Newbie 2054 - GAME OVER

[Meuh]

Hey everyone!!! time for town to win VOTE:

Kazyan

for not having an anime girl as their pfp.

Scummies, you should out yourselves now! Otherwise we'll catch you and you'll face HARSH consequences for your crimes

[Meuh]

@Meuh, this is a little oog but was rachelpie trying to in with you? The proximity of your ins made me think you were friends or something

Yeah, im irl friends with rachel, she told me something came up. not sure what but i hope she plays next game! <3

~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~

beating the mafia with the power of friendship can be problematic (it can be hard to reevaluate people if you don't *want* to reevaluate them) but I still would rather have that then a highly toxic game, which can occur even in newbie queue.

ooh i hope the games here don't get too toxic but yes we need to look at things objectively and make smart decisions, regardless of who we like or dislike

~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~

I do think Kazyan looks like a townie here, just from reading his posts and his reply to Krazy's read, although I think anyone contributing to the conversation is more likely to be town than people not talking, right? Most games I've played the more silent the town, the better for scum

[Meuh]

*they

sorry Kazyan

[Meuh]

Does anyone else find the constant use of emoticons to come off as insincere, or is it just me?

most of my emoji use goes something like this:
-I use the emoji ironically
-I use the emoji semi ironically
-I use it unironically

which is probably the reason why

I think the sunglasses is the clearest case of this (i never really use it to convey i'm cool, i just use it to enrich the way i speak) but i just like using them, people find them odd sometimes but who really cares? i'm not gonna be boring to look more sincere or less cringe better to be extravagant than to limit myself

[Meuh]

Alright, let me make a read list. This format may be a bit odd to you guys but ppl used it in other games i've played so...

TTT = Confirmed town
TT = Strong town read
T = Town read
/T = Town lean
/ = Neutral
/M = Mafia lean
M = Mafia read
MM = Strong mafia read
MMM = Confirmed mafia
Nothing = player has provided no input

Kazyan (/T)

Good vibes!

marcistar (/T)

Seems to be contributing to the discussion, messages aren't scummy.

Cantripmancer (/)

Not much input, and the input felt a bit odd.

Harumi Ayasato (/)

Talked a bit but didn't do anything to warrant a townlean

2ndchosen1 ()

Nothing yet

ItalianoVD (/T)

Contributing, messages look like a townie's

eth0s ()

Just voted and left.

Krazy (/T)

Actively contributing, making sure convo happens , but is experienced, so could easily be just be playing as they always do. Plus some of these messages look like they may be trying to pocket Marci? Not a huge deal, but still something I noticed.


After a certain point, inactivity becomes scummy, but this game just started.

[Meuh]

The fact that I am trying to pocket (almost) the entire list is more a matter of playstyle than anything else, I'm a very pockety player as both town and scum Actually, I subjectively think I'm even more pockety as town than as scum, but I'm definitely pockety as both, and I'm not sure a casual observer would notice the difference.

If I seem kinda excited about the Marci read, it's because I've been thinking a lot about a recent post unwnd made in mafia discussion about the value of tone reads, so I'm curious to see how my early game tone reads play out. I can already tell that this is going to be a game where one of my big thoughts in postgame will be about whether tone reads are good or not. (unwnd's argument was that they're just not good at all, I think they're good early game and then should be supplanted by thought process reads as there's enough content to do so)

I do have some expanded thoughts on my Harumi read but I'll hold off until she posts a bit in response to Italiano. I also feel like I should probably be posting less until the low content slots post a bit more but I'm kinda enjoying this game a lot already lol

I do generally vibe your reads list Meuh! So that's a good feel

Ooh interesting, I don't often see people just... admit to pocketing, interesting playstyle! Excited to see how it plays out

Also don't post less, I want people to talk to

This is gonna be a good game, I also feel it! All those scummies are gonna be caught by the end of the day

Excited to see that extended Harumi read! Will be nice to look at

[Meuh]

What’s your definition of constant? And myself, meuh, and Marcistar all used them, so we’re all insincere?

the weird defensiveness of this post might be a little scummy too, maybe I'll move italiano out of lean town

I personally didn't really find Italiano scummy here. This doesn't seem defensive to me, it looks more like either defending

me

or trying to push on Harumi. If it's to defend me, I don't mind it, and if it's to push on Harumi, I don't really understand what's scummy about it either. If anything, early aggressiveness can be a sign of being town, right? Since it feeds discussion.

[Meuh]

What’s your definition of constant? And myself, meuh, and Marcistar all used them, so we’re all insincere?

the weird defensiveness of this post might be a little scummy too, maybe I'll move italiano out of lean town

I personally didn't really find Italiano scummy here. This doesn't seem defensive to me, it looks more like either defending

me

or trying to push on Harumi. If it's to defend me, I don't mind it, and if it's to push on Harumi, I don't really understand what's scummy about it either. If anything, early aggressiveness can be a sign of being town, right? Since it feeds discussion.

I also thought about this a bit. Meuh if you're town you should be careful about italiano he might be trying to get on ur good side. It looks like he was trying to defend you might mean that Meuh + Italiano = team, but idk if thats too much of a stretch since its so early on.

Ig you're bringing up a fair point, but the only instance of Italiano "trying to get on my good side" is that one message, and his intentions could be completely unrelated to that, as I established in my post. There's several people who are more actively trying to get on my good side (Krazy, Kazyan, you) than he is. Not saying the way you guys are acting is weird, just that I don't find this specific instance to be particularly worrying.

[Meuh]

Alright, let me make a read list. This format may be a bit odd to you guys but ppl used it in other games i've played so...

TTT = Confirmed town
TT = Strong town read
T = Town read
/T = Town lean
/ = Neutral
/M = Mafia lean
M = Mafia read
MM = Strong mafia read
MMM = Confirmed mafia
Nothing = player has provided no input

Kazyan (/T)

Good vibes!

marcistar (/T)

Seems to be contributing to the discussion, messages aren't scummy.

Cantripmancer (/)

Not much input, and the input felt a bit odd.

Harumi Ayasato (/)

Talked a bit but didn't do anything to warrant a townlean

2ndchosen1 ()

Nothing yet

ItalianoVD (/T)

Contributing, messages look like a townie's

eth0s ()

Just voted and left.

Krazy (/T)

Actively contributing, making sure convo happens , but is experienced, so could easily be just be playing as they always do. Plus some of these messages look like they may be trying to pocket Marci? Not a huge deal, but still something I noticed.


After a certain point, inactivity becomes scummy, but this game just started.

Not terribly AI but I see little point in doing a readslist in page three of a mafia game. They don't really add anything this early.

Why not? They create information for people to read me on and fuel discussion. We've gotta start somewhere...

[Meuh]

Meuh, given your reads list had kazyan as a good vibes townlean, why did you not move your vote after writing the list?

I thought about doing that, but I just felt like it was unnecessary and I didn't wanna give the host more to keep track of, essentially. Switching onto someone else to pressure them is a good idea though, so VOTE:

eth0s

Meuh's reads would be fine, but in addition to being so early, there are no scumreads. It seems more performative than towny. I'll keep an eye on that.

I just didn't have enough on the people I would consider scumreading to really warrant writing them down as scumlean. At this point, I'd probably say I'm scumleaning on Harumi, because they're keeping up their pattern of messages being either memeing, or talking how they don't like an aspect of someone else's gameplay. I'd like more meaningful contribution.

[Meuh]

Meuh, given your reads list had kazyan as a good vibes townlean, why did you not move your vote after writing the list?

I thought about doing that, but I just felt like it was unnecessary and I didn't wanna give the host more to keep track of, essentially. Switching onto someone else to pressure them is a good idea though, so VOTE:

eth0s

I won't lie guys, this vote from Meuh I kinda don't like. It seems like shes moving her vote around for other peoples approval (which is what scum would essentially want to do). I think this because she switched it around only

after

she got questioned about it.. I think its an obvious attempt to seem town.

My logic here was:

I don't think I need to change my vote -> Krazy mentions my vote -> I reflect on my vote -> I switch my vote, not for the reason Krazy brought up (my townlean) but because the reflection made me remember that voting people to apply pressure is usually a pretty good idea.

Yes, it was linked to what Krazy said, but the reasoning was my own, because I thought the action was most beneficial to us as a town.

[Meuh]

My logic here was:

I don't think I need to change my vote -> Krazy mentions my vote -> I reflect on my vote -> I switch my vote, not for the reason Krazy brought up (my townlean) but because the reflection made me remember that voting people to apply pressure is usually a pretty good idea.

Yes, it was linked to what Krazy said, but the reasoning was my own, because I thought the was most beneficial to us as a town.

It looks like you have your own reasons yes, but it looks like the driving force to make a different vote was because you were questioned on it. Would you have

ever

switched if he just didn't mention it..? Thats what i've been thinking about. I don't know if I believe the "you don't wannna make it harder for the mod" stuff, since when is keeping a "bad" vote good for a townie to do..

Though I think I should maybe drop this, and look into other people. TBH I feel like i'm tunneling you too much right now Meuh because we're friends. i'll keep my eyes open for u tho..

I've played/hosted games and keeping tracks of votes was a nightmare, ngl. Not sure if there's any tools to make it easier for the host here, but that was a genuine thought I had. Not the most sound logic, though, I agree.

~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~+~

The more I see from Krazy, the scummier they look ngl... these recent posts have been a bit odd to me. but I can't really put my finger on why.

[Meuh]

@Kazyan: Got it, sorry. Thanks for the clarification.

@Meuh: *I* don't have an anime girl for my profile pic. Why is Kazyan scum and I'm not?

That was just the dumb reasoning for my early vote. Unless you wanted me to vote for you? As I've already established, I don't scumread Kazyan.

[Meuh]

@Marcistar: Are you scum?

yeye ofc i am

Omg we gotta elim Marci now she slipped now I'll have to solo-carry the scum team

Spoiler:

to clarify, this is also a joke

[Meuh]

Figured it out. I'm used to 50ppp, refreshed on page 1, saw "post 24", and didn't even think that there might be more pages. lol

Meuh, given your reads list had kazyan as a good vibes townlean, why did you not move your vote after writing the list?

I thought about doing that, but I just felt like it was unnecessary and I didn't wanna give the host more to keep track of, essentially. Switching onto someone else to pressure them is a good idea though, so VOTE:

eth0s

It's been discussed, but in a game of Mafia, saying "I didn't want to make the mod have to track a vote change" feels a bit fake. (I've modded--am in fact currently modding--and I've never once thought "gosh, I wish my players would stop changing their vote; it's so inconvenient".)

Yeah, I'm repeating myself a bit, but I hosted a few games on another website and I found keeping track of votes absolutely

DREADFUL

. I think my complaining is part of what lead to discussion on how to change the voting system, which they did end up doing. Fair enough to feel it's fake though, pretty trivial concern looking back on it.

Preview edit: I will lol so hard if this is a Marci/Mueh scumteam.

Also: https://giphy.com/gifs/e9cvCCemn45PmMDSGy can't believe you'd do this to me

[Meuh]

My conclusion based on the above pairings:

If

Krazy is scum, the likely partner is Harumi. Catrip and IVD are unlikely to be scum!Krazy's partner. This is

not

a suggestion that Krazy is scum,

because I still have Krazy as a null overall, which sucks. Most of Krazy's history is hard for me to read with a slight lean towards town, except for post 88. That post just rubs me the wrong way for some reason, because it's asking for two specific reads. It seems odd for town to be preoccupied over just those two instead of the town overall, but, like. I don't know.

That was honestly the vibe I was getting as Krazy's most probable partner. Krazy + Harumi as a team is something I could very much see happen.

The focus on me and Marci on post 88 may be just due to us being some of the more active players that were omitted, but could be something else. Wouldn't dislike explanation on this from Krazy.

[Meuh]

Will read pages 6 and 7 + make a new post later, currently busy getting educated

[Meuh]

Kazyan, from what you've said, I'm your

only

scumread, and afaik you haven't explained the read at all? I'd like justification for it!

Eth0s, like Cantrip, I'd love some further explanation on your vote... I'm not sure I understand it.

I'm being scumread by a few people, but still have no clue why, other than my vote earlier.

I'd say I'm null on Eth0s, and as my vote has no more value in terms of pressuring, I'll VOTE:

Harumi

As for other changes in reads? Here you go:

TTT = Confirmed town
TT = Strong town read
T = Town read
/T = Town lean
/ = Neutral
/M = Mafia lean
M = Mafia read
MM = Strong mafia read
MMM = Confirmed mafia

Kazyan (/)
I'm liking them less than I did earlier, but not enough to warrant a scumlean.
marcistar (/T)
Still looks like a townie to me!
Cantripmancer (/T)
Recent posts have been looking pretty town-like to me.
Harumi Ayasato (/M)
I feel pretty conflicted on Harumi, honestly. Krazy x Harumi is possible as I mentioned earlier, but outside of their interactions with Krazy, I don't see anything too bad about them? Other than earlier posts which didn't contribute much, like starting the emoji debate.
2ndchosen1 (/T)
I do like their posts so far, but would like more to get a better read.
ItalianoVD (/)
I'm finding them pretty hard to read, honestly. Would love more input.
eth0s (/)
Kind of conflicted on this, not the biggest fan of their vote on me but they generally haven't done anything to warrant a scumlean.
Krazy (/T)
Krazy stays there, I did start questioning my read a bit yesterday, but eh, I still believe they're town atm.

Will be heading back to class soon, might have the time to write another post or 2. Will be able to more actively discuss in a few hours!

[Meuh]

Oh, I was switching around on my reads a lot while questioning them and accidentally left Harumi's null description instead of their scum lean one. I was very conflicted when making a lot of these reads, so they took me a while

[Meuh]

Meuh, I believe that you're being scumread as your listings are just that. there's no real substance to them beyond "THIS IS MY CURRENT POSITION". it's a weak iioa that doesn't advance any position or generally help. If anything it appears like an attempt to look like you're trying to solve.

Yeah, that’s fair. I haven’t played mafia based on actual scumreading in months and I’m unfamiliar with this website, I’m having a really hard time actually putting my ideas into words, which sucks.

[Meuh]

Hey guys, just want to let you know that I won’t be checking this game for the next like 16 to 24 hours, some stuff IRL has gotten me very mentally exhausted and tired, so I’m just gonna take a break for the sake of my mental health. Hopefully coming back with a fresher mind will make me carry the game even harder

[Meuh]

For example:

Random thought, but even if I'm wrong on one of them, Meuh and Harumi are never ever scum together after Meuh has committed herself to use the sunglasses emote in every post after Harumi's emotes complaint post

It could

totally

be Meuh and Harumi. Something something newbie scum like Day 1 distancing, something something WIFOM.

Harumi we gotta discuss this in mafia chat

[Meuh]

Honestly reading back on 2nd's page 6 posts, I'm more null on 2nd than townleaning. Their reads seem incomplete, for someone who has 5 full pages they've yet to comment on.

pretty much
I'm town lean on Italiano, Kazyan, and Cantrip
IVD has good takes, posts like 67 especially sing town
Kazyan's 109 seems to be a decent analysis of a D1 posting pattern on Krazy.
Cantrip's interaction with Kazyan looks towny to me.

Nulls for the rest right now

This is on page 6... and it's less complete than my reads 50 posts in

Meuh, I believe that you're being scumread as your listings are just that. there's no real substance to them beyond "THIS IS MY CURRENT POSITION". it's a weak iioa that doesn't advance any position or generally help. If anything it appears like an attempt to look like you're trying to solve.

I mean he does list a few specific posts that he likes, I guess, but this comment, coming from him considering his lack of almost any substance after 5 pages?

Will have to see how this read progresses

[Meuh]

I'm gonna UNVOTE: and VOTE: 2ndchosen. I feel better with my vote there, honestly

[Meuh]

oh i forgot to make my vote

pink

[Meuh]

I've read through your readslist Krazy and I didn't know what to think about it, because as I said I'd like to hope you are townie, but I just don't know, however, the tone of 215 feels like caught scum to me.

This:

I was just trying to get in the conversation after not really seeing anything of major significance.

...

"I was just"

feels like "how could you scumread me, I'm doing what everyone else is doing?" which just feels like disappointed scum to me.

And this:

the "why did you think the emotes are that important Krazy" question was more a "Am I missing something?" question.

Feels like a backpedal. When 2nd came out he wasn't necessarily trying to see if he was missing something, iirc he came out pretty confidently with his reads and his questioning, but when Krazy called him out and started scumreading him, his tone changed. Now it feels like he's pleading. What do you think @Krazy, @Kazyan, @Meuh, @Ethos

VOTE: 2ndchosen1 I believe that's E-2

BTW, @Eth0s: do you feel you have a more solid read on Krazy now so that I can ease my mind a bit?

I agree with your thoughts on 2nd here. There's an annoyed, almost angry tone that has picked up since Krazy has started calling him out. It would make sense from a scum 2nd, he turned from widespread townleans to a lot of scumleans in a pretty short span of time, and he could view the logic as faulty due to how quick the shift seemed to have been and like you said, the feeling he's doing the same as everyone else, and thus does not deserve to be scumread.

2nd has the scummiest tone out of anyone in the game so far imo, although maybe not the scummiest content/reads within those posts? Either way I like having my vote on him, and this is the most confident I've been in a scumread so far.

[Meuh]

Also @Italiano, why @ those specific people? (Krazy, Kazyan, me, Ethos and Cantrip) and exclude Marci + Harumi?

[Meuh]

Also @Italiano, why @ those specific people? (Krazy, Kazyan, me, Ethos and Cantrip) and exclude Marci + Harumi?

Is it not obvious?

No it isn't my brain isn't that big

[Meuh]

Also @Italiano, why @ those specific people? (Krazy, Kazyan, me, Ethos and Cantrip) and exclude Marci + Harumi?

Is it not obvious?

No it isn't my brain isn't that big

Lol. I’m townleaning the ones I asked. The ones I didn’t ask I either don’t townlean or I have questions about.

That was the vibe I was getting but I didn't wanna assume that and sound dumb

[Meuh]

Okay, I looked through a bunch of ISOs with a new mindset. Meuh is scum.

The reasons for this is that all of her votes are opportunistic, backed by shallow reads. She previously expressed suspicion about Harumi in 75 and then about Krazy in 83. In 110, she jumps on the chance to call them a team, only because I suggested it first, and pressures Krazy for an explanation. Meuh's vote moves to Harumi in 181, but only did this because she could join IVD's Harumi vote in 119--Meuh did not have a Harumi vote previously, despite a scumlean over 100 posts earlier. Meuh townleaning 2ndchosen1 in 181, but then Krazy made a hard push to against 2ndchosen1 in 191. Then that townlean reverses over the course of two posts, and she jump on the 2ndchosen1 wagons, since that's the powertown's choice. All the while, she's playing dumb with comments like in 233.

VOTE: Meuh

Stop yelling at 2ndchosen1 for being confused about proper word choice around anime girls. Yeet Meuh instead.

"Playing dumb" I'm just genuinely not sure what he's saying there? and I haven't played a serious or read based mafia game since like... April, I'm trying to learn how things are going, and sometimes that goes along with being confused and asking obvious questions sometimes.

I already thought of the Krazy x Harumi duo before you mentioned it because of their odd interactions, I guess you brought it up first?

I'm having a generally hard time forming solid reads. When someone makes an accusation, I look further into it, which ig biases me towards having the same scumreads as others. Like I said on my readlist earlier, I kept switching around my reads, cause I just... can't seem to figure out what I think.

Shallow and opportunistic votes are the easiest to follow for my small brain getting adjusted to the game, so that's what I'm going with. The push on 2nd made me question my original read, so I went back, reread, and got some weird vibes from- like I said, the lack of analysis in his first few posts and his progressively angrier and more annoyed tone.

Oh no, I've been caught!!!!1!!!!111!

[Meuh]

@meuh, only had the one real scumleam declaration at the time of your post. when/how would a reasonable ex[ansion of my reads be appropriate? my past posts only some townlesn reads and justifications for those townleams. not exactly hiding behind my reads. following people just to follow is how one loses as town. Be receptive but skeptical, message and intent matters
"oh no, i've been caught!!!!1!!!!111! "
"haha, it's definitely not me!!!! me just smooth brain" at least i'm not just invoking hanlon's razor. i gave a pass on the iioa list and maybe it's confbias, but i hid behind the things you have done in my last game and have even explained to a degree how that can come across as scummy, yet it still happens?

I'll be on more later this evening after I make suooer

"i gave a pass on the iioa list and maybe it's confbias, but i hid behind the things you have done in my last game and have even explained to a degree how that can come across as scummy, yet it still happens?"

I have no clue what you're trying to say here in the second half of your sentence. What last game? This is my first game on this website...

And no, I'm not gonna pretend to be some mafia goddess, I'm not playing excellently. I understand how some of my behavior can come across as scummy, which is why I explain the reasoning behind them (usually either me being used to a different website, thus carrying over behaviors from there like constantly joking about being scum, and just not being used to scumreading as I haven't done it in months), instead of pretending either those behaviors don't exist or aren't scummy, as lying as a town member isn't how we're gonna make progress. Just going "yes I'm scum!" is kinda my natural reaction to being accused, cause I like memeing around in games.

I'd recommend rereading your posts a bit more, cause this is tough to understand ngl

[Meuh]

I'll condense the soup about you then

I'm saying that I've been in a total of two games, the rest of my experience is literally just among us. My first game I expressed behavior I find similar to yours, and I was scum in that game. specifically the read listing and the "I don't know what I'm doing though" remind me of myself in that game.
"Playing dumb" I'm just genuinely not sure what he's saying there? and I haven't played a serious or read based mafia game since like... April
I don't know how many games you've done on these other sites, and maybe your skills have degraded since, I also haven't played Settler's of Catan in over a year and yet I feel I could still play a mean game of it, I would expect certain fundamentals to be around.

I understand that you haven't necessarily played on this site before. Forum posting isn't exactly my forte either, I don't think I've really got a handle on tone to any real degree for any role. it's why I initially have taken you as Nullread. What do you think of me right now? has any of the others voting on me or you stood out and why?

The only other people voting for you are Italiano and Krazy, who I'm both leaning on town on atm, so I have no real issue with these votes. My perspective hasn't really shifted since my vote, honestly, if anything, purely looking at how other people have been acting, it's gotten maybe slightly more scumleaning? Just cause I generally have not been feeling great about Kazyan recently and the fact that I was the one used to pivot away from the vote on you, and looking at my role, yeah that's not a great sign of Kazy or your alignment to me.

Will try to provide more meaningful analysis from now on, it is true that my recent posts have mostly been me justifying behaviour ppl see as scummy using meta, which I don't think is particularly helpful.

[Meuh]

Krazy really exposed our mason trio like that

I do agree this wagon isn't going too fast, we're 3 votes and 3 people supporting it, with several people doubting it and others stating no opinion on it so far.

By the way, would love some more from Harumi, they haven't posted in 32 hours...

[Meuh]

Oh dang and Eth0s hasn't in over 3 days

[Meuh]

2 days* typo

[Meuh]

I'm noticing that Meuh's last three posts have almost exclusively been justifying their actions. I'd like them to quickly reiterate who they believe their top candidate for elimination is today, as well as their reason.

I've read through your readslist Krazy and I didn't know what to think about it, because as I said I'd like to hope you are townie, but I just don't know, however, the tone of 215 feels like caught scum to me.

This:

I was just trying to get in the conversation after not really seeing anything of major significance.

...

"I was just"

feels like "how could you scumread me, I'm doing what everyone else is doing?" which just feels like disappointed scum to me.

And this:

the "why did you think the emotes are that important Krazy" question was more a "Am I missing something?" question.

Feels like a backpedal. When 2nd came out he wasn't necessarily trying to see if he was missing something, iirc he came out pretty confidently with his reads and his questioning, but when Krazy called him out and started scumreading him, his tone changed. Now it feels like he's pleading. What do you think @Krazy, @Kazyan, @Meuh, @Ethos

VOTE: 2ndchosen1 I believe that's E-2

BTW, @Eth0s: do you feel you have a more solid read on Krazy now so that I can ease my mind a bit?

I agree with your thoughts on 2nd here. There's an annoyed, almost angry tone that has picked up since Krazy has started calling him out. It would make sense from a scum 2nd, he turned from widespread townleans to a lot of scumleans in a pretty short span of time, and he could view the logic as faulty due to how quick the shift seemed to have been and like you said, the feeling he's doing the same as everyone else, and thus does not deserve to be scumread.

2nd has the scummiest tone out of anyone in the game so far imo, although maybe not the scummiest content/reads within those posts? Either way I like having my vote on him, and this is the most confident I've been in a scumread so far.

Here you go!

[Meuh]

Honestly reading back on 2nd's page 6 posts, I'm more null on 2nd than townleaning. Their reads seem incomplete, for someone who has 5 full pages they've yet to comment on.

pretty much
I'm town lean on Italiano, Kazyan, and Cantrip
IVD has good takes, posts like 67 especially sing town
Kazyan's 109 seems to be a decent analysis of a D1 posting pattern on Krazy.
Cantrip's interaction with Kazyan looks towny to me.

Nulls for the rest right now

This is on page 6... and it's less complete than my reads 50 posts in

Meuh, I believe that you're being scumread as your listings are just that. there's no real substance to them beyond "THIS IS MY CURRENT POSITION". it's a weak iioa that doesn't advance any position or generally help. If anything it appears like an attempt to look like you're trying to solve.

I mean he does list a few specific posts that he likes, I guess, but this comment, coming from him considering his lack of almost any substance after 5 pages?

Will have to see how this read progresses

Oh and this too, lack of substance in early posts with a lot of content to comment on

[Meuh]

true! vote for me

[Meuh]

@Harumi what are your reads on 2nd and me?

[Meuh]

whats chainsawing???

Chainsaw Defense

The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum".

The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense. In general, you can be reasonably sure that this tell is involved if a) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense has not previously been especially critical of the player he is now attacking, and b) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense seems to find the player he is supposedly defending at least reasonably pro-town.

The extreme form of this tell is Mutual Chainsaw Defense, where two players defend each other by attacking each others' attackers. This is a major scumtell, and Tarhalindur would be willing to lynch/vig both players with only this tell as justification.

The Chainsaw Defense is named after the mental image of a player ripping apart another player with a chainsaw for daring to attack his ally. It should not be confused with the Cochrane Defense, which can also be referred to as the Chainsaw Defense (the Wiki refers to the Cochrane Defense this way), which is a gambit made by players investigated as scum. The Chainsaw Defense can also be referred to as the Bodyguard Defense in order to prevent confusion.

UPDATE: After further analysis, Tarhalindur has determined that the Chainsaw Defense is only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum (once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a null tell. Mutual Chainsaw Defense may, however, still be an outright scumtell; more research is required here.



Taken from the wiki

[Meuh]

@meuh is what kazyan's done really enough of an attack on Krazy that it could be called chainsawing? yes or no, and why you think so, if you'd please.

I assumed the implication was that Kazyan was chainsawing me, not Krazy. If the implication was that they were chainsawing Krazy, then no I wouldn't say that was the appropriate term, I don't recall Kazyan making any real push against Krazy.
If it was to imply me, then yes, I would say so, since I'm one of the people pushing on you, and Kazy has shifted to more aggressively pushing me since I've started on you.

[Meuh]

pushing on you*

[Meuh]

Oh and to clarify my read on Marci as she's being brought up, I've been townleaning on her from the start and that has not changed. The light pushing on me isn't gonna ultimately help the town, but I don't scumread her for it.

[Meuh]

Just to make sure everyone's following, what's being discussed here is "a player (Marci/Kazyan) who defends another player (2ndchosen) by attacking the other player's attacker (Meuh) is very probably scum" and if the scenario fits that description/warrants a scumread on Marci and/or Kazyan.

[Meuh]

i mean a chainsaw needs pretty specific conditions. knowing i'm town, scumreading 2nd and feeling somewhere around null on kazy though, i do see it as a possibility, although scum probably wouldn't make themselves so obvious, if this is kazy and 2nd, then they're playing this pretty poorly imo.

[Meuh]

I don't believe that the chainsaw defense really applies here, due mainly to the fact that Meuh can essentially say "you're voting for me, I am scumreading 2nd who had a wagon, therefore you're chainsawing" which is as ridiculous as it sounds. For that matter, the wiki page itself (

which you quoted

) says that it's a null tell without flips (i.e. now).

I do agree with Kazyan that Meuh is inconsistent with their votes, and seems to be very manipulative with how apologetic they are when called out.
Your read on eth0s also implies that you think people voting for you is scummy, which I don't really agree with.

So not looking super good right now. Let's see about 2nd.

I think it's chainsawing, but like the wiki says yeah, it's a null tell. Someone brought up chainsaw, I said I think it applies to it, but I don't really scumread Kazy for it. Like I've already established, my read on Kazy is null, not scum.

Me saying chainsaw applies to the scenario ≠ me saying Kazy is scum for it.

[Meuh]

@Nexus Isn't Marci voting Harumi?

[Meuh]

Just to make sure everyone's following, what's being discussed here is "a player (Marci/Kazyan) who defends another player (2ndchosen) by attacking the other player's attacker (Meuh) is very probably scum" and if the scenario fits that description/warrants a scumread on Marci and/or Kazyan.

didnt i attack you before i ever mentioned 2nd?

Yeah? I don't think you're chainsawing, Marci. You've been pushing me for reasons unrelated to 2nd.

[Meuh]

As for actual reads
{Krazy}
{Italiano, Marci}
{Cantrip}
{Meuh}
{Harumi, 2ndchosen, kazyan}

Currently reading up, could you uh, explain that read format? Is it higher = more town?

[Meuh]

I need reads on Harumi and 2ndchosen1 from you Alisae-chan <3 <3 <3

{Harumi Meuh} 1 scum max 61
I don't think this is scum attacking scum and I think either side could be scum here.
Meuh posting a readlist here is strange and I don't see a reason why Meuh needs to post a readlist right now?
Harumi attacking that readlist could be a scum motivated action.
Both of them being villagers is possible.

{Italiano, 2ndchosen} 1 scum max 226
the justification on the vote pings me from Italiano so if Italiano is scum, 2ndchosen could be town,
but also Italiano being town is quite possible from what I read earlier so it could also be possible that it's Italiano town and 2ndchosen scum.

{kazyan, meuh} 1 scum max 236
the whole thing pings me and reads like scum voting town, I don't like how kazyan is basically describing meuh's actions like everything about it is scummy and it pings me.


As for actual reads
{Krazy}
{Italiano, Marci}
{Cantrip}
{Meuh}
{Harumi, 2ndchosen, kazyan}

If I'm in "1 scum max" scenarios with both Kazyan and Harumi, 2 of your 3 strongest scumreads, then why am I in this position on your readslist? I'd assume it's behavior in other scenarios, which I'd love to hear about since I only care about myself

[Meuh]

also i don't feel like chosen and harumi are aligned with each other.
honestly i kinda just wanna kill harumi like, a lot?

Why wouldn't Harumi/2nd be scum/scum?

pretty much
I'm town lean on Italiano, Kazyan, and Cantrip
IVD has good takes, posts like 67 especially sing town
Kazyan's 109 seems to be a decent analysis of a D1 posting pattern on Krazy.
Cantrip's interaction with Kazyan looks towny to me.

Nulls for the rest right now

2nd hasn't posted as much as Meuh, but it's hard for me to point out anything specifically wrong with them. I'm just getting a bad feeling regarding them, like they're not being sincere.
So I'm going to VOTE: Meuh for now, but 2nd is going on my PoE.

This might come off as a tad evasive but it's a bit difficult to do a full iso read when five pages show up overnight

My rough readlist would have to be as follows:

{Krazy}
{Kazyan}
{alisae, cantripmancer, italiano, 2ndchosen} - I know I said I didn't like 2nd but I took another look and I've decided I might have been suffering from confirmation bias. Still a null for me though.
{Marcistar} - bit skittish and defensive which I don't like, but it's probably a playstyle thing so eh.
{meuh}

These are Harumi and 2nd's only mentions of each other (and 2nd doesn't even directly mention Harumi) AFAIK. I wouldn't really be surprised of them as a duo? 2 newbies who null each other, have yet to actually interact and generally haven't said much about the other despite both being some of the people most pushed, while both pushing for me as a counterpush, I would see this as a potential scum duo. Could you explain the reasoning behind that statement? I didn't understand it, and after looking into it, I came out thinking they're actually a very real possibility.

[Meuh]

Harumi's non-commitment to the wagons I think also fuels the possibility of them being maf with 2nd even more.

@2ndchosen What do you think of Harumi atm?

[Meuh]

Just read the MtG colours thing, it's interesting! Analysis using it or trying to fit one of those descriptions could be nice to try in the future

[Meuh]

Zzz

[Meuh]

Meuh, putting aside Alisae's hyperposting, do you think 348 is a townie or scummy reads list?

I'd say the readslist is slightly scumleaning, which would reflect my overall read of Alisae.

First off, the post itself doesn't answer what you're asking for really, the focus seems to just be on establishing reads, with no particular attention to 2nd or Harumi.

Eir reads are like, very standard, except for like Kazyan ig, since I'd say they're generally more townread than e put them. I was hoping for e to have a bunch of hot takes and to throw everything I thought I knew about this game out the window, but that didn't happen.

The issue is that I simultaneously agree with eir reads but also find the reads scummy as they're just

too

standard, yknow?

I also would've liked a bit of reasoning for the reads to go along with them, but I don't think that's AI, just my general preference.

Generally speaking, I don't like the way e is clinging onto you, like in
#349 https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12602083

That and you being eir biggest townread gives me the impression that eir goal is to establish emself a solid position in the town by pairing up with you. The read could also be a result of knowing you better, thus having an easier time reading you, though.

[Meuh]

oh the wagon on meuh is literally just harumi and kazy

okay nevermind

why is cantrip still on italiano? Ohhh because he keeps planning to wall and then hasn't gotten to it.

I guess I should just stop posting or doing anything until cantrip gets to the point where he can actually flesh out his italiano read.

*no timer, but I will not post again until Cantripmancer does the post he wants to do on Italiano and either asks people to vote with him or changes votes* **

** unless I need to prodge

Marci's implied she wanted to hop on the wagon on me, although has shifted more towards Harumi. Alisae scumreads me too, although not incredibly.
(these might be outdated/a bit inaccurate, so feel free to correct me, Marci or Alisae!)

My wagon has decreased a bit as time went on though, yeah, it's not one of the

BIG TWO WAGONS

anymore, like it was a few pages ago.

Smh don't stop posting

[Meuh]

Harumi would also be my compromise vote, they're my second biggest scumread.

[Meuh]

oh the wagon on meuh is literally just harumi and kazy

okay nevermind

why is cantrip still on italiano? Ohhh because he keeps planning to wall and then hasn't gotten to it.

I guess I should just stop posting or doing anything until cantrip gets to the point where he can actually flesh out his italiano read.

*no timer, but I will not post again until Cantripmancer does the post he wants to do on Italiano and either asks people to vote with him or changes votes* **

** unless I need to prodge

Marci's implied she wanted to hop on the wagon on me, although has shifted more towards Harumi. Alisae scumreads me too, although not incredibly.
(these might be outdated/a bit inaccurate, so feel free to correct me, Marci or Alisae!)

My wagon has decreased a bit as time went on though, yeah, it's not one of the

BIG TWO WAGONS

anymore, like it was a few pages ago.

Smh don't stop posting

i don't have u as a scumread

As for actual reads
{Krazy}
{Italiano, Marci}
{Cantrip}
{Meuh}
{Harumi, 2ndchosen, kazyan}

I assumed this implied a slight scumread on me...

[Meuh]

ah yes so you got the same rhetoric one game therefore it'll always come from scum yes love it

What's the issue with them comparing your behavior to what they saw in that game? I don't see why you'd reply that way at all...

Being condescending doesn't prove your point or make them any less right, and probably isn't a great habit to have in newbie queue of all places.

[Meuh]

They're not saying you're scum for that one message, they're pointing it out as scummy behavior, since they've seen it coming from scum. I don't really understand the issue.

[Meuh]

ah yes so you got the same rhetoric one game therefore it'll always come from scum yes love it

This post seems very defensive and condescending, which I'd expect to see from scum trying to shut down a townie's argument by making them look dumb.

[Meuh]

Respond to it in a non-scummy and actually helpful manner? Especially since most of the people here are trying to learn.

[Meuh]

And you guess 2nd? What do you foresee changing then that’s different to now that’ll make you be comfortable voting for chosen now?

I mean, he's a null for me, so if I'm not getting my Meuh elimination and Alisae isn't happening, I have to compromise further. There's a specific reaction or lack of reaction from 2ndchosen1 that I'm anticipating, based on what I know of his emotional character from before Mafiascum, which will point towards being scum or not being scum. If the 13-hour days he's talking about conclude before the deadline, I'll have a chance to see the reaction or lack thereof.

As for results-based thinking...sure. Fine.

How would you feel about Harumi getting elim'd today?

[Meuh]

I can say for sure Krazy being interested in me isn't scum motivated
Kazyan is possible that he's a town who really believes I'm scum all of a sudden even tho I think him flipping from me being scum to suddenly being town then being scum is weird?
and also I like Meuh they seem more townie then Kazyan, chosen, and Harumi and I think at least 1 of those players has to be scum.

Why does one of us need to be scum?

[Meuh]

{Kazyan, Meuh, Chosen, and Harumi} all flipping town means I have no idea what is going in this game.

Well I know one of them are town so you never know

[Meuh]

{Kazyan, Meuh, Chosen, and Harumi} all flipping town means I have no idea what is going in this game.

Well I know one of them are town so you never know

I mean yes there has to be ATLEAST 3 town in those group of players, that's just math.

I thought there were 2 mafia members in this game? Regardless of that, knowing 100% that I am personally town does make the likelihood of none of us flipping scum more likely (although I think there's at least a maf member in the group too)

@meuh

These are Harumi and 2nd's only mentions of each other (and 2nd doesn't even directly mention Harumi) AFAIK. I wouldn't really be surprised of them as a duo? 2 newbies who null each other, have yet to actually interact and generally haven't said much about the other despite both being some of the people most pushed, while both pushing for me as a counterpush, I would see this as a potential scum duo. Could you explain the reasoning behind that statement? I didn't understand it, and after looking into it, I came out thinking they're actually a very real possibility.

is there any reason that harumi/2nd combo is more scummy for non-interaction more than Ethos(ali)/2nd, Cantrip/2nd, IVD/2nd
I've not really had strong interaction with any of them.

Pedit:

{Kazyan, Meuh, Chosen, and Harumi} all flipping town means I have no idea what is going in this game.

Well I know one of them are town so you never know

I'd wager at least 2 are, actually.

Well first off, the reason I singled out Harumi with you is because Ali said e didn't believe 2nd and Harumi were of the same alignment. I countered it saying that it was actually not particularly unlikely.
@Alisae still would like an explanation on why you believed that in the first place? You may have explained it earlier but I don't remember that happening.

From reading IVD's posts, I would say you and him is significantly less likely than the other 3, although you and Ali or you and Cantrip isn't particularly unlikely afaik.

Also my point in that post was that I knew one of the people, specifically, in the group is town, making the group go from 4 potential mafs to 3 potential mafs from my perspective.

[Meuh]

Why wouldn't Harumi/2nd be scum/scum?

well given that krazy said harumi was positioning themself to vote chosen I thought i wasn't svs but apparently I'm wrong and they're not at all interested in that or I'm just giving it too much credit?

Thanks! I wouldn't really think someone simply considering to vote on the biggest push in the game makes them unlikely to be partners with them, especially since it's one of their only mentions of that player. I'd honestly consider Harumi's take on 2nd to be potentially even more likely to happen as their maf partner than as town, considering outright saying they don't like the push could be something that looks pretty scummy down the line, especially with the likelihood of 2nd getting elimed today. Harumi could be taking a "best of both worlds" approach, where they simultaneously can say they generally supported the push if they do get elimed and putting their vote somewhere else, which could derail the wagon and save 2nd.

[Meuh]

when is D1 end?

Everyone has confirmed. With 9 alive it takes 5 to eliminate. Day 1 will end 10 days from now, at 11am GMT on the 20th February 2021 - (expired on 2021-02-20 11:00:00)

Good night!

[Meuh]

if meuh is scum I'll feel a little bad for killing that wagon but I feel like I never let a day 1 push on meuh go through

Thanks

[Meuh]

Alright Marci read time

I've played an online mafia game with Marci where she was mafia before, and from what I can gather from that game (and to some degree from her town games too), Marci is the type of player who would try very hard to keep their partner or herself alive. Marci in those games seemed to view short term gain (mafia with more numbers) as more valuable than long term gain (mafia members not associating, keeping the mafia townread). In the game, she almost got eliminated, but survived to the end of the day by fakeclaiming a PR role. That fakeclaim, while it allowed for a miselim, left the mafia a lot more obvious, and we were elimed on the next few days.(

That loss was also partly my fault but that's besides the point

So what does this mean? I think it means Marci would be reluctant to push for her partner if it put her at any serious risk which is why I think Harumi/Marci is pretty unlikely. Also I think that Marci might try to push to save her partner, even to a point where it might be obviously scummy like she could be doing here, protecting 2nd. If 2nd is elimed and flips scum, I think there's a lot to look into with Marci.

I'm pretty conflicted on Marci honestly, the general vibes are townlike, but the whole reaction to 2nd is just... off, it's weird. It feels like she's both distancing from 2nd and also pushing hard to get votes off of him, and those 2 things feel conflicting.

Marci you better not be scum I wanted us to carry

[Meuh]

I think it means Marci would be reluctant to push for her partner if it put her at any serious risk

Oops worded that poorly and didn't notice, I meant she would be reluctant to push on her partner if it put

her partner

(or the mafia team in general) at any serious risk of being elimed

[Meuh]

eh our fight never makes this dayphase not ending in either harumi or chosen

no matter how much I scumread you right now, I would never day 1 you here

I don't think me having you in PoE needs to be toxic either, you can just be "possible scum" day 1 and then I get to play "would alisae bus [x] buddy d1"?

I would ALMOST take a claim from harumi too, but I have Meuh and Italiano on Chosen and I don't have them on Harumi right now so Chosen is the slot that *should* claim here, despite the fact that I think almost all of us *would* vote Harumi too.

pedit: meuh does that sound about right to you?

Harumi would probably be the second best push for me yeah, although I agree that 2nd should be the one to claim here. I wouldn't be particularly surprised if Harumi was scum and 2nd wasn't, but I feel generally more confident in my 2nd read. Regardless, I'd love more activity from Harumi, cause they aren't really helping us progress atm...

[Meuh]

inb4 2nd claims masons with Marci

[Meuh]

2nd better flip scum, if he doesn't then i'll feel dumb

I'm like 63.29% on him being scum tbh

[Meuh]

Kazyan down kinda sucks, I was townreading them, at least it wasn’t a PR.

Ngl at first I misread the death post as saying *Krazy* was dead and got confused when they sent a message after LMAO

[Meuh]

No FN on my end

[Meuh]

Alright Marci read time

I've played an online mafia game with Marci where she was mafia before, and from what I can gather from that game (and to some degree from her town games too), Marci is the type of player who would try very hard to keep their partner or herself alive. Marci in those games seemed to view short term gain (mafia with more numbers) as more valuable than long term gain (mafia members not associating, keeping the mafia townread). In the game, she almost got eliminated, but survived to the end of the day by fakeclaiming a PR role. That fakeclaim, while it allowed for a miselim, left the mafia a lot more obvious, and we were elimed on the next few days.(

That loss was also partly my fault but that's besides the point

So what does this mean? I think it means Marci would be reluctant to push for her partner if it put her at any serious risk which is why I think Harumi/Marci is pretty unlikely. Also I think that Marci might try to push to save her partner, even to a point where it might be obviously scummy like she could be doing here, protecting 2nd. If 2nd is elimed and flips scum, I think there's a lot to look into with Marci.

I'm pretty conflicted on Marci honestly, the general vibes are townlike, but the whole reaction to 2nd is just... off, it's weird. It feels like she's both distancing from 2nd and also pushing hard to get votes off of him, and those 2 things feel conflicting.

Marci you better not be scum I wanted us to carry

I think Marci is very likely our scum here, although like others have said, Harumi and Cantrip are also fairly likely

[Meuh]

I think Marci is very likely our scum here, although like others have said, Harumi and Cantrip are also fairly likely

Okay then why dont you vote me? I (think?) I already said i'm fine with being next after chosen dies. If it'll help clear up confusion I don't mind.

Sure! VOTE:

Marci

I think this kill could've been one made by Marci, since the kill does throw shade on me in the form of Kazyan pushing me yesterday, and since I had already mentioned that 2nd/Marci was a likely duo, putting a dent in my credibility could be a good idea. No clue why Kazyan would be specifically seen as PR, though

[Meuh]

I think eliming Harumi here would make more sense, considering the general lack of content that could burden us in the long run, and the fact they were very distanced from 2nd.

I do think this is very likely a Marci mafia, the invocation of Kazyan's read on me feels off to me, and if she likes the "person who was killed's suspicion is likely mafia" thing so much, that'd make sense with a Kazyan kill, especially since I said I thought 2nd/Marci was very likely. The general tone of her latest post reminds me of the way she played the day she was caught for fake-claiming PR in the scum game I played with her, she seems very annoyed.

@Marci who do you think is our mafia here? or just general thoughts on Cantrip/Harumi could be nice.

UNVOTE:
VOTE:

Harumi

[Meuh]

Though I don't like how meuhs metaing me, when i die either meuh will feel very bad or very good (:
(also btw, did i miss it? didnt i ask meuh in 725 what would she do if its not me, did she answer at all? )

Meta supports my read, it's not the glue holding it together. The way you treated the 2nd wagon and your tone today is scummy to me and is something anyone in the game can look at.

Didn't notice the question, if it's not you then...

Spoiler:

...I'll keep playing the game normally? I'm not really sure what you're expecting me to answer, I won't really change the way I play if you're elimed and flip town. Unless you meant who I'd push? Cantrip or Harumi, probably, unless the circumstances change somehow.

[Meuh]

Do you guys still wanna massclaim at some point? Since we seem to be so close to just winning.

[Meuh]

Atm I’d say I’m leaning more towards scum Harumi than scum Cantrip still, the incomplete thoughts and just sounding less genuine in their posts than Cantrip are 2 of the things that convince me of that.

I think this is a great group too!

[Meuh]

I really doubt the TPR has anything meaningful to contribute at this point, but there's also no harm in waiting a bit longer to hammer.

Hopefully Harumi's scum!

[Meuh]

You don’t get notified when roleblocked, right?

[Meuh]

You're thinking we're in A, Meuh? If you were a VT, no, you would not be notified if you were roleblocked. If you were a tracker or a cop, you would get "no result." If you were a doctor or a jailkeeper, you would not get any indication you had been blocked.

Ah, alright! My idea was actually that if we could somehow confirm we WEREN'T in A, then if a Doctor exists, they could out themselves, the tracker could out too, then we have a safe check during the night which could help out a bunch. Only applies if we're in B2 though so even if we could confirm not in A, the odds of it would be 1/4 (since we don't have an FN)

[Meuh]

B3*

[Meuh]

Just vote a second time!

[Meuh]

I'm masons with Italiano :3

Me and 2nd are the masons though!

[Meuh]

I’m open to hammering Cantrip, but I don’t see a reason why we should be doing it now + I’d prefer a Harumi elim.

[Meuh]

Oooooooooooooh alright

[Meuh]

I feel pretty alright about em, yeah!

[Meuh]

Much stronger? No, just a bit. It fluctuates a bit but I'm more confident on my Harumi read so it's the one I'm pushing for.

[Meuh]

Are we hammering soon? Only 20 hours left...

[Meuh]

Wow, we did it! Nice to go 2 for 2.
"Meuh -- you're great! really fun playing with you! I felt like you were softing PR and trying to bait a NK, was this correct or did I not get what you were doing?"
Thanks! I also loved playing!
Oh and as for breadcrumbing PR, whether or not I looked like PR was never on my mind on day 1, although I intentionally fixated on the setup possibilities in a way to imply I was a PR on day 2. Glad to see it kinda worked!

GG everyone, this was a great game!

Also I just realized that EVERYONE involved in the early emoji debate was town, guess that really was meaningless

[Meuh]

Oh and for Italiano's claim, I was like 50% sure it was fake, since claiming as cop with no result there seemed like the incorrect play. The mafia would know whether they're in A or C, and since they knew they were in C, they would've just killed Italiano and poof, no more PRs for us. Tbf, I do think Italiano would've been a decent kill for the maf regardless, but if town's reads were off, that claim could've hurt a lot. If we had been in A, I don't think it would've been much better, either. You still played great though, Itali, my bad if this sounds rude!

[Meuh]

It was Italiano, the cop! We were in A3, so only cop as pr.

[Meuh]

C1* wow I really messed that one up

[Meuh]

Thanks Itali!