New York 138: OxyMoron Mafia :: Game Over!

[fatlikepig]

Howdy y'all! I'll be doing some reading tonight an tomorrow afternoon (GMT 10, so bear with me). Since it seems to be a matter of urgency right now, could anyone fill me in on the Johhog BW? I'm sure I'll get to it eventually, but it seems that a lot of you are eager to end this day.

[fatlikepig]

Oh, and /confirm, ofc.

[fatlikepig]

Phone post.

Still reading through the thread. Finding a lot of it be rather pointless though (seriously, that argument about whether or not Johhog had gone to sleep? Seriously guys?), so part of me is tempted to just skim over the thread and give greater weighting to the stuff that's posted from here on in. I'll try to keep readin though.

Johhogs promises without delivery to claim seem off to me. Surely if he's a town PR (which Im assuming he's trying to softclaim by describing himself a unlynchable), he'll have marked himself with a huge target by now to the scum for the NK, so it shouldn't matter anyway.

I'll answer those questions when I get to an actual keyboard.

[fatlikepig]

I'm going to try something:

1: Why do you play Mafia?

Because I'm bored. Also as a mind-training type exercise, I guess.

2: How old are you?

However old you want me to be.

3: How would you describe your general thought process?

I like to think about things from other peoples' perspectives.

4: What is your time-zone?

GMT +10

5: How do you approach unique problems in need of solution?

Use a combination of previous experience and ingenuity. Mostly previous experience, actually.

6: What is your favorite precious metal, and why?

Gold!

7: How would you approach this game as town?

Scumhunt as much as possible, try to stay active, don't let anyone sway you too easily.

8: How would you approach this game as scum?

Pretend to do things when you actually aren't.

9: What is your gender?

Male

10: Are you nervous?

Not... particularly, no.

11: What is your experience level?

I'd call myself still quite the newbie.

12: What are your strongest emotions?

Anger. Lots of it.

13: What's your general activity level?
I try to stay active, real life has other plans for me though.

14: What is your plan in this game?

Do the things I said I'd do as town.

15: Which do you prefer: RVS, RQS, or other? (If Other, please explain.)

RVS

16: Do you have a reputation? What for?

Nope.

17: Do you prefer playing as town, scum, or other? (If Other, please explain.)

In general, scum. Deception is fun!

18: What are your favorite three roles?

Ooh, toughie. Goon, Roleblocker and Town Cop would be my three, I guess.

19: What order are those favorite roles in?

Roleblocker, Goon, Town Cop.

20: What is your stance on lurkers?

Lurking is a null read to me, but it still annoys the crap out of me. Active lurking is an entirely different matter though.

21: How do you plan on catching scum?

Read between the lines. Ask questions.

22: What do these questions mean to you?

I love answering questionnaires. Also, I can see how some of these might be useful for scumhunting, though I'm wary that answers can be twisted and turned to suit one's purposes.

23: What is the airspeed velocity of a coconut-laden swallow?

...I'll get back to you on that one

24: You see someone waving their arms and directing you to go right. How do you respond?

Walk over to them and wave back. Preferably with a goofy smile on my face.

[fatlikepig]

Wait, he's not dead? That changes things, considering I think that his rage when he thought he was lynched makes him seem like obvtown to me.

[fatlikepig]

There might've been Lord Chronos and LTP Mafia town-reads, but I'm less certain on them.

Wait, LTP-Mafia's only ever posted once, and that was to confirm. Are you sure you aren't confusing yourself?

well that was fucking stupid

What was?

[fatlikepig]

Vote: Otolia

Can we have more infos on this lewarcher wagon ? I am ready to vote for him even without infos since he is not playing anymore but Oversoul did let us know he had infos.

I think this post is just odd. It's like, "Hey, can I role/readfish first before I place my vote on lewarcher? Because, you know, I'm willing to do it anyway, but I'm not going to."
Why didn't you vote on him if you were ready and then hear the info? It's not like anything was barring you from doing that anyway.

I'd also like to note these three posts:

So you are basically saying that we need to dawn the game without us caring about who we lynch ?

I think it's fairly obvious that this is negatively worded. He's just replaced in (his replacement "howdy" post is on the same page), and he sees this post. So he responds to it. Then, theoretically, he sees that everyone's doing exactly that, so he comes up with:

I am not saying it's a bad idea, but I want to be sure it was his thought.

1. The way the question is worded carries these connotations. "Without caring about who we lynch"? Sounds very much like an accusation of being scummy to me.
2. It's fairly obvious that that was indeed his thought. The question looks like a poor attempt to cover his mistake up.

I would have propose it sooner or later anyway.

The idea of lynching Johhog to go to night had already been proposed anyway. This just sounds like an overcompensation for the mistake made earlier.

I'm ready to end the day but why first I need to do a small ISO of johnhog to see if it's that obvious.

This never happened.

[fatlikepig]

EBWOP: Two posts. I had seen a third post that might have been of use, but I think it just reiterates things already stated.

[fatlikepig]

I did the ISO for myself, and I didn't feel like posting them because it wouldn't have matters anyway.

Why not?

I'm not investigating someone so that you can see it ...

wut

Surely if you come to some sort of conclusion, then sharing it would be beneficial to the town? This seems very scummy.

Otherwise, mistake ? Where is this 'mistake' ?

When you posed your very negatively worded question at hoppster, then read back in the thread, and then realised that everyone was doing exactly what he did, and then proceeding to backflip completely on your original stance.

[fatlikepig]

I don't think you are based on the last 10 pages but at this point we need to get going. Any D1 scumtell is now drawn into the abyss of flood.

Evidently you made some sort of useful conclusion.

Why was it the sole responsible thing to do? You acknowledged that you thought he was probably town, and by logical extension, a vig. Isn't that irresponsible?

[fatlikepig]

If Lew is indeed scum, I think we will find at least one of his partner(s) among those who didn't join Oversoul's bandwagon -- bvoigt, fatlikepig, mastin2, and me. I know I'm not scum and I'm pretty confident of my town-read on bvoigt. Both fatlikepig and mastin2 have manifested some scumminess.

Why? Oversoul basically went, "HEY, LET'S VOTE FOR LEW OK?" I think there's valid reasons to not hop on a BW like that.

[fatlikepig]

@Ironhead: Do you still think Otolia is scummy? Does him stating that he was willing to vote for Lew earn him town-cred from your POV?

I disagree with the wagon having scum on it. I think town are just as likely to join a wagon with a decent case/reasoning behind it as they were the one led on Lew (before Oversoul's claim, mind you). I take your point about it being easier for scum to join Otolia's BW, but a) I don't see anything that necessitates that being the case and b) it's just as hard as town (at least personally) to join a wagon that has little reason behind it.

I'm also not entirely inclined to believe that scum wouldn't bus their partners in this situation. As you said, it probably earns them town cred, and also, since Lew hasn't bothered posting, he's really just dead weight. Why not bus him and earn some town points while you're at it, instead of trying to defend him/avoid associating with him? Given that they managed to get us to kill a Vig yesterday, I'm not entirely sure that scum wouldn't have the confidence going into today to do something like that.

Oh, and since he's claimed Gunsmith, I guess it's fair enough to do this (though I'm somewhat wary of the fact that this could out another PR):

Unvote Vote: Lewarcher

[fatlikepig]

Oh, right. Oops, that's stupid.

I think I meant lynch. o.o

[fatlikepig]

How is that a scumslip?

[fatlikepig]

Just FTR, I realise that outing and lynching are different terms. It was an easy mistake for me to make, considering I was thinking about Oversoul outing himself, the fact that another PR may have been outed, etc.

The Gunsmith isn't a guilty though. Lew could be scum, but he could also be cop/vig/another gunsmith/some other PR with a gun, and given that he hasn't posted, there's no way to tell either way. Considering we've already lynched Johhog, I'm quite wary of lynching another important PR today. Though I can see that the lynching to confirm Oversoul / possibly hit scum could be good for us.

I get the fact that scum want to out PRs, but I don't see how that applies in that case, even if we are to take it as being what I meant to say. Unless you're talking about scum getting overexcited and just dropping it into their post by accident, which just seems silly.

[fatlikepig]

I had no idea that it's non-standard to not get a claim on D2. I don't have that much (well, any at all really) experience with large setups, so you'll have to pardon the newbie mistake.

I have a feeling that I'm not going to get anywhere with this scumslip business. I'm now having to argue from the point of "Well, if that was actually what I had meant to say, then I would thought x", which I'm not really able to do, since I get confused trying to make up some perspective I have to look from.

Do what you will with it, keep in mind that I maintain that it was a simple mistake in wording.

[fatlikepig]

This is worse! I expect a townie to defend himself, especially if he legitimately believes that the case on him is weak. Your "no contest" plea looks like you're waiting for the whole thing to blow over and everyone to forget.

How on earth do you expect me to defend myself when the case being leveled against me is "Hey, you said x when you really wanted to say y, but just for the sake of things, can you just pretend you wanted to say x instead?"? I'd defend myself if I know that something I said could be taken as a scumslip, but there's no scumslip to defend.

Coincidentally, you also meet my criteria for having NOT VOTED lewarcher when it mattered. You also hopped on Otolia's bandwagon after bvoigt and I ginned it up. You, sir, are scum.

You know, hopped on it and also added to it (or at least attempted to add to it) by questioning Otolia on stuff that hadn't been brought up.

So did redFF, by the way. Are you going to ask him about it too?

How does lynching lewarcher strengthen your case on me?

[fatlikepig]

But that is not the case against you! No one is saying "can you just pretend you wanted to say x instead?" By claiming that this is the case against you, you are strawmanning.

So what, pray tell, is the case on me?

[fatlikepig]

Hey Oversoul, you should investigate me. I'd like to prove Ironhead wrong, y'know?

So, Ironhead, I'd like you to keep in mind that I've been MAINTAINING THAT I SIMPLY USED THE WRONG WORD FROM THE GET-GO. I haven't been able to defend myself because I have nothing to defend myself /with/ - I made a mistake with my word usage because I had other things going on in my head, that's it. I'd love to be able to tell you why that's not a scumslip, but really all it boils down to is "I didn't mean to say that." Which is not much to work with.

and then you dismiss it with an Appeal to Ridicule ("...just seems silly."). Appeal to Ridicule is an Appeal to Emotion. AtE is a scumtell.

You're correct in saying that I meant that it was a mistake that townies could make (and then go on to explain why I happened to make that very mistake). I didn't mean to dismiss /that/, I meant to question the idea that scum would accidentally slip just because they get a hard-on from having the choice of 2 PRs to kill at night. I suppose that's why legit scumslips (

N.B. Legit

) rarely happen, because quite frankly, I find that kind of odd.

More AtE. Preemptive surrender looks scummy -- a townie would keep fighting the accusation, using logic to rebut the case (because, if you were a townie, the logic would exist as you would know that you aren't scum; scum, on the other hand, cannot rely on logic because the accusation is true).

I've already explained why I can't defend myself with any more than "that's not what I meant to say". What more do you want from me?

Also, I didn't catch this on my first read: "...I get confused trying to make up some perspective I have to look from." Come again? Which role has to make up a perspective to look from? This seems like a much more damning scum-slip (as scum have to make up the perspective of a townie during the day).

I felt like I was being asked to defend myself from the perspective of, "Well, if you had meant to say x, then why is it still not a scumslip?".

Deflection. Trying to get us to chase redFF instead of him.

No, I feel that's a genuine inconsistency. redFF was suspicious to a lot of people yesterday, he did the same thing as me, and yet you simply ignored it.

And that's just the case built on your scum-slip. There's also the problem of your voting behavior -- redFF and I unwittingly created an alternate bandwagon to the lewarcher wagon, and you hopped on it before Oversoul claimed gunsmith. If lewarcher flips scum, it appears you wanted to derail his wagon so you could lynch Otolia instead.

You know, when I joined the BW before redFF, mmkay

So, for the final time

HOPPING ON A BANDWAGON THAT HAS REASONING BEHIND IT IS A REASONABLE THING TO DO AS TOWN

AVOIDING A BANDWAGON THAT HAD NOTHING BEHIND IT IS A REASONABLE THING TO DO AS TOWN

WAITING UNTIL OVERSOUL GAVE HIS EVIDENCE BEFORE SWITCHING YOUR VOTE OVER IS A REASONABLE THING TO DO

EXCCCCUUUUUSE ME IF I WANT TO VOTE FOR PEOPLE I FIND SCUMMY

Oversoul shows a little prevarication in #1227, and you egg him on.

Well, I'm sorry if I also happen to be worried about lynching another PR today.

[fatlikepig]

I doubt it. Empking is being skeptical -- which is pro-town

oic, when I'm skeptical it's scummy, when Emp does it it's pro-town.

k.

[fatlikepig]

WHAT OMGUS

[fatlikepig]

Vote: Otolia

He should claim now, if I'm not mistaken.

[fatlikepig]

Got anything for us Oversoul?

Also @Xeras:

WHAT OMGUS

[fatlikepig]

ಠ_ಠ

[fatlikepig]

Well, I know I'm town, but I'm not sure that Ironhead is scum either. His voting pattern on Day 2 seems quite uncharacteristic of scum, and I'm not really getting anything that screams scum atm.

[fatlikepig]

Apparently it's a meta thing.

Will read up on that tomorrow when I have time to.

[fatlikepig]

Oversoul, why do you think me vs Ironhead is necessarily town v scum, rather than town v town?

[fatlikepig]

^

This inactivity is quite the issue.

Also, Xeras, my question. please.

[fatlikepig]

um ok.

[fatlikepig]

Yep, Ironhead's latest post sounds forced to me too. It's trying too hard to say "Well I know it's scummy but I'm going to submit it anyway because it's protown and I'm so protown." Though I don't know what to make of it, seeing as I'm still unconvinced that Ironhead is overly scummy.

Vote: Xeras

/That's/ the OMGUS? I don't know how you managed to interpret it that way, but I think it's perfectly clear that it's just pointing out an inconsistency with his case on me. Sounds like you're trying to cover up an opportunistic BW to me.

[fatlikepig]

Why is everyone uppity about Mastin? His activity is about on par with a lot of other people...

I think it's because he promised analysis and then didn't deliver. Don't promise something if you can't follow through and all that good shit.

I'm not particularly bothered by it though.

[fatlikepig]

Projectmatt, I assume your vote is based off the me vs Ironhead thing. If that's the case, why do you think me vs him is necessarily town v scum?

[fatlikepig]

Or, you know, you could join the wagon on Xeras, who is actually objectively scummy. Since you've decided to blindly hop on wagons, apparently.

No-one's managed to explain to me why me vs Ironhead is town v scum. I still don't get it.

[fatlikepig]

Because he's trying to wiggle his way out of an opportunistic bandwagon by saying, "Well, I thought your post implied x even though it only serves purpose y, but I can't stop thinking that it's x, y'know?" Weak as hell.

Also because if he legitimately thought it was scummy, then he'd still be voting for me today. For some reason, he decided to put his vote on someone for something that's not even a scumtell (suggesting that faction affects play more than your role within that faction).

[fatlikepig]

Atta boy.

[fatlikepig]

Yep. I don't think, considering that he's been here since the start of the game, that Xeras has contributed much at all. That an his vote switch was weird as hell.

[fatlikepig]

Sorry Mr Mod. D:

I still feel unsure about Ironhea. I'll take some more time to digest this all later, but I think Matt is the better lynch.

Vote: projectmatt

[fatlikepig]

I think there was some talk about there being a neighbourhood QT when hiplop claimed, Ironhead. At least, that's what I think he's talking about.

[fatlikepig]

Okay, so by that info FF is either conftown or there are two scumteams. Right?

[fatlikepig]

Oversoul, if Ironhead flips scum, I want you to investigate me.

[fatlikepig]

VOTE: Projectmatt

Posts from yesterday and Irons flip make you obvscum.

[fatlikepig]

Also baffling is the fact that I was apparently scum yesterday, yet I'm conftown to you today.

[fatlikepig]

I was thinking more along the lines of a PGO, actually. Dunno though.

[fatlikepig]

Wanting to make some sense about DX's talk about Indy/Scum earlier in the thread. Leaves out SK from his list of 3rd Party Roles, which is odd because SK is the first one that comes to mind. Little thing, though

David should claim. I think mastin's list is pretty good.

[fatlikepig]

Nope. Not Oversoul.

He's not scum because he was roleblocked (and atm I'm inclined to believe Thor's claim). I'm not inclined to believe he's SK due to his accurate result on lewarcher; if SK was to guess, then he had virtually nothing pointing to him being scum.

Noting DX's earlier comment about my scumslip. I find it odd that he kind of just left it alone after Ironhead took it up and started questioning me about it. Suggests SK watching town/scum (or basically just two players) arguing, which would ultimately lead to a lynch.

[fatlikepig]

Proddodge

Also, didn't we say something earlier about redFF's reactions to being investigated didn't speak of someone who knew that OS was being roleblocked? He said things like, "Why did you investigate me" and later relied on OS's check as his defence, things I don't think scum would have done. His interactions with Otolia/Ironhead also don't seem to line up with scum.

[fatlikepig]

1. Empking

2. Xeras

Probably not scum since Iron was pushing his lynch pretty hard.

3. mastin2

4. Nobody Special Vifam

5. Thor665 Lady Lambadelta BomberMan

6. David Xanatos

7. Oversoul

8. fatlikepig LTP Mafia

9. evilpacman18

10. redFF

I don't get why EPM is conftown.

[fatlikepig]

Although rereading, his vote on Iron makes him unlikely to be scum.

[fatlikepig]

VOTE: DX

L-1 choo choo

What are the chances of scum watcher?

[fatlikepig]

tracker

i meant tracker >.<

[fatlikepig]

Have we considered that the SK could potentially be X-shot? May explain the lack of two NKs early on in the game.

I'm slightly unconvinced of there being five mafia, four plus SK already seems pretty weighted against the town. I realise that we had awesome PRs, but even so I have trouble believing that there needs to be so much counterbalance.

If two teams still exist, though, scum may not be killing to avoid NK WIFOM or to slip under the radar while we go SK hunting. Or tet could be hitting protective roles, which is still possible.

[fatlikepig]

And why might that be?

[fatlikepig]

And not thinking there's any mafia left.

Why does that make me the SK?

If I were SK, I would want town to think there were mafia. It's not something I could see the actual SK disputing.

[fatlikepig]

Oversoul, why check mastin? Wasn't it fairly clear he wasn't mafia?

[fatlikepig]

So, I get that EPM is confnotmafia, but why is he not SK?

[fatlikepig]

Oh, right.

Oversoul, you still haven't told us what purpose your failed gambit was intended to serve.

[fatlikepig]

Yeah, getting a little wary of Thor right now.

No town claim means either Scum tracker or SK tracker, both which seem quite unlikely. I'm not sure lynching him is the best idea though, considering I don't think they're unlikely enough to warrant that.

[fatlikepig]

Though NS lynch still looks good.

VOTE: NS

[fatlikepig]

Except whether or not Thor is scum depends on whether SK-tracker or Scum Tracker exists or not. It's unlikely, but not unlikely enough that I'd risk lynching a Town PR on it.

Also, you said yourself that there were good reasons behind lynching NS. I think they're still perfectly valid, and present a fairly compelling reason to lynch NS.

[fatlikepig]

How is he useless?

[fatlikepig]

Can you expand on this, like, with reasoning and stuffs?

I agree with a fatlikepig lynch.

In fact,

Vote: fatlikepig

Hypocrisy. NS, why are YOU voting for me?

Also, what changed between 1838 and 1841 that got you to vote me? The fact that Oversoul generally supported my lynch?

[fatlikepig]

Mod, the L-x numbers are wrong. I'm at L-2, and everyone else should be at L-4.

It's already been changed. ~ODM

[fatlikepig]

If we're tryin to figure out the setup, should remaining PRs claim?

[fatlikepig]

Oh, OS, I'm not the Tracker. Mass claim sounds good, though.

[fatlikepig]

Claim: Even Night Town Commuter

No commuted first two nights (2, 4) to be open to Gunsmith investigations, commuted last night since its clear we have an SK on the loose.

[fatlikepig]

I don't think that the fact that I'm Even Night is that odd, considering the other even night PR was a vig. Commuter dodging Vig shots? Maybe that was the intention?

Also, Town isn't necessarily overpowered given that we don't know whether or not the SK has a second PR or not. Ninja-SK means he dodges all Investigations. Tracker-SK also makes some sense if Thors claim is legit and we're thinking balance-wise.

[fatlikepig]

Apparently.

Semi V/LA til 10/11 due to exams.

[fatlikepig]

Why has NS disappeared off of your SK list, Mastin?

[fatlikepig]

Well, for one, if Tracker tracks me Night 8, then I'm essentially confirmable, no?

[fatlikepig]

So I see NS is still alive.

Why?

[fatlikepig]

Oh, by the way, NS has been wagon hopping all day.

"Hey, people support a Fat wagon! Let's jump on!" Also note the timing of his vote, which I already pointed out later. I hardly think that it's down to him sheeping.

And then later,

"Hey, Fat wagon's dying! What's this? Some people are suspicious of Oversoul? Better claim that I find him scummy so I can jump on the wagon later!"

[fatlikepig]

I'm not bad, you're just drunk.

[fatlikepig]

@EPM:

Oh, by the way, NS has been wagon hopping all day.

"Hey, people support a Fat wagon! Let's jump on!" Also note the timing of his vote, which I already pointed out later. I hardly think that it's down to him sheeping.

And then later,

"Hey, Fat wagon's dying! What's this? Some people are suspicious of Oversoul? Better claim that I find him scummy so I can jump on the wagon later!"

[fatlikepig]

*shakes fist at Mastin*

I'll flip town, by the way. Good luck.

[fatlikepig]

Nope. I'm actually town. Apologies for being bad, I suppose.

SK is likely redFF given NS's townslip. So, er, lynch him I guess?

[fatlikepig]

Oh, by the way, epm still hasn't claimed his targets. You guys should get around to doing that.

[fatlikepig]

Stop winking at me, dammit.