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[Andresvmb]

I feel like I’m stuck on Groundhog Day.

[Andresvmb]

I feel like I’m stuck on Groundhog Day.

you'll just never live that game down

Hahaha no I wasn’t talking about how that game happened. Looking back, I actually played okay. I don’t think I disappointed.

It’s more a comment on my own alignment.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll be focusing on this game tonight. Looking forward to catching up!

[Andresvmb]

lol nero and dwlee are absolutely howling right now

@Petapan you seem like a competent player - I’m not seeing this. Perhaps Dwlee is Scum (they had an awkwardly phrased response on Page 1, and I don’t disagree with you that arguing against DGB there is easy), but I think you’re wrong on Nero (or are expressing too much confidence Nero is Scum, rather). I’ll keep reading, maybe I’ll change my mind, but I think you’re coming out a bit too hot.

[Andresvmb]

osuka is town.

I don’t trust that you can make this statement with any sort of reasonable degree of certainty this early. You’re not Scum again are you?

[Andresvmb]

i think it happens a lot that people who talk more early r more likely town

especially ones who get into big discussions

Titus did you start townreading me or just start scumreading peta more?

Rathe I feel like you're evil.

Meh this slot really might just be Scum haha

[Andresvmb]

Andre is a lurksack but I expect him to start playing if he's town.

No u!

[Andresvmb]

both T3 and DW are calling Rathe scum but didn't vote him. You did and you want to see if they would vote there. In your mind, this accomplishes what?

Nero not going to lie - nom cubed seems like Town to me. I think you’re arguing the wrong thing. Getting reactions and stances is valuable. Scum also love to get involved from the sidelines in heated debates, but stay above the fray as much as possible, especially if it’s between two Town.

[Andresvmb]

lol nero and dwlee are absolutely howling right now

@Petapan you seem like a competent player - I’m not seeing this. Perhaps Dwlee is Scum (they had an awkwardly phrased response on Page 1, and I don’t disagree with you that arguing against DGB there is easy), but I think you’re wrong on Nero (or are expressing too much confidence Nero is Scum, rather). I’ll keep reading, maybe I’ll change my mind, but I think you’re coming out a bit too hot.

coming out hot is what day 1 is for, timidity is boring

I agree about not being timid. Hell, if you read any game of mine, you’ll quickly realize we play similarly. I was making a point that perhaps you’re being too aggressive. It’s quite possible you’re wrong about Nero. I understand what you’re arguing, and frankly Dwlee99 seems somewhat Scummy. But Nero Cain approached this whole thing by simply attacking the argument DGB was making (which, frankly, isn’t great), siding with DW on the point. I think you’re correct in that the position Dw took is an easy one for Scum. But bashing Nero for agreeing on the merits of Dw’s position doesn’t seem right.

Now, if I start SR’ing Nero I’ll let you know.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: osuka

[Andresvmb]

yea, saying there's likely scum in a group of 5.

C’mon now. The mathematical argument made by petapan there is correct. Pick out any random group of 5 people, you’re spectacularly likely to have at least 1 Scum in that group. The odds of this are easily calculated (~82% from the perspective of a Town player, assuming 4 Scum).

[Andresvmb]

I really haven't played much mafia

Is this a general statement or a statement about how many games you’ve played

recently

? Because your account is ~5 years old.

[Andresvmb]

Okay, thanks. And are those threads usually related to specific PRs or is it possible for vanilla roles to have access to PTs?

Oh I see that you’re actually inexperienced - played some Newbie games some years ago, and came back for this game. Is that a correct summation of your experience? Because you do

sound

inexperienced, but I don’t want to assume anything.

[Andresvmb]

@VFP I actually think you’re Town here - talk to me about osuka.

[Andresvmb]

@Rathe why do you think people are SR’ing you here? Do you think it’s play style driven? I haven’t seen any crazy takes from you so far, so I can’t say that I’m seeing it.

This Anya/Kyouko fight is fascinating haha I won’t make any assumptions that a Neighborhood definitely contains 1 Town, 1 Scum, but I think it’s fascinating that Anya decided to reveal that so early. I think it’s indicative of Town more often than not, but could be wrong.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, I’m going to go eat some ice cream and go to bed. I’ll be back tomorrow.

[Andresvmb]

I’m VLA until tonight.

[Andresvmb]

Sorry all, I have been out of it. Still VLA until tomorrow unfortunately - just recovering from a brutal week IRL.

[Andresvmb]

Nomnomnom is Town. If anybody tries to execute there, they’re Scum. Just so we’re clear.

[Andresvmb]

Why do you think nom is town without reading?

What makes you think I haven’t read? I haven’t fully caught up, but I’ve read enough. They’re Town. I’ve been surer about other things in games before, but I really do think that slot is just Town. I’m trying to decide which one of you is the Scum hiding behind the bad push still, and I’m not sure. I would say Rathe, but it’s not clear.

[Andresvmb]

Why does a bad push=scum? That's kinda a fallacy guy.

Why is nom town?

800

And you’re fighting a point I haven’t made.

[Andresvmb]

I have some catching up to do, but I will. I had this massive work project and it’s over now - next few days should be good.

[Andresvmb]

Unfortunately I’m somewhat impaired right now. I’ll post once I recover, most likely tomorrow.

[Andresvmb]

Okay, I’m actually going to spend some time catching up because why not. I’m recovered, and have the free time.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll start from the very beginning because I don’t remember much.

[Andresvmb]

@DW I’m still reading. It’s not the easiest game to read back to front. But I do think you’re Town if that helps.

[Andresvmb]

@Osuka I think you’re Town and I trust your accuracy. What are you looking to do?

[Andresvmb]

what r u seeing from osuka i think they r mafia

They’re confrontational almost always but here they’ve been correct. And that’s a big difference to a different game we played where they were Scum and as the Scum clearly started to get ahead, they shrank to the background. I need to finish reading but if you notice that maybe reevaluate but I’m getting good vibes there and I want to see what they think.

[Andresvmb]

Also, the only reason I think petapan is Town is because their reads have been so horrible that I don’t think they would have exposed themselves by NK’ing Nero. But you know what they say - there’s a lot of value in eliminating any threats against your slot.

[Andresvmb]

I don't want to think about the neighbors right now.

Dwlee - if you're ignoring the neighbors, give a few specific players you're looking to push.

My current vote preference:
1) peta
2) kyo
3) anya
4) one of the lurkers

Town reads/leans:
- DGB
- T3
- Nom

Confused by:
Nero

Btw I think this slot is worth executing now.

[Andresvmb]

There’s a really Scummy exchange between DW and DGB actually between 870 and 874. Can somebody tell me their thoughts on it?

[Andresvmb]

DGB calling me scum ad nauseam vaguely feels like how she's pushed me before as scum. If the hood is T/T then there's some basic scum motivation to want to push there.

The push on me is also sort of incomprehensible.

Caught for the wrong reasons.

DGB calling me scum ad nauseam vaguely feels like how she's pushed me before as scum. If the hood is T/T then there's some basic scum motivation to want to push there.

Six degrees of OMGUS.

I would actually execute DGB this game. I think this aggressive nonsense from them is just bad. I TR’ed the initial terrible strategy post and tried to move past them, but it’s hard given just how bad their pushes look reading back.

[Andresvmb]

VFP is Town, like, 100% of the time.

[Andresvmb]

I absolutely understand the Nero NK. So many players look completely incompetent from that flip. The nomnomnom slot (just look at 1036, 1050), petapan. But read stuff like 1055 and tell me that comes from Town. It most probably doesn’t.

[Andresvmb]

andres i hope we r town together again there are little people i kinda trust

Sorry Rathe I think you’re probably Scum here.

[Andresvmb]

You've literally offered to not only change your vote to nero which you think is town, but also vote WITH ME, a player you scumread, on a wagon you said you think has scum influence.
This is some hard openwolfing trip you have here my dude, not even mentioning the fact that examples are being provided to you from multiple slots lol

VOTE: VFP

Ugh this is horrifying.

[Andresvmb]

what if i believe there is no scum between you two

What if I believe they are both scum?

The amount of times I’m finding myself thinking that DGB’s takes are just literally unbelievable or bad is astonishing. I hate almost every single take they’ve expressed.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: DGB

Nah, this ain't it. I'm not seeing why people started SRing DGB. Their style of posts haven't changed at all since the same people town read them at the start of the game, even if you find their most recent posts, to quote you, "cringe"

Like yeah, if DGB flips Scum absolutely nuke this slot.

[Andresvmb]

Furthermore, this game has been open for a week and I feel like Andre has done nothing useful.

Hey!

To be honest, I overextended myself again. Too many Mafia games at once... and this one didn’t really need me? You’ve created enough content to really pour through and figure out Scum, I’m appreciative!

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: DGB
Okay let's flip this.

I might actually want to execute Titus first. There’s a good reason Nero seemed so intent on pushing there.

[Andresvmb]

Just let me finish reading I’ll give you a full sense of how I see the game.

[Andresvmb]

My read on DGB isn't about 17 and that never was the only reason. I think DGB has played like paranoid town. And honestly it just reads to me like they can't figure out if the VFP play is real. If you're paranoid town you're worried that VFP and nom are scum together and that if one gets limmed then the other gets suuuuper towncred. All I see DGB doing is laying the thought process out in the thread to argue that if one of those lims gets through we don't treat the other like conftown

I really do hate this with all my heart.

Look I’m going to explain why I so despise this line of argument once, and never again. Who in their right mind is worried that if we execute Scum, a different Scum player is going to get so much Town cred that they’ll never be executed? That’s just so absurd I’m having a hard time believing it’s a real thought. Executing Scum is already hard enough. I have seen Town players be executed after leading consecutive executions of Scum because people thought it was TMI. Like I’ve seen all kinds of crazy shit - there’s no way this is the thought of an experienced player. The game is easier if we execute Scum. That’s it. That’s the thought.

[Andresvmb]

I think my motivation for Mafia is meaningfully diminished right now. I’ll try and finish my catch up from yesterday but I don’t make any promises.

[Andresvmb]

if people are just gonna give nake votes and tossed off one liners what's the point

Don’t worry there’s definitely worse play that could be happening. Trust me on that.

[Andresvmb]

I mean my view on it is Anya claimed mason, which is a guaranteed town role for themself and everyone in that PT...but then outed herself and Kyo and voted Kyo...if Kyo is in that mason PT they would have to be a town-aligned mason since this is a normal. Then they both fall off the map, don't thoroughly answer any questions about it, and don't look to be scumhunting. Idk if someone can tell me why I'm thinking about this wrong but it's either a really weird dumb play or it's a botched and strange scum gambit we're just letting them not explain

This is just… completely absurd. Anya did not claim Mason. Never even came close to doing so. Like initially they accused Kyouko of polluting the Neighborhood thread, and that’s why they outted. I don’t understand what the hell this is even saying.

[Andresvmb]

Why is Anya the leading wagon again? Ugh this is probably another one of those games were the Town is going to mindlessly follow the Scum who are loud and leading the game nowhere and no one is going to think critically about anything. Amazing.

[Andresvmb]

Anya (5) : DrippingGoofball - T3 - Titus - ssbm_Kyouko - Dragon Of The West Exe-3

Like this wagon HAS Scum on it. Guaranteed. It should never go through. Who is Town and on this?

[Andresvmb]

Dwlee, if you're town, have you considered you're just wrong on us?

This is not how Town speaks, ever. Unless you three want to claim a Masonry, you would say that you’re Town and that you have solid reads. This overconfidence over multiple slots is not just unwarranted but irrational.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: T3

[Andresvmb]

i'm a mason but no one else is in the topic

is it possible to have only 1?

no one's showing up in the pt and i'm starting to think i really am alone there

unless they're playing a prank on me? i'll keep a lookout on the youtube channels to see if i appear on any

somebody finally posted in my pt but they're trying to convince me now that they're a wolf and i should vote for them even though it's a mason pt...

i'm just gonna claim it and say kyouko is the person in the pt with me

he's been non stop trolling me and saying he's totally a wolf and i should vote for him and i'm starting to believe him

VOTE: kyouko

How is this claiming Mason? The first post is clearly a joke, and everything else is really far from claiming Mason (which btw no one would reasonably do as Town).

[Andresvmb]

The way DotW is looking to shade Anya is so bizarre I would absolutely blow it up.

[Andresvmb]

Making up results is risky for scum as you could get cced creating conftown.

Yet they still did in your estimation? Your push makes no sense anymore.

[Andresvmb]

Is T3 self-voting?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: anya™

This is T3’s last vote.

[Andresvmb]

this doesn't make the neighbor claim inherently town but giving scum an announcing PR would be pretty dumb

Has DGB not taught you anything? Hahaha don’t make mechanical assumptions you can’t possibly be sure of.

[Andresvmb]

DotW claimed cop inno on dgb though.

Can you point me to this please?

[Andresvmb]

the case on anya was shit to begin with and never had substance beyond "she isn't posting and was trolling about the hood" which is convincing to the knuckleheads in this game but doesn't have a lot to do with actually being scum

I 100% agree with you there, which is why I’m fighting it. It’s a horrible “case” and a total stretch, and only makes sense from players that have literally never seen Anya play ever.

[Andresvmb]

shrug don't care, i feel the roles are reasonably predictable here and it likely gets sorted out in mass claim

Oh and there was some sarcasm embedded in there. Sorry it wasn’t completely obvious haha

[Andresvmb]

DGB + DotW + Titus all just insisting they are a town block gives me the heeby jeebies.

In case people ever need to come back to this to solve the game, I can only confirm DGB and myself as town. Titus is just a read right now

I interpreted this an inno result @andre

Well if you spotted this the Scum probably did too since it’s quite blatant.

I don’t think that comes from Scum, for what it’s worth.

[Andresvmb]

who do you think is trying to latch on to the wagon as scum? i think dgb is likely just doing dgb-esque things where she just tunnels lurkers for lurking. i get why you didn't like the overconfidence but that's probably entirely stylistic

I think Titus is Scum. If they caught the Cop crumb from DotW there with an Inno on DGB (seems likely), then attaching yourself to that group makes a lot of sense. DotW just seems way off to me so I understand it I suppose. Ugh I probably need to read this game again.

[Andresvmb]

I'm frustrated that my scumreads are just going "no actually we are all town." Nero could be dead for the WIFOM or because he was also pushing the exact three players. If Dragon has an inno on you though so be it I guess, I just hope he got a "town" pm and not a "doesn't have a gun."

Okay I’m beginning to think that DW is Scum here. I thought there was something odd about an exchange they had with DGB, but if DGB is the Town, then DW might just be Scum.

Okay I need to re-read the game assuming DoTW and DGB are Town, see what’s there. I don’t have the energy right now but it’s something I need to do. T3 as a vote seems fine for now though.

[Andresvmb]

@petapan can you tell me what you think of DW again?

[Andresvmb]

DGB + DotW + Titus all just insisting they are a town block gives me the heeby jeebies.

explain

I think you and DotW are evil and Titus is pretty likely to be a mafia babysitter enabler. That makes your town block all scumreads for me.

Maybe we just nuke this?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Dwlee99

I’ll place my vote here for now.

[Andresvmb]

I would argue there’s 1 Scum in {T3, DW}.

[Andresvmb]

And the way DW has defended certain slots probably opens up the game.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, I’ll come back later I need to re-read unfortunately.

[Andresvmb]

It’s not OMGUS since you’re not voting me. You also quickly let go of your SR of my slot once I said I thought you were Town.

[Andresvmb]

But that’s neither here nor there. I can change my read however I want none of my reads are solid since I have paid some attention and tried to read most of the posts but I’m really not sure where to place my anchor. I need a few solid TRs and the game becomes a bit easier. It still feels like we’re all flailing a bit.

[Andresvmb]

also i think dwlee-scum has maybe the least motive to kill nero out of anyone in this game tbh

anyone else i can see reasons for, but him? mehh

I think kills to frame players are a thing. I would never just assume this early that an NK was done for a specific purpose. You just don’t know.

[Andresvmb]

That's ridiculous.

shes scum dude

You were expressing this much certainty about Nero Cain and was wrong. You’re starting to make me think I am siding completely wrong here.

[Andresvmb]

If T3 is town he can try to push me on "well my arbitrary decision that there is one scum in these 2 players says Dwlee is scum now."

It’s not an arbitrary decision. It might look like that to you, but I usually express that of two slots that seem Scummy on the surface and are fighting each other, sometimes hard.

[Andresvmb]

If T3 is town he can try to push me on "well my arbitrary decision that there is one scum in these 2 players says Dwlee is scum now."

It’s not an arbitrary decision. It might look like that to you, but I usually express that of two slots that seem Scummy on the surface and are fighting each other, sometimes hard.

Have T3 and I fought?

Fighting is perhaps the wrong word. Strongly accused each other of being Scum. How about that?

[Andresvmb]

I’m inclined to believe Titus’ skepticism of the claim is Towny, not Scummy. I don’t think there’s much of an incentive to question that claim from a Scum perspective.

[Andresvmb]

Okay but, Titus also has a Claim. This isn’t the least bit consistent.

[Andresvmb]

You’re right though. I thought T3 had responded to DW for some reason, but they never did. I was talking about these posts from DW’s perspective:

VOTE: T3
Okay I'll buy it

I think anya, Kyo, and peta are town and so I don't think I see a single vote on scum in T3's ISO

He did flip between rathe -> nom -> chaos within the span of 4 posts at one point so maybe he hit scum in there? I want to see more from him and he kinda came into the end of day one without acknowledging Nero was going to hammer once he voted.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t know why I imagined some sort of argument between them. I think I was thinking about it in this way because of how opposite some of the reads seems to be between Titus/DotW/DGB/T3 versus say Anya/peta/VFP/DW.

[Andresvmb]

Now of course that DW spotted an “Inno” from DotW on DGB, their approach has completely changed. That I think is fascinating.

[Andresvmb]

Andre, given that there was no "fight" between T3 and I, do you still think at least one of us is evil?

Look here’s what I’m trying to do, maybe it helps you understand where I’m coming from. There’s clearly some strategic defending of slots going on here. You are strongly defending Anya, pushing T3. Titus is basically doing the exact opposite. You also think Titus is Scum. Titus is being strongly TR by two players you were previously pushing in DotW, DGB, who now have essentially locked themselves into a pair that either is Scum or the Scum will have to penetrate (I’m guessing the latter). So concluding that {Anya, T3} contains one Scum for example, or {Titus, You} have one Scum, or that peta could be aligned with say you and Anya, doesn’t seem that preposterous to me. The hard thing here from where I stand is to spot a weak point in the Scum Team and have the rest of the dominoes fall correctly. There’s also some White Knighting going on I’m sure. And Scum could be sitting on opposite sides of the argument on purpose. But surely there’s some Scum in here given how much you all are attacking each other.

And DW, your reaction to my SR of you is horrendous. Not going to lie. Gives me massive pings. You completely flipped on how you were approaching me (and now seem to want to appease me) even though I’ve been posting just like I was before, though maybe more frequently.

I am sure I have some stuff wrong here. I always do. But my radar isn’t that off either.

[Andresvmb]

And by strongly defending you aren’t all doing this explicitly. But by directing attention away from a slot attracting a lot of votes, Titus for example is doing it by default. They might not directly say I think T3 is Town, but pushing a CW strongly certainly achieves the same objective. T3 is notoriously hard to read anyway. And the Scum do seem to be pushing some of the harder to read slots here (Dunn, now maybe T3?).

[Andresvmb]

Why isn't Anya happening today? That claim reeks of being coached and flubbed.

WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF WOOF

Like this expresses a level of certainty that I’m always suspicious of. I have yet to find a player in this entire forum I think is like consistently right as Town, outside of like a few players I won’t name. There aren’t any here. petapan has already demonstrated that they don’t have the best reads. If they do, then please let me know and we should execute there because they were horribly wrong about Nero and they can’t say that some folks didn’t hint at it. I directly told peta they were coming in too hot and were probably wrong about Nero. Go find it.

[Andresvmb]

I think that your pairings are dumb and I think that the way you talk to me doesn't feel like you actually scumread me here otherwise you wouldn't be phrasing things like you're trying to tell me you didn't like the color palette I chose on a presentation.

You clearly haven’t played with me. I do sometimes go really hard against a SR, but only when I think it’s obvious. Ask T3. Otherwise, I avoid it. I think I’m decent, but I certainly don’t think I’m infallible. I always try and figure out what’s happening. But calling my pairings “dumb” implies that you have a better handle of the game. And I’m sorry to say, but you have basically already given up the fact that you can also be horribly wrong. Otherwise, why backtrack so hard when another player hints at a mechanical result?

[Andresvmb]

Ah actually, maybe osuka on a good day. Which is why I asked them to provide their thoughts. But they haven’t really tried to solve too hard and I’m somewhat skeptical there still.

[Andresvmb]

@DW I’m still reading. It’s not the easiest game to read back to front. But I do think you’re Town if that helps.

UNVOTE:
Okay Andre you have my attention

If your read of me here was genuine, I think you would have pushed me here. Like if you had thought I was Scum trying to pocket you or that it was me trying to defuse tension between us, I think you express it or keep your vote on me. Instead, you tacitly agree to stop engaging.

[Andresvmb]

I'm still leaning towards scum with that claim though.

Why? I think it would be weird for scum to go no actions done -> no result. Voyeur is also a weird role for scum to have.

The way DotW is looking to shade Anya is so bizarre I would absolutely blow it up.

DotW claimed cop inno on dgb though.

DGB + DotW + Titus all just insisting they are a town block gives me the heeby jeebies.

In case people ever need to come back to this to solve the game, I can only confirm DGB and myself as town. Titus is just a read right now

I interpreted this an inno result @andre

Not to come off as OMGUS but Andre's sudden read change on me is terribad. He was on those pages agreeing with my reads and now he is going back and trying to say I'm scum for probably being wrong on DGB + DotW on a reread. It also reeks of T3 counterwagon.

And look at this progression here. You’re obviously going from engaging me and trying to help me develop a read to pushing me because my read of you changed. But why couldn’t my switch be genuine? You’re pairing ME with T3 when I was happy to wagon there and push them to the brink, why because I decided to jump on you? Unless Anya / T3 are both Scum AND my Scum Partners (a stretch yes?), why don’t I just push the CW to start?

[Andresvmb]

But calling my pairings “dumb” implies that you have a better handle of the game. And I’m sorry to say, but you have basically already given up the fact that you can also be horribly wrong. Otherwise, why backtrack so hard when another player hints at a mechanical result?

I'm not even claiming I have a great handle on the game and I'm not trying to offend either. I think the concept of "one of {Anya, Titus} has to be scum" is just wrong in a game like this. If there was some TvS interaction I could understand but you're essentially doing the scumread version of sloppy vote count analysis. ("Well, I think that this many scum are on this wagon sooo kill this person")

I think you’re intentionally trying to discount my analysis here. I’m basically saying I think some of these arguments are either TvT or TVS. I SR some of you, so I’m thinking some of this is TvS. The phrasing might be different but that’s exactly what I mean. And what vote count analysis? I’m basing this entirely of the strength of the arguments you are making.

[Andresvmb]

^all of you are making*

[Andresvmb]

d1 read rate is one of the most overrated skills in mafia games

Funny enough, I agree. You know what isn’t though? Making yourself obvious Town. You most certainly haven’t achieved that here. And by trying to present so much strength behind some of your arguments, I think you come across worse.

[Andresvmb]

I was making analogy to VCA. Sure, some of them are probably TvS but which ones and why? You made it seem like you think all of the pairings you named have at least one scum in them, not that one of the pairings has one scum which is meaningless because of how mathematically certain it is correct.

Look where my vote is, look what pairings I’ve made, and how I’m seeing the game. I think I’m not just saying oh there’s TvS arguments here, I have no idea where they are. I think if you just think for like a second, you’ll figure out where my suspicions are.

[Andresvmb]

What do you think of peta's argument that I have produced no content? I think my reads are largely discernable.

I don’t think that argument holds any water, no.

[Andresvmb]

That's ridiculous.

shes scum dude

Like c’mon. This isn’t what you would typically expect from Partners. peta aggressively pushed Nero, and is doing the same here to Titus. DW you are aligning yourself hard with peta and to a lesser extent Anya, and pushing here. Are you going to argue all of you are Town? I find that really hard to believe.

[Andresvmb]

I think that haha they’ve made themselves way obvious by saying they’re not a Cop but that mechanically they know what the other person’s alignment is. It’s almost too obvious. I hinted at it based on how you three were behaving previously.

[Andresvmb]

That's ridiculous.

shes scum dude

Like c’mon. This isn’t what you would typically expect from Partners. peta aggressively pushed Nero, and is doing the same here to Titus. DW you are aligning yourself hard with peta and to a lesser extent Anya, and pushing here. Are you going to argue all of you are Town? I find that really hard to believe.

Please outline exactly which groupings you think have scum in them. I thought you were saying that you had pairings with scum in them, not groupings, which is why I thought they were bad.

Maybe to clarify - when I placed two names in brackets like {here}, I’m saying I think one of the two is Scum, most likely not both. There’s always a chance that it’s TvT.

[Andresvmb]

I think that haha they’ve made themselves way obvious by saying they’re not a Cop but that mechanically they know what the other person’s alignment is. It’s almost too obvious. I hinted at it based on how you three were behaving previously.

If so, doesn't it follow that either anya or ssbm is scum?

Probably Anya as Informed. It’s possible.

[Andresvmb]

That's ridiculous.

shes scum dude

Like c’mon. This isn’t what you would typically expect from Partners. peta aggressively pushed Nero, and is doing the same here to Titus. DW you are aligning yourself hard with peta and to a lesser extent Anya, and pushing here. Are you going to argue all of you are Town? I find that really hard to believe.

you are wack if you think scum interacts that way inthread

That is EXACTLY the point. You are misreading my argument. I’m saying Partners DO NOT interact that way. But the strength and insistence behind the mutual pushes leads me to believe that it’s not TvT, particularly since none of you have expressed even remotely convincing reasons to push so hard for an execution, or for example to defend Anya so aggressively. Maybe you think Anya is okay, but to say that everyone has bad reasons for pushing there? Please.

[Andresvmb]

Actually Anya wouldn’t have revealed the information as the Informed themselves - they’re most likely just a Goon if they’re Scum. But if the theory is correct, they might have been fishing for it.

[Andresvmb]

Actually Anya wouldn’t have revealed the information as the Informed themselves - they’re most likely just a Goon if they’re Scum. But if the theory is correct, they might have been fishing for it.

where is this informed theory coming from?

Anya’s first post is them claiming to be a Mason all by themselves. Now, indulge me for a second. They could be a Traitor Neighbor that’s Informed about a Masonry, and is openly hinting at it in their first post, letting the Scum Team know to go look for them. Unfortunately I really do think DGB/DotW made themselves way obvious. But that’s a theory yeah?

[Andresvmb]

These Large games have all kinds of whack mechanics - I’ll admit my thinking is way out there. But since I frankly don’t care haha I am just willing to put this out there.

[Andresvmb]

also andres my guy don't talk to me about that non-TvT dynamic when titus is firmly attempting to ride your coattails here when you showed her the slightest bit of leeway

You all have tried to pocket me in different ways technically. I’m like spewed Town by now. I just have to try and get something right so I don’t have to live until Endgame and have to suffer through another series of executions were no one listens to me.

[Andresvmb]

if u think anya is scum by play just argue that rather than an epic behind the scenes conspiracy where you've managed to guess the mod's exact setup design (something i don't even pretend to do)

I was the only person to correctly guess that a game could potentially have a Neighborhood with two Scum Traitors. I wouldn’t call it a giant behind the scenes conspiracy. And what is the Scum if not a giant behind the scenes conspiracy?

[Andresvmb]

like i'd be content to be the madman raging against the senselessness of everyone and getting ignored, in fact that's ideal for me

No you wouldn’t hahaha I encourage you to read the last Large game I played. I hated being in that game so hard.

[Andresvmb]

like i'd be content to be the madman raging against the senselessness of everyone and getting ignored, in fact that's ideal for me

No you wouldn’t hahaha I encourage you to read the last Large game I played. I hated being in that game so hard.

Here: https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12783976.

[Andresvmb]

Peta we have made so much progress together haven't we?

I'm skeptical of a Dunn wagon because I want DGB's head and also we have a Titus wagon that I'm fine with I think. The claim is weird and I believe the role at the very least. I found the "claiming who you would vig or protect is bad because babysitter" comment very strange given that Titus was one of the people in favor of people claiming targets at the beginning of the game.

VOTE: Dunn

I'm also good with Andre and actually feel he is scummier than Dunn

This is my favorite sequence this whole game.

[Andresvmb]

i think that's just falling into outguess the mod territory and you're using recency bias of seeing a scum hood to think a hood in another large must contain scum.

I don’t think I said anywhere that I think the hood must contain Scum. My vote is even among Anya/Kyouko.

[Andresvmb]

^isn’t even*

[Andresvmb]

You should be a basketball player with so much reach

I quoted three consecutive posts you made. Where is the reach?

[Andresvmb]

gna be honest i think the flip-flop on dunn is way more likely to be town-ai for someone who isn't a complete noob, b/c i've had sequences like that as town but rarely as scum

The flip flop onto a building wagon that flips Town you think indicates Town? I’m really not seeing that.

[Andresvmb]

Like you seem mad I ended up voting Dunn over what is now supposed to be a mech cleared slot and also suspected you when the post before mine is Nero saying why he thinks you're evil.

You’ve used Nero as an excuse to push somewhere more than once, and have now been wrong multiple times. You might want to stop doing that.

[Andresvmb]

Andre I just don't believe you believe I'm evil which is really making me think you're evil, y'know what I mean?

Nah I do think you’re Scum. I’m just open to the possibility you might not be. But frankly I think you’re south of null for sure.

[Andresvmb]

Not every Scum makes a lot of bad pushes of course, but you certainly have.

[Andresvmb]

I haven’t caught up but we’re definitely not executing cyrus based on the PR claim they put forth. That I’m fine giving a day. So @VFP find something else to argue, that’s not particularly convincing.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Anya

E-1

[Andresvmb]

2277

[Andresvmb]

ok now before i hammer who should i target?

Depends on the flip. DW if Scum.

[Andresvmb]

T3 might make sense if Town, but T3 might just be Town so maybe a bad idea.

[Andresvmb]

Rathe?

[Andresvmb]

You figure that one out haha

[Andresvmb]

Anya’s ISO is really uninspiring. I don’t know how you can be so sure they’re Town to be honest.

[Andresvmb]

the way my role works i can target t3 if scum kill me they die to if they are town we lose 3 town with that hammer seems risky

I was saying T3 might be Scum if Anya flips Town. Maybe. But I’m not sure, probably not.

[Andresvmb]

Andre I am extremely certain that their no result claim isn't a lie given the progression. Please listen to me.

I really doubt someone Rolestopped petapan or Roleblocked Anya. I think that’s nonsense. So I don’t believe the claim since clearly our boy Cyrus here who replaced petapan is not claiming Ascetic.

[Andresvmb]

So DW if you have a claim you need to make, now is the time. Because otherwise it’s very likely Anya gets hammered here before you can say anything.

UNVOTE:

Okay, to give you time.

[Andresvmb]

Stop begging and just say what you need to say.

[Andresvmb]

on top of neighbor i'm a 2-shot annoucing Voyeur

targeted peta last night

no actions

wait nvm i rechecked and Gypyx told me i recieved no result and my home intrusion action failed

i interpreted that as no actions on Peta when i first read it

i dunno why i'd be roleblocked when i was a claimed neighbour

maybe peta is wolf who was role stopped by a friend

These are the posts. And I really doubt anybody in the Scum thought oh there’s totally a Neighbor Gunsmith in the game. Like what. So either Anya was RB’ed (unlikely), or petapan was Rolestopped (which might make them Scum, and that’s a possibility).

[Andresvmb]

Andre stop voting Anya

I already Unvoted.

[Andresvmb]

If you're town you're being extremely dense here.
Pedit: it is clearly not beneficial here to say

It is if you want to not execute Town. You’ve hinted so heavily what kind of PR you are (and that’s your own fault) that if you’re Town, the Scum will easily figure it out.

[Andresvmb]

But it does matter I think for the rest of us that don’t actually know, because there is the potential here for a bit of a mechanical 1v1 that opens the game and you’re denying it I don’t know why.

[Andresvmb]

These are the posts. And I really doubt anybody in the Scum thought oh there’s totally a Neighbor Gunsmith in the game. Like what. So either Anya was RB’ed (unlikely), or petapan was Rolestopped (which might make them Scum, and that’s a possibility).

Again, it could be SSBM having a scum power and going for the assumption.
It could also be a town blocking Anya and feeling like a proper lemon!

Would you have blocked Anya there? I guess I shouldn’t assume since it really is difficult to figure out some choices people make, but still.

[Andresvmb]

But it does matter I think for the rest of us that don’t actually know, because there is the potential here for a bit of a mechanical 1v1 that opens the game and you’re denying it I don’t know why.

There's no mechanical anything. Anya is just obviously telling the truth about her role.

If she didn’t get a result, there’s a reason for it. Either petapan / cyrus is lying about their role (and they’re Ascetic), or someone was RB’ed/RS’ed. That’s what I’m hinting at.

Can someone quote me cyrus’ claim again?

[Andresvmb]

town vengeful combind vig babysiter. sounds awesome . its like given me a shotgun.

This right? Okay I’m going to admit, it’s a ridiculous Role.

[Andresvmb]

But, wasn’t petapan the one that was coming out about how we shouldn’t make assumptions about roles because the Mod likes combined roles?

[Andresvmb]

I just… why would the Vig/Babysitter/Vengeful ever come out and claim it? That makes no sense either. And they weren’t close to being executed at all.

[Andresvmb]

so, with regard to setup stuff, i would recommend looking at the roles in gypyx's previous two normal games:

mini 2169: random facts
mini 2180: fake peoples

gypyx is probably the most distinctive mod working in the normal queue right now, in that he really likes to play around with modifiers and combined roles and have atypical power distributions in his setups. expect claims to be wacky bullshit. here's a list of the town PRs in those games (avert your eyes here if you're DGB):

Town Combined Mailman Vanilla Cop
Role Watcher Neighbor
Town Ascetic Indecisive Doctor Neighbour
Town 1-shot Bulletproof Vengeful
Town Novice 3-shot Vigilante

Town Roaming Detective
Town Backup Roleblocker
Town Lazy Odd-night Tracker Even-night Motion Detector
Town Combined Roleblocker Friendly Neighbor
Town Disloyal Hider

in mini 2180, my scumteam was very easily able to exploit people making bad assumptions about the setup balance in order to get easy eliminations ("surely there aren't two investigative roles in the setup, right? that's too much town power"). i want to make sure that doesn't happen this game, so i'm informing people now so they don't go off making bad assumptions and getting weirded out by claims this game. you can bet your ass as scum i never out this because i'm the only one in this playerlist who's played in a game he's hosted, and keeping this sort of info hidden has significantly more benefit for scum as it allows people to make dumb assumptions about claims

Yeah here. So they were potentially angling for this?

[Andresvmb]

I just… why would the Vig/Babysitter/Vengeful ever come out and claim it? That makes no sense either. And they weren’t close to being executed at all.

It's not.vig.
They are claiming vengeful babysitter.

Read the claim again. It does say Vig.

[Andresvmb]

Okay that’s just Vengeful.

[Andresvmb]

And Babysitter.

[Andresvmb]

Alright well if we take a step back. In these setups, Mods for some reason seem to like to introduce trade offs. Yeah maybe you execute Scum but you lose a PR in the process that weakens your ability to mechanically win the game or cripple the Scum Team. Is that what we have here? If Titus is Scum, peta is Town for example, executing Titus weakens our position in terms of power (and stops the Babysitter from taking down some other Scum), but brings us forward in the game.

[Andresvmb]

Actually okay if Anya has had a lot of good votes, but not much influence, you block them, but you don’t NK them. That points to {Titus, Kyouko, DGB}. But, we know DGB is Town (or rather, have a strong sense for that.

[Andresvmb]

I’m VLA for the next two days, though I’ll try to read when I can. Just as a heads up.

[Andresvmb]

I’m at that stage where I’m so behind I almost don’t feel like catching up haha I’ll hammer whatever. I’m out drinking today so if anybody wants a real opinion I can do it tomorrow. Also, I’ll just ISO the top choices at this stage I can’t read all these many posts.

[Andresvmb]

You also think I plopped a vote on my Partner all of D1 for the fun of it?

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Kyouko

[Andresvmb]

You also think I plopped a vote on my Partner all of D1 for the fun of it?

What vote?

I was on Osuka from 328 all through the end of D1.

[Andresvmb]

The good thing is this game is being won completely in spite of me. So by all means carry on.

[Andresvmb]

You also think I plopped a vote on my Partner all of D1 for the fun of it?

What vote?

I was on Osuka from 328 all through the end of D1.

And how many votes did Osuka have all that time?

None. STD had just moved their RVS vote away from Osuka onto petapan. Rathe followed me right after.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Kyouko

Why this?

It’s a bit of a random vote amongst my POE, but I don’t remember them having much fire or caring about what was happening and well, in another game we played together, they felt different as Town.

[Andresvmb]

votecount 1.4

ssbm-Kyouko (4) :

Anya - DrippingGoofball - T3 - nomnomnom

Petapan (3) :

Nero Cain - Titus - Save The Dragons

Dwlee99 (2) :

Derek12 - Petapan

Osuka (2) :

Andresvmb - Rathe

Rathe (1) :

Dwlee99

Nero Cain (1) :

VFP

VFP (1) :

osuka

DrippingGoofball (1) :

ssbm_Kyouko

Not voting (2) :

Dragon of the West - Dunnstral

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2021-06-12 01:56:28)

, with 17 alive, it takes 9 to turn someone into a corpse

announcements

Reminder that it's encouraged to avoid using the term Lynch

flavor

video number 1095
summary - making fun of movie cliches
would recommend ? - yeah

Here’s the relevant VC btw.

[Andresvmb]

Also Nero Cain was right about nomnomnom (Vaxkiller’s predecessor). He pursued there super aggressively, and DW kept deflecting. Possibly something to look into as well.

[Andresvmb]

it wouldn't change much honestly. Sometimes scum vote each other to distance and it's not like nom stuck to the wagon. Are you implying that nom isn't scum b/c he voted rathe for a hot minute? eh, I guess you could make that argument.

Well he didn't just vote, he also pushed others to hop onto the wagon which had the potential to form something bigger. Point taken on him not sticking with it though.

Kyouko's just a better vote here considering the wagon and the pt stuff happening in thread

So much has happened in this game I just can’t keep it all together.

I’ll just sheep {VFP, Rathe} until I can fully catch up.

UNVOTE:

[Andresvmb]

nom and nero are tvt.

VOTE: T3

I’ll place my vote here for now.

[Andresvmb]

I think that whole exchange is key to solve the game to be quite honest. You’ll notice osuka comes in too and deflects away from nomnomnom. And I think it makes a lot of sense. Vaxkiller was a strong role for the Scum. That’s one worth defending. Nero was relentless, and the Scum were clearly pushing back and away. So yeah maybe someone give that whole argument a re-read see what you find.

[Andresvmb]

Nero can you pick a different person from your list to vote? Not feeling this one.

And you did the same thing.

[Andresvmb]

Nomnomnom is Town. If anybody tries to execute there, they’re Scum. Just so we’re clear.

I was also way off. Good thing I never claimed to be a good player.

Frankly I would execute myself just for this. Kind of embarrassing.

[Andresvmb]

Okay so {VFP, Anya, Rathe} are like almost always Town here. I want to sheep them. And I do think Kyouko is likely Town after re-reading some of D1 - they were dangled as an alternative there to Scum a lot.

[Andresvmb]

I think I need to shut up, vote, and let this game happen.

[Andresvmb]

Nah keep talking, I like your thoughts. Why can I not be in the sheep pile?

Same reason I shouldn’t be or T3. We defended nom3. That’s bad.

[Andresvmb]

maybe osuka n nomnomnom r mafia i dont know about dwlee could be but not sure anymore

And with this accuracy, I think Rathe is worth listening to hahaha

[Andresvmb]

Huh. ssbm is very scummy but I'm hesitant to lim him because of the neighborhood. Also Dragon of the West and osuka are townreads from reading the past few pages.

T3 has the added advantage of having defended osuka too.

[Andresvmb]

Nah keep talking, I like your thoughts. Why can I not be in the sheep pile?

Same reason I shouldn’t be or T3. We defended nom3. That’s bad.

I voted nom in the VFP 1v1 saga at least. Also swung the wagon to Osuka away from (who I think is town) Anya.

Honestly? I have you in the POE. You sound like you should be treated as Town but in key slots you were talking up Town and pushing slightly away from Scum.

But yes I do remember you aggressively trying to move the wagon away from Anya which buys you some credibility. And since Anya was the CW to Scum, it’s possible that they’re just Town. I don’t think it’s a certainty, but surely Anya shouldn’t be pursued at this stage and Anya also gathered a lot of early votes when nom3 was getting pushed so that’s all fair.

I would probably execute {T3, Titus, STD} in some sort of order and hope to win, but I haven’t even read STD closely and they’re tough to read, and Nero also called them Town. Somebody give me some thoughts on DoTW at this stage that would also help.

[Andresvmb]

But again, I have way too much incomplete information about this game and with the information we have, a full re-read is warranted. I’m just a bit afraid of throwing my weight around because I just haven’t been that solid this game. Though I’m glad I read both peta and Nero correctly more than anything else.

[Andresvmb]

Titus is most likely town.

So who do you think is Scum then? Outside of me of course since you’re voting me.

[Andresvmb]

If DotW is a cop claim then probably town otherwise maybe not.

They actively argued against that so that can’t be the reason to TR them.

[Andresvmb]

Dragons or raithe... or both.

You really think Rathe is Scum? I doubt it.

[Andresvmb]

What if I VOTE: Andres

I am fine getting executed here if you all blow this slot to smithereens as soon as I flip Town.

[Andresvmb]

@T3 why am I Scum?

[Andresvmb]

So nothing he's done makes you town-read him, good to know.

Well what makes you Scum Read me? Maybe talk me through how you’re seeing the game because honestly I find you null.

[Andresvmb]

I’ll have some more detailed thoughts tomorrow btw but honestly nobody seems to be trying super hard so I guess I’ll try to avoid being the default execution.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: titus

You want to know what the biggest giveaway is that osuka is not my Scum Partner? Forget my vote without much reasoning (I’ll be honest, I didn’t want to get into a pissing match with osuka, but the style of their posting didn’t change between them being Scum in the two games that we played where they were Scum). Look at osuka’s reaction to my vote, and then to Rathe’s vote. It’s clear that they didn’t want me to cast a light onto them, and thought that they could convince me not only to change my mind but drag Rathe with me. I think you can imagine how that would have played out if it was a distancing vote. But a careful Town would look for those things. You saying that you think gut is enough to justify thinking I’m Scum here for example didn’t seem right. You’re obviously moving now, but I think you should have looked through the exchange and not just my vote.

[Andresvmb]

This nonsense from T3 is the least Towny claim I have ever seen.

I think we shouldn’t give any room for garbage like that to pollute our read of the slot. Either claim appropriately or die.

[Andresvmb]

My reasoning is simple. The Jailkeeper is dead. If the Scum are going to target you based on “I have a role that might catch Scum, is powerful, but is not confirmable”, then they just will. It’s much better for us to actually know what we have now that this information is available, and be able to comment on it. There’s enough crumbs there that it doesn’t leave that many options, and I think the Town deserves to know.

[Andresvmb]

And if any of you are going to attack me for role fishing or some other nonsense, then bite me. They offered up to claim to weaken momentum against them, and have decided to do it in such an absurd way that to me it just seems like they’re trying to buy time with bullshit.

[Andresvmb]

T3 is town.

You really have no basis to say this to be honest.

[Andresvmb]

Look execute next I don’t really care. I spent about four hours yesterday reading D1 carefully. And I was planning on reading more of the game still today. I can post my thoughts condensed when I’m done so you have it and then you can do what you want.

[Andresvmb]

I think if Rathe, Kyouko and VFP consolidate onto one player, I think the rest of the Town should follow. These slots I am fairly certain are Town.

[Andresvmb]

STD and perhaps Anya I have as solidly Town also. And I think the rest of the game can all get executed as far as I’m concerned. At the bottom of my pyramid so far are Titus and T3. But I need to still finish reading to have all of the information.

[Andresvmb]

But anyway. I still need more time. I was trying to pour some time into this but I have some work I need to take care of and it’s just been busy.

[Andresvmb]

Honestly T3 should really get executed. Nero thought they were Town by meta but frankly the slot has a lot of horrifying takes D1. Has anyone even read the game all that closely? I know Rathe wanted to but they mostly just cleared Kyouko (correctly in my view).

[Andresvmb]

T3 is town.

You really have no basis to say this to be honest.

No I do, the gauche attempt to draw a kill as vt is one such basis.

Let’s agree to disagree for now.

[Andresvmb]

So nothing he's done makes you town-read him, good to know.

Well what makes you Scum Read me? Maybe talk me through how you’re seeing the game because honestly I find you null.

VFP has already gone into this a bit, but your push in 2817/2821/2823 that you're town because you voted osuka all day D1 is dumb. He was in 0 danger, and you avoided this game at the end of D1 while posting elsewhere. When osuka was actually eliminated on D2, you didn't vote for him because you town-read him. The leading counter wagon was Anya, which you disparaged in 1878 and then jumped on in 2315 to try and push through. Your tone in defending yourself today has shifted weirdly, you started with the osuka point earlier, got pushback, and switched to an AtE in 2830/2833. These two thought processes don't make sense to me together, showing how town you are because of your scum vote and woe is me, my reads are so bad. It looks like you're just trying to see what defense works best for you.

My reads aren’t bad. I just caution typically that my accuracy tends to go up significantly as the game drags on. But I do have some games were I get most of it right. And of course I have games were I shit the bed. Hopefully not as often, but it definitely happens.

The problem with your assertion that I was posting elsewhere and not here as if that’s a reason to SR me is that it lacks context. Did you read the game I was posting in? Do you know why I was so focused on a different game? Or do you just think that I should have divided my attention equally between a game in ELo where my vote and influence were decisive, and this game?

I’m not trying out defenses. Some games I play well in and I’m obvious Town. I had a few games pile up and I just couldn’t pay as much attention to all of them so I tried to focus at key moments. That’s what happened here. I don’t have to defend myself really - I just have to contribute in a way so that if I am executed, I can help after. I know there’s players here that will listen. Or at least consider my point of view.

And just so we’re clear, I recall TR’ing osuka because they defended Town in a way I didn’t expect. Yes, Nero was easy to defend in a way because they were obvious Town. But I do recall osuka bashing Dunn as an alternative, saying that it was a stupid execution. I forget the exact context and on my re-read maybe I can point that out to you, but that’s what I thought. I was wrong, and I expressed later that same day that I was still skeptical (go find my post before just saying that I TR there), but yes I never got around to voting for them because the day ended a bit earlier.

[Andresvmb]

I really dislike when people just bash shit as AtE. I am not directly appealing to anyone’s emotions. If I was, I would be insulting people for SR’ing me or whatever. The slightest show of frustration is not AtE. Like get off your high horse.

[Andresvmb]

STD is a bad vote. Sure nobody needs to listen to me but I really doubt it’ll flip Scum. Titus or DotW or T3 seem like vastly superior choices to me. But again, I need to finish reading. Unfortunately I have work to do.

[Andresvmb]

Also I would like for anyone here to explain why then I TR both petapan and Nero Cain, even though the Scum were clearly looking to shield nom3 at one point D1 by piling on petapan (go back and look at how, after the attention really shifts against nom3, and some voters some of which have to be Town continue expressing skepticism of petapan, that the Scum decisively drive back there around 636). But where was I? Not on either wagon. And nobody seems to be flagging that post from Titus. Or 593 from T3, where they see a wagon developing on Scum (nom3), who is the most important Scum PR most likely, and goes for a vote on petapan that contradicts an earlier take from them after the Team was clearly trying to focus elsewhere. Which is horrifying. Or how about the reads from DotW on 639?

The only reason I think DGB is Town is because of how much osuka disparaged their thinking at different times. But honestly, most of the early takes are bad. And DW? I read the first 500 posts slowly and carefully, and found a lot to be concerned about. Which is why I need to read in detail what happened with Anya, because when you read posts like 422, which I have in my notes as a terrible defense of nom3, and the exchange that follows with Nero Cain, it leaves a lot to be desired.

Rathe is never Scum. I don’t know why they’re in anyone’s POE. The scrutiny from the Scum and votes, some of the exchanges… it’s just never the case. VFP please go back and read D1 and tell me why the Scum ever pile so many votes there as an alternative to their players then. Stuff like 503 for example.

[Andresvmb]

That’s just not a post that osuka as a Partner is likely to make I would argue. But maybe I’m wrong I don’t know.

[Andresvmb]

Anyway, like I said, this game is long and I need some time. But I really do think the Scum are squarely among {Titus, Titus, DotW}. I have Chaos which I need to just look at carefully I haven’t had the time, and DGB. DW is an outside candidate for Scum. Everyone else is, I’m almost sure, Town. I would be amazed if STD or Anya flipped Scum, but maybe not totally shocked, but Rathe is just… never Scum.

Now, the ONE caveat I’ll give on Rathe (now that we know that it’s also Italiano), is that I know that as Scum, they can and do sometimes provides reads that are all correct. They literally had a solve in a prior game that just finished where they put only Town as solid Town, and left the rest of their Team as Null or Scum. It was incredibly risky, but that helped make me seriously think they were just Town. The accuracy here also seems uncanny, so that’s the only thing. But I just think some of the exchanges definitely lower the odds of this.

[Andresvmb]

among {Titus, Titus, DotW}.

{Titus, T3, DotW}*.

[Andresvmb]

If you think Anya is town and I'm evil you'll have to figure out why I spent all of yesterday saying Anya was a bad elimination and then randomly wagoned Osuka.

You clearly haven’t read what I wrote. That’s alright.

[Andresvmb]

I have Chaos as null* though they do seem to believe their case against me I guess.

[Andresvmb]

You have me as an outside candidate which is still meh

It’s not if you read your contributions in the early part of the game. I don’t know how many times I need to keep repeating that I need to read D2 closely too before I solidify my pyramid. Once I’m done maybe I’ve changed my mind. But I did think maybe it was helpful to get some of this out now.

[Andresvmb]

@Andres - unfortunately the bad takes in 639 were me being dumb, not scum.

That’s fine I defended nom3 like an idiot and I thought osuka was Town D2. It’s not like I’m not full of dumb takes. In my defense, I really wasn’t paying enough attention. I am now.

[Andresvmb]

I think the early game has helped me sort out some players as obvious Town. I don’t think I would ever vote for {Rathe, Kyouko, VFP, STD, Anya}. Based on some of the early play and takes. That’s all. Like I said if you blow up the rest of the game I would argue you probably win. But nothing is 100% certain.

[Andresvmb]

STD is a bad vote. Sure nobody needs to listen to me but I really doubt it’ll flip Scum. Titus or DotW or T3 seem like vastly superior choices to me. But again, I need to finish reading. Unfortunately I have work to do.

What makes him town?
In one or 2 sentences.

The self-meta mostly. I buy it. I would argue I’ve experienced it too to some extent.

[Andresvmb]

I mean the other part of that is that if Nero is right about his reason for scumreading Nom then Nom was trying to set me up to look scummy. If Nero was right for the wrong reasons then my defense just makes sense there (I think this is the case, cause I still don't think Nom was being nefarious in asking me to vote Rathe, and also he wasn't trying to get people off Peta for being his buddy because Peta flipped town).

If you think Anya is town and I'm evil you'll have to figure out why I spent all of yesterday saying Anya was a bad elimination and then randomly wagoned Osuka.

What if I think Anya is scum and you're not?

I mean this is possible sure.

Yeah I totally agree that Town have screwed up and defended incorrectly and the Scum have taken advantage. Hell, I’m probably a slight victim of this too. Which is why I am mostly trying to go about this by trying to clear the players I think wouldn’t have behaved the way that they did if they were Scum. osuka is easier to bus because they’re a Goon. If the Scum are in a bad spot and they need to change up their position, then you consider stuff like that. The Scum surely did not want to lose their Jailkeeper D1. Like that’s a given. No one is going to bus there. Which is why Rathe’s aggressive vote where they accuse nom3 of engaging in theater is in my mind unlikely to come from a Partner for example.

[Andresvmb]

The subtle defending of nom3 from Titus in a lot of different places D1? Now that’s a huge red flag.

I just want someone else to read it and tell me if I’m being stupid. And I’ll keep reading and maybe I’ll have some more takes and we can narrow things further. And then if you choose to execute me at that stage so be it then you can trust my POV.

[Andresvmb]

STD is a bad vote. Sure nobody needs to listen to me but I really doubt it’ll flip Scum. Titus or DotW or T3 seem like vastly superior choices to me. But again, I need to finish reading. Unfortunately I have work to do.

What makes him town?
In one or 2 sentences.

The self-meta mostly. I buy it. I would argue I’ve experienced it too to some extent.

Where have you experienced it?

STD and I just finished an ELo were I think STD succumbed to a read that they dragged for too long. I thing that if STD had trusted me (hard to do in that game probably), and had read my posts carefully then, I think we could have won. But I don’t fault them for that too much, I think other factors contributed much more, but I do believe that STD was perhaps a bit lazy at the end if I may say so.

[Andresvmb]

But I don’t fault them for that too much, I think other factors contributed much more, but I do believe that STD was perhaps a bit lazy at the end if I may say so.

Here:
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12832536

[Andresvmb]

If Titus is a babysitter enabler then she isn't evil imo. It's possible that scum were informed of the babysitter which led to her claiming it, but I'm not sure about it. If someone's a role cop/cop I would like them to check Titus for exactly that reason.

I don’t know why you would clear Titus entirely based on mechanics when play should clearly trump that. This conversation has clearly been had already.

[Andresvmb]

Can someone explain the nom wagon because I don't get it at all?

why don't you tell us instead why nom is a bad wagon.

Nom's active. I don't see anything awkward or scummy. That's enough on D1 to ask why there's a wagon. The wagon's too large to buy that it's all scum countering petapan so I am seeking to understand.

This isn’t even that subtle.

[Andresvmb]

Is the argument that nomnom is chainsawing for peta?

sorta. Though nom isn't attacking any of petas voters (except maybe DW). It's mostly that he made a big deal over getting t3 and DW to vote Rathe and now he's arguing that DW is scum for abandoning the 1v1 with peta and the whole thing just feels planed and manipulated to me. "here let me dangle this other scum read in front oh you." "oh, you actually took the bait, and you're scummy for it!"

though tbf I did accuse him of trying to break up the peta wagon by getting a Rathe wagon going.

This sounds like no matter what nomnom did, you would have found it scummy.

Perhaps you're thinking he's scummy independent of the wagon motions?

(We've just crossed into bizarro world btw.)

Or this too.

[Andresvmb]

I don’t think of Vigilante’s as roles that help the Town but that’s my own personal bias. I see them as negative influence. Most players just aren’t particularly good. So Vigilante’s will more often than not just shoot Town.

[Andresvmb]

VOTE: Titus

[Andresvmb]

The problem I’m having is that this game just has way too many posts. And a large part of the game is really dense.