Open 644: Stack the Deck - Game Over

[karnos]

I have to say that calling for a quicklynch also pings me quite hard. What's the rush? Day lasts two weeks. We should use as much time as we can to maximize our chances of hitting scum D1.

Just letting you know that this line is way worse than anything I've said regarding a quicklynch

Please do explain the town incentive to quick lynch. Time is a resource. Even if you are 99.99% sure of your reads on the guy sitting in L-1, you should still hold off hammering as long as possible to potentially collect more information.

Scum line by the way

Seriously I wasn't quite serious

Do you and ploben share a brain?

Ploben response after saying something scummy: I was joking

Dunnstral response after saying something scummy: I wasn't quite serious

[Dunnstral]

Alright I've been working on sorting my thoughts on everyone so far and here's what I think:

Spoiler: Karnos

VOTE: Ranger
Per my usual random vote policy of voting #1 on the player list.

Except...

Also I'm confirmed (not so) Innocent (mind like a) Child.

I don't see the mod confirmation. Claiming a role when no reason to claim it, and claiming a role that can be mod confirmed without the mod confirm? That seems scummy as hell to me.
UNVOTE: Ranger

VOTE: ploben

This is a bad post and is why I placed a serious vote on karnos as my entrance

Still think karnos is a good vote. Making a big deal out of nothing (the claim) mixed in with the sheeping and the way he made sure to vote ranger first all feels incredibly scummy to me and I can't believe I'm the only one who's going to vote this

Whatever. I think I go through this at the start of every game. I don't play to the established meta, so I must be scum. Then after a half dozen pages of random BS, a few people think I sound more town. Then some more back and forth, and someone insists they were right all along and I'm scum. In the end, I end up wasting a lot of time making defensive posts instead of actually scum hunting in a more useful way.

If you think I am scum because I am willing to reveal my RVS vote as the empty charade it is, fine. Go ahead, lynch a townie because he isn't playing the same way you like to play. In the meantime I'm going to look for behavior that actually is scummy, and actually has a scum motivation behind it, and vote appropriately. For now, that involves voting on proben.

Oddly defensive with just me seriously pushing him

ploben isn't really making much sense to me.

He makes a remark about being IC, in a jokey manner.

A few posts later he says it will be confirmed, not so jokey this time.

A few people vote him and call him out for his fake IC claim.

Now ploben is like "oh, it was a fake claim! if you thought it was real it's because at least one of you is scum!"

ploben, I think everyone voting you is voting you because it was obviously a fake claim, not because they thought it was legit.

I don't like the above events. I am not sure yet if I don't like them because I can see a scum motivation behind them, or if I just don't like them because there is an "ah ha I'm smart I tricked you guys" motivation behind them.

At this point he's parroting what others have said and pushing for an easy mislynch while trying to blend in

Mod must be a little backed up, he'll post it soon.

Does this really sound jokey?

Reach

Thought you were arguing that he was doing it as scum to be believable?

Based on the theory that

ploben

might have mistakenly thought the IC role was only revealed by mod when the player chooses to reveal...

As scum, serves two purposes:

1- with less observant townies, you might actually succeed and fake as IC, and avoid suspicion for awhile

2- could get the real town IC to instantly confirm as a counter claim, before you come back with "oh it was just a prank bro"

As town, it serves what purpose exactly? I can't think of one, sorry. It's just throwing misinformation around. It can't confuse scum, they already know who is town, but it could confuse fellow town. It's simply playing against your win condition as town.

Horrible reasoning, fairly certain it's coming from scum that just made up a reason to try and justify their vote or something

1- with less observant townies, you might actually succeed and fake as IC, and avoid suspicion for awhile

This is just a really dumb argument I don't know what to tell you

Dumb argument vs no argument at all.

I see a few (potentially) dumb reasons to claim IC as scum. I don't see any arguments in favor of it as town, dumb or not.

Care to make one?

Admits he has bad reasoning but doesn't go anywhere from there. OK...?

What he's doing/claiming to do not sure on that one yet, is a thing called Slayer's Gambit (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... 27s_Gambit) and is probably not a great way to go about finding scum but is a strategy that you can use.

Alright, that is just about the worst justification ever. LOL, it could be used for anything.

On reread this kinda looks bad

finding someone who is just plain scummy (like karnos)

Faking a claim- not scummy at all.

Skipping over RVS and going right to a serious vote- just plain scummy.

Is that really your logic? Or is it something else I did that made me scummy, other than skipping directly over my usual semi-random vote?

Puts a lot of emphasis on the semi-random vote when that wasn't the focus at all, looks like deflecting/doubt casting

I never "cleared" anyone?

You said I am not hunting mafia. I am clearly hunting ploben. You obviously implied that he can't be mafia, otherwise wouldn't my hunting be... scum hunting?

Not going to quote it all here, but I also find some of your phrasing to be a bit humorous. For instance, you call my theory on why a scum might claim IC "dumb", but then you later say that ploben's joke was "dumb"... so you are tacitly admitting that you do think it's likely he did something dumb... how can you be sure he would do the dumb thing you think he did rather than the dumb thing I think he did?

>Are you assuming that the rest of town will follow along with my push?

Nope. In previous games I wasted a lot of effort defending myself early on. I'm not going to do that this game. If you want to lynch a town player, it's on you, I'm going to focus on offensive rather than defensive play this game. I just wanted to be clear about my intentions, so that the absence of a strong defense isn't seen as some sort of admission of guilt- it's anything but.

>You're not contributing anything original and I'm not seeing genuine scumhunting

We can only lynch one scum per day, why are you so unsatisfied with the one I found? One interesting difference between us: I know your vote on my is against town- I know for a fact your scum hunting efforts have failed you. On the other hand, you can't know ploben is town. Either you are town reading him as town, in which case you could be wrong, or you and him are both scum and you are lying. I doubt the later case, but I certainly don't doubt the former as a possibility.

Responded to this earlier and it's full of holes

Karnos you are just wrong here

That is a matter of opinion, isn't it?

You know you could try to convince me, instead of saying "you are just wrong".

Are you saying that fake claiming a power role isn't a scum indicator?

Or are you saying that a blanket excuse like "I was joking" can be used to nullify any prior scummy behavior?

This is a really weird interaction between Karnos and Florestan. It looks like scum forcing conversation with another scum. It's just awkward. Karnos and Florestan both seem like they couldn't care less about figuring each others roles out, which is really weird to me.


Think I'll stop here, Karnos has been the most grabby, reachy scum I've seen in a while. I'm absolutely positive that karnos is flipping scum, and he's my top scum read.

Scum

Spoiler: Florestan

Pretty sure Dunn is town here.

Pretty sure Dunn is town here.

I can't tell if this is buddying from scum or what since you were clear last game and joined in way late and wrote big walls of text for everyone's alignment. It just seems really weird to see you just drop a one-liner "X is Y"

It's probably just that we're still in early early game but still I don't know if I expected like analysis on the gamestate from you or what

Thoughts on Karnos?

Okay, you have the clearest and most transparent thought processes this game outside of Chip dumbtelled as town. Even that I think you went back on so in a game of random IC shenanigans which I don't care about you are cutting through it best. You might be just a really good player but I'm going to keep you as town for now.

As I said thought the one liner "Dunn is town" was weird, the explanation was pretty good but I don't feel good about him only explaining when prompted to

Okay, you have the clearest and most transparent thought processes this game outside of Chip dumbtelled as town. Even that I think you went back on so in a game of random IC shenanigans which I don't care about you are cutting through it best. You might be just a really good player but I'm going to keep you as town for now.

You listed shadow_step twice

The lower one was the mistake.
Anyway!
{Shadow_step, Chip Butty, Florestan}
{karnos}
{duppin, BTD6}
{Alpaca}
{Dunnstral}
{ploben}

hmmm, after rereading I'm liking Ploben more and Chip less. Shadow I have an inkling how you got that read, but nearly every other read you have feels like BS to me. I've heard you have good reads so not the biggest fan right now. Dunn and plob should be higher, as should Alpaca probably.

As I pointed out the Shadow thing was obviously wrong so what's going on here?

Why should Alpaca be higher when they only have two posts...? That's a bit nitpicky and weird.
Also doesn't question himself being at the very top of the reads list. Which is weird in itself as there's really no reason to be hard townread by Ranger there.

It's also weird that he seems to deliberately ignore karnos when he should really be talked about in both of the quotes he was responding to.

Obviously because we are scum partners together and I don't want to have an awkward interaction with him.


I just can't read him.

Awkward interactions haha

Wait you mean like this:

Karnos you are just wrong here

That is a matter of opinion, isn't it?

You know you could try to convince me, instead of saying "you are just wrong".

Are you saying that fake claiming a power role isn't a scum indicator?

Or are you saying that a blanket excuse like "I was joking" can be used to nullify any prior scummy behavior?

Because that IS an awkward interaction as it looks like you're trying to force a conversation between scum. Karnos reaction to it is also really bad, and neither of you are trying to figure out each others roles.

Also there's really no excuse for having nothing to say on Karnos at this point

Overall Florestan is acting VERY differently from my newbie game where he was confirmed town. It's like night and day, and I'm seeing strong associatives between him and my top scum read.

Also he has his vote parked on ploben but doesn't really have a reason to be voting him.

Scum

Spoiler: Ranger

You listed shadow_step twice

The lower one was the mistake.
Anyway!
{Shadow_step, Chip Butty, Florestan}
{karnos}
{duppin, BTD6}
{Alpaca}
{Dunnstral}
{ploben}

I disagree with almost every read here.

How did you get a read on Shadow_Step on page 1?

Two sources.
First, mod error. Shadow_step replaced in for a slot who, as Persivul explicitly said, did not pick up their role PMs. If the slot were scum, then we wouldn't have had scum choose the setup.
Second, and using less controversial logic, 17 didn't look like an RVS vote on a scumbuddy.

so assuming thats correct what do you think of Flores townreading Dunn?

Eh, nobody's perfect.

Like I'm expecting ranger to come in here and say that list was a reaction test and post a real list

What people don't seem to realize is that my readslists are

both

real

and

reaction tests. That's the genius behind them, which Ranger imitators fail to understand. ^_^

The top part is just plain wrong as I mentioned earlier
Middle part is kind of strange too as no reasons were given for Florestan and I (and I believe she's wrong on both reads)

Incidentally, Ranger put Shadow Step twice in a reads list. It seems more likely for scum to do it because really there would be no way Ranger both strongly townreads and weakly scumreads him.

The second time I noted Shadow_step's vote as null.
Not scum, just null. It was nothing more likely to come from town or scum. You and duppin were and still are townreads.
When I realized Shadow_Step was on the list twice, I remembered who he was. That meant his null action, which did nothing to influence my thoughts on him one way or another, had no influence on his proper placing at the top of my readslist.

This occurred in Open 638, where Ranger included the moderator as a nullread.

And I said, multiple times, that it was not done with an agenda. It was a derp move. Not a scum move. I make mistakes in my lists. (In fact, you yourself note that in the process of making readslists, there's an agenda in mind. It's within my interests, as scum, to therefore

not

make mistakes! Because mistakes draw unwanted attention to myself.) They are not mistakes that hold any relevance to alignment. You'd know, given you

shot me

in part because I

had accurate reads

. I was legitimately scumhunting that game and I nailed your entire team. So the mistake I made there was, consequentially, just a legitimate mistake.

Honestly, it's like the latest rage in scumreading Ranger is in my lists. I think I almost preferred the accusations of "Where's Ranger? She should be posting by now if town." (...Almost.) It gets old. Fast. Very fast. This is not the first game it has happened it. It will not be the last.

It's weird to be defensive about getting scum read from read lists when it's basically all the content you've given

Kind of need more posts from Ranger to get a good idea as it can lean either way. Kind of scummy in general but notably I don't think Ranger gels well with my Karnos-Florenstan scum team (I know I know, pre-flip associations)

Null

Spoiler: Chip Butty

Am I understanding the setup right?

Town as 6 non-VT roles, which imlies Mafia chose 4 role-mods. The 4 Mafia role mods are: Change goon to Bulletproof; Change goon to role-cop; Recruit traitor; Change goon to JOAT. Implying that Mafia didn't choose daytalk?

If so, we ought to be on the lookout for attempts by scum to communicate to each other during the day...

Yeah, but check out the phase 2 role-PMs. 6 Town. Town gets 2 random role-mods, plus one extra for every Mafia role-mod. Implies 4 Mafia role-mods (6-2). Since we know what those 4 are, we can conclude that daytalk wasn't among them.

This is the town slip I was mentioning.

Aside from that Chip was played the genuine dumb tunneled towny role all day long and I'm pretty sure he's town

Forgive me but I'm not actually going to analyze all his stuff as I've actually disagreed with almost everything he's said all game and it's all tonal reads

I think his push on ploben is town vs town

Town

Spoiler: ploben

Gonna ignore most of the random ic stuff for this one and focus more on his actual content

What do you like about my push on you?

Your responses are short and to the point and confident. Outside of that it's a gut thing.

I didn't do what I did to make friends but to do exactly this, get this game rolling and hopefully draw out some good conversation. Also, in the likely event of my death at some point in this game these events should yield some good interactions with others and hopefully town can use that. This is my play here guys, straight up. Good, bad, or otherwise.

You think he faked it?

I just feel it's not genuine. I know it must sound silly trying to parse tone from text.

Now ploben is like "oh, it was a fake claim! if you thought it was real it's because at least one of you is scum!".

Source plz? Nice misrep.

I think there's a better scum lead...Ride or die Dunnstral.

VOTE: karnos

Overall I think this is just a towny post

Bonus points for following my vote

Mod must be a little backed up, he'll post it soon.

Does this really sound jokey?

Keep grasping at those straws.

As town, it serves what purpose exactly? I can't think of one, sorry. It's just throwing misinformation around. It can't confuse scum, they already know who is town, but it could confuse fellow town.

It's not meant to confuse scum, it's meant to give scum ammo to build a BS case to mislynch my town ass. Kind of like what's going on now.

This doesn't look like a partner interaction to me at all

Either you are town reading him as town, in which case you could be wrong, or you and him are both scum and you are lying

Don't buddy me so hard Dunnstral, they're on to us

Don't care for this though to be honest...

I'm honestly more worried about Florestan's change of heart on me, even though it's the correct read. He's also starting to distance himself from Chip.

Chip with these mod interactions is reading like scum trying so hard to look town.

Speculation: Mafia have day talk only and don't know who the traitor is, which might explain Chip. Or their recruited goon has gone a bit sidewise on D1. Plus I feel like if there is one (in a 2 scum setup) or two (in a 3 scum setup) active mafia members at the start there seems to always be a lurker taking it all in and waiting to setup their own play.

It's good that somebodies paying attention to Florestan

My feeling is if Chip is town he would seriously look back and maybe reconsider this whole case on me. Town doesn't have perfect info so town's game needs to be a game of reconsideration.

Scum Chip looks so much worse if he backs off now on his case on me. Especially since he has perfect info that I'm town and currently has Florestan and Karnos on me as well. It's 43% on the way to a D1 mislynch.

Oh yeah my top two scum reads are both voting ploben. Don't think this is bussing looks more like strongarming a mislynch.

Creating an association doesn't have to be a positive thing. Me and you have an association now, we are going against each other.

Buddying is where you are acting unnaturally friendly with someone.

True

Overall towny tone and responses I'd say

Town

I think covered the most of the important ones already, I'll work on everyone else later today

[Florestan]

Dunn I would wait until I start walling to try to read me, I've been skimming the last few pages so my thoughts will be a lot more coherent then.

[Dunnstral]

Noted

[Chip Butty]

Dunnstral response after saying something scummy: I wasn't quite serious

Actually, he said "Seriously, I wasn't quite serious". That's how you know that he is being serious when he says he wasn't being serious earlier.

[Dunnstral]

Chip you serious?

Don't answer that I already know

[AlpacaAlpaca]

why in the world would I put myself on the line to defend him and not either try to keep the mislynch going or just lay back, relax, and watch.

I'd say it's a misrepresentation to say you were "putting yourself on the line to defend him"
You ARE just laying back, relaxing, and watching so...?

He sounds seriously serious

[Ranger]

Care to explain the Dunnstral read?

In due time.

Still too early for explaining things here. (Alpaca will be, or already did, ask that same question about ploben, btw. You'll either see it soon enough, or have already seen it, depending. But this is also answering his request.)

[AlpacaAlpaca]

Care to explain the Dunnstral read?

In due time.

Still too early for explaining things here. (Alpaca will be, or already did, ask that same question about ploben, btw. You'll either see it soon enough, or have already seen it, depending. But this is also answering his request.)

[quote, Alpaca being stupid in another game]So Ranger do you think that Ploben is scum based on his IC claim or is it something else?[/quote]

[Florestan]

Hereyago Dunn, Florestan putting in shit ton of work. (I hate this meta, I'm active-lurking in my next game).

Alpaca-shouldn’t have mentionned this earlier, but w/e. 270 feels pretty towny to me. I think the read is bad, but it makes sense that he views people attacking his POV as scummy. N-t

BTD-Super ILoA until 259, 1. Is reasonable cause karnos was being stupid, 2. Eh, my thougts here are that yeah I don’t think it BTD being scared of town Ranger. However I hate the original meta argument. It is super streching and while the fact that he used it as town before is a good sign it still doesn’t make any sense to me. N-s.

Chip- still don’t like the super active RVS with no serious votes, but there was one semi serious so not the worst. Ugh that dumb-tell is super frustrating, it’s done well enough that it's not obviously scum so I probably wouldn’t lynch this today. He has a lot of semantics points, like the ranger vote/unvote thing. He spends way to much time talking about the IC and Ploben’s joke, but he could easily just be town so idk. Either null-scum or confTown.

Dunn-already went over this read, most perceptive person in town (until he scumread me of course). Town

Duppin- I like this slot, good analysis and I like the ploben read a lot. Null-town

Florestan-less analysis than usual, not the biggest fan , sheeping Dunn here top scum, like his reads though

Karnos-one of the people who harped on the Ploben thing which I’m super not a fan of + he was wrong for the majority of the argument. This feels like scum getting caught up on a single point, probably where I’d vote after catchup. Scum null scum

Persivul-decent content, town

Ploben-still don’t like that out of nowhere liking my push on him, based on how scummy the people that jumped on him, Dupp’s defense, town paranoia about me and chip being a team, all feel towny to me. I would say town but that initial thing was weird enough that its just null-town

(Dunn my defense is that while 225 is awkward and reaching, so is the rest of his iso in an equal fashion. Show me a non-awkward post and you have a point).

Ranger-the meta case is bull. That said her reads don’t make any sense to me. Apparently Ranger is god’s gift to town if she’s town and if that’s true I’m pretty sure she’s mafia since her stuff sucks. Null-scum

Scott-his catchup better be better than mine, null for now

Shadow-just the OGI tbh.

[Ranger]

I'm not saying she is lying, but I thought there was a possibility that what she said in Open 638 was unreliable when I had my read.

Except I told you both in the dead thread and postgame it was just a normal mistake.

VOTE: ploben.

[Ranger]

It's weird to be defensive about getting scum read from read lists when it's basically all the content you've given

I encourage reading me off of my readslists! I have no problem with this.

I take strong issue with people attributing mistakes in my lists as something other than just that!
It's like if I type, "Why would I do that as town?" when meaning to type "why would I do that as scum?" (this is something literally every player does and it is something they do as both alignments; if you say you haven't, either you're too new or you're a liar because I GUARANTEE you that it'll happen in your posting sooner or later, saying town instead of scum, or scum instead of town): it's something that was clearly an error, which once I noticed, I immediately fixed.

Some things are alignment-indicative.
For instance, if I post two readslists back to back, with explanations like, "Actually, I change my mind", "this is more accurate", or such? That's content.
"Whoops, that was a mistake, this is what I meant to say"...isn't. I have no incentive to lie about my reads. As town, if I tell you I made a mistake, I am obviously telling the truth. As scum, if I tell you I made a mistake, it is because the list I post second delivered the message I

intended

. In either case, my statement of making a mistake is still true.

Which is why, when I'm getting accused of this sort of thing across multiple games, it gets old fast. There's a

reason

I compared it to "Why hasn't Ranger posted yet?". When I say, here's not the first, I really do mean, here is not the first place that accusation has been made. So if I seem snappy about it, it's because I have very good reason to be grumpy about it.

Reading the content of my lists is what I encourage people to do.
But I encourage people to read the

content

of my lists, which errors are most assuredly

not

.

Now can we move on, or will I have to rant on this some more?

Apparently Ranger is god’s gift to town

Where

do

they get this information from?

I'm certainly not the one who preaches it.

[Dunnstral]

And this is everyone (except ben of course)

Spoiler: Duppin

Duppin thoughts on karnos? I see you're voting him from rvs, is that serious now?

Kind of. I think the reason for the push on ploben is ridiculous. This doesn't even have anything to do with my read on him, I just find it really questionable that people push on what was obviously a joke (no matter how you try to twist it) as a serious play, and even in that case I still don't understand how it'd be a scum play.

I'm leaning town on ploben. The only problem I had with his play was that he was implying it was a reaction test before, so I asked him about it but his answer was good. (#117)

Not really a fan of Ranger's readlist. Having both Dunnstral and ploben that low is a bit interesting. Care to explain the Dunnstral read?

I liked this from Duppin as it all aligns with what I was thinking at the time
Also it's just a towny response

Oh and I believe there is at least one scum on ploben's train. I think he is town and it's a very questionable wagon. Very weak reason and honestly just seems like lazy scumhunting.

I have a slight town read on Chip, which leaves karnos and Florestan. At the moment I find Karnos more suspicious.

@Karnos, ignore Dunnstral for a moment please. Do you have reads on anyone else?

I agree with this and like this as well

#117 isn't awful. He acknowledges he didn't do it as a reaction test, but it ended up being one.

The point of an IC is it gets modconfirmed, how could he possibly "fail to notice" this? It was obvious he was joking, take a look at his posts:

@Bulletproof Ben
Please post picture of you wearing Kevlar vest with MS website in background with today's date and/or role PM to confirm bulletproof status one way or another.

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I was reading you town with that previous town slip but now you're blatantly coaching your scum partner.

Regardless, I've got a red check on the replacement slot.

VOTE: Shadow_step

Also I'm confirmed (not so) Innocent (mind like a) Child.

I mean really, in what possible world is that a serious claim? He wasn't caught by the "modconf" thing, he was literally making fun of you when you said you would keep your vote on him until mod would confirm him. (by asking you if that meant that your vote would stay on him all day).

There's no way that was a serious claim, it was just standard RVS crap. There is NO reason for scum to pull off such a terrible play, but on the other hand it could be WIFOM, so it should not be considered alignment indicative.

Liking these responses to the ic discussion as well

Overall not much on duppin but I'm liking the tone and scumhunting that I'm seeing

Null-Town

Spoiler: BTD6_maker

VOTE: Bulletproof Ben

You are certainly not Bulletproof.

He absolutely could be bulletproof, although it would be for scum...either way your logic is flawed and you're steering town in the wrong direction.

VOTE: BTD6

I was looking at the Town list of roles. I suppose I am so used to seeing Bulletproof as a Town role that I forgot it was a scum role in this game.

Anyway, he is either not Bulletproof or is scum.

Didn't really talk about this earlier, this is either a town-slip or it's pretending to be one
Either way there's no way to really know so I'll just say it's null

@Bulletproof Ben
Please post picture of you wearing Kevlar vest with MS website in background with today's date and/or role PM to confirm bulletproof status one way or another.

Role PM? That's outright cheating!

Town doesn't get all 6 roles. If Mafia chose one bonus Town get 3, if Mafia chose 2 bonuses Town gets 4, and if Mafia chose 3 bonuses Town get 5.

If Shadow Step's predecessor Snubben was indeed scum, the other scum could have chosen the setup. In fact, Snubben could have received a Mafia PR and not given any confirmation beyond that.

Whole lot of talking about the setup and stuff, not really interacting with anyone at this point

Incidentally, Ranger put Shadow Step twice in a reads list. It seems more likely for scum to do it because really there would be no way Ranger both strongly townreads and weakly scumreads him. However, in the process of making a reads list scum have an agenda in mind, which could be hiding their partners or incriminating a Townie, and thus are more likely to make the mistake.
This occurred in Open 638, where Ranger included the moderator as a nullread. She was Mafia in that game, so I'm inclined to weak scumread her for that.

This is kind of weird in the context of his other posts, because he doesn't really push on anyone else and then he comes out with weak-ish reasoning on ranger (while ignoring the more pressing issue of her reads list being garbage)

Currently my top reads for scum are Karnos and Chip Butty. Both seem to be placing undue significance onto Ploben's joke claim. It is possible that they are both scum coordinating their efforts for a Ploben lynch.

VOTE: Karnos

This is L-2. I am trying to get pressure on Karnos as a vote on Chip Butty would not accomplish much at this stage.

Okay, waiting for updates to install on a computer so I have a few minutes to explain.

1- The L-2 vote is the perfect jump-in point for scum. Scum doesn't want to be seen starting the wagon, and scum certainly doesn't want to be seen hammering. This in itself is a minor point, obviously every lynch must pass L-2 at some point, but the fact he announces it as L-2 just rubs me as a scum trying to push a wagon while acting careful.

2- BTD's ISO- seems to be coming out against Ranger in #171 #172... every scum player soon realizes Ranger is a threat, could have been testing the waters to see if he could get someone else to vote her. Fake townslip in #14.

3- Nothing original, just jumping on the wagon.

4- A personal understanding I have of BTD's play style. In my brief time here, 2 of my games were with BTD. One game we were both town, and in the other we were both scum. In both cases I found myself making very similar arguments to him. I think his style of play leads him to the same general conclusions as me, most of the time. Yet here he is, coming to just about the exact opposite conclusion as me in this game. I wonder why? Simplest explanation is that his play style is still the same as mine, but his victory condition is not the same as mine in this game. I am town, he is scum, thus the difference.

1:

I was genuinely scumreading you

This is the fact which you are ignoring. I was not simply jumping on the popular wagon, but was reading you as scum because of what I perceived as overly pushing Ploben for something trivial that could clearly be just a joke.

2: This was not based on Ranger being a "threat" to scum. It was a meta thing. Ranger was scum in Open 638 and made a similar mistake. She claims it was completely NAI and just a random mistake that can happen to anyone but the only word for that was from Ranger herself in a game she was scum in. I'm not saying she is lying, but I thought there was a possibility that what she said in Open 638 was unreliable when I had my read.

3: Again, I was genuinely scumreading you. I placed my vote on you (the wagon) rather than Chip Butty as my vote would also (in addition to showing that I scumread you) place pressure on you. Even though I said it was for pressure, it still works as any vote now brings you much closer to a lynch. What would have been L-2 is now L-1 and what would have been L-1 is now intent to hammer.

4: We do seem to have rather similar play styles, however similar play styles can frequently lead to different conclusions as in this game. If everyone with the same play style played the same way each time then scum could use it to lead people to lynch players using different methods based on that person's play style. (They still do it, but this would ensure a near-100% win rate).

This game is moving fast, and I am fairly busy at the moment. I mostly only have time to skim posts. When I free up a little, I can analyse everything in depth.

I like this post though

Pretty sure I just need more from this guy, might also have troubles reading him anyway

Null

Spoiler: AlpacaAlpaca

Just caught up and when I first read the Ploben thing I completely dismissed it as a joke because of the brackets and fun things inside them and was pretty surprised when people took it seriously. What he's doing/claiming to do not sure on that one yet, is a thing called Slayer's Gambit (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... 27s_Gambit) and is probably not a great way to go about finding scum but is a strategy that you can use.

Game theory, kind of a disconnected post not really interacting

Ranger
Is that list town to scum top to bottom?

Guess.

Well I mean usually when I've seen these lists before they go town on top and scum on the bottom, so assuming thats correct what do you think of Flores townreading Dunn?

I have no idea why he asked this question
Like I don't see the reasonign or motivation or where it came from beyond "Flores is high on the list, Dunn is low on the list"
Even then what does he gain from asking this...?

Kind of a scummy question imo

why in the world would I put myself on the line to defend him and not either try to keep the mislynch going or just lay back, relax, and watch.

I'd say it's a misrepresentation to say you were "putting yourself on the line to defend him"
You ARE just laying back, relaxing, and watching so...?

Sorry I might not have constructed that post correctly. I also think its a misrepresentation that I put myself on the line but thats what Shadow said I was doing and I was trying to show why I wouldn't have posted that with that kind of mindset. Also I know I haven't been posting much I am attempting to juggle a lot of games at a time since I love this site and I am just getting used to working out a lot of games at onec in my head however from now on I will try and post a lot more.

Alright this clears things up for me and general towny response

He hasn't really done much of anything yet, think it's too early to read into that so for now:

Null

Spoiler: Shadow_step

VOTE: Ranger

Can't innocent child choose when they want to be revealed as conf town? Like the day- 1, 2 or 3 etc. Or does it happen on day 1 by default ?

I'm actually feeling good about Chip Butty being town so far

Wanna explain why ?
Don't tell me it's because he is moving the game forward and is pro town bla bla bla

The traditional Innocent Child is mod-confirmed as Town-aligned from the start of the game, although this has begun to fall out of favour as it can be a bit boring for a player in this situation.
A more common variant of the Innocent Child is not confirmed as Town-aligned until they send the moderator a PM telling them to do so. Thus, they can stay "undercover" until they need their innocence to be prove


From wiki ^^

Seems I've played with the more common version.

Started out with a slight scumread from these because shadow wasn't really engaging anything important (other than the chip butty question which is fair)

@Florestan
How do you feel about a Chip Butty lynch? No votes on him yet but I'd support it.

@BTD6 AND Shadow
Confident in a scum read somewhere to unpark your RVS vote? I think those are the only two RVS votes in play.

As a matter of fact, yes.

Just caught up and when I first read the Ploben thing I completely dismissed it as a joke because of the brackets and fun things inside them and was pretty surprised when people took it seriously. What he's doing/claiming to do not sure on that one yet, is a thing called Slayer's Gambit (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... 27s_Gambit) and is probably not a great way to go about finding scum but is a strategy that you can use.

I didn't like Alpaca's entry.
He tried to passively dismiss the case on you, it looks like he reads you as town but did not state it explicitly to avoid suspicion(I think).

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Alpaca

I would really like to lynch this guy

Currently my top reads for scum are Karnos and Chip Butty. Both seem to be placing undue significance onto Ploben's joke claim. It is possible that they are both scum coordinating their efforts for a Ploben lynch.

VOTE: Karnos

This is L-2. I am trying to get pressure on Karnos as a vote on Chip Butty would not accomplish much at this stage.

This is the scummiest single post I have seen in this thread. I can go into detail later, busy at work, but I'm sure any town player can come to the same conclusion as me if you just look at what BTD wrote above, his prior posting history in the thread, and the ongoing situation.

Ploben is certainly still on my radar as a potential scum, I don't like a lot of his posts, but I'm going to reconsider things.

UNVOTE: ploben

This backtracking is really scummy.
This reaction especially after you were put on l-2, makes it worse.

If you don't have a better place to move your vote, then why unvote?

These posts feel more towny though, and I need to see more content before I get a better opinion

Null

Spoiler: Scott Brosius

The ploben IC stuff has given us interesting reactions that's for sure. The act itself is null.

VOTE: Ranger
Per my usual random vote policy of voting #1 on the player list.

Except...

Also I'm confirmed (not so) Innocent (mind like a) Child.

I don't see the mod confirmation. Claiming a role when no reason to claim it, and claiming a role that can be mod confirmed without the mod confirm? That seems scummy as hell to me.
UNVOTE: Ranger

VOTE: ploben

Out of all the votes, this is the softest push on ploben thus far and seems like scum pouncing on what they view as a potentially easy wagon.

Then dunn prods him about why he actually thinks its scummy and karnos ignores responding to some useless point from Chip. Alright reading further he does finally respond in 75, but still reading scum. The challenge ". Go ahead, lynch a townie because he isn't playing the same way you like to play. " doesn't read as genuine.

Vote: karnos

karnos/dunn does not feel like town/town back and forth. Noted in case one flips, subsequently I'm reading dunn as town.

Duppin thoughts on karnos? I see you're voting him from rvs, is that serious now?

Kind of. I think the reason for the push on ploben is ridiculous. This doesn't even have anything to do with my read on him, I just find it really questionable that people push on what was obviously a joke (no matter how you try to twist it) as a serious play, and even in that case I still don't understand how it'd be a scum play.

I'm leaning town on ploben. The only problem I had with his play was that he was implying it was a reaction test before, so I asked him about it but his answer was good. (#117)

Not really a fan of Ranger's readlist. Having both Dunnstral and ploben that low is a bit interesting. Care to explain the Dunnstral read?

You're kidding, right? #117 was awful.

And why are you insisting that ploben was joking when it is clear from his follow-up posts where he says the Mod will do the conf later, etc. that he wasn't? And it is straight after that that he starts to backpedal.

You still don't understand how it would be a scum play? Really? Let me spell it out once again: ploben fails to notice that IC is to be modconfed and claims it in such a way that he can back out with a "joke" defense if someone counterclaims. If nobody counterclaims then he gets stands to get some Town cred out of it. Later, when caught by the modconf thing, he tries that joke defense but it gets shot down by karnos, so he switches to "reaction test". When

that

inconsistency is pointed out, he switches again to the frankendefence in #117, a hybrid of the two.

How is he getting towncred out of it if nobody counters? That's exactly what happened in this game, ploben has hardly gotten towncred.

I like this first post as he calls out karnos for responding to useless stuff

Out of all the votes, this is the softest push on ploben thus far and seems like scum pouncing on what they view as a potentially easy wagon.

If you replace "ploben" with "karnos" in that sentence, you get an accurate summary of your post:
"Out of all the votes, this is the softest push on

karnos

thus far and seems like scum pouncing on what they view as a potentially easy wagon."

How is he getting towncred out of it if nobody counters? That's exactly what happened in this game, ploben has hardly gotten towncred.

He stood to gain Towncred if his claim was believed, but since it wasn't, no Towncred. It's not rocket science.

Do you think Chip is scummier than Karnos? It's early in the day so I'm not sure why that wouldn't accomplish much. Why announce that you are voting for pressure when that pretty much undermines any pressure you hoped to gain?

Attacking the only two guys who are pushing to find scum? Looks like an easy jump-on.

How about contributing some independent reads of other players? And your posting rate looks a little like lurking without lurking at this point. I mean, two posts and it's just "Oh yeah, I'm siding with ploben against Chip and karnos..."

This post is weirdly defensive. I never attacked you I simply asked BTD why he was voting Karnos if he thought you were scummier. The game has been open for just a few days so his statement that a vote on Chip won't go anywhere is curious since there is plenty of time left. I really didn't have much of an opinion on you until this post that seems a little too reactionary for me not even suspecting you.

There is no believing or not believing the IC claim. It is a mod-confirmed role. You don't get towncred by claiming it, you are either mod-confirmed town or not mod-confirmed town. Regardless, this IC semantics discussion has been distracting but gave us a nice jumpoff point for actual content.

As for my posting, I was gone over the weekend and read up last night. Instead of making an assumption based on a post number, read the flow of the game.

Saying I'm siding with ploben against you and karnos is also a misrep (karnos yes, you no). As I previously said in this post I didn't have an opinion on you until this post (you can go back and check all 2 of my posts), but now that you are overreacting, I'm feeling more confident in this vote.

Unvote
Vote: Chip Butty

Eh

First reactions make me think he's town but I need to see more

Null

[Chip Butty]

Persivul-decent content, town

So, our Mod is pro-Town? We should have this wrapped up pretty soon, then.

[Dunnstral]

(Dunn my defense is that while 225 is awkward and reaching, so is the rest of his iso in an equal fashion. Show me a non-awkward post and you have a point).

Fair enough I guess

What does ILoA mean?

[ploben]

Persivul-decent content, town

So, our Mod is pro-Town? We should have this wrapped up pretty soon, then.

Almost like Persivul has perfect info....suspicious

Slight scum read on him.

[Ranger]

Almost like Persivul has perfect info....suspicious
Slight scum read on him.

No, you've got it all wrong.

The best read to have on the mod is a

null

read, natch.

[Florestan]

(Dunn my defense is that while 225 is awkward and reaching, so is the rest of his iso in an equal fashion. Show me a non-awkward post and you have a point).

Fair enough I guess

What does ILoA mean?

It means information instead of analysis, IE talking about objective things rather than giving reads and opinions. Basically it looks busy while having little actual content.

[BTD6_maker]

I don't see why talking about objective things is having little actual content. I was doing it quite a lot in my two completed games, Newbie 1700 and Open 638.

[Shadow_step]

Ok so I am a little iffy on Ranger and her reads since I have never played with her before I have no idea if she is good at reading RVS, but I plan on seeing how her reads turn out D2.
~~~~~~

Just caught up and when I first read the Ploben thing I completely dismissed it as a joke because of the brackets and fun things inside them and was pretty surprised when people took it seriously. What he's doing/claiming to do not sure on that one yet, is a thing called Slayer's Gambit (http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... 27s_Gambit) and is probably not a great way to go about finding scum but is a strategy that you can use.

I didn't like Alpaca's entry.
He tried to passively dismiss the case on you, it looks like he reads you as town but did not state it explicitly to avoid suspicion(I think).

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Alpaca

I would really like to lynch this guy

Not to be that guy who plays OMGUS but seen above is Shadow saying that I am trying to dismiss the case on Ploben with the least amount of suspicion on myself. Now if you think about it lets say I was scum and people were attacking town (btw I read Ploben as dumbtown) why in the world would I put myself on the line to defend him and not either try to keep the mislynch going or just lay back, relax, and watch. On top of that you add an I think to the end there to be able to back out if called on it, you can just say 'oh my bad, it was only a thought guess I was wrong', there really isn't a point in a backdoor if you really believe what you say and are willing to defend yourself.

I'm not backing out of anything, "I think" is just another way of saying "IMO".
I don't know whether you are purposely misinterpretating what I said or you didn't really understand. You never really put yourself "on the line" to defend him.
You just pasted some link about some method ploben must be using(as town). So that if and when ploben gets lynched you get some town creds.

You know he is town and there is only one way that is possible.

More votes on Alpaca please..

[ploben]

@Shadow
Alpaca could possibly be the lurking scum this game. You seemed to be convinced about Karnos with the invite unvote event. Is the Alpaca case stronger in your mind or is there something else that's pushing you to vote Alpaca?

[ploben]

Bulletproof Ben should be getting proded any second now.

[Florestan]

I don't see why talking about objective things is having little actual content. I was doing it quite a lot in my two completed games, Newbie 1700 and Open 638.

its just really easy for scum to do. In order for scum to give objective theory they can just say it without having to lie at all. For them to give opinion and reads they have to put themselves into a town mindset and see what would, as town, give them reads and talk about those. So you get reads based on reads, and so when someone has a lot of objective things in their iso you have to just ignore them because they are NAI, so its just a lot of fluff even if the slot looks active.

[Persivul]

Votecount 1.4

karnos (4) - duppin, dunnstral, ploben, BTD6
Ploben (4) - florestan, chip butty, karnos, ranger
Alpaca (1) - shadow
Chip Butty (1) - scott

Not voting (2) - Bulletproof Ben, AlpacaAlpaca

With 12 alive, it takes 7 votes to lynch.

(expired on 2016-06-19 07:30:00) remain until day end

Seeking replacement for bulletproof ben

[karnos]

Karnos-one of the people who harped on the Ploben thing which I’m super not a fan of + he was wrong for the majority of the argument.

I don't like this. I wasn't reading you as scum, but of all the things to say... this just seems wrong.

"he was wrong for the majority of the argument"

Are you saying I'm wrong, and ploben is town? How do you know that?

Or are you just guessing that I am wrong? How about after I flip town, then will you take my argument a little more seriously?

I just don't like it. As town, I would never make such a definite statement- you can't know ploben is town. I don't think you are scum, but i'm afraid of what the other players might think after you say such things if I get lynched.

I am really hoping ploben is scum, because if he gets me lynched as town then we have already lost. Actually something I just realized. I didn't think ploben and dunnstral could both be scum, it's way too obvious... except this game could have a mafia traitor. If one of them is the traitor and the other a goon, it could fit with them both being scum. BTD being the obvious other goon, playing cautious and entering the wagon at the safest point. If I get lynched, keep the above in mind when you see my flip.


Please note this excerpt of post #86 "ploben, I think everyone voting you is voting you because it was obviously a fake claim, not because they thought it was legit.

I don't like the above events. I am not sure yet if I don't like them because I can see a scum motivation behind them, or if I just don't like them because there is an "ah ha I'm smart I tricked you guys" motivation behind them."

I was giving ploben an out way back then. Town.ploben could have admitted he was trying to be a bit too clever and apologized, instead he pushed further and continued to claim that what he did (fake claiming IC) is not a scum indication. That is why I continued to vote him and pressure him, if it was really "just a joke" he had the perfect chance to get out and admit such then, instead he carried on with his claim that is was some sort of trap to catch scum.

Just one example of ploben's contradictory posts:

It's not meant to confuse scum, it's meant to give scum ammo to build a BS case to mislynch my town ass. Kind of like what's going on now.

This doesn't make sense! Mod ALWAYS confirms innocent child day 1 so town has a head start to be able to trust them. Scum would know the IC right off the bat and already have that info for the possibility of a night kill.

#101 Apparently he was hoping scum wouldn't know how the IC works and call him out for trying to claim the role. #218 He completely flip flopped, and claims scum would always know right from the start how IC works.

Okay ploben, which is it? Are scum smart players who look up the setup and understand every role, in which case your theory of catching one out with your fakeclaim is BS, or are scum dump players who might fall for your fakeclaim, in which case your claim that scum always knows how IC works is BS? You can't have it both ways.