Open 840 - Guardians of the Fortress [Game Over]

[Aristeia]

Like it's not just one of his beliefs that has to be wrong for him to react negatively to my offer, he has to be wrong on both his strongest townread AND his strongest scumread in the keep for it to blow up in his face and with how confidently he stated his reads in pushing for Luke over me I just don't see how he is suddenly backpedaling and making excuses.

[Aristeia]

Also if Lukewarm is scum, Implosion switching out of Keep makes very little sense with how much Implosion was townreading Lukewarm.

If Implo is town, why not let Implo stay in the keep and vote for Lukewarm to win? Why move a townread player like Implo into wall and move a limbait player like Pavo which is a poisoned slot into the Keep instead? The scum team would have to be actively throwing and worsening their chances of winning at BOTH locations.

[Aristeia]

What have you done this game with a pro-town motivation?

I organized a badass sort. Doesn't get more obvtown than that.

Can you explain this in more detail please?

also you didn't respond to this so I am reposting it.

Please let me know how your sort is "pro-town" motivated.

[Aristeia]

Also if Lukewarm is scum, Implosion switching out of Keep makes very little sense with how much Implosion was townreading Lukewarm.

I think I kept the strength of my Luke townread at least somewhat close to my chest.

again this does not matter unless Luke flips scum so there is no motivation for you to argue this point with me.

[Aristeia]

Like, I don't understand why you think I should think you saying "I'll vote Luke if Tanner tells me to" should mean anything. It's vapid, of course it's vapid, this is literally a game about lying :\. this is not you "making a promise" that you would then get to have your preferred choice of what happens in the other locations if it goes wrong, it's you saying "i will do the thing that i am obligated to do if i'm town if i'm told that i have to do it" like. duh???????

It creates a memory between me and him that he will think about if Luke flips red and it will give him the strength to kill the people I want him to kill in that scenario.

[Aristeia]

there is motivation because you said a thing that is false and i wanted to point that out

It only applies if Luke flips red which shouldn't really be something you are worried about.

[Aristeia]

I did not "fire back" with this in the way you're describing. Scum having reason to bus, and your alignment, were two completely different parts of the discussion. Don't conflate them.

fire back, respond, say, it doesn't really matter.

[Aristeia]

You saying "I want implo to die if Luke flips scum" in that context, to me, read as you saying that if Luke flips scum it would be reason to think I'm scum based on pushing him to be voted when I think that simply isn't how this setup works, especially given that Tanner's current preference was to resolve wall before keep. Correlating us in that way mathematically implies that you'd think Luke would be more likely to be scum (at least a little bit) if I flipped scum, so... you see the problem here, hopefully, given that Wall is probably being voted first.

I don't understand why you react so strongly if you think Luke is definitely green and I'm definitely red.

[Aristeia]

And regarding your stated willingness to vote Luke: words are not actions. And it's not like you have any recourse if you're scum and Tanner tells you to vote Luke.

What's even your point here?

If you're right and I'm scum you have nothing to worry about.

[Aristeia]

this is just, so, incredibly, vapid. this whole page.

Yea I agree.

It would've been townier if you just said "sure" instead of reacting the way you have but *shrug*

[Aristeia]

i feel like i've traveled to some alternate dimension where this is supposed to matter in literally any meaningful way.

What are your reasons for imag town over VP?

Why do you even care if you think I'm mafia?

[Aristeia]

there is motivation because you said a thing that is false and i wanted to point that out

It only applies if Luke flips red which shouldn't really be something you are worried about.

you: "if lukewarm flips scum, then my reads will change in ways x y and z, and also ducks are mammals"
me: "ducks are birds"
you: "i said that was contingent on luke being scum, why do you care about that"

:X

this is just absurd

[Aristeia]

contrary to popular belief, you actually are still allowed to be made a listmod if you've gotten any reads wrong before in any mafia games! I know, it's not common knowledge.

this is also absurd.

[Aristeia]

In the context of Luke/Implo flipping scum:

The things you are townreading him for seem trivially easy to fake.

Imag is a weaker 1v1 player than VPB

VPB loves 1v1s.

I don't think Imag-Scum goes to 1v1 if Luke/Implo are scum with him because Luke/Implo are both stronger 1v1 players than Imag, I think Imag ends up on the Wall instead.

In the context of Luke being scum:

Luke said something earlier in the day about Imag only being confirmed town to VPBaltar, Tanner noted it as a skip and Luke laughed it off. If Luke does flip scum this does feel like more likely to be a slip.

In the context of no flips:

Imag's play is more transparent than VPB in that his posts do not need further explanation.

Imag not hesitating to vote skews townie to me, VPB "forgetting" to do it feels like scum who is awkward and unsure of the "right" time to do something.

Imag's scum game is somewhat lacking, I've read his scum play and it feels kind of stiff? I think he is somewhat out of scumrange here.

As for VPB I don't like the way he answered questions and he's demanding to be townread for things that don't make sense to me and he's not explaining further.

He has the time to pop in and take potshots at me but not the time to answer questions directed towards him.

[Aristeia]

And just for unambiguity on that last one: I might be wrong on you. It's happened before, it'll happen again. And I'm more confident on Luke being town than I am on you being scum. It's something like you have 55% scum equity, Pav has 40%, Luke has 5%. Those numbers are nowhere near exact but you get the idea (probably if I was betting money on these I'd put Luke's odds of scum at much higher than 5% just because I don't really trust my ability to read people accurately in mafia games in general nearly that highly)

It's not just that you are wrong on me that makes me think you are scum.

I don't like how you said I ask questions that are "leading" and that do not help me figure out the game.

I think my questions are quite clear in exactly what I am trying to figure out.

When I ask you which of my questions are "leading" you don't seem to have a response.

[Aristeia]

Pavo, what are you doing to try to sort me?

I am asking this question because I get the sense that Pavo has focused around Luke and hasn't been really trying to figure out my alignment.

Something that he acknowledges and states is due to thinking my play is "strange"

I comment that I think he could just sort on the content and question me about that if he is uncomfortable reading my AtE for emotional tells.

Reading how people sort me is one way that I establish reads on the people interacting with me and I was somewhat lacking in that from him.

[Aristeia]

Personally, I think Tanner should be able to town read me easily this game

can you explain this a bit more? why should tanner be able to correctly figure out that you are town?

This question is still open, you can see the line of questioning it led to here:

Personally, I think Tanner should be able to town read me easily this game

can you explain this a bit more? why should tanner be able to correctly figure out that you are town?

Tanner has played with town me a shit ton. I'm not that hard to read.

Here is my town meta: Am I doing things with pro-town motivation? If yes, I am town.

What have you done this game with a pro-town motivation?

What have you done this game with a pro-town motivation?

I organized a badass sort. Doesn't get more obvtown than that.

Can you explain this in more detail please?

I want to drill down to exactly why VPB thinks Datisi should be able to townread him.

His answers feel evasive to me.

[Aristeia]

Ok but even if Implosion is scum, why would Luke switch Implosion out for you instead of Tooges or NumberQ?

Don't you think it's much easier for Luke to convince either Tooges/NumberQ to vote for Luke rather than you just from how much familiarity you two have with each other?

As a bonus it would leave your own limbaity slot in Wall where you are more likely to be mis-limmed...

I am trying to understand Pavo's mindset here because his mindset has to make sense to him as town for him to be town.

[Aristeia]

If Tanner is town, then I want to follow his instincts because they are much better than my own in early game.

How did you decide that town!Tanner's instincts are much better than your own instincts in early game?

From reading VPB's town!games. He is a somewhat arrogant player who likes to push his reads regardless of whether he is right or wrong in the past.

I felt the deference to Tanner to be somewhat questionable and it felt like sucking up to him.

[Aristeia]

The first two lines here I don't really buy as being alignment indicative rather than playstyle.

The third of these is probably the one that I'd potentially find convincing. I do think if imag is a bad scum player then that would lend credence to him being town here bc he isn't playing badly by any means. I just have a hard time gleaning much meaningful from his play.

The fourth thing here I actually view as kind of townish for VP. I think his sort of bravado has felt authentic or at least not inauthentic.

Do you have examples of games where VP lacks Bravado as scum?

[Aristeia]

And yeah I get that you have reasons for asking these questions. The point is just that I haven't felt like I've been able to clearly see that you're actually updating your read of the gamestate in response to them, rather than just asking them for the sake of doing stuff.

Do you feel any of the responses to my questions have been satisfactory enough to warrant me changing my reads?

[Aristeia]

One post that I do get sort of scummy vibes from imaginality from is his reads wall 195 that I think VP criticized some parts of. On the whole it feels very "I have to give some thoughts on everyone" rather than I think the way that town more frequently will naturally approach a game, which is that you get stronger reads on some players and weaker reads on others. Forcing everyone into lean town vs lean scum in the way he did here feels, well, forced. Take for instance the numberQ read - it reads like "well I'm making a reads list so i gotta put everyone in a read, gotta come up with something based on these two posts" where I think town would be more likely to happily slot him as "null, need more posts". Especially like, the exact formatting here:

numberQ
- only two posts, so not much to go on
-but I find this switch jarring, from #42"I was really hoping we'd talk about assignments more" to #64 "I'm fine not picking where I go. I have no real preference for which location I'm in."

kinda fits in with this post of him saying "only two posts, not much to go on" but then also feeling the need to say something about him. Other parts of the post feel kind of similar as well.

In context his readslist came after I asked him for "his list" and I only gave three names with no details attached. I think he easily could've just given me three names but instead he went over and beyond to respond to me with a full list with reasoning and I felt that seems somewhat +town given that scum could easily just not give a list or just put three names together.

[Aristeia]

I don't know his meta well, didn't mean to imply this was a meta read.

I don't understand how you can say someone having bravado is town indicative if you don't have meta on them

[Aristeia]

I do want to apologize if you think I am being overly harsh with you.

I guess I do not take criticism very well and I do want to get to the bottom of why you think I'm asking questions for the sake of asking questions.

I would think these questions would be interesting to you too if you were similarly uninformed as to the alignment of people like VPB and you would be similarly curious to get a straight answer out of him.

Instead you come out of nowhere and sideswipe me and it's absolutely infuriating.

[Aristeia]

My opinion of you doesn't meaningfully matter; I can hope this discussion will be useful for Tanner if he is ultimately part of the Keep decision-making process and that it's useful for whichever 1-2 of Luke/Pav are town but my opinion on Keep right now is "vote Luke" and, candidly, that's unlikely to change from this discussion.

It's not your opinion of my

alignment

that infuriates me.

It's the way you are trivializing my efforts to solve this game because it gives people like VPB an excuse to dismiss me with comments like "I'm obvtown because my sort is kickass"

It's you giving VPB a townread for "Bravado" that encourages him to hand wave my questions and give me garbage answers that are utterly meaningless.

It feels deeply uncurious, arrogant, and frankly ridiculous from you if you are town here which I suspect now that you aren't because you are unable to actually articulate why my questioning should have led me to have updated reads which you feel are missing.

[Aristeia]

my line of questioning to VPB:

Me: why should tanner be able to townread you?
vpb: because I am doing things with a protown mindset.
Me: What is something you've done with a protown mindset?
Vpb: my sort is kickass and makes me obvtown
Me: Explain how.


Tell me at which point I should have been satsified with his "answers"

[Aristeia]

This has been discussed at length in the thread. I didn't respond because it is a busy work question. My reasoning for organizing and why I think it is clearly protown given Tanner's now known alignment has already been stated.

Alright if that's how you want to play this.


Is there anyone else in this thread who can explain to me how VPBaltar's sorting is clearly protown?

[Aristeia]

but if Luke is scum I want Implosion/VPB to die.

was this ever explained *why* you thought so?

It's not just about the fact that Luke is scum that makes me think Implo is scum with him.

It is how Implosion is approaching the Keep in general.

I can see why he would think Luke is the towniest but I can't quite get to how he thinks Pavo is townier than me or that I am asking questions performatively.

It's an extremely uncharitable reading of my questioning of VPB. One that he can't back up when I dig into the details of exactly why he finds my questioning to be scummy.

When i describe my motives and reasoning he says those are logical and sound but its the lack of read updates that is scummy.

He says I should be updating my reads based on my questioning but when I ask him when this should have happened he seems to back off so I don't think he actually took the time to read thru my dialogue with vpb and actually evaluate whether I should be satsified with VPB's answers.

This is important in the context of Luke-scum because if Luke is scum here, Implosion can't just say "luke is the towniest" and let that stand. He also has to shade me as the scummiest in the Keep.

The reason behind this is how Implo thinks the Keep should be played; he thinks the town should decide who is scummiest and make that person vote. So if Pavo is collectively decided to be the scummiest, there is a real chance Pavo votes me instead of Luke and that will result in a town win despite all of Luke's efforts. Whereas if I am shaded as the scummiest he thinks I will vote for Luke as I am townreading Luke much more than Pavo.


For the VPB part, if Implo/Luke are scum, I doubt Imaginality ends up at the Gate - Baltar is a stronger 1v1 player than Imaginality and I think it would make much more sense for a Imag/Luke/Implo team to send either Luke or Implo to Gate for 1v1 rather than Imag.

Also if Luke flips scum, his slip about Imaginality being confirmed town from Baltar's POV would feel much more like a real scum slip.

Also the reasons for Implo to townread VPB feel extremely weak,

when called out he says something about tunneling on the dumb tell which doesn't make sense to me as you had just said VPB fake dumbtelled in a previous game.

When he said he townread the bravado, I asked him for meta and he said it wasn't a meta read which doesn't make sense to me. How do you townread personality if you don't have meta that says personality is AI for the person?

[Aristeia]

And yeah I get that you have reasons for asking these questions. The point is just that I haven't felt like I've been able to clearly see that you're actually updating your read of the gamestate in response to them, rather than just asking them for the sake of doing stuff.

Do you feel any of the responses to my questions have been satisfactory enough to warrant me changing my reads?

[Aristeia]

my line of questioning to VPB:

Me: why should tanner be able to townread you?
vpb: because I am doing things with a protown mindset.
Me: What is something you've done with a protown mindset?
Vpb: my sort is kickass and makes me obvtown
Me: Explain how.


Tell me at which point I should have been satsified with his "answers"

[Aristeia]

ok, Tanner, this might be kind of jumbled because it was kind of a vibey thing I was picking up last night as I was rereading, but I'm going to pull some of these posts between Ari and imaginality that just hit me as partnery or Ari trying to weasel into a power position.

We don't have to get scum here, we just have to find town. This is easy and makes me think even more that Luke is scum, because I know he thinks (knows) he can look townier than me.

?

If you think Luke is scum why wouldn't you just vote for me?

Do you think Luke is bluffing about voting for me to convince you to vote for him?

Luke does seem very earnest and honest though

These posts came across as buddying up to Luke and/or trying to leverage the fight between Pav and Luke to get a vote with a direct ask from Pav.

gosh it would really be quite cheeky of Luke to steal Tanner's spot in the keep and then pocket me and get me to vote for him.

mmmmhmm

Here Ari is doing her cutesy schtick with Luke.

I don't think I'm going to vote unless Tanner tells me it's ok to trust that person

Now Ari says she's not going to vote unless Tanner says so. (this is important in a bit).

In post 468, Aristeia wrote:

In post 463, Pavowski wrote:
We don't have to get scum here, we just have to find town. This is easy and makes me think even more that Luke is scum, because I know he thinks (knows) he can look townier than me.


?

If you think Luke is scum why wouldn't you just vote for me?

Do you think Luke is bluffing about voting for me to convince you to vote for him?

@Ari, it sounds from this like you think Pav should have the voting power in Keep rather than you or Luke, is that right?

This read to me like imaginality trying to nudge the game to put the deciding vote in Pav's hands, just as Pav and Luke were kind of calling each other scummy. In my notes, I described this as "seed planting". To me, the idea here is to try to set up Ari!scum the best possible chance to get the vote by leveraging Luke and Pav's distrust for each other. It's a subtle thing and I could be tinfoiling, but I really don't understand the point of imaginality's question. It's not scumhunting. So what's the point of it?

@Ari, it sounds from this like you think Pav should have the voting power in Keep rather than you or Luke, is that right?

I don't think of the Keep that way.

If I get to 100% sure of the solution I will not hesitate to vote.

This is how Ari responds to that post from imaginality...and this is kind of key because now Ari is saying she'll vote when she's sure of her reads. Well that runs in complete contradiction to just earlier when she said she would only vote who Tanner said. I think Ari is trying to sound pro-town by saying she'll let Tanner decide, but in reality, she is looking for whatever angle she can get to win.

Imaginality how prepared would you say you were for this 1v1?

This comment from Ari also struck me as weird. It's a complete softball meant to make imaginality look like he is some weakling against big bad VP. I don't see how this question is helping Ari determine alignments. Again, I would see this as Imaginality and Ari trying to shape public opinion around in each other in a positive way that helps the other win their games.

This is subtle stuff and maybe I'm confbiasing myself since I know imaginality is scum, but their actions toward each other don't read like there is town!Ari in the mix. It is coordinated and kid gloves.

VPB.

Have you ever stopped at any point and thought to yourself.

If Ari flips scum I am going to easily win the Gate because there's almost no way anyone thinks Ari/Me is S/S?

[Aristeia]

Like it's absolutely mindboggling to me how you could possibly think I am scum trying to shade the shit out of you and annihilate you.

Because I have been very clear that I am happy to flip first and let Tanner see whether my reads are coming from Town!Me.

So how exactly is my play scum motivated? You think tanner is going to look at me grilling the shit out of you and treating imag with kiddie gloves and then look at my red role pm and think that I'm playing some weird reverse psych trick on him?

Like your entire mindset is strange and alien to me.

[Aristeia]

the most infuriating thing about reading your meta is that you are completely capable of being this obtuse as town and it's quite tilting to me

[Aristeia]

you seem to think I am trying to make imag look better and make you look worse

but what is the point of me doing this if I am going to flip as mafia?

[Aristeia]

Serious question though Ari, you have both said you'll vote when you're ready and that you'll let Tanner decide who you will vote? So which is it? Also, who is scum in your game from your perspective?

If I am 100% sure I will vote without input/permission and leave final reads in the thread.

If Tanner wants me to vote for someone I will give final reads and vote however he wants me to.

Whichever happens first will happen first. It's not a contradiction.

I still think Luke is by far townier than Pavo. He is playing an exceptionally good game if he is mafia here.

[Aristeia]

It feels incredibly anti-wincon for him to be continually towncasing me without reservation over and over again.

The thought process that he applied to reading me makes a lot of sense for how he would approach reading me if he thought I was who he thought I was.

He is not hedging at all in terms of his read, really not leaving himself any backdoor to wiggle out of.

Comparatively Pavo feels more fluid and isn't really hitting some of the same notes. I feel like he volunteered to come to the Keep to lose because his slot is a bit poisoned.

Reading popcorn betw scum luke v town pavo, pavo lacks some of the conviction he had in that game and is more jokey/memey.

[Aristeia]

rh9 can you do a readslist with one of your cool charts?

[Aristeia]

tanner your adorable <3

there's basically no world in which it makes sense for you to post that case on VpB if you are both in the Gate together

[Aristeia]

well you r either 1v1 baltar

baltar is ic

or you are ic

your towncase on him is useless in all worlds

[Aristeia]

to put it another way

the point of a towncase on someone is to convince other people that this person is town

there is no world in which you need to convince others that Baltar is town..

[Aristeia]

yes thats why i said you are adooorbs <3

[Aristeia]

the post on why ari/imaginality are partners - i think something like that is difficult to fake

That post doesn't even make sense.

Why would scum!me make scum!imaginality's life much harder by hard-shading VPB and being nice to imaginality? It's absurd.

[Aristeia]

I would like Keep first as well <3

[Aristeia]

I would like Keep first as well <3

Why keep > wall?

I think you are town and I think if you are flipped as town we probably win this game.

In the event you are not town, I would like it to be known earlier rather than later as it would effect what I think is happening at Wall.

[Aristeia]

I think I've put in quite a bit of work regarding what is going on at each location. I would like Tanner to know it is coming from a protown place. Even if we lose keep I think there is some value in flipping here first.

[Aristeia]

The benefit of doing the gate first is that is where the most associatives will come from. Fingers crossed, Tanner votes out imaginality and town is then up a game with good associatives to win the keep.

What associatives from the Gate do you think will help us win the Keep after you are gone? You already have those associatives, what do they tell you?

Most strongly that Ari's scum equity goes up with an imaginality red flip.

It's not a slam dunk, but I think people think I'm a little crazy right now. Knowing for a fact I'm town will show that the arguments I'm making need serious consideration

This is probably the towniest thing you've said all game

which is great because it makes very little sense.

[Aristeia]

if keep is resolving before gate why wouldnt the scum in keep say that imaginality is town ?

[Aristeia]

ari, which one of vp and imaginality is scum, and what do you think about my points on imaginality's associate-case looking Not Good?

I think him wanting to be flipped first is a good look for him but on the balance everything else is quite disgusting.

[Aristeia]

because it literally doesnt make sense for scum me to have a massive shit fight with town him if we r flipping keep first like I want to.

[Aristeia]

and which imaginality also wants to

[Aristeia]

lets say we r in the world where i am mafia with imaginality.

which is the world he is proposing

how does it make sense for me to have a massive shitfight with him and ask for keep to be resolved

first

you don't really trust me, i think most people trust luke more

lets say you tell me to vote for luke/pavo

i refuse and out myself as scum

keep resolves in a town win

i show up as scum

vpb then easily wins gate since i am shown as scum

game over

does that really seem like something scum!me does?

[Aristeia]

ari, which one of vp and imaginality is scum, and what do you think about my points on imaginality's associate-case looking Not Good?

I think him wanting to be flipped first is a good look for him but on the balance everything else is quite disgusting.

Did you have thoughts on imaginaity's partner-case?

which post are you asking me about? can you just quote it for me pls?

[Aristeia]

how does it make sense for me to have a massive shitfight with him and ask for keep to be resolved first

when did you first ask to resolve the keep first? i was under the impression it was pretty up in the air which game is getting resolved first (and it still kinda is)

I don't remember

I do want to resolve it first though.

I don't really enjoy playing under pressure and I want you to see my thoughts are from town!me. I kind of think though you don't particularly care though.

[Aristeia]

Thinking about the first part of 971 about the Keep.

I think it's not a difficult read to make that I am never scum with VPB here.

Both scum and town Imag have a very strong reason to believe that I'm town here and want my game flipped prior to Gate as me flipping town would help them in their 1v1 vs Baltar.

What's strange is why even bother to analyze the differences between Lukewarm/Pavo. If you know I'm town, just hard push for voting for me in Keep or push for flipping VpB and using his flip to flip me in Keep. I don't see the need to really look at the difference between Luke/Pavo.

I'd like it better I guess if he simply said that Ari is never mafia here and we should flip her but he's not always going to think like me.


Looking at his wall analysis it doesn't really say much and is more or less hedgy gobbledygook to me and I don't think it makes a lot of sense to equate the RH9/NQ slots.

[Aristeia]

Because through my analysis, he has the greatest motive for swapping implosion and Pavowski.

So you're saying the scum in your game is NumbeRQ and you have a townread on implosion and pavowski?

[Aristeia]

Pointless spec

A good summary of your entire scum game.

this is probably the towniest post VPB has made all game

[Aristeia]

I guess he can be somewhat charming in a way if he's not being a dick to you

[Aristeia]

I know

he's reached a level of play so horribly inconsistent that I'm thinking it only comes from town talking out of their ass.

[Aristeia]

ofc not I would probably never re-evaluate if I was a Pooky alt.

[Aristeia]

VP why do you think Imagi wants to resolve Keep first?

[Aristeia]

VP why do you think Imagi wants to resolve Keep first?

Because he is scum and I may be right somewhere else in my team guess. I have given a much clearer set of reads than him.

If we flip keep first and I'm wrong on you, he can be like "see, vp trying to get a misyeet".

I also think keep is a very consensus first flip given the percentages, so it is a safe choice.

did you even read what he said about the keep resolution?

[Aristeia]

There's zero point in me reading a bunch of scum BS.

He's trying to kill you with pre-flips from Keep and you don't think that's relevant what type of pre-flips he's predicting to come?

[Aristeia]

the arrogance is unbelievably you

[Aristeia]

I think we should flip the gate first maybe since it is the most discussed and my reads will bear fruit when my alignment is public

Interesting to see this post just a few posts after I remind Tanner that flipping the Keep first would show if DArby/Pav is town which would paint VP in considerably worse light.

He's relying on Darby/Pav flipping town to paint you in a worse light.

And me flipping scum would make you look really good.

So if he wants Keep to flip first, he's banking on Me/Pavo both being town in Keep.

[Aristeia]

Thanks RH9 you are very sweet <3

[Aristeia]

Think I realized who Ari is. I'll reread tomorrow with that in mind.

your opponent has already preflipped me as town and you are still confused about my alignment

it's absolutely maddening

[Aristeia]

I think you don't understand my relationship with Tanner if you think he would ever trust me enough to ask me to be flipped.

[Aristeia]

You'll feel less stressed when you realise its because he's scum and doesn't want to consider you clear town because then they won't win the Keep.

I think it's more likely he's just a big dumb-dumb, I've read quite a few of his games hehe.

[Aristeia]

RH9 have you figured out who is scum in the Wall yet?

[Aristeia]

mmm

how tilted is lukewarm at imaginality in the scum pt rn?

[Aristeia]

It's ok you should share the fun with us instead!

Townies need laughs too!

[Aristeia]

VP Baltar just sounded really earnest about wanting to be flipped and that made me feel like he actually is town here.

Let's say VPB is scum,

He flips red, wins gate.

This more or less makes it that I am a shoo-in at Keep, I win keep.

Then he still needs the Wall player to win, which doesn't really seem like good odds for him if it's RH9.


Meanwhile you wanted to pre-flip the Keep but instead of just using my pre-flip, you wanted to use two different pre-flips to nail VPB and that's quite a stretch.

For example this post:

I think we should flip the gate first maybe since it is the most discussed and my reads will bear fruit when my alignment is public

Interesting to see this post just a few posts after I remind Tanner that flipping the Keep first would show if DArby/Pav is town which would paint VP in considerably worse light.

You're kind of relying on two different pre-flips at the Keep to bury VPB, you want Pav and me to both flip town - that would imply you strongly believe Lukewarm to be scum in the Keep.

However you don't express a scumread of Lukewarm -> which kind of makes no sense - in your analysis you had the Keep sequence as Ari>Luke>Pavo

It feels significantly like you are TMIing the keep pre-flips will bolster your case against VpB by pre-flipping me and pavo both as town.

I think you set up the associatives very well to win the 1v1 at Gate post Keep Flip but it's not really useful if Keep doesn't flip first. Hence when Tanner starts saying he wants to vote for you, you kind of get desperate and want to bring this information out into the light to bury VpB with. Meanwhile VpB apparently is too oblivious to even realize you're tmiing a double flip at keep without updating your scum-read to being one of Luke, he's still trying to "figure out my alignment" or whatever he's doing in his world up there.

[Aristeia]

it kind of sounds like you think Pavo will flip town and this will be another bullet you can use vs VPB along with me flipping town.

I'm not really sure how else you read what you wrote.

[Aristeia]

Which I guess really just makes Luke's scum performance even more stellar if he fake-slipped a TMI post of slipping you as "conftown" like

wow

Truly great play Luke <3

[Aristeia]

So a Keep flip introduces an outside element that can help to shift that.

Right that's reasonable

but the outside element you are counting on is for me/pavo to both flip town.

But you're not really saying the missing part, which is that makes Lukewarm scum.

So you're asking for a Keep flip without the right mindset behind the ask.

It's more about turning over our town cards to save your 1v1 rather than making sure Lukewarm-scum doesn't win the keep.

[Aristeia]

I think we should flip the gate first maybe since it is the most discussed and my reads will bear fruit when my alignment is public

Interesting to see this post just a few posts after I remind Tanner that flipping the Keep first would show

if

DArby/Pav is town which would paint VP in considerably worse light.

This post is absolutely not saying "I expect Pav to flip town". It's a conditional.

It's a conditional that you expect to happen...

You're saying the motivation behind VPB trying to flip first is to cover up the Keep results which will show that he's a baddie, which means you expect those results to be bad for him.

[Aristeia]

I think you're wasting your efforts to argue with me,

I don't actually have any influence on what happens in your mini-game

Tanner doesn't really listen to me very often, if at all, even when I am flipped town.

You should focus more on trying to show that VpB is mafia

[Aristeia]

in a world where imagi is scum

consider why he wants me to be flipped prior to gate resolution

it's not that difficult to figure out.

Have any of you even done meta reading on Imagi?

[Aristeia]

and if Tanner actually still thinks I am mafia with Imagi I guess I am happy to vote atp.

[Aristeia]

I am far enough into not really caring to not want to litigate this further.

[Aristeia]

it was his desperation to preflip Pavo as town and your desperation to flip yourself as town that was what made me rethink Gate

[Aristeia]

imagi knowing what the keep flips are is kind of a bad look tho?

[Aristeia]

I need to go back to my notes and see if I had imaginality-Luke-RH9 as one of my possible configurations

is this really relevant to anything? @.@

[Aristeia]

why do you now want to flip imaginality

what is going on

do you ever actually read what I post between coming in here to call me mafia?

[Aristeia]

you said vpb is 99.99% town? and that me/imagi was a scum team for ???? reasons and I am ready to resolve the game atp

[Aristeia]

is there something you think you will get if you stew over this decision any longer?

[Aristeia]

is there something you think you will get if you stew over this decision any longer?

i want to think i will, realistically i'm not sure it's going to happen.

%-wise, how sure are you on your reads of the gate?

I don't really think in terms of percentages because those are mostly made up.

I think about the information I have and I express what my view is.

I am at the point where I want to flip over things to see if I am right I guess?

[Aristeia]

I guess it's not completely outside the realm of possibility that Imagi-scum decided his game was unwinnable and decided to take a dive to try to induce me to vote for pavo-scum in Keep. He has pulled similar moves before. I just find it not as likely as the other view.

[Aristeia]

tonally he kind of feels similar to me in that he wants his flip to influence other games

it feels like he geniunely believes I am scum w imagi and his flip at gate will win the game because it will win gate/keep?

whereas imagi is saying the keep will flip in a way that makes him look good but he doesn't actually seem to care how the keep flips.

[Aristeia]

THEN i came up with a reason why imaginality/aristea is definitely 2/3rds of our scumteam here

Was this before or after reading their 1v1 last night?

after, it's a meta-reason that has nothing to do with the 1v1

basically, if imaginality is scum - why the fuck am i the ic, when i said i was town on baltar and scum on imaginality? the only reason that happens is if the team thought that winning imaginality v tanner is MORE difficult than winning imaginality v baltar. and i think the only way scum could've thought something like that is if both (1) they knew that my "i don't lose 1v1's" wasn't an empty threat and (2) they knew that baltar and i have history together and that he probably can read me better than rand. and i think ari is the only person here who should be aware of both of those things.

You rarely ever get mislimmed. Anyone who has done any meta research on you knows this.

Your playstyle is strongly divergent between town/scum when you become committed to a game, which you will be in a 1v1.

I don't think I am the only person who is aware about this.

[Aristeia]

i'm gonna go grab some fucking alcohol again i hate this game

is it me?

[Aristeia]

I'm just about ready to scream into the void.

i think there is a giant gap between where I am and where you are because when I read your posts its like you don't think I exist.

[Aristeia]

mmm that makes me feel better thank you <3

[Aristeia]

Do you just mean in terms of like, my opinion of the Keep? I'm basically just finding you (and Pav) harder to sort than Luke. And the point of Keep is to find one town.

I mean you apparently don't care at all about what is actually going on inside the Keep

[Aristeia]

like last night I just readflipped keep in my POV from Luke-town/Pavo-scum to Luke-scum/Pavo-town.

and you don't seem to care at all about it? You didn't even mention it. You're still waxing poetic about how Townie Luke is.

Here's the thing.

I am town. So if Luke is also Town, I am literally the only person who can possibly vote for Luke.

So like you kind of have to convince me that my read-flip is wrong for ~reasons~ but you apparently don't care?

But let's say your world-view is that you don't have to convince me because I'm scum or whatever, Pavo will vote for Luke ok cool.


Then Luke came into the thread and talked about how he wants to vote for me tonight and lay out a bunch of conditionals based on what the Keep flips are or whatever.

And you don't have a reaction to this either? You don't scream at Luke and tell him no stop! don't vote for her! she's evil! you are the one who deserves to be voted!



I just have a hard time seeing how you don't seem to care?

[Aristeia]

and that is kind of why i am lowkey terrified of ari being voted atm, like... oof

but i also know attempting to read ari associates post her flip is gonna be an actual headache

you know how yesterday i was shitposting about ari/vp team? bro

you can't figure out how my associatives work because I am town and not associated with anyone.

[Aristeia]

tanner if you actually can't trust me just tell me and I will vote for who I think is town

if that person is mafia you can blame it on me for having shitty reads

[Aristeia]

you have called me a coward like 5 times today

not saying i don't deserve it, but like, do you have to >_>

I think you are stronger and braver than you know <3

[Aristeia]

Napping diminished migraine. Thank you for your thoughts and prayers

I am glad you feel better

[Aristeia]

I'd give you a chance to follow through with the sweet things you are saying about me in the thread first luke don't worry I'm not a complete klutz.

[Aristeia]

I want you to know Luke even if you are just saying these things to pocket me I still treasure them very fondly and your posting has made me smile happily countless times so I do appreciate that <3

[Aristeia]

our host has left for the evening unfortunately

[Aristeia]

Well if we're both town all the credit would go to you for figuring me out as I'm not there yet <3

[Aristeia]

do i have to? >_>

like, my current idea for the keep, from town to scum, is luke>pav>ari but my confidence in this is SO LOW i would rather go to bed and hope the three of you manage to figure it out yourself

besides, i really do not want to be playing the dictator here

pedit: the fight is entertaining yeah

well if i'm the scummiest person in the keep just let me vote?

I mean it's not that difficult for you to say the word.

[Aristeia]

like I think I've more than done my part to help you figure it out

you still can't see it.

Why keep putting me through this? Let me leave.

[Aristeia]

Maybe we can be together in another life.

Honestly I think we would've had more fun if we you had come to keep with me.

I would've voted you days ago and we would be in the afterlife sipping wine and eating strawberries <3

[Aristeia]

ok so you're fine if I make the decision here right?

I said I'd let you make the decision but if you're unable to I will do it myself.

[Aristeia]

I'm not going to keep begging you to finally townread me, it's obviously not going to happen atp if it hasn't happened already so just tell me and I will get this right for the both of us.

Or I'll fail and you can blame me for messing it up.

I am happy either way with a resolution here.

[Aristeia]

Tanner will you let me go please?

[Aristeia]

ok

VOTE: ari

[Aristeia]

thanks for being strong for both of us luke <3

[Aristeia]

good luck with your game tanner

I'm not the smartest girl in the world

I think Luke's probably right about whatever he wrote because he did much more work than I did and he's quite brilliant.

Love you forever and I'll be waiting to see you on the other side <3

[Aristeia]

I hate this game so much

you were very convincing pavo <3

[Aristeia]

luke i'm town

I wouldn't troll you

[Aristeia]

um

if luke is scum then

wow

[Aristeia]

ari, would you troll me? like, i'm legit gonna be sad if you're trolling me

I can't believe you think I would lie to you pointlessly

I'm town you big klutz

[Aristeia]

I'm town

so if you're town too

you did the right thing

[Aristeia]

"let's play a game that is just three lylos" what is wrong with me

Tanner

Tanner

look at me

we are up 1-0

You just have to get this right at Gate and we win the game

and even if you get it wrong we can still win

Go with your heart I believe in you <3

[Aristeia]

Tanner if Lukewarm flips scum, I think the partner is Imaginality.

I'm not like 100% sure but it feels that way.

Honestly I kind of think Baltar is townie even if Lukewarm flips town?

I don't know I'm honestly pretty confused

[Aristeia]

baltar, how the fuck are you so chill right now, what the f

we're laughing at you in the scum pt together

[Aristeia]

well you wouldn't trust me so I had to take things into my own hands to teach you a lesson

[Aristeia]

a girl can only handle so many broken hearts

[Aristeia]

I actually self-hypnotized to forget I was mafia

[Aristeia]

fuck you ari for calling me dumb when you know I big brained your whole fucking scum team.

you do have the biggest brain dear

[Aristeia]

its ok tanner will be tinfoiling about whether we're a team together tommorrow so uh have fun with that I guess?

[Aristeia]

Okay. Hear me out. I think that Ari is actually trolling on being scum. 1567 and 1569 give those vibes. Maybe we are okay?

I want to vomit

Luke babe I'm actually town pls don't be sick <3

[Aristeia]

time to reread the whole fucking game tomorrow i gUESS

Hammer imaginality please. I will legit be mad if that scumbag is not killed.

you should definitely wait for flips to actually happen before you do anything tanner

[Aristeia]

I only trolled Tanner a little because I'm legitimately kind of annoyed he never townread me at all and I played my heart out for him.

[Aristeia]

I wonder if VPB is scum here who is trying to give off the impression he doesn't know I flip town

[Aristeia]

maybe Prism gave Pavo the wrong role pm

[Aristeia]

that might explain things

[Aristeia]

maybe Prism gave Pavo the wrong role pm

Don't do that

Don't give me hope

how is that even hope? it just means the game is compromised?

I don't think Prism would do that, she's so careful about everything.

[Aristeia]

he's missing all the good stuff

[Aristeia]

I usually don't enjoy post-hammer trolling

but I can see why people do it now

[Aristeia]

ok ok

final guess:

Lukewarm - Implosion - Imaginality


I'm doing this for fun.

Please don't actually blind-sheep me, do your own work.

<3 you Tanner See you on the other side my love.

[Aristeia]

if Lukewarm flips town you should probably throw out everything I ever wrote and just look at the stuff Luke wrote because he's like a genius at this

<3 you luke!!!!!!!!<3

[Aristeia]

Honestly wtf am I talking about there's no way scum!lukewarm votes me that makes no sense

Pavo you're such a huge troll making poor luke sick :<

[Aristeia]

Spoiler: For Tanner

[Aristeia]

i read the dead thread and ari, i am sorry, you were playing 5d chess with multiverse time travel, while i'm out here playing checkers x_x

I knew you would get there in the end dear. <3

Thanks for being a lovely host Prism!

[Aristeia]

Pavowski, did you and Aristeia realise that I was scum?

I think your first readlist was a borderline scum claim and then your later posting won me over.

You played extremely well!

[Aristeia]

On a related note, I thoroughly enjoyed playing this game with everyone even though the mechanics were not my cup of tea. You're all a delight and I hope to play with you all again soon.

I'll just chime in to say I also really enjoyed this player list, I think the dynamics between players made this one of my most enjoyable experiences on site (despite also being one of the most stressful, lol.)

Online mafia makes me feel really stupid and this game made me feel exceptionally stupid. I loved it

I think that time when Luke voted for me and we were so confused who the mafia was in the Keep was probably the funniest experience I've had yet <3.

You & Luke are sooooo cute together ~!

[Aristeia]

mmm you getting mad at me was really funny!!