Open 836: Pick Your Poison (Game Over)

[DArby]

Hey there. This is my first replaced game, so give me some time to read through everything.

[DArby]

Who the hell is jingle.

I hate this is making me laugh as much as it is.

[DArby]

Halfway through. A50 and Enchant are town so far.

[DArby]

I kinda wanna vote somewhere that isn't VP but I also fucking hate him trying to act like I owe him anything
It's that age-old thing of "you respect me

as an authority

and I'll respect you

as a person

" which I do not support or abide in any form

Gamma is on the fence but I townread her for this.

[DArby]

VOTE: iconeum
I'm gonna throw my old townblock out the window and make a new one with

blackjack and hookers

cakez, enchant, f&g, and penguin at the center

what's up

Lmao why does my slot act like a genie and only appears when summoned

[DArby]

My brain turned off reading the last ten pages. I’m going to sit in a corner for a bit and think.

[DArby]

Enchant are town so far.

can you talk about this one?
because I agree but want to hear how you got there

He’s a meme but not derailing the game. Extracting what he’s saying seriously does follow logical steps.

[DArby]

Halfway through. A50 and Enchant are town so far.

How so?

[DArby]

I'm curious as to why you think they are town halfway in - especially A50.

Same reason as Enchant, honestly.

[DArby]

My opinion fwiw (if it's worth anything at all): The Ico/D'Arby slot is TOWN. No way BOTH TR me here if this was a scum slot. I should be LHF (at least theoretically) and they didn't get to "talk to each other" so that the former passes the latter "the strategy" they were following.

Take it with a grain of slat, a twist of lemon, and in one shot.

counterpoint: scum pt

I don’t believe a player with low activity count who had to be replaced d1 and had no real contribution would put in the effort to write a strategy in the scum pt. I also don’t believe I’d follow the advice of someone who’s already in the hot seat intentionally.

[DArby]

I just don't believe D'Arby comes in and the first thing he does is to copy that strategy. It doesn't make sense for a sub-in scum who is on the chop.

i'm not sure i see why that is supposed to be such an unlikely strategy?

Regardless of alignment that is objectively a stupid strategy for me to copy Ico’s reads.

Not to mention I forgot who I was subbing for until the second half of reading through because he was barely active. Of the top of my head I could actually tell you what his reads were.

[DArby]

I also get really bored from meta really quickly. Making a meta alliance argument against me isn’t indicative of my play style.

[DArby]

Forgive me if I don't necessarily believe that coming from the player who replaced the slot.

I get that, but I’m not making a play argument, I’m making a logistical one.

I'm curious as to why you think they are town halfway in - especially A50.

Same reason as Enchant, honestly.

Could you be more specific?

I can try. A50 and Enchant stand out to me as players that play the game less “seriously” then others but I think would still try to play their roles. Skimming through their arguments feels like natural reactions to the game. A50 specifically played similar to this in Squid Game with me and came out as town iirc.

[DArby]

meta alliance argument

what

You’d get nowhere comparing my meta to the person I replaced. Our A50 read matching is coincidence.

[DArby]

Making the argument for or against me regarding A50 is weird. No one is coming after him nor is anyone strongly tr’ing him. I’m just making my gut reads.

[DArby]

I kinda wanna vote somewhere that isn't VP but I also fucking hate him trying to act like I owe him anything
It's that age-old thing of "you respect me

as an authority

and I'll respect you

as a person

" which I do not support or abide in any form

I think I quoted this but I’ll quote this again. This post gives me my strongest TR this game with Gamma.

[DArby]

My opinion fwiw (if it's worth anything at all): The Ico/D'Arby slot is TOWN. No way BOTH TR me here if this was a scum slot. I should be LHF (at least theoretically) and they didn't get to "talk to each other" so that the former passes the latter "the strategy" they were following.

Take it with a grain of slat, a twist of lemon, and in one shot.

Eh not sure i agree with this logic

~ skittwr

What does that mean?

[DArby]

Well, obviously my opinion "isn't worth anything at all" then

What is this in reference to?

[DArby]

@D'Arby: Check my 1160 (between the brackets)

I don't think your opinion doesn't matter, but I personally don't put too much stock in one read out of two matching.

[DArby]

I kinda wanna vote somewhere that isn't VP but I also fucking hate him trying to act like I owe him anything
It's that age-old thing of "you respect me

as an authority

and I'll respect you

as a person

" which I do not support or abide in any form

I think I quoted this but I’ll quote this again. This post gives me my strongest TR this game with Gamma.

can you please explain this town-read ?

If scum!Gamma wanted to make a wagon and cause a mislim she wouldn't show her bias against VP. Rather, he made a case against VP for personal reasons that have a natural buildup. This isn't something that would be directly town-indicative. This feels like genuine emotion that could discredit Gamma down the line, which I don't think he'd want as scum. Given my limited experience, I'm willing to give this behavior a townread.

[DArby]

Darby do you have a read on dats?

pedit that was pooky btw

~ skitter

Not yet, no.

[DArby]

how the fuck am i the same rank as n_m, dunn, ico slot, and sleepless?

lack of anything that feels distinctly towny from you post read purge
also, I'd probably most like to lim Dunn, N_M, or potentially SA
Datisi and DArby at least seem active enough to warrant a pass for today

Active isn’t the right word
Should have said “engaged”

I was about to say…

[DArby]

i don't know why, but darby's 1188 and 1190 give me a scummy vibe, in a sorta cognitive load way? what i mean is, the answers to those questions seem relatively easy to figure out if you read the post that skitter is literally quoting there. and the fact that he's *still* asking for clarification there strikes me as if he didn't quite get it because way too many other things are on his mind (i.e. he be informed)

someone let me know if i am getting too biased here, but those two just pinged me as Wrong

To answer Penguin’s question earlier, I do have a read on you now: town. You’re absolutely tunneling me but I think it comes more from not knowing how I play vs actively taking my questions in bad faith.

[DArby]

FWIW, DArby's absence today isn't doing him any favors. I'm probably willing to compromise on that yeet if we need to in the next day or two.

VOTE: sircakez

You really made me speak too soon.

[DArby]

FWIW, DArby's absence today isn't doing him any favors. I'm probably willing to compromise on that yeet if we need to in the next day or two.

I probably should go on V/LA soon. I’m moving cities next month + finishing this semester.

[DArby]

VOTE: sircakez

I haven't seen you say anything remotely redeemable about DArby....so why are you wanting to change trajectory entirely?

to add to the meme: i think darby and cakez have scum!equity together

now seriously, you have correctly observed that i do not townread darby. because i don't. but while darby's slot has been getting *plenty* of attention today, and i reckon drumming up that wagon again wouldn't be too difficult, cakez has gotten none and i'm not sure how i feel about it. so i wanna try to sort him a bit first before deciding where i want to move on for the day

But shouldn’t that be a d2+ thing? This logic seems weird.

[DArby]

anything that i post towards darby is not gonna be very useful because they're not here and haven't read the game so what do i even push him on

Didn't he say he was caught up now?

I skimmed.

[DArby]

But shouldn’t that be a d2+ thing? This logic seems weird.

do you just try to yeet the first scumread you get and don't bother trying to solve anyone else?

That’s not what I’m saying. I’m saying that with there already being a sizable wagon on me, and already a solid enough defense against me + who I replaced. It seems silly you’re trying to back track

now

. That vote isn’t going to create a wagon.

[DArby]

Im assuming Im getting limmed today, which is absolutely fine. My flip should at least give give associative reads and I post one final reads list so work can be done d2. I am the logical conclusion today. I don’t see why you want to deviate to put pressure so close to the end of the day with no traction.

[DArby]

Then I’m lossed. What is your point?

[DArby]

*lost. Jeez these typos.

[DArby]

It exists and yet doesn’t answer my question. Im not asking why are you doing it. I’m asking what do you expect to get out of this for the town if you don’t expect traction?

[DArby]

I don’t see how a vote without traction will get a better read, but that could just be a lack of experience on my part.

[DArby]

To answer Penguin’s question earlier, I do have a read on you now: town. You’re absolutely tunneling me but I think it comes more from not knowing how I play vs actively taking my questions in bad faith.

What about me?

~ skitter

I townread you mainly because I feel your dissonance between yourselves is genuine.

[DArby]

Im assuming Im getting limmed today, which is absolutely fine. My flip should at least give give associative reads and I post one final reads list so work can be done d2. I am the logical conclusion today. I don’t see why you want to deviate to put pressure so close to the end of the day with no traction.

In the event you do flip town who should we be looking at?

~ skitter

It’s too soon for me to actively been in the game and produce a strong sr.

[DArby]

To answer Penguin’s question earlier, I do have a read on you now: town. You’re absolutely tunneling me but I think it comes more from not knowing how I play vs actively taking my questions in bad faith.

What about me?

~ skitter

I townread you mainly because I feel your dissonance between yourselves is genuine.

How does that make them town? Do you think you a scum hydra would fake dissonance in thread to appear more townie?

They could sure. But this dissonance didn't come out of the gate. It was brought up by other people mainly for them to confirm who was feeling what. I'd imagine a hydra that would want to appear more natural would do so more obviously.

[DArby]

DArby is cunning enough to fake that as scum.

I think I've seen Darby in a game recently (although I don't remember which one) and thinking his play was good. I also don't remember what alignment he was. But gth I wouldn't put it past him. I'll update this after I'm caught up and can look to figure out which game that was.

To date I have no finished games as scum.

[DArby]

it feels like the purpose of darby's posting is to avoid death and not to actually find bad guys

also the reason skitter/me have different reads on VP baltar is because I'm religiously allergic to reading wall-posts and she loves complete sentences.

Yes but no. I don't want to respond to over 50 pages of things that I wasn't apart of. I've been a huge topic of discussion but have responded to things that don't involve me.

[DArby]

The cum reads specifically. They are the three players who got the biggest wagons

This made me laugh harder than I'd like to admit.

[DArby]

F&G, VP, Datsi are all town from the last few posts I've seen.

Bingle and Gamma are null, where posts feels less solve focus and more expaniding on things already said.

[DArby]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: DArby

Feel like this is going to be the most informative yeet and I'm bored with this day.

What would you get if I flipped either alignment?

[DArby]

This is giving me a50 reads flashbacks. Just because you’re LHF doesn’t mean scum will always go for you.

[DArby]

DArby is cunning enough to fake that as scum.

I think I've seen Darby in a game recently (although I don't remember which one) and thinking his play was good. I also don't remember what alignment he was. But gth I wouldn't put it past him. I'll update this after I'm caught up and can look to figure out which game that was.

To date I have no finished games as scum.

Found it. You were killed by my event (also read: the one everyone hated) in squid game. Weird, I go the impression you were more experienced from your D1 play there.

People make that assumption because of how I type. Common misconception.

[DArby]

I know Dunn is the other wagon of interest today, but other than the “boring ISO” post, what’s the reason behind it?

[DArby]

Then if it’s meta, I can’t argue for or against. For now I’ll trust it.

VOTE: Dunn

[DArby]

I don’t think 3 votes is a speed run, but I’m fine to at least hear the replacement out. I’d be a hypocrite otherwise.

[DArby]

There’s not that much time left. We need to start consolidating a wagon.

[DArby]

What happened to Dunn?

[DArby]

I have a town read on both Datisi and VP. I want to apply pressure. Having pressure as a replacement should be a good reaction test.

I still would want to hear them out.

[DArby]

I have a town read on both Datisi and VP. I want to apply pressure. Having pressure as a replacement should be a good reaction test.

I still would want to hear them out.

Assuming PP and Enchant both stay in, we have roughly 24 hours between Dunn replace and EoD. Do you think that's actually enough time to get a reaction, read into said reaction, and decide if it's worth eliminating there? If the player who replaces in isn't caught up when they do so, do you think they'll respond to a lot of pressure on themselves? If they are won't they realize they're under pressure? Suffice to say, 'pressuring Dunnslot' (or really NM slot) isn't going to do much. We need to start consolidating now so we're not scrambling for a lim last minute.

Might I interest you in this shiny Gamma wagon that has the two amazing qualities of not being on you and being a possible elimination?

If Pooky’s argument against how flimsy Gamma’s meta arguments are hold up, I’ll probably switch.

If we have a freeze, I’d imagine the replacement will have some time to make an argument alloted by the mod. I don’t expect a read of the game but to see how they respond to the pressure.

[DArby]

Actually, the more I think about it the dumber that sounds [my last paragraph].

VOTE: Gamma

[DArby]

Ok so you did your research, do you actually have an example of a time when scum!me tries to kill town!you on D1?

aside from Mtn Dew? I'm assuming this is pooky speaking
I think you pushed me to some degree in Gensokyo maybe? I know out of the rest of the scumteam Kilga was pushing me and KA was whiteknighting me

what the hell happened in mtn dew that derailed the initially elim order for y'all

like I don't believe Gamma found some random post I made in a scum pt and thinks its a smoking gun and then decided to "drill" me with it while not talking about it and now dramatically reveals it.

Like that makes no sense to me

if town him actually believes this is some sort of smoking gun I think he just posts it and attacks.

Instead he feels like he is trying to calculate if he can get away with this or make us back down by just threatening and now when he sees sentiment in thread is doubtful, he figures he has nothing to lose so he just lets it rip.

This one, VP?

[DArby]

Or do you mean the one that’s being referenced?

[DArby]

You probably mean the second.

I avoid meta reading as much as I can help it. I’d rather gauge the reaction of those who actually did it.

It’s really unfun for me to read games Im not apart of. :/

[DArby]

If Pooky’s argument

Key word if.

I changed votes because I realized my reason for voting Dunn is stupid.

[DArby]

If Pooky’s argument

Key word if.

I changed votes because I realized my reason for voting Dunn is stupid.

Why is it stupid?

Also, when and how will you know IF pooky's points are valid?

With the replacement, it would only be 1-2 days of pressure for the replacement to say anything. I don't realistically expect a rando to read all of these pages, come to a logical conclusion, engage with pushback, AND town coming to a consensus in that time. It sounds better on paper if we had more time for the replacement.

Gamma and you would be my main indicator. I'd imagine Gamma would push back, and F&G would push back to that. They will either bring up the relevant pieces of the meta to this game and agree on some form of facts (to which I could make a conclusion then) and/or you as an informed third party would correct any wrong statements. It's not fool proof but I don't like doing extra work when it can be avoided.

[DArby]

If Pooky’s argument

Key word if.

I changed votes because I realized my reason for voting Dunn is stupid.

Why is it stupid?

Also, when and how will you know IF pooky's points are valid?

With the replacement, it would only be 1-2 days of pressure for the replacement to say anything. I don't realistically expect a rando to read all of these pages, come to a logical conclusion, engage with pushback, AND town coming to a consensus in that time. It sounds better on paper if we had more time for the replacement.

Gamma and you would be my main indicator. I'd imagine Gamma would push back, and F&G would push back to that. They will either bring up the relevant pieces of the meta to this game and agree on some form of facts (to which I could make a conclusion then) and/or you as an informed third party would correct any wrong statements. It's not fool proof but I don't like doing extra work when it can be avoided.

What you’re expecting to happen is already happening tho, where’s your take on that???

Correct. Present tense happening. It’s not over and new info to me is still being shared.

I’m not fully following “where’s my take”? Both Dunn and your argument both rely on meta. I don’t care to do meta work myself unless I have to. Your take isn’t helping your case and I decided I don’t like the logic I used anymore.

I have simply just changed my mind.

[DArby]

What I quoted to VP particularly doesn’t paint you in the best light for me.

[DArby]

Really feels like you’re skating around taking a definite stance here.

Yes. Because I don’t want to. As I said multiple times before the main arguments of the other wagons are based off of meta. Why would I want to take a strong position on something I’m open im not interested in?

[DArby]

Like, you keep saying things look good or bad, that’s not really a clear opinion on how you’re taking things.

That’s typically how I play d1 and I’d think is NAI. I don’t make bigger moves til after a few flips. Especially in a game where I’ve played with 3 people here max as a replacement.

[DArby]

I felt like ramping up the intensity after seeing Pooky slating me as the D1 miselim in another game
Atp tho I don’t feel as energized as I did when I initially saw that
I do think that I’d like the elim to be in F&G/DArby tho

I get me but F&G sounds like a personal push. They've made good arguments against your points while you're doubling down. My vote is now more serious.

[DArby]

Both gamma and darby have called the other a tr earlier and now both are voting (or are wiling to vote) the other

~ skitter

I have done the unforgivable: I have changed my opinion when presented with new information.

Lol, I jest. Is there anything else you find off?

[DArby]

What exactly was the new information again that made you scumnread Gamma? When you changed your vote, it seemed more about getting off of Dunn than on Gamma.

I’m not doing a full recap but Gamma is getting too heated for a position she cannot defend and one where everything she’s posted in arguing has been easily shot down.

[DArby]

Both gamma and darby have called the other a tr earlier and now both are voting (or are wiling to vote) the other

~ skitter

I have done the unforgivable: I have changed my opinion when presented with new information.

Lol, I jest. Is there anything else you find off?

i mean do you want to walk me through how you went from 'top tr' to 'voting him'

~ skitter

I guess I am doing a full recap anyway. Give me a bit of time to get out my laptop.

[DArby]

Detective D'Arby's Delicious Deduction

This will be a real quick one, but in 1565, we see the collection of the basis of F/G's argument that spiraled into my actual read. However, Gamma's response in 1567 is dismissive.

Well up until now my basis in this game has felt very weak so I didn’t feel like trying to press based on that was very honest.

He then goes forward in 1568 and 1569 to ignore the argument presented entirely to discredit F/G. Regardless of how you read the situation, an argument was made with meta that was presented and yet it was not acknowledged or refuted. That reads as a bad-faith argument. I actually disagree that F/G was being too rough with Gamma as 1575 is a legit question. Especially when Gamma uses intimidating words such as "crock of shit" in 1577. This alone does not make me sr Gamma. Looking at his VP vote, it would otherwise come across as being a typical emotional player, which is consistent in her gameplay so far.

1608 F/G breaks down the differences between game energy between Gamma now and then. Gamma than responds with 1639 saying the reason she's been cold to F/G was Pooky had Gamma as the d1 miselim in hidden temple. Which, in it's own right puts context to the situation, but at the same time, the odds that a) this is the same alignment set up and b) the exact same play is really small. I'd think Gamma as an expirence player would know that. It also stikes me odd that Gamma is making this argument

now

after baiting posts like 1599 and 1635. Why would Gamma bread crumb this revelation AFTER scumreading them in 1595? Realistically, only Pooky would potentially get what Gamma is referring to. I bring this up because I feel that this was an attempt at an intimidation tactic. 1654 claims that this was because Gamma didn't know how F/G would treat him, yet the actual argument that happened instead didn't do anything to help Gamma, and I don't see how putting relevant information as to why you are being uncooperative is helpful to the town.

And what really gets me is that Gamma is holding onto this while asking

what the hell happened in mtn dew that derailed the initially elim order for y'all

Pooky responds with 1694 pointing out that if Gamma has the research skills to remeber the plan that Pooky made, why do they not have that same energy in understanding why it didn't apparently happen. 1701 Gamma then ignores all of that and says F/G is trying to make her sound crazy. I'd imagine a good faith town would at least acknowledge 1694. Pooky then doubles down with the next logical conclusion of 1708 showing how Gamma has no evidence.

Like, 1717 is so wild to read. I don't like it when people use harsh words with me either, but I don't think F/G did? This was an incredibly emotional argument on Gamma's side where he scumread someone who made valid points that he couldn't counter. Gamma's reactions to the meta being presented doesn't seem pro-town and I don't trust it.

[DArby]

Halfway through. A50 and Enchant are town so far.

I kinda wanna vote somewhere that isn't VP but I also fucking hate him trying to act like I owe him anything
It's that age-old thing of "you respect me

as an authority

and I'll respect you

as a person

" which I do not support or abide in any form

Gamma is on the fence but I townread her for this.

Like to me, why would you go "A50 and Enchant are town, I'm pretty certain" then in your NEXT post "I'm on the fence but will TR Gamma for this" like, it feels like you're trying to convince others that Gamma is town, yes you just replaced in at this point, but if you flipped scum, you know your team, so it feels like, knowing Gamma is your partner, you're like "yeah look, see, town!" Cause if you actually TRed A50 and Enchant, why not quote towny stuff from them??

I’m sorry, I’m not fully following your logic earlier. Are you saying that scum is trying to distance themselves by pushing, but I started doing that by town reading my partner?

And to answer your last question, I’m not sure how far you read at this point, but I explained my reads. It was more they passed the ~vibe check~ and got early reads at that point from that.

[DArby]

Cop should check me, I know my reads are right. so clear andante= I yell at yall to vote in my 3/4

Being town =/= being right.

[DArby]

i once heard a friend of mine say "if someone's posts are making my eyes glaze over and i can't read them, that person is probably scum"

and that is the exact vibe i get from 1827

it's like, what is the point of this? it's titled as "deduction", but most of it feels like just... recounting events that happened in the thread? i see there's *some* original thoughts there, but this whole post just screams "look at me i am doing things".

oh wait, i skipped over 1822. that makes it a *bit* better because at least it wasn't uncalled for. it still has the lamist vibe. anyone got meta on darby to know if he's usually like that?

In my defense I didn’t want to write that. I had to circle explain myself several times atp.

[DArby]

skitt, can i get link/tldr on that, i am a bit checked out

also what you think of cakez

Ico consistently pushed dunn when both dunn/gamma were getting pressure, and didnt really talk about gamma at all

Darby repped in and immediately declared gamma his strongest townread

And is now voting him, and the progression in between is rather meh imo

~ skitter

Untrue.

I kinda wanna vote somewhere that isn't VP but I also fucking hate him trying to act like I owe him anything
It's that age-old thing of "you respect me

as an authority

and I'll respect you

as a person

" which I do not support or abide in any form

Gamma is on the fence but I townread her for this.

A50 and Enchant were higher.

[DArby]

I count e-2 but hold on let me answer a few things.

[DArby]

I kinda wanna vote somewhere that isn't VP but I also fucking hate him trying to act like I owe him anything
It's that age-old thing of "you respect me

as an authority

and I'll respect you

as a person

" which I do not support or abide in any form

I think I quoted this but I’ll quote this again. This post gives me my strongest TR this game with Gamma.

@darby

Darby, who do you think is scum and/or town right now and why? Like a brief sentence for why is good, and I'm not expecting you to have a read on everyone

Datisi, Bingle, and F/G are towny because of how their progression has changed given the circumstances and have been pro town.

VP is town on a conditional Gamma flipping red.

I feel your play is so brash it can’t come from scum.

I keep my Enchant and A50 reads.

Gamma is still scum.

Null reads from Cakez and Dwlee but lurker scum could be in here?

I dunno who I forgot but those are my gut reads without any proof.

[DArby]

I kinda wanna vote somewhere that isn't VP but I also fucking hate him trying to act like I owe him anything
It's that age-old thing of "you respect me

as an authority

and I'll respect you

as a person

" which I do not support or abide in any form

I think I quoted this but I’ll quote this again. This post gives me my strongest TR this game with Gamma.

@darby

Oh lol. Given the push between the two of you I later scum read gamma for that given the context. It was quickly followed by the encounter, so the change happened quick enough I didn’t think about it.

[DArby]

I don’t want to claim just yet tho.

[DArby]

Oop. Well that’s hammer hammer lol.

I just know this is going to be used against me in meta.

[DArby]

Although tbf i think this is more of a town loss than a scum win
Pedit ya mod notes were entertaining :p

Winning by default is my favorite kind. Gg everyone!

[DArby]

Same here Bings! Hope to see you around sometime!