Open 805 Panic Room Day 1
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Hey, Salsabil is missing some context.
@Salsabil, Skitter30 (the other head of this hydra, Dumber) is a highly reputed player and scary slot to roll scum against.
She also has had a high read rate (100% I think) on Lilith's alignment games they've played together previously.
What Lilith is arguing is that for scum!Lilith, taking such continuous aggressive stances as scum against a slot that has proved to read her well is a silly, suicidal move.
Leave that aside - even if she did that anyway as a crazy method to get townread, and now that both heads of my slot declare townreads on her... pushing on us in this position is *even sillier* for scum!Lilith to make. I presume she'd rather just stay mum and focus elsewhere, kill us off N1, and coast off our read on her if she was scum.
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i think you're reading too much into the 'ignoring' thing, and that you're ascribing meaning to it that i did notIn post 1173, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:I feel like this whole skitter thing is trying to make it seem like I ignored her and then attacked you, but I didn’t even talk about or to you for like 10 hours of being in the thread - I was interacting with infinity and gamma, and your slot was nowhere near top of mind for me. I made myself drop it because I admitted that my interactions with you were based on a misunderstanding, and then moved on to other things.
i also think my above post largely addresses 1165, but let me know if i missed anything
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right, this + the conviction you have on this point is what ultimately changed my mindIn post 1190, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:not only that, but in order to scumread me you have to believe that after skitter and auro backed off me, that I am willingly, repeatedly, poking and prodding and antagonizing them instead of just letting them townread me. how on earth do you think this is a strategy that scum!me takes with respect to a town!dumb and dumber. how????
either you're blind or you're scum.
- Daenerys
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technically it says that town going against *scum* me is a death sentenceIn post 1235, Gamma Emerald wrote:Skitter's own sig says going up against her is a death sentence
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this is fairIn post 1238, Infinity 324 wrote:Honestly the fact that it took you so long to get there is making me paranoid. And the way the interaction started up and stopped and started up again makes me feel like it's not TvT, but I'm not sure. SvT interactions tend to progress weirdly like that sometimes
i think the start-stop has more to do with irl things (and trying to play a zen game from both heads) than anythign else tho
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he's another player who i often play withIn post 1293, Salsabil Faria wrote:In post 1260, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:In post 694, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:however, as mena once said, skitter is a bad D1 elim. I’m not really interested in pursuing their elimination today, but I’m very much not convinced that they’re town. when I get back I’ll try to be more involved in sorting other slots for today’s elim.What is 'mena'?
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hope you're ok <3In post 1327, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:Hey I'm around but I'm feeling like shit because I got some bad news (nothing serious just really frustrating) so yeah. I still need to read the last few pages.
-Dragons
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i think i have a decently strong poe, and i'm kinda happy to wagon anybody outside of itIn post 1171, notscience wrote:
we have less than two days left and i like the mc vote so i'm p good there
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maybe i'm wrong but i legimately don't remember townreading lilith anytime recently. maybe in like super early game but i don't remember townreading her around the her/auro thing or anytime after that; i'm p sure i scumread that whole interaction on her end until like yesterday
and lilith r.e. 1346
- i'm not sure that the read was like 'dependant' on how you approach me in general, but in a hydra in particular, me and auro felt that scum-you would go out of your way to avoid interacting with me cuz it would be easier for you to interact with auro. usually i'm not in a hydra so i don't think comparing this game to others is a strictly apples-apples comparison here. if i wasn't in a hydra i don't think that thoguht would have crossed my mind
- and ig i just said the second point. i'll look again but i'm p sure i havn't said that but maybe i'm like misremembering badly because i don't remember townreading you post-early game so i just don't know and don't have an answer without going back and checking, so let me do that- Dumb and Dumber
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i'm p sure this was roughly around the last time i remember townreading herIn post 423, Dumb and Dumber wrote:tbf i kinda agree with u on cakez
but lilith is townie for her! (i think!)
(or at least her activity last night was)
so for now i feel good on the slot
i like gc votes!
fwiw i think if he's scum he's probably (?) not the bomb
shadowslug i think ur being really townie too
~ skitter
lilith, you felt v weird in your thing with auro and that's where it kinda disippated, and i didn't get it back until like skimming yesterday/today upon seeing how much conviction you had with gamma, about how you approach me, how much emotion is bleeding into your posts, etc
i don't think i said i townread you in between really. and like i don't really remember this happening so maybe you guys can quote where you think i said that?
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honestly i dont' remember. i don't know and don't really ahve an answer, i'm sorryIn post 1351, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:here is the second time you said you townread me, which is what I'm referring to (and this is after me vs. auro):In post 647, Dumb and Dumber wrote:Lilith <3
I hope ur ok
(On a game note i probably disagree with auro and am leaning town on you)
~ skitter
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it was more of a generic 'i don't think you would be antagnozing us in general' vs 'i don't think you would be antaganozing us specifically after i townread you'In post 1352, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:
if you don't think you said you townread me, then how can you agree with me that I was antagonizing you after you said you townread me?In post 1337, Dumb and Dumber wrote:
right, this + the conviction you have on this point is what ultimately changed my mindIn post 1190, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:not only that, but in order to scumread me you have to believe that after skitter and auro backed off me, that I am willingly, repeatedly, poking and prodding and antagonizing them instead of just letting them townread me. how on earth do you think this is a strategy that scum!me takes with respect to a town!dumb and dumber. how????
either you're blind or you're scum.
- Daenerys
~ skitter
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( i skimmed a lot in the past couple of days and kinda like got the gist but didn't necessasrily catch every word)
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i feel like i addressed point 1)
i don't super follow what you're trying to say with 2) but i'll try:
at post 1131 i was reiterating that i wasn't townreading you and that i thought the way you were approaching us was scummy
i later changed my mind upon seeing your interaction with gamma; that was kinda the key thing that changed my mind
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i know, i read very fast sometimes (esp. when skimming) and sometimes skip words (and sometimes important words)In post 1357, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:? it's stated in the original post you responded to- Dumb and Dumber
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it felt like you were trying to draw out the auro thing a bit when he was trying to disengage, adn that you were calling him scummy for trying to disengage, and that you didn't want to engage with my headIn post 1356, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:again, I was already antagonizing you plenty before you said you didn't townread me, so what changed between then and now?
then the emotion in the gamma stuff outweighed that- Dumb and Dumber
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basically a lot of how we were reading you was around how you were engaging with us
we thought you'd try to avoid me and try to pick fights with auro as scum
but you're now picking a fight with me (which you werent' doing before, that's part of the difference), and loudly and actively not-townreading me. and i dont' think you take that route as scum.
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this was antagonizing *us*, not me. you're now antagonizing me. that's a large part of the differenceIn post 1356, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:again, I was already antagonizing you plenty before you said you didn't townread me, so what changed between then and now?- Dumb and Dumber
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cuz it looked like how you would approach us as scumIn post 1361, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:uh... yes, this is all true. is there a reason my explanations for why these things happened weren't satisfactory?
the fact that you *could* approach that way as town didn't negate the fact that it was also fairly likely to come from scum - you in this context- Dumb and Dumber
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i hadn't felt like you'd broken out of the ceiling of your emotional scumrange at that point yet; that didn't happen until gamma + you now scumreading meIn post 1366, lilith2013 wrote:
can you explain this post?In post 1134, Dumb and Dumber wrote:
i can't, no (i.e. i don't ahve an example)In post 1132, Infinity 324 wrote:Can you link me a game where scum!lilith showed this level of proactiveness or emotion
but she's not quite feeling like town-lilith to me yet either and i'm currently trying to figure out what i make of that
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- Daenerys
and i don't think that town-you is scared of engaging with me
i think that scum-you is a little bit and would actively avoid doing so if possible (sorry), and taht's what your game looked like until recently
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honestly i think the expediency of the read taht game was kinda a fluke. i think i can read you accurately with enough posts, but not off of like 3 posts on a regular basis.In post 1369, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:and I'd also like to bring up that you've been able to read me perfectly fine in the past with minimal engagement, and here I spent several days interacting with other people where you should have been able to observe my play. why does the possibility that this is how scum!me approaches your slot outweigh the rest of my play in this game?
- Daenerys
a lot of it is trying to gauge your activity and engagement and how much energy you have and where you're spending it. most of what you were posting felt kinda flat, and somewhat through-the-motions-y to a certain extent. the auro/you thing also very much through me off
you kinda broke through what i imagine the ceiling of your scumrange to be, so now i townread you
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sorry i'm not sure what you're asking by 'what gave you the impresion that i was scared of engaging with you' - we both agree that scum-you avoids town-me, right? i'm not really sure what sort of elaboration you're looking for here.In post 1372, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:I don't disagree, I think everyone who knows me/you is on the same page about how I would deal with rolling scum (avoid as much as possible, kill as fast as possible)
what gave you the impression that I was scared of engaging with you?
what do you mean by "emotional scumrange"?
- Daenerys
also for the 'emotional scumrange' bit: we've talked abt this - you're very flat as scum, you go through the motions, you ask incidental questions with no followthrough. there isn't really any emotional connection to the game really. you aren't invested, you aren't convicted, and you just don't *care* as much. you're done all three of the latter now, so i townread you. your early game kinda looked like the former, so i didn't then.- Dumb and Dumber
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what part?In post 1373, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:
would also like some more explanation on thisIn post 1371, Dumb and Dumber wrote:a lot of it is trying to gauge your activity and engagement and how much energy you have and where you're spending it. most of what you were posting felt kinda flat, and somewhat through-the-motions-y to a certain extent. the auro/you thing also very much through me off
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Spoiler:
posts like these ^
and idk i feel like town-you usually engages with me? and the fact that you didn't was strange and notable? like i think by default you'd engage with me in some way?
and infinity the auro/lilith thing i was discounting because it was ate-y and largely driven by irl things, it seemed, didn't really seem like her alignemnt had much to do with it. like it was nai and she was having a bad day. coudlnt' read into that really
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they felt to me like examples of you interacting with the game via incidental questions that felt kinda meh and like like you were forcing yourself to engage (this is basically my model of prototypical scum-lilith, and what you were doing in c9++)In post 1381, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:what about these posts said "scum-indicative" to you?
you're kinda conflating different things i was saying about differnet parts of the game - at that point i felt like you were doing the vague incidental questions bit, at other points i felt like you were trying to interact with auro more than me, which was highlighted when you didn't respond to my posts trying to engage with youIn post 1381, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:but.. I did engage with you, I asked you and penguin about your reads on each other, which you've quoted in the posts you listed as scummy
wut? i literally just said that it seemed scummy to me but i was actiavely not reading into it was probably for irl reasons. i feel like that whole episode should be considered nai.In post 1381, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:so when I do something towny, it can be explained away by my oog state but when I do something "scummy," it can't...?
i'm not sure how you came to this conclusion/accusation when i literally just said the exact opposite
we both felt like you were looking for reasons to scumread auro, and weren't trying to engage with him to sort himIn post 1381, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:what was scummy about my reaction?
and that you way overreacted and made a mountain out of a molehill
(auro really disliked that interaction and has actively been trying to avoid another such one, and i think that's where a lot of the 'weird auro' vibes are coming from)
again, i legitimately don't remember what i was thinking at the time, so i can't. like i just don't know. i'm not trying to avoid the question, but i don't have an answerIn post 1381, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:gain, you clearly said you were leaning town on me after me vs. auro, so you're going to have to explain how this post lines up with you now saying you were scumreading me for it the whole time.
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i mean i also feel like this is going around in circles and isn't really going anywhere, but i felt like it was important to try to answer at least
i also feel like it's a little bit unfair to say, however, that you knew that this is how it was going to go and that's why you chose not to engage. i don't think this is the default way we usually engage really
to me this detail was possibly the most important part in trying to form a read on you. i recognize that you have a lot of other content, but that's the lens i was viewing the game through.
at this point i townread you so i'm not sure how much more we're gonna get out of this but :shrug:
like i'm trying to give you what you're looking for to ahve a read on me
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lilithIn post 1386, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:I don’t really feel like you have a leg to stand on in saying me ignoring you seemed scum-indicative. asking me “is there anything you want to talk about” and my not having a response is like.... it’s not like you were actively asking me questions about the game and about my reads and I was avoiding responding. I’d said multiple times that I just didn’t have anything that I wanted to ask you about, but that doesn’t mean that I was scummily avoiding you. I just... didn’t have anything that I wanted to ask you about. And you seemed to not be taking my words at face value, as if I must have an ulterior motive.
that's literally exactly how scum-you goes abt it tho. i can't just ignore the fact that you're interacting with my slot the way scum-you does like 95/100 times just because town-you might also.
you're also reducing several instances of you interacting with auro over me to 'well i just didn't respond that one time'; it was a pattern that had happened several times over several irl days, it wasn't jsut that one instance.
if this isn't gonna help u get a read on me, that's fine. we don't have to continue talking abt it- Dumb and Dumber
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tbf i'm also not feeling super engaged rn eitherIn post 1389, Infinity 324 wrote:When I played with scum!skitt in silent star 3, I had the same experience of her having good arguments, but there was a strong gut feeling she was scum there. I don't get the same feeling here, but she wasn't as engaged/motivated because she didn't enjoy the setup so I'm not sure what to think. Maybe a more motivated scum!skitt could watch how her posts come off better?- Dumb and Dumber
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lilith - i see your post but i'm kinda running out of energy again, i'm sorry :/
i will also say that i agree with gamma that this probably isn't really super helpful tbh. i don't think either slot is getting flipped in the next 36 hours so maybe let's just put a pin in it and circle back if required tomorrow
if responding to that post is very important i'll do my best to do so before eod but otherwise let's maybe drop it for a bit
gc - MURDERKITTY, gamma
you/yyotta are my lower-tier townreads but i don't wnat to go there today- Dumb and Dumber
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yeah to clarify i may have written this a bit confusingly - i mean to say that i have a very strong townpool, and that i'm willing to vote anybody i don't trIn post 1394, Green Crayons wrote:
what's your poe?In post 1342, Dumb and Dumber wrote:i think i have a decently strong poe, and i'm kinda happy to wagon anybody outside of it
so like rn i think i'd only vote MURDERKITTY or gamma, and i prefer the former
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i will endeavor to do soIn post 1405, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:I agree that this conversation was unproductive and that’s why I didn’t really want to bother in the first place. would like skitter and auro to respond to 1393 at some point.
beyond that I really don’t have much else on my to do list.
- Daenerys
youIn post 1406, PenguinPower wrote:SkitteR...
Top town reads pls - just like your top 3-4 would be good.
salsa
lilith's slot
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infinity
gc
yyotta
catboi
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MURDERKITTY
gamma
tiers look roughly like this ^.
don't really want to flip nm either- Dumb and Dumber
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Well if the choices are bomb-gamma or goon-mc gamma is ultimately going to fold and vote mc, right?
He was obviously p reluctant to get on mc at all
Also @mena i have a p strong townpool and gamma never was townie, so he was p firmly outside of it. And i dislike his interactions with mc/mc's wagon, in that he tried to avoid it for a p long time
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Echoing lilith - did anyone in particular strike you as being in that position?In post 1483, Menalque wrote:Idk my inclination is that scum hardbussed for cred to get into panic room, but that’s purely based on VCs and knowing my own alignment
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Issok, I do that so many times >.> another benefit to the whole zen thing for me personallyIn post 1479, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:@skitter and auro I’m really really sorry about D1. I think I got myself stuck in kill mode and couldn’t get myself out. And that’s probably the best way to describe why I felt so off. I think you guys are probably just town though.
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And where does that lead you? I'd rather we talked about that first, rather than about Gamma.In post 1488, Infinity 324 wrote:I want to look at the people who were shading murder but voting gamma instead, I'm thinking maybe scum felt that gamma would be harder to push as a miselim once murder flipped scum.
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I look forward to your conclusions/case(s) after re-reading. Sooner, the betterIn post 1501, Infinity 324 wrote:Idk I need to reread
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In my experience, Gamma isn't exactly a very co-operative scum player.In post 1501, Infinity 324 wrote:PEdit: I don't see why scum!gamma was defending murder while his partner was bussing. I don't get what he was trying to achieve.
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Nope, we should avoid it.In post 1510, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:not sure if we should be trying to discuss the nk - @d&d do you guys think this is a useful discussion to have?
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<3In post 1479, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:@skitter and auro I’m really really sorry about D1. I think I got myself stuck in kill mode and couldn’t get myself out. And that’s probably the best way to describe why I felt so off. I think you guys are probably just town though.
I’m not particularly townreading gamma’s slot but I think gc trying to make a gamma wagon possible at eod was kinda suspicious.
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why do you think we're town now tho?
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In post 1481, Menalque wrote:
Okay, well I can’t answer for gamma and I haven’t read yet but I willIn post 1474, Dumb and Dumber wrote:Also @mena i have a p strong townpool and gamma never was townie, so he was p firmly outside of it. And i dislike his interactions with mc/mc's wagon, in that he tried to avoid it for a p long time
Like I don’t ur logic but I would like to hear more on who is particularly towny and why
Although I’d actually prob rather hear after I read up to see if we sync or not
this is from my eod yestserdayIn post 1412, Dumb and Dumber wrote:you
salsa
lilith's slot
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infinity
gc
yyotta
catboi
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MURDERKITTY
gamma
tiers look roughly like this ^.
don't really want to flip nm either
salsa - strongest townread; the iso-reads she's done on a few slots now are ridiculously +++town, she has an element of guileness that i really like, she just screams newbtown
lilith's slot - the emotion in bickering with gamma + how she picked a fight with me eod yesterday, probably town, probably otu of her scumrange (i'm a bit less confident than i was yesterday, i will say)
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infinity - with the murder scum flip and infinity's defense of him i want to put him in the bottom category tbh. i don't remember why i was townreading him anymore
gc - liked his stubborness on his shadow read (not the initial read, but rather how he persisted and explained it when i kept pushing back). not as strong a townread as the above but town enough for now
yyotta - also getting newbtown vibes. weaker read than the other townreads
catboi - i really liked shadowslug, and htought he was very, very townie. i don't have much thought on catboi's iteration of the slot tbh
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gamma - literally never got townvibes from him, hated his half of the lilith/gamma thing
murderkitty - flipped scum! i'm happy i caught that one
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nm - nm
that's kinda where i'm at. want to focus on lesser townreads / people i don't townread today
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ok but that would have to be, like, us thoIn post 1483, Menalque wrote:Idk my inclination is that scum hardbussed for cred to get into panic room, but that’s purely based on VCs and knowing my own alignment
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lilith why are you voting gc?
infinity's positioning rn kinda looks like partners with gamma and mc but i'm not sure, if he's partners with gamma and mc, that he actually posititions himself this way, if that makes sense
my vibes from eod gamestate is that gamma's slot + MURDERKITTY were both scum tbh.
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ty lilith!
makes sense that you want to give gamma('s slot) some space in that context
would you be able to provide a couple of posts demonstrating where you think gc was supporting MURDERKITTY earlier in the day and where you think he awkwardly avoided it? i'm not sure i quite remember either of those things happening but i was kinda out of it for the last few irl days of yesterday so very possible i missed things
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well it would have been good play if we flipped town-gamma yesterday instead, i think is what she's sayingIn post 1523, Green Crayons wrote:under that theory, i would have helped build the momentum on my scum teammate and then abandoned right at the fork-in-the-road between MC and Gamma, which is pretty bad play imo
i do think that 'supporting the MC elim even when voting gamma' is actually +MC-parter, rather than underming you being a potential partner tho, especially since you're pulling this out as a reason to read the two of you as not-partners
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sorry these were the ones i was looking for, to clarify ^In post 1528, Daenerys and Dragons wrote:I still think the switch to gamma at the end of the day was kinda weird though (and like, my first reaction to those posts were "egh these words are awkward" and not "oh yay someone joining me on wagon")
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basically scum want to look like they're supporting the scum-wagon (saying they support it) without *actually* supporting the scum wagon (actually voting)In post 1530, Green Crayons wrote:
This doesn’t make sense to me but also I don’t particularly care. There’s a small pool of potential MC buds, I acknowledge I’m potentially one of them, and towns gotta make it through the list.In post 1526, Dumb and Dumber wrote:i do think that 'supporting the MC elim even when voting gamma' is actually +MC-parter, rather than underming you being a potential partner tho, especially since you're pulling this out as a reason to read the two of you as not-partners
it's a p classic partner-play, esp by later referencing it - they want to look like they supported it and get teh cred for it without actually doing so
but the second half of this post is kinda despite that imo
why do u think catboi is townie?
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