Open 459: There is a New Scum in Town. Game Over Town Wins!

[Kmd4390]

/confirm

[Kmd4390]

vote fizz

The ol' reliable nervous first post tell. Complete with a smiley to ease the tension, over explanation next post edit, and fear that he's been caught on something dumb (confirmation method).

We can do whatever we want today, but fizz is defintely scum so his death needs to happen at some point. Preferably Day 1 lynch, but whatever you guys want is cool with me.

The director may also be scum because his post sounds like defending a VI, but aether's actions weren't VI. It tends to look better to defend the easy target than jump on them and I think that's what he was going for.

[Kmd4390]

vote fizz

The ol' reliable nervous first post tell. Complete with a smiley to ease the tension, over explanation next post edit, and fear that he's been caught on something dumb (confirmation method)

As expected. Someone was gonna overanalyze my first post. Posting smilies is my style. It's a way to express one self.

You forgot the nervousness, overexplanation, and fear. Also, "I post smilies" doesn't explain the need for one there specifically.

-----------

Director, "try-harding" (although phrased differently) has been used as a reason against me in almost every games recently. If you'd like, I can quote/link to completed town and scum games where I've gotten that.

-------------

Fizz, had no idea you were new until you said so. Also, why aren't you voting me if you think I'm scum? Afraid someone might call OMGUS?

Lmao at the lack of answer to "are you scum?". Fizz is sooooo scum.

------------

Uctri, thoughts on fizz?

Aether, do you have actual thoughts on fizz so far?

[Kmd4390]

So fizz admits he was afraid of looking scummy by answering the "are you scum" question. Isn't that the entire purpose of asking loaded questions? Seeing if you can make someone nervous like that?

And yeah I don't bother checking join dates every time someone posts. Right now, the fact that you are new means absolutely nothing to me right now.

Guys, is the last paragraph of 44 an accidental scum claim?

[Kmd4390]

Mollie, the problem is newbtown is very easy to spot and fizz's posts didn't give me the vibe of "hey is this guy new or something?". Even if you treat him as a newb, I don't see newbtown. And I don't see his posts as simply "motivation to survive" as you put it.

Majiffy, my fizz vote is equally "opportunistic" as your aether vote. We both saw something scummy and pounced. If you are going to push opportunism, you are going to have to show how it is different than your own vote.

[Kmd4390]

How does timing matter? We both voted in our first post after day start. Only difference is that he said he was going to ahead of time.

Also:

Now think about this for a second. Why would you call me scummy for not directly answering the question. If i say no, i'm not, you get to square one. From what i'm thinking,

scum would definitely just say no. Why risk exposing yourself as scum (if you're scum),

by writing more stuff, when you can just say no and leave it at that. That was my thought process.

Town doesn't have to worry about what to do if they are scum.

[Kmd4390]

I see where majiffy is going with it, but I don't think I'm going to end up agreeing with it when it's all said and done.

[Kmd4390]

Majiffy, the closest example I have of fizz's play I have is a scum game of cooldog's modded by ckd. I can't recall a game where town played like that. Either way, I haven't seen it from fizz as either town or scum so meta doesn't really apply. Even if it did, saying I've seen it as town is completely false. Also, I must be scum claiming because I think aether is town.

Aether, don't trust the wiki for tells.

[Kmd4390]

Majiffy, you've obviously never played with people like SensFan.

[Kmd4390]

I still think he is town so take that however you want.

[Kmd4390]

Lol

[Kmd4390]

Yeah that's not OMGUS and OMGUS isn't always scummy anyway.

But there are plenty of other reasons to vote fizz so feel free to use some of those.

[Kmd4390]

Aether, it's not about benefiting town. Psycologically speaking, if you are town and someone calls you scum, you already know they are wrong. This triggers something in your brain that maybe they are "wrong" because they are scum out to get you lynched because in your mind there is absolutely nothing that is scummy about you and they must be scum for thinking otherwise. Now you think they are scum and vote them solely because they voted you first. I personally have a very hard time reading people who think I am scum when I am town because I am aware of this bias and I am also aware that scum will attack me from time to time and I am terrible at telling the difference. Point is, this bias is OMGUS when it happens and it exists from a town point of view. One of many examples.

*sigh*. Reading the rest of that post, I'm wondering why I even bothered responding to that. I've always been against policy lynches but I'm tempted to make an exception...

[Kmd4390]

Like seriously using words like "stupid" and "retarded" to describe people with more experience than you and have the ability to help you learn the game... it's just pretty uncalled for.

[Kmd4390]

I don't blame majiffy at all. Almost did the same thing myself.

[Kmd4390]

And he isn't site banned? Is mith aware of those games?

[Kmd4390]

Fuck it.

unvote, vote aether

I'd rather mislynch and be in a tougher spot than have the game completely ruined. Day 1 is typically a mislynch anyway. I'm pretty sure he's town but someone with a history of modkills for cheating shouldn't be able to keep playing.

[Kmd4390]

unvote, vote fizz

[Kmd4390]

Director, so I am scum for my early game playstyle?

[Kmd4390]

Why is he posting from a scum mindset if he is town? Meaning the whole not wanting to expose himself as scum if he's scum thing. Show me how he is town if you honestly believe he is.

*sigh*

I'm worried that this is the classic case where scum is so scummy Day 1 that the wagon builds too fast and people don't want to be wagoners so they call the wagon dumb and the truly scummy player town just based on that. Am I close?

[Kmd4390]

If it's confirmation bias, how am I scum?

[Kmd4390]

Uct, so you are lynching for information, not for scum?

[Kmd4390]

Uct, so you are lynching for information, not for scum?

You're the best lynch.

Yet this doesn't answer my question.

Do you even believe I am scum or are you just lynching for info?

[Kmd4390]

So..

I'm scum for having a strong scum read on someone you somehow know to be town?

[Kmd4390]

Uct, scum dying is a good thing.

[Kmd4390]

Yes he is still scum. See where my vote is?

I can't say for sure how he would play as town. This is my first game with him.

[Kmd4390]

Majiffy, not every newbie plays the same.

So what was the italics thing?

[Kmd4390]

Skimmed this page for now (I'll read it in full when I'm not at work and have more time).

Director, I have no idea what your boy scout comment is supposed to mean.

Majiffy, the question is how newbtown plays. I don't have an answer for that because everyone plays the game differently.

[Kmd4390]

Ok I read that page in full and it looks like I already picked out the important parts.

Majiffy, call me dense but I legitimately don't see how anything in fizz's play is newbish. Until he said I was just going after the new guy, it didn't even occur to me from reading his posts that he may be new. I gave my reasons why he is scum and the fact that he is new doesn't change those reasons in my opinion. The main thing I saw originally was a nervousness that implied a thought of "I hope they don't figure me out", not "I hope I play well". Then he showed the same thing in his answer (if you can even call it an answer) to the "are you scum" question. It looked like someone not wanting to lie and avoiding the question by choosing to focus on why the question was asked rather than focusing on the answer itself. And then there's the whole thing about not wanting to expose himself as scum if he's scum. There is no reason for a townie to think like that. The closes a townie should get to that line of thinking is "I don't want someone to think I am scum" or "I don't want to be lynched". His posting just looks like it is coming from a scum mindset, new or not.

Mollie, I don't remember much of breakfast, but I do remember something standing out about fe. And while I liked Nobody at first (probably biased because he jumped on the wagon I started), I see your point on him. What do you think of director?

[Kmd4390]

Majiffy, the comment about not wanting to expose himself was his reason for not answering "no". I even just went back and read it for like the tenth time and I still don't see it the way you do.

Mollie, the OMGUS thing was actually about the Aether vs Fizz thing. My fizz vote was so early that it wouldn't make any sense at all for anyone to call that OMGUS.

[Kmd4390]

Just want to pop in and say that even though I'm only behind by a page or two, I don't have the motivation to read it yet because work is crazy right before black Friday. I'm sure I'll get to it tomorrow on my day off.

[Kmd4390]

Dude this isn't terribly hard to understand. Being nervous is not a scumtell. End of point.

It can be.

^This. No, it's not a universal tell. But depending on the situation, as NS says, it can be.

i don't buy his "didn't know he was new" excuse

Explain how it would benefit scum to attack a newb and then lie about not knowing they are a newb. It's something that will be called out immediately and doesn't benefit them at all.

You should probably go back and read my post again because you apparently didn't the first time. It had nothing to do with his reason for not just answering no.

Yes it did. He was asked about why he didn't say no and part of his answer was that scum wouldn't want to do that to expose themselves.

Scum replacing when they're in trouble

Unvote
Vote: Fe

Is this for real?

[Kmd4390]

Which post?

[Kmd4390]

Except it wasn't hypothetical...

[Kmd4390]

Rach, sorry to hear that.

[Kmd4390]

Mollie and bork are probably town for things I picked up in that discussion, but we won't discuss those things.

Mollie, majiffy stated intent to vote aether before the game even started officially.

[Kmd4390]

I didn't take it as policy, but ok.

I asked someone about director. Can't remember if it was you or not. I think he's scum.

[Kmd4390]

That last post about sums up my thoughts on Fe. While I've considered the possibility he is scum, the post he is being wagoned for is what made me second guess those suspicions.

[Kmd4390]

Fe, any reason why you can't post thoughts on what you've read so far?

[Kmd4390]

I disagree with you about the game being all about lying as scum. When I'm scum, my only lies are usually my reads and my claims. And sometimes the reads are genuine in games with a second scum team or SK.

[Kmd4390]

Majiffy, the bolded in that Fe quote is something that I assume was directed at me. I had asked him to post what he had so far. It really looks more like a summary of the game than opinions though.

[Kmd4390]

I think it's genuine. And I know but I've never liked that term because of the way it's tossed around.

Fe, please tell me what the following from the above post are supposed to mean:
1) this my be a playstyle
2) but I oculd be something
Also, if you could fix the enter key on your keyboard, that would be great.

[Kmd4390]

Mollie, pretty sure I never used the "r" word. I rarely do. By the way, is SA the site you are talking about by any chance?

[Kmd4390]

I don't think fe is scum. He's a policy lynch or deadline lynch at best. Fizz is still a much better lynch.

[Kmd4390]

Uct, yup.

[Kmd4390]

so did deadline already pass or was it extended at some point?

[Kmd4390]

^that's kind of BS and very cheap play if someone is really doing that.

Also, once the game is completed, it is still a completed game.

[Kmd4390]

Why is that town points?

Think about it. You are scum and have someone's ISO up. You see a question directed at you. Is your first instinct not "oh shit I never answered that."?

The fact that he answered is pretty null really.

[Kmd4390]

Not if you were doing some kind of re-read and noticed it before him.

[Kmd4390]

K.

[Kmd4390]

Fe needs to claim. Fizz is the better lynch but I will hammer fe before I will let a no lynch happen.

[Kmd4390]

I won't hammer before fe posts his reads, assuming he does so tomorrow like he said.

[Kmd4390]

assuming he does

You know what they say about assuming...

That's why I'm using the word loosely.

[Kmd4390]

Messy dumps?

[Kmd4390]

^:goodposting:

[Kmd4390]

Nacho, I think you've already noticed this but I'm gonna throw it out there. Fizz was pretty scummy before he stopped posting.

Majiffy, fe didn't say not to take anything he says seriously. He said that not everything in his notes was all completely serious and the one thing in there was a joke.

If we can make a fizz lynch happen, i'd love that. But as I've said, I'll vote fe to avoid a no lynch.

[Kmd4390]

That's why I haven't voted fe yet. And yes fizz is my strongest scum read.

Bork, not being able to claim isn't a town tell. And he actually has only been gone for like six days, some of which was his V/LA.

[Kmd4390]

Bork, he's not a PR. He's scum.

[Kmd4390]

Mollie, that was about fizz. I think fizz is scum. I think fe is town. A day 1 no lynch is so harmful to town that i'd rather lynch a town read that I could be wrong on than no lynch. Basically, a no lynch is a 0% chance that scum dies and they get a free kill. And in a game where the PRs are JK and doc, night information isn't nearly valuable enough to say it's worth trading a dead town player (unless a kill is stopped in which case day 2 is just a replay of day 1 with slightly more info that only one player has). If we lynch one of my town reads, he still has a chance to be scum so it beats the 0% on a no lynch. So yeah i'd lynch just about anybody over a no lynch, especially when it's someone who will probably be lynched later anyway and we already know he isn't a PR. That being said, I still would much rather lynch fizz who I think will flip scum.

Majiffy, nuh-uh.

[Kmd4390]

I have to admit the majiffy-read-flip is a good point.

Whatever. We could do worse than a fe lynch.

[Kmd4390]

God it's like pulling teeth to lynch scum around here.

You're telling me...

[Kmd4390]

Nacho looks town to me.

[Kmd4390]

Maenara, I actually don't like the fe lynch. As I've said, i'd take any lynch over no lynch. However, fizz is the real scum so that's who we should be lynching. Look over my ISO and it should be obvious I think fe is town.

[Kmd4390]

Maenara, yes really. There are players i'd lynch fe over. He isn't my strongest town read and will probably be lynched at some point anyway. So "whatever" and "could do worse" sums it up nicely. While it's not my favorite choice, I won't stand in the way of it.

Nacho, maenara replaced into an ongoing game that you and majiffy are dead in. Although now that I think about it, you and majiffy may not have been in that game at the same time.

[Kmd4390]

To do list:
-look at fizz vs fe again
-ISO fe
-finish to do list

Nobody special might be scum but for some reason the "I don't bus" thing looks genuine.

The director definitely could be scum. I didn't like him yesterday and his start to today is rubbing me the wrong way.

Either fizz is town or we were awesome on Day 1. I'm not ruling out awesome, but if
there is some telling stuff in fizz vs fe, I'll go with FizzTown.

I want to look at uct a little bit.

[Kmd4390]

Prod dodge. I still have my to do list to do. Adding a second job is bad for mafia so sorry about that.

[Kmd4390]

Ok I just quickly read the last four pages and here's my thoughts:
-the majiffy votes make absolutely no sense. Uct looks like scum jumping on. Lastsurvivor initially does as well but later he seems to believe the arguement.
-as for the votes on me, if it's because fe cdalled me town, why vote me over nobody special who had the weird vote hop thing going on yesterday? I think he's town because of the "I generally don't bus" comment, but logic seems to point at him over me even from and outside view. If people were voting me because I voted fizz over fe, i'd understand but nobody has mentioned that. (Also fizz could still have been scum).

I still have my to do list to do, but for now:

vote uct

^this is someone who needs to be looked at.

[Kmd4390]

1) I never called majiffy scum
2) 1 vote is hardly a wagon.

And if I was going for the wagon effect, i'd probably go for someone who has been discussed as scum. NS, director, etc.

[Kmd4390]

Director, fair. I had a town read on scum. If I'm going to be lynched for that, there isn't much I can say.

Maenara, I haven't voted towards a lynch because I don't have the information to do so yet. I need a day with free time to look over Day 1.

Director, lynching majiffy after my town flip is like the worst this town could do.

[Kmd4390]

K

[Kmd4390]

Maenara, I searched every post from today that contained a vote on me and responded to the reasons. I also said that if I'm being lynched for having a town read on scum, I understand that. Not sure what more reaction I can give you.

Majiffy, you pushed the fe lynch over fizz like crazy. You are town unless you bussed like crazy. So to me you are town until crazy theory time. Now isn't that time.

Nacho, so would I. I didn't realize when I decided to Mod a game (that gets top preference) and replace into a 35 page game that I was going to start a second job. Unfortunately, this game drew the short stick for strong attention. If I'm still alive to get to that to do list, I will. However, I'll be lynched shortly after and my opinions probably won't be connsidered so it's not a high priority for me. Sounds shitty, but hey there's the truth. Take it how you want.

[Kmd4390]

I'm caught up. I just haven't done my look back over Day 1.

I can see LastScum. I've had him near the middle of my list and a few things he's said have made me twitch a little.

[Kmd4390]

Maenara is actually probably town. Meta+aetherslot=maenaratown.

[Kmd4390]

Meh. Maenara doesn't look particularly scummy anyway.

[Kmd4390]

Majiffy, that case...actually...isn't too bad.

Maenara, that was the whole point of the "k". Director's post was pretty useless so I responded with uselessness back. If you aren't going to make a specific point, you aren't going to get a real response.

[Kmd4390]

I don't see a random vote. I only see mine.

[Kmd4390]

Oh and there's a good chance that between today and tomorrow (probably tomorrow), I'll have a chance to look over Day 1 stuff finally. That's assuming my days off stay days off.

[Kmd4390]

Fizz wagon at full strength:
Fizz (6) Kmd4390, the director, Nobody Special, penguin_alien, Aether, uctriton00
^Problem is we don't have a town flip from him, so now isn't the time to look for scum on the wagon. Hell, looking back at the first couple pages, I still want to say he's scum. So why look here? To compare to the Fe wagon. If Fizz is town, scum probably showed preference here. If he is scum, they probably either didn't show preference or wanted another wagon to pick up steam. So here are the names of the people on the initial Fizz wagon. Keep in mind that this was so early in the day that the people voting here may or may not have had the expectation that this would go to a lynch.

Kmd4390, (1) Borkjerfkin
Aether (4) Majiffy, Breakfast, Fe, Nobody Special
Majiffy (1) pirate mollie
Breakfast (1) Declan_giggs
Fizz (5) Kmd4390, the director, penguin_alien, Aether, uctriton00
^First to jump off is Nobody Special. Majiffy, Breakfast, and Fe have all voted Aether giving us our second wagon. Again, Aether's slot hasn't flipped yet. But what I notice aside from Nobody Special's flip is Fe's vote on Aether:

Really? Is it that just me to whom that sounds so much like a scum-slip...Even if not, he could be a very volatile townie especially in the endgame. I mean short attention span... (also note Aether/director scum team)
UNVOTE: Breakfast
VOTE: Aether LET THE LIGHT SHINE THROUGH YOU!!!

Clearly scum voting a townie here in my opinion. Aether is pretty obvtown. Also note:Aether/director scum team callout. Could be an attempt to connect a townie to a buddy in case of a later flip, but I kind of doubt whether Fe was that clever.

Kmd4390 (3) Nobody Special, uctriton00, Majiffy
Number Six (2) Breakfast, Fe
Breakfast (2) Borkjerfkin, the director
Fizz (4) penguin_alien, Number Six, Kmd4390. Lastsuvivor
^Director has now shifted off of the fizz wagon to vote Breakfast with bork. A new wagon has also sprung up on myself. Note Nobody Special on yet another wagon. Also just realized that even though the number has only dropped one, Uct switched to me while Last voted Fizz. Looking at Uct, I don't like this series of quotes:

Other than that, Fizz looks completely backed into a corner. Vote: Fizz I don't like unprompted overexplanations at all.

Fizz got quiet REAL quick after the bandwagon built. I think you defend the **** out of yourself, but if it's his first game, I see that as newb town who got scared to die and stopped posting so much. Majiffy pointed out KMD's case on Fizz. I'll buy that. KMD's flip buys Majiffy's flip, and probably Fizz's flip too. I don't see Majiffy going out of his way to defend someone he doesn't know his alliance of.

Do you even believe I am scum

Yes I do.

^So first, Fizz is scum while five other people are voting him. Then, out of nowhere Fizz is newbtown for lurking and we should lynch me to "buy" Majiffy and Fizz's flips. Then I'm not being voted for info, I'm suddenly scum. The whole thing looks like he's just trying to place his vote somewhere popular without stepping on toes. That's scum play. Next vote count.

Fe (5) the director, uctriton00, Majiffy, penguin_alien, Nobody Special
Number Six (2) Breakfast, Fe
Fizz (6) Number Six, Kmd4390, Lastsuvivor, Malakittens, Borkjerfkin, pirate mollie (L-2)
^This is going to be a huge one so I'll take my time on it. Fizz wagon first. The first three Fizz votes were there already. Unfortunately, Number Six/Aether/Maenara didn't really post anything that gives me strong info here. The second vote is my own, so no need for me to look at that. The third is LastSurvivor:

Best place for my vote now. Rationale is pretty much what other people have been saying. End of post #44 doesn't seem like it's been posted from a town perspective, and he really hasn't addressed that point.

^Initial vote.

I guess my issue is -- what caused Fizzy to go from just being "nervous" to being an ok wagon in your [bork] opinion?

^Scumhunting on a wagon that he's still on.

While Fe is pretty scummy, post #317 was not scummy at all. I don't understand the reactions to it. Uct, Fizz, The Director, please explain (also the chances of at least one of you being scum is quite high due to that chain of reactions, and I don't think it's uct).

^And here. Initial reaction to Fe wagon. I don't see anything up to this point that shows that Last thinks Fe is "pretty scummy". Even here, it's a disclaimer to a defense. This looks bad after not seeming convinced Fizz is scum. But here's the problem. I can see where this could be coming from if Last is town. Fe was barely discussed before this point and nobody seemed sure he was town. Also, the replacing out as a scumtell thing wasn't convincing at all. I'll keep reading...

Fizz when you get back can you not ignore me I demand attention thanks.
Fe uh...nice wall. Can you maybe do some synthesis and tell us some of your reads?

^Possibly pushing Fizz a bit while prompting Fe to avoid the rope.

I know this is unrelated to Last, but I found it quoted in his ISO:

I'll answer your question with a question. Why would someone looking for a replacement still be posting?

^Not Fe's buddy.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that Fe is just too scared to post and is trying to keep his head down long enough for Fizz or someone else to become the flavor of the moment.

I'm feeling the same way about Fizz really.

^Definitely could be Fe's buddy.

Vote Fe and I'll look at Fizz tomorrow. We have scummier scum to lynch.

Huh. Alright.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Fe

THIS IS L-1

^And here's the chance to bus because Fe is going down anyway.

I'm pretty sold on Uct/Last as scum right now, but I'll keep looking just in case something else stands out.

Bork and Mollie also voted Fizz. Let's see why:

Pings me as scummier than Fe and I'm more convinced this wagon is town driven than I am about the Fe wagon.

^Fair.

kmd I will probably bloc vote with you cos you are my strongest town read

I can get down with a fe lynch cos I do think he was role fishing

VOTE: fizz

^Scum trying to keep Fe alive or town who doesn't like either lynch? Meh, she seems pretty ok with both to be the second. I'll keep judgement on this on hold until I'm further into the analysis.

I hate to leave this partially done but something just came up. I'll get back to it probably tomorrow. I think it's Uct/Last, but I want to finish this.

[Kmd4390]

If you need reason to stop the Maenara wagon (aside from the wagon being bad to begin with), refer to Fe calling Aether on a scum slip in the first quote of my last post.

[Kmd4390]

Uct and Last are scummy.

[Kmd4390]

Oh and you and Maenara are town.

[Kmd4390]

So where was I?

Fe (5) the director, uctriton00, Majiffy, penguin_alien, Nobody Special
Number Six (2) Breakfast, Fe
Fizz (6) Number Six, Kmd4390, Lastsuvivor, Malakittens, Borkjerfkin, pirate mollie (L-2)

I already looked at the Fizz wagon and found null on Number Six, scum on Last, town lean on Bork, and mollie saved for later judgement.

So for the Fe wagon.

I got a crazy idea. Let's lynch this guy.

VOTE: Fe

^No scum would suddenly decide to bring attention to their under the radar buddy here. This is why director is obvtown.

This, however:

You're right.



It's crazy.

Is how a scumbuddy might react.

As soon as his name is mentioned he shows up. Very very suspect.

^Kind of unrelated, but this is more proof that the Beetlejuice tell is a good one because Fe did flip scum. I love that tell.

Scum replacing when they're in trouble

Unvote
Vote: Fe

Bad vote. Maybe intentionally.

This Fe guy seems fishier post after post.

^But no vote. This could very well still be scum.

VOTE: Fe
Post was annoying to read, IIoA, and incredibly stupid.

Yep. This is not at all how a scum reacts to a buddies' catch up in a game where said buddy just received two votes and a good point hasn't been made yet.

Penguin's thoughts are spread over a few posts and quoting them is probably more of a pain than it's worth just to show that it's town thinking from someone I've had a town read on all game anyway.

Hi. Not only am I shuttling back and forth between two towns, I've caught cold and generally feel like shit.

Vote: Fe

He's walking a too-fine tightrope. Lynch it.

^No longer a crazy idea? Why? Because it has support? *Sigh* And there can only be two scum between Uct/Last/NS/Fizzslot. This kind of sucks.

Fe (8) the director, uctriton00, Majiffy, penguin_alien, pirate mollie, Lastsuvivor, Nobody Special, Nachomama8 (LYNCH)
Fizz (3) Maenara, Kmd4390, Malakittens,
Nachomama8 (1) Borkjerfkin

No big changes up to lynch except pirate, Last, and Nacho voting Fe. Nobody Special unvoted and revoted. And Bork voted Nacho. So let's look there.

Since NS's ISO is on my other tab already, I'll start there. Looks like he switched to Nacho and back for literally no reason. Looks like he saw that Bork had a suspicion on Nacho and wanted to capitalize on a chance to spring up a new wagon. Director gets all OMGSOMEONEHAMMER so he switches back. Weak bus?

Bork seems fine with Fe's death but thinks Nacho is scum. This is fine.

Now let's see if Mollie, Last or Nacho seems to be bussing.

Mollie goes back and forth between Fizz and Fe and seems to want us to believe they are interchangeable. Yet looking at the posts, I see a Fizz preference, especially here:

fine.

VOTE: fe

I don't know. Mollie hasn't looked too bad overall and it's not as bad as Uct, Last, NS, or Fizz. Consider Mollie a weak town read based on this.

Last:
I actually already covered it. His vote is just his chance to bus.

Nacho:
Hammer is fine.

So yeah. It's Uct and Last. NS is just being weird, not necessarily scum. Next in line if I'm wrong, but if I recall, he usually plays weird. Fizzslot is next because I still think he was scummy but I don't see anything that suggests we were looking at two scum wagons. Then mollie or bork but I see four people as scummier than them so I won't even start to pursue anything on them right now.

I still want to look at Fe's ISO at some point, but I doubt I'll get much from that.

[Kmd4390]

Director, it's Uct and Last because of their voting records and reactions to the wagons on Fizz and Fe. And the last post wasn't at you. It was just the end of the first long one.

[Kmd4390]

If you're too lazy to read, I can't help you. The facts are in my posts from today (RL day).

[Kmd4390]

First question answers the second.

The point on Fe is you avoided voting him until he was going down anyway.

And I won't be clicking links because that's obnoxious to do on my phone.

[Kmd4390]

If my posts aren't "working from there", I honestly have no clue what is.

[Kmd4390]

Gonna catch up tomorrow. I think I saw a couple LastSurvivor votes. I like that.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, looking back, it looks like I responded to mollie thinking it was director on the cold hard fact thing. My bad.

Penguin, I see what you are saying about mollie in my analysis. There was a point against mollie, but I just don't think that's as strong as what some other players have done. If I focus on other players and mollie is scum, it just means I wasn't able to properly separate bad town from scum. I do have it stored in the back of my mind though, so mollie isn't getting a pass or anything. I'm just more focused on my Uct/Last theory and can't accept NS or fizzslot as likely town.

--------------------------

Last, the fact that you were scumhunting by looking at the wagon you were on makes it look like you didn't believe in your vote. If I see people pile on a wagon that I'm in support of, I'll take note if something stands out, but unless it's scummier than the reason I'm voting where I am, I'll let it slide until the person I'm voting looks town or the other person voting them looks scummier than the person I'm voting. It's possible that it's just a playstyle difference, but it's hard to see you voting someone you think is scum, then questioning someone for voting the same person without a thought of "are they bussing or am I voting town?". And yes, I think your Fe vote was a last ditch bus. That's one of the main ways I look for scum after a scum flip. The way people reacted to the wagon and the interactions (which reminds me I may still ISO Fe if I get bored one day).

I don't vote replacements based on their original slot owners, so it would have been useless to vote his replacee.

Uhhhhh. You DO realize that the guy that replaced Fizz got the same Role PM as Fizz, right? 0_o

On your quotes at Fe, the first two look like throwaway comments just to say you called him scum when he flips, which you are doing now. The third mostly looks fake, but I'll give you that the "maybe twenty second" thing looks a bit less like scum on scum.

--------------------------

LS you probably should answer this cause

Majiffy knows a thing or two about bussing

.

Please explain bolded.

--------------------

I finally just saw what this flowchart thing is all about... Kinda dumb.

It'll come back around eventually, when the mood strikes.

How is the mood striking you

now

?

-----------------------

I stand by that statement unless anyone wants to explain how pushing for someone's lynch based solely off of an accusation of bussing is valid.

See this:

It's called associative tells. And we have a scum flip.

Congratulations! Scumhunting 101!

Unvote, Vote LastSurvivior

. This is better.

[Kmd4390]

Ok, noted. Good to know.

[Kmd4390]

But if you want to lynch him I'm totally on board. In fact if you can gather 5 of your closest friends in this game so we can do it I'd hammer without a question.

Meh. Now isn't the time to lynch Majiffy. I still think there's a good chance he's town.

---------------------------------

In general, I'm pretty sure that Bork, Director, Kmd, Peng, Mollie, Maj are town. They are in order of decreasing towniness.

NS, Uct, Buldermar, and Nacho I could see being scum. Increasing order of scumminess.

I actually like most of that list... And the Nacho case in 848...

In response to 849,
-If it's playstyle difference, whatever, but I feel like you need to account for all of the little bit of information you have.
-I feel that I already looked at players->Fe somewhat thoroughly. Fe->players is really all that is left.
-The fact that something can't be defended against doesn't mean it's not a tell. Is it fair to the person you are voting in that case? Probably not. Will it help town if you catch scum and vote them in that case? Absolutely. For example, Fizz was scummy as hell. If Buldorwhatever didn't look scummy, and Fizz hadn't been the counterwagon to a scum lynch, I'd absolutely be voting Buld on my Fizz case from Day 1 (assuming I didn't find anything better).
-

And if anyone's going to shout "LS, your voting Nacho based on his interactions with Fe. Why is it fair for him but not for you?" please read my next statement. What I did makes sense from a town perspective: My Fe read never wavered.

Nacho's read on Fe didn't waver -- it went from being solid town to solid scum.

I don't have fancy statistics or anything to prove this, but I feel like I've seen more scum keep their buddies as scum reads without voting them until they are going to be lynched anyway than I've seen them completely change a read like that. And I feel like I've seen more town go from a town read on scum to a scum read as cases are presented. Scum like to keep their reads consistent because it looks town for whatever reason. A good townie will change their reads quite a bit as more information becomes available.

------------------------

getting a strong as fuck townread from UCT, but i never trust any reads i make on him
uct, am i right?

Can you explain this?

By the way, 883 basically sums up my thoughts on Last's Day 1.

-------------------------

No, that's bullshit. You've repeatedly asserted that you think I will flip scum. But you've also asserted that Maenara is your highest scum read. How can you think both of these things and not think that we're the scum team together? That's a huge disconnect. It doesn't make sense for you to be searching for connectional tells from me when I'm not your highest scum read either.

And yet it's not bullshit to look for scum on the wagon that you are supporting before it even flips... Noted, I guess.....

However, the associative tell that "LS made a case on Nacho and could possibly be bussing him" is flimsy because it all boils down to WIFOM.

WIFOM isn't always flimsy either though... Hell, the entire game is based around WIFOM. Anything that can be considered a tell is WIFOM. WIFOM is basically the core of mafia.

So...

Yeah.

------------------------

I don't think I like the last survivor lynch very much.

Why?

[Kmd4390]

Unofficially, here's what I found for a current vote count.

Kmd4390 (2) uctriton00, Buldemar
Lastsurvivor (5) Kmd4390, Nachomamma8, borkjerfkin, Majiffy, Maenara
Maenara (1) penguin_alien
Nobody Special (1) pirate mollie
Majiffy (2) the director, Lastsurvivor

Not Voting: Nobody Special

[Kmd4390]

He actually hopped on the initial fizz case though.

[Kmd4390]

He actually hopped on the initial fizz case though.

He hopped onto the initial fizz case, but backed off it later and started defending him.

I follow you up until him being town...

[Kmd4390]

Last, every post is new information. More tells to see, cases made, votes placed, etc.

Nacho, ok. At the very least, I can follow your thought process. I can't say I'm swayed, but I see where you are coming from with that.

Director, I would but I'm already voting him.

[Kmd4390]

Mollie, they do if they want to look just town enough to let a wagon form elsewhere.

[Kmd4390]

I'm stuck between an Uct vote and NS vote I think. I feel like off fe wagon and on last wagon is a list we should look at. Let's see if anyone fits it.

Off fe: maenara me bork fizz
On last: me nacho bork maenara ns director

Hmm. This is where i'd usually say one of maenara/bork is scum. But I'm pretry positive maenara is town. Bork has been a town read for me. Uct and NS have been scummier than bork. Hell, fizz was scummier but day 1 counter wagon and all that.

I want to look back and see if bork makes sense as a Fe buddy. But working at wal mart just before Christmas and a second job on top of that has murdered me so it might be a bit before I do it.

--------

Mollie, you keep talking about your "pet theory". I already know it's wrong. However NS might be scum. If you believe the theory, it doesn't matter whether you vote NS or me. I'm half tempted to offer this up:
-lynch NS today
---if he flips scum, I'll eat rope without a fight
---if he flips town, theory is dead and I don't have to hear about it anymore

From your point of view, this is a gold mine for you. If your theory is right, town wins right away and I am a dumbass for offering up my scum buddy and volunteering to die immediately. If your theory is wrong, but NS is scum, good for town. Just one more to find. If your theory is wrong and NS is town, it kind of sucks but at least we prove the theory was wrong and NS's scumminess isn't distracting us but that is definitely worst case scenario.

vote nobody special

for now. Might switch to uct or bork at some point but can't see myself being excited for any lynch other than those in the near future.

[Kmd4390]

In fact, I'll officially offer:

if we lynch NS today and he flips scum, I'm willing to die the next day

I don't want to get to LYLO and mollie still be there and go "oh that pet theory. Here's my vote. Shit, town lost"

[Kmd4390]

unvote, vote kmd

I guess it accomplishes the same thing unless NS is scum.

[Kmd4390]

Claiming VT

[Kmd4390]

It's not "shits and giggles". We are officially dismissing that pet theory thing.

[Kmd4390]

No.

[Kmd4390]

Uct, that the pet theory mollie keeps bringing up is wrong. She seems to be a good scumhunter and can probably help this town once we have a town flip from me or NS. If we lynch NS today like I originally proposed, there's still a chance he flips scum in which case I die anyway under my proposal.

Think about it:
-Lynch NS
---He flips scum. There's still the distraction of the theory.
---He flips town. Problem solved as far as the theory, but we lost a lynch.
-Lynch me
---I'll flip town and this BS is behind us and the game can go on. NS can still be lynched, but for his play, not the theory.

------------------------

Nacho, Maenara is obvtown.

-------------------------

I'm not liking Fe right now, for the same reasons as Number Six isn't liking him.

VOTE: Fizz

Pings me as scummier than Fe and I'm more convinced this wagon is town driven than I am about the Fe wagon.

Seriously what am I supposed to be looking at? How one person that isn't Fe played scum in one instance?

What don't you agree with? I don't think that town-Nacho would make the argument that he's making about Fe being town. I don't have a terribly good read on Fe, but to cherry pick a tiny group of newbies, make vague generalizations about how they play as town and scum, link to ISOs with no further granularity or explanation, and somehow handwave that into Fe = town all while misrepping me seems like a lack of a genuine attempt at scumhunting.

I'm fine with Fe dying, and we've got a quorum for it, but this is where I stand and I at least want to know everyone else's opinions on his contributions thus far.

Doesn't like Fe-> Fizz is scummier than Fe -> Defending Fe -> Doesn't have a good read on Fe -> Fine with Fe dying

How could I have been so blind?

Can Bork be lynched tomorrow???

[Kmd4390]

Nacho, this is why I think maenara is obvtown:

If you need reason to stop the Maenara wagon (aside from the wagon being bad to begin with), refer to Fe calling Aether on a scum slip in the first quote of my last post.

That and aether looked obvtown to begin with.

[Kmd4390]

Meh. I still think we will find scum in uct/ns/bork. I haven't really addressed penguin because that's been a solid town read for me and everyone had seemed to agree up until now.

Mollie, I actually would never survive as a science major. I took the bare minimum for science classes in both high school and college.

Let me spill the beans on my majiffy read. I do think there is a chance he's scum. I've been putting this off because (was it director?) said that majiffy loves to bus as scum (I used to be the same way lol). If that's the case and he already brought us Fe, I was kind of hoping he would lead us to another scum and then we could lynch him for the win. That's part of what made me so excited when he was supporting my LastWagon. But then Last flipped town and for the second day in a row, I was dead wrong which is really weird for me. And at the same time, another game just ended where I was dead wrong. Like this is to the point where I feel like I need to change my whole approach to mafia again, which does happen as the game evolves. Anyone who has been around a few years will understand. For example, nacho isn't the same player he was when he first came to the site.

But anyway, back to Majiffy. Is he scum who bussed Day 1, saw it wasn't working, and ran a bussing-style lynch on a townie? Or is he town who just got it right Day 1? Honestly, his play looks town other than that and it's hard to lynch someone for a bussing meta because if he's a good scumhunter, it just means his bussing meta will screw him in his better town games.

But yeah, I've been hesitant to share all of this just in case he was scum who decided to bus.

I don't know. Part of me wants the game over with so I can evaluate the changes the game has gone through. There has to be a reason for this slump.

[Kmd4390]

I meant on Last, not Fe.

What questions did I miss?

[Kmd4390]

Uct, "also". Mollie isn't voting solely for info in that post.

[Kmd4390]

Penguin lynch is a horrible idea.

[Kmd4390]

Explain

[Kmd4390]

Why is penguin scum? I don't see it.

[Kmd4390]

*sigh*

[Kmd4390]

unvote, vote uct

[Kmd4390]

While I think uct is scum and maenara is town, 1133 makes no sense at all. Failed logic is a scum claim now? I don't get it.

------------

Mollie, can you quote director's post? I didn't think there was a case on penguin and it sounds like I just missed it.

On majiffy, I already know you are wrong on him bussing me after fe. So if he's scum, this isn't the case from my point of view. So that really doesn't help my thinking and it won't help yours after I'm dead.

As for the issues with my play, and I want to keep this brief because it may be a bit off topic, it seems like certain things that used to be town tells no longer are. Like someone will drop one of those obvtown tells, and I'll see them as town for the majority of the game. Then they flip scum and I'm all WTF. In the past, these tells would lead me to enough strong town reads to nail the scum by process of elimination. Maybe it's time to stop townhunting and scumhunt more? I don't really know, but I'll figure it out at some point.

The vibe I get from your posts is just that you seem to be a good player. Sure, I don't really have results to prove it and I haven't looked at your stats or past games or whatever, but you seem to be playing well regardless of your alignment. Do you see what I am saying about majiffy's meta though?

By slump, I mean that my reads have been much worse than normal in my past few games. I was wrong on both Fe and Last in this game. I just had a game end where two of my strongest town reads were scum and all of my scum reads were town. And the last few before that weren't much better. I like to think I've been good at this game in the past. I mean, I've nailed plenty of scum Day 1 and sometimes their partners if I survive long enough. I've generally picked right in 3P LYLO. Even in town losses, I'll be the guy going "dammit! I told you guys so and so was scum!". But lately, I just can't do it.

-------------

Bork, no way in hell that is a scum slip. People compare town play to scum play all the time. And this type of comparison ("you remind me of how I play as town/scum") is especially common for players who have played 5-10 games. It's not a slip or a tell.

[Kmd4390]

Bork, yeah, I was agreeing with you that if someone thinks that is a slip, they are dead wrong.

[Kmd4390]

Meh. Maybe I should have directed it at maenara even though your post triggered the response. Either way, I assume it's all clarified and what not.

[Kmd4390]

^I agree with Majiffy.

[Kmd4390]

Hey I voted uct before it was cool

[Kmd4390]

Mollie, I haven't ignored anyone. If I missed something, quote it for me.

[Kmd4390]

Huh?

[Kmd4390]

Penguin, why does your post sound like you are trying to make a reason to vote me up until the part where you say my play doesn't make sense as scum today? Like, you go on about how if I'm scum, I'm handing the game over to town, and you seem to think I'm scum, yet it's a bad idea to lynch me except in case of deadline? And then you have a mini-case on Uct, but you say there's no case. It's very hard to tell what your opinions are when you throw both sides of an arguement out there without much of a committed conclusion. Like after reading that post, I still have no idea what your read is on two of the three players you talk about.

[Kmd4390]

Someone's bitter about my Day 1 push on his slot.

[Kmd4390]

Mollie, I haven't backtracked. I've said penguin is probably town swince Day 1. I'll read 1194 when I'm not on a short break at work.

[Kmd4390]

At some point, I'll wade through "let's get drunk and play marathons" to see if any game stuff has happened. That probably won't be today. If not tomorrow, I have free time Thursday.

[Kmd4390]

Uct, bork, ns are my top three scum.

Maenara, penguin, mollie for town.

[Kmd4390]

Yeah does "tia" mean something or...?

[Kmd4390]

And it took me forever to figure out "WRT", but I think that was penguin.

[Kmd4390]

Anyone else think Uct is more concerned with everyone's actual thoughts than finding who is scum? Looks like a pretty basic psychological tell for a mentality of "what do they think of me and my team" rather than "who is being deceptive". That alone should be enough reason to vote Uct. If Uct flips scum, we can use these posts to clear people. For example, 1351 would clear mollie.

[Kmd4390]

Anyone else think Uct is more concerned with everyone's actual thoughts than finding who is scum? Looks like a pretty basic psychological tell for a mentality of "what do they think of me and my team" rather than "who is being deceptive". That alone should be enough reason to vote Uct. If Uct flips scum, we can use these posts to clear people. For example, 1351 would clear mollie.

mollie is already town
so is uct

So you don't get that impression from uct? Or you don't want to look because you already have Uct as town?

[Kmd4390]

Nacho answered fine. Uct's response is pretty bleh though.

[Kmd4390]

Did I miss anything other than more lists and dumb majiffy votes? Been busy

[Kmd4390]

K

[Kmd4390]

Cool story bro.

[Kmd4390]

So I've read up on this and if uct flips scum, buld is his buddy. I'll explain why after uct's flip.

[Kmd4390]

Wow a lot of.....

I just got information lynched. ;_; the irony

vanilla townie

No one is lynching you for info

[Kmd4390]

Nice try though

[Kmd4390]

Fuck.

Is uct town?

Majiffy, nacho, a little help please.

[Kmd4390]

Good question.

unvote, vote nobody special

SPEEDWAGON GOGOGO

[Kmd4390]

I'll catch up probably Wednesdayish.

[Kmd4390]

This is dumb.

vote nobody special

[Kmd4390]

Because nacho said to before he got lynched yesterday......

[Kmd4390]

Oh shit forgot about the buld thing.

He did his system thing which seemed to implicate uct until the final shuffle dropped him on the lynch order. Then he said something about "if we are using this" like he was pushing us to come to a consensus that ignores uct and lynches (was it majiffy/penguin?), who he was all "I don't think they're scum but oh well".

unvote, vote buld

[Kmd4390]

Oh and i'd love it if fizz's slot ended up being scum after the whole Day 1 thing.

[Kmd4390]

unvote

I agree with bork. Buld broke site rules and I have a town read now as a result...

*sigh*

I think bork also becomes a town read due to his reaction to it.

This changes things quite a bit. I need to think...

[Kmd4390]

Yeah but we can't keep up the popcorn thing now. Penguin wanted buld who is town because he pointed out that he "doesn't lose" sig bets and is willing to stake that perfect record in this game........

[Kmd4390]

This game was the first I've heard of a popcorn lynch. Thought it was made up on the spot. I'd have done it if I had a scum read on penguin.