White Flag - TM2020

[Dannflor]

im sorry what

[Auro]

This game is mountainous with EXTRA reason to bus. Your argument is inherently flawed by the fact that scum have even more incentive to bus not less

Not on D1, and not if your bus has very high chances of resulting in a lynch.

[Espeonage]

Auro, if you are town. At what point do you stop and think "Lots of people are scum reading me for the way I am playing and the biggest argument against it I have is it is how I play. Maybe I need to rethink how I am approaching the game"?

[Espeonage]

Yes on Day 1.

Thinking that the white flag mechanic is going to stop hyper bussing is very dangerous wifom.

[Dannflor]

ur mom is very dangerous wifom

[KittyMo]

Yeah and since Dunn implied he isn't good at reading Auro I don't get why he cares so much about trying to bring in Auro meta.

Meta works in two ways.

1. Auro does X as scum and never as town, he must be scum (or) Auro does X as town and not as scum, he must be town
2. X is an invalid reason to scumread Auro because I've noticed it in his towngames

You don't need to be good at reading Auro to make the second point.

Please don't cut the most important part of my quote to mansplain how meta works again. I'm well aware of your opinion on it, and frankly it does not help me read you.

[Espeonage]

Like look at this way.

If I were scum in this game, given the relative weakness of the playerlist. I would pocket someone strong. I would then hyper Lynch a scum buddy, then I would try and argue that other people are scum and posture that scum are just fkn dumb because both me and pocketed player have BOTH been left alive. Then when push comes to shove I would accuse my pocketed person of doing exactly what I have been doing and try and win the game.

The pure unadulterated and pristine town crew scum gets from bussing day 1 is way way too good to pass up on.

[Auro]

Auro, if you are town. At what point do you stop and think "Lots of people are scum reading me for the way I am playing and the biggest argument against it I have is it is how I play. Maybe I need to rethink how I am approaching the game"?

Only a few are, who can't even say how it's anti-town.
There's scum in those people.
Onus is on the people to realize it's a bad attack.

Yes on Day 1.

Thinking that the white flag mechanic is going to stop hyper bussing is very dangerous wifom.

Cool, then let NSG give reads and bus her teammates?

[Espeonage]

Really?

Like actually really?

[Auro]

I'm well aware of your opinion on it, and frankly it does not help me read you.

Don't care, it's not an "opinion" it's basic reasoning, and this isn't an attempt to help you read me, I'm just showing that your arguments (in this case, saying Dunn can't bring in Auro meta without knowing how to read Auro) are invalid.

[Auro]

Really?

Like actually really?

You think scum!NSG bussing a buddy and causing a scum lynch is bad for the game?

[KittyMo]

Other musings before I leave:

- Would like to see Dannflor explain the Dunnstral town core read at some point

- I have been joking with my team that Dannflor hands out townreads like candy. However I have determined I actually townlean him, because I think that I see a throughline in his posts of trying varying tactics to resolve that that appear genuine (expressing that he feels the game state is wrong and seeming to try to figure out why, various attempts at re-weighing reads, trying out pushes). Also I'm I guess bored of everyone saying he's too good at scum to deserve to be townread or whatever with minimal elaboration

- My strongest townread is still Cephrir and it's not close

- I have some thoughts dropped by my teammates I will probably share but I'll hide them in a wall Esp won't read

- I like both the replacements so far which is leading me to think on what I may be missing with others

- I like Hopkirk less from the Cheeky interactions but I don't want to kill him or anything

- My instincts tell me that the current game state is fairly likely to lead to a Dongempire lynch which I feel pretty ambivalent about, but he's probably who I'd most like to hear from now. I'm struggling to follow the thought process on some of his votes (the Auro vote and discussion that wasn't a "push", the Ceph vote was a "push" but not bc he scumread Ceph)

[Dannflor]

- Would like to see Dannflor explain the Dunnstral town core read at some point

I'm in the middle of doing that right now actually!

[Auro]

I like both the replacements so far

Can you summarize thoughts on BBMolla?

[Dannflor]

It's part of a larger wall reads post though, would you like me to just cut it out and post it now so you can read it before you leave?

[Dannflor]

Also I'm curious why specifically you have Cephrir as such strong town

[Cephrir]

FWIW, I don't at all agree that the playerlist in this game is relatively weak. All of them are decently mixed imo, and we might have the highest floor.

Also, this game notably is not a miserable slog, which team mafia games often are.

[CheekyTeeky]

Please don't cut the most important part of my quote to mansplain how meta works again.

[Dannflor]

I have some thoughts dropped by my teammates I will probably share but I'll hide them in a wall Esp won't read

[Cephrir]

Maybe it's your style, but scummy nonetheless.

I just remembered this post and think it's funny in light of more recent Auro posts.

[Auro]

Maybe it's your style, but scummy nonetheless.

I just remembered this post and think it's funny in light of more recent Auro posts.

I know, I was waiting for someone to point it out

Unwillingness to engage is easily a scummy playstyle, being "argumentative" isn't.

[Dannflor]

arguing in a mafia game is a scum tell tbh

[Auro]

You caught me

[CheekyTeeky]

Dann you've promised two town cases now on hop and Dunn. Should I stop holding my breath?

[Dunnstral]

The nsg thing is a totally separate inquiry.

Ok, I just don't often ask people im scumreading why they are scumreading other people.

I wasn't so certain that I wasn't willing to listen to anything they had to say.

I didn't like how he came in and gave inconclusive reads then townread everyone, it looks scummy to me, and so i thought Cephrir's vote there made sense.

Fair, how is Dann hitting you now?

Not certain but from skimming new stuff I don't think I'm interested in voting there today, at least.

That was me, by the way

What was you? The scum trying to whisper into my ear?

Lady 9

I've just seen play from scum recently like that where they legit said nothing and somehow a couple of newbies sniffed her out and we lynched there, that was in the infamous newbie 1942. Again Im a sucker for recency bias.

OK, but Joan does it as both alignments

T: Ceph, Hop

TL: Kitty, Espy, Gob

N: Dunn, NSG, Joan

SL: Auro, Wgeurt

S: Dann, Dong

I feel like there have been a lot of changes to these reads since i caught up and interacted with different people.

I feel like im more here now.

Why does everybody have me as null? Are people afraid to try to read me or do they not bother to read what I'm saying?

He started with RQS, and while I do acknowledge that it's something people may consider doing to some degree before the game thread opens, all of my previous personal experiences with RQS are (1) the person who does it is town and (2) they are inevitably pushed on by people because it's a safe starting point to look at motivations behind, moreso than it being an easy thing to look like you're doing something. So weak read, but this game fits the second half of the pattern at least and I think doing RQS is more town than not because it is ballsier than it looks.

I wasn't pushing him because of RQS though, and for a while I was the only one pushing him. Also, I'm town. So... I don't buy into any of this

Bruh, be real with me, did someone coach you to do/say this? You prodged Friday (promising stuff Saturday), Sunday (promising stuff Tuesday), and then again on Tuesday. So what I get from that and this explanation is that you had stuff you thought was worth addressing over the weekend as of Friday, then on Sunday went "ehhh I'm going to take this opportunity to lurk to watch activity levels" instead, and then got actually busy. What would an activity level change have indicated to you? I've never really been in a position where I cared about watching activity levels in relation to myself - because I know my alignment already, so I don't know what there is TO watch from that? Like if there's a defined narrative involving other people and no one's challenging it, that's a game state worth examining and can be telling. If you wanted to stop posting to let pressure on you taper from everyone's boredom, I'd rather you just admitted it. Otherwise: please clarify.

Yeah I think it's bogus

I don't really see the OMGUS bit as contradictory. Like, I wouldn't say he OMGUSed Auro/Dann really for pushing him regarding RQS, and he implied his interactions with Ceph were giving him flashbacks to a situation where gobble was TvS (odd thing there now for me is, as mentioned earlier, progression on Ceph).

My problem was that he acknowledged that he gets scumread day 1 by people who don't understand him, then turned around and basically individually proclaimed that everyone who was scumreading him was suspicious, and it didn't make sense to me.

Like...I think you can think you have good reads/insticts without relating to those kinds of players/playstyles. I take it as more that he feels like he should be valued more than he is, more than he thinks he's better than other people. Not quite sure I am looking at this from the same angle you were, but I think these viewpoints can coexist.

OK. I think he was being arrogant which was what he was condemning other people for.

I kinda vibe with Dannflor's "hyperactive" take in that gobble's initial approach to the thread initially feels ...frenetic? brazen? in a way that I don't think unconfident scum hoping to just set up his teammates for the win tends to come off. I wish this was a stronger read???

If he thinks highly of himself then I disagree with this.

Auros not my scumread, i think that defending himself isnt indicative of scumminess but rather misplaced focus. Espeonage is my highest scumread right now and former would have to come second though its not half as strong as esp.

I misread 531, I guess. Or rather, I only read the bottom half

Dongempire backing off Cephrir seemed like he realized he went down the wrong path trying to get people to scumread Cephrir. I also feel like Hopkirk is reaching with some of his analysis (particular when it comes to me), but he is very funny so I will townread him to keep him around longer.

I want to vote NSG because she is playing into her scum meta that I saw in Alternative 9P. I find it odd that no one else is commenting on that. It seemed like it was common knowledge across the site since other payers in that game also made that observation.

VOTE: Dongempire

I'm going to only say this once because everyone seems to be getting the wrong idea. I'm not scumreading cephrir. I made 322 and the former vote on him was because i viewed his playstyle as pretty shitty and the way he engaged with gobble and auro the same. At that time i didnt know what to make of his posts but i didnt like them, but the reason for my push on him was that his playstyle was both lazy and didnt allow for more discussion. If you're going to push on me please dont all use the same shitty excuse, especially when its wrong.

Well all you did was naked vote so don't get mad at people for assuming things, especially when you're voting not because you scumread someone but because you don't like what they're doing

Cheeky are you gonna quick hammer me like last time

Starting to feel like the posts that made me unvote him earlier came about as a result of coaching from his team - I don't like this post, it's like he stopped solving and is just here now, hoping people don't vote him.

VOTE: Formerfish

I disagree

I am also wondering on what basis Dunnstral is trying to read Auro himself, since a lot of his content around Auro is pointing out things Auro is being attacked for that appear to be in Auro's town range. Maybe I should like Auro more for living in the thread.

I'm not going to be able to get a read on him while he's defending himself. I think he's correct in his defense. People are saying it's caught for the wrong reasons, I think he'd do it as town. I didn't say he was town, I said the reasons he were being scumread were bad and his defense was correct and what he would say as town (probably as scum too though, but not only as scum).

I have a grasp on why you like Hopkirk, but I don't on why you like Auro. (Fun fact, his name shows up in your iso 38 times).

I get that you've posted more since this but my name appears in yours almost as much as Auro's does in his right now. And people are talking about lynching Auro.

I've met Mathblade and Titus through meetups, and I literally went to school with DEB (and boonskiies and espressojet and loserdudeog etc.) so according to discord I was the one on the replacement list they were most familiar with

I heard this is the most boring game in Team Mafia let's fucking make it a party homies

This is a very NAI response, but I like it, because I would have assumed they would have picked you to play as scum over the other choices.

i apologize if this is frustrating, but my team unanimously agrees that it's best for me to spend my time elsewhere. if i don't get nightkilled this game will be my first priority tomorrow.

NSG, I have to say that this rings hollow. You've done nothing today and seemingly don't plan to do anything. Why would you be the night kill? The sheer force of reputation on your team is not enough to offset the complete lack of effort you've put into this game and the threat other strong town players in this game might pose.

More importantly, a scum lynch day 1 in white flag would be absolutely devastating to the scum. Yet, a scum lynch becomes much much less likely today without your vote and voice. This 20 page game is not long enough to warrant not at least skimming and giving what thoughts/directives you can; in addition, this game

should

be JUST as important to your team as any of the others; not only because day 1 is so important in this setup, but because all the games in TM are weighted equally. Your win here counts just as much for your team as winning any of the other games. I don't believe waiting till D2 to post increases our win chance in this game. So, I really don't see why it would be best for you to not spend time on this game.

Surely RC has considered this, surely you have, and the rest of your team. I didn't have a problem with you claiming IRL matters were getting in the way, but this reads as a lie. Are you just bored with this game? Is your team as a whole disinterested? Why?

What exactly are you thinking?

True, all 4 games are worth the same. Maybe the large theme is worth more. In any case, she should probably be playing in the game she got put in if she's playing in all the others (which is what she's claiming, I think)

On a side note Dunn is obv town according to pops.

Cool

Kitty’s wallpost only style isn’t one I think I could ever comfortably townread based on what I currently look for to try and find scum. It feels too uninteractive while being in a cheeful tone that makes me want to townread it followed by me asking myself why.

As a preface I'll say I don't auto-townread people for wallposting. Right now I'm townreading both of Formerfish/Kitty for their wall posts, and I feel more confident about those reads than my other reads. They both seem genuine. IDK how they would play it as scum but I think it would show. Kittymo is strangely interested in me, though. Also, I wouldn't describe her posts as 'cheerful tone'. I think her avatar is tricking you into reading it like that.

Well I assume I didn't really joke at all in that scumgame and I've joked in all of my towngames recently and OH GOD IS THAT THE MODS WITH A HAMMER OH PLEASE NO I'M JUST TRYING TO BE LESS SERIOUS AND HAVE MORE FUN WHAT ARE YOU DOING WITH THAT MODKILL AGH WHY CAN'T I FEEL MY LEGS WHY'S IT GETTING SO COLD

More seriously and with less joking around, haven't we played several games together where I was town too?

Where exactly am I not obvtown? :( :good:

:cry: :cry: :cry:

I find it difficult to townread you when you're putting on an act

Oh the Auro wagon has half shifted so keeping it up is less pressure than I thought. Sure.

VOTE: Northside

Hop 'Hopimilius' Hopkirk

I don't like the way you are justifying switching your vote off of Auro here, or that you're announcing that you're voting people for pressure

I'm probably like

Auro, Hop, Dunn
Cheeky, Kitty, Cephrir?
-other people-
Formerfish
Dongempire, nsg

Now those are some spicy reads, in that they're completely different from everybody elses. Why are Auro and Hop top tier, and why is Formerfish below other people?

FF I found it kind of weird that I clearly townread him - as Cheeky said - but he attacked a minor misinterpretation in a way that really sounded like he thought he was talking to scum-Hop.

I think this is something town is more likely to say.

i'm all for elitism but cliquishness in mafia is pretty annoying and over-reliance on meta is a great flaw for many otherwise good players

Is this responding to something in particular or are you just ranting

641 + 643

Cephrir can I get a reads list from you?

i was thinking of trying to make one that's why i was looking at post 0
here's something quick

Dannflor- townish
BBmolla- townish
Formerfish- townish
CheekyTeeky- scummish purely because my team didn't like your predecessor
Auro- scum, but not as hard locked as i'd like to be
Dunnstral- idk
Kittymo- town
Cephrir- very handsome
northsidegal- scum, i guess
Hopkirk- townish because my team said so
Dongempire- idk, i find this person to be low charisma which makes them a challenging read
gobbledygook- townish
Espeonage- idk

I think you had me as town earlier but now it's 'idk' - what happened?

I am against Lynching NSG on principle of lurkers being terrible day 1 lynches.

Fair viewpoint.

bc I was town and feeling happy about my ability to win the game with relative ease I probably wouldn't have told my team what my role was either.

I think you're being strangely arrogant here, I don't think you've done all that much in this game.

Yes, her refusal to play/prioritize D1.

It sucks and she's doing us a disservice but I don't think that's a good reason to be wagoning her.

Scum or not, she's basically banking on her paragon reputation to prod dodge to delay her slot contributing anything substantive until d2, and pretending that this is pro town.

True but same thing as above

If you are town, you're likely dead tonight anyway. Who else are they gonna shoot, me?

If you think this, why would we lynch her day 1? It doesn't make sense.

That people who are defending Auro are going yeah ok its anti town, but it's also what he does so he's town.

That doesn't answer the above. Are other people trying to protect Auro's scum game for him? What you said in 682 seemed to imply people talking about their own scum games, not other people's.

Dunn 346's counter point to Kitty's claim that Auro is posturing as caught for the wrong reasons was to say yeah but he does this all the time. Which was one a found as soon as I started looking.

You think I care about 'protecting Auro's scum meta' by sacrificing this game or whatever? What are you on about? You're not making any sense right now.

Yeah and since Dunn implied he isn't good at reading Auro

Stop saying this please

I'm not

bad

at reading him, which is what you're making it seem like I'd say I'm pretty neutral

Yeah and since Dunn implied he isn't good at reading Auro I don't get why he cares so much about trying to bring in Auro meta.

Meta works in two ways.

1. Auro does X as scum and never as town, he must be scum (or) Auro does X as town and not as scum, he must be town
2. X is an invalid reason to scumread Auro because I've noticed it in his towngames

You don't need to be good at reading Auro to make the second point.

@Kittymo

This is the kind of post that I read as a product of Auro defending himself, where he's technically correct but I don't get a read out of him, but which I definitely wouldn't vote him for.