Newbie 2074 | Game Over

[Gamma Emerald]

um, hi?

[Gamma Emerald]

My avatar backs up my story.

My avatar quacks up my story.

KEKW

[Gamma Emerald]

Just going to get the backlash to the comment out the way:
UNVOTE: ClarkBar
VOTE: JamesTheNames

UNVOTE: StrangeMatter

VOTE: JamesTheNames

I'd like you to say more about the topic other than just showing "this is a really bad move, and this is the reason I'm going to vote him."

first good post of the game I think

@cowsloveSushirolls

when people act familiar with me when I'm not familiar with them, it makes me feel awkward, like I'm supposed to remember them but I don't
if you were to specify how you know me (or if that was just general excitement) I'd be chill

[Gamma Emerald]

Loving Salsa's entrance. Underwhelmed with Ythan's, so my vote is staying there. Val89 makes everyone accounted for.

If you are adding caramel to something, it's no longer vanilla, is it?

Since we're discussing semantics, Caramel ice cream is distinctly different than vanilla with caramel. I would assume vanilla with caramel refers to vanilla with caramel topping, although it is a bit ambiguous and could be mistaken for vanilla with a caramel swirl.

Leaven is also probably good for this

[Gamma Emerald]

@cowsloveSushirolls when people act familiar with me when I'm not familiar with them, it makes me feel awkward, like I'm supposed to remember them but I don't
if you were to specify how you know me (or if that was just general excitement) I'd be chil

i apologize

neither of us know eachother i just thought it'd be funny

ah
I do like your avatar + location combo though

[Gamma Emerald]

Why?

a player with that level of verbosity and apparent dedication to analysis can spare a few words to at least attempt to get some sort of conversation going on a useful game level

In this case, the amount of words read to me as a nervous cover for rolling scum

This feels sensible

[Gamma Emerald]

Val should keep being funny

he should be towny while he's being funny

^ this

[Gamma Emerald]

james is totally marinating me by making funny cow puns and soft defenses. not on my watch! i am not to be eaten
VOTE: JamesTheNames
if you guys want an awesome towncore already i suggest me-val-salsa-leaven-dann. condemn the scraps in no particular order, smile

why salsa? I'm guessing the towncore is at least semi-serious

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm from 09 and I don't read meta.

I only read meta when I care to, which is maybe like half the time
I don't do it essentially unprompted like ever

[Gamma Emerald]

If I'm catching up, is it preferably to multi-quote in response to multiple people are just 1 by 1 them?

Oki...
this is a really bad move, and this is the reason I'm going to vote him

Is there any reason for colored text? I'm assuming personal preference but wanted to be sure.

I'm a VT.

Would a more experience player let me know if there is something to take away from this at this point of Day 1?

I personally switch between single quotes and multiquoting depending on how much I'm tryharding on the catchup, with single quoting being more common

[Gamma Emerald]

you didn't do that to get the game going

why did you actually do it

are you sure about that

[Gamma Emerald]

Salsabi also came up for specific excuses why they wouldn't vote Val.

I didn't find any ping from that post, certainly not agreed with your reasoning, thus didn't vote. It's not an excuse, it's a read. And why do you think I would hop into voting after seeing your vote??

yeah, Dann's wording in that post comes off as rather uncharitable

[Gamma Emerald]

Roughly 13 of the last 30 posts relate to 96.

how many would you call useful?

[Gamma Emerald]

Why doesn't a troll simply repeat themselves?

I think you on the other hand are being intentionally dense.

I feel like Val89 is onto something on the subject of trolls repeating themselves. Have you ever seen the "sharks are smooth" troll?

[Gamma Emerald]

I won't comment further regarding that game as said game is ongoing.

Doing this just a little bit is not any less against the rules.

I did the same thing in my last game then got hammered from 0 votes to 5 votes within the span of about 4 hours before D1 ended due to time. I wanted to try it again.

This looks like not playing to your win condition which is another equally serious rule.

[Gamma Emerald]

I think StrangeMatter and Leaven are my top two scum reads.

Val and James can be very tentatively town for now

why those scumreads?
I feel like Ythan and Salsa are my leading scumspects rn

[Gamma Emerald]

The why were your 148 and 149 posted to the game thread and not directed to the mod in PM?

If your true intent was to correct a newbie, rather than g ain some in game advantage, a quiet word with Nahdia who could have had a PM discussion with James would have been a better way to deal with it than publicly call him out on it, no?

^ THIS

[Gamma Emerald]

Assuming I'm wrong about this, it'll look absolutely bad that I said that.

It's probably a town thing to say, but why would you cut the legs off of your own stance here?

[Gamma Emerald]

Scientifically speaking, the best fruit is the kiwi.

Spoiler: off topic memeage

[Gamma Emerald]

The why were your 148 and 149 posted to the game thread and not directed to the mod in PM?

If your true intent was to correct a newbie, rather than g ain some in game advantage, a quiet word with Nahdia who could have had a PM discussion with James would have been a better way to deal with it than publicly call him out on it, no?

As I said in this very page, three purpose of newbie games is in part to educate about the rules. I am not litigating the matter and don't think it's necessary to send a warning to the mod in a newbie game when I can just tell them they've made a mistake.

But here you are being willfully obtuse again.

Keep reading Gamma.

I disagree about whether asking the mod to give a warning via PM is called for
when the matter is public, it impacts public opinion on the players, and as a mod you want moderator actions and duties to have as little undue effect on the game as possible
Also, in my ruleset I'm pretty sure I have something stating that dragging private moderator messages into the thread is an offense, because I feel like most times people do that it messes up the game somehow

[Gamma Emerald]

dont scumread james for self voting and early claiming lol you guys are weird
if you read my tiny case you actually have reasons for why i didn't include them in towncore
reading back, responding to everybody

I take it you think James is scum but not for the reasons everyone else does?

[Gamma Emerald]

Though I do advocate early E-1s. Applying some lovely pressure early in a Day phase is much more efficient than in the middle of a Day phase.

this makes sense
if a PR claim is gonna happen as a response to a wagon it's probably better for it to happen earlier in the day so those voting can course correct

[Gamma Emerald]

@Dannflor can you please explain why you scumread both me and Leaven? I saw your post but you never really said why.

I myself am surprised by it because y'all were my first two TRs
but I also don't know whether I should ACTUALLY be surprised given recent experience with Dann

[Gamma Emerald]

In other words, no, it isn't blindlingly obvious to the degree you can safely assume anyone confused is either pretending or an absolute idiot?

I guess my prior post is me saying im an idiot.

Oh? maybe this is your point, since it's not obvious what is even be contested that it's not clear cut that confused parties are clearly playing dumb or are dumb. That is, they are legitimately having a tough time following the argument. I've even lost track of the greater context. I think we're talking about the James VT claim. Dann states explains it wasn't pro-town with explanation, and refutes that James explanation of trying to move things forwards isn't more valuable than what was given up for the town by his action. James doing it as a troll never seemed to be a point and Ythan clarified as such and then you are asking why the troll wouldn't repeat themselves. I just get lost here. So if James was trolling (not claimed) and if Ythan called him a troll (didn't happen) and if Ythan had an expectation of the troll repeating himself (which he stated he wouldn't because of the posts clarifying that there was no claim of trolling), why wouldn't a troll in that hypothetical situation take the action of repeating a prior explanation that was deemed not to be a troll?

TBH, none of this seems at all productive and if there is a read to be made, please clarify cause I'm simplifying it all to whether or not James is unintentionally sabotaging town as town because he feels it worth the sacrifice to move things along and/or to experiment in a newbie game, or if it is just scum making poor excuses for said sabotage.

I feel like this sort of attempt to find the lead (in the sense of a hint) that was lost track of is a town action generally

[Gamma Emerald]

In a newbie game I'd rather try to just point out the infraction if possible. Neither issue has come up again thus far afaicr.

149 was about another game entirely
why are you trying to point out rulebreaks within other games outside of discussing ongoing games? Honestly I didn't entirely get it until just now but I see why James felt he couldn't defend without breaking the ongoing games rule, because you were trying to smear him for actions within a game that isn't this one that I don't think you have a proper grasp of the events of. So maybe I'm reading too far into it but I think he specifically meant he couldn't defend against the accusations of rulebreaking.

[Gamma Emerald]

kinda sad that the towncore isnt getting much resistance, now i just feel like a weenie with thread consensus reads

was that the plan?

[Gamma Emerald]

- He's dumping this game again as VT for an even future scum game (worse than last time because of how last time went)

I don't think doing it as VT is as problematic as you seem to?
Town dying doesn't cost their side as much as scum dying does, due to the numbers of each side

[Gamma Emerald]

the tinfoil theory is that leaven crafted their scumcase in a way that if james were to respond to

any

part of it they get modkilled

this isn't related to the last post I made

idk whether you're right but I think it's towny you're on the lookout for that

[Gamma Emerald]

149 was about another game entirely
why are you trying to point out rulebreaks within other games outside of discussing ongoing games?

He said he did it in another game and got speedwagonned so he's going to try it again.

see the post above this
one VT dying is not enough to lose the game for town

[Gamma Emerald]

because you were trying to smear him for actions within a game that isn't this one

Did not once smear a single person in relation to this topic.

maybe not on purpose, but by posting that suggestion in public you essentially did so

[Gamma Emerald]

UNVOTE: Ythan Not comfortable with this at 3. Will be back this evening.

Not at E-1 but at E-2 feels a bit weird to unvote at.

Nope? We have 2 scums remember?

Do you think the scum would out themselves this early?

[Gamma Emerald]

149 was about another game entirely
why are you trying to point out rulebreaks within other games outside of discussing ongoing games?

He said he did it in another game and got speedwagonned so he's going to try it again.

see the post above this
one VT dying is not enough to lose the game for town

Make sure you know what counts as playing against your win condition to head off any future awkwardness.

If it were as you say I would've gotten told off for times I've self-hammered as VT in the past
but I haven't, so no, one VT doing something that gets themselves eliminated is not "playing against win condition"

[Gamma Emerald]

UNVOTE: Ythan Not comfortable with this at 3. Will be back this evening.

Not at E-1 but at E-2 feels a bit weird to unvote at.

Nope? We have 2 scums remember?

First of all the person putting it onto 4 would have to justify it. Then you hammer the hammerer D2 as a matter or policy.

this is my post but better

[Gamma Emerald]

I will not be retracting my claim, nor claiming a PR further down the game.

It sounds like you fail to understand that if you are town this narrows down scum's search for potential power roles.

You need to understand that this is wrong before you play real games, for real.

If House were in this game I'd expect him to call this out as proper play scolding, but as he isn't I'll do it instead
this feels like Ythan is more interested in lecturing people than actually sorting them

[Gamma Emerald]

if you guys care about setup talk, claiming VT early as scum is poor play in a double goon setup without elaborate planning for the other person to be the PR claimer. early claiming locks the scumteam from one of the major advantages of being in that world (being able to claim a PR uncontested)
i wouldn't base a read around this of course, but its worth keeping in mind

I might be way off the mark but in this type of setup there's very little scum can claim that'll help them live more than maybe 2 days? The primary reason scum have to claim PR in a setup like this is to draw out a claim from the real PR

[Gamma Emerald]

I don't think your conclusion is wrong, but I think you overestimate how much of an advantage being able to claim PR is, when all the possible setups are listed in the OP

[Gamma Emerald]

And, in my opinion, outside of a better scum target, anyone who defends objectively anti town behavior done with basically the defense of "I know this is bad for town and last time I did it it was bad for town but i did it anyway because I'm experimenting" or because "as vt I'm more valuable to town on day 3 than a town PR" is at least equally if not more sus. Give me a better target, but without one, I'm going to go hard at antitown behavior and doing it doubly so to make it known that I will go hard against anyone who harms town for either scummy or personal gain over pro-town wincon reasons. We gave james an out by admitting this was objectively antitown and his defense was proff he has already done this before with an anti-town outcome. So he knew full well this strat doesnt help town and he did it anyway. If your conclusion is that anyone policing antitown behavior is now sus, town is already lost. Are we now in bizarro world where taking a hard stance against antitown behavior is now anti-town?

it took me a while to run through my thoughts on this post but I'm thinking both Leaven and Val have decent principles, but are kinda butting heads on policy matters
and while I don't think taking a stance against anti-town behaviors is suspicious, when it seems to have ulterior motivation, it does
That's what I'm pushing Ythan for, and what I presume CLSR was calling out Leaven for

on another note, 428 is probably town for the fact that it's saying "touche" to a post going

against

him

[Gamma Emerald]

If House were in this game I'd expect him to call this out as proper play scolding, but as he isn't I'll do it instead
this feels like Ythan is more interested in lecturing people than actually sorting them

Are you referring to Dr House MD, the character from the popular American Medical Drama series, as played by Hugh Laurie, where it's never lupus except for that one time it was lupus, or is there just another user here that goes by "House".

There is a user on this site who goes by House
And his avatar is House M.D., played by Hugh Laurie

[Gamma Emerald]

townies do outrageously pro-scum things all the time

scum try to look town

Who would you say is trying to look town rn?

[Gamma Emerald]

Val, do you accept that james took an objectively anti-town line by claiming vt? If so, then it's that simple anti-town = pro-scum. If not, then that's where we don't see eye to eye.

Wait, your joining date tells me you

should know

that anti-town behaviour is not always scum behaviour

UNVOTE: StrangeMatter

VOTE: Leaven

Does that mean he should push anti-town behavior? No.

[Gamma Emerald]

Shouldn’t *

[Gamma Emerald]

Val, do you accept that james took an objectively anti-town line by claiming vt? If so, then it's that simple anti-town = pro-scum. If not, then that's where we don't see eye to eye.

Wait, your joining date tells me you

should know

that anti-town behaviour is not always scum behaviour

UNVOTE: StrangeMatter

VOTE: Leaven

Join date aside he did qualify for this game as a newbie.

That being said I think it would be lovely if you elaborated on that vote a little more because I can see where you're coming from but also I can see where else you might be coming from if you know what I mean. I expect there's a at least a little more that could be said.

They has more experience than me according to the joining date, at least I assume that. So they should know anti-town doesn’t necessarily scum indicative + they want to policy elimination

James

at D1 while the 2 scums (I think

James

is town) are setting up for a D1 miselimination. We can policy eliminate anyone later imo.

Policy eliminations are definitely NOT better saved for later

[Gamma Emerald]

Btw, if

Leaven

flips red,

StrangeMatter

most likely their partner I think.

Well, you’d be wrong about only this, if he does flip red.

Also, do you have Town reads?

Dan

,

James

,

Val

.

Is it just me or does it feel remarkably like Salsa is trying to pocket Dann? Her reads mirror his a bit

too

much imo.

[Gamma Emerald]

Policy to me should not take priority over your actual reads though.

Leaven has indicated he isn’t really doing that though?

[Gamma Emerald]

^^ Would you consider her to be a bit scummy if her answer to that is "lol, that's obvious" then refused to answer it when you told her it wasn't?

So now you're trying to convince me I'm scum? Performative. Disingenuous. Scum.

[Gamma Emerald]

So if Salsa, Leaven, and James all flip town this game. What are the takeaways.

- With Salsa, scum can freely do anti-town things and even be town-bucketed for it. Furthermore, if people vote that scummy behavior, they will actually be scum-bucketed for it.
- With myself, scum will know they can't easily get away with anti-town things.

What advantage does town get (now or in the future) from laying a red carpet down for scum to freely behave against the interest of town? I'm happy to create an environment that discourages anti-town behavior.

If James was randomly 25% Scum, 25% PR, 50% VT, now I have him at 30% Scum, 5% PR, 65% VT. Still overwhelmingly likely to be VT, but as I've said previously, outside of a better option (which we likely will have in 5 days), my vote lands there.

Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnngggggggg

If you have time, check my meta, will see how townie I am all the time

This is scummy.

Why?
I kinda think it is too, but I don’t think it’s gonna be the same logic as yours.

[Gamma Emerald]

If you have time, check my meta, will see how townie I am all the time

i have time
name a few games?

This is gonna be fun...

[Gamma Emerald]

As far as I'm concerned, if your sole argument is "Look. Meta." as to why you're town, you aren't town.

Impressive. It’s not what my logic is, but it definitely blows mine out of the water.
I was thinking the sheer amount of time Salsa was calling stuff “boring” was scummy
Which has a merit to it I think, but the last time I saw someone do the “I’m town because this is my town game” thing they were scum, and someone actually whipped out this exact same point against them

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm still trying to get my head around what her CCing your VT claim means for her alignment

...I would think that’s an obvious troll by Salsa?

[Gamma Emerald]

Policy to me should not take priority over your actual reads though.

Leaven has indicated he isn’t really doing that though?

True, but I also noted he said that he'd vote someone else if. The only problem is the last couple posts to me don't come off as someone trying to scum hunt so far, which I still find a little odd, although this might just be their playstyle.

I will admit I haven’t seen him actually try to look elsewhere for scum but I feel like he’s kinda tunneled into the one point of discussion. I think a James townflip would be a solid thing to snap him out of it, but I don’t want to eliminate James solely for that so I think I’ll do the next-best thing.

@Leaven

: who would you think is scum if we eliminate James today and he flips town?

[Gamma Emerald]

So if Salsa, Leaven, and James all flip town this game. What are the takeaways.

- With Salsa, scum can freely do anti-town things and even be town-bucketed for it. Furthermore, if people vote that scummy behavior, they will actually be scum-bucketed for it.
- With myself, scum will know they can't easily get away with anti-town things.

What advantage does town get (now or in the future) from laying a red carpet down for scum to freely behave against the interest of town? I'm happy to create an environment that discourages anti-town behavior.

If James was randomly 25% Scum, 25% PR, 50% VT, now I have him at 30% Scum, 5% PR, 65% VT. Still overwhelmingly likely to be VT, but as I've said previously, outside of a better option (which we likely will have in 5 days), my vote lands there.

Boooooooooooooooooooooooooooriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiinnnnnngggggggg

If you have time, check my meta, will see how townie I am all the time

Until I replaced into 2064, you were basically a consensus scum in that game. So this is incorrect.
Not to mention, if you were town you'd be able to give reasoning outside of meta. You are trying to play into the "too scum to be scum" category.
Posts: 80, 83, 111, 208, 223, 286, 306. All ping me that way.
I also don't buy the whole unvoting at E-2 nonsense.

What I meant was I openwolfing as town, so if anyone thinks anti-town = pro-scum and eliminate me for that, it’s not necessarily my fault. You need to find agenda behind the behaviour, scum will never act scummy.

[Gamma Emerald]

Btw, if

Leaven

flips red,

StrangeMatter

most likely their partner I think.

Well, you’d be wrong about only this, if he does flip red.

Also, do you have Town reads?

Dan

,

James

,

Val

.

Can I hear more about your read on Dann, Salsa?

Yeah, I played with them before + how they're playing here seems townie to me + I can mindmeld with them on some matter, so they're in townblock for now.

Translation: I know how charismatic Dann can be, I know he’s town, and I’m trying to pocket him.

[Gamma Emerald]

What I meant was I openwolfing as town, so if anyone thinks anti-town = pro-scum and eliminate me for that, it’s not necessarily my fault. You need to find agenda behind the behaviour, scum will never act scummy.

townies do outrageously pro-scum things all the time

scum try to look town

^This

i think that both of these seem to contradict eachother. which do you believe more? or am i looking at this wrong

they’re actually kinda the same thought
But they’re both at least somewhat off-base, so the fact you thought they were contradicting was probably sensible, your gut instinct told you something was wrong with them.

[Gamma Emerald]

i think that both of these seem to contradict eachother. which do you believe more? or am i looking at this wrong

hmmmm i think i am actually. ill point out what i see

scum will never act scummy, when combined with the statement "scum try to look town" when town act scummy means that one of the two are wrong

Okay now this makes more sense
This is actually a very good opportunity to explain a common mafia term: “wine in front of me”, shortened to “WIFOM” or “wine”. What it means is an argument that cycles around endlessly, because of and endless chain of if/then points. If scummy things get scumread, then scum don’t want to do them. But if town do scummy things all the time, then scum would want to do them to look town.
The problem with this scenario is that you can spend a long time basically getting nowhere. There is pretty much always a reason for scum to do something, because the minute someone says “why would scum do this?”, the reason has been created FOR them. So rather than trying to utilize vague principles that get you nowhere, it’s better to try and think about what makes sense in certain circumstances.

I could probably write more on the subject but I think the points of greatest import have been hit.

[Gamma Emerald]

Read-list:

Town:

James

Val

Dann

Null:

CLSR

Clark

Ythan

Scum:

SM

Leaven

Let’s note despite what I’d call positive interactions with CLSR and Ythan, they’re both still null
These don’t feel like legitimate reads

[Gamma Emerald]

Hello. I'll be catching up when I wake up. cowsloveSushirolls is scum. I'll explain why when I wake up.

James, do you have any plans to come back to this?

Yep I'm just being very careful with interactions with him, as to not break any rules.

huh
I think CLSR is probably town rn so that case should be, erm,

interesting

[Gamma Emerald]

Salsabi also came up for specific excuses why they wouldn't vote Val.

I didn't find any ping from that post, certainly not agreed with your reasoning, thus didn't vote. It's not an excuse, it's a read. And why do you think I would hop into voting after seeing your vote??

yeah, Dann's wording in that post comes off as rather uncharitable

Given how Dann interacted with Salsa here I get the feeling this was a catalyst for Salsa trying to pocket Dann
inb4...

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Salsabil Faria

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm pretty sure the whole point of newbie games and SEs is to try to keep players from making it into other games still believing stuff like that.

@396

“You do get that trolls definitely do repeat themselves right?”
“Blah blah the point of the newbie queue is blah blah”

THIS IS STUPID
You are so wrapped up in being holier-than-thou that you COMPLETELY MISSED the point I was making in 396!

[Gamma Emerald]

The above is true
however, to put it simply, I felt like Salsa was acting performative, as well as trying to mirror Dann's reads too hard
Salsa also felt nothing like how she played when I hydra'd with her

[Gamma Emerald]

I still think Ythan is pretty suspicious
Besides that I’d have to look over some of my more nullish reads to see if there’s anything I missed

[Gamma Emerald]

[quote="In [url=https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12919272]post 533[/url], StrangeMatter"]Also, I wasn’t here to even be able to stop them from hammering themselves, which just makes me angry to think about.

1. The two others in this wagon, (Ythan, Gamma) are scum, and pushed it to waste time over day 1. More leaning towards scum being Ythan here.

Or

2. Everyone who is on this is Town and scum is outside this wagon entirely and let it happen instead, passing day 1 and killing the person I read as Town.[/quote]
This confuses me the more I look at it
Why do I have to be scum with Ythan? This feels like a false dichotomy

[Gamma Emerald]

Shit I think accidentally hit “disable bbcode” while trying to fix an autocorrect

@MOD: can you please fix the above post by me?

[Gamma Emerald]

Why does me rounding up the wagon result in me being a scumread? I’ll admit that yes I did try to improve my slot’s standing, because as I read I felt like it was apparent my predecessor had not really been received that well. I also respect that you probably are concerned about me given how fervently I defended you Day 1.

[Gamma Emerald]

Dann, give me a reason why your SRs/pushes have been what to me feel like easy targets?
I’ve pretty much eliminated everyone but you and Ythan from my suspect pool, so there’s two reasons this benefits you, helping me see how you can be town, as well as potentially getting me to reconsider my TRs.
SM, Leaven, and CLSR I have as town just in general, and Val89 I have as town because if he’s scum with Ythan that IMO requires some weird play by the both of them.

[Gamma Emerald]

the case for salsa provided by gamma was a lot more vague than i wanted, then he drops a whole bunch of good reasons to vote salsa post-elim despite wanting to focus on improving his slot's credibility

Everything except my meta point I’m pretty sure I brought up D1?

[Gamma Emerald]

You're an easy target?

You might have seen me as one
But the James and SM votes, and arguably the Val vote, all kinda were on people who’d done something peculiar which you could latch on to

[Gamma Emerald]

Well, now that I think about it, James and Val definitely were, and SM was the debatable one

[Gamma Emerald]

there's a surprising lack of "i would've stopped the wagon if i were here" which is kinda ???

This also confuses me
Why was it expected that I would have stopped the wagon? I guess the fact Ythan hopped on could have given me pause, but I don’t think it’s worth crying over spilt town elims when I couldn’t really do much about it. In actuality I think the on-meta thing for scum!me to do would have been to come in putting on an act about how Ythan is untrustworthy and his vote should have ground that wagon to a halt or something. But take that with a grain of salt I guess.

[Gamma Emerald]

Spoiler: responding to Gamma Emerald's questions directed towards me (long)

Why doesn't a troll simply repeat themselves?

I think you on the other hand are being intentionally dense.

I feel like Val89 is onto something on the subject of trolls repeating themselves. Have you ever seen the

"sharks are smooth" troll?

that was a very fun read

while ythan still hasnt confirmed or denied it i will continue to assume that he meant that trolls wouldn't have the demeanor that James does, and whether they repeat themselves or not doesn't matter

dont scumread james for self voting and early claiming lol you guys are weird
if you read my tiny case you actually have reasons for why i didn't include them in towncore
reading back, responding to everybody

I take it you think James is scum but not for the reasons everyone else does?

yes, i found a lot of their early posting to be awkward when i made post 77, and then i continued to read them as mafia when they wouldn't stop talking about their own actions despite being limited by rules. i don't think i'll agree with my read after I look at the game fresh again, though.

kinda sad that the towncore isnt getting much resistance, now i just feel like a weenie with thread consensus reads

was that the plan?

the plan was to get people's attention on something game-related that wasn't james and their um, antics
everyone not included in the towncore had done nothing that stood out as towny

if you guys care about setup talk, claiming VT early as scum is poor play in a double goon setup without elaborate planning for the other person to be the PR claimer. early claiming locks the scumteam from one of the major advantages of being in that world (being able to claim a PR uncontested)
i wouldn't base a read around this of course, but its worth keeping in mind

I might be way off the mark but in this type of setup there's very little scum can claim that'll help them live more than maybe 2 days? The primary reason scum have to claim PR in a setup like this is to draw out a claim from the real PR

I don't think your conclusion is wrong, but I think you overestimate how much of an advantage being able to claim PR is, when all the possible setups are listed in the OP

i based that post off a small NewD3 fakeclaiming guide i was given when playing this setup offsite, and also a game I was keeping up on loosely, where the final scum claimed tracker in a world where JK was the only PR. huge gambit, since it wasn't to contest anybody. they rode that claim for two days until final 3, which they won. whether you think it's because town weren't paranoid about which setup world it was or not, you gotta admit that it was a pretty sweet move. some level 0 meta: james was in there as mafia, their behavior is nearly nothing like this game
https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=87026 (Newbie 2070 - Airplanes)

james is totally marinating me by making funny cow puns and soft defenses. not on my watch! i am not to be eaten
VOTE: JamesTheNames
if you guys want an awesome towncore already i suggest me-val-salsa-leaven-dann. condemn the scraps in no particular order, smile

why salsa? I'm guessing the towncore is at least semi-serious

https://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.p ... #p12914104 has that explained

i think that both of these seem to contradict eachother. which do you believe more? or am i looking at this wrong

hmmmm i think i am actually. ill point out what i see

scum will never act scummy, when combined with the statement "scum try to look town" when town act scummy means that one of the two are wrong

Okay now this makes more sense
This is actually a very good opportunity to explain a common mafia term: “wine in front of me”, shortened to “WIFOM” or “wine”. What it means is an argument that cycles around endlessly, because of and endless chain of if/then points. If scummy things get scumread, then scum don’t want to do them. But if town do scummy things all the time, then scum would want to do them to look town.
The problem with this scenario is that you can spend a long time basically getting nowhere. There is pretty much always a reason for scum to do something, because the minute someone says “why would scum do this?”, the reason has been created FOR them. So rather than trying to utilize vague principles that get you nowhere, it’s better to try and think about what makes sense in certain circumstances.

I could probably write more on the subject but I think the points of greatest import have been hit.

nice, thanks for explaining that one to me.

I'm pretty sure the whole point of newbie games and SEs is to try to keep players from making it into other games still believing stuff like that.

@396

“You do get that trolls definitely do repeat themselves right?”
“Blah blah the point of the newbie queue is blah blah”

THIS IS STUPID
You are so wrapped up in being holier-than-thou that you COMPLETELY MISSED the point I was making in 396!

no, 396 was your post about ythan pointing out the potential rulebreaks james has done, which ythan's response fits with

i laid kinda low today, that's my bad. will pick up posting tomorrow

Was re-reading the EoD1 stuff to double check the timeframe (which yeah I was either asleep or not active on site for) and noticed this existed
I’ll try to respond to stuff in this later, but if

@CLSR

wants to give specific tips on what he wants a response to that would be appreciated

[Gamma Emerald]

Also re: 555 I’m guessing your concern is that no one seems to be actually taking a moment and re-evaluating? I guess that’s reasonable but people who weren’t on board with the Salsa wagon (Val is probably the foremost name in this group) probably don’t have much urge to do so

[Gamma Emerald]

Okay I’ve read it all
And yeah I guess I mistook what the post number was when making 464

[Gamma Emerald]

I will not be retracting my claim, nor claiming a PR further down the game.

It sounds like you fail to understand that if you are town this narrows down scum's search for potential power roles.

You need to understand that this is wrong before you play real games, for real.

If House were in this game I'd expect him to call this out as proper play scolding, but as he isn't I'll do it instead
this feels like Ythan is more interested in lecturing people than actually sorting them

James is doing a bunch of dumb shit in a newbie game I'm an se in so yeah there's a bit of that. Is it all I'm posting? No it isn't.

actually yes

I may not have 400+ d1 of this game like certain players but nah ur full of shit sorry.

You actually are among like top 3 posters rn
Probably means nothing but still, kinda underselling your posting here

[Gamma Emerald]

You hammered yourself. So yeah you are a clown awesome.

There are corner cases where it's okay to self hammer as scum maybe especially the goon but if you're looking for advice in a newbie game I'd say just don't.

This feels like faking uninformed perspective
First he goes for the clown line, then tries to double-down, this time acting like Salsa is definitely flipping scum

[Gamma Emerald]

I’m half-inclined to vote Ythan since my main holding issue was letting CLSR check in but I feel like by what CLSR just mentioned I should give it more time

[Gamma Emerald]

I kinda think it reinforces the idea that Ythan is scum, as that was James’ other main push that wasn’t Salsa iirc
But he was also universally townread, so it may be a low info kill in that sense.
Basically, objectively it probably means nothing but I feel like it points to Ythan

[Gamma Emerald]

And by respond I mean actually answer the question please.

Do you have nothing to say to

my

response?

[Gamma Emerald]

And by respond I mean actually answer the question please.

Do you have nothing to say to

my

response?

I do, I was waiting on Ythan's answer to the question, but reconsidering his initial response, he probably won't. As for your answer, I kind of want you to explain a little more when you're saying when you mean they didn't play the same when you did a hydra with them. Also, when you mentioned that you thought Salsa was mirroring Dannflor's reads, I'm not sure I entirely agree with that. I noted that Dannflor has reads that are Leaven + SM, and GE + SE, but Salsa had a read that was vote Leaven, and if he is scum I'm his partner. Even then, I read those reads and see them as different reasons that only are mirrored by only the people.

Dann's SR on me came after the mirroring posts I called out, and I don't think Salsa actually gave reasons why her reads were how they were
As for Salsa not playing like when we hydra'ed, she seemed way more serious in the hydra game, while here she was fluffing up a storm.

[Gamma Emerald]

Not really
It just felt night and day, and Salsa’s play was scummy in general too

[Gamma Emerald]

I don’t exactly get whether there’s a point to that.

[Gamma Emerald]

This town is already working uphill against two self votes, including a self hammer.

Both of them are dead tho

[Gamma Emerald]

Also those groupings don’t feel natural

[Gamma Emerald]

Also those groupings don’t feel natural

sorry, why not?

I don’t get why you and Ythan are put together
I can kinda get why me and Val are matched (pushing Ythan) but that doesn’t really mirror well to the you/Ythan pair since you haven’t pushed me that hard I think and Ythan hasn’t even voted me yet

[Gamma Emerald]

I have no idea what Leaven is trying to say rn and it kinda bothers me

[Gamma Emerald]

What about this game state makes me scum? That seems to be what you’re communicating and I have no damn clue how you’re getting that conclusion from the data you’re referencing in your recent posts.

[Gamma Emerald]

Wait what’s going on between Val and me now?

[Gamma Emerald]

I meant moreso what is happening right now that makes you think I’m not scum with Val

[Gamma Emerald]

the competing wagons should really be like SM and leaven right now

not this GE/Ythan crap

I've kinda been thinking over my Leaven read because I feel like he's kinda doing a repeat performance of yesterday on some level where his posts seem thought out but on closer inspection there's not much actual meat to them. He's put out like 5 or so blocks of text that feel like casing me but really just seem to be trying to motivate groupthink on my slot.

@StrangeMatter

what do you think, since you're the one I had what I feel for me was the most engaging discussion on Leaven with D1?

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Leaven
I still think SM is probably town so if we're moving to SM/Leaven as dueling wagons I'd prefer leaven
PEdit: apparently y'all think I was voting Leaven already, k

[Gamma Emerald]

Man, I'm not super hot on Leaven as scum.

Why do you think SM is town, Gamma?

Eh there’s some

vibes

mostly
But I also think they’ve been kinda solvy in a way that feels genuine, even though I feel like their overall presence is kinda low

[Gamma Emerald]

SM was on the wagon for one thing, so they could have unvoted

[Gamma Emerald]

VOTE: Gamma Emerald

[Gamma Emerald]

gg folks
Sorry about pushing you like that Salsa, you just stuck out like a sore thumb and I didn’t want to bus my roleblocker buddy too early

[Gamma Emerald]

Also, I think I might be a little more comprehending of why Ythan was pushing James on the supposed infractions

[Gamma Emerald]

There was a point during D2 when I was like “yo the ties between me and SM are actually pretty solid so they p much always go down with me”
One thing I’m surprised never came up was attempting to look at potential mafia pushing SM/Leaven with the idea that one was gonna claim a guilty and become conftown via role claim

[Gamma Emerald]

also this game kinda taught me that it's not as hard as I think to get away with dropping legitimate pushes on partners

[Gamma Emerald]

typically on a red check you try to generate associatives with the confirmed scum

[Gamma Emerald]

I don't know what that would entail.

Also, did Dann protect anyone last night?

There’s two ways to do it I think, press people to declare stances on your target or declare you have a guilty but not who it’s on and ask people to guess

[Gamma Emerald]

He was pushing Ythan and was also basically conftown so could be explained as “low info”

[Gamma Emerald]

bruh what
I literally just called out your play for what it looked like, with some spin on it to make the case more appealing
if that's a problem then you should probably just dodge me in games from now on because it's probably gonna happen again. There was nothing personal about it, and you got all mad before I even started making allusions to your play in the other game so that's clearly not what fueled your issues here.

[Gamma Emerald]

I'm am practically blind to most sarcasm, please understand, so if you're joking I very much didn't get it

[Gamma Emerald]

I’m just glad I managed to reverse the curse from Situation Room

[Gamma Emerald]

I probably might have taken that same gamble myself
With someone you’re more familiar with you know what buttons to press to get them to agree with you