[podoboq]

Just gonna snip out the highlighted text to respond to. If you want to read the full context, follow the link to the actual post.

Guess what, just because someone doesn't provide reasoning doesn't automatically make something NAI. Looking at what the read is and the timing of it can also give you a read. I understand if you can't read it, but

when someone comes along in a generally townread slot and says, yo, this easily could be town, I'm not sure why town would doubtcast that.

I can't tell what the highlighted text is talking about. I assume you're talking about how you, a generally townread slot, are saying "dram could easily be town." I'm doubtcasting that because you haven't provided any good logic as to

why

you're reading that slot as town, and I read it as scum.

As for dramonic's lack of reasoning, yes, it's alignment indicative, because he claims utter confidence in his read, and refuses to make a case for it. That could easily be, and I'm assuming it is, because he doesn't have a reason to actually think Axel is scum, and only has a reason to

claim

that Axel is scum.

Same thing but worse because its you.

It's still bad play to call a player scum and provide absolutely no reason for your logic. People jumped down Cakez's throat earlier today because he didn't push tictac, a supposed scumread, hard enough at the end of day one. Dramonic hasn't pushed any of his three scum reads at all, despite considering them "obvious." If they're so obvious, he should be able to communicate why.

I happen to be more turned off by his scumread on me because while he could be correct about Axel, I know he's wrong about me. If he's town, I hope my flip will convince him to reevaluate how terrible his reads are.

And it lets me get an inkling of a read on him.

Except what I'm claiming is that his post doesn't give you valid cause to townread him. Saying "I townread him because his posts are useful, and they're useful because they give me a chance to townread him" is circular logic.

Okay, that's just not how the game works. Depending on the size of the game, scum need to achieve a certain amount of mislynches to win, with certain roles such as vig and medic affecting that number. What needs to happen for town is to get a few extra scum flips early so that if we do end up in lylo its at worst a 5p and not the awful 7p which 999/1000 times scum just win. Even if you think Dram is 100% unreadable here, unless you have nobody in the game who you think has greater than a rounabouts 4/20 something chance of being scum Dram shouldn't be killed right now. All you are doing right now is again 16/20 times just lowering the necessary mislynch counter by 1 while providing town with nothing to go off of. You are either super lazy town that doesn't want to try to solve the game or just scum.

Scum needs to achieve a certain number of mislynches to win. If you and Cakez are easy mislynches, he can save you for when scum is getting wagoned, and then counterwagon with you. Town got lynched yesterday, and scum!dram hasn't needed to cash in on what you're considering an easy mislynch, when other mislynches happened without his contribution. If a mislynch is happening anyway, dram has no reason to push you. Also, at this point, I'd consider his three highest scumreads easy mislynches.

I think multiple people in this game have a greater than 20% chance of scum. I think dramonic's the highest chance, and even if he's not, he's close to the top. We should lynch scum here to win, and dramonic gives us a great chance of flipping scum, but on the low odds that he isn't, we can at least take solace in the fact that we removed an easy mislynch early. If dramonic has a 90% chance to flip scum, and Cakez (for example) has a 95% chance to flip scum, I lynch dramonic because his mislynch isn't as catastrophic. Note, those are made up numbers. I'm just trying to make a point.

His reads are solid in that I can verify that they are coming from a town standpoint and this feels like townplay to me. I think that you are fairly likely to be scum here, but even if you are town here the thought process from Dram is still towny. Town never have 100% reads, you can't try to read people based on the accuracy of their reads, but in whether or not the reads came from town or scum.

You can't verify that his reads are coming from a town standpoint because he OUTRIGHT REFUSES to explain how he came to his conclusions. That's so scummy, and the fact that you don't see it, or are ignoring it, is boggling my mind. You say that you can't judge people based on their reads, but the ONLY thing dram is contributing to the game is three, unwavering, 100% confidence reads. I have to read what I can, and that's all he's giving me.

[podoboq]

I think multiple people in this game have a greater than 20% chance of scum. I think dramonic's the highest chance, and even if he's not, he's close to the top. We should lynch scum here to win, and dramonic gives us a great chance of flipping scum, but on the low odds that he isn't, we can at least take solace in the fact that we removed an easy mislynch early. If dramonic has a 90% chance to flip scum, and Cakez (for example) has a 95% chance to flip scum, I lynch dramonic because his mislynch isn't as catastrophic. Note, those are made up numbers. I'm just trying to make a point.

Explain how Dram has such a high chance of being scum given that he is unreadable?

If I have to give dram a number, I'd call it something like 75%. Just for a frame of reference.

I'm getting that partially from his bad reads, because again, that's all he's giving me to judge him on, and partially from your terrible defense of him. I went from having you as one of my highest town reads to one of my highest scum reads it over the last couple of hours. Your defense is nonsense, and it has me convinced that you're either just fervently wrong or you're a scum team. I didn't necessarily want to lynch dramonic with our day when I placed that vote there, but I'm pretty damn happy about it now.

[podoboq]

damn it

VOTE: Axel

Care to explain this rather than leaving us to fill in the blanks?

[podoboq]

he came to his senses.

But voting for Axel. That's just a naked vote.

[podoboq]

I also don't know what GI is, and even with it, I'd like more of a reason to scumread a person than "could be scum" before voting for somebody.

p-edit: Looking up GreyIce.

[podoboq]

good luck, you can't use public tells.

I'm finding your posts literally hard to read. I don't know what you're saying "good luck" too, and I'm finding that GreyICE is a user. Are you suggesting that Axel is an alt of GreyICE, and if so, how does that knowledge bring you to the conclusion that Axel is scum? I'm just not seeing your train of thought on anything.

[podoboq]

Marquis is right. VOTE: Skybird

[podoboq]

VOTE: Skybird

GI tell is a tell that GI used against me one game and then taught me and now I use it. Basically I think Axel is approaching the game in a kinda scummy way/mindset.

OK, I'll lay off for now, because this is at least a bit more transparent, but it'd be beneficial to town if you could explain what that tell is.

[podoboq]

Not only is this eight word post from dramonic useless, off base, and not used to support any meaningful dialog, but it's against YOUR SLOT, which theoretically you should KNOW is town. How could you possibly use this as evidence to read dramonic as town, enough to almost consider him obvtown?

Okay, I want everyone to take a moment to read that quote and tell me what sort of town tries to convince someone of a read by saying "But he attacked you, therefore he must be scum!"

So I guess the answer to the rest of that post would be that yeah, you're just a bad player

I know that he bolded it for me, but I want to make sure everybody sees this glorious

m

i

s

r

e

p

.

Please do read it in its context, which dramonic somehow failed to include.

itlepip uses a very short post from dramonic in which dramonic casts a minimal amount of suspicion on beeboy as a reason to townread dramonic. I see a problem with this, because it feels to me like itlepip shouldn't read that as town. The problem is that itlepip (theoretically) knows that his slot is town, and dramonic shouldn't be casting suspicion on a town slot for basically no reason.

itlepip has the knowledge that his slot is town, which should make him MORE suspicious of you, rather than less.

[podoboq]

All that said, I'm glad you finally decided to contribute something real. There's finally something to actually discuss!

[podoboq]

NOT HOW THAT WORKS M8.

you have to realize that town make shit posts all the fricken time. Beeboy made a shit post and got called for it. I think that Dram had every excuse to pressure beeboy and make a scene and get that glorious towncred. However he didn't which is towny. A low content scum doesn't waste posts just to get reads.

We have different opinions then on the quality of post 759. Looks to me like a pretty damn useless comment on beeboy's play. There are plenty of more important things to actually comment on with regards to beeboy's play, but he picks out a post that's incredibly recent. Why?

Is it because he's lazy and not paying attention to the game? Probably not, because he recognized that the change in vote was pretty quick.

Is it because he's jumping on the opportunity to fling shit somewhere it might stick, so he can double back on it later for the purposes of a mislynch? More likely.


I would expect your slot to see that, since it was targeted AT your slot. More than anybody, town!you should see the problem that you're making me point out and defend.

[podoboq]

Not only is this eight word post from dramonic useless, off base, and not used to support any meaningful dialog, but it's against YOUR SLOT, which theoretically you should KNOW is town. How could you possibly use this as evidence to read dramonic as town, enough to almost consider him obvtown?

Okay, I want everyone to take a moment to read that quote and tell me what sort of town tries to convince someone of a read by saying "But he attacked you, therefore he must be scum!"

So I guess the answer to the rest of that post would be that yeah, you're just a bad player

I know that he bolded it for me, but I want to make sure everybody sees this glorious

m

i

s

r

e

p

.

Please do read it in its context, which dramonic somehow failed to include.

itlepip uses a very short post from dramonic in which dramonic casts a minimal amount of suspicion on beeboy as a reason to townread dramonic. I see a problem with this, because it feels to me like itlepip shouldn't read that as town. The problem is that itlepip (theoretically) knows that his slot is town, and dramonic shouldn't be casting suspicion on a town slot for basically no reason.

itlepip has the knowledge that his slot is town, which should make him MORE suspicious of you, rather than less.

That is...
so WRONG! <3

So......itlepip isn't town. Cool. That's kind of what I was expecting at this point anyway.

[podoboq]

I didn't say you were calling everything I posted scummy. I said it

seems

that everything I post

lately

you are finding scummy.

This is semantic drivel and you don't have a leg to stand on.

How about defending yourself by actually defending what people are finding scummy.

[podoboq]

So give me a quick recap podo. What's your case on me? If you have already posted it, just give me the post number.

I haven't made a case. In fact, I don't think I've actually said much about you. If you want, I'll go build one, but you can start by answering Marquis, since she started this push. I don't know why I have to point to you that that would be an appropriate place to start building credibility.

I'll highlight the parts I find specifically worthy of a response.

I'd be happier with Skybird than Axel; why don't you like the Cakez wagon?

Unlike SirCakez, Skybird isn't contributing to the game. Cakez at the very least presents a visble thought progression that reads similarly to his play in our Newbie game together.

But unlike dramonic,

Skybird keeps asking questions that don't lead into anything

. In other words, unlike dramonic,

Skybird is playing like she's trying to look helpful and like she's trying to figure things out

, while dramonic just doesn't care. Despite endless questions to people with no followup,

Skybird is also very limited on reads. And when she does give reads, it's when she's called out for it, and the reasons are either very general or just amount to "looks bad"

.

Spoiler: last Skybird posts since her pistachion unvote

Announcement: pistachi0n is town-aligned.

UNVOTE: pistachion

Because literally the only thing she did was pop in, unvote and leave. No comment at all on Pist being IC or how shifty that wagon was.

What's there to comment about? Pist is now confirmed town. I voted her because I have True Ogre as town. It turns out through Mod communication that Pist is town. I unvoted. Then RL intervened and I had to go do other stuff.

Dram, I think you are wrong on your Davesaz read. I feel he is town here. He hasn't been very active but he is reading the thread and asking questions.

You've commented on Axel. What about Podo makes you think he's scum?

Welcome Marquis!

Pistach, I get better as the game goes on.

What's bothering me is why you feel the need to talk about this at all.

You brought it up as a scum point against me. I'm responding with the truth.

After looking at last night's actions, how has that changed your reads?

Pist, I don't think you answered this yet. Who do you think is scum on the ranger wagon?

Pist, I don't think you answered this yet. Who do you think is scum on the ranger wagon?

Who do you think is scum? When are we going to all realise you're town?

-snip-

I'm having a hard time figuring scum out. I still think FS is scummy, but am concerned that everyone else seems to have shifted away from them. Their posting did change about halfway through D1. FS is smart enough to know that they were being scum read and to shift their comments to seem more town. I also don't think fruit (wig) vendor is AI.

I'm leaning more scum now on tictac. I read through his ISO a few days ago and didn't see much to indicate to me he was scum, but I also didn't see a lot to indicate he was town. That hasn't changed much since I read his ISO and think he could be scum skating by.

I apologize because I'm going to have to finish this up when I get back. Husband just informed me that we have to leave NOW to go look at a boat we are thinking of buying.

Welcome itlepip!

I'm not sure what you mean with post 2648. Do you mean you tried to read him and can't quite figure him out? Or did you try to engage him? lynch him? What exactly did you try to do?

who are your next best guesses for scum?

tictac

@everyone: I've been coming down with a 39ºC fever, hopefully this'll resolve soon, im not stating V/LA because i've already been inactive enough if it lasts enough to last past prod timer then i suggest i am replaced instead of prodded.

I hope you get to feeling better soon! Having a fever sucks.

Pist, I don't think you answered this yet. Who do you think is scum on the ranger wagon?

Who do you think is scum? When are we going to all realise you're town?

-snip-

I'm having a hard time figuring scum out. I still think FS is scummy, but am concerned that everyone else seems to have shifted away from them. Their posting did change about halfway through D1. FS is smart enough to know that they were being scum read and to shift their comments to seem more town. I also don't think fruit (wig) vendor is AI.

I'm leaning more scum now on tictac. I read through his ISO a few days ago and didn't see much to indicate to me he was scum, but I also didn't see a lot to indicate he was town. That hasn't changed much since I read his ISO and think he could be scum skating by.

I apologize because I'm going to have to finish this up when I get back. Husband just informed me that we have to leave NOW to go look at a boat we are thinking of buying.

True Ogre, I wanted to get back to you on this since I didn't get a chance to finish out.

I want to scum read Mirhawk but I am going back and forth on this read. Part of the reason I want to scum read him is because he is scum reading me and I agree that is a really shitty reason to scum read someone. I don't think he's right on Dave being scum. I have Dave as town. Most of the things Mirhawk has pointed out against Dave are him asking meaningless questions and not taking strong stances. But town is going to disagree on who we think are scum so again, this isn't a strong reason for scum reading him. I did like post 879 from Mirhawk. That really reads town to me. I don't agree with calling FS town just because they are a fruit vendor which Mirhawk is basically doing. If I was a mod this would be a great scum role just because most people do read it as a town role. I also didn't like that Mirhawk didn't seem to give any consideration to those of us saying Ranger was town. Anyway, this is basically the argument I am having with myself about whether Mirhawk is town or scum.

After reading the conversation between Cakez and Mirhawk, Mirhawk is moving up on my town list. I feel he has made some good points on Cakez.

-snip-

I still kind of think Seniors is town.

You're probably right. I don't think your wagon analysis piece was going to result in anything productive;

two town counter wagons doesn't really mean much with how the scum team was behaving.

-snip-

Why is this game dead all of a sudden
Spiffeh y did you have to die with your great activity ugh
For the tictac case - just look at his posts on the last page and tell me that's not scum.

While I'll commend Cakez if he's scum here because this post is pretty decently ballsy, this post also feels pretty incredibly fake. As I've said before, I don't mind when people read into dead town's reads and all that good stuff but following them blindly when you didn't really follow the player that closely the day before is pretty fucking iffy, and these sorts of "I'll miss you Spiffeh!" posts never really ring true to me.

What do you mean by the bolded PP? How do you know how the scum team was behaving?

In the second part of the quote, I agree with the "I'll miss you Spiffeh" sentiment ringing false. Put this quote along with the "I tried to save you Ranger" quote from Cakez and he just feels incredibly scummy today.

I'm caught back up now and I think it's time to vote.

VOTE: Sir Cakez

(Note: "I also don't think fruit (wig) vendor is AI."

What does that mean?

Did nobody question it?)

For example with going to a townread on Mirhawk, her reasons just read like things scum think sound good. As in, after giving basic reasons to both townread and scumread Mirhawk that anyone could have or has already noticed, she finally settles on a weak townread because "I feel he has made some good points on Cakez".

Nacho can you honestly tell me her play doesn't look like scum "scumhunting" based on... how do I put it, what scum objectively think sounds good/reasonable? And based on who seems more agreeable versus more lynchable? Basically her posts and opinions (when she actually provides them when people actually ask for them) just feel so fake, going with the flow of opinion against each player, and just... asasdffaskjhf. HER PLAY IS JUST SO APPARENTLY SCUM TO ME SINCE DAY 1 AND I FEEL LIKE I'M STARING DOWN SOME SORT OF ROBOT ALIEN HYBRID THAT NOBODY ELSE SEES.

I'm having an extremely hard time buying that her posts this game, including the most recent ones, serve more of a purpose than scum coasting and trying to at least do more than the laziest town, which may or may not be me/dramonic.

ALSO IN CAPS, WHY DO WE KEEP DOING THIS THING WHERE MULTIPLE PEOPLE AGREE SHE'S SCUM, SHE DISAPPEARS OR SOMETHING, AND THEN WE VOTE OTHER PEOPLE FOR ACTIVELY LOOKING BAD AND NOT CARING INSTEAD OF INACTIVELY LOOKING BAD BUT TRYING TO LOOK GOOD.

I just. am so frustrated by all of this. like maybe my all caps-ing looks kind of unnecessary to everyone else but I don't get how we always have this pattern of multiple likely-town players agreeing on a scumread on a player but then shiny things happen and wooo! town wagons instead and blahhhh

[podoboq]

OK, yeah, didn't realize Skybird's ISO was so short. Seems way too scattershot for my liking. I'm putting her as a scumread. If the wagon moves on Skybird, I'll jump in.

Marquis is right. VOTE: Skybird

I decided not to wait on you because I may be afk this afternoon.

I went through your ISO Podo and this is all I could find about you calling me scummy. The only thing here is you think my ISO is scattershot. What kind of thing is that to base a scum read on anyway? This is a large game with many people. Your subjective statement is pretty damn weak for calling me scum. Then you decide Marquis is right and vote me. Looks like a pretty opportunistic vote to me.

p-edit: I'll get to Marquis next.

You said you went through my ISO. You should see that for the most part, I only talk to people who are engaging with me on some level. There are quite a few people I haven't addressed significantly. That doesn't mean I'm null on them.

I don't know how you're getting "opportunistic" when you quoted a post from over two weeks ago where I said "If the wagon moves on Skybird, I'll jump in."

[podoboq]

This is subjective. I have been and always will be a low post count player. Look at all my other games and you will see that I never lead the post count. To say I have not been contributing is BS because I do have posts in the game and I do give reads on people, saying who I think is town and who I think is scum.

This is fair. But I'd like for you to respond with examples where you made a read that perhaps went against the fray, or contributed a read that didn't just look like following the flow of town.

Just because you don't see direction to my questions doesn't mean I don't have one. I have followed up on some of the questions and other questions didn't bring responses that seemed off so yeah, I didn't follow up on them.

I feel like you haven't followed up enough, but this is the kind of response I was looking for.

On the Wig vendor being AI comment. This seems really clear to me so I don't know why you don't understand it. I have seen both scum fruit vendors and town fruit vendors. Therefore, I don't consider it alignment indicative and won't be considering their role in my evaluation of them being town or scum.

Yup, I got this. I don't agree on Wig Vendor being NAI, but I understood what you were saying, and think that your belief is one that town could easily hold.

I have been very conflicted on my Mirhawk read as I pointed out in my post. At this point, I don't see enough reason to consider them scum so have them as weak town. Since you, Podo, agree with Marquis I am scum, why is it bad that I agree with Mirhawk's points on Cakez?

I think Mirhawk's recent line of questioning on Cakez is completely hollow. Specifically, his attacks on Cakez for not being active enough in support of Ranger. Being swayed by that is not something I'm very happy about, but the IC also was convinced, so it's not something I'm scumreading that significantly from you.

What strikes me as odd is that you don't comment on it enough to justify the bad read.

I agree with the "I'll miss you Spiffeh" sentiment ringing false. Put this quote along with the "I tried to save you Ranger" quote from Cakez and he just feels incredibly scummy today.

This is about all that you see with regard to a Cakez scumread today. That and "I feel (Mirhawk) has made some good points on Cakez."

This strikes

me

as opportunistic, because not only are you not providing enough reason to support the vote (which is what you're accusing me of), but you're voting somewhere you shouldn't be, claiming to sheep logic I think is faulty.

[podoboq]

I'm caught back up now and I think it's time to vote.

VOTE: Sir Cakez

Egh. This vote gives me the willies. I really despise naked votes with zero explanations/justifications. Especially on leading wagons. Skybird review incomming.

If she's town, and I'm pretty sure she is, I believe that voting the other leading wagon is the way that town keeps themselves from getting lynched.
I believe she had previously given reasons on Cakez, but am not positive on that.

I will address other things when I get a moment, in class, but I believe that vote from Skybird came

before

a wagon started to form against her.

[podoboq]

Actually you weren't active for the beginning of the game. You acted like a spoiled brat because you were being voted against. >.>

^^ yup ^^

Still don't want to lynch FS anymore, but I mean, you're not wrong.

[podoboq]

I wanted Cakez to case you because 1) I'm a bit lazy, and 2) I don't

know

that Cakez is town, and I wanted to see him make a solid case. If he couldn't do it (which he did), then it gives me more reason to suspect him. It was a chance to get a better read on Cakez, so I took it.

You thought that case was solid? Did you read my post where I pointed out all the misreps?

I actually just skimmed it. Went back and read it more deeply. I see what you're seeing, but I don't think they're misreps. It made me a bit more suspicious of Cakez, but not enough to flip my perspective on him. Just shake it.

[podoboq]

I can confirm that most of Cakez's summary is on point.

Welcome to the game, Dwlee.

[podoboq]

I can confirm that most of Cakez's summary is on point.

Welcome to the game, Dwlee.

you're not nearly as helpful as cakey was. What's w/ that.

Not claiming to be as helpful as Cakez. Just wanted to let you know where I stand in case it could be of any use to you. I'm unofficially V/LA right now with the semester ending up (and a bit drunk atm), but if it helps you jump in, here's a very fast readslist.

Town: pistach (confirmed), cakes, marquis
null town: true ogre, axelrod gunarson
absolute null: Pied Piper, you, davesaz
null scum: Seniors, TWL, tictac, Mirhawk
scum: itlepip, dramonic, Skybird

[podoboq]

Btw if my slot didnt already claim I am the neutral playwriter, at night I neighborize two people. My win condition is when I neighborize 3 pairs of people with opposite alignments from each other.
/s

either none of you get this reference or I am just reallyyyy unfunny

Mirhawk, pretty sure it was a joke. Also, don't get this reference.

[podoboq]

I know this won't make you feel better, but "alternatively" is correct.

[podoboq]

And with that, I'm going to sleep. I'll pop back in when I'm hungover tomorrow.

[podoboq]

fuck me I just realized that FS and mir are confirmed the same alignment. Mir still needs to answer the question but yeah...

You mean because of the wig thing? Not really confirmation of them being the same alignment.

[podoboq]

@cakes/itle/podoboq/tictac/whoeverelse: argh the colours thing inside other people's quotes is contagious. Today I am going to teach you guys how to quotestripe.

I only use my color to highlight things. I don't actually write new content inside of quotes. It makes it hard for people to quote the content that you embedded inside of someone else's quote.

[podoboq]

It's weird that she asks Dramonic why he thinks podoboq is scum in 2567 when she's been scumreading him herself.

It's weird that she wants a better read on Dram? I don't think so.

I

t

'

s

a

u

s

e

l

e

s

s

q

u

e

s

t

i

o

n

.

Y

o

u

d

o

n

'

t

a

s

k

y

o

u

r

t

o

w

n

r

e

a

d

s

t

o

e

x

p

l

a

i

n

t

h

e

i

r

s

c

u

m

r

e

a

d

s

u

n

l

e

s

s

y

o

u

d

o

n

'

t

s

h

a

r

e

t

h

e

m

.

I disagree with this. I townread Cakez, but still wanted him to justify his instant push of tictac with a case, even though I also had a slight scumread on tictac.

Also, you're right. The gradient is annoying. It's pretty, but it makes quoting you SO hard.

[podoboq]

It's weird that she asks Dramonic why he thinks podoboq is scum in 2567 when she's been scumreading him herself.

It's weird that she wants a better read on Dram? I don't think so.

I

t

'

s

a

u

s

e

l

e

s

s

q

u

e

s

t

i

o

n

.

Y

o

u

d

o

n

'

t

a

s

k

y

o

u

r

t

o

w

n

r

e

a

d

s

t

o

e

x

p

l

a

i

n

t

h

e

i

r

s

c

u

m

r

e

a

d

s

u

n

l

e

s

s

y

o

u

d

o

n

'

t

s

h

a

r

e

t

h

e

m

.

I disagree with this. I townread Cakez, but still wanted him to justify his instant push of tictac with a case, even though I also had a slight scumread on tictac.

Also, you're right. The gradient is annoying. It's pretty, but it makes quoting you SO hard.

If you highlight some text with your mouse and press quote, it will quote only that part of the text (and get rid of the formatting, but that's fine.)

I probably won't be using the gradient very much, though.

This is life changing news.

[podoboq]

Gah, stop making me post. I got places to be.

You and podo did not have the same case.

Your case relied on me knowing Ami's claim was false from the start. Which was impossible unless I was scum with Ami (which you weren't saying).

Podo's case was that I knew they were both town and was trying to get towncred (or something like that). I'd have to go back and look for the exact reason for podo's case, but it was definitely different.

You're messing up the logic.

The issue we both had was with your knowledge that the claim was false. That knowledge, logically, in both our cases, came from you being scum. As scum, you would know that Ami was town, and could logically deduct that it was unlikely there were two millers, therefore you knew the claim was false.

That is identical in both our posts. You simply misunderstood my original post, and missed how I never said you knew that from firsthand knowledge, but instead said it was simply a reasonable conclusion for scum to draw.

I, too, would need to go back and reread them to remember what the exact differences were from that point forward, but I definitely remember being extremely irritated when you accepted podoboq's reasons as perfectly fine, when they were in fact identical to mine at their root.

That's something very irritating to me in general.

Anyways. Go off and do your things. You misrepresenting/misunderstanding what I said has been handled for now.

This is, for the most part, accurate.

My problem with Mirhawk's reaction to the Miller CC was that it seemed like he was scum, who knew that the two must be town, maneuvering between the two in a way that would have given him towncred upon either flipping town.

[podoboq]

Yeah. You explained what scum motivation there would be for his behavior, why I explained why his knowledge of their claim being fake made sense if he were scum. I started earlier in the logical path, and you ended at a later point, basically. The most important part of the whole thing was the same for both of us.

It's not a very significant thing to still be talking about thiugh, and I don't see how Mirhawk could seriously be trying to use the fact that Cakez didn't elaborate more on something that, from the looks of it, only Mirhawk failed to understand, against cakez.

Right, I just wanted to make sure that Mirhawk saw me say that that is how intended it. You spoke for me, and I just wanted to clarify that you did so accurately.

[podoboq]

Cool. What are your thoughts on what itlepip just said?

Sounds pretty damning, and I made a mental note to go ISO him to confirm that what itlepip is saying is actually how it went down. Since you asked, I'll do the ISO now.

[podoboq]

OK, yeah, itlepip is right. That's pretty damn scummy. I don't see any kind of misrep.

I can see lynching Mirhawk today, but I don't want to abandon the Skybird wagon, at least not yet.

[podoboq]

PP, some kind of signature would be useful. I've completely given up on reading which head is which at this point.

[podoboq]

Podoboq double checked what pip had said. Do you think he also didn't bother to actually check into things? I'll freely admit that I never double checked the details, because I did remember your davesaz read abruptly disappearing never reappearing.

I am pretty sure that everything I said in response to pip's case is correct, so if Podo checked that stuff he missed a bunch.

I mean it is true that I stopped pushing Dave, but I feel like it should be fairly obvious to anyone who goes back to look at my unvote that I stopped pushing him precisely because I wasn't getting the time of day from anybody.

All I did was check to see how your posts squared up against dav. I said it's "pretty damning," and I stick by that.

I didn't see your response to the case, but I'll check it out.

[podoboq]

I think Skybird's claim is bullshit, and I want to move forward with her lynch. That role sounds completely bananas. I'm not doubting it exists, but I doubt it's in this game, and that Skybird has it, and that Skybird's target miraculously died during the night. It just seems implausible.

Maybe that's not a good enough reason to be unswayed by the claim, but I'm just not buying it.

[podoboq]

Does anyone know anything about this flavour?

I just read a plot summary. I'm not understanding how the flavor could correspond to "giving someone power." Oscar Jaffee is a failed writer for live theater. He comes up with a great idea for a play, then plots to trick a great actress into being the lead, and ultimately they fall in love when she sees through the ruse.

It's possible I'm missing some of that plot, but I failed to see any correlation between the flavor and the role. That doesn't necessarily mean it's impossible, I'm just saying that as far as I can tell, the flavor doesn't add up to the role. The lovers and hated made a lot of flavorful sense, so I think it'd be weird if this one didn't make any.

[podoboq]

I'm gonna go ahead and rescind the claim that we should vig dram. He's shown that under pressure he will talk. I like FS as a target here either way.

[podoboq]

If we're all just gonna name or fav vig targets, FS>tictac>davesaz>dramonic

This is on the assumption that Skybird flips scum. Otherwise, probably TPP is #1 in my book.

[podoboq]

tictac/mirhawk/mala

FS/tictac/Axel

tictac/marquis/twl/dave

FS>tictac>davesaz>dramonic

Everyone seems to agree on tictac.

[podoboq]

Or we can just stop talking about vig targets and let them do their thing?<3

"Hey town, quit communicating with eachother."

[podoboq]

If I wanted to stay out of 'twilight' I could have just not posted after I got home from class. Just saying, but gl oh that stupid accusation cerb

That's not an "accusation" and I think you know it.

This is reading like a small case of "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

[podoboq]

That flip made this game a whole lot easier.
VOTE: tictac

Also, Rob, sorry I questioned your flavor

[podoboq]

Who got wigged?

[podoboq]

BTW quick thoughts on Sky iso before I forget. Cake looks a little better, TPP a little worse, Cerb is more confirmed, Marquis looks a little worse but still in my town circle, and tictac + mir look worse.

How could Marquis possibly look worse? She started the Skybird wagon, and pushed it to death. If Marquis didn't push that wagon the way she did, I wouldn't have lynched Skybird.

[podoboq]

Also, Rob, sorry I questioned your flavor

Whoops. Should have actually watched the full musical rather than read a plot summary.

[podoboq]

Cakez, I have a pretty good idea where your tictac scumread is coming from, but they aren't scum. Axel would be a better vote.

How is tictac not scum?

[podoboq]

Cakez, I have a pretty good idea where your tictac scumread is coming from, but they aren't scum. Axel would be a better vote.

How is tictac not scum?

Do you have a reason for suspecting tictac other than the Skybird read (which was dumb yeah but not scummy)?

I basically hate all of his reads. The Marquis one is especially troubling.

I'm not a fan of the "You aren't pushing me, so how am I a scumread," argument, which he continues to use against Cakez.

But, obviously, the biggest factor is his garbage push to lynch TPP over Skybird. For that, I'm also happy to vote FS here, but I want to hear someone claim they were wigged first.

[podoboq]

VOTE: FS

@tictac: I'm sorry, I can't find anywhere you actually pushed TPP. I'm probably misremembering. It's been a few days, and you were largely inactive near the end of the day, so I might have just forgotten a lot of your stances.

[podoboq]

Ok so no, this seniors wagon is trash.
Tictac called marquis scum for their.skybird push, let's lynch them tyvm

pistachion

> conf town
me > town af
Marquis > the towniest
TPP > I mean, I still don't read TPP as scum
tictac > OK, yeah, he's on the wagon, so that's bad

Not enough to call it trash.

[podoboq]

Not the composition, but the fact that it even exists.

@Podo

I don't know what to say at this point. FS is uber scummy and you seem to disagree for some reason.

"FS is town because interactions I've had make them seem town to me" isn't really good enough to convince me otherwise. This post from Axel is something.

Re-re-reading Sky in light of flip.

She didn't give a lot of strong reads. True Ogre, davesaz, Dramonic strong town. TicTac and Mirhawk were kind of null/waffling. Her only votes ever were Friendless Seniors and SirCakez.

Of those, I think the FS one was the one that had a greater chance of actually happening. I don't think Cakez ever got over even three votes.

This is the kind of discussion you should be forwarding if you want to save FS.

[podoboq]

Not the composition, but the fact that it even exists.

@Podo

I don't know what to say at this point. FS is uber scummy and you seem to disagree for some reason.

"FS is town because interactions I've had make them seem town to me" isn't really good enough to convince me otherwise. This post from Axel is something.

Re-re-reading Sky in light of flip.

She didn't give a lot of strong reads. True Ogre, davesaz, Dramonic strong town. TicTac and Mirhawk were kind of null/waffling. Her only votes ever were Friendless Seniors and SirCakez.

Of those, I think the FS one was the one that had a greater chance of actually happening. I don't think Cakez ever got over even three votes.

This is the kind of discussion you should be forwarding if you want to save FS.

If anything, Axel's observation points to those two (Friendless Seniors and SirCakez) being scum. Skybird was being most careful to do things to get herself townread. She appears to have wanted to avoid getting on the wrong side of anyone who would be townread by a majority. Kingmaking Tammy (or trying to) was going to be her path to near conftown status, it certainly had me fooled. I think it's likely that her votes would be on partners for two reasons, both to avoid antagonizing town and to distance from partners.

Not saying both of them are definitely scum because of it, but I think they should stay in the pool.

I agree that this alone wouldn't exonerate FS, but it definitely is a point in favor of town if confscum was voting for you at a point when you were a real threat to get lynched.

[podoboq]

I think also that if you were town you would be a lot more worried about the little yes-man you've acquired.

1) I think this is a valid point
2) lol

[podoboq]

0. The point of this post was that podoboq wants to clear you guys because scum voted for you and that's not a very good reason to clear a person.

Whoa, I do

not

want to clear FS using that logic.

I agree that this alone wouldn't exonerate FS

I said outright that this logic alone isn't enough to make FS not scum. It's just that it's

a

point in favor of town.

[podoboq]

Why have we not lynched FS yet?

[podoboq]

Podo coming in, asking why FS hasn't been lynched, and ditching out actually feels really terrible now. He's basically coasting now and his contributions today are lackluster. I could wagon there.

I'm coasting because it was my finals week. I had lots of capstone to prepare for, and lots of capstone posters to print, because I work at

the school's

printing studio. This was hell week.

I've skimmed everything of the day, but just haven't had time to put together a post that I wanted to post. That last one against FS was a proddodge more than anything. I'm finally free, all the rigamaroll of school is done as of last night, and I can get to responding in depth to some stuff. Will build posts today, when I can work up the energy to dig into them.

I'll start with this: TPP is only slightly suspicious because of her implied reads. We have, like, three actual claimed PRs. Just give us your damn information and let us move on with it, or don't soft so that you aren't a target. We might have a solved game. The only reason I can think to vote anywhere other than FS is on TPP because I want her to just say what she is and what she knows, and a vote is the only way I can think to put that pressure on.

[podoboq]

Podo coming in, asking why FS hasn't been lynched, and ditching out actually feels really terrible now. He's basically coasting now and his contributions today are lackluster. I could wagon there.

I'm coasting because it was my finals week. I had lots of capstone to prepare for, and lots of capstone posters to print, because I work at

the school's

printing studio. This was hell week.

I've skimmed everything of the day, but just haven't had time to put together a post that I wanted to post. That last one against FS was a proddodge more than anything. I'm finally free, all the rigamaroll of school is done as of last night, and I can get to responding in depth to some stuff. Will build posts today, when I can work up the energy to dig into them.

I'll start with this: TPP is only slightly suspicious because of her implied reads. We have, like, three actual claimed PRs. Just give us your damn information and let us move on with it, or don't soft so that you aren't a target. We might have a solved game. The only reason I can think to vote anywhere other than FS is on TPP because I want her to just say what she is and what she knows, and a vote is the only way I can think to put that pressure on.

[podoboq]

I'm pretty sure that podo and ogre are still

god tier town

.
Along with pist and probably marquis. Those probably wont change after a read.
-ep (and everything above is also ep)

Why have we not lynched FS yet?

Podo coming in, asking why FS hasn't been lynched, and ditching out actually feels really terrible now. He's basically coasting now and his contributions today are lackluster. I could wagon there.

VOTE: podobq

coasting.

He's scum who planned in their nightchat that we would be the mislynch. He is comfortable. NO FUCKING REASON. for town to be comfortable right now

FS thinks I'm "god-tier" town. Cakez says he could wagon me for lack of activity. FS all of a sudden thinks I'm scum, and planned his mislynch over nightchat.

This is scum opportunism on FS's part.

Still not suspecting Cakez. Pushing me so I give content is totally understandable, and I think it's towny. Do wagon me. I'd like an excuse to actually claim, because I kind of think this game is solved if people round-robin claim at this point, what with all of the PR knowledge out there, and obvious town and scum still alive. Getting to that in a moment.

[podoboq]

This

is

their

buddy

If I keep pushing

that

, people gonna lynch me

Define "this", "their", and "that". Who are these people?

[podoboq]

hey, I was wrong.

About what, me being town? I'm just saying you went from thinking I was god-tier town to thinking I was scum, planning your mislynch since the beginning of the day, and the change in opinion was demonstrated right after Cakez suggested he was suspicious of me.

Seems cool.

[podoboq]

This

is

their

buddy

If I keep pushing

that

, people gonna lynch me

Define "this", "their", and "that". Who are these people?

this u
their pipes
that pipes

That's what I thought, I just didn't want to move forward under that assumption without you clarifying.

I'll start with this: TPP is only slightly suspicious because of her implied reads. We have, like, three actual claimed PRs. Just give us your damn information and let us move on with it, or don't soft so that you aren't a target. We might have a solved game.

The only reason I can think to vote anywhere other than FS is on TPP because I want her to just say what she is and what she knows, and a vote is the only way I can think to put that pressure on.

Why would I suggest wagonning my buddy, forcing them into a corner, and forcing them to claim their information, if I'm scum? Scum wants to conceal towns information. I might be new to forum mafia, but I know enough about social deception games to know that the scum team thrives when nobody shares their information. It puts them in a position where town isn't cooperating, and scum isn't expected to provide anything either.

[podoboq]

Ignoring the FS garbage for a minute so I can discuss other things that have happened.

Marquis is obv town, and if I'm wrong, I'll basically just personally concede this game now. Nothing except confirmed town having PR confirmation on Marquis as scum will convince me that she is scum.

Marquis says dav and Mala (I think?) are town......so, that plus pistachion, we have four conf town.

I'm inclined to believe True Ogre's claim, flavorpolice, right? So Ogre, you should have checked more than one person by now, right? Tell us some more flavor so we can just confirm you as town, and add you to the circle.

TPP has suggested a PR, something investigative, and I think they should just come forward with it, because then we'll have a circle of six. Depending on who people have actually checked, the circle gets even bigger. Seems like a good plan to me. Somebody point out the flaw here. Maybe in my skim, I missed something.

[podoboq]

Thinking on True Ogre's role right now; is mafia flavor cop plausible? If so, obviously can't include in a conf town circle. Still want anymore results you've received. If you say I'm from The Producers, for example, and I'm not, then we know it's bs. Rereading ISO now to see if there was something I missed.

[podoboq]

Also, thought: The vast majority of players seems to be townreading me very highly. That majority has to include scum somewhere. What are the chances that scum are treating me like town because they assume the new guy isn't smart enough to figure out they're scum, so I'm a town liability going forward?

I don't know if that's useful for anything, but it crossed my mind, and thought I should point it out. Am I actually just that easy to read as town, or are scum invested in me being townread so that I survive to the late game? Something to think about. Someone more experience than me figure out what that means.

[podoboq]

That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's unusual for newer players to own up to scummy behaviours bravely with an attitude like "yeah that's what i'm doing but i'm town so what." I'm not saying he's stupid, I'm saying that if he's scum, he's a lot braver than most newer players in their first few scum games.

I was building this post, then TPP posted it for me.

[podoboq]

I'm saying that maybe scummy players are people who are invested in reading me as town.

Cakez has pushed off suspicion on me, rightfully so, when it's been potentially advantageous for scum to keep me around. I think that makes him town.

[podoboq]

I'd expect scum to respond to accusations of coasting with "I'm not coasting I was busy and hey those other people are coasting too" not "yeah i've been coasting because i'm busy but i'll do stuff soon because i have time now"

I read the former as scummy. Town shouldn't be overly defensive. It's part of the reason I've suspected FS most of the game. They're incredibly defensive, and as town, I'm not heavily invested in being townread. Your win condition isn't survival.

[podoboq]

when no one has any idea who scum is and town is largely off base, yes, I care deeply about survival.

I mean, that would be fair, if it weren't for Marquis's god-town status right now, and fantastic investigative work.

p-edit: I guess it makes it worse that she's pushing you. I can imagine if the obv-town is pushing me, then I'd lose confidence.

[podoboq]

VOTE: TPP

Fuck it. The cat's out of the bag. You're already a night-kill target if you're town. Tell us what you know. It's in town's best interest.

[podoboq]

VOTE: tpp

either or w/ them and flubber

English?