Mini Normal 1829 - Game Over

[Thor665]

Vote: Blitzkrieg

[Thor665]

Why do you town read Blitz?

[Thor665]

Why is it dumb?

[Thor665]

It's RVS - everything is NAI right now as far as anyone can tell.
So calling anything stupid doesn't make any more sense than wagoning someone over something of debatable alignment value.
I don't get your issue.

[Thor665]

And your vote hop on Blitzkrieg looked extremely opportunistic.

How exactly was it opportunistic?
I voted the biggest wagon. By definition a wagon will exist that will be biggest with my vote, or is already biggest and I can vote for it upon arrival.
It's impossible not to have that ability.

[Thor665]

We cannot ascertain whether the vote that Blitz made was her being scum strengthening the BW to achieve a ML or town applying pressure to get the game going.

So if applying pressure to get the game going is townie, why is a wagon on blitz a bad thing?

Welcome to the transcendental lack hole of logic.

VOTE: MichelSableheart

Deciding between "of course my reasoning is forced" and Transcend's page 2 faux-rage was a toughie let me tell you

How is admitting that the reasoning is forced a scumtell?
I'm openly admitting to voting the biggest wagon because it's the biggest - that's an admission of lack of scum read and bandwagoning for the sake of a wagon. That's just as scummy.
What are you smoking here?

[Thor665]

Thor what do you think of Sable atm?

I
m actually pretty happy to sheep him because he was the first one out of the gate who actively tried to scumhunt.
Maybe it's scum just faking away.
Ockham says - if you see scumhunting, call it town.

Michel seemed to be talking a big game and the sharp turn where he criticized his own wagon seemed off to me. It's not that he did it - it's that he did it after acting all confident.

I see no hypocrisy between pressing initial scumhunting as a town concept and also finding people questioning initial scumhunting as a scum concept.
In fact those combined stances seem to make a lot of sense together.
What am I missing?

[Thor665]

Also, if Transcend thinks Michael is scummy, than no matter what Transcend's alignment, the reality is probably the opposite

[Thor665]

What do you think of my Trancend vote?

I think it's fine.

[Thor665]

Why is Trancend a town read?

Meta.

His usual reaction to claims of meta is to sound like a 5 year old and claim that meta is trash, and he can't be read by meta.
He happily went along with your read.

How does that play into his meta in your mind, and also please explain the meta that got you to town read him - I want to know how much to trust it as a read.

Where the F did I say "I want to stay in RVS stage!" I'm saying we're still in it

RVS is subjective - some people can be in it and some out of it.
If you say you're out of it - why are you voting like you're in it?
I agree with Nero's question, your commentary lacks any logic.

This is all cute and all you wanting me to explain my reasoning with a pressure vote because none of you scumread me I am null or townread simple your cheap try to get me to explain won't work if you unvote me I'll say why I made such a statement if not. I have nothing to say about it

Unvote: Blitzkrieg
Vote: MariaR

There, now the pressure that isn't pressure that you want gone before you answer anything is even less there.

[Thor665]

You should vote Maria, that way she can duck answering until you unvote.

[Thor665]

Good, I don't want her to have a chance to answer any questions prior to her lynch.

[Thor665]

VOTE: Shadow_step I don't like this new avatar.

Dude, game is going and there are actually two potentially sexy wagons to be on - why you sidelining instead of sheeping me?

[Thor665]

I voted before I finished reading the thread, give me a moment or three.

I'm convinced Thor is either town, or scum.

Damn you and your eerie ability to peg me every time!

I don't like this refusal to explain from MariaR. Lets rope this.

The refusal to explain is your biggest issue with the slot?

[Thor665]

Why do both of them suck, and why are you not pushing a good wagon to combat the suck?

[Thor665]

why are you not pushing a good wagon to combat the suck?

because everyone's posts seem to revolve around one or both of these 2 being scum so far
so everyone is posting similar content and i have nothing appreciable to say yet

I will agree the game is currently centered around two or so players.
I don't understand how that proves they 'suck'?
I don't understand why, if you consider that an issue, that you're not trying to start conversations about other things.

Basically, if I get this right, you dislike the game state as far as how it serves town, but don't want to do anything to make it better.
Isn't that a scum tactic?

though I don't like a transcend/maria scumteam.

I'd agree with that.

Look at how fast this bw on me happened I am obv af town no one busses scum this early and anyone who has played with me knows how good a scum game I play you really think I'd let myself get caught no

If you play such a good scum game - why isn't your town game super towny looking?
The entire point of a towny scum game is to duplicate your town game.
That makes zero sense.

I don't think town would vote me this early because I honestly don't see the reason I'm getting voted is it cause my RVS question or because I won't answer because I need someone else to take a guess on what it is first I truly don't understand why I'm getting sr I was really excited to flip town this game and I didn't expect to be at L-2 on day 1 I only can assume some scum are on my wagon

You're at L-1 (well, -2 now) with a pseudo hammer intent from IAI.
How many scum do you think are in this game?
Because I'm willing to bet that some town are voting you.

Oh I answered in quotes ignore that last thing
Let me answer your 2nd part first I was going to start pushing on Transcend slightly and take back my meta read but I don't want to answer why until someone at least tries to guess to see if they agree with my line of

Would you answer my meta question to you about Transcend?
Because you're squawking about wanting to get a conversation started on that - but you are totally ducking my explicit meta discussion questions back.

[Thor665]

Ducking questions and doing walls of AtE and also acting like you need to be unvoted to start contributing.
None of those things ping my town bells.

Could you answer my meta questions to you about Transcend now?

[Thor665]

Thor can you quote the question you asked me on Transcend I forgot it.

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p8309100

duplicate my town game as scum? Well I guess that could work but I change going into each game so I don't really have 1 type of game I know what some people town read me on and if I was scum in this case I'd use it to get me townread call it wifom if you want but it's truth.

Riiiiiight.
So you know exactly what you need to do to get a bunch of people to town read you.
You'll do it as scum to help your win con as scum.
But you won't do it as town to help your win con as town.
Not really buying that, feels like a silly AtE lie to me.

who said i dont want to do anything to make it better? it's just that everyone was putting out similar posts about maria/micchel so nobody's posts stood out

Reality told me - because it was the reality of what you were doing.

anyway im voting elyse now so this should no longer be an issue

I don't agree with that, you still don't look like you give a damn about explaining why either case is bad.
Are you scum just distancing from the wagon enough to get some town cred but not enough to risk dismantling it?

[Thor665]

It's apparently because she finds it "cheap"...

Yeah, but that's silly.

Here's a question:

Why does everyone have to explain every damn action they take this game.

They don't and no one is asking them to, some people are asking Maria about a very small amount of very specific actions - any other straw men to discuss?

Yes Thor I don't want to do those things to get them to townread me cause I feel like it's CHEAP if that makes you scumread me oh well

What is CHEAP about acting like a town player to people when you're town?
If that's CHEAP then isn't it even more CHEAP as scum?
I, personally, don't believe you have this capability.
Want to prove me wrong and act super town?
and....go!

I know Transcend better then any of you at this table you guys may not be able to meta read him but I can and I strongly strongly believe he is town.

I understand that you strongly townread him - you have made that very clear.
I asked specific questions about that townread and his reaction to it - could you try answering them now?

but laziness is generally NAI. does it deserve a policy lynch? sure, i suppose so. does it deserve to be hard scumread? absolutely not.

Same difference at the end of the day, you vote them, you lynch them, they flip - so I don't get the issue of debating about the specific word used.

@elyse
my point is her ate here is not helping her. its clearly backfiing on her
so stop with the "calulated" Smurf

I would note that the AtE specifically worked on JarJar and she town read him for it, which is perfectly within the sphere of AtE.
Who would you say is causing the AtE to "backfire" on her? (the only name I have for that list is Elyse, I noted it as scummy but was already voting her so it's a neutral break with me)
I don't see that happening at all, what are you seeing?

[Thor665]

Okay, that was the first part of the question, let's revisit the second part; can you explain the meta that you saw that enabled you to meta read him? (I'm asking this kind of tongue in cheek because I'm pretty sure the answer is no, but I'm obligated to ask anyway)

[Thor665]

I'm sorry I couldn't convince you

No you're not, because you refused to use your super secret power CHEAP town read skills.
SO actually you're trying to intentionally play a less effective town game than you're capable of - so if we lynch you, it's your fault

[Thor665]

Yes, I am asking you to describe the meta, so I can see your thought process and perhaps share your town read on the slot, as that would be helpful for me to sort both you and him.
It's a crazy habit I have when playing - weird, i know, but it works for me.

[Thor665]

I suppose you're right I'd rather lose and be proud of the game I played then feel bad and win

I wouldn't feel proud playing beneath my skill level - but whatever floats your boat I suppose.

[Thor665]

It's a crazy habit I have when playing - weird, i know, but it works for me.

I'll explain the parts that I can he gets upset quite easy as town and does a lot of suboptimal stuff doing stuff that only transcend wants he's more likely to appeal to the town's needs as mafia I also think a big part of it is his non caring tone [/quote]
How has he particularly done any of this so far this game?

He hasn't made any suboptimal plays moreso than half the rest of the game.
He hasn't got upset beyond *maybe* the push on you as a scumread, and that came after your meta read of him.
I haven't particularly got a "don't care" vibe from him, and even if I squinted and decided it was there it appears to come after your read on him.

Am I just totally blowing this?

[Thor665]

I'll explain the parts that I can he gets upset quite easy as town and does a lot of suboptimal stuff doing stuff that only transcend wants he's more likely to appeal to the town's needs as mafia I also think a big part of it is his non caring tone

How has he particularly done any of this so far this game?

He hasn't made any suboptimal plays moreso than half the rest of the game.
He hasn't got upset beyond *maybe* the push on you as a scumread, and that came after your meta read of him.
I haven't particularly got a "don't care" vibe from him, and even if I squinted and decided it was there it appears to come after your read on him.

Am I just totally blowing this?

[Thor665]

im mostly talking about her unprovoked early claim

I think Elyse was the only one who called that out as an issue, am I recalling that wrong?
Or is "Elyse" the sum total answer for how the AtE is backfiring on Maria?

[Thor665]

I suppose you're right I'd rather lose and be proud of the game I played then feel bad and win

I wouldn't feel proud playing beneath my skill level - but whatever floats your boat I suppose.

You'd do anything you could do to win even if it could make the game unenjoyable for the people you're playing with? I won't judge but you do you

Huh? Aren't you telling us that this is EXACTLY HOW YOU PLAY AS SCUM?

She is, it's all bull-hooey as an answer.
The only question is if you think she honestly believes that dreck or not.

His sub optimal idc was going after the bliz wagon and the mini caps rage is what I noted

The mini caps rage would be an utter lark to fake - are you saying he doesn't fake it at all as scum?

Would you describe Kraskos as unoptimally playing the game? Because he's doubled down and gone *way* further than Transcend on that value call if that's how you take it, and if it's a town read from Transcend for playing badly, why aren't you dinging or discussing anything with the guy doing it much worse to defend you?

What shocks me is you don't get the "I don't care vibe" I think that's the most clear out of them all the other 2 I can understand if you don't get but the 3rd rly?

He is posting constantly in the game thread.
If he "doesn't care" then he has a strange way of showing it.
How are you getting a "don't care" vibe out of a guy who has posted over 25 times in the past four hours?

[Thor665]

No, it is.

[Thor665]

I mean, you say playing to win as town would be CHEAP and make people feel bad.
But you're totally okay doing it as scum, except you try really hard not to - but we should see that you're not scum because you aren't doing the things you try hard not to do as scum, that would be easy to shake this wagon off of you with.

You either do the things or you don't - if you don't do them because you think they would make people have bad feels - that shouldn't change with alignment.
It's very contradictory as a stance.

I, personally, think you're blowing hot air, but even if you're telling the truth your stance makes no internal sense.

[Thor665]

im mostly talking about her unprovoked early claim

I think Elyse was the only one who called that out as an issue, am I recalling that wrong?
Or is "Elyse" the sum total answer for how the AtE is backfiring on Maria?

elyse called it out
but i also thought it was really bad and almost reconsidered my read on her. just bc noone else came and said stuff doesnt mean i cant think her ate here wasnt helping her acquit herself

So you agree with me that her AtE actions look bad, even though you think the wagon is terrible?
If you think the wagon is terrible, but you kinda buy into the wagon...how does that work?

[Thor665]

im mostly talking about her unprovoked early claim

I think Elyse was the only one who called that out as an issue, am I recalling that wrong?
Or is "Elyse" the sum total answer for how the AtE is backfiring on Maria?

elyse called it out
but i also thought it was really bad and almost reconsidered my read on her. just bc noone else came and said stuff doesnt mean i cant think her ate here wasnt helping her acquit herself

So you agree with me that her AtE actions look bad, even though you think the wagon is terrible?
If you think the wagon is terrible, but you kinda buy into the wagon...how does that work?

i already explained this before...we're just going around in circles at this point
the unprovoked nature of her claim and the way some of her reactions were kinda ott when the situation didnt warrant that makes me think this isnt scum

Okay, so her AtE *worked* on you? Right?
Like, if she's scum it worked.
If she's town and had an honest emotional reaction it also "worked" insomuch as you got an accurate read.

That is the opposite of a scum theory AtE backfire though - if she's scum (and this comment is based on that as a concept to rebut your stance), on you and JarJar her ploy "worked" correct?

So where is the "backfire" you're complaining about?
She seems to be two town reactions to one scum reaction. That's a win, maybe not a great one, but it's assuredly not a backfire.

[Thor665]

So as scum you play to win and hurt people's feels.
As town you always and always refuse - because getting a town role PM changes your breaking point.

[Thor665]

Unvote: MariaR
Vote: Elyse

The Kraska wagon is fine.
The IAI wagon is comical.
The Geryoat wagon is okay, but I don't think anyone has actually thought through the bad play to translate it into pro-scum play, and when they do they'll see it's a pretty empty agon at this stage.

[Thor665]

I am disappointed in you Thor.

You're saying you think Elyse looks more towny than Kraska?

The only way Kraska looks scummy is by a one on one off sort of theory - in which case you'd still need one on, so...what are you talking about?

My one vote (which is apparently a bandwagon) on IAI is comical. Great meme, Thor.

How many votes does it take to make a wagon a wagon?
Until then we can call it whatever you like - how about an avocado.
Your avocado is laughable.

[Thor665]

"Instead of responding to points"
What points elyse? Jar doesn't comment at all on the content of my defenses (like...he even holds me pointing out that his first post wasn't serious against me when there was nth wrong with what I said). His case on me in a nutshell is I've "defended" a bunch of people and that somehow makes me scum

Didn't you say you were going to explain ur sr on me? I'm w8ing for that

Do you defend this much when playing as scum, or is constant defense on Day 1 a town only trait for you?

[Thor665]

I still don't think I did anything to warrant a sr on me

How many scum do you think voted you?
Yeah - you did stuff to get scumread.
You even admitted that you weren't doing towny things on purpose because it would be CHEAP - so what are you even talking about?

We're not lynching Gerry unless you can explain why what he did is scummy in any way at all.
In other news - vote for Elyse.

[Thor665]

no I admitted I wasn't doing things that some people tr me on your def of towny is flawed you're not a dictator people already said what Gerry did for me it should be simple once you look at over he's not stupid enough to "slip" I already said that was forced as Smurf

Yeah, I'm well aware you aren't doing things - I'm over discussing that because you wear poor play like a badge.

In other news - sure, i agree with you, I don't think Gerry did an unintentional slip, it absolutely looked intentional.
Now, for the million dollar question - how does that make him scum exactly?
Because I don't see it at all.
You, clearly, do, so explain it to me.
I (pray) think that maybe after you do so, you'll understand why I like the Elyse wagon or the Kraska wagon so much better, and then maybe you'll move your vote.
So, please, walk me through it.
Gerry is scum, he intentionally does what he does - and go!

Thor why are you scumreading me

Because your vote looked the most opportunistic on a theory Mason, so I want to flip you on the presumption that with a functional lynch wagon onsaid Mason (counting IAI) and mason buddy off, that we are looking at near assured scum on the wagon.

I wish you had voted Kraska b/c I think she's going to flip scum. Prob.

There is no evidence to particularly support this beyond the defense, and I'm still waiting to hear Kraska discuss the meta implications of said defense (something you should have asked basing your case off it like you have).

Who do you think was the scum on the wagon?

[Thor665]

Who do you think was the scum on the wagon?

Why are you asking me this?

Don't you think its kinda talking out of both sides of your mouth WRT Kraska?

I am asking you this, because I want your analysis, because I feel evidence points to Elyse, and I want you to join that wagon.
You appear to be suggesting IAI and Karnos. IAI is actually a bit of a soft value call there for on, but I can see the logic. I don't see the Karnos logic at all.

I don't see how it's talking out of both sides of my mouth at all - explain the contradiction to me?

[Thor665]

Michel mislynched me last game b/c I didn't know why scum wasn't on the wagon, I think its theoretically possible that scum avoided the wagon.

Meh, that happens, but is a dramatic statistical outlier - I see no reason to believe it happened here.
In fact, for it to have happened here, literally every town player besides Transcend, Maria, and one other would have had to vote her.

[Thor665]

Why do you think kraska is town?

I'll second this - I would rather lynch Elyse, but the Kraska push feels valid to me.

[Thor665]

Do you think they are on the same team? Both are voting each other. While Elyse threw the L-1 vote at Maria, Kraska came crashing down on Elyse by attacking/voting her. I don't see the two aligned, and Elyse's play has been far scummier in my opinion.

PS - Someone attacked Kraska for having too many town reads/not being aggressive Day 1. I think having too many town reads is not how scum like to play, they like to keep their options open and allow for easy flip flopping later, so I respectfully disagree with that point.

I am not convinced they are scumbuddies.
I will agree they are voting each other.
I will agree that Elyse's play is scummier - pretty sure I'm voting her.
I disagree that Kraska has too many town reads - he's attacking wagons, he isn't calling people town.

Basing your scumreads on unconfirmed (and probably false) mason claims is ridiculous

Link me to any game wherein scum fakeclaimed Masons day 1 and I'll be much inclined to move my vote.

I thought you were town this time. Am I wrong?

No.
Now let's flip you and find out if I'm wrong.

[Thor665]

***For those who haven't played with me, I don't say what these early game town and scum tells are cause once you do, people learn to avoid making these tells in future games.

No they don't.

Unvote: Elyse
Vote: Maria

[Thor665]

Thor I see what you mean, but saying wagons suck and not seeing players as scum is transferable to a somewhat town read. If kraska later jumped on Maria, Michel, or Transcend later without good reason, she'd be strung up quicker than a kite.

No she wouldn't, and all of the defenses were via attacks, not actual defenses.

Still I give town points to defending two claimed masons before it was cool to do so.

[Thor665]

Town gambits are a thing but I think that scum usally buy claims from town.

Unless one of the fake claimers is scum, natch.

You don't soft pr very much unless you really are pr I rarely see you do it as blue and you are scummy for the gamit but not on the tier of Sable/Elyse maybe I'm wrong on you could be.

Then why were you arguing with me and voting him in the first place when I wanted you to vote Elyse?

Thor, what makes you say that Elyse's vote was the most opportunistic on the wagon?

Timing and over justification off dreck.

Link me to any game wherein scum fakeclaimed Masons day 1 and I'll be much inclined to move my vote.

Did you miss where I said I fakeclaimed mason as scum with a townie and won?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=32269

Yeah, my specific ask was for scum to fakeclaim with scum, though I'll agree you could have read it differently, but that's what you were selling, and that's what I was suggesting never happens.

[Thor665]

I'm particularly townreading blitzkrieg, Thor and you, with more doubts about JJD, Elyse and Nero.

I would easily and happily argue that JarJar and Nero are both blatantly better townreads than Blitz (or IAI for that matter).
Why are you conflicted on those two?

[Thor665]

Blah, it's like my timezone is just bad for this game. 6 hours and 1 new post other than mine and the mod. But then I go home from work for the night and come back to 10 new pages worth of spam.

You and I have had wall wars - so this can't be true.

[Thor665]

Gonna get on my comp in a sec cause y'all are pissing me off for now

VOTE: karnos

Is Karnos doing something more scummy, or is Elyse doing something less scummy?
I mean, I know I'm suggesting that you're just opportunistically vote hopping, but I'd love to hear your version.

[Thor665]

If you think it's a chainsaw defense, why not vote Maria, since she has more support for a lynch?

[Thor665]

I could be wrong about this being a chainsaw reaction but that doesn't mean transcend isn't scum. Transcend could be scum independently.

If it's the chainsaw making you vote - you're doing it wrong.
If it's something else, you should talk about the something else rather than talking about the chainsaw.

Bliz and Thor are lost causes because they're ego tunneling at this post and should just leave.

Where should we go?

if we have a vig shoot Karnos please and if he flips green I'll self vote there is 100% mafia in Elyse/Karnos look at this back pedal

I'm glad you're not egotunneling...wait...

What about if we kill Elyse first, do we get the same deal?
If no - why?
If yes - why call out Karnos first?

Yeah, my specific ask was for scum to fakeclaim with scum, though I'll agree you could have read it differently, but that's what you were selling, and that's what I was suggesting never happens.

I was never selling that Maria and Transcend were scumbuddies who claimed masons together

Your initial comment was that I shouldn't scumread you for believing their claims.
I guess it works if you're only talking one of them as opposed to both, but it weakens your point.

[Thor665]

If I was ego tunneling I'd be prob voting you I'm not ego tunneling. You don't get the same deal with Elyse because I get the nagging feeling they're not partners and my sr on her was for 2 posts while the rest of her game has been fine

What did Karnos do to basically put you at 100% scum read on him?

[Thor665]

god, i hate day 1 in forum mafia. it's such a clusterfuck. And I can never get reads until one person is lynched. Someone mentor me in better day 1s as town and what to look for.

Personally I think you just try to force interactions and reactions - then you lynch someone.

[Thor665]

@Maria - So, basically, the OMGUS?
I don't get what's pro scum with the hammer comment I don't get what's pro town with it either, but I fail to see how that adds to a scum case beyond the flop on you after you attacked him.

[Thor665]

And Gerry is prob town fml

[Thor665]

@Maria - So, basically, the OMGUS?
I don't get what's pro scum with the hammer comment I don't get what's pro town with it either, but I fail to see how that adds to a scum case beyond the flop on you after you attacked him.

Na I don't really understand his thinking it seems quite forced and rapid like he wants to give off the impression he's in a conflict and that's what he did in the first few posts but then it changed so randomly I just don't see how you get to this thinking the omgus has nothing to do with it if he voted anyone that way it would have ringed bells

I actually said the OMGUS had everything to do with it.
Have you ever played with Karnos before? Good logic is not his long suite - but he's not spewing utter dreck like I've seen him do as scum.

sure of it???

pretty sure.

You're volunteering for death if he flips town - I thought that was assured sure.

[Thor665]

I feel like your pronouns are mixed.
Are you really saying we shouldn't lynch Michael because he's so lynchable and that's why his wagon on Maria sucked - or are you saying that about Maria as a scum tell on Michael?

[Thor665]

Are you really saying we shouldn't lynch Michael because he's so lynchable

this ^ ...although i dont like the way you put it here

and i havent talked about maria at all in that post
why are you confused?

post on maria coming up next

I was confused because the Michael wagon got up to about three votes for about an hour, so I wasn't sure if you were really claiming it was large or easy pickings since it never really had traction.

[Thor665]

btw i hate it when people say

"if x flips town you get lynched tomorrow"

town are always gonna make errors. they don't have the scumteam pinned like scum do....... perhaps what you should do is analyze if the error they made was a genuine town mistake or not....

I agree, when Maria said that it was silly and not a good thing to say.

[Thor665]

I feel awkward being the only one not voting, I need to find a vote. First one to make a convincing argument on who i should vote and why wins my vote for today

With about three days left, if you don't have any opinions at all you should vote for the biggest wagon.
If you have opinions, you should vote for your strongest scumread with the most votes on them.

[Thor665]

gerryoat (L-6) : Shadow_step.

kraska77 (L-6) : Nero Cain.

MichelSableheart (L-6) : Transcend.

karnos (L-6) : MariaR.

These people also have useless votes in play unless they want to really start pushing them.

[Thor665]

I've actually defended you more than anyone else in this game - how do you look at that and get the idea I want you lynched?

[Thor665]

nero has defended me the most. but why defend me? why am i town to you?

You're actually changing the conversation and ducking the question I asked you, so after I answer this distract question I'm going to repeat mine.

I defended you because the case on you was shallow and dumb - I asked a very simple question 'how is what he did scummy?' and the wagon disintegrated.
That drastically proves my stance, and absolutely justifies the defense.

Now, back to you, what the heck were you talking about suggesting I wanted you lynched? That came out of nowhere, had no support in reality, and was pants on head levels of 'bwuh?'. Why did you say it?

@Blitzkrieg, Thor: Feel free to join me on the Transcend wagon. If only one out of Transcend/Maria is scum, it's more likely to be Transcend (who started the fakeclaim) then Maria (who only went along with it).

I would be more likely to join the Kraska or Elyse wagon than to hop on a Transcend wagon at this stage - your case has loose merit at best, and overlooks that despite it being bad play people do that sort of gak all the time.

[Thor665]

If you really did what you did, then we'll find out.
If you didn't, I'm fine with playing like it's a bluff.
You've already got your "reaction" so the gambit if it's a gambit has already done the "benefit" and if it's not a gambit then there's no negativity in communicating with him.

[Thor665]

I'm not saying he does it all the time (though he might, for all I know).
I'm saying town players do it all the time.

[Thor665]

Like, in this game's playerlist alone we have Elyse, who has done it as scum, and Nero who has done it as town.
And that's presuming no one else has done it, and for all I know they have.
It's not a valid tell.

[Thor665]

But you're never going to find actions in thread that town would never take. If town never takes them, scum can't afford to take them either or they would get lynched in a heartbeat.

If you know nothing about a player, he has a certain chance to be scum.

If he subsequently takes an action that he's very likely to take if he's scum, and not likely to take if he's town, it becomes far more likely that he's scum, even if there are situations where he would take that action as town.

That is a gross oversimplification of my rebuttal, and also of the very concept of the game.
The point is that actions have rough percentages, some are more likely to be done as scum, or as town, even though both alignments do them.
You are presenting that there is zero chance town do what he did.
I am showing evidence that town explicitly do it - and am suggesting they do it in fairly even numbers.
You're then debating emptiness with me, I don't get it.

It was a GAMBIT???????

My entire core is shocked to the foundations indeed.
At least he got a good reaction test to analyze, except for the good and the reaction part.

[Thor665]

The logic is bad, but, frankly, Maria's last dozen posts are pretty much empty air which is also bad and you super strong town read her, so I don't know why you're getting hung up on only Michael's brand of bad.

[Thor665]

Like, Michael is using iffy logic - but he's presenting it clearly, not obfuscating, and openly is willing to debate.
That vibes town to me.
Sure, maybe not quality town I want to sheep - but I don't feel like he's trying to game stuff.

Maria did more of a fake reaction to your test than anyone did, and openly misrepped me, and when I pointed it out just ignored that she did it - which even in the kindest of world's suggests she's town who isn't reading for comprehension.

So why do you hate on Michael and love on Maria?

PEdit - opportunistic where and how? I called Maria out on being opportunistic and her best rebuttal was agreeing with me.

[Thor665]

I like making filler posts what can I say.

I'm aware, there is a reason this game is so bloated.

[Thor665]

PEdit - opportunistic where and how? I called Maria out on being opportunistic and her best rebuttal was agreeing with me.

@Transcend

thor why do you keep saying im a good lynch
also sorry i got distracted and forgot to complete my catchup
i'm on it now

Revelations 3:16 mostly.
You barely exist - when you skate that much you shouldn't act shocked that people are fine with your lynch.

[Thor665]

Someone rando votes Blitzkrieg. The only post that Blitz made was a vote to BW my joke vote on Maria.

I felt the way Michel planted his vote on Blitzkrieg was very tactical and not genuine.

He over justified his reason to vote her based on one measly factor.

Translation - he places an RVS vote

Few pages later I fakeclaim mason to save my townread blablabla I fess up to lying since it was a deliberate fake claim anyways.

JJD votes me most likely for legitimate reasons.

Michel said I was scum for quite some time but only votes me when JJD votes me. "hmm this could possibly get momentum lemme go here".

Translation - votes you for fakeclaim, which is a perfectly functional vote, and though it might be opportunistic, is opportunistic off the fake claim, not off JarJar.

Long story short, he hasn't done anything independently and he's just candy coating the lynches he think will get some momentum with stupid, flawed reasons.

Even if this is true - there's just as many examples for Maria, and since none of them are excusable as RVS, better examples.
So I have to kind of ask again, do you think you're ignoring/handwaving Maria's actions and focusing/tunneling Michael's?

I'm more of quality>quantity guy fwiw. I think kraska's "lack" of content is NAI.

Since he lacks both quality and quantity - I don't see the real debate point here.

No, I'm presenting that there is a relatively low chance that he does it as town, and a very high chance that he does it as scum.

You have failed to show this in any way.
What you *have* argued is that town shouldn't do what he did, a point I will happily agree with, but that is not then translatable into a low chance that he or other town would do that action.

That you can find an example where a town player fakeclaimed mason doesn't really counter that. Given your evidence, I have a 50% chance of lynching scum if I lynch someone fakeclaiming mason, as opposed to (generally) a 3 in 13 chance if I lynch completely randomly. Those are awesome odds!

I am willing to wager that outside of L-1 situations town fakeclaims more than scum do, even allowing for the larger number of players that draw town roles and allowing that alignment is not a fakeclaim.

You are also being a bit fast and loose with percentages there, as one could easily argue that any given player has a 50% chance to flip scum, as well as a 23% chance in this setup. I am not interested in debating percentages when neither you nor I have anything remotely close to valid info to draw those numbers from.

*shrugs* i think i did influence the game somewhat? even if im getting voted, my posts made a ripple...atleast gamestate is no longer stuck in a michel vs maria loop

If you want to argue that a player caused that as opposed to the natural flow of the game, then it was Transcend who did that - not you by any stretch of the imagination.

what about blitz tho? bc i think theyre skating for real and im scumreading that slot

I think he's done more than you, and though I don't particularly town read him, I have a stronger town vibe there than a scum vibe at the moment. If you want that case you need to actually sell it. I'd lynch you over him with a smile on my face and not a second thought.

[Thor665]

I don't think his vote was RVS.

It was just as much RVS as mine - all votes have motivation, that is the nature of a vote. It doesn't make it opportunistic though, unless you want to suggest that he figured by placing the second vote he would magically end up on the biggest wagon in the game.

i don't think he's good enough to predict that - and if he is, then he's probably already done the actions that will win him this whole game as we lack all free choice.

[Thor665]

I also feel you're trying to slide my Maria handwave question.
Come on man, she openly admitted opportunism - why is it a big issue with Michael and not a peep about her?

Even if you just want to say "she's opportunistic as town!" you need to have an answer there, or you need to be aware of your tunnel.

[Thor665]

Like I genuinely don't get the case on her... her votes that can be seen as "opportunistic" don't seem tactical, they seem genuine to me.

Okay, so your argument is that her votes aren't opportunistic (despite her admission) due to 'feels'.
That's an answer, I suppose.

WHAT.

I think my logic is perfectly good. It's not fit to the "mafiascum meta 101", but I've seen enough games where proclaimed experts write walls and walls about reads, evidence, slips, etc, and then proceed to lynch a town player. It's all a lot of BS. Real logic requires a factual basis, most of the logical deductions that can be made in the game don't occur until day 2, when a some bit of real hard information is available.

You suggest your logic is good, and then present a case against people who make walls, which has nothing to do with logic, and using the evidence of 'they were wrong' to attack a situation that may or may not have been based off logic.
I feel your answer here supports my stance.

i kind of lost every last ounce of interest in this game...

Replace out then as a kindness to the people who are still invested in the game.

[Thor665]

You suggest your logic is good, and then present a case against people who make walls, which has nothing to do with logic, and using the evidence of 'they were wrong' to attack a situation that may or may not have been based off logic.
I feel your answer here supports my stance.

Huh? A case? I'm not presenting a case, I'm presenting EVIDENCE. Logic works. Making fake logic visible to everybody and using it to look towny... well that make "work" if your goal is to look towny, but it doesn't catch scum any more often than my logic does.

Look at any of my scum games, read the scum chat. We destroy people who post read lists and explain all their logic, because they are basically telling the scum team exactly what to do to win.

It's not logical to reveal your logic in game. So I don't see how you can say I'm not a logical player.

I'll stand by my commentary as stated.

[Thor665]

I would lynch Kraska, Maria, or Elyse. I would happily help policy Shadow.

[Thor665]

I would lynch Kraska, Maria, or Elyse. I would happily help policy Shadow.

Why not transcend

I would lynch Kraska, Maria, or Elyse. I would happily help policy Shadow.

Why not transcend

Because I don't particularly scumread him and don't see a valid case being pushed on him.
The most "valid" case I see is Michael's attempts, and I think I was fairly clear in my opinion on that case.
Why, what do you two see about the slot that should make me want to vote it?

Because literally the best case I could make is "he's derp tunneling" and I don't think tunneling is scummy, I just think it causes some anti-town issues occasionally.

[Thor665]

Because literally the best case I could make is "he's derp tunneling" and I don't think tunneling is scummy, I just think it causes some anti-town issues occasionally.

There's no way he can have such a strong scumread on Michel. Michel looks fine. Just like there's no way he can have such a strong townread on maria.

It looks like he decided what his reads were gonna be and then looked for reasons after the fact. Go reread his ISO. Look @ how many times he calls Michel scum w/o posting any real reason. He never tries to convince anyone that Michel is scum. He knows damn well that screaming "OMG HE'S OBVSCUM" isn't gonna get anyone to follow him.

I will agree his play is terrible.
Both Maria and I have played with him before and don't seem utterly shocked at this play.
Go read some of his games and then get back to me with a claim that this is a valid scumtell.
And please don't ask me to defend his play.

well what a scummy vote that was lol

That vote was not scummy at all - you're being intentionally offensive and Blitz is reacting to it.
You're not even mouthing off at me and I'm already rather tired of your posting method here.

@Mod - I would like to request a force replace of Transcend for repeated attacks of a personal nature. If You find his behavior acceptable, or desire to only give him a warning could you kindly replace me. I have no desire to play in a game with behavior like this as it removes my fun and makes it not a game. Thank you.

[Thor665]

Thor, join me on Transcend. If we are both alive tomorrow, we can lynch Maria. He's flailing hard core after JarJar caught him. We can only lynch one scum today.

He is not flailing in a scummy manner, and you are being blinded by annoyance or are attempting to sell me on annoyance as a scummy way to secure sheep. Neither option thrills me.

[Thor665]

When I ask him to support how Maria's posting has been town in the past 48 hours, he attacks me.
When JarJar highlights that Transcend has been tunnelling for 30 pages with hot air, Transcend unlocks a bevy of personal attacks.
When Transcend sees Maria pushed, he fakeclaims.
When caught, he weasels.

He will never ever justify an opinion because he doesn't have any.

I asked him to support the Maria thing and he did not attack me.
I've called what Transcend is doing tunneling, and did so first - he did not attack me.
I will agree he fakeclaimed - derp town could have done that, as already discussed.
I will agree he is weaseling insomuch as he provides basically nothing - have you read other games with him and found this to be unusual for the player?

I agree that getting him to justify an opinion is difficult, as I said, i do not wish to defend his play.
That said, there is a reason why the phrase 'anti-town' exists, because not everything that hurts town is pro scum.
He is anti-town.
I don't see a particularly solid point to translate that into him being pro-scum.
Maria is also being anti-town but in a way that is more calculated, and thus looks more like pro-scum play.
Want to vote her again?

I played in a game w/ scumtrans before and I think this is the same. He deathtunneled me the same way and also townread another player that everyone was scumreading (like here w/ maria).

Have you played with townTranscend?
I will agree that this is his playstyle - doesn't prove he's scum this game unless you can show me he plays differently as town.
I don't think he does.

You should both assess how your scum read is or isn't affected by his attitude in the last few pages.
If you're just annoyed at him, request replacement for him or yourself, as I have done.
But don't lie to yourselves or to me about how him being rude equates to him being scum - it just shows he's a rude person, his role PM doesn't change that.

[Thor665]

hey transcend thor asked for u to be force replaced or he gets replaced instead
can u be a good boy and promise not to do personal attacks anymore so thor retracts that?

I will not retract that - his behavior is not acceptable to me regardless of apologies.
I won't have fun playing the game if he stays, therefore one of us should leave so my personal annoyance doesn't color the game.

[Thor665]

i didn't even see that post.

i'll cool it down but please stop being braindead for cripes sake.

No apologies to me are needed, you didn't insult me.

[Thor665]

@Blitz - I would still advise separating personal offense from gameplay. Judging by your reactions, you should probably do what I'm doing and either replace out or request his replacement. Whatever your alignment, your play is deleterious to your team, and you should always remember these are games - if you're not having fun you should alter the situation, not play based on the concept of not having fun.

@Kraska - I appreciate your efforts, but I don't make willy-nilly replace out requests. There is literally nothing Transcend could say within this game to change my mind. A few months from now if I see different playstyle from him, yes, that would change my mind, but within this game my mind is very settled. I appreciate if he wants to claim his play style and language are "just a game" and respect that opinion. I have the opinion that I don't play with people like that, because it makes the game unfun. Due to [ongoing] I see no real liklihood of a play change in him regardless of his claims otherwise. I do apologize for the abrupt shift, but consider it a less negative effect on the game then me sitting here responding to the game in this state any longer.

[Thor665]

what do u say thor?

No thank you.

[Thor665]

But when one of the most respected posters here is willing to bail out due to someone continually insulting a 3rd person, I stand by that poster.

Aw, you make me blush.

In Transcend's defense, my personal desire to cope with that sort of gameplay has gone way down from what it probably used to be. If you're cool with it, I would suggest staying, I think the warm up of Day 1 was interesting, and I like some of the reads out there, I just don't need to be sorting through that much insulting and reacting to insult stuff while trying to sort reads. it's a headache, and unpleasant to me.

[Thor665]

:/

As I said, [ongoing].
Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

[Thor665]

Nah, it's your playstyle, and you're not capable of toning it down.

[Thor665]

We can discuss my thoughts on that after [ongoing] if you'd like, but I don't believe you're capable of doing what you are claiming - and that's fine, it just means I don't care to play with you. If other people aren't so wimpy, and/or enjoy that as a playstyle, that is awesome, you can play with them and have a great time. But I would be the grumpy cat in the corner pulling down the game the entire time - that's no bueno.

[Thor665]

I find them less odious than people not playing, but will agree they are not optimal or appreciated in any way.

[Thor665]

I have never been more sure of a read then Transcend is town just because you dis agree with a read doesn't make the person scummy and once you guys finally understand that our play may not be what you're use to doesn't make it scummy I can't stress enough me and him have done this before and we're town I bet none of you looked at the game I linked over and over to show we've done it before he's town I'm town please just believe me

I buy into the idea of Trans' slot being town.
You - not so much.

[Thor665]

I read Transcend as town (to your mind good at reading)
I read you as scum (to your mind bad at reading)
I would think I'd break even, no?

You have not provided any solid proof that you can't be scum - that is laughable as a concept.
I can't do that, and I know for a fact I'm town, so don't spit in the air and tell me it's raining.
I agree that you flipping scum would boost my ego.

[Thor665]

I read Transcend as town (to your mind good at reading)
I read you as scum (to your mind bad at reading)
I would think I'd break even, no?

You have not provided any solid proof that you can't be scum - that is laughable as a concept.
I can't do that, and I know for a fact I'm town, so don't spit in the air and tell me it's raining.
I agree that you flipping scum would boost my ego.

And you haven't given reason I'm scum
Filler posts-NAI
I've disproven your contradictions saying I'm not consistent isn't a tell when I know how to stay consistent as scum

I never claimed consistency or lack of it as a reason to scum read you - I did point out that it lacked logic, and that I didn't believe anyone should think that, but that's a different matter.

Nice dodge from your claim of factual proofs and me pointing out you're blowing hot air though. As even if that had been part of my case, you still didn't disprove it beyond claiming that it was your meta.

Thor

, talk to me a bit more about your read on Elyse. You've mentioned a few times in your ISO that you found her scummy and did vote for her, but beyond finding one of her votes opportunistic I haven't seen much development on it. I'm kind of worried since your vote seems parked on a vanity wagon when it looks like you can reasonably give a wagon on one of your other scumreads traction.

My vanity wagon used to be a lead wagon till the wagon on you exploded.
The wagon on you exploded due to people mixing up being a ponce with being scum.

Walls o words from late aughts

Even back when you were playing the '

Dayvig: Derp

gambit was a thing, most often done by town, and I swear done about once a week on site at a minimum, I saw it in every third game, I swear, so don't sell me some silly story that scum fakeclaim more than town. Yes, I absolutely believe the opposite is true.

I also don't care to debate the validity of the tactic - I don't fakeclaim as scum, so I'm hardly one to stat suggesting the tactic is good. But, yes, I've seen town do fakeclaims that were brilliant and worked well, and I've seen the opposite. The strategy is not inherently flawed, only the application is.

That your case requires this defense of theory walls about 'proper play' speaks volumes to its actual worth in my mind.

[quote="In post 1045, gigabyteTroubadour"There also seems to be a recurring belief that one of {Me, Maria} is mafia, but at the moment I'm townreading Maria so this thought process seems kind of weird to me. I can understand scum!Me/town!Maria and obviously town!Me/town!Maria, but I'm not exactly getting town!Me/scum!Maria. So, if this is still something people believe I would like to hear the logic behind scum!Maria.[/quote]
I would like to hear the logic from you that rules it out.
Maria is being an opportunistic voter, openly so, and an AtE machine, who isn't explaining anything beyond when she does a scummy act and then deigns to hang a hat on it as a defense, mixed with defensive claims that are themselves AtE and meta based on a claim of superlative scum play, despite admitting that on her other site her scum play is considered weak and her town play strong.

She needs death.

She literally just did a reaction test to clear Elyse and then voted her.
Seriously now.
Where's Michael and his optimal theory play case on that one?

Maria I hope you know that if you actually are town then I'm really disappointed

Only voting you cause I don't see any other wagon starting between and I tr giga over you sorry!

Translation: She's voting you because she's scum with giga.

Giga who refuses to finish reading the thread but has a townread on Maria.

If you believe this, could you vote MariaR please?
Since Giga/Transcend was willing to fakeclaim to protect her, clearly Maria is the PR of the pair, natch.

wait wtf transcend is gone. lame af. he's being tamed compared to what he says on EM lmao. w/e, i still haven't gotten anyone to convince me to vote with them, so I will still vote no one for now

I'm a Lie Detector who can only use his powers on the Mod - I can confirm that the Mod has informed me that there is 0% chance that a vote on 'no one' is on scum and that it detected as true.
You should try again.

[Thor665]

Thor, what are you talking about the vote on no one?

I am assuring the game that a vote on no one will never be a vote on scum.

Do you think we can swing Maria? I don't want to Unvote one scum to chase another.

Maria is very obviously a lynch option for the day.
At the moment it is a Maria v. Gerry situation, which is super exciting to me.

B: My townflip will probably point to the fact that town is looking in the wrong direction, which I think it is. I am completely serious when I say that I want people to just put Maria and Kraska on ignore D2 and focus on the slots that haven't received much pressure. Kraska is really obvious town and I know I'm going to be the only one who sees that. Maria could absolutely be scum, but she's still a distraction I think, especially when there are lurkers who I can't even read (I think Karnos might be the town one, that's really all I got). More slots need sorting and pressure, not enough work was done D1 because Transcend was an idiot. Starting D2 off with another RVS/AVS actually is not that far-fetched of an idea, that's how badly information starved I think this town is.

Your argument for you being distracting is equally applicable to Maria.
Your campaign here is either scummy or terrible town play - so stop it either way please and thank you.
I don't need a second Maria in the game.

I think he's a lurksack and I glared at him from the computer when he white knighted Thor. I think white knighting is p scummy and depending on how the game goes I may be up for lynching that.

What would be the gain of the white knight though?
Either I was being replaced - in which case no town pocket, or Trans was being replaced - which would weaken the scum vibe he was pushing on him, and also I was on record not supporting that lynch.

[Thor665]

Nero, you've been here since 2009 and you are asking me to reword my post because it's too confusing to you I *specifically* described why the two motivations of white knighting didn't apply in the instance you were calling a white knighting, and then asked what the point was.

Is there a third motivation I missed?
Is there a reason one of my explanations doesn't apply?
That's what I'm asking.

[Thor665]

Thor who are you reading as town?

Well, as I've said a couple of times;

Transcend/Giga
Nero
JarJar Drinks
Michael Sableheart

I haven't really said the following, but would also add;

IAI
maaaaaaaaaaybe Blitz.

Why?

thor, I don't think the situation where you may have replaced out makes any difference. Also he p much put the mod in the situation that unless he force replaced Trans he'd have to get replacements for you and him, so his hand was a bit forced I think. So yes, I think its something that he could do as scum.

Seems to have limited gain for him - wht about Kraska with his 'everyone get along' play? Why no comment on that as an alignment tell?

Thor so far:
"Lynch Maria for erratic play"
"Lunch elyse for opportunistic vote on Maria"
"I'd policy shadow"
"we're not lynching gerry because thats who Maria says is scum"
"I'd lynch kraska for being low activity"
"Both the Maria and gerry wagons excite me"

I would alter the not lynching Gerry one to "because there isn't a case on him" and the Kraska one to "for not taking a stance"
But otherwise, yeah, that's relatively accurate of opinions I've said.

Why post this (with, as usual, no actual opinion being expressed)?

[Thor665]

Why is Michel a strong townread(on par with nero and jar) when you have pointed out lots of inconsistencies/bad logic in his arguments?
Feels like you're approaching two similar situations(Maria and michel) differently

I have described why I find Michael's claims to be more likely town bad, and why I find Maria's to be more likely scum bad a while ago in this post;
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 0#p8317120

Would you like to debate my thoughts, or are you just empty attacking?

Also gerry and karnos have been equal levels of useless so I'm assuming you want gerry lynched now bc you think gerry vs Maria is scum theatre?

I am not actually advocating either a Karnos or a Gerry lynch - my vote remains on Maria.
I did express happiness with a Gerry wagon and the push there, which dismantled the Transcend/Giga wagon - a slot I'm townreading.
So that seems pretty logical from my perspective.
Why do you think I want Gerry lynched? You even noted awareness I had said the opposite.

Why post this (with, as usual, no actual opinion being expressed)?

You're decentralising pressure and calling for like 5 people to get wagoned
On the surface it looks like you're doing stuff but all your pushes have been weak

I have consistently been calling for only one person to be lynched, Maria, except for a brief period where I had desire for Elyse to be lynched.
Me noting scumreads is different than me pushing for a lynch.
Maria even went so far as to complain that I'm ego tunneling here - I am pretty sure that if she believes that, and you believe that I am pushing 5 peopel equally, then at least one of you is utterly wrong.

I mildly agree with her value call

[Thor665]

I also don't like the ascetic claim, never seen the role used before, seems like a convenient claim for a scum player to fall back on to create doubt.

That's silly - you can't fake ascetic too well, I believe it's his role. You can debate the alignment, but I don't really see the scum advantage of an open fake claim.
That's like fake claiming Dayvig - it doesn't work for long.

[Thor665]

1- it could be mafia aligned ascetic, nothing about the role implies town.

2- if you are scum and expect to be investigated, what else can you do? claim ascetic first and at least you can put up a big fight against the cop, and require the cop to out himself if he does investigate you. compared to just getting lynched, i see that as a big win, even if the lie can be proven eventually.

1. Sure, I already said as much.
2. So...your scum defense is you expect to be investigated, so you claim ascetic so people are obligated to read you based off that, and do so because of fear of a theory Cop, while also now making multiple non-Cop roles capable of being a Cop when targeting you.

Yeah...maaaaaaybe. Kinda don't see it as a good play, doesn't preclude it happened, but I'm hardly sold.

In other news, your theory top scumread just pulled a hail Mary reverse on Maria and also weakened the Gerry wagon.
There are 19 hours left in the day.
Three wagons exist that you find scummy to some degree (Gerry, Maria, and Shadow).
You're derping on a single vote wagon going nowhere fast.

You should move your vote.

[Thor665]

BUT one thing DOES read pretty town to me: She seemed genuinely concerned about Thor replacing out and tried to make peace between everyone.

You're saying if she got a scum rolePM she *wouldn't* have done that?
Because these feels like a personality tell more than an alignment tell, just like Nero's white knight theory with IAI.

[Thor665]

Vote: Shadow

[Thor665]

how are we at L-2 already lol. I mean, shadow hasn't really dne much but tunnel me for no reason but. That was kinda fast, it's a bit scary.

I'll get into details later but pretty sure Elyse and Kraska are town.
Gerry and Karnos are strong scum leans.

Why not vote one of them?

[Thor665]

@thor: I spent a large part of yesterday trying to convince you that transcend/giga is scum, but didn't manage to convince you. Yet I still haven't got a clear idea where your townread on the slot is coming from. Could you try to convince me, please?

My town read is based off gut and lack of seeing anything scummy coming from the slot.

[Thor665]

Lynchbaity play was on purpose so that I could get some investigations in without getting killed.

Hint: if you're town - this is really terrible play.
Now you're being forced to claim because you "intentionally" played lynchbaity.

Unvote: Shadow
Vote: Karnos

[Thor665]

Don't believe you

vote:Blitzkrieg

Since you didn't really believe either claim - why push more on Blitz than going back to Shadow?

[Thor665]

JarJar lynch isn't happening today either, Shadow - I mean, feel free to list all the people you think are scumreading him.

My list is; Shadow.

[Thor665]

I can try, what do you think about what I did about JJ?

Your case on him is predicated on the concept that someone wouldn't immediately unvote a claim and then later doubt a claim.
I did that exact thing with you - so I don't find it shocking that another town would.
Ignoring that part of his play, I see no other evidence of scum intent, and I see a pretty decent argument for town intent - so it's 100% on how you interpret his reaction to you. I would say an immediate unvote and then analysis of the viability of a claim is perfectly within town normal reactions.

I still don't see a list.
You should move your vote.

When I look at Blitzkrieg, I see a player who focussed almost exclusively on Maria and Trans/Giga. That's not surprising, given how scummy that fakeclaim is, but it makes it difficult to know her thoughts on other players. That being said, I don't think she did anything super scummy. Yet JarJar, Giga, Nero all joined that wagon while giving virtually no reasoning, and shadow's willingness to hammer also comes after he didn't discuss blitz at all. This is a poor wagon.

I'm particularly disliking Nero's play here. Both with the Elyse wagon day 1, and the shadow and blitz wagons today, he seemed more interested in getting them to claim then in actually getting a lynch. It's in large part due to him that there are two powerroles out in the open now. That's not scumhunting, that's powerrole hunting, and more likely to come from scum then from town. Add the way he was smearing me day 1, and I would be happy to see him lynched.

I still prefer a Giga lynch though. Given how many players in this game were willing to give him a free pass for fakeclaiming, the mason claim is a relatively low risk way for him to potentially coast through the first couple of days, and build some towncred with maria in the process.

<Translated by Thor>
Blitz focusing so heavily on the Mason claims is scummy (please ignore that Micheal did the exact same thing)
But Blitz isn't scummy (then why explain how she's scummy?)

I really dislike Nero's play and will discuss how it is scummy for a paragraph.

That said, I want to lynch Giga off the mason logic still.
</translation>

Don't believe you

vote:Blitzkrieg

Since you didn't really believe either claim - why push more on Blitz than going back to Shadow?

You do know that I was the one that lead a wagon on him right?

I do know that - I would say you were a strong push on both wagons.
That said, I know which claim is less overall sexy as a town power and which is a more useful scum power presuming the claim is half honest.
I also know which of them looks more individually iffy with their play.
So I'm wondering why you choose to disbelieve Blitz's claim, but apparently find Shadow's claim perfectly fine?

[Thor665]

Thor, why do you like Blitz's claim better than Shadow's? Or am I misreading your posts

I'm not aware that I'm voting either of them.

So I'm wondering why you choose to disbelieve Blitz's claim, but apparently find Shadow's claim perfectly fine?

I don't?

So, since the claims don't matter, what makes Blitz scummier than Shadow?

For starters, everyone voting blitz right now is town
Wagon is stalling because scum are trying to derail

^ that was the best way to word it, the way i was going to say it risked this town's unity

Thor, can you weigh in on the Blitz lynch? That's pretty much what I'm waiting for.

I am currently uninterested in the Blitz wagon, so if you want a hammer you'll be forced to clue me into the brilliance.
About the only thing bugging me about that slot is if it is a Titus alt, which I think people were saying(?) Other than that, nothing.

[Thor665]

I wasn't talking about whoever you were voting – you seem to believe that Nero should find Shadow's claim more suspicious than Blitz's when I believe the opposite is true.

I am asking him why he made the value call he did - I am not actually applying an opinion of my own to the question.
I will note I'm having an issue getting an answer to the question.
Why you are giving *ME* heat over that I'll never know.

Blitz is in fact a Titus alt. If that makes you less inclined to hammer, then I think Karnos is a perfectly fine alternative.

Then move to Karnos?

["Case" of Giga

I note that your reasons for IaI dying included "unlynchable - that, in and of itself provides any scum a solid reason to kill IaI no matter who scum is, unless scum is IaI.
I also would note, that if I go to your case and replace Blitz's name with Gerry, or Thor, or Karnos, et al - it doesn't actually change the validity of the case.
Do you disagree with the above?
If so - could you replace the name with Karnos and explain how the case doesn't work?
If not - why are you acting like you have a case?

So why mention it? Simple. I wanted to see if I could figure out what the players on the wagon were seeing. In that context, it's important to note that she doesn't have many interactions that I can base my opinion on. It's also important to note that the interactions that are there are understandable from my point of view. Both of which I do in my post.

Do you think you have a good number of interactions?

giga is scum, nero is scum, shadow *might* be scum getting bused.
[snip]
There also seems to be some absurd push to lynch when we still have nearly 4 days left to work with.

I find both of these comments silly.

The fact that Blitz hasn't said who she protected yet makes me confident that she's scum.

I know for a fact that Titus (wrongly) believes hiding Doc targets is appropriate Doc play.
Does that change your read on the slot?

IAI doesn't make sense as a vig kill either.

Agreed.

@Titus - I've seen you play as a PR before wherein you didn't try to fly under the radar - why should I believe that was your gameplan now?

[Thor665]

@Nero - you still haven't explained why, when you started on Shadow, that you settled on Blitz after claims.
Neither claim particularly screams as a town claim to me, bot are very acceptable scum claims - so why pick the one you did?

[Thor665]

@Thor: something similar goes for you. If things don't change, you'll be forced to choose between Blitz and Giga, both of whom you seem unwilling to lynch. Why aren't you trying to convince others to join you?

Because Giga is the only one I straight townread, and he's pretty clearly not the lynch at this point.
I'm poking at the Blitz one, since I don't actually see the Blitz "issue" as it where, but I also don't particularly scream town on the slot - I'm not white knighting a soft lean.

the Shadow wagon fizzled out. I wasn't town reading Blitz. Why should I care which scum gets lynched?

The Shadow wagon only fizzled due to the claim, and since it happened first I would have thought it would have been your preferred wagon of the pair.

setup wise, we're going to have 3 or 4 prs so yes, we can't have a tracker, a vig, a vanilla cop, a doc and an asetic. I'm still not getting why Titus thinks there's a vig but if Giga flips town then Blitz and or Shadow is confirmed scum and vice versa.

Would you support a mass claim?

I don't think I've ever seen a person sit @ L-1 for such a long time w/o a hammer or a single unvote.

You clearly haven't played enough games then.

VOTE: Karnos

life is getting a bit out of control for me. if titus can't get lynched, then this is the alternative that will likely flip scum. if the vig, if there is one, does not shoot me tomorrow (they didn't shoot me when i requested to be shot yesterday so i doubt there is one), i'll respond to whatever points/discussion i need to tomorrow (in-game). don't dismiss what titus says if she is town, I agree with her speculation in that there are likely more prs, probably not a vig but I shouldn't be counted as a pr, and 4 prs is not unreasonable.

i'll formally announce a v/la once i have a better idea of how much time i'll have in the future, sorry.

Caught scum getting desperate.

Desperate about what? Being L-2 and unvoting an L-1 wagon?

I don't have a lot of time for the game though, certainly not enough to actually functionally counter argue Karnos at this stage.

Stop.
Mjolnirtime.

Unvote: Karnos
Vote: Titus

The utter lack of activity or reads kind of pushed me over the edge.
I actually think the Shadow claim looked worse and it's very strange to me that Nero lead the charge in the opposite direction for no sensible reason when finding them both scummy.
I also think we probably should have mass claimed today, but there really isn't enough time with current activity levels - if I die tonight I advocate that for tomorrow, natch

[Thor665]

Meh, I'm hardly as convinced as you.
Why do you think it's so bog obvious Titus is scum?
The exceedingly empty play only started when Nero started pressuring her on reads, not before.

[Thor665]

Why are people scumreading Nero Cain again?

Because they are silly or scum, duh.

inb4 michel/thor both claim pr and scum is giga and shadow :/

Would you like to massclaim today?
I think it's a good time.

Shadow should start the popcorn.

[Thor665]

SK would have shot Night 1 though.

[Thor665]

I kind of think Karnos, Elyse, and Shadow as my top scumpects.

[Thor665]

And i feel meta was valid
Anyone who played with town Titus before would have noticed she's off

I would agree with this.

[Thor665]

Though actually she was off for scum too - but moreso for town I feel.

[Thor665]

Anyone who self votes deserves lynching off that case alone.

I advocate mass claim today first, though.
No one has particularly said they disagree with that, so I'm choosing to accept silence as acceptance.
I want Shadow to start it off with a popcorn, but if anyone wants to claim and then popcorn away I'd be good with that too - I think Karnos makes a lot of sense to be that person.

[Thor665]

@Kraska - Why massclaim tomorrow and not today?

I think sooner makes more sense because we already have some living power that scum apparently don't give a fig about, and functionally if he is town the only way he becomes useful is with a massclaim - so if he's town, that helps us, and if he's scum it's meaningless because he's probably a true role claim alignment lie, or is a rolecop.

Also with the Vig/SK in play, that is kind of sexy and interesting, and I'd like to know which we have, and a massclaim will settle that as a Vig claims and an SK stays quiet, and I'd like to know sooner rather than later what we're dealing with as it changes the lylo/mylo realities.

The negatives we have is, potentially, a dead Vig - and that presumes both no SK and no protective, so seems an iffy risk at best, and frankly one I'm rather okay with.

Do you see any giant win in waiting a day for the claims?

@Giga - Scummiest should go first, but enough people have issues with Shadow that him going first makes sense to me, and if you think he's town then he'll theoretically still pick the 'scummiest' to claim next regardless - so I don't get the issue if he starts or if Karnos starts. Unless you think his scummiest read isn't Karnos.

[Thor665]

Thor, Shadow has already claimed unless you think he lied and he's going to make a new claim.

As the claimed PR he takes precedence if he wants to lead the popcorn.

Karnos refuses to claim so he's either a vt or scum.

I will agree those are two possibilities.

You claim, then Michel then me.

That might happen.

[Thor665]

Karnos should claim and popcorn, because otherwise he'll be lynched.
Of course he is self voting...
But I like to pretend that people can learn that's the worst play in the game.

[Thor665]

Voting self is bad play, but so is lynching someone without giving any reasons for it. I don't have time to catchup now.

The scum read exist on you because you're basically doing nothing and you're a good lynch to remove a slot that is difficult to read due to doing spit all - people are just wimpy about admitting that for some reason nowadays, but it's clearly the press on you.

Even look at your posting here;
"Didn't read arguments about mass claim"
"no opinion"
"wah-wah why suspect meeee?"
"No time"
Also didn't popcorn.

You're a terrible slot if town and are actively playing to help scum.
If you're scum your play makes sense.

I have no idea why you're being mopey about it or surprised.
I want to lynch you at this stage, because you're an anchor on the game.

Idk I feel like if the consensus is lynching karnos no matter what then there's no point to massclaiming today

Nah, we should massclaim.
It will help coordinate stuff at night and lock scum into claims.
Especially if we are lynching Karnos with a Vanilla cop claim.
I mean seriously now.
What are you suggesting in implying it's a not good idea?
You're being about as empty as Karnos, quite frankly - what reads do you even have? I couldn't describe them. Give me a couple of the ones you feel strongly about.

I don't see her guessing there's a vig unless there's a scum doc

I basically agree

i feel like the facts are pointing to shadow being town... why am i the only one that thinks this...?

The reason you are saying this and others are saying the opposite is that both sides are getting pretty loose with their definitions of "fact".
We can be fairly sure he has a gun (not a fact, but a reasonable deduction from evidence and claim)
His claimed role has a gun.
The Mafia roles have guns unless Doc or maybe something else I'm forgetting.

That actually doesn't point to him being either town or scum - there isn't enough info.
I will admit - presumed Mafia Doc + presumed Town Vig + Gunsmith + Presumed Town Vanilla Cop seems like kind of a giant finger to the Gunsmith role, as he is built in for at least 2 potential false results.
But that might then justify the extra investigative.
But that's a matter of opinion, not fact.

[Thor665]

Coordinate what exactly? Who the vig is going to shoot? I don't think that's a good idea. And do you think scum is going to claim a PR with this many out in the open already? All massclaim will do is expose the vig and everyone else will claim VT. Scum won't be locked into anything.

Coordinate the Vanilla Cop.
It's not like the theory Vig is utterly sunshine and dewdrops of brilliance, so I have zero issue with outing them now.
Also, yeah, if zero scum want to claim any PRs during the claim I'm *super* happy with that.
Considering your scum list is four long, I would presume you would be as well.
No?

Karnos claimed VT?

He did. Learn to reads?
I don't even get this - go iso him and use Ctrl+F - why are you asking something provable within the thread?

I will admit - presumed Mafia Doc + presumed Town Vig + Gunsmith + Presumed Town Vanilla Cop seems like kind of a giant finger to the Gunsmith role, as he is built in for at least 2 potential false results.

But that might then justify the extra investigative

.
But that's a matter of opinion, not fact.

Don't forget the tracker.

Refer to the bold.

Alone, I think Tracker+Gunsmith is a lot of investigative power for the town, so it makes sense to have 3 roles that "weaken" both of them. Arguably, if people believe that the Ascetic is town, the fact that you can't get results from them (well, me) doesn't matter in the long run, and the Vanilla Cop has investigative power on its own so it's not an absolutely terrible NU.

Sure.
So?
It could also be that either you or Shadow is lying, and the setup could still be fine.

I've been trying to think though... We've had a goon flip, and we're presuming that there's a doctor. What about an encryptor? This might seem like irrelevant set-up spec since knowing whether or not the scumteam has daytalk isn't super important for us, but remember that we know for sure that Kraska and Elyse are both vanilla (unless one of them are scum with shadow). So, if the scumteam is in fact a Goon/Encryptor/Doctor, then Kraska and Elyse are pretty close to confirmed town... There's always the possibility of a Encryptor Doctor but I feel that's too much power for one slot.

We should finish the massclaim, then thoughts like this could matter more.
Here, I'll help;

Claim: VT
Popcorn: Elyse

[Thor665]

Why would you be happy with scum claiming VT? That just means all massclaim did was out the vig.

You said "especially if we are lynching karnos with a vanilla cop claim" and I said "he claimed VT?" as refutation of your statement.

I also think it's scummy af for you to just start massclaim when there's opposition to it.

My comment makes perfect sense - we're lynching Karnos with a vainlla cop claim able to check VT claims.
And you expect a Vig to exist too.
So...

The opposition is you - and I think you're scum. So how is that scummy of me?
I'll wait for you to try to weasel on that one.

I don't really see a point in having players claim again and besides, I never agreed to a popcorn massclaim.

Find me ever agreeing to any other type of massclaim - it's the only good type.

vote:Thor

He's pretending to be a derp.

Yeah I'm fine with lynching Thor today too

Oh really?
Describe the case on me Elyse - because Nero's is hillarious and silly - but it's Nero.
Are you *sheeping* that value call?
Or is there actually a case in your mind? I'd love to hear it. I'm sure everyone would.

[Thor665]

i should get myself policy lynched in future games if it looks like i'll make it to mylo/lylo

You should stop playing the game if that's your only solution

[Thor665]

@thor: would you agree or disagree w my bg use there btw? I figured it was the mechanically correct play, what do you think?

There was nothing too terrible about it.
BG is a terrible town role though, and has very limited functional uses - yours was okay.