[OLD] Open Setup Ideas and Discussion

[Faraday]

And yeah, it looks decently balanced I think. Since town can't no lynch, anyway it looks like the wifom would be fun. (looks like a fun game from the scum pov too I think)

[Faraday]

2 roleblockers seem a bit strong. Could always make it a group abillity, b ut for a newbie game that'd be weird.

[Faraday]

If you're gonna put a Jester anywhere it does less damage in the open queue, since the people signing up to the game know there's one in it. I don't see the harm in it, personally.

[Faraday]

Main criticism is I don't like % roles, like % chance of investigating someone correctly. Works okay in this set-up.

Balance looks okay, lot depends on the JOAT but that might not be a bad thing. It's your standard 10/3 split, and 3 weak town power roles. It being open means they're confirmable (although obv scum can claim them) in fact any scum being lynched should claim JOAT. Hmm. With the faith healers there then it makes it even more interesting.

Oh I know nothing about open games so take this with a pinch of salt.

[Faraday]

I quite like 4 I think. (the use of the JOAT abillities makes the role more skillful than the sane cop). Also prefer Hero's fix on the faith healer issue. That looks like an interesting set-up either way you run it, I guess.

[Faraday]

There's no reason at all afaik. As long as the set-up is approved you get to pick what open set-up you want to run now.

second/nominate (needs a name leap of faith? too lame)

w/e that is.

[Faraday]

I like that name.

[Faraday]

DarthYoshi's 13p Faith Plus One!

3x Mafia Goons

2x Town-aligned Faith Healers

1x Town-aligned Sane Cop

7x Vanilla Townies

Special Mechanic: If both Faith Healers protect the same person in one night, the protection is guaranteed to not work. Y'know, competing religions and whatnot.

Day start.

Just want to repost this because my open is super soon and I want to run this setup. I nominated it but it still needs seconds and so on. So you should so that. xD

I think hero's fix where there's one effective/one ineffective is probably better than both having 50% chances.

[Faraday]

Eh, it's more that, you could be stopping a crosskill I'd say. And for what? Not like you're protecting a cop or a tracker, just another bodyguard. Although what'd happen if multiple people protected the same guy? them all dying doesn't make sense, lol.

[Faraday]

it's basically 9:3 nightless so town should win, i.e. you set-up a chain of roleblocks, so a kill can't go off, scum can't ever make a kill as even if they're in a roleblock chain together they have to nk.

[Faraday]

I think so. Depends on what, doesn't Donner Party for example have a limited reveal?

[Faraday]

So the mafia would commit the kill as a group, or do you just mean the roleblocker could track and kill?

[Faraday]

It's a protection that last two nights.

[Faraday]

I would far prefer to be mafia in that set-up.

[Faraday]

gun owners and millers are presumably informed?

[Faraday]

gun owners and millers are presumably informed?

Yes.

It's interesting, as there's always the posibility that scum will claim miller/gun owner.

So it's up to 10vt's/Gunsmith/Cop versus Sk /Goon/Gf/Bladefather

It looks okay, I'm not sure I like the serial killer in the set-up, I think it could be more interesting with just town/mafia but I suppose it kind of works - even less room to trust innocents, I mean a gunsmith is likely to get 1 or maybe 2 results before they claim, same with cop so it's interesting, as here claiming with a few innocents could easily contain 2 of the scum if you're not careful.

[Faraday]

Suicidal player is informed they're suicidal?

Looks like a fun set-up.

[Faraday]

Pr cop? Gets PR/Not PR? (So Goon would be 'not pr') but idk.

[Faraday]

The 2of4 Newbie Setup uses a Jailkeeper and a Mafia Roleblocker. It also adds Two Vanilla Townies to your setup.

Rolecop.

And don't compare the Jailer and Doctor, the Jailer IS really powerful in a newbie.

Also watcher is a pretty damn powerful PR, in a small game it's not that hard to predict who's going to be killed.

[Faraday]

People are okay with them as long as they know they exist or they are not lied to when they ask if there are cults.

Look at Blackest Night and Brightest Day. I think those are two good examples of cult + mafia interaction.

Blackest Night being an example of a terrible one, right?

[Faraday]

I don't think I've seen a cult set-up I've liked tbqh.

[Faraday]

Not using a cult...


I just really hate the core mechanic of the cult, i.e. recruiting players and changing their win conditions. I don't think they're fun to play, they're pretty much impossible to balance (or at least they have MASSIVE swing, so that early game a couple of bad recruit choices can fuck a cult over but unless you stop them by day 3/4 you're probably fucked)

[Faraday]

Okay, I was just making sure you were telling people not to look at it as a good game :p

[Faraday]

As in can someone be a cop and doc? Or a N1 doc and N5 doc? Fairly sure the answer to that is no from what CES said.

[Faraday]

Do you mean 'Mountainous'?

And no, 10/3 isn't balanced. Not at all. 10/3 white flag is considered balanced but I don't think town have won that in practise, either.

[Faraday]

Well Odd night gets a result on Night 1, as does 1-shot. Even night has to live to Day 3 to get a meaningful result, so it's weaker.

[Faraday]

He would have to live until Day 5 to get 2 reports. Without being killed OR ran up. Optimal play for the even night cop is probably to claim Day 3 with a result, really.

[Faraday]

Hi guys, I'm setting up a ventrilo server for MS with a mafiabot, and I'm looking for like fiveish 6-8p OPEN setups that would be good and balanced for voicechat. One or two with unique roles and mechanics would be cool.

Throw your suggestions at me.

Scumhunters 8p.

[Faraday]

(Also the mafia nightkill is a ridiculously powerful weapon in mountainous)

[Faraday]

Except for the fact it can win with the mafia, which acts as an extra mafioso in lylo.

[Faraday]

Random thought...

Friends and Acquaintances and Enemies

3x Masons
3x Neighbors (Masons or Mafia can be neighbors) - Have Daytalk
3x Vanilla Mafia
4-7x VT (bring to 13 players)

Just a new way to look at what already is a decent setup (FaE/FaEaE) by adding a new element to it.

Town sided with 13 players depending on how the neighbours are utilised I guess? Depends on how pro town you figure the neighbourhood is, since I think F+E with 13 players is slightly town sided on the forum.

[Faraday]

Too many unique town roles. Need to read the scum powers, only skimmed but it looks like it narrows the pool down considerably or you force scum to claim power and thus be in a narrow pool anyway.

[Faraday]

They can just vanillaise a claimed cop.

[Faraday]

Just means it's a factional power not tied to either of them.

[Faraday]

How would named townie change the %'s? <--- dumb. Anything else would be too strong, so named townie is the only option (And at least can be cc'd)

43% doesn't seem

too bad

(I'm not sure that scum are less likely to vote each other than random in the current meta btw )

[Faraday]

Um, no. I get that. I meant is it possible to work out roughly how big a % change it would have? (Actually worded that poorly in my initial post but etc)

[Faraday]

Give it a trial run or 2 and see how it works? I don't think ~43% is that bad. At the very least it looks kind of fun.

[Faraday]

You can't really stop people typing the way they type. Having played enough alt games a lot of the players will be altguessable and there's no real way to stop that.

Also I'd probably not limit hydra discussion to qt's.

[Faraday]

No. It's nothing like that, at all. What are the penalties if they break the rule? You can't remove the posibilities of people revealing their "real account" via typing style, there'll always be subtle things that drop through. Trying to force people to change their typing style seems an unenjoyable endeavour for them, too. I mean people tend to intentionally mask it up to a point - but as I said something always slips through and some people are just really obvious, anyway.

[Faraday]

Sure, they probably are. I think it's a net negative for player enjoyment (pseudo post restrictions are bad and unenjoyable), though. (And also don't think it really adds anything.)

There was a hydra game ran with 2 slots per hydra a while back (and random hydras), if you want to take a look at something similar. (Simply called "hydra mafia", I think? mod was bv310)

[Faraday]

Wait, how do you deal elegantly with replacements? Do you not replace or is there some other method? Just add them to the hydra?

[Faraday]

For whatever reason, hydras seem more prone to flaking than single players.

I don't think so? I don't know, I don't think I've ever had a hydra flake from a game of mine. A lot depends on who's in the hydra, of course.

[Faraday]

I really like the general idea but it seems kindof swingy (potential D2 town minority).

With 6 scum and they all shoot night 1 and no crosskills it's 5:6 at the start, but more accurately it's 5:2:2:2. So yes there are less town players than scum but at least it's nightless for the next 2 nights. It would certainly be tough if that happened but not completely unwinable, I think?

[Faraday]

It'd start 8:2:2:2.
I forgot to take into account the lynch so it could be 4:2:2:2 at the start of Day 2. Which would be pretty sucky for town, admittedly.

[Faraday]

#123 is broken as an open. Everyone claims, have the lie detector detect one of the VT's and gg? You have your goon/cult/one vt left if he gets an innocent. Poisoner targets one, after lynching one. Even better if the lie detector hits scum (particularly cult)

[Faraday]

Even with a night 1 cop block for the mafia I think the werewolves are still slightly stronger/more preferential to draw.

[Faraday]

Yeah, I think it definitely narrows the gap between the two scum factions (and you want them as close to even as possible). It's better than any of the other options, at least.

[Faraday]

Less unique power roles. Don't think it breaks it here, though. It's still 7:3 which is hard on town. Day 2 lylo means they have to massclaim somewhat day 1 due to avoiding the icky "I'm the cop" stuff on Day 2. (Best to estatblish it day 1 - he'll get a result either way)

When does vanilliser resolve? After the night? So the cop would still get his results. Town are probably best claiming "PR" or "Not PR", day 1 I think? (At least initially). Scum should kill one and vanillise the other. Meh. Mafia tracker is effectively useless, really.

[Faraday]

idk i don't think the set-ups retardedly unbalanced completely with the high number of unique pr's. It doesn't seem that fun though. mafia tracker is useless when day 1 massclaim is optimal for town and i'm not sure what utility it serves?. town basically need the cop to get a scan here - so they need the bg on him night 1. i'd probably still expect the scum to win more than average just b/c I think 3 scum is a powerful voting block in such a small game.

[Faraday]

Even when there are as many known prs as mafia? 10:3? Is this because of the voting system?

Idk, what's the ratio usually for an EM game? 5:2, 7:2 are all fairly common here for the semi open newbie set-up. But yeah anything with 3 scum is usually 10 town unless there's a high concentration of pr's. A closed normal will generally have 3-4 pr's (although some are pretty weak shit like neighbouriser and scum will have a pr or 2 to offset them), it varies depending on opens.

[Faraday]

Does the diviner know the original cult leader (I assume the cult leader doesn't know the diviner initially)

edit: never mind read the second part of the diviner win con wrong initially.

[Faraday]

I kind of like that, gives the cult something to do other than just look town tells and recruit people for an easy win. Night start or Day Start? For a cult set-up I don't hate it. Diviner role seems fun to play too.

Seems like qt wouldn't work as well for that. Pm's/Aim/Skype or w/e works best for that type of communication.

[Faraday]

Well even if you consider neighbourhoods pro town they're not pro town enough to offset 10:3 imo.

[Faraday]

However if people consider JK9 balanced, this one is probably better balanced because in this setup tracker is stronger than cop. (Tracker can find Jailkeeper, cop just tells who is town/scum)

I...don't see how this makes it any way stronger. The cop gives 100% accurate results, the tracker doesn't.

[Faraday]

Kill the guy with the track everynight and it becomes 10:3 with one unkillable townie until Night 4 and a roleblocker until Night 2? Seems like scum should win that, really.

That's ignoring the override ability, even.

Am I missing something?

er I guess there's the WIFOM of wanting to keep the tracker alive in case one of them ever gets it. EH.

[Faraday]

Miller can be confirmed by both Cop and Seer investigating him (both should be guility?)

And then its what 8 against 6....

(Or just by claiming...)

[Faraday]

Werewolves and Mafia are SUPPOSED TO TRY TO KILL THE OTHER FACTION!

Not necessarily. Not to mention that if town is relying on scum to kill other scum, your game is poorly balanced pretty much by definition.

every multi scum game ever then?

[Faraday]

Er. You mean townsided then, right?

[Faraday]

Change town RB into hider?

Jesus christ no.

[Faraday]

Did you object to tracker and doctor and then suggest the much stronger watcher + doc is fine?

[Faraday]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=24640 <--- arsonist in a m. normal

[Faraday]

It seems a lot will depend on how many scum are in the clears. I mean, presumably scum will be shooting the clears (for the most part) so a lot of the kills are pseudo pre-determined which is kind of weird.

I guess you could also end up with just 3 IC's? (Can a person be chosen for both, I mean?)

[Faraday]

Hmm. Might be worth it for the cop to claim Day 1. I mean, they have the doctor to protect him and there's no reason he can't telegraph his target.

[Faraday]

I mean actually, all the pr's could claim?

Claim Cop, Claim Minelayer OR doctor, and claim Bp. (By claiming minelayer OR doctor instead of the individual one scum have a 50/50 of shooting the wrong one -- doc on cop, minelayer on doctor should probably be the plan?)

I presume doctor doesn't stop the weak cop dying on scum, but etc.

[Faraday]

(I mean the watcher could watch the cop to find the doc for night 2, and shoot the mine layer but still)

[Faraday]

Why?

[Faraday]

Town

power roles

night actions are part of the game unless you're playing a mountainous. Newbie games need to reflect and include that.

As in, I think this is a bad argument. Knowing what roles work together and what makes sense in a setup is part of the game in all closed setups (the majority of games) yet it's not something we try to teach in the newbie setup.

I do think it suffers from a problem in that it's going to get repetitive for IC's and such, which is probably an actual issue. (no one really wants to play the exact same open setup game after game, do they?)

[Faraday]

Huh. That's...interesting? I was going to say Jailer is much weaker than the others, but I guess it could work if used as a doctor. (At the very least that's how it's likely to be effective, whereas cop should always be using their role)

[Faraday]

Can't think how it could be broken. But uh, unlike the resistance it suffers from the game being over if the witness is ever forced to claim?


er: that also @ cdb's