Newbie 1988 | Octopus | Over

[Homura]

Hello.

[Homura]

Saw TSE and Phoenix as town while spectating. Will reread the game more carefully tomorrow; not feeling mafia right now.

[Homura]

- Leaning scum on TSE. If TSE is scum, we are playing setup A or B. #30 likely to come from scum within a PR mafia that is looking for town to hint that the Goon + Goon theory is wrong. Any town that knows the setup is not C would only know so because they are a power role.
-- Further, in my initial reading, an again in my rereading, while I agree that the usage of "mafioso" could be a town slip (LR is a new player using the lingo he is used to, if the official lingo for mafioso on MS is Mafia Goon, then the term mafioso wouldn't be at the forefront of a new scum's mind when referring to mafia), I highly dislike it being called a "sorta" townslip. Either he believes it's a townslip or not. To even call this out as a town slip is rather acute analysis, and as town I believe he would read it more strongly. As mafia, he is incentivized to avoid heavily establishing townies as innocent. The whole post feels artificially constructed such for the reasons listed above, but also so that in event of a mislynch he can come back and say he read LR as a town early on in order to try and get town cred.

Not convinced by your analysis of 30. I can see your rationale, but considering the context of the post (early game, barely post-RVS), it's far out to say TSE was trying spin Lunar's mafioso comment into a setup slip. From 30 and 35 it's evident TSE leaned on the latter of the two scenarios he presented, and therefore the wording of "sorta townslip" implies he didn't believe it was one. Subsequently, scum!TSE can't claim he read Lunar as town in case of a mislynch.

WRT 31, feel like you're specifically taking issue with TSE taking Titus's vote progression as NAI when both Tapioca and Phoenix also took it as such. I found it NAI and leaned town-indicative only after Titus elaborated. What's different with TSE?

[Homura]

What do you think of the TSE-Titus exchange in posts 164-168?

[Homura]

What do you think of the TSE-Titus exchange in posts 164-168?

Fluff with potential. In other words, TSE gets to be active without meaningfully contributing to the DP, and if Titus doesn't give a good defense, then TSE can go for the easy mislynch target of QQ and still not have to combat Titus later on as he's tied his scum!Titus read to scum!QQ, allowing him to stay light on his feet when QQ flips town.

Have you read TSE's past games, especially his scumgames? Your narrative doesn't align with something scum!TSE is capable of, and TSE townreads both QQ and Titus.

Think you're reaching.

[Homura]

@Homura, I am not so sure I agree this is outside TSE's scumgames.

He's been heavily complacent to questions and scumreads on his slot, like to your 164 and to Luciano in 240, whereas in 1982 he immediately regressed into AtE when pressured. Granted, this is only one of his scumgames and I haven't read any others that might have deviated from my impression of his scum meta. But I'm townreading him independently of metareads either way.

Your 168 seemed to imply that you considered TSE town from your exchange. Can you elaborate on why you think TSE isn't outside of his scum meta?

[Homura]

Re-read last night and digested a bit.

Think LL is hard-tunneling town. TSE is town. Cheeky is town. Titus is maybe town, but nebulous. QQ/Crush might be town, but I want to see content I can actually parse.

Earlier Phoenix townlean might be wrong. Lynchpool of {Karnage, Tapioca!slot, Phoenix}. Low confidence on most reads.

[Homura]

I feel Phoenix is seeping on you at the moment because you both are controlling personalities here. You two are my biggest TRs.

Can you explain why Phoenix is town?

[Homura]

@Homura, Sure I can. Be forewarned that I consider meta to be the weakest of arguments and I feel TSE is town, so feel free to disagree here especially. Others rely on meta. Each person has their own play.

However, I feel TSE is lacking a certain engagement and drive that he has as town. That's why I feel he's not a top town read. I still think he's town but not as town as LL or Phoenix.

Don't normally meta-read either but I made an exception for this case, since TSE's liable to make posts of questionable logic as either alignment. And think the lack of drive can be said for nearly everyone in the game and TSE feels relatively engaged in comparison, which is why he's my top townread. Cheeky's a townread for similar reasons but has some off-tone posts.

What do you make of Phoenix's 252?

P-edit: Bless you, Plot

[Homura]

Ok I've somewhat caught up, haven't really got the chance to really analyze everything but I guess that will have to wait until D2 or later. So far I actually quite dislike a lot of slots, of which I dislike Cheeky the most. Cheeky, would you say that you are someone that's easy to convince/too agreeable? Because you have voted for a lot of players D1 and to me it feels like you're trying to catch every wave that might hit the shore. Do you really think LL's post was that good to immediately let go of your Titus vote?

The Homura slot had a lot of posts I can't really place in the early pages, a lot of fluff and I also really hate meta arguments especially in a noobie game. Tapio slot had some questionable posts and seems also easily swayed. Karnage is still kinda whatever to me. I do like the #201 but I dislike the fixedness in his reads, still I've seen some town players do this in the games I've played years ago and since I still do like the effort and analysis LL is a town lean for now. To me the Phoenix slot isn't that noteworthy right now, which make the early TR other players have given him (before like pag 10'ish, I will have to look up later who exactly these players were) strange to me. The only minor thing I dislike in this slot is the seriousness he used in approaching my slot. TSE feels meh to me, I didn't particularly like the 'mafioso' thing and I think the constant formation of teams on D1 isn't that relevant, feels like a way to add to your postcount without really contributing. I like Titus the most aside from LL, mainly because of the early interactions regarding the 'gut vote' and the good cop bad cop thing.

So for me now: town leaning LL, Titus. Mafia leaning: Tapio, maybe Homura, maybe TSE but mainly VOTE: Cheeky

How is my making meta arguments scum-indicative? Especially when it was perfectly applicable in the context I presented it in?

[Homura]

Don't like this entrance in general. Half of your reads are nullreads and you're sheeping the main wagon. Your reluctance to take stances on your reads is off.

Do you think Phoenix's approach to your slot is scum-indicative?

[Homura]

Re-read last night and digested a bit.

Think LL is hard-tunneling town. TSE is town. Cheeky is town. Titus is maybe town, but nebulous. QQ/Crush might be town, but I want to see content I can actually parse.

Earlier Phoenix townlean might be wrong. Lynchpool of {Karnage, Tapioca!slot, Phoenix}. Low confidence on most reads.

Could you elaborate on your Cheeky read?

Feel she's trying to sort and has been the most transparent spot in the game. She's elaborating on her reads and answering questions. Significant in a stagnant gamestate where it would be opportune for scum to blend in. Reads are in conflict, but considering the lack of content from most players that's to be expected.

[Homura]

I think the rest of my reads are pretty self-explanatory.

What's your read of me, Cheeky?

[Homura]

I’m liking Titus enthusiasm this game.
LL had a Townie entrance
Phoenix is contributioning quite a bit. In a more Townie way then scummy.
Tap’s interaction with me felt Genuine Town.

Same question for you.

[Homura]

Karnage, what are your reads outside of Titus?

[Homura]

Sorry if I'm interrogating.

[Homura]

Is this valuable information? Why?

Short answer: yes, and I'll elaborate more once TSE answers.

[Homura]

Spoiler:

Fair, I suppose.

That’s fair

Ah.
Fair Point.

Fair.
And I’m actually not great at communicating.
I’m better at getting good reads/solves.

So you say you lean scum on Karnage yes?

Fair.

Fair enough.

fair enough I guess

Okay.

Think I've found my problem with this game.

Too much acquiescing going on. There's not enough energy in most pushes. Players back off too easily. Two options:

1.) Town are finding each other and mindmelding. Falls apart on a closer glance at the interactions I've quoted above, where Karnage and TSE in particular respond as such to players who are scumreading them.

or, more likely:

2.) Scum are taking advantage of the gamestate being in stasis and the lack of a coherent wagon to dissolve pushes and cause either 1.) a rushed mislynch or 2.) a no lynch entirely.

[Homura]

There's a fine line between obstinately hard-tunneling on a read and being completely complacent on a read, and the latter is far more scum-indicative. Scum want to keep their options open, scum want to look as if they're pushing but not actually pushing, scum want to seem town. The only caveat is that the complacency surrounding the pushes can be attributed to general apathy towards the game and has a higher+rand chance of implicating town. Reevaluating my reads taking that into consideration:

TSE — My biggest strength, if I had to name one, would be my ability to discern between newbtown play/poor logical play and scumplay. It's not something I'm able to articulate, but I'm seeing that crucial difference on the town side for TSE. My townread on him lost a bit of strength since I replaced in, but this is still the only read I'm even slightly confident about. Despite his stated apathy towards the game, see that he's still trying to solve and has reads.

Karnage — Didn't like a lot of his posts, nor his insistence on Titus elaborating on her theory, which I thought was already well-explained. 64, 70, and 147 in particular are iffy, and I'm not getting a sense of an actual reads progression, or reads in general. Dislike the lack of a response to my 295. The caveat might apply more for Karnage here, however; feel like the apathy comes more from town!Karnage and that scum!Karnage would effort a bit more.

Ph0enix — 16 feels like an awkward LAMIST attempt to take the game out of RVS — what was Titus supposed to make of it? 47 and 65 are fluff, and I dislike his fixation on QQ's slot. Didn't like the reaction to Luciano in 252 and the vote. 302 feels shade-y on my slot, but even if unintentional was an odd question to ask. WRT the Luciano-Phoenix interaction, Phoenix never elaborated on why he's not able to see Luciano's push objectively from a town POV. The last "okay" is the worst offender of my complacency theory. He evidently considers Luciano his biggest scumread to the point of wanting him to be the lynch in 356, but not enough to push him? There's also a lack of a read progression on any other slot as well, similar to Karnage.

[Homura]

VOTE: Ph0enix

Prefer to go here today.

[Homura]

I don't mafia lean your slot because of meta arguments, I just don't like meta arguments. Especially not in a newbie game because I, and probably more people, have never played with players in said meta read. I can't evaluate meta based arguments because I have no indication of their meta, so for me meta arguments contribute null to the game. The main reason I lean mafia on your slot are the posts made by LunarRest regarding the Titus vote switch after RVS, it seemed like she was reaching for the sky. I dislike the entire theatre around that vote switch.

Run that through me again. I wasn't present during LunarRest interactions. Have you mistaken me for their slot?

[Homura]

Also about the first part of #291 , I don't think most of my reads are null since I do lean (if only slightly) on most players. If you would interpret that as me null reading everyone that's fine, but don't expect me to develop all in reads D1 like LL does. I would also like to remind you that my vote on Cheeky made that wagon the leading one, I could also have voted for the equally big TSE and LL wagons.

Spoiler:

Karnage is still kinda whatever to me

TSE feels meh to me

To me the Phoenix slot isn't that noteworthy right now

Saw these as nullreads. You did elaborate on some of them, but I find it strange that you scumlean me over them from your explanations. Especially considering it amounted to "I don't like meta arguments" and something I wasn't even present for.

WRT the leading wagons — pressure was on Cheeky from Titus when you repped in, so I saw that as a sheep. My vote had also been a dead vote, so the Luciano wagon isn't applicable. Can you elaborate which direction your leans are on for the reads I quoted?

[Homura]

"16 feels like an awkward LAMIST attempt to take the game out of RVS"

So what's the problem with that?

It's in the quote.

I didn't want a vote you possibly don't know is there be there, what's so strange about it?

Why do you care where my vote is, especially on a wagon no one else was on?

His push is opportunistic. So what if I'm playing differently from another Town game of mine? And the statement that everything that is not reads equals not contributing, it's just - what???

How it was opportunistic? Luciano was the only player to scumread you at that point — you were the biggest general TR by everyone else. Opportunistic would be if Luciano jumped on you for little cause just to scumread you, but he expressed a scumread even before your reaction vote and your argument.

How have I not pushed him, exactly?

Because throughout your interaction with Luciano, you haven't once attempted a push back. You've only defended yourself the entire time. You obviously scumread him, so why aren't you pushing him? Why did you back off when he did even though you're scumreading him?

[Homura]

players are encouraging pointless spam wall fights and ignoring the townies who say it needs to stop. Just saying.

Cheeky and Karnage are good votes.

Gathering you don’t think much of my theory. I’m not too confident on it myself, since I feel I could just be jumping on town who didn’t want to play. Can you case Cheeky for me?

[Homura]

UNVOTE:

Need to reevaluate.

[Homura]

@Plot, what's the policy for a deadline extension?

[Homura]

VOTE: titus
d1 scumlean, scummy unvote, never did the se voice thing either

titus did put on an se hat after all, missed it

Is this town-indicative for Titus?

[Homura]

What are your reads, Karnage?

[Homura]

never played with titus so idk if the se thing is town indicative
it's just that I found it odd that she hadn't done something she said she'd do

Do consider the SE hat more town-indicative, but since then she's changed her tone.

[Homura]

Titus, don't misunderstand what I'm about to say. I want to believe you're town, but I don't like how you shut down my theory and flat-out refused to case Cheeky when I asked you to. Which should be the bare minimum if you want to push a counterwagon in opposition of a wagon you staunchly disliked. You proceeded to call my and LL's push on Phoenix as "poor townplay," then voted for Phoenix's wagon instead of convincing players to vote for your preferred Cheeky wagon.

I admit that I'm a player not quite at the standard I'd like to be, but I'm trying to improve. If you're town, all I ask is that you help me see where you're at.

[Homura]

I know my theory is poorly-constructed. But it's all I've got, because if I'm honest with you, I haven't had a clue how to approach this game. That's why I'm asking you to case your reads, because you're more experienced than the rest of us and feel you'd be really helpful if you wanted to be.

[Homura]

If I need to be the lynch I'm ok with that in order to avoid a no lynch

Don't think scum!Karnage says this, but he's mentally left the game either way if his lack of response to requests for reads indicates anything.

Intent to hammer in ~6 hours, or someone else can do so to squeeze as much time out of the deadline as possible.

[Homura]

Do not expect my reads to be better or more accurate because I am an IC. I prefer to keep my hands off D1 and asses what happened and why. Early game is my weakest point.

Day 1 is less about being right but observing the motivations of people imo. To me, if I get the best out of town, we win, even if my reads aren't so hot.

If that's your meta, I'll take your word for it. But I'd rather not stake a lynch on an unsubstantiated tonal read for now.

What do you think of Karnage's EoD posts?

[Homura]

Wooper, when you're done, thoughts on Titus's SR of your slot?

[Homura]

non why did you hammer your townread before deadline while i was still catching up?

Does town!Non lolhammer like that?

[Homura]

My curious thing is why the votes switched to Karnage and not LL if the bulk of the votes were because of Phoenix v LL bogging up the thread?

Happy birthday!

Can't parse your question. Karnage was the leading scumread, Luciano the leading townread. The Luciano-Ph0enix interaction factored little into my intent on Karnage. Why do you think Luciano should have been the wagon?

[Homura]

Homura-chan...if walpurgisnacht comes and kills all the other towneis... let's go back to day one together to save madoka and save the world...

You're breaking my heart.

P-edit: Fair. I'm kind of in a weird place WRT sorting everyone myself.

[Homura]

What do you think of TSE's sheep on the Ph0enix wagon yesterday?

[Homura]

Kind of on the fence about it. On one hand, I generally trust my gut for players like TSE, but feel now that I may have gotten the wrong impression of him.

Like, I see what you mean about his town and scumrange being broad, but looking at the timing of his vote on Ph0enix it felt a lot more beneficial for scum!TSE? Both Luciano and I were pushing Ph0enix and his reasoning for his sheep vote amounted to wanting Ph0enix as a policy lynch. 403 felt like he was townspewing Ph0enix despite his subsequent vote on him. Find it hard to see that vote coming from a town-motivated perspective.

[Homura]

I agree. I kinda want to sort LL and Nom for VCA reasons.

I strongly feel TSE was being a town asshole yesterday.

I still feel Homura is town.

Where do you stand on the Cheeky slot, Titus?

[Homura]

Tse was very much against the environment that LL vs Phoenix is bringing into the game. He believes it favors mafia, especially if both sides are town. I'm not a big fan of it myself, but I see that it makes sense, reading through LL vs Phoenix was a chore to me.

I'm not a fan of voting for a player I was reading as town just because they'll end up clashing with another player I also read as town. Can't see the town!TSE motivation — town doesn't advocate for a flimsily-reasoned policy lynch at that stage of the game, but scum!TSE benefits.

[Homura]

ceejay, can I have a readslist from you?

[Homura]

Titus is my biggest question mark. Concur with wanting her sorted today.

[Homura]

Let’s put it this way: there are enough people townreading you that I’m not really interested in brute forcing your lynch over all else because I’m not confident enough that I’m right and they’re all wrong. THAT SAID I do feel v good about wooper!scum (admittedly mostly based on cheeky’s play > his direct play) and am willing to push that pretty hard, and if he does flip scum then I will be lynching you tomorrow literally 100% of the time if I’m still alive

What about Wooper's direct play was scummy, Mena?

[Homura]

The gang's all here, I'm excited!

[Homura]

Why was karnage lynched?

so like reading back he kinda just didn't seem to have been townread and people flash compromised on him after ph0enix claimed jailkeeper and the ph wagon fell to pieces

ngl i wanted your slot eod but we had like two (2) votes for it and then non just lolhammered karnage

so

deadline compromise lynch

This is true. This doesn't explain why Karnage over Cheeky or LL as the deadline lynch or why we got into that spot despite me fighting it.

I'm still not understanding why you're stuck on this point, Titus. Karnage was the compromise lynch because he was the secondmost scumread. You actually

led

the wagon on Karnage, but now you're hung up on why everyone else agreed with you. If you wanted Cheeky or Luciano as the compromise deadline lynch over Karnage, why didn't you vote one of them intead?

[Homura]

I'm still not understanding why you're stuck on this point, Titus. Karnage was the compromise lynch because he was the secondmost scumread. You actually led the wagon on Karnage, but now you're hung up on why everyone else agreed with you. If you wanted Cheeky or Luciano as the compromise deadline lynch over Karnage, why didn't you vote one of them intead?

Because this is making me feel you knew Karnage would flip green and wanted to cast shade on both of your scumreads for not being wagoned.

Am I misunderstanding your intentions here?

[Homura]

Also, what's your read on Menalque?

[Homura]

ELI5 why TSE is suddenly (almost) universally town read?

[Homura]

No I think p25 and p26 CJV is pretty towny, but when I factor TSE in the slot is still net. red for me. That's why I'm interested in hearing why TSE = green.

This is always town.

[Homura]

@Homura, what's your town block looking like atm?

{Crush, Luciano, Wooper}, in that order.

[Homura]

@Homura, what's your town block looking like atm?

{Crush, Luciano, Wooper}, in that order.

convince me on crush

It's less his play being individually towny (though that factors in it as well), and more that he's on the same mindmeld as me WRT the TSE/ceejay read. He gave voice to a lot of thoughts I wasn't able to vocalize, like 572. In retrospect, I also feel his admittance to mixing up me and LunarRest was town-indicative as well.

[Homura]

All good. Take care of yourself.

[Homura]

what I said was that the story of how LL is presenting those reads does not make sense nor do his actions if those reads are that strong

if LL on D1 was super confident in phoenix scum (he was) then that confidence should have been shaken by being wrong (it wasn't) but given that it wasn't then he should still be arrogantly overconfident in his wrongness (he is) in which case he doesn't need to sort the other slots he just needs them to vote for scum (he was trying to look like he wanted to sort them)

that story does not make sense from a town mindset

@Luciano, can I hear your thoughts on this?

[Homura]

Do you agree that reads don't get pushed if the player pushing them falters on those reads?

[Homura]

I worded it poorly. Apologies. I meant to ask if you agree that a player who does not exhibit confidence on their reads cannot truly push them.

[Homura]

I ask because I have played with players in the past who fake or force confidence in their reads in order to guide a push as town. I had the impression that you were such a player, and that your overconfidence was not scum-indicative as Menalque believes it to be.

[Homura]

I agree. You are town.

[Homura]

Going through them.

Mafia really inflates my browser's tabs.

[Homura]

Feel free to talk while we're both here, though. I prefer engaging in real time over combing pages of wallposts.

General thoughts on the Menalque-Wooper interaction?

[Homura]

The thousandth post is mine.

[Homura]

In 513?

[Homura]

Are you referring to Non's post about Karnage?

[Homura]

I'm still not understanding why you're stuck on this point, Titus. Karnage was the compromise lynch because he was the secondmost scumread. You actually led the wagon on Karnage, but now you're hung up on why everyone else agreed with you. If you wanted Cheeky or Luciano as the compromise deadline lynch over Karnage, why didn't you vote one of them intead?

Because this is making me feel you knew Karnage would flip green and wanted to cast shade on both of your scumreads for not being wagoned.

Am I misunderstanding your intentions here?

I totally disagree that cheeky THIS GAME is being vexing as opposed to appeasing

I think cheeky THIS GAME was intentionally trying to play nice and get people on side. which you yourself would admit is scum behaviour from her, only you're trying to argue that I'm scum reading her for being scummy when it's almost the opposite?

I think cheeky would be hard to push for being scummy which is exactly why I think she is scummy

if I'm not as interested in reading you, it's because I think your slot, which you share the alignment of, has already been insanely scummy. why would I spend a lot of time trying to sort you directly especially when if given half the chance you would pocket me. added to the fact that I don't think you're engaging me in particularly good faith. I'm trying to parse things because I'm still hoping we Lynch you today bc on the off chance it's wrong then lynching you tomorrow would just lose the game, but I would wanna see why your head was at where it was it today if you flipped town

You didn't mean to quote me, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this regardless.

[Homura]

Nope. Non's post caught Karnage's breadcrumb of "no claim". I don't know where Mena got mason from. The most interesting point about Non's post if, based on my limited exposure to him, I doubt he would have caught that. I think it's more likely Titus fed it to him.

I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility that Non caught it himself, since he appears to be a regular, but that's NAI.

[Homura]

H

ow is this misunderstanding happening with a player who has a join date older than mine unless it is a perspective slip?

I'm not sure on this and I kinda want backup.

I think this frustration reads as town. also, actually, the seeking of clarification from others on if her perception of it is accurate. I think it's very strange for you in particular to not see this as town!indicative

Are we reading the same post?

@Cheeky, I have a theory I'm looking to test. If something changes my mind on that, I'll let you know.

Second, it is early so I am open to being wrong. That doesn't mean I'm open to baseless attacks for being protown.

You know based on my meta that I am stronger in later days too. You're perfectly free to ignore any theory you find baseless and scumhunt, if you're capable.

being very reasonable and trying to make sure the gamestate stays manageable / positive

The theory never came to fruition. What do you make of the tone change Titus exhibited later in the day?

@LL, I like your entry.

Can you elaborate on why Cheeky is town? I don't see it.

again, I think this is Titus checking for bias in her own reads and I think you should see it in particular as town!indicative

I read it differently. "I don't see it" particularly indicates that she's staunch on her reads and has the underlying implication that it would take an exceptional effort to change her mind. Luciano expended that effort, but Titus dismissed his case entirely, calling Cheeky's aggressiveness NAI, but never explains why she took it as scum-indicative.

Menalque, can you case Titus's EoD play?

[Homura]

I think we really should flip you today but if we don't and you consider me town who is scum?

i think crush is scum and has highest partner equity with u

Hot take. Why?

[Homura]

I still find 635 to be the fakest distancing attempt I have seen in my life. Titus voted Non less than an hour before his prod expired and would be replaced. This is the easiest SvS vote anyone could ever be faced with. Start the wagon against a scum buddy who is literally both being FOS'd

and

being replaced as you place the vote, then unvote them for no reason once they are replaced, a la 742.

The Non vote did ping me as odd, especially since the rest of her post was completely unrelated to Non. Every part of her post should've pointed to a vote on Wooper.

P-edit: The gang's half here.

[Homura]

Where's the O being replaced?

"opeming"

[Homura]

homura, what do you think is town from LL?

All in my ISO.

[Homura]

can you explain it in the simplest possible terms to me now directly please

@Homura, what's your town block looking like atm?

{Crush, Luciano, Wooper}, in that order.

[Homura]

I am saying that I think the most likely scum is (you, wooper) but that I could also see homura or

Titus as scum because I'm not town reading either of them

Why the discrepancy?

[Homura]

I think my thoughts are already there

Was asking for your thoughts on my post. Your response indicated that you did not mean to quote it and was responding to Wooper.

[Homura]

what discrepancy?

You were townreading Titus.

[Homura]

(1) oh, wonderful, you're one of those players. this is actually mildly frustrating because it makes me a bit less sure on scum!you -- I'd probably force through your lynch if I wasn't in this slot because I deal very badly with players who are (a) very arrogant (b) very wrong (c) incapable of acknowledging a or b

This does slightly lessen my townread on Luciano a bit, actually.

P-edit: You two are mirroring each other.

[Homura]

not exactly.

I have a proven record on site, which you know and both Titus/wooper can confirm if they so wish.

I've deliberately been incredibly measured and reasonable here, which at the very least wooper can confirm

I did not mean to imply that you were otherwise and I apologize if I came off that way.

Slightly related, though, it's been half a year since I last participated in a game with you (other than the last Newbie), so you'll forgive me if I cannot read you as well. Do you think you're outside of your scumrange this game?

[Homura]

seriously, how tf does anyone look at my ISO and say "you aren't trying to scumhunt" when the point you're making is that I said that homura or Titus could be possible scum in a hypothetical where you

specifically asked me to exclude you being scum

how is that good faith, like what

That's exactly why I asked you what I did.

I wanted to see how committed you were to your reads. I know you SR me. I know you SR wooper. I wanted to know how many people you would advocate lynching just to get off the chopping block.

This feels slightly disingenuous — like it was a trick question where any answer Menalque gave would've be the wrong answer. How would you have responded if Menalque answered with the hypothetical you proposed in 1063?

[Homura]

Mena, under the hypothetical that Luciano is town, do you think I or Titus would be the most likely partner for scum!Wooper?

[Homura]

Would you have honestly townread Menalque if he answered the way you wanted?

[Homura]

wasn't Titus still townreading LL at end of day 1? I need to check that again

Point taken — she didn't scumread Luciano at the time. I'm still not sure why she's scumreading him today, besides his aggressiveness.

do you think there's something problematic about Titus being hung up on people agreeing with her? I think that's a fairly reasonable thing to be worried about, especially if you're town and you're leading and you think it's likely scum are following you

Because the context surrounding the wagon was that Luciano was a top general townread and that Titus had considered the interaction TvT. The fact that she's asking everyone why Luciano wasn't wagoned in place of Ph0enix is disingenuous in light of that. Why would everyone divert onto Luciano when Karnage has been the consensus scumread?

why do you think Titus voted my slot today and not cheeky?

I honestly have no clue, which has been the same stance I've taken for Titus's entire play this game. Why do you think she voted your slot?

[Homura]

Mena, under the hypothetical that Luciano is town, do you think I or Titus would be the most likely partner for scum!Wooper?

you not being who I thought you were changes the equation slightly, but idk if it makes you townier or scummier

I'll try to stop judging you as much based on meta

as for the question, I'm not sure. I find it weird that wooper + Titus are now townreading each other sorta? but LL is much more plausible scum still so I'm not entertaining that possibility unless my lynch becomes inevitable and I have to try to give more nuanced reads to potentially help you guys tomorrow

It might not be half a year — I don't quite recall. Who else do you know who's bad with votecounts?

[Homura]

I swear ceejay was on a second ago.

[Homura]

It's wrong to imply that I "wanted" any particular answer. If he answered in the way that I feel is town, then I would feel he is more town than I do now.

Alright. I'll do you one in return.

Who do you think is scum if Menalque is town?

[Homura]

Checking in. End of term is approaching and I have some projects to catch up on, but they should all be resolved soon.

[Homura]

I'm around and caught up.

Finding it difficult to engage with several pages worth of content and parse it like I would normally do, so this is going to be very stream-of-consciouslike.

[Homura]

Words aren't working at the moment.

I think a lot of my indecisiveness and lack of enthusiasm for this game came from reading pages of the same two people yelling over each other. My mind ends up glazing over.

[Homura]

Spoiler: Quoting for posterior

........ lol
i'm starting to doubt my townreads
it's mena + one of {cjv, homura}.
i don't individually scumread either of them but the way they've handled this 1v1 has been hilariously wolfy

lowkey waiting for homura to pop in and lolhammer me

originally crush's vote struck me as ez distancing but the more he's doubled down the less i think he's aligned with menalque.
ll's entire approach to this argument has been obvtown.
titus should probably still be town here but her reads are like blatantly unabashedly incorrect and if ~evidence~ comes to light that she might be scum, pls reintroduce her to the poe.
cjv i don't want to say too much on. you should be able to clear him d3. if not, mena/cjv is the scumteam
homura has been avoiding making a decision on me vs. menalque and instead is just quizzing other slots on other unrelated stuff

we could flashwagon homura tbh but i still want menalque d3. homura makes sense as town, and makes sense as an absent mena partner.

[Homura]

Spoiler: Quoting for posterior, 2

I'm actually kind of thinking crush + wooper rn

Oh, and double check titus in f3 if wooper is red

I think she’s town and it’s just crush but like to be safe

Also do take a second look at homura if she takes a really long time to decide here or goes totally passive

I think sometimes newbies get very stressed here when they have to choose between hammering their buddy or hammering town and so I guess that could be scum!indicstive for her if crush is still town after reevaluation

[Homura]

Wooper, what exactly about the way I handled the 1v1 was "hilariously wolfy?" And why did you think I would come and lolhammer you when I've been reading your slot town all game?

Why is CJ in both your town and scum pools?

[Homura]

Also do take a second look at homura if she takes a really long time to decide here or goes totally passive

I think sometimes newbies get very stressed here when they have to choose between hammering their buddy or hammering town and so I guess that could be scum!indicstive for her if crush is still town after reevaluation

You of all players know this does not apply to me.

Mena, can you point out which of my posts indicated that I had a preference for voting you?

[Homura]

the correct lynch is in {me,mena}
i think mena's scumfuckery is extremely obvious so
the correct lynch for townies today is mena
there is 1-2 town in {titus,cjv} and they get a loootttt easier to sort after we have a scumflip, so

people just need to choose who in me/mena they think is wolfier

tse/cjv also towny by play ya

Don't mean to pressure you Homura but we have 34 hours left and Mena/i are tied at L-1 wagons.

If you have a townread on either of us aorn just hammer the one you don't townread, even if it's just to avoid no lynch.

Fmpov Mena is really obvious scum and he's basically crammed his fingers into his ears screaming "LALALALA wooper obvious scum" since he replaced in. I don't see a solve where Mena is town. I don't think he sees a solve where I'm town.

Do you think town!Wooper talks to his scumreads like this?

[Homura]

That was before I engaged with you and Luciano and reconsidered my read on you.

[Homura]

I didn’t realise you’d necessarily reconsidered, or that your reconsideration had gone to the extent that you were thinking I may be town

I hadn't time to consolidate it before being swamped with schoolwork and emergency move-outs, but I was leaning that way. Also don't think scum!you is capable of the townspew in 1109.

But I dislike the fact that both you and Wooper are playing this as a dichotomy and throwing out tinfoils on partners with no explanation behind them, and instead engaging in a prolonged "no, you!" fight that's incredibly hard to sift through.

[Homura]

And I know that both of you are going to claim that you're the one who's been trying to solve and the other has only deathtunneled, but you've been both doing the same thing. The difference is that I think you've engaged with me and other slots in slightly better faith than Wooper has.

[Homura]

Do you see what I mean?

Like, I think that's what a lot of people are misunderstanding where my passivity comes from, because both of you and some others put me as a possible partner for not taking a clear stance when the position I'm in makes it difficult to do so. From my PoV it's extremely hard to discern which of you is trying to be genuine and which is scum hard-tunneling to the grave. Both of you lockscummed each other out of wedlock and refused to relent, reiterating the same arguments. Both of you are now tossing out partner theories and reneging on previous townreads doing so. And both of you are putting me under scrutiny for not being sure which of you is telling the truth.

[Homura]

I'm also concerned that you two are calling me out for my passivity but completely ignoring the fact that Titus has been coasting comfortably throughout the day while one of her top scumreads is being tunneled and wagoned. Why have you both expressed the same "maybe town, but PoE later" read on her?

[Homura]

Deadline: 0 days, 11 hours, 50 minutes.

Just realized this.

If any of you are on, consolidate with me ASAP. I will be around for a few more hours.

[Homura]

Also, side note: I'm a she, not a he. Please refer to me by the correct pronouns.

[Homura]

I'm leaning on voting Wooper, but I'm almost as paranoid about Menalque. Penny for your thoughts on the posts I quoted in1309.

[Homura]

Both of you are now tossing out partner theories and reneging on previous townreads doing so.

I was wary of the fact that he's considering so many partner prospects, but on a reconsideration I'm not sure how much scum!Mena gains out of that.

[Homura]

Who do you think has the highest partner equity on a red Wooper flip?

[Homura]

ceejay don't leave me here.

[Homura]

Ugh.

[Homura]

THat ugh wasn't directed at you, sorry. Don't want to screw this up.

[Homura]

Does scum!Wooper normally openwolf?

[Homura]

He's being more convincing than you are right now.

[Homura]

Wooper, I'm going to need you to level w/ me pretty quick if you're town, dude.

[Homura]

Wooper, I'm going to need you to level w/ me pretty quick if you're town, dude.

i'm busy irl
it's 10pm here
i'm tired
i'll be asleep for deadline

look tbh i think my iso is pretty obviously town and i think mena's agenda is ridiculously obvious

i know that he's posting more. but is he posting anything towny?

I think he's very very towny right now, actually.

[Homura]

This might just be Crush and Homura.

Did someone order a hot take, steamed and boiled?

[Homura]

crush/homura actually makes sense

...wow.

[Homura]

I'm trying not to use vulgar language on this account, but ho-lee cripes.

[Homura]

VOTE: Wooper

I'm done with this.

[Homura]

I'm cancelling Mafia for 24 years. Good night.

[Homura]

Whew.

That felt good.

[Homura]

Sorry for doubting you, Mena.

In hindsight it was rather obvious, being in that position of having to choose made it a lot more muddled.

[Homura]

Don't think I was expecting that flip.

Can someone run me through the PR spec that took place yesterday? Did Titus soft?

[Homura]

What does Wooper gain from implying that you're PR, though?

[Homura]

Especially since he knew Titus was tracker?

[Homura]

Luciano, I think. I don’t think Wooper could have pushed for the idea of ceejay being FN on his own.

[Homura]

But then it means they were blatantly partnering and I don’t know if it’s a play they would’ve taken under the heat they were under D2.

[Homura]

Well I've been pretty much wrong about everything this game. Is there a chance only outside of Crush + Myself is scum? If not we win by lynching between us in any order.

What’s your lynch order, then?

[Homura]

@LL, if you're town you should always be working things out right? I was wrong D2 as well, but I still want to win this game.

@CJV, who do you think is more likely to be mafia out of Menal and Homura?

What was your motivation behind asking this? Menalque is pretty much never scum here after the flip.

Are you saying you think Menalque could be scum?

[Homura]

I do want to apologize for my lack of activity in this game, FTR. My WIM only gets less the more I go without posting, but I don’t feel like I know which direction to go.

[Homura]

Obviously Crush before me, because I know I'm town. If he's town we probably lose because I don't imagine a scenario where I'm not lynched next DP.

Put it this way: if you don’t restrict the lynchpool to just Crush and yourself, what order would you lynch in?

[Homura]

Heads up to players and mod: I’ll be V/LA indefinitely as my classes start in the new online format.

I’m unsure how long it’ll take for me to adapt to the different style of schoolwork, so I may not have time for mafia for a while. Try my best to at least post something useful every two days.

P-edit: I forgot Menalque was replaced. Welcome!

[Homura]

Who’s your call for scum, happyorange?

[Homura]

I somewhat see what you’re trying to get at, but I’m not sure how you think the first three posts you’ve quoted clear Luciano. Do you think Cheeky wouldn’t locktown her partner?

[Homura]

That’s a fair question.

I have my own thoughts on this, but I’ll elaborate after ceejay answers.

[Homura]

Do you agree that Titus most likely tracked ceejay N1?

[Homura]

Works for me.

happyorange, I’ll hear your input, but consider my intent on Luciano.

[Homura]

Anything you want to ask me while we’re both here, Crush?

[Homura]

Sounds good. Well wishes to you too.

[Homura]

As a preliminary: I wish I could give this the attention it deserves right now, but not only am I swamped with schoolwork, I'm also undergoing a bit of a personal crisis. The site is also being horrendously slow for me for some reason, so quoting will be difficult for me as well.

Crush, ceejay, I just want you two, please, to consider whether Luciano's play here is town who managed to somehow out a PR, push two town, and locktown a scum; or scum who forced the gamestate and is pushing for my mislynch as a last-ditch effort to win the game. The fact that he's "entertaining the possibilities" should read as a red flag to you, especially when it isn't remotely likely that ceejay could be anything but mechanically locktown.

[Homura]

Also shouldn't be ignoring the fact that Mena read me as town for the hammer despite being one of the two leading wagons and savvy enough to consider most players hammering in that situation as NAI or scum-indicative bussing. He knows that scum!me would never hammer when I could have chosen to hammer town, because I'm not confident enough in my scumplay to solo scum. I was in a position where, if I were scum, I can convincingly hammer Mena if need be and would only need to coast two dayphases instead of just one. I would never pick the less optimal WIFOM as scum.

P-edit: Thanks for the kind wishes.

Homura, if I'm lynched and flip green, who is scum?

You don't flip green here.

P-edit 2: This is killing me. It's taking two minutes to even load the page.

[Homura]

Can confirm, site is running slow.

If I'm playing the mafia face and open wolfsiding all game, why does Wooper play aggro day 2? It just doesn't make sense. scum!Lucky only ever works with a passive second mafia, or if you assume Wooper horribly misplayed our team dynamic. The latter assumption still fails to explain why Cheeky sheeped the hell out of me when I replaced in. Are we really trying to operate under the assumption that both Cheeky and Wooper misplayed their role in a scumteam with me massively? Further, why would I take an open-wolf stance as the mafia PR? Knowing what we know now with flips, if I'm mafia, I'm the roleblocker. Why would I play so aggro as the roleblocker? It doesn't compute.

Why are you trying to convince me if you think I'm scum?

You can't expect me to take a potshot on why you would or wouldn't do something as scum. I've seen players openwolf as mafia PR and obvtown as town PR. I've seen scum players heavily townblocking with their partners to control the gamestate. My impression of you is that you're the "extroverted" type—you'd play the gamestate through sheer force of will, so I can definitely reconcile your role with your play this game.

P-edit: Quoting is impossible right now, but I had a scumping on Ph0enix from before you started openly pushing him. Anyone can feel free to corroborate this.

[Homura]

@LL, yes I did read back but the site has been terribly slow. I didn't really find anything that stood out to me, the only thing is that there's definitely an argument to be made that Wooper talked Homura into hammering because Homura's game-long TR switched to her hammering Wooper.

My reasoning at the time was his directed shade onto town when he realized he might be lynched, as well as his refusal to answer any of my questions and Mena's willingness to work with me. I don't think my vote switch was outside of what was feasible from a town perspective.

[Homura]

And now the site works.

[Homura]

Vote: Homura

Can I ask why?

[Homura]

Wow.

It actually took me an entire hour to post the few posts I did. That's how bad it was.

[Homura]

Sorry, Wooper. You're a really good partner and coach, I'm just a hopeless case.

Don't think I want the PT released—there's some stuff in there I don't want made public. Thanks for understanding and best regards in your next games.

[Homura]

I also need to take more care of myself outside of the game. This shutdown has had me isolated for so long that it's really getting at my motivation to do anyway.

Same here.

I originally came back to this site because my best friend signed up for it (he was Phi Kappa Phi), and I thought it'd be nice to play a few games with him and see if I can spot with any familiar faces as well as passing quarantine time, but... I don't know. The games have been missing the charm I used to enjoy so much, and it feels like the site as a whole is a lot less lively. I don't think I'm cut out for mafia at the moment.

P-edit: I really appreciate your kind words, everyone. I guess I'm just going through a bit of a mood right now. Things are crazy.

[Homura]

I think you have very good tone, homura

@LL, sorry if things got unpleasant. Hope ur okay irl

Thanks, Mena. Likewise, it's easy to see why you got Rising Star.

[Homura]

I should have just voted! Arrrrgh.